Israel announces expansion of military operation in Gaza to seize ‘large areas’ of land, ordering residents to leave

Posted by cap123abc@reddit | anime_titties | View on Reddit | 428 comments

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redridingoops@reddit

To the surprise of no one, a country built on land-theft cannot stop stealing land.
Bibi must really not want his trial to ever begin, wonder what country he will annex next.

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That's why we pulled out of Gaza in 2005, it was all an elaborate plot to take Gaza, you got us. On Oct 6th we were praying for Hamas to attack so they could get our chubby fingers on that tiny useless piece of promised land.

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redridingoops@reddit

Israel couldn't keep it back nor was it racist or supported enough to displace or genocide so many people.
Things have changed now haven't they ?

Enjoy your fascist riviera.

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lightmaker918@reddit

I wonder why things have changed, might have something to do with the Gazan leadership insistence on never stopping shooting rockets.

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Kate090996@reddit

So what is the explanation for the west bank?

There wasn't a single rocket from the West bank in decades. Why did you announce the biggest land annexation in the west bank since like the 2000s?

You kidnap children from the west bank, you torture them, fact proven by dozens of associations and NGOs, you eBay them, strip them naked, sexually assault them. You destroy infrastructure in the West bank, you limit their ability to move IN THE west bank with over 800 barriers and checkpoints, you steal their water , their houses, their members of families

They can't even have a job in the west bank because of the checkpoints. You kill them at the checkpoints for no reason whatsoever.

All that before 7th of October

" trust me" lol

Last time I checked, I wasn't defending collective punishment, land annexation, thinking of myself that I was a victim when I was very clearly the abuser and I wasn't part of a country that commits a genocide

I fail to see how I would be worse.

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lightmaker918@reddit

Yes Kate, you who said Arafat was justified in not giving a counter proposal in 2000 peace talks because he should get the entirety of the 67' borders. You who are such a western idealogue who cares more about the deal being to your liking than the mountain of Palestinian and Israeli corpses since the talks broke down.

It's literally useful idiots like you which made Hamas attack from a military disadvantage banking on your pressure to force Israel to stop. Usueful idiots like you who egg on the Palestinians in their delusions that the UN or outside forces will make the Israeli problem go away, instead of negotiating, while our fucking settlers keep expanding. You all are a major part of the problem.

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Kate090996@reddit

Yes Kate, you specifically who said Arafat was justified in not giving a counter proposal in 2000 peace talks because he should get the entirety of the 67' borders.

I did not say that.

the mountain of Palestinian and Israeli corpses since the talks broke down.

That mountain is proportionally made of only one kind of corpses.

You who are such a western idealogue who cares more about the deal being to your liking

You have no fucking clue what I care about, you didn't even ask. What I did is to dispute your claims on these not-accepted deals. Objectively. I very rarely inserted my opinions on it and when I did, I made it clear.

You made it sound like they were just and that Palestinians didn't accept them because they didn't want peace. Which is not true. They were already compromises at the compromise and were being asked for even more compromises.

I always hear from you that Palestinians didn't accept them but never, not even once, not one of you mentioned that they were ridiculous and palestinians were expected to make a shitton of compromises while Israel was asked to just respect the law.

Usueful idiots like you who egg on the Palestinians in their delusions that the UN or outside forces will make the Israeli problem go away, instead of negotiating, while our fucking settlers keep expanding. You all are a major part of the problem.

So we are a major problem, us random people around the world on Reddit why your settlements are expanding. It's not the government that gives them weapons and installs an apartheid system just to protect them. It's not the government that wreaked palestinians rights, hoses, infrastructure and lives. It's not the government that just announced they will annex the biggest chunk of the west bank since around 2000. It's not that you voted in power for the last 20+ years a fascist far right government with the genocidal maniac being at his 6th term in office. It's never the Israeli that instead of protesting massively for what was done during the March of Return you applauded it. It's not the Israeli that were on hills with popcorn applauding when bombs were dropping on Gaza. It's not the Israeli that served in the exact army that goes into the west bank and protects the settlers

Noo, it's others, it's never Israel s fault and if it ever is, it's justified but it almost never is.

It's everyone else.

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lightmaker918@reddit

"I did not say that.", please Kate -

While Palestinians accepted to keep only 22% of the original historic Palestine, Israel wanted more.

Your justification on Arafat walking from the 2000 negotiations. You're a maximalist idealogue, a bad one at that. Arafat's contention wasn't even about land, it was about the right of return.

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Kate090996@reddit

Show me where is the exact part where I said

Yes Kate, you specifically who said Arafat was justified in not giving a counter proposal in 2000 peace talks because he should get the entirety of the 67' borders.

Again, idk what is your reading comprehension level, but tell me where I said what he should get because I don't see it.

Arafat's contention wasn't even about land, it was about the right of return

No it wasn't.

You're literally saying he shouldn't have signed

I literally said he should have if it was real. Like literally, it's in the previous comment that you just read and answered to.

Your reading comprehension skills or even just reading skills are really worrisome, you should do something about that.

You and your like are a bane on this conflict and anyone here who actually suffers from it's consequences and I hope you know that.

Hahahaha. Sure, mate. Keep telling yourself that while you do shit while your country checks the Geneva convention on the back of palestinians.

What did you do in the army? How did you spend your time there?

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lightmaker918@reddit

Reread your comment again Kate, you didn't say anything about Arafat that and how he should've accepted the deal had it been real. Where was it exactly?

All you did was give a 5 point exuse list of why the deal was bad and why he shouldn't have accepted it, or even negoatioted it.

In the Clinton Parameters framework in 2000 the only contention that was outside the parameters was the total right of return, all the land stuff could've been negotiated.

You also haven't shown me a single time Palestinian leaders showed what they would accept. And no, saying 67' borders ain't serious.

I deeply dislike idealogically captured leftists like you who'd rather the conflict to to on for 50 more years while we all kill each other so you get your perfect Israeli concession victory day.

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Kate090996@reddit

Where was it exactly?

here, yeah, ok, I lost track it wasn't the previous but it was a conversation with you

was bad and why he shouldn't have accepted it, or

No, I explained to you once what I actually did.

the Clinton Parameters framework in 2000 the only contention that was outside the parameters was the total right of return, all the land stuff could've been negotiated.

Again, we already discussed and debunked this.

You also haven't shown me a single time Palestinian leaders showed what they would accept.

Roadmap for peace was accepted, what did Israel do?

deeply dislike idealogically captured leftists like you who'd rather the conflict to to on for 50 more years while we all kill each other so you get your perfect Israeli concession victory day.

It wasn't created because of settlements in the WB

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rowida_00@reddit

Because you’re willing to address anything and everything except for Israel’s illegal occupation which is the root cause for all of this. That’s why. Maybe end the occupation and no one would shoot anything?

I specifically addressed the occupation since the very beginning! I made no mention of the settlements in the West Bank.

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lightmaker918@reddit

You made me scroll.

Some person said "I wonder what changed between Israel pulling out and wanting to occupy Gaza"

I said "I wonder why things have changed, might have something to do with the Gazan leadership insistence on never stopping shooting rockets, culminating in a fucking invasion."

You said, and I'm paraphrasing why you put this link, "Gaza and the WB is occupied according to the UN that's why everything they do is Israel's fault, they're blameless victims".

I said "It has nothing to do with what I said. Shooting rockets into civilian areas is against international law too you know."

You said "Because you’re willing to address anything and everything except for Israel’s illegal occupation which is the root cause for all of this" - excusing Hamas' firing of rockets into civilian areas?

I have no idea what you even whataboustisming about, please stop rambling. I don't agree Palestinians are eternal blameless victims, they have agency over their actions and could've sued for peace when Israel offered.

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rowida_00@reddit

please stop rambling.

And yet all you’ve done in this comment was… ramble senselessly!

Please try to get this through your head and the layers of nationalism plaguing your mind. Israel’s decades long illegal occupation is the reason Hamas exists today. Israel’s occupation predates Hamas’s own creation. That is a factual reality. It’s not open for interpretation. It’s not an opinion. You can check the timelines and historical records to corroborate that reality. So when you insist on framing this conflict as “Hamas continues to shoot rockets and Israel is simply responding”, you’re being dishonest because you’re not addressing the occupation. It’s as simple as that. Every action has a reaction. Hamas is a symptom of a a decades long occupation. Just like Hezbollah was born out of Israel’s invasion and occupation of Lebanon.

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lightmaker918@reddit

I don't care why they were created - the PLO was also doing terrorisms and stopped (largely), Hamas can always stop. Your logic doesn't make sense, it must be your Israel hate that's clouding your judgment.

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rowida_00@reddit

I don’t care why they were created

Because it doesn’t augment your falsified rhetoric. We get it.

the PLO was also doing terrorisms and (largely) stopped Hamas can always stop.

And look at the West Bank! Where the PA is in control and they’re effectively complaint with Israel. Palestinians are living under an apartheid there. So much for playing nice with Israel.

Your logic doesn’t make sense, it must be your Israel hate that’s clouding your judgment.

You’ve hardly made any sense throughout this entire thread.

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lightmaker918@reddit

> And look at the West Bank today! Where the PA is in control and they’re effectively complaint with Israel. Palestinians are living under an apartheid there. So much for playing nice with Israel.

Then accept the peace deals when offered! Counterproposal! They pick the worst leaders because they have the worst delusions about the Isrealis geting up and leaving, which will never happen.

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rowida_00@reddit

Any peace deal that doesn’t include what constitutes as Occupied Palestinian Territories isn’t an actual deal! The problem that Israel faces is the existence of Palestinians. You can’t wish them away. They’re not going to cease to exist. Sure, you can genocide and massacre Palestinians but they won’t get up and fulfil your ultimate dream of ethnically cleansing over 5 million Palestinians living in both the West Bank and Gaza. And until you come to terms with that reality, your global standing will continue to erode. And globally, you will be despised.

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lightmaker918@reddit

We agree, they should get a full and fair state based roughly on 67' borders. It's a shame their leaders were being rejectionist, and both people's radicalized since the 2000's.

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rowida_00@reddit

What was offered to them in the camp David summit?

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lightmaker918@reddit

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Clinton_Parameters

97% of the WB contiguous land with land swaps, full state, partial 100k people into Israel proper, some concessions on air space for military use,

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rowida_00@reddit

the Temple Mount (including Al-Aqsa) would remain under Israeli sovereignty. Israel would also take most of the rest of East Jerusalem, while Palestinians would get some parts too. Israel would annex 8% or 13.5% of the West Bank, and would maintain a military of an additional 6–12% of the West Bank for an unspecified period of time ;sometimes called a “long term lease”.

What Israel proposed for a land swap is a mere 1-3% of desert land in the Negev in exchange for 13% of fertile land in the West Bank. And Palestinians would lose their right of return and forgo the right to defending themselves. Yea, my oh my! How generous.

How does that adhere to the stipulations of international law? What “difficult” compromises did Israel make by retaining control of something like Al-Aqsa Mosque? What sort of nonsense is this! In addition to fragmenting whatever little was offered to them, they’d have to give up on their “right of return” while never pursuing the ability to defend themselves.

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Kate090996@reddit

Are you sure about that? Would Hamas have existed without the illegal occupation?

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lightmaker918@reddit

All that blockade did was give Hamas money, power and legitimacy.

Dude, "Hamas got money from smuggling" -- where does that money come from you think? Their fucking population paid for it. Had there been no blockade Hamas could just tax their population anyways.

And they would have a shit ton of free rockets from Iran. Good thing you're not in charge of anything important.

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Kate090996@reddit

Their fucking population paid for it.

Yes, when you block the passage of food, baby formula, condiments, toys of a population they tend to turn towards the black market. Is not really that hard to grasp. I didn't think it would be such news to you

Had there been no blockade Hamas could just tax their population anyways.

Had there been no blockade Hamas wouldn't have had the grasp they did on gazans, the leverage they did and the influence. The population of Gaza needed Hamas to navigate the blockade that Israel imposed, this gave them power and legitimacy.

It's like what I wrote in the previous comment entered through your ear and exited the other.

And they would have a shit ton of free rockets from Iran

This has nothing to do with what I said. Absolutely nothing. it's like you're dismissing anything that doesn't pertain to your bias.

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lightmaker918@reddit

Yes, when you block the passage of food, baby formula, condiments, toys of a population they tend to turn towards the black market. Is not really that hard to grasp. I didn't think it would be such news to you

You know money didn't magically appear inside the Gaza strip while blockade, if anything there would be more money without the blockade, and Hamas would have more of it. You missed how economy works.

Had there been no blockade Hamas wouldn't have had the grasp they did on gazans, the leverage and the influence they did, nor the money either. The population of Gaza needed Hamas to navigate the blockade that Israel imposed, this gave them power and legitimacy. It's like what I wrote in the previous comment entered through your ear and exited the other.

Pretty sure Islamist autocracies can have plenty of control over their populations without blockades or reasons, i.e. Taliban and ISIS.

This has nothing to do with what I said. Absolutely nothing. it's like you're dismissing anything that doesn't pertain to your bias.

Let me explain this for you - Gazans being unemployed from the blockade, or not being able to see their relatives, or finding education, all bad I agree. It does nothing to change my position on the blockade needing to exist. Hamas used travel to train it's militants, it imported dual use goods to power it's military (like 500km of tunnels full of millions of tons of concrete, that they got in spite of the blockade).

Explain to me a pragmatic solution that doesn't rain rockets on me and I'll listen, otherwise you're throwing words to the wind.

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Kate090996@reddit

You know money didn't magically appear inside the Gaza strip while blockade, if anything there would be more money without the blockade, and Hamas would have more of it. You missed how economy works.

Since I already explained twice why this happens, what is the mechanism of their power and legitimacy and you seem to not comprehend, I am not repeating myself. I shouldn't have to explain such a simple thing as if less money gets to Hamas, Hamas will have less money.

I just want to ask if you really believe his argument or you're just bullshitting

Pretty sure Islamist autocracies can have plenty of control over their populations without blockades or reasons, i.e. Taliban and ISIS.

You are so annoying. Did anyone says that the blockade is the only reason that Hamas has control over Gaza?

No.

So why even make this point?

all bad I agree

"Like 1.2 million people not having the certainty of the next meal? Bad. But you see, we needed to continue our terror reign, and we couldn't do that if we were disrupted and we actually had to address the problem from the root. The root is us and our behavior so we couldn't have that

No matter what you feel about the blockade, one thing is sure: it made things worse and Hamas stronger and it made the possibility of a reconciliation even more difficult. 7th of October was well within the reign of imagination considering what you have been doing to gazans not to mention the horrors you instilled on west bankers. For one day you felt a small fraction of what you did to others for decades and you made it rain horrors, imagine how they felt all this time

If you cannot understand that, then there is no hope.

Offer me a pragmatic solution that stops raining rockets on me and I'll listen,

Others have said it to you. You didn't agree with it because you don't see yourself as the abuser.

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redridingoops@reddit

Maybe don't steal people's homes and shoot civilians kids and reporters so they don't feel like fighting back ?

Funny also how Netanyahu himself felt like supporting and funding Hamas when it was convenient so Palestine didn't get reasonable leadership or statehood.

Israel has the neighbours it deserves.

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Agitated-Quit-6148@reddit

You'll have to manage.

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redridingoops@reddit

I live far enough from these dear leaders that I'm unaffected by their bullshit or their dumb voters so there's that.

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Agitated-Quit-6148@reddit

En France ? Ah bah bonne chance lol

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redridingoops@reddit

On est pas gâtés mais comparé à Trump ou Netanyahou, Macron est un grand humaniste et un politicien de génie.

Enjoy your fascist riviera.

This is now my favorite way to refer to Israel.

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Decent_Cheesecake_29@reddit

Israel had Gaza in a complete blockade after “withdrawing,” specifying the exact amount of calories of food allowed to be imported and preventing the importation of dangerous weapons such as cookies and wedding dresses.

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lightmaker918@reddit

There blockade didn't exist between 2005-2007, the only reason the blockade was enacted was because Hamas took power and shot rockets into Israel. Counting calories and all that was done by 2010, the blockade could've been lifted at any point in exchange for not shooting fucking rockets. Just be honest, you'd have endless criticism of it no matter what Israel would have done except capitulation to Hamas.

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rowida_00@reddit

This is from 2005

In August and September 2005, Israel unilaterally withdrew approximately eight thousand settlers, along with military personnel and installations, from the Gaza Strip and four small settlements in the northern West Bank near Jenin. While Israel has since declared the Gaza Strip a “foreign territory” and the crossings between Gaza and Israel “international borders,” under international humanitarian law (IHL), Gaza remains occupied, and Israel retains its responsibilities for the welfare of Gaza residents. Israel maintains effective control over Gaza by regulating movement in and out of the Strip as well as the airspace, sea space, public utilities and population registry. In addition, Israel declared the right to re-enter Gaza militarily at any time in its “Disengagement Plan. Since the withdrawal, Israel has carried out aerial bombardments, including targeted killings, and has fired artillery into the northeastern corner of Gaza.

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lightmaker918@reddit

Ah that was your response, the bold.. hah ok I guess

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lightmaker918@reddit

I love attracting new fans, you'll fit right in mate

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redelastic@reddit

The only thing I could learn from the likes of you is how to justify theft and child murder. Not interested in either tbh.

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lightmaker918@reddit

That's part of the journey, keep subscribing!

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mormon_freeman@reddit

Man, this guy spends a lot of time saying demonstrably wrong things, asking for evidence, not reading it, and then having a temper tantrum.

He defends rape, he defends murder, killing children all of the worst things.

This guy makes Jeffery Dahmer seem like a reasonable person.

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lightmaker918@reddit

Welcome too buddy!

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redelastic@reddit

Liemaker918 loves some baby killing.

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rowida_00@reddit

And all they had to do to stop the blockade, occupation and “aparthied” in Gaza is stop firing rockets. It’s literally not that hard.

Yea, sure! That’s why the West Bank is the way it is despite the absence of Hamas. How stupid do you need to be to believe this nonsense?

You’re delusional yourself if you think I should tolerate getting fired rockets upon or pull out of the WB to 99% get another, higher ground 12km from Tel Aviv, Hamas-isque as a neighbor.

And you’re divorced from reality if you think that you’ll ever live in peace if you continue to deny an entire population their right to self determination. French colonial rule lasted 132 years in Algeria before it fell apart. Let that sink into your head.

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redelastic@reddit

Liemaker918 is either being paid to lie or just lies as a natural result of indoctrination. It's like trying to have a rational discussion with someone in a cult, it's simply not possible.

They can't acknowledge their own criminality because of their entitlement.

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mormon_freeman@reddit

He did though

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redelastic@reddit

Liemaker918 is Israeli so likes to make lies.

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Kate090996@reddit

There blockade didn't exist between 2005-2007

This is only partially true( what a surprise, not)

After Israel withdrew from Gaza, restrictions remained on movement and trade. The Erez crossing was closed often. Movement to the West Bank was severely restricted, making education, business, and family visits difficult.

And, more important, The Karni crossing, the main commercial crossing, was very often closed by Israel, disrupting exports and imports. It disrupted Gaza’s economy, its agricultural, textile, and furniture industries.

It wasn't a full blockade, it was the pre-full blockade that was disruptive for Palestinians and made their livelihoods harder.

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lightmaker918@reddit

Yes there were restrictions, but there were also rocket attacks every single year from 2000 to 2007. It wasn't a full blockade but border control that weapons are not entering during a turbulent time aftef the 2nd Intifada, seems fair enough.

Do you think anyone thought it was a good idea to open up Gaza entirely before elections were even held? Even the PA would've been against that. Hamas might've liked that.

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Kate090996@reddit

Yes there were restrictions, but there were also rocket attacks every single year from 2000 to 2007. It wasn't a full blockade but border control that weapons are not entering during a turbulent time aftef the 2nd Intifada, seems fair enough.

Do you think anyone thought it was a good idea to open up Gaza entirely before elections were even held? Even the PA would've been against that. Hamas might've liked that.

You so much bore me with this argument. If no matter what anyone tells you, you bring up rocket attacks then there is no discussion here. I saw you used it multiple times and not only with me for basically everything in places that it has no purpose.

Is this the former Hamas argument? Or this is 2nd place argument after Hamas? 1,2 ROCKETS!

You restrict trade, and food and movement from Gaza to the west bank and then you cry about rockets. do you even realize what you are talking about?

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lightmaker918@reddit

I'm focusing the conversation - no one gave any good example how it benefited Gaza or Hamas to keep firing rockets. There was literally no reason to resist by firing at civilians, and I'll keep asking that as long as I won't get a proper answer.

The only reason "I" restrict food and movement from Gaza is rockets. We both know that if it weren't for rockets (and Hamas' main goal of destroying Israel - their charter) there would be no blockade. It's soooo silly that you have it reversed.

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Kate090996@reddit

and I'll keep asking that as long as I won't get a proper answer.

Again, you got it, you didn't accept it because you don't see yourself as the abuser but as the victim.

would be no blockade

So why is there a form of blockade in the West bank? In many forms, the west bank was far worse than Gaza before the 7th of October. It was far more "blocked" as in restricted than Gaza

And how does restricting food and chess boards and condiments and medicine help with rockets ?

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blueNgoldWarrior@reddit

Oh shit you didn’t get the updated pamphlet. They already figured out that reinforcing the Gaza settlements was untenable at the time and that withdrawal was to prevent a unified Palestinian state and isolate Gaza. They even have Ariel Sharon on record saying it.

You gotta use the newer propaganda or everyone’s gonna start seeing through it.

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redridingoops@reddit

You gotta use the newer propaganda or everyone’s gonna start seeing through it.

They don't care any longer, they've got US support secured entirely for the next 4 years and they'll make the most of it.

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lightmaker918@reddit

Ariel Sharon already had plans to continue pulling out of 90% of the WB by 2006 and dismantled 4 far flung settlements, and got an untimely stroke. You have no idea what you're talking about.

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blueNgoldWarrior@reddit

That’s not relevant to what I was saying…

But, are you trying to sell a narrative that Israel would have totally stopped killing and stealing, from the areas they illegally occupy and implement apartheid, if only one barbaric war criminal hadn’t had a stroke?..

Are people supposed to interpret that as a good thing??

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lightmaker918@reddit

Ariel Sharon was pargamatic, it was not for love of Palestinians but for acknowledging the situation and wanting to cut ties. I wish he was successful.

Olmert and Barak offered a 2 state solution in 2000 and 2008, those were both rejected by Arafat and Abbas. I wish for one time Palestinians actually said what they would find acceptable as a 2 state solution.

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Kate090996@reddit

. I wish for one time Palestinians actually said what they would find acceptable as a 2 state solution

From the first time at the negotiation table the official representative of palestinians, PLO, recognized Israel's right to exist and advocated for a 2 state solution with the borders of 68

Why are you lying again? Is there a time you don't lie?

As for your peace deals

While Palestinians accepted to keep only 22% of the original historic Palestine, Israel wanted more.

Palestinian negotiators accepted the Green Line borders (1949 armistice lines) for the West Bank but the Israelis rejected this proposal

Israel was not willing to cede sovereignty over East Jerusalem, including the Old City, to the Palestinians. The Palestinians sought East Jerusalem as the capital of their future state and it was a historical holy place.

Israel wanted that historically important Arab neighborhoods such as Sheikh Jarrah, Silwan and at-Tur would remain under Israeli sovereignty

Israel suggested annexing approximately 9% of the West Bank, particularly areas with large settlement blocks, and in return offered land from the Negev desert, which is less valuable.

Israel was opposed to the Right of Return of Palestinians and said that any right of return would pose a threat to Israel's Jewish character

Israel wanted also to be allowed to use its airspace of Palestine the right to deploy troops on Palestinian territory

Israel also demanded that the Palestinian state be demilitarized with the exception of police,

Israel sought control over the main water aquifers located in the West Bank.

Israel would collect Value Added Tax (VAT) and import duties on goods destined for the Palestinian territories, which they do and are supposed to transfer the funds to PLO but there have been instances when they didn't. Any divergence from Israeli trade policy, particularly tariffs, required Israeli approval.

the one from 2003 was accepted but you don't like to talk about that

It was Israel that didn't agree with its own provisions and later changed their mind.

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lightmaker918@reddit

From the first time at the negotiation table the official representative of palestinians, PLO, recognized Israel's right to exist and advocated for a 2 state solution with the borders of 68

Why are you lying again?

Why can't you comprehend what I said.

I said they didn't say what proposal they were willing to accept, not that they didn't recognize Israel.

While Palestinians accepted to keep only 22% of the original historic Palestine...

Your position is Arafat should have said 67' or nothing, fine that's childish, I also disagree. 400k live in areas close to the border at the time. Land swaps was a fair solution.

Israel was opposed to the Right of Return of Palestinians and said that any right of return would pose a threat to Israel's Jewish character

Obviously. They can get a right of return into the new Palestinian state, they don't get an Israeli passport to outvote the Jews and kick them out into the sea.

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Kate090996@reddit

Why can't you comprehend what I said. I said they didn't say what proposal they were willing to accept, not that they didn't recognize Israel.

They did, many times, as for the amount of land it's in the text as well, in my answer, the border of 68 was on the table in the 2000s but Israel wanted to keep parts of settlements.

Your position is Arafat should have said 67' or nothing, fine that's childish, I also disagree. 400k live in areas close to the border at the time. Land swaps was a fair solution

No.

Boy, harsbara really only gives their bots only basic neural networks these days.

What I meant is that there were already **plenty of concessions made and Israel kept asking for more. Not only more land but also more in general. More of everything.

You are probably on the opinion that for whatever fucking reason (blah blah God gave it to us, blah blah Jewish kingdoms, blah blah we bought 7% so we deserve the rest of 50% blah I heard them all, all of them bullshit), Israel has the right to steal the land of Israel and then ethnically cleanse the land from palestinians

But others, especially Palestinians didn't so, for them it was already a huge concession that they accepted to keep only 22% of what was rightfully theirs.

And Israel still kept asking for ridiculously more things

Obviously. They can get a right of return into the new Palestinian state, they don't get an Israeli passport to outvote the Jews and kick them out into the sea.

Yeah, that makes sense for a colonizer. Ofc. For the rest of sane the people that aren't colonizers and thieves and don't live in the house of ethnically cleansed people, this doesn't make sense.

Don't worry cuz it wasn't a hard line, they accepted payment instead of the right of return. It was just another example of the things that palestinians had to give up on for your lovely peace agreement that you keep bringing up.

You are the thieves, the aggressors, and you come to the negotiation table having far more demands than the victim and you blame the victim for not accepting even more concessions that the victim already made.

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lightmaker918@reddit

They did, many times, as for the amount of land it's in the text as well, in my answer, the border of 68 was on the table in the 2000s but Israel wanted to keep parts of settlements.

Obviously, 400k people live there, it should be resolved with land swaps. That wasn't even the contention, that's something westerners like you make up to justify them not negotiating.

What I meant is that there were already plenty of concessions made and Israel kept asking for more. Not only more land but also more in general. More of everything.

That's wrong. Cinton and the Saudi ambassador are on record saying the Israelis gave reservations within the Clinton Parameters deal in 2000 with the Palestinians giving reservations outside, i.e. walking away from negotiations. As the negotiations proceeded Israel gave more and more each time (probably a big mistake in negotiations), in 2008 it even offered and 97% of the land with the remainder 3% at 1:1 land swaps, and east Jerusalem.

You are probably on the opinion that for whatever fucking reason (blah blah God gave it to us, blah blah Jewish kingdoms, blah blah we bought 7% so we deserve the rest of 50% blah I heard them all, all of them bullshit), Israel has the right to steal the land of Israel and then ethnically cleanse the land from palestinians

That's your injected racist view, not mine. My position is the country is a done deal, it's not going anywhere, people need to accept that, but whatever won't stop us defending ourselves in the meanwhile while they don't.

Yeah, that makes sense for a colonizer. Ofc. For the rest of sane the people that aren't colonizers and thieves and don't live in the house of ethnically cleansed people, this doesn't make sense.

You calling me names doesn't matter anything, most Israelis were born here and aren't going anywhere. But you're just lying infinitely, and I'm glad you exposed yourself as the anti Israel antisemite that you are.

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Kate090996@reddit

Oh, no! They walked out when the abuser asked for even more concessions!

in 2008 it even offered and 97% of the land

Brother, you forgot to mention that land was west bank as in a land that you illegally occupied and annexed.

Again, as I said, Israel said but in reality you didn't allow them to inspect the map or give these in writing so in reality, you can say anything right now because it has no value. You can say you offered them everything and anything.

That's your injected racist view

Do you even know what racism means?

the country is a done deal, it's not going anywhere

I wasn't making the point it should, the opposite, but also no country is a done deal, especially, probably, not one that has a hobby of making enemies and bombing civilians.

people need to accept that, but whatever won't stop us defending ourselves in the meanwhile while they don't.

Palestinians did and you kept killing and occupying them so there is that.

calling me names doesn't matter anything

I am not calling you name, I am calling you by your name. Isn't Israel a colonizing country? Do you deny the settlements? Wasn't the land of Israel a colonized land first? Didn't you ethnically cleansed 300k palestinian via Plan Dalet? Didn't you takE land and houses that weren't yours from people that didn't give it to you? Don't you continue to do so to this exact day?

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blueNgoldWarrior@reddit

Oh you’re still doing the Palestinians rejected peace bullshit. It’s not landing anymore man, work with reality.

Israel never offered Palestine a state with control of its borders, water, and land within the 67 borders. Never.

Come to terms with that. That is the reality we have to work with. Palestine has been very clear that they would accept that and were even going to accept less at Taba. Israel walked away.

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lightmaker918@reddit

It did though. Land air conditions weren't even congested by Arafat and Abbas.

If it wasn't enough, why don't we know what the Palestinian proposal counter offer is? No Palestinian leader has ever said what conditions they'd agree to.

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Oh hey there pal, I wondered where you went to

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redelastic@reddit

How many babies has Israel killed while I was away?

You ever wondered why America gave Egypt so much money?

It's a bribe, because Egypt would beat Israel in a war.

Egypt took the money and bought expensive American equipment with it. They also have large cities and strategic depth. I don't know who would win today but Egypt's chances are good.

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happybaby00@reddit

I'm calling bullshit on this sorry, this has been a cope for decades, israel like america has been at war since its existance, egypt has not, israel is more technologically advanced and has better trained soliders and especially officers. Arab armies are known for being incompetent and lazy, name the last conflict egypt was in?

The gear america sells to egypt is heavily downgraded, the only country that gets near 1:1 on tech especially f16s is israel not to mention they're a nuclear state lmfao

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le-o@reddit

Nazis v soviets, Iraq v Iran

Never underestimate strategic depth/population differences and never overestimate a tech advantage. Tech and experience seriously matter but so do demographics and geography.

I absolutely am not saying Egypt wins, just that it's a different ballpark than Lebanon

As for the nuclear capability are you saying Israel would nuke Egypt? Why? Isn't it far more likely to end in a negotiated settlement?

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Like Israeli agents dressed as doctors to kill someone in a hospital ? Or hostages tied to a car as human shields ?
Or what, rapist getting medals ?

I do, which is how I know Israel started this... In order to steal land.

Settlers aren't in their land, occupiers can't be victims of terrorism.

Israel simply conveniently forgets this every time they claim "Israeli civilians were attacked... While living in someone else's home like parasites with tanks."

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Dry-Season-522@reddit

"How dare they STEAL from people trying to MURDER THEIR CHILDREN. Just cuz someone's trying to kill your children doesn't mean you can be MEAN to them."

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redridingoops@reddit

If you move around with your children evicting other people's children and killing them, you're as unfit a parent as you are a human being.

Bit weird to complain about your illegal settlement being unsafe for your family, have you considered leaving ?

But sure, pour your Lebensraum above your children safety, like a good Nazi without foreskin...

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metamorphotits@reddit

you are literally describing war crimes.

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You support theft and child murder. Others do not.

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redelastic@reddit

Goodlucksil@reddit

BringBackThe60's

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soyyoo@reddit

Israhell*

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discographyA@reddit

Stealing land and killing women and children is what they are addicted to. It’s who Zionists are in their blood.

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SunriseHolly@reddit

This is Israel Katz's new strategy to get the hostages back, I hope it works.

Hamas spent the whole ceasefire bragging about their tremendous victory - they didn't lose any land! If that's the big sign of victory, I don't see why they should keep the land post-ceasefire.

When did the West Bank attack Israel? That is a stretch.

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SunriseHolly@reddit

https://www.inss.org.il/publication/terror-2023-2024/

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loggy_sci@reddit

This says there was an increase in people throwing rocks and a decrease in significant attacks like those using vehicles. This is flimsy. Attacks in the WB are categorically different and not at all of the same scope or magnitude as attacks from Gaza or Lebanon.

The fact of the matter is that Israel’s actions in the WB have made it so that most Palestinians believe that there will never be a solution to I/P that doesn’t involve armed struggle. The WB actions by Israel are dictated by internal Israeli politics and not due to some existential threat posed by teenagers throwing rocks or stabbing settlers. Try again.

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valentc@reddit

When was the last time the PA attacked Israel? Don't they help them with raids and stuff?

Or is it ok to steal houses and murder civilians of cooperative governments?

All those places attacked Israel, what do you expect Israel to do? Roll over and die?

I mean, they don't have to commit genocide and could have offered Palestinians citizenship 75 years ago, but nah, genocide and mass displacement are easier and more humane, right?

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adasiukevich@reddit

It's relevant because you're saying this will all stop if Hamas give up the hostages, which clearly isn't the case given that Israel are doing similar things in other countries/territories that don't have hostages.

Also, when was the last time Syria attacked Israel?

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cap123abc@reddit (OP)

It’s just strange that Israel needs to provide leverage when Phase 2 of the negotiated ceasefire framework slated all hostages to be released. Israel then broke negotiations of Phase 2 to the dismay of the remaining hostages families. But Israel gets to take more land. That was their goal anyway.

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SunriseHolly@reddit

Tell me- as the leader of whatever country you're from in North America, would *you* agree to the conditions of Phase 2?

Assuming the other side started the war by invading, kidnapping, raping, torturing, and murdering your people, of course.

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Theamazingquinn@reddit

Amazing how quickly you can completely change your argument from saving hostages to destroying Hamas whatever the cost.

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cap123abc@reddit (OP)

Yes I would secure the hostages I’m claiming to wage war for. The thing is Israel is not waging this war to secure the hostages. Their goal is ethnic cleansing.

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SunriseHolly@reddit

Yes, you'd let the genocidial neighbor stay in power and rebuild their army and infrustructure for them?

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valentc@reddit

Wait, so it's ok to dismantle genocide idal governments who have stated their only goal is to secure land for their people anyway they can?

So you agree that the current Israeli government needs to be dismantled?

rebuild their army and infrustructure for them

Israel's violence is what causes Hamas' rebuild, but under international law, occupiers need to provide those things to the occupying countries.

Gaza and West Bank are occupied territories. If Israel don't want to be responsible for them, maybe they shouldn't be occupying them.

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cap123abc@reddit (OP)

It’s fine to admit hostages are not the priority. Many have already accepted this around the world. It is just nonsense when people pretend Israel cares about the hostages. They could hypothetically have secured the hostages during Phase 2 and then pummeled Gaza after anyway.

The Israeli government already has a history of lying. It’s just the hostages coming home isn’t the goal. The IDF prefers they remain captive because it helps convince the populace of Israel the war must go on.

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adasiukevich@reddit

Knew it was only a matter of time before you made another dumbass WW2 comparison.

Answer my initial question. Is collective punishment a war crime or not?

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EntertainmentIcy3090@reddit

Reparations are not collective punishment

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valentc@reddit

How the fuck is stealing land "reparations?" Was it ok for Poland to displaced millions of Polish-Germans after the war because they were scared?

Its ok for mass displacement as long as a country is paranoid? Or are you just going to be a disgusting pos, and say "well that's war.🤡"

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5ma5her7@reddit

You know what happened after the Treaty of Versailles, right...?

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adasiukevich@reddit

What about displacing millions of people who have committed no crime?

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EntertainmentIcy3090@reddit

War tends to have that effect.

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adasiukevich@reddit

But this isn't just as a result of war, Israel are clearly stating their intent to do it.

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EntertainmentIcy3090@reddit

But this isn't just as a result of war

It is. Losing a bit of land is the consequence of starting a war that you can not win.

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adasiukevich@reddit

They're not "losing a bit of land", Israel and the US have made clear their plans to ethnically cleanse the area.

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EntertainmentIcy3090@reddit

And Trump is a moron who says lots of stupid things. Israel is however announcing that they want to extend the security zone. As they should.

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adasiukevich@reddit

And Trump is a moron who says lots of stupid things.

And Israel go along with it.

https://edition.cnn.com/2025/02/06/middleeast/netanyahu-endorses-trump-gaza-plan-intl-hnk/index.html

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FixFederal7887@reddit

I think israel should release the thousands of Palestinian hostages they took if they don't want taking hostages to become a strategy.

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EntertainmentIcy3090@reddit

Israel has not taken hostages.

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FixFederal7887@reddit

More than 3400 Palestinians are currently held in israeli prisons without any trial . That's not counting the hundreds more held by order of a "military court," which has a 99% conviction rate if a "trial" is reached.

If those aren't hostages , then no one knows what is .

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EntertainmentIcy3090@reddit

More than 3400 Palestinians are currently held in israeli prisons without any trial

Agreed this is terrible. They should be tried and executed for fighting out of uniform. Yet Israel is too humane to do that.

That's not counting the hundreds more held by order of a "military court,"

Do you want them to be tried by a civilian court? That is a pro annexation argument.

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FixFederal7887@reddit

They should be tried and executed for fighting out of uniform.

immediately assumes all are terrorists despite thousands being literal children.

Truly , a Germans try not to be Genocidal challenge (they've been failing this for about 100 year)

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EntertainmentIcy3090@reddit

If you were capable of reading you would have noticed the following.

They should be tried and executed for fighting out of uniform. Yet Israel is too humane to do that.

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valentc@reddit

Too humane to hold trials? They just explained that these prisoner, many of them children, are held without charge. They haven't been tried for anything, and are essentially hostages of Israel.

You're ok with murdering innocent people if Israel says they are terrorists. Real disgusting motherfucker aren't you?

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rattleandhum@reddit

you are parody of a human being.

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icatsouki@reddit

How Israel jails hundreds of Palestinians without charge

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EntertainmentIcy3090@reddit

I agree that Israel takes too many prisoners.

Many of them deserve the death penalty, not judicial limbo.

That being said prisoners =/= hostages

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adasiukevich@reddit

prisoners =/= hostages

It is if they are being held prisoner without charge.

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EntertainmentIcy3090@reddit

Nope. They are prisoners. Different thing.

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adasiukevich@reddit

The only thing that's different is that you view one side as human and the other as not. Arresting and jailing someone without charge is akin to taking someone hostage.

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EntertainmentIcy3090@reddit

Arresting and jailing someone without charge is akin to taking someone hostage.

Nope. Holding someone prisoner for the sole purpose of trading them for something else is taking someone hostage. That is what Hamas did.

Taking someone prisoner because you believe them to be the enemy/criminals is something different.

Those two are different things thus prisoner =/= hostage

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adasiukevich@reddit

Holding someone prisoner for the sole purpose of trading them for something else is taking someone hostage. That is what Hamas did.

This is also what Israel did.

https://truthout.org/articles/israel-has-detained-380-palestinians-from-west-bank-since-gaza-ceasefire/

Taking someone prisoner because you believe them to be the enemy/criminals is something different.

You could argue that that's what Hamas did on 10/7. From their point of view, the Israelis are enemies/criminals.

Either way, in the Western world, you're not supposed to be able to detain someone simply because "you believe" something about that person. You have to provide proof, and the accused has to be given a fair trial, otherwise you are no better than Nazi Germany.

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EntertainmentIcy3090@reddit

This is also what Israel did.

Nope. Israel started cracking down more on the West Bank because the Gaza ceasefire freed up troops. Correlation =/= causation.

You could argue that that's what Hamas did on 10/7. From their point of view, the Israelis are enemies/criminals.

Although Hamas would indeed argue that point the existence of Jews in Israel is not a crime. You should not be making such arguments.

Either way, in the Western world, you're not supposed to be able to detain someone simply because "you believe" something about that person.

That is exactly how it works in many western countries. You are arrested because the state believes you are guilty. The trial happens later

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adasiukevich@reddit

the existence of Jews in Israel is not a crime.

Nor is the existence of Palestinians in Palestine, yet Israel can detain them as they please.

You are arrested because the state believes you are guilty. The trial happens later

Exactly, there is a trial. This does not happen in Israel for many Palestinians.

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EntertainmentIcy3090@reddit

Nor is the existence of Palestinians in Palestine, yet Israel can detain them as they please.

Israel detains people suspected of being members of Hamas or other terrorist groups or having otherwise contributed to combat.

Exactly, there is a trial. This does not happen in Israel for many Palestinians.

Which is wrong. They should be tried and, if found guilty, executed where appropriate.

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adasiukevich@reddit

Israel detains people suspected of being members of Hamas or other terrorist groups or having otherwise contributed to combat.

Including children? And again, in the West, everyone is entitled to defend themselves in a court of law.

Which is wrong. They should be tried and, if found guilty, executed where appropriate.

Including the children that are detained?

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ExoticCard@reddit

Don't let them fool you.

They are extremely loose with taking people.

Source: My dad and all my uncles were imprisoned and tortured. They did nothing.

My dad still showers cold and the stories he told me were wild. They would release the dogs on them at 2-3 AM while they were asleep.

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adasiukevich@reddit

Many of them deserve the death penalty

Don't worry, you get your wish.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68780112

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EntertainmentIcy3090@reddit

Deaths in prisons are not unique to Israel.

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adasiukevich@reddit

What about beatings, deprivation, torture, and rape? Is that totally normal too?

https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2024/07/12/beatings-deprivation-torture-rape-palestinians-speak-of-the-hell-of-israeli-prisons_6682380_4.html#

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EntertainmentIcy3090@reddit

What about beatings, deprivation, torture, and rape?

Just look at what Americans do to their own people in their prisons. Rape is so common that they make jokes about dropping the soap.

Yes, conditions in prisons being shit is not unique to Israel and just like many nations I believe that Israel can improve their prison conditions.

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adasiukevich@reddit

So is it okay if Hamas do those things too? Since it's apparently okay for the US and Israel?

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EntertainmentIcy3090@reddit

If Hamas treated their prisoners the same way the Israelis do then that would be a step in the right direction.

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adasiukevich@reddit

So you're saying you wish this women, who says she was treated well during her captivity, had been beaten, tortured, and raped instead?

"MuH hOsTaGeS"

Get lost with your expansionist ambitions, this is land grab for the sole purpose of ethnic cleansing and the murder and slaughter of Palestinians without remorse.

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SunriseHolly@reddit

The vast majority of the Israeli population has no interest in Gazan land, let alone settling it.
Give back the hostages, don't lose any land. Seems pretty simple to me.

If it was an expansionist land grab plot the whole time, why did Israel wait over a year and a half to do it?

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ChaosKeeshond@reddit

If it was an expansionist land grab plot the whole time, why did Israel wait over a year and a half to do it?

West Bank says hi.

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pack0newports@reddit

don't start wars you don't lose land seems pretty simple.

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ChaosKeeshond@reddit

Ethnic cleansing is much more important to the leadership than the hostages lives are.

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Dry-Season-522@reddit

So what you're saying is that if Israel were to say... round up a few thousand Palestinians and execute 10 for every rocket fired at Israel, that would be fine because "who is to say their lives have any value?"

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Funtycuck@reddit

Your reading comprehension is evidently the product of US schooling.

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Great, so Hamas can decide to let them go and surrender. This way they'll be saving the lives of all their civilians.

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Funtycuck@reddit

In the long will it make a difference? "Israel" seems utterly commited to ethnic cleansing in the West Bank and Gaza.

And its fucking wild to put those deaths not on the contemptable monsters killing civilians.

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L_o_n_g_b_o_i@reddit

Would Netanyahu allow that, given the sacks of cash he gives them?

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the only one doing genocide here is Israel.

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SunriseHolly@reddit

Hamas certainly tried, they just failed.

I call it "consequences".

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Private_HughMan@reddit

"We will succeed where they failed! It's fine when we do it because everyone else is even more evil! Just trust us on that one. Also, we need more land for our people, so we're taking your's. They need the living space."

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Decent_Cheesecake_29@reddit

Oh look, blood level.

SunriseHolly@reddit

I literally never said that? I asked why you don't expect Israel ("a country") to put its citizens first.

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stprnn@reddit

you said that when you made a distinction between israel citizens and.... who? either all people in that area are israeli citizens or there are israeli and palestinian citizens.

what you are saying simply doesnt make sense since israel is the occupying force in a foreign country that you dont even recognize.

i know all these zionist lies are really confusing and dont make sense when you put them together.

but lets say there are 2 countries and israel want to protect its own citizens. Its very simple, dont oppress people and they wont feel the need to fight back.

which means ending the occupation,releasing the thousand of hostages and reform the government to represent all people in the area.

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Dry-Season-522@reddit

The alternative is to reward hostage taking. Do you want that?

Looks at post history.

Oh.

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wewew47@reddit

Pathetic. The ceasefire proceeding as planned would have already freed all the hostages, hence why the hostage families came out against Israel breaking the ceasefire.

How dare you use the hostages to justify mass murder and land theft. You don't care about them at all - if you did you'd be agreeing with them and their families who agree with the ceasefire.

Dry-Season-522@reddit

If Israel was guilty of 1% of the genocide you accuse, there wouldn't be any palestinians left.

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Dry-Season-522@reddit

Imagine having the balls to kidnap people and then whine to the world when those whose people you're holsting hostage... take some of your land.

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Brickishly@reddit

This ridiculous Zionist project has failed utterly.

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TheGreatJingle@reddit

If you talk actually talk to people who don’t agree and don’t pretend to know what they believe it’s that they don’t think a. Two state solution could really work. They think a Palestinian state would exist with a goal to have one Palestinian only state. Hamas, other militants , the and especially the second infintada has hardened this belief.

People get the world you are saying would be better. The people in Isreal just don’t believe you. Because when a real deal was close and neither side was going to get all of what they want, Afrat walked out and declared war. We can argue till we’re blue in the face why he did that , but at the end of the day he did. And that killed a lot of sympathy in Israel permanently .

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NukeAGayWhale4Jesus@reddit

Because when a real deal was close and neither side was going to get all of what they want, Afrat walked out and declared war.

I don't know why this lie is so important to Zionists, but I see it repeated all the time. The reference is to the 2000 Camp David Summit and the 2001 Taba Summit. The Taba Summit came very, very close to reaching a deal, but ended when "the Likud party candidate Ariel Sharon defeated Ehud Barak in the Israeli elections and was elected as Israeli prime minister on 6 February 2001. Sharon's new government chose not to resume the high-level talks". You got that right, folks: it was the Israelis, not the Palestinians, who walked away "when a real deal was close and neither side was going to get all of what they wanted".

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TheGreatJingle@reddit

https://www.newsweek.com/clinton-arafat-its-all-your-fault-153779

Maybe you should stop being dishonest. After Afrat left camp David he started the second iniftada

This killed the isreali left and was the main reason Ariel Sharon won. So thanks for being a typical lying propagandist. You’re welcome for the actual sources that show the timeline.

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rowida_00@reddit

Maybe, and that’s a difficult ask for a Zionist, you should actually be honest about what was really offered to the Palestinians in the Camp David Summit instead of deflecting the blame onto Arafat entirely.

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TheGreatJingle@reddit

It was over 90 percent of what he asked for. Both sides made difficult compromises

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rowida_00@reddit

What was actually offered to them:

the Temple Mount (including Al-Aqsa) would remain under Israeli sovereignty. Israel would also take most of the rest of East Jerusalem, while Palestinians would get some parts too. Israel would annex 8% or 13.5% of the West Bank, and would maintain a military of an additional 6–12% of the West Bank for an unspecified period of time ;sometimes called a “long term lease”

No I’m not swapping land bordering West Bank for land in West Bank is a reasonable thing to do. Land swaps have been part of plenty of peace deals in disputed lands for basically all of history including the post ww2 era. It’s not a dunk you think it is it just displays your own ignorance .

Yeah and how did al asqa become into possession of Arabs and be renamed ? After violence and renamed as a symbol of colonialism . Colonialism isn’t only when white people and Jews do it.

Isn’t your entire arguement we should undue colonialism ? Shouldn’t we undue Muslim colonialism? How long someone controls things doesn’t matter right ?

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rowida_00@reddit

No I’m not swapping land bordering West Bank for land in West Bank is a reasonable thing to do. Land swaps have been part of plenty of peace deals in disputed lands for basically all of history including the post ww2 era. It’s not a dunk you think it is it just displays your own ignorance .

Taking 13% of fertile land and exchanging it for 1-3% of desert land far away from your newly established state is indeed reasonable. Do you listen to yourself, like ever?

Yeah and how did al asqa become into possession of Arabs and be renamed ? After violence and renamed as a symbol of colonialism . Colonialism isn’t only when white people and Jews do it.

Oh my! Those Arabs have indeed done something rather exclusive in that region. It’s like Canaan was conquered by Israelites. That region was subsequently conquered and ruled by the Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Hellenistic (Greeks), Romans, Byzantines and then the Arabs (during the 7th century). In fact, it was the Babylonians who destroyed the kingdom of Judah in 587 BC!

Isn’t your entire arguement we should undue colonialism ? Shouldn’t we undue Muslim colonialism? How long someone controls things doesn’t matter right ?

My argument is that an existing population, that has been existing there for centuries, shouldn’t be ethnically cleansed by European nationals who thought they had an inherent right to lands they had no affiliation to. Simple enough?

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TheGreatJingle@reddit

So you think is Isreal holds enough to be their more than one it would be wrong to displace them? Is it also wrong to displace the middle eastern Jews who have lived in the area for centuries and make up a majority of Israel’s Jewish population?

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It’s not a random question it’s a direct response. You think colonialism is fine if they just stick around long enough. So I’m asking if you’re ok with Isreal sticking around enough. ?

But it is a random question. Because it’s divorced from the reality of what has happened. How was Israel created? You tell me how, and we can discuss whether it’s acceptable or not to continue to subjugate an existing population. We’re not discussing colonialism in an abstract form. What about what’s happening today to millions of people who are denied their right to self determination. What about them?

And yes I expect Palestinians to agree to share a joint holy sight that their ancestors stole via violence and colonization. That’s a small concession.

Again, not sharing. Israel will retain full ownership of the entire area that is inclusive of Al-Aqsa Mosque. Stop being dishonest. Who did they steal it from? Thieves? Who stole it from thieves? That’s precisely why your argument is senseless. Why are you granting Zionists a superior right over all the remaining populations that ruled those lands? Why single them as the rightful owners? On what basis? The truth of the matter is, Palestinians were the existing population when Israel was created. Whether you choose to accept that reality or not is irrelevant.

You also wrongfully call Zionist’s European settlers. Some are but that generalization is incorrect and invalidates your arguement which is why I pointed it out. Most Israelis are not European descent. Most Isreali Jews are also not of European descent.

No, Israel was literally created by European nationals exclusively. That’s exactly who created the Zionist Congress. Arguing otherwise would constitute historical negationism.

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TheGreatJingle@reddit

So Isreal was in no way created by any Jewish person in Isreal from before the 1900s? Which before you same in goal post moving is exactly what you call. I think to discount their contributions and existence is incredibly dishonest and seeks to rewrite history into a comfortable narrative for you. The vast majority of the Isreali state and its civilians are not of European descent. I specifically am referring to Isreali citizens. This is a simple fact.

You claim Al Asqa was stolen so it as a concession is unfair, . But Al Asqa itself was stolen by Palestinens Ancestors . Shouldn’t correcting that be a reasonable thing to do? It is not a site only for Muslims . Despite what many Muslims believe.

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rowida_00@reddit

Oh, so European nationals had a right to create a Jewish state in lands they literally had no affiliation to, in the 20th century, simply because some Jews had a kingdom there over 3000 years ago? That’s what you’re going with? And in creating that state, they had a right to uproot an existing population that has been living there for centuries?

And no who’s doing the “correction” for Al-Aqsa mosque? Why Zionists particularly? Canaan never actually belong to them. So why are you singling them out as the ones with the divine right to do this “correction”!?

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TheGreatJingle@reddit

It wasn’t exclusive and that’s the problem with your arguement. That’s just factually not true . The Zionist project was and is a large group of primarily Jewish people of various programs. Yes it included Europeans . It was not only Europeans .

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rowida_00@reddit

It wasn’t exclusive and that’s the problem with your arguement. That’s just factually not true . The Zionist project was and is a large group of primarily Jewish people of various programs. Yes it included Europeans . It was not only Europeans

Where was the Zionist movement created? Who created it? Who led the Zionist Congress? What were the nationals of every single member of that Congress? Who created the ‘Jewish Colonial Trust’ in (1898)? The ‘Colonization Commission’ in (1898)? The ‘Jewish National Fund’ in (1901) and the ‘Palestine Office’ in (1908)? Who created Zionist terrorist organizations the Irgun, lehi and haganah? Please, educate us.

And I think anyone who colonized should be removed don’t you? Or do you just want Jews removed.

So why are you advocating for Jews to do the removal? And why just remove Palestinians specifically? Canaan never belonged to Israelites to begin with. Why do they get to stay but not Palestinians?

No one advocated for the removal of Jews who existed for centuries in Palestine prior to the creation of the Zionist movement in Basel, Switzerland in 1887 or even after that, when the Zionist colonial project starting taking shape with the initiation of the Balfour declaration of 1917. Wh

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TheGreatJingle@reddit

Having Europeans in a group doesn’t make the group exclusively European so I don’t understand your first point

Also if no one wanted to remove Jews and they pre Israel then please explain the numerous pogroms and the fact they were second class citizens under the ottomans

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rowida_00@reddit

Having Europeans in a group doesn’t make the group exclusively European so I don’t understand your first point

You refuse to accept the stipulations of historical records. Just like you thought it’s reasonable to trade 13% of fertile land with 1-3% of desert land that would further compromise the continuity of a viable state. And just how you denied that Israel demanded full ownership of the entirety of the Temple Mount. You’re now pretending that an entire European movement was simply “part European”. Why not answer the questions then?

Also if no one wanted to remove Jews and they pre Israel then please explain the numerous pogroms and the fact they were second class citizens under the ottomans

You mean to tell me that when Sephardic Jews were fleeing actual persecution in the Iberian peninsula in 1490 during Al-Hambra Decree, they fled to the Ottoman Empire where Jews were safe despite them being treated horribly? Interesting. Very interesting.

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NukeAGayWhale4Jesus@reddit

Zionists are very reliable in one way: they always, always lie. The first lie is at least based on a source, though a bad one. The Newsweek article somehow manages to not even mention the Taba negotiations, which is where the "real deal" - the one that the Israelis walked away from - was so, so close. So that article is pure propaganda.

There are more lies in the Zionist's comment but I won't bother to address them because they aren't backed up by sources, let alone reliable sources.

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Afrat walked away from the first deal

Lie.

and declared war

Lie.

than wanted a new deal

Lie.

Prove me wrong with links to reliable sources. And BTW, "reliable sources" don't incude biased opinion columnists.

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TheGreatJingle@reddit

So you are claiming the taba and the camp David negotiations are the same ? If I’m lying that’s the claim you are making. That’s just not true.

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NukeAGayWhale4Jesus@reddit

So you are claiming the taba and the camp David negotiations are the same ? If I’m lying that’s the claim you are making. That’s just not true.

The Israelis and Palestinians weren't close to a deal at the end of the Camp David Summit. Even your extremely biased Newsweek article said "Clinton said, somewhat surprisingly, that he never expected to close the deal at Camp David." The only time they were close to a deal was at the end of the Taba negotiations, which the Israelis walked away from.

Also bill Clinton blamed him not the columnist for walking away . So .

The U.S. is a close ally of Israel. Of course he isn't going to blame his ally. Besides, as noted above, they weren't close to a deal.

Is the second infitiada not the same as war? That’s a semantic arguement .

The Second Intifada was not the start of the war; the war has been going on continuously, without a break, since at least 1967, with Israel relentlessly continuing its war crimes no matter what the Palestinians do.

TheGreatJingle@reddit

The don’t have the power to do so , but they have 100 percent tried repeatedly , failed and sworn to try again.

The popularly elected government of Hamas who has long ruled with support , support that is just starting to fracture .

And it’s funny because you believe in punishing normal Israelis for the actions of their government but you don’t believe in the same for Palestinians

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Fluffy-Republic8610@reddit

Popularly elected 20 years ago? The lies you tell yourself to justify killing kids in revenge. You think that will stop the psychopaths of Hamas because you make the mistake of thinking they and the Palestinians are the same.

I dont know where you got to your big brain idea that I'm in favour of punishing ordinary Israelis. I'm in favour of giving everyone their best chance at security by replacing Israel with a state along most standard non religious lines. Something like ataturks turkey with outside security. That's something that will give Israelis security which they can never have as it stands with Israel acting for them. All it will take is a few more psychos to explode a nuclear bomb in tel Aviv and Israel will be finished. It should be stretching for peace but instead it is stretching for destruction. I can only conclude is a project that doesn't work for its own people or the Palestinians.

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TheGreatJingle@reddit

Convince both Palestinians. To have a secular government and Israelis to believe them and a one state solution might happen. But the reality is you are pushing a second Rwanda

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Fluffy-Republic8610@reddit

The incumbants always say the alternative will be a massacre. They said it in south Africa, they said it in northern Ireland. In fact, peace deals prevent massacres. Because they are deals. They settle the tensions that build into massacres.

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TheGreatJingle@reddit

The peace in Northern Ireland keep separation.

The peace in South Africa caused large migration.

Meanwhile in Rwanda it literally did lead to a massacre.

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Fluffy-Republic8610@reddit

Tell me all about the peace deal that started the rwandan genocide. And what % of white left south Africa? And please tell me all about the separation in northern Ireland. That's one I know everything about. You say separation like you think I'm suggesting Jews and Arabs would need to live on the same streets and attend the same schools in a future one state.

This is going to be hilarious!

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Well maybe Isreal should just remove only 25 percent of Palestinians. Apparently that’s fine.

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Fluffy-Republic8610@reddit

Wouldn't you expect the previously advantaged side of a society to take opportunities elsewhere after a complete change on social contract? I would. I'd expect the disadvantaged side to have a much higher commitment rate to the new contract.

That's what I expect to happen in Israel too. Luckily for them many former Israelis will be welcome in very many western countries, including my own. There are lots of freedoms and benefits for both sides in a peace deal. The world will be relieved and grateful that the sorry Zionist experiment is over.

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TheGreatJingle@reddit

Ethnic cleansing is fine if people can leave lol.

So isreals ethnic cleansing is fine if we just get Syria to take them all I guess lol.

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Could we not address two point in that the Hamas force is losing IMMENSELY (thereby, making an equal treaty not SUPER favorable to the winning side is dumb. Country A would never accept an offer of a white peace to Country B if Country A’s military is literally surrounding Country B’s Capital).

Second, Israel wasn’t the one who randomly attacked, kidnapped, and raid Hamas border out of nowhere in October 7th.

Third. It’s fine if you don’t support the Israeli project (I certainly don’t, because I’m living in the US, why would I care), but to treat Israel differently than, say, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, or any ME states with the same loathsome behavior is unequal in it of itself. (Saudi’s raid on Yemen. Houthi blockage of the sea, Iraq invasion of Kuwait, Syria occupation of Lebanon, Turkey occupation of Syria). The damn region is a PvP server. Why would Israel be so much on the limelight?

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Maardten@reddit

Second, Israel wasn’t the one who randomly attacked, kidnapped, and raid Hamas border out of nowhere in October 7th.

True, they randomly attack, kidnap and raid Gaza and the West bank all day every day, not just one random day a couple of years ago.

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aWhiteWildLion@reddit

Palestinians don't deserve a state and it's better to let Trump just build towers all over Gaza

We know why the Jews were leaving, Arab hostility but I noticed you ducked my question.

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soyyoo@reddit

Israhell*

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stprnn@reddit

Terrorist state of Israel doing terrorists things with the support of the usual suspects. Hey let's make sure to send them more weapons right?

That for sure will help!

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cap123abc@reddit (OP)

“The families’ forum of the Israeli hostages on Wednesday said they were “horrified to wake up” to the news of the military operation being expanded.

“Instead of securing the release of the hostages through an agreement and ending the war, the Israeli government is sending more soldiers into Gaza to fight in the same places they have fought time and again,” the forum said in a statement.”

It was never about the hostages to the IDF.

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SunriseHolly@reddit

Sounds like they should release the hostages

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