How many of you believe Albanians migrated to neighboring countries?
Posted by Odd-Independent7679@reddit | AskBalkans | View on Reddit | 36 comments
Albanians have been native to their lands for millennia. It's been proven by historians, linguists, archeologists, and lately (and undoubtedly) by archeo-genetics.
The lands where Albanians have been native are today divided between Albania, Kosovo, N. Macedonia, Serbia, Montenegro and Greece.
Yet, I encounter here often people who think Albanians migrated to those lands.
There are many Albanian settlements in other counrries that were created due to Albanians migrating there, such as in Italy, Croatia, Bulgaria, Romania, Ukraine, and even Russia.
However, Albanians did not migrate (I think this needs to be stressed!) to the six countries above. Except for Greece, Albanians or their ancestors were living in those countries way before the arrival of Slavs.
thelobstersbrain@reddit
Albanians are undoubly native, but id say anyone in balkans are too. What makes albanians special is that they have conserved all these old traditions despite being under roman, byzantine and ottoman control for over centuries. If you look at the albanian language, u will find many words that are unique and derived only from illyrian, meanwhile slavic balkan countries have a slavic derived language. When it comes to dna, id say the slavucs also have or well had illyrian dna but over time with the mixing and the rise of slavic migration in the balkans, the people who inhabit the region share very little dna with illyrians, on the other hand, this did not occure with albanians. At the end of the day, all balkan countries are special and not being illyrian doesnt make u any less balkan.
Spervox@reddit
Asked by a guy who unironically thinks most Albanians are native in Kosovo đ
Odd-Independent7679@reddit (OP)
Since you, unfortunately, seem to still believe propaganda, it would be good for you to read my previous comments. Maybe they'll help clarify things for you.
Spervox@reddit
Read what? Dardanians and Illyrians gone 500 years before Slavs settled Balkan. These romanized natives were slavicized, that's why today most south Slavs have almost half native genetics. Most of today Kosovo Albanians settled Kosovo from Albania in the 15th century and later as Serbs were expelled in Hungary from falled Serbian Despotate at 1459. but managed only to retake the northern half of today's central Serbia later, so southern parts left empty. Ottomans settled Albanians and Slavs from both Macedonia (today Kosovo and southern Serbs).
Odd-Independent7679@reddit (OP)
I see. So, Serbs are the real Dardanians and Illyrians. While, Albanians came from whom? Who do you think were the ancestors of Albanians?
Spervox@reddit
Albanians are a mix of half romanized native tribes from southern Balkans.
Serbs are not "real Dardanians", but most likely Serbs and Macedonians have more Dardan origins than Albanians.
Odd-Independent7679@reddit (OP)
I see. So, which native tribes do Albanians come from? And in which region did these tribes live?
Spervox@reddit
Hard to say. Albanian identity is formed in today's central Albania. Most accepted theory is daco-moesian but that's only due to lack of preserved evidences of Illyrian language
Odd-Independent7679@reddit (OP)
I see. So, Serbs have Dardanian-Illyrian ancestry. However, we don't know who the ancestors of Albanians were.
But, we do know they were formed in today's central Albania.
Yet, one theory is that Dacians might be their ancestors. Do you know the territory where Dacians lived? Why don't you google it.
The other theory is Moesian? Now, google the territory where Moesians lived.
Did you do that? Do you still think that your thinking makes any sense?
Spervox@reddit
If Albanians are really daco-moesian it means Albanians are half romanized Thracians, who colonize south Balkan later but i think Albanians are mostly a mix of Illyrian half-romanized tribes from southern Balkans
Serbs are Slavs + slavicized natives. Kosovo was Slavic territory during the whole middle ages, logically today south Slavs have more Dardan origin than Albanians. If you are looking for traits of Dardan genes you should search in Vojvodina and Hungary as that was the places where most people settled from fallen Serbian Despotate.
Odd-Independent7679@reddit (OP)
Dude, do you realize that in 2019, they studied the genetics of 3 Illyrian settlements in Serbia?
By today's statistics, Albanians of Kosovo are at least 75% Paleo-Balkan. It's the same DNA that was found in ancient graves in Serbia. Both around the Danube, as late as 13th century, as well as in South Serbia.
Dardanians were an Illyrian-Thracian mix. 75% of Kosovo Albanians are Illyrian-Thracian.
There is now genetic proof that Albanians descent from Illyrians.
Kosovo was ruled by Serbs for 2 centuries. The population was still mainly Albanian.
The Balkans was ruled by Turks foe 5 centuries, but the population did not become Turkish because of that.
On the other hand, a max of 25% of Serbs have paleo-Balkan origin.
Spervox@reddit
No i don't. It's very unlikely to found literal Illyrian sceleton in Serbia especially nowdays. You can't be sure that sceleton were Illyrian or non-Illyrian.
And yet Dardanians were closer to Tribals and other Thracians
That could confirm daco-moesian theory of Albanian ancestor migration.
From 12th to 15th century. But was also under Bulgaria and other Slavic states. Ottoman census also confirm Slavic majority in Kosovo in 1455. Those people were expelled in next decade.
By your logic where all those people who lived in Syrmium, Naisus etc. after Slavic conquest? Are you still ignoring that Serbs are almost half native by origin?
https://i.imgur.com/UlyfEM7.jpeg
https://forum.krstarica.com/attachments/img-b45c9c66662ff7785d843d88f3625ff3-v-jpg.856957/
Odd-Independent7679@reddit (OP)
Read a little more, and you'll realize that you are wrong. Don't believe any calculator you see online. Look up scientific papers.
Unable-Stay-6478@reddit
The issue with some Albanian claims is that they attribute every Illyrian tribe to Albanians. While Albanians are native to the Balkans, the first historical mention of them appears in the 11th century, long after the Illyrians and Dardanians had disappeared from written records. Because of this, using the 'Dardania' name and symbolism for Kosovo is historically questionable and rather stupid.
Were Albanians the majority in Kosovo and southern Serbia before the Ottoman period? No, they were not. Their current majority status is a result of historical developments, particularly during Ottoman rule, which influenced demographic shifts. That is simply a historical reality.
Odd-Independent7679@reddit (OP)
See, you are mis-informed or un-informed, and then you spread bs like this.
In the 2nd century BC, the History of the World written by Polybius, mentions a location named Arbona (Ancient Greek: áŒÏÎČÏΜα; Latinised form: Arbo) in which some Illyrian troops, under Queen Teuta, scattered and fled to in order to escape the Romans. Arbona was perhaps an island in Liburnia or another location within Illyria.
The names Albanoi and Albanopolis have been attested in ancient funeral inscriptions in present-day North Macedonia. The toponym Albanopolis has been found on a funeral inscription in Gorno Sonje, near the city of Skopje (ancient Scupi), present-day North Macedonia. It dates to the end of the 1st century AD and the beginning of the 2nd century AD.
In the 2nd century AD, Ptolemy, the geographer and astronomer from Alexandria, drafted a map that shows the city of Albanopolis, located Northeast of Durrës) in the Roman province of Macedonia and the tribe of Albanoi, which were viewed as Illyrians by later historians.
There's more if you're interested.
That said, why does it matter when Albanians were mentioned? Do you see that you use bs claims to tell us you own our land?
Btw, there is mentioning of written Albanian in the 13th century. However, those who ruled us made everything in their hands to destroy any evidence. It's like Anglo-Americans saying to native Americans: But you weren't mentioned ever before the Spanish came. They must have brought you.
When were Serbs mentioned first? Ever asked yourself?
That said, do you think using Rascia as Serbs is more appropriate?
However, one source proving we were here before is a Serbian source. Stefan Nemanja says: we conquered Pulatum (which includes Metohija) from the Albanians.
Albanians were always the majority here. However, they became the absolute majority after Serbia ethnically cleansed Albanians from Northern Kosovo vilayet, and they were pushed South to modern Kosovo.
So, if you're gonna tell us to go back anywhere, you should know, a large percentage of Kosovo Albanians descent from modern Serbia.
Unable-Stay-6478@reddit
Easy bud, I already said you are native, didn't you read my comment?
Yes, I'm interested. Link me credible source for your claims.Â
In the 7th century. I'm aware of Slavic migrations.
Again, link me source that states Albanians were a majority before Ottomans. You probably won't find any.
No, I won't tell you to go back. Present time is present time. I don't have a problem with Albanians. Only with delussional people, regardless of ethnicity (yes, Serbs also).Â
No, but there was Great Serbian Migrations from Kosovo
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Migrations_of_the_Serbs?wprov=sfla1
That Serbs and Albanians are closer to each other genetically then they are to Dardanians, Illyrians, medieval Serbs or whatever.Â
Odd-Independent7679@reddit (OP)
That said, there is proof of Albanian expulsion and ethnic cleansing out of Kosovo. As well as proof of Serbian colonization of Kosovo.
I guess you don't want more sources than my previous comments?
Unable-Stay-6478@reddit
Nah, I will reply to all comments, am at work and can't dedicate time on reading carefully.
Literally everyone is calling it Great migrations of the Serbs. Period of ethnic cleansing came later - with persecution of Muslims during Ottoman contraction.
It really tells that Serbs and Albanians had historical interactions and intermarriages. The pattern is common among populations living in border regions or historically mixed areas.
Odd-Independent7679@reddit (OP)
In a patriarchal society, marriages don't lead men to identify with their wives' culture. The only way for groups of men to identify with the culture of the occupier is by assimilation.
E.g. only 9.8% of Albanians in Kosovo have Slavic haplogroups. Those are from Slavs having assimilated into Albanian (or raped Albanian women) around 1000 years ago. However, there are almost no newer Slavic or Serbian paternal haplogroups amongst Albanians.
If intermarriage was the reason, you would find Albanians who have Serbian ancestry in the last 500 years, but you do not.
Unable-Stay-6478@reddit
Skanderbeg's mother was of South Slavic, possibly Serbian ancestry. Voisava is pure Serbian name.Â
Odd-Independent7679@reddit (OP)
Lmao, was that an attempt to trigger me? What next, Skanderbeg himself is Serb, too?
Ever asked yourself why the need to spread bs like this? E.g. I (or most Albanians) don't spread such bs about Serbian historical figures.
My father's name was Slavic, too. I assure you he was not Slavic. My mother's name is Turkish. She has zero Turkish in her.
Claiming anyone with a Slavic name is some other bs Serbs do, and it needs to stop, too.
Unable-Stay-6478@reddit
I implied that his mother is of Slavic origin, why is that so incomprehensible to you? According to you, all Albanians are 100% pure Albanians? I didn't said he was Serb at all, stop spinning my words.Â
Odd-Independent7679@reddit (OP)
Again, why did you bring Skanderbeg's mother into the discussion? What was the point?
Unable-Stay-6478@reddit
You said I couldn't find:Â
And yet obviously there are Albanians with Serbian origin.
Odd-Independent7679@reddit (OP)
It seems you don't understand how it works.
Paternal haplogroups are passed from father to son. Since we live in a patriarchal world, it is paternal haplogroups that tell the ancestry of one group of people or another.
45% of Kosovo Serbs have Albanian paternal haplogroups. That tells you that at some point in their male line, they identified as Albanian.
Historically, the male didn't go to the brides family and assimilate in their culture. The opposite happened. So, no Albanian would have identified as Serbian, because they married a Serbian wife. Their kids would also identify with the father's family.
In the other hand, Serbs would have married Albanian women, too. Yet, it seems not many Serbs identify as Albanian today.
Hence, we know it was due to assimilation. Not inter-marriage.
That said, there is zero proof that Skanderbegs mother was Slavic, let alone Serbian. So, will you stop the bs.
Odd-Independent7679@reddit (OP)
Archeologic/others:
Koman Culture - In 1898 it was excavated in a large cemetery, near the Dalmatian Castle, in the village of Koman in Puka. Subsequently, a large number of similar cemeteries were discovered, about 30, spread mainly in Northern and Central Albania. The geographical distribution, typology, inventory and the same chronology of these cemeteries have led scholars to identify in them the early medieval Albanian culture, called "Kulture Koman" (VI-VIII century). In recent years, the discoveries of the "Koman Culture" have been made in the south of Albania and beyond the state borders, in Montenegro, Kosovo, Macedonia and Greece.
From what is known from the old Balkan populations territories (Greeks, Illyrians, Thracians, Dacians), the Albanian language is spoken in a region where Illyrian was spoken in ancient times.
There is no evidence of any major migration into Albanian territory since the records of Illyrian occupation. Because descent from Illyrians makes "geographical sense" and there is no linguistic or historical evidence proving a replacement, then the burden of proof lies on the side of those who would deny a connection of Albanian with Illyrian.
The Albanian tribal society has preserved the ancient Illyrian social structure based on tribal units.
Many of what remain as attested words to Illyrian have an Albanian explanation and also a number of Illyrian lexical items (toponyms, hydronyms, oronyms, anthroponyms, etc.) have been linked to Albanian.
Words borrowed from Latin date back before the Christian era, while the Illyrians on the territory of modern Albania were the first from the old Balkan populations to be conquered by Romans in 229â167 BC, the Thracians were conquered in 45 AD and the Dacians in 106 AD.
The ancient Illyrian place-names of the region have achieved their current form following Albanian phonetic rules.
The characteristics of the Albanian dialects Tosk and Geg in the treatment of the native and loanwords from other languages, have led to the conclusion that the dialectal split occurred after Christianisation of the region (4th century AD) and at the time of the Slavic migration to the Balkans or thereafter between the 6th to 7th century AD with the historic boundary between the Geg and Tosk dialects being the Shkumbin river which straddled the JireÄek line.
Cities whose names follow Albanian phonetic laws â such as Shtip (Ć tip), Shkupi (Skopje) and Nish (NiĆĄ) â lie in the areas, believed to historically been inhabited by Thracians, Paionians and Dardani; the latter is most often considered an Illyrian tribe by ancient historians. While there still is no clear picture of where the Illyrian-Thracian border was, NiĆĄ is mostly considered Illyrian territory.
Odd-Independent7679@reddit (OP)
a) In terms of linguistics, the pre-Indo-European substrate language spoken in the southern Balkans has probably influenced pre-Proto-Albanian, the ancestor idiom of Albanian. The extent of this linguistic impact cannot be determined with precision due to the uncertain position of Albanian among Paleo-Balkan languages and their scarce attestation. Some loanwords, however, have been proposed such as shegĂ« ("pomegranate") or lĂ«pjetĂ« ("orach", compare with Pre-Greek lĂĄpathon, λΏÏÎ±ÎžÎżÎœ, "monk's rhubarb"). Albanian is also the only language in the Balkans which has retained elements of the vigesimal numeral system - njĂ«zet ("twenty"), dyzet ("forty") - which was prevalent in the Pre-Indo-European languages of Europe as the Basque language which broadly uses vigesimal numeration, highlights.
This pre-Indo-European substratum has also been identified as one of the contributing cultures to the customs of Albanians.
b) Latin loans are particularly numerous and reflect different chronological layers. From Latin specifically, loans are dated to the period of 167 BCE to 400 CE. So, where did the Proto-Albanian speakers meat the Latin speakers?
Look at map 1. (https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/assets/4821916/Roman_Republic_Empire_map.gif) to see where the Roman Empire had spread by the first century. (The Roman Empire, explained in 40 maps - Vox)
Moreover, letâs see some Roman events that happened in the territory of todayâs Kosovo until the 1st century BC:
The Christian religious vocabulary of Albanian is mostly Latin as well including even the basic terms, leading Joseph (2018) to argue that Albanians were Christianized under Roman Catholic influence. Some scholars believe that the Latin influence over Albanian is of Eastern Romance origin, which would exclude Dalmatia as a place of origin. Adding to this the several hundred words in Romanian that are cognate only with Albanian cognates, these scholars assume that Romanians and Albanians lived in close proximity at one time. According to the historian Fine, an area where this might have happened is the Morava Valley (https://www.researchgate.net/figure/The-location-of-the-Morava-valley-in-the-Central-Balkans_fig1_330321590).
Because the Latin words common to only Romanian and Albanian are significantly less than those that are common to only Albanian and Western Romance, Mihaescu argues that the Albanian language evolved in a region with much greater contact to Western Romance regions than to Romanian-speaking regions, and located this region in present-day Albania, Kosovo and Western Macedonia, spanning east to Bitola and Pristina.
Madgearu concludes that it has been shown that in some areas a Latinate population that survived until at least the seventh century passed on local placenames, which had mixed characteristics of Eastern and Western Romance, into the Albanian language. Look at map 32 to see the region in the along the line that divides Western and Eastern Empires (https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/assets/4837836/dividedempire.jpg).
c) Greek loans have various chronological origins, with two distinct periods. The earliest Greek loans began to enter the Albanian language at circa 600 BCE, and are of Doric provenance. Joseph argues that this stratum reflects contacts between Greeks and Proto-Albanians from the 8th century BCE onward, with the Greeks being either colonists on the Adriatic coast or Greek merchants inland in the Balkans. The second wave of Greek loans began after the split of the Roman empire in 395 and continued throughout the Byzantine, Ottoman and modern periods.
Dorian Greeks settled in Illyria before 2000 BC, ancient regions of the Balkan peninsula occupied by Indo-European-speaking tribes, including the Dalmatians and Pannonians. Warlike and piratical, they withstood (6th cent. B.C.) Greeks attracted by their iron mines and later attacks by Macedonians. The Romans conquered them and set up (168-167 B.C.) the province of Illyricum. (To see the regions of Dalmatia, Pannonia, Macedonia and Greece, visit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Dalmatia#/media/File:Roman_provinces_of_Illyricum,_Macedonia,_Dacia,_Moesia,_Pannonia_and_Thracia.jpg)
d) Although the Balkans had been raided by Slavic tribes, the early Slavic settlement and power in Kosovo was not big, until the region was later absorbed into the Bulgarian Empire in the 850s, where Christianity and a Byzantine-Slavic culture was cemented in the region.
Wilkes holds that the Slavic loans in Albanian suggest that contacts between the two populations took place when Albanians dwelt in forests 600â900 metres above sea level (for reference: Prishtina - Elevation: 652 m). Rusakov notes that almost all lexemes related to seamanship in the Albanian language are loan-words, which may indicate that speakers of the proto-language did not live on the Adriatic coast or in close proximity to it. The contacts began after the South Slavic invasion into the Balkans in the 6th and 7th centuries. Slavic invasion probably shaped the present geographic spread of the Albanians. It is likely that Albanians took refuge in the mountainous areas of northern and central Albania, eastern Montenegro, western North Macedonia and Kosovo. Long-standing contact between Slavs and Albanians might have been common in mountain passages and agriculture or fishing areas, in particular in the valleys of the White and Black branches of the Drin and around the ShkodĂ«r and Ohrid lakes. The contact with one another in these areas have caused many changes in Slavic and Albanian local dialects.
Odd-Independent7679@reddit (OP)
The region of Kosovo was originally inhabited by Thracians, and subsequently by Illyrians and Celts.
The main theories on Albanian origins all suppose a Paleo-Balkanic main origin, but they vary between attributing this origin to Illyrians, Thracians, Dacians, or another Paleo-Balkan people.
Those who argue in favour of an Illyrian origin maintain that the indigenous Illyrian tribes dwelling in South Illyria went up into the mountains when Slavs occupied the lowlands, while another version of this hypothesis states that the Albanians are the descendants of Illyrian tribes located between Dalmatia and the Danube who spilled south.
Scholars who support a Dacian origin maintain on their side that Albanians moved southwards between the 3rd and 6th centuries AD from the Moesian area, in present-day Romania.
Those that argue instead for a Thracian origin and maintain that the proto-Albanians are to be located in the area between NiĆĄ, Skopje, Sofia and Albania or between the Rhodope and Balkan Mountains, from which they moved to present-day Albania before the arrival of the Slavs.
Odd-Independent7679@reddit (OP)
You said I am native, yet somehow felt the need to say: Albanians were first mentioned in the 11th century. Which is not true.
You have 300 sources in the sources or bibliography section: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Albanians
As for evidence:
Genetic:
"Furthermore, several Roman-era samples with a West Balkan autosomal profile [(Croatia: Sipar, Ć Äitarjevo); Serbia (Viminacium)] also harboured E-V13. This does not exclude a Thracian origin, as the historical region of Dardania (roughly modern Kosovo, southern Serbia, and western North Macedonia) is recorded as a zone of linguistic contact between âIllyrianâ and âDaco-Thracianâ groups (Fig. S7) (1, 7). It is therefore likely that the population that introduced E-V13 into Albanians would plot close to Roman era West Balkan groups. "
"E-V13 and J2-M12 (the parent clade of J-M172), both indicate a particular "range expansion in the Bronze Age of southeastern Europeâ. R1b, meanwhile, has been associated with the spread of Indo-European languages in Europe. Within the Balkans, all three have a local peak in Kosovo....
Haplogroups in the modern Albanian population is dominated by E-V13 (44% of Albanians in Kosovo), which first expanded into Europe some 5300 years ago. The current distribution of this lineage might be the result of several demographic expansions from the Balkans, such as that associated with the Balkan Bronze Age, and more recently, during the Roman era with the so-called "rise of Illyrican soldiery".
The second haplogroup most often found among the Albanians of Kosovo is R1b, with 21%. Looking at todayâs distribution of R1b-Z2103/BY611 and its sub-branches, one might speculate that the shift from the Steppes to the Mediterranean must have occurred around 3300-4600 years ago.
Y haplogroup J in the modern Balkans is mainly represented by the sub-clade J2b. Carriers of J2b-L283 (17% of the Albanians in Kosovo) must have moved to the Balkans between the Neolithic and Bronze Ages (7000-9000 years ago).
Ancient graves found in Croatia dating back to the Bronze Age were found to also belong to the Y-chromosomes J2b2-L283 and R1b-Z2103, the latter of which was assigned to VuÄedol culture. The findings are believed possibly to be from Proto-Illyrian migrations to the Balkans.
I am dividing the rest of evidence, as most probably they are going to remove this comment due to mentioning genetics.
VirnaDrakou@reddit
All rights for pre indo europeans,
Indo-Europeans return back to your lands bring pre-indo europeanism baco
Odd-Independent7679@reddit (OP)
I'm safe then. Have pre-indo-european DNA.
Adventurous-Pause720@reddit
Basque supremacy?
BamBumKiofte23@reddit
We've all migrated here, or to word this more carefully, somewhere along the lines of time all of our ancestors were migrants to this land. Albanians, Slavs, Greeks, Turks, Romans, what have you. Competing about who's ancestors migrated here first is bullshit. It's even more bullshit when people try to bring DNA in to this.
Greeks and Albanians are the worst offenders when it comes to this type of bullshit-peddling: "But we were here first, this means we get a cookie!". No, it means absolutely nothing after centuries of intermixing and when all of our countries are facing more serious issues we can solve now instead of turning our gaze backwards for the sake of one-upping the neighbors.
Is tracking movements of ancient or medieval people interesting? I guess yes, the nuances can be interesting or even fascinating. But does it really matter for where we are today? To me it doesn't, but everyone is entitled to their opinion.
Odd-Independent7679@reddit (OP)
Yet, our neighbors believe we migrated to those countries 25 years ago, or a max of 500 years ago (under Ottomans) and I often see comments of "go back to Albania if you don't like it there".
I think those migrating patterns you mention need to be clarified.
That said, why not bring DNA into this? It is the only undoubtful proof and way more accurate than history or archeology. So, I am really stunned by your aversity to genetic science. What's next, we're gonna ban mentioning archeology and history, too?
If your ancestors lived in one place, no matter what language they spoke, or what culture or religion they had, you belong to that land. You are native there. You were born there, as were your parents and their parents, and theirs...
On the other hand, speaking the language or having a certain religion/culture similar or the same to that of people living there before, does not make you lords of particular land. It makes you people who at some point in history started following certain religion, for example, but never lords of other people's home or land.
And no, Albanians are absolutely not the worst in such discussions. Albanian inhabited lands have been divided in 6 countries, Albanians' ancestors have been in the Balkans for 4-9k years ago. Yet, we still hear "go back to Albania". I never was there, my ancestors never were there. We've been here (in my case, in Kosovo) for millenia. This needs to be clarified.
BamBumKiofte23@reddit
Your neighbors aren't a hive mind and pretending that they are is step 1 in the long process of using an Us-VS-Them mindset that gets you trading railing replies here, ironically with other ethnicity-obsessed users. Yes, some extremist Greeks, Serbs and Macedonians use that rhetoric, but they're the exception and not the rule. It's known that extreme arguments breed more extreme arguments, though, and you're never too far away from them in a Balkan Internet forum.
We have that rule in place because people seem to get into endless arguments not because they're fascinated by the tools or the data when it comes to genetics, but in yet more efforts to bully, bait, troll and harass others. To phrase this in a more direct way: 95 out of 100 genetics posts or comment chains end up as baits or flame wars. Talk about "undoubtful proofs" then, when all they do is generate unceasing discord...
My ancestors (pretty much all of them, with a Thracian exception) all came from what is today Turkey's Black Sea coast. I certainly do not belong to that land and do not see it through rosy-tinted lenses. I was born, raised and live in North Greece and couldn't care about a place I've never been to if a court ordered me to. Even if I'm a freak occurrence and a statistical margin, I'm still here to tell you your logic isn't universal, or even sound.
My brother in ire, Albanians and Greeks are the absolute worst when it comes to dick-measuring origin contests online. I'll even point out that Greeks take the cake home and fuck it twice before eating it. All of those "we've been here for the X amount of centuries" are laughable given that ethnicity, religion and even regional culture and customs have been gradients moving with the wind.
Odd-Independent7679@reddit (OP)
And, I yet have to see a Serb accept that Albanians are native to Kosovo, or Macedonian accept that Albanians are native to Macedonia.
You think genetic discussions are the only theme that generates discord? How about history, politics etc? Are we going to ban them, too? Banning discussions about genetics seems to me to be a way to appease some people here who don't want to hear about the truth, and so are able to deny anything that doesn't go to their liking.
How is my logic not sound? The land where I was born and tens of generations of my ancestors before me, does not prove to you that I belong here, in this land? How does that go against your point of belonging where you were born?
Albanians only do it when they encounter statements such as: Go back to Albania. Which we're fed up of. I don't think anyone tells Greeks to f.. off from their homeland.