Gas Mustang Sales Crash 32% In Q1 But Mach-E And Bronco Are Killing It
Posted by The_Flying_Sausage@reddit | cars | View on Reddit | 214 comments
Posted by The_Flying_Sausage@reddit | cars | View on Reddit | 214 comments
Colonel_Lechuga@reddit
They started charging $50K for base model Mustang GTs in this economy while offering to eat 0% APR offers to try to sell the failing Mach-E. Kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy…
ThMogget@reddit
You gotta figure in the carbon credits difference there. One drags down your profitability on a number of levels and the other makes money.
Colonel_Lechuga@reddit
Oh yeah, sports cars have never been profitable for any company, and Ford wouldn’t be able to make Mustangs if they weren’t selling more Broncos and Mach-Es. Still though, this is kind of a “no shit” story to me, because it’s so largely created by Ford’s purposeful actions, and therefore comparing the Mustang and the Mach-E sales in this way is mostly silly to me. Good to hear the Bronco is doing well now that they brought its pricing closer to Earth, though.
ThMogget@reddit
Its less silly when you realize that we were flooded with “not a real mustang, and this mustang-quick electric crossover is so insulting to the name that no one will buy it”.
Colonel_Lechuga@reddit
It is silly when you realize they had to incentivize the shit out of the Mach-E to start moving units. For the record, it most certainly isn’t a ‘real’ Mustang, but I don’t think any serious person thought that Ford’s decision to bastardize the Mustang name into a marketing tool for a completely different vehicle would be the downfall of the Mach-E. The snag was always the fact that it was an EV, and it released at a time when Tesla was on top of the world in terms of EV market share. The two vehicles are for two entirely different markets of consumers, which is precisely why it isn’t a ‘real’ Mustang. And to be clear, that isn’t an insult to anybody who buys a Mach-E, it’s a super nice car imo.
The point is, how many people do you really think are out there genuinely debating “Hmmm… I’m really interested in a V8, stick shift, sports coupe that barely has four seats but maybe what I really want is a EV crossover that also has a Mustang badge on it. What should I do??” Nobody is asking themselves that question. Nobody is walking into a Ford dealership genuinely unsure if they wanted a sports coupe or an SUV/crossover before they walked through the door. The Mach-E is a competitor to the Mustang in the same sense that the F-150 is, which is not at all; they’re just made by the same company so both of their sales contribute to the same bottom line.
ThMogget@reddit
I guess not. I was a different person by then. I used to drive a souped-up two-door 350z that I raced against Mustangs, and now that I have kids I still want Mustang-ish go but need utility and the Mach E is perfect for me. So I imagine that Mustang buyers might go between the two depending on like use case, and maybe on the fence about if they really need the extra space in their work commuter depending on the weekends.
All of us performance car buyers are still here, we just need one car to do it all. See discussion at about 13 min in. https://youtu.be/yA6AiyZP3H8?si=MkNr7SAVh5Usyrk5
In some brands, the fact that the track focused M3 has no back seats and the two door M3 that has no back doors and the four-door M3 all share the same name bothers no one, and M3 buyers really do consider how much practicality they want with their tyre smoke. But the Mach E not being Mustangy enough does not stop it from appealing to Mustang buyers who could shove kids in the undersized back seat on the weekend… if they had to… but maybe should just get a Mach E.
Colonel_Lechuga@reddit
Will there be some ‘real’ Mustang people transitioning into a new season of life that demands a more utility focused vehicle that a drawn to the Mach-E because Ford put a Mustang badge on it? No doubt. That’s why I believe that, even though it was a stab and a twist in the heart of 60 years of legacy and heritage behind the name, it was a pretty fucking smart marketing strategy. But that Mach-E purchase you’re considering is never going to lose to a proper S650 Mustang, is it? Maybe you’ll get an Explorer ST. Maybe you’ll get a Tesla Model Y. But you’re not going to be buying a ‘real’ Mustang, not because you’re lame, but because the ‘real’ Mustang is completely different from the car you’re shopping for. (Side note: I see you currently drive a Tesla Model 3? Super curious as to why the Mach-E has caught your attention over say a Model Y!)
Now comparing to the M3 and why that community can accept four doors, two seats, and everything offered in between in the M3 lineup: They have different flavors, yes, but it’s the same or similar suspension, chassis, and drivetrain across the board, right? That’s why their community is accepting of any flavor that met the individual members needs. They may not need the same amount of doors or space, but the core reasons they all enjoy the M3 are the same, and that’s why they’re all in the same community, you know? Now compare the Mach-E and the Mustang… They aren’t the same cars in any respect other than name. Someone who bought a Mach-E did so for completely different reasons than someone who bought an S650 Mustang. And again, while some may be Mustang “Expats”, a lot more of them probably just wanted an EV crossover that wasn’t a Tesla (for one reason or another). That’s why the Mustang community doesn’t ‘accept’ the Mach-E. The two different owners enjoy their different cars for totally different reasons, and there’s nothing to relate to, really.
ThMogget@reddit
I am wanting a do-it all car. Its gotta be quick, attractive, fun to drive, fit a family of 4 and their stuff, make it up my steep driveway, and be equally at home on the interstate as dirt back roads with ruts.
The Model 3 did all that except the offroadyness. I have a lift kit on mine so it clears the driveway.
The Model Y adds space where I don’t need it, looks goofy, and has zero off-road pretensions.
A Mach E Rally (and even more lift kit) is the perfect thing. Looks rad, drives good, hatchback, quick.
Also interested in the quicker version of the Chevy Equinox, but will it be fun to drive?
Colonel_Lechuga@reddit
Do you have any interest in hybrid drivetrains (or all gas)? What do you think about things like the Mach-E having a more traditional interior than Teslas do with things like physical buttons?
ThMogget@reddit
I have always liked Ford interiors and Ford feel.
I went from turbos to superchargers to V8 cars chasing throttle response. After I driving electric I cannot go back.
Brilliant_Coffee7619@reddit
This sounds like misinformation
avoidhugeships@reddit
Ford just missed a bit with the new Mustang. Interior is bland like everything else with tacked on tablets. Exterior is ok but the previous 2 versions are just much better looking. They got rid of manual and paddle shifters on the Ecoboost. It has the same performance as previous version. There is just no reason for current owners to want to make the switch. It's also price increases. I hope Ford gets the right message here.
2Drogdar2Furious@reddit
Myself and quite a few others think the previous gen looks better... that's got to have some impact as well. It's not new BMW ugly but it's not attractive either...
jpsolberg33@reddit
💯.. the S550 is so nice. I honestly haven't met anyone who actually thinks the 650 has a better design.
Lucreth2@reddit
The front of the 650 is better than the base and gt 550.
Everything else is better on the 550, inside and out.
UnnamedStaplesDrone@reddit
Nah. Looks like they added a bunch of black plastic and Honda accord headlights to the front end
Lucreth2@reddit
Kind of, but the refreshed s550 was a bit wonky and the release 550 was boring.
Stuff like the RTR and Shelby versions really spiced it up and were 10/10 visually but that's not attainable for most
xClapThemCheeks@reddit
Had 2 s550s and test drove an s650. Literally felt identical lol I wouldn’t by a new mustang
uberdosage@reddit
I like the front end better. The rear looks good with the black spoiler from the PP, but awful without it. The rear 3/4 haunches look great. With clear tail lights to get rid of the cheap plastic red, it looks quite nice.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Mustang/comments/1ilubbx/s650_rear_end/
For the same price I'd take the S650.
Larcya@reddit
Legitimately if I was looking for a mustang, I'd look for an S550 over buying new.
And I don't mind the interior that much on the new one but I prefer the old one.
And I have a 2024 KIA Sportage, which has a similar layout to the mustangs 2 screens so that says a lot.
velociraptorfarmer@reddit
You're not alone there. Something about the new version just makes it look bloated and ugly to me, I just don't know what it is.
thelowkeyman@reddit
Except BMWs are selling like hot cakes, so it’s just the reddit crowd that hates the “beaver front”
2Drogdar2Furious@reddit
I guess so... everytime I see one I'm shocked someone was willing to buy one. And I see one nearly every day lol.
thelowkeyman@reddit
I like them and can’t wait for a few years from now to upgrade to a current M240i or M440i.
tharussianphil@reddit
Yea it looks like a rental in every trim somehow way worse than prior gens
D3Rpy_Un1c0Rn107@reddit
Sorry to go against reddits opinion but the s650 feels so much nicer on the interior, definitely a step up minus the no physical ac controls, exterior I’d say the s550 still looks better but that’s not to say the new one looks bad at all
Mojave_Idiot@reddit
I’ve felt this way about this segment for going on 10 years now.
Vhozite@reddit
Same dude. I’m getting to the point in my life/career where a new car is on the table. The Mustang is my favorite line I want to want a new one but outside of the GT350 Ford just hasn’t moved the needle for me the last 2 gens.
Objectively the S650 is better than my car in every way. But subjectively I like the exterior AND interior less than my car, and I don’t care about the higher HP or technology improvements. I don’t even think the price is unreasonable but there is no reason for me to want to pay for it either.
tyrannosaurus_r@reddit
They got rid of the damn paddles, too? That’s insane, it’s a sports car!
Osama_Bin_Drankin@reddit
You have to get the performance pack to get the paddles on the ecoboost now. It's ridiculous, lol.
Wabbit_Wampage@reddit
That's so stupid. It would probably be almost as cheap to keep them, since they have to create a new configuration and probably do something to cover up the gaps where the shifters would be. This is definitely ford just saying "fuck you" to their potential buyers for no reason.
AwesomeBantha@reddit
my dad’s 2012 hyundai sonata has paddle shifters
Wabbit_Wampage@reddit
Wait, they got rid of the paddle shifters for automatic ecoboosts? WHY??
g0atm3a1@reddit
Definitely a huge step backwards in exterior design. What the hell were they thinking?
ImAbleToReadIPromise@reddit
No shit the gas mustangs are failing. A base GT starts at $46k.
Affectionate_Mud4516@reddit
My 21 401a 6-speed fastback was 46k with like all the non performance options and that was just over 3 years ago.
JALbert@reddit
$46k in 2021 was worth $56k today.
I'm not saying everyone's salary kept up with inflation but this is hardly a Ford Mustang specific issue.
UnnamedStaplesDrone@reddit
lol you’ve summed up all the pricing complaints. Dummies comparing things from years ago when we’ve had crazy inflation due to Covid and supply chain issues.
Compy222@reddit
Not to ignite this Camaro vs. Mustang debate, but a used 1LE, which is a much, much more capable car than the new base GT and can be had with almost zero miles/near new for 40-45k.
Mojave_Idiot@reddit
Yeah but visibility trunk opening generic GM interior complaints mid cycle refresh opinions
Alright bases covered.
caterham09@reddit
Having owned both a camaro and a mustang, the Ford was far easier to live with every day. It was honestly crazy the second I test drove the mustang I knew I liked it better. It was softer sure and didn't feel nearly as planted, but as a daily driver, I never felt like I had to make sacrifices.
Another thing worth mentioning is that you can get a used mach 1 for pretty much the same price as an ss1le. Those are much closer comparisons imo and would be at the top of my list if I was looking for a high trim American sports car to daily.
Mojave_Idiot@reddit
Had similar experience driving them both, but just found the GT to be unacceptable in 2016 in contrast to the SS. It’s just a sliding scale of tolerance and maybe a bit of athleticism. I own and have owned a wide range of vehicles and never really had a second thought about my Camaro over the past decade.
caterham09@reddit
Yeah truthfully the standard GT is a lot less athletic feeling than the SS camaro. Frankly it's not actually that close either. I had not driven the performance pack mustang, but I have driven both a mach 1 and a gt350 and both feel like a significant step up from the base GT.
I think those two are really worthy sports cars (the gt350 in particular is incredible but not a great daily). Those I think are worth cross shopping for potential 1LE owners.
UnnamedStaplesDrone@reddit
The gt needs about $2k in suspension and subframe reinforcement to get it to handle without it feeling like a floppy pos in hard driving
Mojave_Idiot@reddit
That they’re both available with a Tremec is a huge consideration as well.
GimmeChickenBlasters@reddit
Not even close. Mach 1's are a minimum of $10k+ more. Plenty of <20k mile SS 1LE's in the mid $30k's. The only Mach 1's you'll find in the mid $40k's have 50k+ miles.
randeus@reddit
Eh, I was looking at SS 1LE and a low mileage used one is definitely going to go for above 45k on average right now for obvious reasons.
Nero_Wolff@reddit
Alternatively just buy a barely used S550 for a lot less money. There really arent any tangible performance benefits of the S650 over S550
G0TouchGrass420@reddit
there are a few engineering changes to the gen 4 coyote tho. One big example is they switch from oil pump gears that had issues failing to kevlar belt driven oil pump
Nero_Wolff@reddit
Good point but im sure upgrading the oil pump gears or the entire oil pump altogether is cheaper than buying an equivalent S650
G0TouchGrass420@reddit
questionable lol the oil pump gear is internal so that means a complete engine pull and disassemle to get to it.
Nero_Wolff@reddit
I know some folks upgraded them for GT350s and i dont recall them having to pull the voodoo to do so, but i could be wrong so I’ll take your word for it
totallybag@reddit
Yes but you can actually see out if the mustang.
Compy222@reddit
Owned a Camaro, yes the mustang is better but digital rear view and blind spot sensors made it a non issue.
Robinhoodie5@reddit
I paid $42k for my brand new '23 1SS 1LE in 2023 when it was confirmed that it was coming to an end and the mustang was getting redesigned. I absolutely saw this coming from a mile away and couldn't be happier that I bought it when I did.
Zappiticas@reddit
Yep straight up. Mustangs always sold well because they were an affordable performance car. They jumped up way too high in price to get the same customers they always did before.
OldManBearPig@reddit
I understand this sub has a "no politics rule," but it's getting extremely difficult lately to not intermingle politics discussion with car discussion.
I don't understand how we discuss one of the most iconic American cars not being purchasable by the average American consumer without talking about the economy at large.
dont_ama_73@reddit
Was the price 2 years ago much much lower?
exodus3252@reddit
My '21 GT was loaded to the gills with every non-performance option. 401A premium, sound upgrade, digital dash, active exhaust, etc. Basically everything except the performance packs. When I bought it in '22, it was $46,xxx. Now, you get a stripper model for the same cost.
It's wild to me.
UnnamedStaplesDrone@reddit
I’ve seen some dealers mark down the base gt to 38k which is pretty wild for the engine performance you get. Of course the car will probably try to kill you with the 235 all seasons from the base model but that’d be a deal nonetheless
ChuckFinley_is4Ever@reddit
My ‘19 GT had 400A, PP1, active exhaust, and built-in nav. Msrp was $46K. I was OTD at a hair over $40K. Can’t imagine being in the market for a new one now. Any new Shelby or similar high performance version will probably be knocking on the door on $100K if it keeps going this route.
OldManBearPig@reddit
There are more factors than just the price of the car in a vacuum - like the amount of disposable income held by average people. If that decreases, the price staying the same means it's effectively more expensive despite being the same.
strangway@reddit
Yeah, if we can’t talk about controversial topics on the internet, where can we?
austinzone813@reddit
I’ve been around long enough to clearly remember what an uncensored internet sounds like.
Reddit has become one of the most awful places. It censors out opinions it doesn’t like but not by the users themselves but by unelected mods and admins. There is no transparency in this.
So when you goto a sub about politics, cars, technology, your local city you just assume it’s “everyone” chatting and you’ll hear all opinions.
Reddit is a terrible platform.
Fact0ry0fSadness@reddit
Reddit is such a shithole compared to what it was 10, even 5 years ago. I wish there was a viable alternative because its become so awful.
I remember when reddit used to be a place for at least somewhat intelligent discussion. Now most of the main subs are no better than Instagram/YouTube/Quora comments.
Longjumping_Hyena_52@reddit
I feel like YouTube Is better but I suppose it probably depends on the channel
uberdosage@reddit
Go back to 4chan then
austinzone813@reddit
Don't you "get" it?
When you shove people off your platform they eventually end up somewhere. Do you know what those places are called? They're called "containment boards". There, with little to no censorship, ideas can be shared. Jokes can be had. Hate can spew. Garbage and lies occur all the time. Yet given enough time truths rise from the chaos.
Why do you think your post is downvoted and others upvoted?
Moderation that does not possess a mechanism of ensuring said management is fair and balanced results in bias.
uberdosage@reddit
Again, if you find the "truth" coming out of the containment boards is better than by all means search there. I'm sorry but racism, holocaust denial, and homophobic rhetoric are not integral to human communication and innovation, and their inclusion does not foster open minded civil discussion.
I get your point that we have an unelected class monitoring the content, but you are romanticizing what the good parts about the early days of the internet were. The answer to an unelected monitoring class is not anarchy.
Truth does not rise from sewer goop. The more misinformation that exists on the internet the more it spreads. This has been shown over and over again. Russian agents and bots spreading misinformation as part of a political agenda is not fueling peer reviewed discussion. It only breeds misinformation which people spread over and over again.
Truth does not rise from the chaos in the information age. The most common and loudest voices rise from the chaos. Yes, over moderation to stamp out real discussion is of course in serious issue. Just look at the conservative subreddit which stamps outs any dissenting opinion, even by long term existing members.
Why do you think debates have monitors in the first place? Because otherwise it results in one party constantly talking over the other as suited to their disposition.
strangway@reddit
I do believe in some community management, and content moderation. But I think politics shouldn’t be considered taboo just because people will argue. Let them.
Teledildonic@reddit
The last couple of Tesla threads were like that. Automod deleted like half the comments then the whole thing was locked...like what the fuck do you expect right now? The company is owned by a dude trying to run the government, you cannot untangle politics from them now.
Zappiticas@reddit
That one cracked me up because it was inherently political.
Or the discussions about tariffs causing a rise in vehicle prices. Literally caused directly by politics.
su1ac0@reddit
I don't understand why it's now political. This sub has done nothing but complain about the cost of new cars skyrocketing for years.
And now it's political? The base Mustang GT is the same price as it was last year.
RiftHunter4@reddit
It's like trying to talk about Mercedes-Benz in the 40s. There's things to discuss, but there's an elephant in the room.
Mimical@reddit
You sly crafty man. I appreciate this.
gimpwiz@reddit
You're right.
That said, long-term regulars here have been thankful to keep the politics out to the extent possible, for at least ten years. People just wanna do happy hobby stuff, not angry hobby stuff. Where it's impossible to untangle it, what ends up happening is a ton of flaming and shit flinging and that ruins decent communities in a hurry.
MaroonIsBestColor@reddit
I agree but dude…a lot has changed in 10 years
gimpwiz@reddit
You don't need to be sorry, but you can flame people in a different sub.
Fact0ry0fSadness@reddit
I think the vote ratios of these comments tell a different story. Who made you the arbiter of what people come to this sub for?
gimpwiz@reddit
Repeated and regular "state of the sub" discussions, but look, if the next time we run one of those we find that all the oldheads and contributing members have quit reddit and everyone left just wants to talk about a specific president all day, we'll just quit and turn it over to people who want it to be a shitfest, no problem.
jaybigtuna123@reddit
How are people supposed to enjoy the hobby when parts are about to skyrocket? That’s what takes my happy hobby to an angry hobby.
Bonerchill@reddit
Policy isn’t politics.
Wealth transfer is the result of policy. Rates of poverty are the result of policy.
There has been a systematic failure of the American government to invest in itself, and in the American people, like other countries or even like itself during the post-war boom period.
Yes, the world as a whole is hugely different, but this is not what winning looks like.
MaybeNext-Monday@reddit
Policy is by definition solely politics, this is the goofiest cope
Bonerchill@reddit
What cope?
The subreddit has a “policy, not politics” rule. If we talk policy without mentioning parties or politicians, we’re legit.
That’s my point and only my point.
MaybeNext-Monday@reddit
Yeah, and it’s a stupid rule, because policy is politics.
strangway@reddit
Policy is definitely politics, how isn’t it?
I agree with all the other stuff you said.
Bonerchill@reddit
For the purposes of discourse within this subreddit, no.
HAL_9OOO_@reddit
BOFE SIDES
_KoingWolf_@reddit
It's because people can't have nuanced discussions and it revolves into "my team vs their team" But almost everyone agrees on the same broad points and issues, they get sidetracked by the little meaningless wins, while none of the broad points get addressed competently, if at all.
So now we sit with $45K base Mustangs you'd have to be either very well off or a financial lunatic to purchase.
Scurro@reddit
Tribalism. Politics is reverting to tribalism. You are either for us or against us.
Reddit and social media amplifies this problem.
Zappiticas@reddit
I’m not so sure that everyone agrees on the same broad points and issues. Or for that matter that people even exist in the same reality anymore
cat_prophecy@reddit
The GT is now the top dog. Most people buying mustangs are buying them with V6s and 4 cyls which are somewhat affordable -ish.
PBandC_NIG@reddit
Ford was going to jack up their prices regardless of the situation of the US economy.
AlfredAnon@reddit
It's one sub. You have a lot of outlets for this discourse. I've never found it hard to stick to talking cars. Because cars are awesome.
OldManBearPig@reddit
I don't disagree, but this specific post is about Mustang sales. It isn't about Mustang performance, or styling, or a discussion about the engineers who made it. It's about sales, specifically.
AndroidUser37@reddit
You don't have to be specific about it. A simple "oh I think the current economic downturn may negatively affect sales". Very simple, and doesn't require a tangerine related rant.
CharlesBronsonsHair@reddit
It's not political to acknowledge that costs in America have risen faster than wages. It's a trend decades in the making, it's happened under both parties as president and in Congress.
acideater@reddit
They have Ecoboost mustangs that start at 30k. Top trims are always expensive
T-Baaller@reddit
I toyed with buying the EB mustang as an alternative to my car, but it cost more for a rental spec, consumables for tracking would be a lot more money, and it'd have more stigma being a "base model" and auto-only.
these factors make it a hard sell compared to a new twin.
West_Independent2551@reddit
Yeah, the only reason I've been considering an eco post over a twin is because I've been looking at cars that are 5-10 years old, and the Mustang still had a manual black then and depreciates much faster.
Nhojj_Whyte@reddit
Just FWIW the Eco isn't auto only and the stigma is kinda only a myth perpetuated online. I've talked numerous people irl, including total strangers, and anytime they've asked the question and I've had to somewhat defeatedly tell them it's just the eco or 4cyl I've usually been met with something like "isn't that still like 300hp though?" Most "normies" are impressed because it's still a mustang and it's fast to them, and most mustang guys that aren't total douches will still respect that it's more a mustang than the Mach E, at worst. It helps that its genuinely faster, especially around a track, than most older generations because technology has come so far. I saw a video RTR did where they tested a tuned, setup Eco vs one of their like spec 5 GTs on their very twisty little course and it was very close because the supercharged GT was so much heavier and the 2-300 extra hp barely mattered around so many tight corners.
All that to say though, if you're genuinely tracking a lot you probably made the right call. I know the BRZ had some oil starvation issues that may or may not have been fixed/fixable, but consumables would definitely be cheaper. I think even the Eco needs bigger tires than the rental spec it comes with, so new wheels and bigger tires aren't cheap. Plus going through brakes and tires faster because more weight, and again base size brakes might not cut it for long, serious track days. By the time you optioned or added that stuff you almost might as well of gotten the GT with its bigger stock brakes and usually bigger stock wheels by default.
T-Baaller@reddit
Yeah I think stigma isn't the best description of what I mean. I don't have a fundamental issue with a turbo-4, I liked the Focus RS with mostly the same engine. I would enjoy that amount of power and that kind of noise in a 2dr coupe very much.
For me it's more a feeling is the base engine isn't the one the chassis is mainly developed for, a feeling the car was designed for the more powerful engines and leading to more tires, more weight than needed if the target is more like 360hp.
Duke_of_Diet_Dew@reddit
Base GT is not a "top trim", not now, not ever.
RiftHunter4@reddit
Even the Ecoboost is hard to find at a decent price. By the time you add things to not make it a rental car, it's in the $40k's.
Jnaythus@reddit
The new Ecoboost is pretty quick too. I wish Ford had worked a bit more on the sound though.
Mojave_Idiot@reddit
It’s tough to make anything with a turbo and modern emissions sound much better than a Dyson.
Jnaythus@reddit
The Fiat 500 Abarth demonstrates it's possible.
Mojave_Idiot@reddit
Ok, it’s tough to make anything with a not tiny turbo sound good and not be hilariously loud.
roman_maverik@reddit
Mr. balloons. Mr. balloon hands. No way. No way get real.
Never paying for no floor ever again. Not now, not never
M4roon@reddit
I can buy a c7 for the cost of a GT in my country, and that’s straight from the dealership. 😭
halcykhan@reddit
Plus tax, title, registration, and insurance. That buys you a fuck load of cool used shit for less.
Idk why people wonder why the new sport car market has less entries and less sales. Manufacturers have built millions of them for the last 60 years. And people would rather buy old toys from their childhood if the new ones cost a lot more and aren’t as special
Larcya@reddit
Yeah like honestly look at how many used mustangs are on the market that you could get for less.
uberdosage@reddit
That's literally how the used car market has worked for everything but Porsche and Toyota trucks.
Vhozite@reddit
This is definitely apart of it. I love Ford and the Mustang is my favorite model but I also like the S197 and SN95 (my childhood gems) way more than the ones that came after that.
caterham09@reddit
I mean you're going to be paying that regardless of what car you buy.
halcykhan@reddit
It’s more for new cars in most states. Often significantly more
halcykhan@reddit
It’s more for new cars in most states. Often significantly more
halcykhan@reddit
It’s more for new cars in most states. Often significantly more
Hutchicles@reddit
AND they made it a major pain to tune it. You are paying more for less performance
tomjr85@reddit
I just rented a 2025 mustang get convertible and loved it. I looked up the price and was shocked. I’m only
thisonedudethatiam@reddit
And the lower models don’t have a way to choose your gear! No paddles or manual mode. They are terrible to drive. I have had them as rentals a few times and hated them.
Talkimas@reddit
It's absolutely asinine they cost that much now. My 2017 base GT I think ended up being only around 30k or a little under and my current pp2 w/recaros and the upgraded infotainment was only $38k
AwesomeBantha@reddit
I think they are or were being discounted to the low 40s
Vhozite@reddit
Yeah absolute stripper spec GT can be found without much trouble in the low 40’s before fees
aquariuminspace@reddit
Yeah I'm taking a Mach 1 for that price or stretching to a Shelby. My feelings on how the S650 looks aside, I'm not convinced there's enough different/ better to justify the markups. Used S650s are also becoming reasonable with low/no miles.
Agreeable_Rain_1764@reddit
I think we’ll look back on this time as a good chance to have picked up an inexpensive V8. In the context of the rest of the car industry, $46k for a V8 manual transmission sports car isn’t so bad.
UnderwhelmingAF@reddit
People shit on the EcoBoost, but when they start at $15K less than a GT I see why people go for them.
roman_maverik@reddit
The only reason people shit on the ecoboost is that it’s purposely watered down.
For awhile they had the ecoboost HiPo (spelling?) model that was available with a 6MT and the engine from the Focus RS. Now that was a decent performance car.
Sadly, they killed the 6MT and are continuing to make the base ecoboost softer win each generation. Of course this is what most consumers want, but probably the opposite of what enthusiast expect. So I kind of get the hate - I think people hate the missed opportunities and not necessarily the car itself.
UnnamedStaplesDrone@reddit
“Only” 38k in 2017 is 49k in today’s money.
Queasy-Hall-705@reddit
A 2018 Focus RS kills the Bronco
2222014@reddit
S650s are a lack luster upgrade to an already mediocre car. Add the fact that they start at like 50k for the one anyone actually wants and its pretty obvious why this is happening.
ThMogget@reddit
Ok now do the electric Bronco Raptor.
Dan_TheGreat@reddit
Feel like i read something not too long ago that they are dumping incentives on the mach e, along side the mustang that has jumped up something like 7k between generations. And then the bronco just doing bronco things.
G0TouchGrass420@reddit
Wanted a mustang but considering a Z now since they are actually available and you can get them dirt cheap
njpg@reddit
The new Mustang GT is still super fun the drive, but at that price and considering the general trend of folks switching to crossovers, this isn't surprising.
Plus, the Mach-E is a solid daily driver.
Dyep1@reddit
Ah yes, the cars they lose money on are killing it guys! Please buy my stoxk
Ambereggyolks@reddit
I know it's not a real bronco but the bronco sport has grown on me
kikirikipop@reddit
I would very much buy the Bronco Sport if only Ford sold it in Europe. We only get the Kuga which is very similar to Escape.
GOA_AMD65@reddit
it is what the escape should have been.
xarune@reddit
I haven't been in the Escape, but have been in the Bronco Sport. Based on the interior of the Bronco Sport my guess was that was designed for the younger "active lifestyle" crowd with a slightly less plush, slightly more durable interior. Basically, going after Subaru owners. Reminded me a lot of my gen1 CR-V.
And so I assumed the Escape would be the more comfortable, less adventurous, car for the age 55 median car buyer. What did the mess up with the Escape?
okcumputer@reddit
Even in the Bronco communities, its been pretty universally agreed that the Bronco Sport Badlands is actually a very capable SUV.
MiscPostThrowaway@reddit
It’s a great car for its segment, f anyone who gatekeeps
Ness341@reddit
I fuckin love making fun of my Baby Bronco. For the money, and features, it's a steal for my own personal utility. I love the stereo, I can pull my motorcycle to the race track with the factory hitch, I can fit an entire months of costco groceries in the trunk WITH A STROLLER IN THE BACK SEAT, AND CAR SEAT behind the passenger. I could legitimately do all of that, in one trick if I wanted to fully load it up for a track weekend with the family. All with the funky 1.5L 3CyL. It's a small pony with a big bag of tricks. Oh, and the leather interior is decent, the memory seats for my wife and I are great. It's amusing to drive in the snow. If I put 93octane in it daily, the mileage goes up per tank which is nice because of the turbo charger longevity increases while it adjusts the A/F & Ignition Timing. I have the 23' Outerbanks in Black, with a black roof and if you look at it with beer goggles it's like a tiny range rover Bronco stepkid. The backseats fold down flat, turning it into what feels like a 2door station wagon. It also basically drives itself with the adaptive cruise control.
The only gate keeping I ever see is people with the 2.0L talking smack on the 1.5L, and I still mention it's a baby Bronco without an option for a V8 in the fullsize either so don't go taking yourself too seriously. I live that the interior space actually is more usable and roomy than the fullsize Bronco at $60K, with a home mortgage payment for your monthly.
Only issue it has that Ford is aware of, the fuckin water pumps. I got no clue. I feel the motor is overstressed and a bit small for the weight of the vehicle. But I digress, having a warranty is nice, and since they replace them all the time on these motors, its a quick turn around. I just worry about them being the equivalent to the Northstar in the future if they keep having waterpump problems. Oh, and the sunroof ventube thingamajig aparently has a weird leak to the interior floormat if there is debris in the line, something I gotta take a look at cuz mine is doing it. And Ohio winters plus salt will make it rust in half if it continues over the years.
Ness341@reddit
Oh gosh, that's so strange. The mustang doesn't have any new sales competition domestically with the Camaro, Challenger and v8 Charger gone. I can't imagine why the price would be up if there are no other options to go with if you want a rear wheel drive V8. It's like, how the WRX had zero competition when the Lancer disappeared. Or Jeep being forced to compete when the Bronco came back. Who is going to pay $50K for a Mustang GT? Just get an older one and install android auto/car play if that's the main hangup for some people. The car isn't going to change outside of color options and special editions for the next decade if the domestic competition doesn't happen. Just my 2cents, I was this writing on the wall when they canceled the other options.
RiftHunter4@reddit
The problem is that for the cost of a brand new Mustang, I could get a low-mileage GT350 or Hellcat. Sure, it's older, but it's a hell of a lot more car than a rental spec Mustang at $55k. You can even start looking at used Corvette C8's and C8's at that price.
bootyfischer@reddit
At $55k you’re very near current C7 Z06 prices lol. I want to know what they were smoking when they cooked up the prices for these. There just isn’t enough going for it if someone wants a sport car when there are so many better used options on the market, often for cheaper. Yeah, their competition died out with the Camaro, charger, etc. but they’ve put it into a whole different bracket of vehicles to compete against now.
Mojave_Idiot@reddit
That’s why I had been saying that anyone who saw this as a win for Ford is very misguided. The Mustang was basically left to rot until Transformers came out and we’re gonna do it again.
Mojave_Idiot@reddit
That’s why I had been saying that anyone who saw this as a win for Ford is very misguided. The Mustang was basically left to rot until Transformers came out and we’re gonna do it again.
brodoxfaggins@reddit
Because it’s $50k for a new GT lol. Not exactly rocket science. Why would I spend $50k+ on a new Mustang when I could spend $40k on a previous gen Vette or $60k-ish on a new gen Vette? And that’s coming from someone who’s actively looking to buy a Mustang.
Couple that with the fact that the S650 isn’t massively different from the S550, so there’s no reason for S550 owners to upgrade.
Ok-Efficiency-5728@reddit
They are expensive and losing the sport appeal. Too much tech and too heavy. Mustang owners want cheap thrills. And those screens are just the worst
-crackling-@reddit
Too…heavy? The Mustang is one of the lighter cars on the market these days. The GT has a curb weight of 3800 lbs which is identical to an M240i and nobody calls that a heavy car, in fact that is literally the smallest and lightest car in BMW’s I6 coupe/sedan lineup.
Too expensive, absolutely. But this is what happens when you’re handed an effective monopoly. The Camaro, Charger, and Challenger are gone.
Ok-Efficiency-5728@reddit
That still almost 400-500 lbs heavier than 10 years ago. And just because it's close to a little BMW doesn't mean that's light. All cars are suffering from bloat these days.
RamenWrestler@reddit
It's only like 100lb heavier than a decade ago. Pony cars have been around 3800lb with a V8 for a while how
Ok-Efficiency-5728@reddit
I think we're just arguing for the sake of arguing. Can we agree that the bloat needs to at least stop, if not trim up a bit? Weight really kills the experience and feel.
-crackling-@reddit
No, we're arguing because you're in a thread about one of the only cars to not experience said bloat, and bitching about it. Go complain in the BMW threads, not here.
withsexyresults@reddit
Is weight and feel that big of a deal for mustang buyers? Thought the typical buyer just wants v8 noise, speed and most importantly cheap
Ok-Efficiency-5728@reddit
I've owned 3 mustangs, and I still have one. 1969, 2003, & 2010. Still got my '69. Yes, lighter vehicles are just better in everyway.
Mojave_Idiot@reddit
Sure, all other things equal, but when the modern versions of these vehicles accelerate and stop quicker and in general drive better, at what point does comparing weights just become more spec sheet racing?
Ok-Efficiency-5728@reddit
You can feel it. It's the way the chasis rolls and dips.
Mojave_Idiot@reddit
Disagree. Modern materials, geometry, and technology can more than make up for weight. If we’re doing anecdotes I have a garage that ranges from 1500 pounds to 9000 pounds. I have some personal experience in this matter.
Spaghetto23@reddit
At the end of the day you are inevitably burning more fuel/electricity, shredding more tire, and going through more consumables.
elon_free_hk@reddit
This is one of the main reasons I replaced my S550 Mach 1 with a MkV Supra. On paper, they both perform great with similar lap times around the track and acceleration numbers (0-60) in the same realm.
However, the driving experience is vastly different between the two. I know modern suspension and tire tech hides the weight well, but throwing fat wide tires and big brakes on these things also drives up my consumables cost. The turn-in and yaw responses are just different between a lighter car and a heavier car.
Spicywolff@reddit
100%. I think the 3,300-3,500lbs is about the sweet spot of not too heavy but not Miata. Where you’re not killing consumables, the car still feels relatively playful and nimble. I don’t expect cars to be Miata but 4,000 lbs sports cars is heavy
withsexyresults@reddit
Agree with that light is better. But light isn’t cheap and increasing the price of the mustang for it to be lighter won’t help their sales
Spaghetto23@reddit
I don’t disagree. But Ford has been lazy and greedy. Instead of new platform and lighter and more expensive it’s the same platform, same weight, and more expensive.
KyledKat@reddit
Looking at Challenger sales over the last decade, no. The r/cars and hardcore enthusiast group will always complain about weight, and also why can’t every manufacturer make every car as light as the godsend Miata?
Jamaican_Dynamite@reddit
Budget answer? Buy used and start pulling bits off that you don't care about to get down to that magical weight.
Not saying to ditch safety gear or any other mods here.
coyote_of_the_month@reddit
ND Miata: "Am I a joke to you?"
TheReaperSovereign@reddit
People bitch nonstop about the new 2 series weight
natesully33@reddit
People complain about the weight of pretty much every new and newish car, and have been since I got in to cars in the 2000s. I've driven many heavy and light cars and frankly, the mass number on a spec sheet does not convey the whole story.
Spicywolff@reddit
I’d have to agree that mass on paper doesn’t tell the whole story. Well the new M2 is absolutely too heavy. BMW has worked some amazing magic and made it handle amazingly. And it is faster than the previous generation.
But it’s faster in a very different way. You can feel the mess to use a lot of tire and sticky compounds to control it. Having driven performance cars from lightweight Miata to the middle sports car Corvette, to a heavy, super Sedan. Honestly, I miss lightweight and middleweight cars.
They drive so enthusiastically and their consumables are much cheaper for it.
natesully33@reddit
To pull the same G's with more weight, the same tire should work (-ish) since it's being shoved into the ground harder, thus increasing friction and cornering forces. That's a bit of a simplification but it's why big heavy EVs can still pull G's on regular tires, like a Y doing 0.8something and a Plaid or Lucid pulling >1G.
I never got my Y to a track or autocross, but it felt quite nimble and grippy despite being 4400lbs on all seasons. Likewise one of the many Miatas I had was a slippy drift machine, though that's probably because I was a cheap college student and had crap tires and no performance alignment, haha!
There's no getting around the extra tire wear, and also efficiency loss and brake pad wear in ICE cars though. Feel too, though that's complicated - IMHO, what made the Miatas I've had fun was the size and convertibleness, not the mass of them. The c7 - a much heavier car than any Miata - was very nimble, grippy, and generally amazing to drive despite being well over half a Miata heavier than one.
sprottythotty@reddit
Cars are beholden to physics and no amount of tech will change that. 4000lbs of mass feels different than 3000lbs, it’s as simple as that.
natesully33@reddit
My experience is that it's not simple, the suspension, steering and tires interact in complex ways when you load up cars in corners and all that has a bigger impact on feel then just how much they weigh. That's why the mass number on a spec sheet doesn't tell me much (unless it's totally insane) other than how often I'll be buying tires, I need to drive the car to know what it really feels like.
Specialist-Size9368@reddit
Just because it is lighter by today's standards doesn't mean it is light. Across the board, cars got fat.
3800lbs is 300lbs heavier than my viper. My engine is 700lbs by itself.
Spicywolff@reddit
3800lbs is lead heavy for a 2 door. My c63S sedan with a Twin turbo V8 is 3900. Dude everyone was calling the m2 heavy and by extension the m240i. Literally one of the biggest complaints against that car besides the horrific styling.
coherent-rambling@reddit
Let's be honest, "2-door car" is not a useful classification. The Mustang and Camaro (and your C63S) are all HUGE for 2-door cars, and have enormous engines. 3800 lbs is heavy for a 2-door car because these are all large enough to be 4-door cars. They're all hundreds of pounds heavier than a 370Z, BRZ, or Supra, but those cars are nearly 2 feet shorter. A Miata is 3 feet shorter and has a much smaller engine.
It's heavy for a sports car, yes, but even with independent suspension it's never been part of the light-and-tossable handling-first crowd.
Spicywolff@reddit
Yah the Camaro Mustang and my car are definitely big cars no doubt. The weight gain is an industry direction.
Definitely the Z, Supra hit a sweet spot of space, capacity, relatively low weight and not be Miata cramped. The Z absolutely hustles around a cone course.
They may be heavy but manufacturer have gotten great at managing its weight. Tire tech is also really amazing. The new m2 is proof of that alone. A reason we have a Vett at home is to keep a reasonable weight sports car. I’d still have my Miata he the hurricane not taken it from me.
-crackling-@reddit
I'm kind of confused...your response to me saying the Mustang is not heavy anymore is to...say that your car that is dimensionally smaller than the Mustang in length, width, and height...weighs more? I'm afraid I'm not following where you're going with that. If anything that seems to be the perfect example to emphasize my point.
Spicywolff@reddit
I said “3800lbs is lead heavy for a 2 door car”
A mustang being as heavy as a twin turbo luxury sedan is bad. A mustang shouldn’t be that heavy. The point being sports cars are going the wrong way. Too heavy for their size.
A Mustang being roughly the same length width and weight as a 4 door car is losing touch with the sports car side. The m2 is doing the same. Modern sports cars are getting heavier and heavier. Mustang included.
-crackling-@reddit
This sub's double standards are WILD.
I literally have over 500 downvotes in this sub from people bashing me over the head about the Mustang not being a sports car. Now suddenly it's a sports car when people want to conveniently scape goat it against the shittiness of European manufacturers. How convenient.
Spicywolff@reddit
I’ve always maintained at the Mustang as a sports car. Has it gotten fat over the years? sure and you can argue that the older generations were more pony car than sports car
But the current Mustang is absolutely very capable and very sport. My only real complaints is too many screens on the interior and the weight gain, but that’s an happening in the industry.
I’m not sure where the attitude is coming from or if maybe I’m reading it wrong.
coyote_of_the_month@reddit
Compared to what, exactly? It's literally the heaviest sporty car on the market at or below its price point. You could argue the M2 kinda sorta maybe fits into its segment, at a similar weight, but it's quite a bit more expensive.
-crackling-@reddit
The Mustang is not a sports car, it's a pony car. Or so thousands of armchair redditors have beaten me over the head claiming this.
coyote_of_the_month@reddit
I chose my words carefully and said "sporty car" for a reason: it encompasses hot hatches, performance sedans, pony cars, and grand touring coupes, as well as sports cars, and I stand by my premise.
cloudofevil@reddit
Yeah, I doubt weight matters to buyers that much. New 3300 lbs 400 HP cars under $60k simply don't exist.
cloudofevil@reddit
Yeah, I doubt weight matters to buyers that much. New 3300 lbs 400 HP cars under $60k simply don't exist.
Mustang1718@reddit
I see talk about the screens very often, but I don't see what is so bad about it. But between working IT and PC gaming, I sit with dual screens all day. Is there performance issues with them or anything?
Ok-Efficiency-5728@reddit
I like the tactile feel of a button and knob. Muscle memory and touch are important to experience.
Mobile619@reddit
It's no surprise that one would fare better sales wise. That should have been the case from the start. One is a practical 4 door crossover whereas the other is a 2 door sports coupe.
The_Flying_Sausage@reddit (OP)
The Mustang followed up its worst sales year ever with… an even worse start to the year. IMO Ford got cocky with the pricing since they’re the only game in town now, and it’s biting them in the ass. The S650 is also just an S550 in a new suit, so there is very little reason for current owners to trade in.
velociraptorfarmer@reddit
Ford got too cocky with pricing in general.
Nearly $60k for an XLT F-150? $50k for an XLT Ranger? $55k for the cheapest Bronco with a rear locker? Not to mention the Mustang...
Dragoeth1@reddit
Nah Ford MSRP doesn't matter for trucks though. They are the king of stacking discounts so they can change discounts based on market demand without changing MSRP. Today you can get an F-150 XLT for $48k, Ranger XLT for $38k. Broncos only get about 5k off but are still selling heavy. But yeah the problem with mustangs is they just arent discounting them much. Any desirable option or trim is sitting heavy near MSRP.
okcumputer@reddit
$47k for a 2 door bronco with the black diamond package. That adds your rear locker. Its still bad though. My 4 door black diamond msrp was 40k in 2022. And they killed the base model. Greedy as fuck.
Dangerous-Ad9208@reddit
I think it’s clear to them that if people aren’t buying it then it’s not worth it to keep it going. I just hope they don’t kill the car off before I get my hands on one
RiftHunter4@reddit
No one is buying it because it isn't worth the money they're asking and people are broke. MSRP might start in the $30k's but to get something actually decent, you end up paying $45k and that's without the beloved V8. Most GT's I've seen are $50k to $60k.
Given that GR86 sales shot up 30% Q1 for both Toyota and Subaru, it's obvious that people want a cheap sports car, but Ford has decided to leave that market, in terms of price.
Dangerous-Ad9208@reddit
Oh I 100% agree. At $55k plus, it’s not worth it. But data shows that buyers don’t care and will pay it or will keep the money to spend it on a 5.0 F150.
Either way, guys n gals like us are the losers
carpenj@reddit
Yeah. I switched from an '18 Mustang GT PP1 to a BMW M240i xDrive that's equally fast, has way more features, and is light-years ahead in build quality. Oh, and it cost about $15k less than the new PP1. Ford knows they're the only new option for an American V8 and they're trying to capitalize on that, with a car that's just not worth $65k.
desjb18@reddit
I was planning to get an s550 during lockdown but decided against it, you know be a responsible 20 something year old and just thought I’ll wait for the new one. Was planning to split with my dad as a fun car. It’s just too expensive and not attractive. I saw s650 at the auto show right before it debuted and felt the design was too far gone and modern. I’m not sure who their target was with the design and price. Then generation that can afford it think it’s ugly and the young and irresponsible are priced out. The s550 was a perfect balance.
Robertsmitherson713@reddit
Sales are down but it’s still the best selling a sports car
badpuffthaikitty@reddit
Affordable 2 door coupes are almost extinct. Nobody is buying them anymore.
Forsaken_Bend7232@reddit
One's a coupe, a body style that ironically replaced the sedan as "the old man body style", and one is a shapeless blob crossover, which everybody seems to want now. No shit the coupe sales are flagging.
Nonameswhere@reddit
Next Mustang needs to look different, drastically different yet still look like a Mustang. It has looked almost exactly the same for far too long. Buyers need a reason to buy and upgrade.
TommasoDiDio@reddit
People in this sub will riot if the mustang looks any different than what they’re used to
Ok-Efficiency-5728@reddit
And go on a diet
hawgs911@reddit
The new Mustang isn't really new. It's a bland facelift with a bunch of iPads tacked on that costs more.
jacksepthicceye@reddit
i prefer the S650 looks but the interior is absolutely horrendous. i cant stand the generic dogshit screens that cars are doing.
i absolutely despise the lack of physical buttons
strangway@reddit
Inflation-adjusted, the Mustang GT is $10k more now than it was in 1996.
DH64@reddit
As to be expected.
UnnamedStaplesDrone@reddit
Can’t tune it. This is a good chunk of buyers right there.
It’s also very boring, basically the same as last gen but uglier, with tablets in the interior and an extra throttle body
FlyingYankee118@reddit
They got greedy and jacked upthe prices
Jimmy2tx@reddit
Make a hybrid mustang ffs
Mojave_Idiot@reddit
I was going to mock op for the title but it’s the title of the article.
C’mon dudes.
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