Houston-Dallas high-speed rail faces major setbacks in land acquisition

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PumpkinCarvingisFun@reddit

Just put these things down the middle of the interstates/highways. Built in advertising for drivers that watch this thing blow by them and put into perspective how much time they are wasting by driving.

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Substantial-Ad-8575@reddit

Issue is there is not a middle space in the I-45 corridor for much of Houston and some of Dallas areas. Why this rail line was mostly designed to use existing railroad easements.

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PumpkinCarvingisFun@reddit

Just widen it then. But another user commented that high speeds require gradual turns.

Although it could just slow down at turns and then accelerate for the straight aways.

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Substantial-Ad-8575@reddit

Not easy or cheap to widen i45 in cities. Much easier to take mostly rural route and use existing rail easements. Hence out of 3 proposed routes, none directly follow i45 due to increased costs…

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PumpkinCarvingisFun@reddit

Is there a map of the proposed rail path somewhere?

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Substantial-Ad-8575@reddit

https://railroads.dot.gov/elibrary/dallas-houston-high-speed-rail-project-alignment-alternatives-analysis-report

https://soa.utexas.edu/sites/default/files/documents/UT%20Austin%20Community%20and%20Regional%20Planning%20Rail%20Practicum%20-%20Texas%20on%20the%20Fast%20Track%20Report%202024.pdf

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PumpkinCarvingisFun@reddit

Thanks!

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SLY0001@reddit

Ive said this time and time again. Why tf do they bother wanting to get land that will cause problems? Just build it next to interstates where the land is easily accessible

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TransportationEng@reddit

Only if you want low speed rail. The horizontal curves require a much larger radius than what is on the interstate.

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hsuan23@reddit

It would make sense for it to run close like the DART on 75 but on an elevated track the whole duration esp with wildlife and traffic. I doubt it’ll run on the ground.

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PumpkinCarvingisFun@reddit

Ahh. Good point.

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TransportationEng@reddit

There was an alignment study done to find the most technically feasible route. The problem you have with a 'mostly' working alignment is that it has to veer into built up areas to connect. They also looked at following established utility corridors, which were worse.

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PumpkinCarvingisFun@reddit

Interesting. Thanks for the info!

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BorgeHastrup@reddit

Also Texas Central had minimized the number of road-over-rail crossings along the whole alignment. IIRC the last legally-binding cost assessment that was done had the number of crossings down to 2 or 3.

Road-over-rail in interstate medians would be a HUGE risk factor that Texas Central would likely not be willing to take.

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TransportationEng@reddit

Correct. There are about a dozen in two segments of the CAHSR. They like to keep their number to a minimum.

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alsinaal@reddit

Sounds great, but it does not fit, and even if the finished product fit, the space needed to build, would not.

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hsuan23@reddit

You’d be surprised how many paper plate Nissan Altimas will find a way to crash into it.

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Big_Tone4146@reddit

lol, they pocketed the money. Just like the bridge

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Ferrari_McFly@reddit

This story is becoming just as annoying as the Neiman Marcus one

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jfb1027@reddit

I remember reading about this 10-12 years ago. I assume we are in the same phase as to when I read about it. I also assume someone else was reading about it 10 years before me reading about it. Two things look to be true. 1. It would be really cool to have this. 2. Probably never going to happen.

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Appropriate372@reddit

I assume we are in the same phase as to when I read about it.

If anything, we have gone backwards. Much of the support they did have evaporated.

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nihouma@reddit

This is the United States, and more importantly this is Texas - we don't build much public infrastructure anymore unless we can structure it so someone (not average Americans) can make a profit off of it

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jb4647@reddit

I’ve said repeatedly that they will never build this thing. Even though I would love to see it done as I have to travel between Houston and Dallas quite a bit, mark my words: this will never happen.

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BlazinAzn38@reddit

Southwest will spend billions to make sure it doesn’t

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Appropriate372@reddit

They don't have to. The project would be very expensive and doesn't have the funding.

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BorgeHastrup@reddit

Southwest is actually pro-HSR. Source: not going to threaten my NDA's, but I was on the phone for several of those phone calls.

Number 1 - they want to minimize Dallas-Houston single leg ridership in order to keep those legs open for higher-margin connecting flights elsewhere.

Number 2 - this is a relief valve partnership opportunity for weather and logistics-related cancellations.

Anyone who spouts off that Southwest is lobbying against this is deliberately mis-informed.

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happy_puppy25@reddit

Southwest lobbied successfully against it in the 90s. We would have had it if they had not lobbied. Actions speak louder than words. The campaign was aggressive and successful in canceling the TGV within 4 years. They lobbied federal, state, and sued numerous entities to cancel the plan. I really do hope what you heard is true, I’m just sharing the history from not too long ago

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rraider17@reddit

The 90s are an ETERNITY ago as far as Southwest Airlines. Hardly recognizable, and I don’t meant that in an “omg service and baggage fees”, I’m talking business model.

The Wright Amendment being repealed alone fundamentally changes their business model, and that’s to say nothing of the other factors.

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civil_beast@reddit

This is the first I’ve heard anyone suggest that SWA was anything but a silent detractor. Thus the only portion of your argument that I would cast-off is the ‘willful’ label.

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thephotoman@reddit

They don’t currently have the billions to spend.

If they should get out of their current mess, maybe they’ll return to fight it.

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BamaPhils@reddit

Southwest is hurtling towards dangerous financial territory on their own accord tbh

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Phynub@reddit

Southwest financials are fine lol. Elliott is spreading false information to make folks think they're near bankruptcy.

All these changes are driven by Elliott.

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BamaPhils@reddit

I’m aware they’re fine for now, I’m just saying it seems like the changes that are being made are likely to drive away potential customers which definitely won’t help

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Phynub@reddit

people are controlled by two things

Cost and schedule

People will come back when the cost matches their expectations.

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civil_beast@reddit

But it’s important that we pretend that it’s possible - for the sake of tradition..

Established ‘1988

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SameSadMan@reddit

Fully agree. Not in my lifetime and probably not in my kindergartner's either.

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DependentFamous5252@reddit

Yeah so much expensive land in bund)$$k Texas that we can’t afford.

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Substantial-Ad-8575@reddit

Texas Central has never had adequate funds to purchase land. The majority of offers, are timed offers awaiting for Federal funding or Private funding to secure the full amount needed to purchase all land tracts.

Funny, after 30 plus years, Private funding has failed to materialize. What with HSR reports showing low potential passenger counts. Add in ever higher construction costs. This will rely upon Federal funding. And at its now projected costs of $45B-$50B, not much traction in DC, even before Trumps non-infrastructure posture.

Add in overestimation of passenger counts. Project has yet shown it could carry enough paying customers to cover yearly operational costs to compete with current airfare prices…

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TheFifthPhoenix@reddit

Wanna bet? Never is a long time

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HorseCockExpress6969@reddit

Shhhhhhhhh how else are politicians going to get rich if you keep bringing that up

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azzers214@reddit

Unfortunately, while the Republican party is this ideological to the point of parody the chances of this going through are slim to none which is most likely why the Japanese left. Even if someone doesn't start with a problem, they'll manufacture some reason why this will ruin the world and why the only true transportation is a car you drive yourself.

All these projects require some form of right of way/eminent domain process and it looks like the rural parts are either looking for a payoff or ot block entirely.

I just miss when discourse was 1 or 2 levels higher than AM radio. Portfolios of transportation options and portfolios of energy.

I remember I turned on AM radio recently and there was this guy on there doing generic conservative rants but he didn't stay on any topic longer than 10 to 20 seconds and his explanations were nonsensical - just repeated constantly in different ways. That's unfortunately what you're dealing with.

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yeahright17@reddit

Call me whatever you want, but building should be easier in this county. A dozen farmers or ranchers shouldn't be able to dictate public transportation for millions. A small group of NIMBY shouldn't be able to stop a housing project that will house hundreds. The reason building anything big in this country costs so much isn't because of construction costs. It's because it takes way too much money getting anything approved. America is too obsessed with individual property rights because of the boogie man. "If they can pay a rancher fair market value for a tract of land through their property, they can steal your house in middle of the night for pennies on the dollar."

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SameSadMan@reddit

It's not just individuals' property rights. Permitting for projects on Federally-owned land is equally absurd. I work in the energy industry, and follow the offshore wind scene on the east coast. Federal and state permitting is knee capping the industry (this was trued under Biden as well as Trump).

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yeahright17@reddit

Oh for sure. But often it’s not even the permitting that causes the biggest delays. It’s groups using environmental laws to stop anyone from building anything that might diminish their property value or even just their view.

Lack of consistency between administrations is a major issue when it takes 10+ years to get something from development to fully built. No one wants to spend $100M developing something and have the next admin come in and be like “I like coal and oil, no more wind.”

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SameSadMan@reddit

Absolutely right

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azzers214@reddit

Thing is when they do it they just claim they’re doing what you do. In reality both sides won’t change the system. They’ll only change it if they’re in control.

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yeahright17@reddit

Plenty of other Western countries build things just fine. It's not difficult to say "these people get this land IF they actually do something."

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Substantial-Ad-8575@reddit

Biggest issue over this HSR project? The low passenger count estimates. Private investors are staying out, why place money into a $45B-$50B project, that will not have enough paying passengers to cover operational costs for 15 plus years?

Add in Amtrak reports-estimates of daily rider numbers of 3k-6k for first 15-18 years of service.

The only saving grace would be that Brazos-TAMU stop. Potential to have a decent amount of daily passengers from Houston/DFW heading to TAMU daily, perhaps another 2k a day, would help add costs at affordable $50 a trip costs.

Yeah, people think HSR would replace and carry all 24,150 daily air passengers between DFW to Houston. But a good number of those passengers, catch a connecting flight. Add in, there are many air passengers that will want to stay flying and earning airmiles-airline rewards.

So yeah, This would be a huge win. But realistically looking at passenger counts, investors-Amtrak-DoT is staying mum on funding…

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Spock_Nipples@reddit

A tale as old as the 1980s, at least.

We've been trying to get rail service in TX for at least 40 years. It's unlikely to happen in your lifetime unless we completely rout the state's government.

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EricTheTexan@reddit

They can eminent domain the rest, just need the funding.

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happy_puppy25@reddit

That funding was no issue when building i45, nor is it an issue to continually prop up roads across the country to the tune of a quarter of a trillion a year. Horrible thing that we have this artificial problem in this country

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Substantial-Ad-8575@reddit

There has not been much traction in DC for this HSR project. Low passenger counts and high construction costs, derailed push during Obama and Biden administrations. Private investors are rightly staying out also.

So, while a nice and good project on many fronts. Reality is this HSR has such low passenger counts, Amtrak estimating from 3k-6k daily passengers for first 10-15 years of operation. That was a 2022 report.

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SameSadMan@reddit

People underestimate the limited convenience HSR will offer. Since both ends are massive cities with limited public transportation, you might still be looking at a 30 minute drive or Uber on each end. No one in Ft. Worth is gonna drive 45 or 60 minutes to a station in Dallas to catch this thing.

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Substantial-Ad-8575@reddit

Valid points in that stations will need to have access to local transit and of course Uber/Lyft pickups/dropoffs. Those in Ft Worth are supposed to use TRE and switch to direct bus connector to Cedars station in Dallas.

Rather unfortunate about this HSR. I have traveled via HSR in Europe and Japan. About 40 trips and it was a unique experience. Mostly with wife and I, wouldn’t want to do it as a family with 6-10 pieces of luggage tho.

Japan was crowded and long time to just move about station with one’s luggage. Stations are well setup and just an extra 5-10 min walking with luggage to get to elevators. No porters at many stations, so travelers have to bring all their luggage with them.

Europe was a bit better to use. 30 min before departure and carrying luggage through station is different than airport experience. Bigger stations have pay for porter system, to place luggage for travelers. But one can take themselves up the short steps into train and place in luggage area.

But did not save a bit on costs versus flying, pricing was same or flying was cheaper than HSR in Europe. And not much time saved as many would think.

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ppham1027@reddit

For as much flak as people give China, they were able to construct high speed rail that spans the entire nation over the course of the last couple decades. Meanwhile, all the US has done is allowed infrastructure to either continue deteriorating while applying patch fixes or privatized roads that should be publicly accessible.

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sealclubberfan@reddit

I'm confused, are we supposed to want federal funds for these kind of projects? A republican from California is introducting a bill so their high speed rail project doesn't receive any more federal funds.....

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TakeATrainOrBusFFS@reddit

I'm confused, are we supposed to want federal funds for these kind of projects?

Yes, it is absolutely within the scope of both state governments and the federal government to fund massive infrastructure projects like this.

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spacedman_spiff@reddit

from the article:

On Monday, Texas lawmakers discussed House Bill 1402, which would bar any state or local tax dollars from being used to alter roadways to make room for railway infrastructure. Cody Harris (R-Palestine), the bill's author, introduced the legislation to block public money from being spent on associated state road changes. The bill states that "the legislature may not appropriate money to pay for a cost of planning, facility construction of maintenance, or security for, promotion of, or operation of, high-speed rail operated by a private entity."

Cody Harris notoriously whined about getting booed off stage during a town hall in Palestine, TX and calling the backlash a "Palestianian-style protest" with zero sense of irony or self-awareness.

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SLY0001@reddit

Didnt it have Eminent Domain?

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Substantial-Ad-8575@reddit

It does. Just doesn’t have any Private Funding and Amtrak-Feds are not willing to fund with such low passenger count numbers…

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RogueHelios@reddit

Funny how there never seem to be as many problems and setbacks when they want to build new highways.

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Substantial-Ad-8575@reddit

Helps to have county-state/federal funding all ready approved or just sitting waiting to be used.

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General-Carob-6087@reddit

20 years from now we’ll be reading the exact same article.

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Substantial-Ad-8575@reddit

Yeah, starting reading about funding issues back in late 1980s. Still funding issues today.

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FearlessFrolic@reddit

Just to play devil’s advocate, it’s still good news that the project is moving at all. Most people here seem more focused on politics than the project itself.

Right before the Texas Supreme Court heard the case, Texas Central had a leadership shakeup. Maybe they didn’t expect to win, but the court ruled they can use eminent domain, which was a huge win and a big reason I still have hope. Amtrak seems to think so too. Since then, they’ve been talking to city councils and working on more detailed plans.

Today’s update clears up who’s in charge after that eminent domain win, which was the biggest lingering issue. Only 25% of the land is acquired, which isn’t great, but it’s still real progress beyond just renderings and headlines.

Federal grants are uncertain, but this admin might be more open to a public-private project in a Red state than funding California’s public HSR.

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Substantial-Ad-8575@reddit

Private financing has stayed away from this project for 30 plus years. Biggest concern is low ridership numbers. Not enough paying customers to fund operational costs.

Have you looked into ridership numbers? Texas Central is hoping to start around 5k passengers a day. That low number does not cover daily operational costs. And Texas Central passenger forecasts have been found to be highly optimistic by Amtrak reports, AGIS reports, studies done by UT, Japanese Railway, and DOT.

Beat estimates is the Dallas-Houston HSR would need 15-18 years to be able to operate in the black. At a now cost of $45B-$50B.

Sorry private investors are not interested. Brightline, was asked and politely declined.

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KeKamba1@reddit

Shocker

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lotusflower_3@reddit

It’s never going to happen. 🤣

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Right_Letterhead_120@reddit

DOGE time!

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Phynub@reddit

DOGE would be good at not making it happen.

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Southside_Burd@reddit

That’s the joke. I hope.

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Right_Letterhead_120@reddit

Not joke, but yes.

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cbrew14@reddit

I really felt that 'I hope'

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Blor-Utar@reddit

Best I can do is an unfinished tunnel

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Slinkeh_Inkeh@reddit

best I can do is firing thousands of people

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Texadoro@reddit

I’m shocked

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Weekly_Volume9031@reddit

It’s not needed….

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GeekyTexan@reddit

Don't be hasty. Just give them a little time. They've only been working on this for 3 or 4 decades.

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MarioV2@reddit

Yeah yeah fuck them all this fuxking rail will never be built

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TheFifthPhoenix@reddit

I don’t really see how this is news. We’ve known the only thing left standing in their way is funding and we weren’t realistically expecting it to come from the Texas state government. I’m sure it would be appreciated if it does, but this isn’t some unexpected setback.

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Sowf_Paw@reddit

In other news: the sky is blue.

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soggyballsack@reddit

This railways is facing the same problems the north Dallas tollway has faced for decades. Some rich asshole got wind that eventually they are gonna want a railway and they bought up the land where it was gonna run through so as to kidnap the land and ask for a hefty ransom.

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shrek-is-real@reddit

Even if it gets built, the last mile public transport is non existent in both cities though. So I'm not sure how it'd be useful once you get off the train

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BorgeHastrup@reddit

The Dallas/Cedars station is a LOT more advantageous than the Houston stop. Dallas had active conversations about connections both with a future short DART spur (in conjunction with their D2/Convention Center spur) and shuttle service with Love Field.

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FearlessFrolic@reddit

The proposed station in the cedars is a short walk to a DART station. Is DART perfect? No. But public transit is not "non-existent". Someone from Houston could easily take the HSR to Dallas and then ride DART 1 stop to go to a event at the convention center. Or take it to the American Airlines Center, Irving Convention Center, Downtown, Uptown, SMU, Fair Park, Deep Ellum, etc which all have dedicated stations.

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