What are your thoughts on the Eurofighter Typhoon as a combat aircraft?
Posted by JimPalamo@reddit | aviation | View on Reddit | 359 comments

Posted by JimPalamo@reddit | aviation | View on Reddit | 359 comments
Ebolaboy24@reddit
Been watching this series that focuses on the EuroFighter.
https://youtu.be/fIFaZ4ODrPk?si=ubOOkJKXd25okOW1
Worth a look as it’s pretty recent and includes sorties around the Black Sea and Syria.
RECTUSANALUS@reddit
One of if not the best 4.5 gens out there. We should still be making them
stupidpower@reddit
Short answer is that we'll never really know. The Avionics/sensor suite/networking/internals of the planes are all extremely classified, much less how individual countries doctrinally train their pilots to use them. For example - we know towed decoys are a thing, but you will not find anything about what exactly they do. The Russians shot two R-73s at a 70 year old RAF Rivet Joint and both missiles didn't hit, and we'll never know whether the Russians are terrible at maintaining their missiles or if the RAF has some cylon kill-switch EW system that just make missiles miss.
It's not a secret that China's missile technology is superior - the PL-15 has AESA radars and isn't constrained by the weapon bay sizes of the F-22 and F-35 that were designed around the form factor of the AMRAAM - but does any line fighter of the US that might plausible go against them have the EW to jam PL-15s? No one commenting on the open internet knows.
Particuarly on air warfare, the way older airframe have been iteratively upgraded by different air forces over 60 years means you can't really tell what any fighter is capable of. Israel and Singapore to use countries I am more familiar with have airframes that are quite old but have been constantly been upgraded to an extent that is extremely classified. Many other countries without access to the most updated technology might also fly F-16s that look identical, but if they are the really old models that only can shoot sidewinders and unable to do any precision bombing it's not particularly that much more capable than an extremely upgraded F-5.
What we do know is that the Typhoon can sustain a lot higher Gs and angle of attacks than American jets because of their delta wing, but that's about it. Not that you can compare them apples to apples - outside BFM training different air forces every country have braintrusts developing doctrines and tactics based on the electronic and aerodynamic capabilities of their aircraft that are quite classified. We know a lot of countries have towed EW pods on their fighters, for example, but you will not find anything about what they precisely do. Besides, most missions in contested environments are rarely the sort of "take off and go and find and kill enemy fighter planes" or "take off over Iraq and loiter until someone calls in an airstrike"; there are specific missions that different planes are good at over others, and the you need your pilots to train to specific mission sets even though on paper their planes are multi-role and can do most things. You still hear fighter pilots lamenting A-10s being retired not because the airframe is particularly good but because the pilot community were the specialists in close air support.
For example - the F-15E series from the SG through the EX is still, in its core, a bomb truck that has been up-engined so allowing considerably more bomb loads (aside form the unknowns about internals), but because the F-15C production line closed decades ago, it is probably going to be pressed into ASF and intercept roles. It is the best at BFM? Probably not, but if your staff planning is good enough and your technology is superior enough if you have to start relying on the very small marginal differences in capabilities something has went very wrong.
rkmvca@reddit
Wait, what? When? R-73s are supposed to be "short range" IR missiles, how did they get that close to an EW plane??
stupidpower@reddit
The RAF was patrolling the Rivet Joint unescorted in international water off the Black Sea, this is extremely regular even during the Cold War. Two Su-27s flew on a regular intercept, extremely regular, and one pilot somehow misunderstood instructions and shot two missiles at the River Joint.
Based on UK intel anyway the pilots were not just… talking… with unclear terminology and the flight lead uttered “you have the target” and the wingman just thought that means weapons free or whatever proper phraseology the Russians are supposed to use to confirm you can start shooting
After the SNAFU, the French and British started escorting their intel planes.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-66798508.amp
rkmvca@reddit
Holy shit. This got essentially zero airtime in the US.
stupidpower@reddit
There was another situation where a SU-27 pilot from the same air base tried doing stupid aerobatics and dumping fuel to annoy a Reaper but they clipped the Reaper and caused it to crash.
rkmvca@reddit
This one I heard about!
Trebus@reddit
It was reported on but wasn't questioned much in the UK. That more than anything made me think that the RAF didn't want to make much of it because they killed the R73s & didn't want to draw attention to that fact.
If it was just janky Russian tech a lot more would have been made of it, not least to humiliate the Russians.
Jaggedmallard26@reddit
It wasn't massive news in Britain either. I got the feeling the British government didn't want to make a huge deal out of it so that things wouldn't escalate.
Major_Spite7184@reddit
It got air time, but it was easy to miss.
TybrosionMohito@reddit
Much like the missiles, it turns out
Pitiful_Special_8745@reddit
Wish this would be the top comment not some it can't even shoot down a Cessna comment
RadicalBatman@reddit
Yeah, I agree. It's weird how often the best comment is hidden away.
But to run with the "shooting" down a Cessna thing, just for fun.
If the jet used only it's 20mm cannon, and the Cessna was whirly dirlying all over the place, going as slow as it could how easy/hard would it be to shoot the Cessna down? Would the jet be able to go slow enough to accurate hit the Cessna? Or more a spray and pray thing?
My_useless_alt@reddit
Personally, seeing how competent the Russian military is appearing, my money is on them both genuinely missing. IIRC the news article about it said that for one missile the engine didn't even light, that doesn't feel like EW to me on what should be a purely pyrotechnic/electromechanical system
stupidpower@reddit
I mean it's all speculation, we have accounts from one side that does not want to admit it almost shot down a NATO plane and two missiles magically launched and one side that absolutely does not want to reveal anything more than what the Russians found out when the uber secret EW a plane of that high strategic importance just have kicked in, whether it worked or not.
We'll probably never know, we don't even know. Not in our decades or lifetimes, not something this explosive. There are still a lot of stuff from WW2 and the early Cold War that are classified. We only learnt in the last 5 years the F-14 had microelectronic processors two years before computing history generally recognised civilians having invented it.
IISerpentineII@reddit
By "sustain," do you mean the duration of time the aircraft can keep up the same turn, or do you mean what the aircraft can handle and keep flying?
If you mean the latter, I wanted to point out that the F22 has a limiter system to prevent certain g-loads; not because the aircraft frame can't handle it (it can), but to protect the pilot from harming themselves. I'm not sure if the Typhoon has a similar system for the same reason. The F22 is also considered to have delta wings, just not strictly conventional delta wings. If you're talking about the max that the airframe can handle disregarding the pilot, you're right in that we'll likely never know what either is truly capable of, or at least we won't know until some moron leaks the details in War Thunder, lol.
If you're only referring to Gen 4.5 fighters and older, then my point doesn't really apply.
stupidpower@reddit
I am not sure actually, it's probably classified and very dependent on loadout/fuel/etc but from all credible accounts from a whole bunch of different countries F-22/F-35 whomps everything pre-merge. But it's all unknown unknowns until Hagseth shares it with Ronan Farrow
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/secret-reason-f-22-raptor-was-defeated-eurofighter-typhoon-213231
IISerpentineII@reddit
Lmao, I was so tempted to say something about ol' WhiskeyLeaks as well, but I wasn't sure how well that would be received here.
As for turn capabilities dependent on load, the F22 is apparantly capable of 9.0g turns at takeoff gross weight with full internal fuel. I won't pretend to know a whole lot of specifics about what other aircraft are capable of, but 9.0g's at full weight without any damage to the aircraft is kinda scary.
I wouldn't be able to source it as I recall seeing this on a program years ago that had F22 pilots, but I could've sworn the pilot said the aircraft is capable of maneuvers that would rip and tear the pilots internal organs, and that's why it has limiters. I was able to source that it has limiters for pilot safety, though, just not the exact statement.
Weekly_Bug_4847@reddit
I get the impression that, at least the F-22, as some system that even allies don’t know about for evading either detection or missiles. It’s always hinted about during Red Flags, that the Raptors aren’t actually flying to their real capabilities or using all equipment, that there’s something left behind. Is this something like active stealth or more advanced jamming? We’ll probably never know in our lifetimes.
Imtherealwaffle@reddit
When they talk about that stuff in red flags i think it usually means that the f-22 is flying with external fuel pods (which reduce stealth and maneuverability/speed) or that the f-22 is starting from a defensive position (like fully exposed in front of the attacking plane).
If they just let the f-22s fly clean and "shoot down" the other planes from 100 miles out every time then the exercise wouldnt really help to teach anyone anything.
I dont think theres anything super crazy or classified thats never been hinted at on the f-22. Im pretty sure the f-35 has more modern stealth features (like newer ram coating) and sensor suite.
Weekly_Bug_4847@reddit
They for sure aren’t allowed to use certain air combat tactics that “enhance” the stealth’s strengths and limit their shortcomings. Tactics they don’t want leaking out so adversary’s can counter it. They’ve hinted at actual systems, but never confirmed.
It’s more than just setting up the situation where the Raptor is on the defensive position.
stupidpower@reddit
I was going to make a joke that maybe political appointees in the current admin might just text it to us but between them I am not sure they would not understand any of the engineering lol
ParticularClassroom7@reddit
All EF2000 contemporaries are 9G at roughly the same regimes. The limiting factor is rather the pilot.
milestparker@reddit
That's fascinating. A lot of people in Canada have been arguing for replacing the F-35 with the Saab Gripen, others for Rafale -- for what should be obvious reasons. And I think one of the strongest arguments is the order of magnitude difference in maintenance, turn-around time, small strip (highway) landing, crew training, etc... Do you think those arguments hold water?
stupidpower@reddit
I mean at this point... you need those F-35s asap. Your CF-18s are literally on the verge of falling out of the skies. Like Carney will probably need to use it as a bargaining chip in your trade war (uughhh life sucks when you are from a country kinda dependent on US security umbrella), but any other option will take way too long. Bless the French and Swedish, but Rafale and Swedish production lines for military equipment are almost artisan because they don't have that high of a demand. Also breaking the contract will cost Canada a crazy amount setting aside all the training and equipment and infrastructure you already have bought or have contracts for buying that has to be re-negotiated, and military procurement in either very democratic or very corrupt countries are a shitshow that will drag out.
As someone from the tropics I have no idea what cold weather requirements are for Canada specifically, though, both operationally and maintenance wise. My little experience has been that military equipment whose job is to lie around until the unthinkable weapons really, really, does not like humidity and heat.
:/
Turbulent_Trip4147@reddit
Canada should get Rafale instead.
stupidpower@reddit
The French can make 3 Rafales per month with a backlog of 220 planes (even if the French forgo their own orders you still have Croatia who literally donated all their fighters to Ukraine under the promise they get replacements asap, and they have Serbia on their doorstep. Ditto with Greece. And that's just NATO allies, France will have to start paying for broken contracts to everyone else including the cash cow which is India) and has probably a decade+ of backlogs at this point, the CF-18s will literally need their spines replaced if you don't want the planes to start randomly disintegrating while flying in the next few years. Maybe if you are Ukraine if the US gives you all the spare parts and mercenary maintainers in the world you take the Australian legacy Hornets and fly them until they break apart because you are in a war for survival but Canada?
milestparker@reddit
Yeah, cold weather has a lot to do with it. My understanding is that the F 35 is kind of an hanger baby like you need a lot of specialized facilities and so on but as you point out sadly we’ve already started building those. And yeah, we’re aware of all of the procurement issues and production and so on. Sob has offered to have final assembly in Canada as they’re doing in Brazil, but obviously that’s a huge ramp up.
I think my question was more general than that, as in our the advantages of maintenance and operation costs as huge as they seem to be assuming that we could make all of those other issues go away, which of course is a huge assumption.
jorbeezy@reddit
Damn. This guy fighter jets
buerglermeister@reddit
That‘s the short answer?
stupidpower@reddit
There's probably a long answer a pilot and especially a command pilot in ops planning can tell you in more detail, than there's the answer that will take a truck full of paper (not even kidding) that even knowing will get people showing up to your house.
TxtC27@reddit
That's a masterpiece of a TL;DR
takinie44@reddit
Good read. Thanks!
topgeezr@reddit
Are they not in production? Wikipedia says Italy placed an order last December.
RECTUSANALUS@reddit
Sorry poor choice of words I’m a brit and we’re not getting any more but the Italians are
JimPalamo@reddit (OP)
Yeah other European nations are sticking with the Typhoon going forward. But RAF is ditching it in favour of more F-35s, right?
XrayZulu25@reddit
Correct. The UK realised they could not afford F35, Typhoon, and GCAP AND have them all within a feasible timescale. Typhoons are seen as expensive compared to other 4.5 gen fighters.
stupidpower@reddit
The F-35s are shared between the RAF and RN like harriers right? At any rate the more pressing issue is probably to have enough F-35Bs to fill a single carrier without having to embarrassingly have the USMC fill out half the airplanes on an otherwise half-capacity carrier.
BelowAverageLass@reddit
Technically the UK's F-35Bs are all part of a common pool that belongs to the RAF, but half of the operational jets are assigned to Fleet Air Arm squadrons. With Harrier the RAF and FAA operated different variants (though both were flown from carriers) so they had separate fleets.
CSG25 will have an all UK F-35B compliment, so while we will see USMC jets cross-decking in future it won't be due to a lack of UK jets.
I believe we currently have ~40 (expected to be 48 by the end of the year) so it's still a significant effort to put together a full carrier wing. The plan is to order more F-35Bs this year with a tentative target of 138 (I have my doubts about that), further Typhoons is considered a less cost effective purchase than than further F-35s.
Brainchild110@reddit
Nope, only the fleet are getting F35s. The rest is Eurofighters for the RAF. They won't be replaced until the Tempest comes online
topgeezr@reddit
Thanks, makes sense.
mat738@reddit
Italians, but before Germans and Spaniards
mike7257@reddit
Definitely in production. With continuous updates
blindfoldedbadgers@reddit
Yep, the Germans have just bought a new variant too - Typhoon EK, intended to replace the Tornado ECRs
stupidpower@reddit
I mean should they though? After the last 3 months the answer is probably yes but the Eurofighter is, like every other joint European military project, notoriously expensive for its capabilities because every country demands some work share or demands to use of its proprietary tech or weird-ass requirements (ahem France Ahem) or need to integrate a thousand different weapon systems into it because everyone has their own missiles. Typhoon, Tigre, NH90, Jaguar are the only ones that actually made it to operational use. And Europeans don’t buy enough of them to ever bring down the cost per unit, nor are able to centralise production - and usually half way through a country leaves the project (ahem France ahem) and cost estimates skyrocket again.
F-35 was supposed to solve most of this issues (and honestly it is actually only £10 million more per unit) but no one could have expected the U.S. to go nuts
blindfoldedbadgers@reddit
The EK is, from my understanding, more akin to a Growler than an F-35. While I’m sure the F-35 has a capable EW suite, it’s designed to do the exact opposite of what a stand-in jammer does.
In that context, it makes perfect sense. The EA-18 is based on an older aircraft, has no commonality with the rest of the Luftwaffe, and IIRC the production line has closed.
In comparison, Typhoon EK is common with the rest of Germany’s fleet, isn’t made by an increasingly unreliable ally, keeps Typhoon production active, and - admittedly - throws a bone to German manufacturers after the F-35 was procured for the nuclear strike role.
notjfd@reddit
Also, Typhoon is a twin-engine jet. It has more range, more speed, more payload capacity, and when it comes to offensive EW that is extremely important. These parameters bring the Typhoon into sufficient parity for this role with the F-35's stealth that it's not so clear cut which one is better.
Jaggedmallard26@reddit
For SEAD stealth is likely still king. Things like speed and capacity are of lesser import when you can lob missiles at air defences and have them impact before they're even aware they're under attack. In the current climate its nice to think that the 4.5 fighters are just as capable as the F35 but ever since the First Gulf War the primary SEAD lesson is that not having stealth makes it significantly more difficult and risky.
notjfd@reddit
Shh let me cope in peace. I already got told off by an F-35A pilot.
Max_Godstappen1@reddit
A two bag Typhoon has a smaller range than a F-35A
Source: I fly the F-35A
Trebus@reddit
Not the B though?
notjfd@reddit
I'll take your word for it. I'm just going off public specs on Wikipedia.
Brilliant-Smile-8154@reddit
Tornado, Transall, A400M, Alphajet...Where in the world have there been more successful multinational aviation projects than in Europe?
ParticularClassroom7@reddit
Multinational Fighter programs fucking sucks. Even the F-35 got shafted by the B model, which the Brits and US marines lobbied for.
stupidpower@reddit
The first three were stuck in development hell and overpriced for their capabilities, the fourth I am not too familiar with but trainers are not the hardest planes to build. Almost every Soviet and American comparable aircraft have been more successful than all 4 of those examples. Hell, the Hawk was so much more successful than the Alphajet primarily because it is built in one place.
Brilliant-Smile-8154@reddit
Doesn't answer my question though. Where in the world have there been more successful multinational aviation projects than in Europe?
stupidpower@reddit
But... that's the problem... multinational aviation projects when politics get involved in issues of productive efficiency and where there is not one requirement are bondongles. There's a reason why Rheinmetall decided to make their own next-gen tank knowing the Germans will have to buy it when the ongoing disaster of the Franco-German tank project collapses because France wants an airportable tank whilst Germany needs a heavy enough tank to storm the Steppe.
Brilliant-Smile-8154@reddit
But the Jaguar, Transall and Alphajet were anything but boondogles. They were all austere programs that fit the requirements without anything extra tacked on, and they all had long and successful service lives. Ironically, the French (ahem, ahem) were part of all three, so maybe they're not the problem. If there is a problem.
sofixa11@reddit
While you're not necessarily very wrong regarding the complexity of a multi-national program... The US has the same issues, just on a different scale. The supply chain has to be spread out in a bunch of states to ensure political support from representatives. The different services have their own specific requirements and systems that must be taken into account on joint programmes like the F-35 (and there are still compromises, like the single engine, which is not ideal for carrier operations).
The difference is that European joint military projects have a proven track record of success, even after all the issues and splits. F-35 is the first successful big joint Air Force/Navy/Marine Corps project, unless I'm missing something.
stupidpower@reddit
that's very true.
prse-sami@reddit
One of, but not the best 😉 Everyone knows the Rafale is the absolute overall best!
TheVengeful148320@reddit
Lol the F-15EX Eagle II has entered the chat. But still, take my up vote, the Rafael is one of the most beautiful fighters since the Spitfire.
prse-sami@reddit
I don't know much about the F-15EX, but I don't think it would win against the rafale in a procurement in a country looking for an omni role fighter.
I noticed that people tend to highly disregard the levels the rafale achieves as it was designed to be an omni role aircraft from scratch. It lacks a bit of power in the engines. it lacks stealth and bomb cargo, apart from that it's in part with the f35.
43Carats@reddit
F-15EX doesn't turn at all homie
TheVengeful148320@reddit
Your point?
Scruffy_Nerf_Hoarder@reddit
Good thing it's based on a platform that has won every dogfight it's been in.
CrouchingToaster@reddit
Is that the F15 that costs more than an F35?
TheVengeful148320@reddit
Yes.
RECTUSANALUS@reddit
Rafale might turn tighter but typhoon has better speed acceleration and more importantly better sensor package.
MalcolmGunn@reddit
Most Eurofighters don't even have an AESA radar yet. Maybe once that upgrade is complete.
UnluckyObject5777@reddit
Many Rafales don't either. At least in French service, only 30% have an AESA. But in general, I agree.
RECTUSANALUS@reddit
I’m putting the best euro fighter against the best rafale, most rafales don’t have two way datalink
Flying-Toto@reddit
Excellente pure fighter, over Rafale.
But Rafale in multirole is better
eruditezero@reddit
In what capacity? (Genuinely interested to know, on paper the latest models of each look very comparable)
pegzounet69@reddit
Rafale
Engines are better for a low level nuclear penetration profile.
Low speed handling and landing characteristics better with the close in canard, crucial for carrier work.
Layout allows long central payloads (exocet, ASMP, ASN4G).
Systems designed from the ground up for omnirole.
Eurofighter :
Front canards give more control authority even at high AoA.
Intake layout gives more direct air feed for mooaaaaaaar thruuuuust
Engines' happy place is high mach, high altitude.
Initially better radar for air to air work. now who the fuck really knows but probably comparable.
BelowAverageLass@reddit
Obviously we don't know a lot about the radars but we do know that very few Typhoons have AESA radars and only in Qatari and Kuwaiti service. The rest are still using the original mechanically scanned radar, which may well be better than RBE2 in some roles but is definitely not comparable to the RBE2-AA that Rafale has used since 2013.
It's also likely that all of the "Captor-E" variants are better than RBE2-AA simply because they're considerably larger and ~10 years newer.
Formal-Ad678@reddit
For one typhoon is multirole, the Raphael is swingrole. Diffrence is swingrole is just take missile off slap bomb on while multirole needs wireing done
aprikosentorte@reddit
That is not an accurate description. Multirole means that a formation could have the same type fulfilling different roles, e.g. 2 with an air to ground fit and 2 with an air to air fit. Swingrole is a mixed fit that implies a jet will fight its own way in and out.
Both of these jets would be 'swingrole' in this context, they both have good air to air and good air to ground capabilities.
The only major capability difference is that Rafale is Nuclear capable, Typhoon is not yet nuclear capable.
blindfoldedbadgers@reddit
Honestly the whole multirole/swingrole thing is just dassault marketing spin IMO. Considering basically every Typhoon combat sortie will have the jets equipped with a mix of Meteor/AMRAAM and IRIS/ASRAAM and they have virtually the same number of hardpoints (French Air Force jets have 1 more, French navy the same number as typhoon), I’d say both jets are equally capable of fighting their way in and out of a strike mission.
J-96788-EU@reddit
Raphael is a really nice guy.
Caspi7@reddit
Rafale*
J-96788-EU@reddit
No, I don't like that one.
salooski@reddit
My favorite ninja turtle
smurphy8536@reddit
Not in baldurs gate.
Formal-Ad678@reddit
After the 6th time i have given up trying to correct autocorrect 😅
G25777K@reddit
Rafale can be used out at sea on a carrier, they never made a Eurofighter for the navy. Lots of talks, just never happened.
eruditezero@reddit
I mean, thats pretty much entirely why Rafale exists.
pegzounet69@reddit
High altitude apex predator, as designed.
epsilona01@reddit
The only reasonable complaints are the lack of modular upgrades (tranches instead) and lack of a carrier variant, hence the Dassault Rafale.
CptCap@reddit
No CATOBAR is one of reason, but not the only one. Being able to carry the ASMP and being fully multirole are the two other big ones AFAIK.
epsilona01@reddit
The F35-C is overpriced, very late, and about half of the US fleet is waiting for repair because the skills transfer from contractor to forces along with the part supply is a decade late.
We've bought some to go with our carriers, but it's just dumb that we didn't install CATOBAR for £2 billion, when we're now going to spend £6 billion on CATOBAR and EMALS to support drone ops and land the Rafale M, when 2/3rd of our air fleet can't go near a carrier.
twisterssquid@reddit
New f35 costs less than a new Rafale
epsilona01@reddit
Depends on how many you're buying and what tiering arrangement you have with the manufacturing country, and the upfront cost is irrelevant, maintenance and upgrades are where the real money is.
A new Rafale costs about $84 million to $124.95 million USD, more for the B and M variants depending on whose price you choose to believe.
France bought 42 for €5.5 billion in 2024, giving a unit cost including maintenance of €130 million, or $140 million USD.
The UK program for 138 F35-C has a cost projection of £18 billion, putting the unit cost at £130 million or $167 million USD. That doesn't even account for the delayed delivery and cost overruns. Scrapping the program has been repeatedly discussed.
Therefore, we can say the Rafale is cheaper based on recent large purchases. The joy of the Rafale is modular upgrades, the F35-C variant is complicated to upgrade and complicated to maintain in comparison. The one the UK lost was down to helmet failure, you can't land the thing on a carrier without a functioning HUD, and this critical area has been the subject of multiple failures going back 10 years.
Reportedly maintenance is still entirely reliant on Lockheed, 10 years after the US military was supposed to have taken over, critical systems failures have been continuous. The F35-A CATOBAR is a much better buy, easy to maintain because it's a less complicated plane, and comparatively easy to land on a carrier.
A September 2023 Government Accountability Office (GAO) report on the F-35 indicated only 15% of the US fleet are combat ready.
https://euro-sd.com/2024/07/major-news/39170/f-35-the-future-or-trainwreck/
https://www.gulf-insider.com/70-or-more-of-f-35s-may-not-be-combat-capable/
https://www.congress.gov/crs-product/R48304
twisterssquid@reddit
If you are okay with the capability gap, sure, those billions look nice. Wonder what the pilots would have to say on that.
The 2023 report goes into exactly why readiness rates are so low. I am going to quote that 2023 report: "The analysis projected that if DOD (department of defense) achieved planned depot capacity, the air vehicle availability rates of the F-35B and F-35C would be close to 65%, while the air vehicle availability rate of the F-35A would be 75%."
IN OTHER WORDS : It is not so much the plane, but the slow construction repair depots meant to sustain them.
epsilona01@reddit
What capability gap? The A and C variants are basically the same. The Rafale is 4.5G same as our existing Typhoon fleet. I suspect that we will drop the F-35C program in favour of the Rafale F5 primarily because it's a better fit with our new drone paradigm which we'll be using French manufacturing for any way. That and Elomp.
In fact the major problems are both facility and technicians, Lockheed was supposed to train, build, and equip the depots. They failed. We're already seeing the same issues in the UK and then there are the benighted software problems.
twisterssquid@reddit
I meant capability gap between the Rafale and F35 in general. But that is moot at this point. You will, indeed, need to drop F35 thanks to you know who. Sorry if my posts came off as combative, I was seeking clarity.
epsilona01@reddit
Basically, the UK has a problem with procurement and making sensible joined up decisions. We decided to get back into carriers, but having gone from 12 to only six modern destroyers (with a questionable ABM upgrade, questionable networking, and questionable radar max-range) our alleged carrier strike group capability is questionable.
Our very new destroyer was shown up badly during the Red Sea mission last year, where we managed less than two months on task before needing to re-arm, when the 1990 USS Carney sat there kicking ass for 7 months.
The carriers themselves are cheap - we designed three and went with the least expensive, least capable version, after turning France down on a cooperation agreement. No nuclear engines, we turned down a £2 billion CATOBAR upgrade during manufacturing, and we launched without any aircraft as a consequence.
The new F35-C fleet is shared between the RAF and the Navy, meaning we currently have 2 operational wings of 8 craft with a third spooling up, but with a capacity for 40 aircraft and 72 in surge having only 8–16 aircraft available is somewhat embarrassing especially as we can only cooperate with the US rather than land Sea Gripen and Rafele M too.
In the meantime, we've started a doctrinal change moving towards wingman drones and carrier drone operations, which is going to require a deck extension for an angled CATOBAR landing strip and two EMALS launchers weighing in at £6 billion which is leading to questions about the peak power draw on the engines.
rstune@reddit
Nice writeup. I've had a vague idea that the Royal Navy, and the British military in general was in bad shape but that's a lot worse than I thought.
Interesting to hear more details about the last bit with Elomp if you can.
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
[removed]
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aviation-ModTeam@reddit
This sub is about aviation and the discussion of aviation, not politics and religion.
aviation-ModTeam@reddit
This sub is about aviation and the discussion of aviation, not politics and religion.
hgwaz@reddit
I feel like France was gonna make its own thing regardless, they're big on defence independence. Especially when it comes to their nuclear first strike capability.
reddit_pengwin@reddit
France had legitimate feature needs that the other partner nations didn't want to accommodate because they would have increased costs for everybody... the split was all kind of inevitable.
I'm glad it happened, IMHO it is good to have multiple competing European designs, and it is great to have the Rafale which is my favorite jet by looks.
hgwaz@reddit
Yeah it makes sense to have different planes accomodate different requirements of course. The big problem from a defense economics perspective is the reduced amount of planes built. There's a reason the F-35 is only 80 mil with the amount of tech that's in them.
Luk---@reddit
Rafale and Eurofighter are not aiming the same target. The Eurofighter was conceived as a fighter first. When the project was launched, Great Britain and Germany had the Tornado. It is more powerful, faster, heavier than the Rafale. The Eurofighter has a better turn rate, the Rafale has a better angle of attack at low speed.
Rafale has been conceived as a carrier and multirole aircraft. France wanted to replace many planes by just one. The land based version is a derivative of the naval one. Studies were conducted to navalized the Eurofighter but since it wasn't build from the ground up for the task it was pretty complicated and the project was dropped in favor of F-35B.
A big difference between the two planes is the landing gear. It is mounted in the fuselage in the Rafale and in the wings for the Eurofighter. The wing mounted landing gear is taking a lot of space under the wing and heavy ordonance can't be easily be fited. The ventral points are not suited to carry heavy loads. It's often seen with a designation pod.
The result is that while the Rafale is about 1 ton lighter than the Eurofighter, its max wheight is 3.5 tons heavier. The maximum range is about the same with a little advantage to the Eurofighter.
In the end, the Eurofighter has little success on the commercial market.
Thekingofchrome@reddit
If they can afford it, and agree with Germany, which hasn’t happened since the Alpha Jet.
hgwaz@reddit
No that's actually currently happening with FCAS
Thekingofchrome@reddit
But hasn’t happened, they haven’t got a company yet, let alone built a prototype. It’s not due to fly until 2040 at the earliest.
hgwaz@reddit
That applies to every sixth gen program
Thekingofchrome@reddit
I get that, but the point is agreement is still needed and evidence suggests this hasn’t happened since the 60s/70s, France hasn’t played well with others, and can’t develop this on their own.
sofixa11@reddit
Not necessarily, there have been a few successful naval collaborations between France and Italy/Spain where each did a custom version of a common design.
So it could have worked, in theory.
hgwaz@reddit
Sure, as they're even developing their next aircraft together with spain, germany and a few other minor partners (FCAS). It still makes sense for them to have first strike fully self built.
epsilona01@reddit
History has just proven them correct, besides they're a major missile, shipping, submarine, and defence exporter it would be a bad look buying in nukes from someone else. Our British Trident program is just embarrassing, we're overly reliant on America for guidance data, degaussing, and parts. Three recent tests have all failed.
I think they would have stayed with Eurofighter had there been a carrier variant - that was the red line. They were also completely right on modularity, we just ditched all our Tranche 1's because they're not upgradable, a complete waster. I've heard fighter pilots say the Eurofighter has a better turn fight capability than the Rafale, but this seems like a minor complaint.
SparrowTits@reddit
Saw one on ADSB the other day at 54,400 ft
Trebus@reddit
Multiple Typhoons are out every day, pretty much.
ikergarcia1996@reddit
Tecnically, the true apex predator was cancelled. The initial plan was to design two aircraft, a multi-role one, and a pure air-superiority one. Later, both of the design were merged into what is today the eurofigther. Which is a great aircraft, and has many air-superiority capabilities. But for a short period of time, it had a more letal brother.
Okano666@reddit
Sure against a Cessna
DSA300@reddit
Lmaooooo bro got downvoted to hell 🤣
Okano666@reddit
Lmao new record
Ficsit-Incorporated@reddit
Dude just put down the shovel
DSA300@reddit
💀💀😭
Okano666@reddit
BBC, Mail Online, Reddit same moderator’s. 500 is cheap come on
Okano666@reddit
Oh no downvotes my life what am I gonna do
SebVettelstappen@reddit
Everything he said was true, I think that the Typhoon has an honest to god shot against a Cessna 172
Ficsit-Incorporated@reddit
Well deserved
Greedybogle@reddit
Are you suggesting the Cessna has the advantage in this matchup
Ficsit-Incorporated@reddit
Clearly! Everyone knows the 152 has a way tighter turn radius than the Typhoon.
Yes, this is exactly how armchair generals think when they fixate on one statistic or capability without wider context.
aitorbk@reddit
You forgot the swarm tactics of hundreds of cessnas with .50s ;)
hgwaz@reddit
The cessna can fly a lot slower than the typhoon. I've been told by a pilot they when escorting small aircraft they're basically sitting on their jets. They also have to be careful not to get too close because the vortices created by the much more massive typhoon's jet will send those small planes spinning to the ground.
Okano666@reddit
Beats five years gotta say
DSA300@reddit
Fr I've never seen those many downvotes 😭 so many you got negative ratioed 😭
Okano666@reddit
BBC, Mail Online moderators hate my comments too bless ‘em
-Space-Pirate-@reddit
https://youtu.be/fgIZ9PT8CtA?si=IquNv1bgDiyPr5s3
RAF Typhoon performing at RIAT in the same paint job
HS_Seraph@reddit
The newer version with an AESA is a contender for the single best non low observable fighter design in service, only competing with other eurocanards (rafale, gripen) for that spot.
Very strong kinematic performance, good sensors and datalink for its time, can field the single best air to air missile in service in the meteor.
I'd argue that even the sukhoi 57, despite following 5th gen design principles only maybe matches the typhoon in capability, not exceeding it (larfely due to russian limitations in low observable designs and avionics)
BelowAverageLass@reddit
Just on the EW front, there's a wholesale upgrade in development that will apparently be retrofitable to in service airframes. Also the current system has been supplemented with BriteCloud (confirmed in RAF service, don't know about others) which is probably the best RF decoy available, so I think Typhoon's EW is still competitive for now.
Original--Lie@reddit
The euro fighter is less observable than you might think, although not total stealth, a lot went into reducing the rcs in the forward facing 90 deg, where it really matters.
Side or rear, yeah, lights up like an Xmas tree.
HS_Seraph@reddit
Yep, IIRC the super hornet is similar in that regard.
Thats why i made the su-57 comparison, because while it uses 5th generation LO design concepts, certain tradeoffs like the intake design combined with Russia's less precise manufacturing mean its frontal RCS is reduced compared to its size but not by an absurd amount like you'd see on f-35 or j-20. Making it more directly comparable to the typhoon.
Hoppy-pup@reddit
It’s an exceptionally good, highly capable aircraft. There’s no 4th gen US equivalent that could outperform the Eurofighter.
It’s such shame that Europe skipped 5th gen so now we have to wait until 2035 for European 5th gen.
Consistent-Night-606@reddit
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't one of the F15 models the most capable 4th gen?
Hoppy-pup@reddit
Depends what you mean by “capable”. As a missile truck, the F-15 has always been the best.
But as a highly adaptable, multi-role fighter, capable of fulfilling every role from air—to-air intercepts to long-range bombing missions, to an exceptional standard, the Eurofighter is definitely the king of the 4th gens.
Kardinal@reddit
I think you're probably right about a single aircraft. Many of the f-15s air-to-air kills were by the dedicated air-to-air version which is very much on its way out. The f-15ex does look very promising even in an air-to-air role, but it's unproven.
The f-15ex is a better ground attack aircraft, but if you need one specific fighter that can do all of it, looks like the typhoon is pretty hard to beat.
prophettoloss@reddit
how many of those kills were after the merge? i dont know but I would guess not many
Jaggedmallard26@reddit
If you're engaging WVR post-merge then something has gone wrong. Obviously you plan for the worst case scenario but the US prioritising avoiding that worse case is probably the right move in the same way the British army still issues bayonets and trains (and periodically executes in anger) bayonet charges but they still primarily focus on infantry shooting from afar.
BelowAverageLass@reddit
Depends on the context, there have been several conflicts where the rules of engagement required visually identifying an aircraft before engaging. In a full scale, peer conflict you shouldn't be engaging WVR, but that's not the only kind of conflict you need to prepare for.
Kardinal@reddit
I don't know either.
But I know the Eagle has more gun kills than the Typhoon. That means close range kills.
Post merge is not what matters. What matters is how effectively it accomplishes a given mission. Missions are not "kill within visual range". They are "intercept" or "establish air dominance" or "escort this aircraft" or "maintain air superiority."
The Typhoon is not much more proven than the F-15EX. Neither has many kills. One and zero respectively if my numbers are correct.
In the end this is just amateurs speculating. Those who know do not speak of it. Except to each other.
__Gripen__@reddit
That’s so blatantly wrong.
It will become true with the release of Phase 4E sofwtare and introduction of the E-SCAN Mk2 AESA radar and updated DASS suite, but at this stage the Typhoon in service with the RAF is not really the “king of multirole” at all.
Let alone if you consider Typhoons of other European nations, which have fallen behind in updates compared to the British ones.
And I’m saying this as an aviation geek who absolutely loves the Typhoon.
TheOriginalNukeGuy@reddit
What about the SU-30SM2? Pretty solid overall package, and the r37m makes it pretty dangerous to enabler aircraft.
Kardinal@reddit
I agree with you that bringing up that aircraft is relevant to the discussion. I don't happen to think it's better than either of the other two, primarily because of its limitations in the electronics area, but I'm sure you understand that read it long ago. Abandoned the idea that you can contribute meaningfully to a conversation and should get upvotes even when they disagree with you. And that if you mention something that's unpopular and say something good about it, you're going to get downvoted. It's unfortunate, but it's true.
I don't like Russia and I hate what they're doing in Ukraine as well. But you're absolutely right. That doesn't mean that make everything they make is terrible and we should bury our heads in the sand and ignore them. The sukhoi 27 line in general is a fine set of fighter aircraft.
TheOriginalNukeGuy@reddit
I agree with you that it's probably not up to par with the other 2 aircraft in certain regards. I just brought it up because I find it to be an interesting aircraft that, for all intents and purposes, is one of the Eurofighters' main rivals, and nobody in the comments mentioned it. Definitely not saying it's a better overall package, but it sure does have some areas where it outdoes its competitors (mainly in its armament and carrying capacity) and I thought it would be interesting to discuss and see what people think. But people just disregard it as with most chinese or russian aircraft, which I find sad, especially in a sub dedicated to those beautiful machines. I hoped people here could set those things aside, but yeah, c'est la vie, it's reddit after all.
Echo017@reddit
Fantastic airframe held back by avionics, sensor package and turbines
TheOriginalNukeGuy@reddit
I agree with the engines being aneimic proportional to the aircraft, but I think the avionics and sensors are fine, it has an AESA radar and afterall they wouldn't be able to use the r37m to its full extent if the radar wasn't any good.
Charlie3PO@reddit
It has a PESA radar. Similar concept to AESA in the sense it can steer the beam electronically, but less capability because the beam cannot be split across multiple frequencies at the same time. This gives it less flexibility and also makes it more vulnerable to both detection and jamming compared to an AESA.
TheOriginalNukeGuy@reddit
Oh, yeah mb I was under the impression it had an AESA, thanks for telling me.
TiLeddit@reddit
the Eurofighter is definitely the king of the 4th gens.
I may be biased but I believe you are overlooking the Swedish JAS-39 Gripen.
Wall_Significant@reddit
Gripen shouldn’t be in the conversation. Rafale and the Eurofighter are pretty much tied for king tho.
diprivanity@reddit
Gripen simps are not bullied enough
Kardinal@reddit
The Gripen is a very efficient fighter but it doesn't have the power, range, or payload to play with the Rafale or Typhoon or Eagle.
Hoppy-pup@reddit
Hahaha! I love the Gripen! But, c’mon now…
Ayfid@reddit
The F15EX can carry more missiles.
The Typhoon was designed more than anything to be a long range high altitude interceptor, and it excels in that role.
The latter is probably on the whole the more capable.
Kardinal@reddit
If you're talking about a pure long-range, high altitude interceptor, it's hard to imagine the typhoon is better than the F-15ex.
The F-15 has an incredibly high service Ceiling, is extremely fast, and obviously has Superior beyond visual range fighting capabilities compared to the typhoon. The typhoon definitely has it over the Eagle in a dogfight, but that's not an interceptor role. An interceptor's job is to get up high fast, get to the target fast, and kill it as fast as possible. The eagle has a higher crime rate, a higher service ceiling, a higher top speed, and better bvr missile capabilities.
Maro1947@reddit
There are no new F-15 Interceptors. The EX isn't one.
And Meteor is a generation ahead of AMRAAM
ParticularClassroom7@reddit
The best pure long range, high altitude interceptor is MiG-31, because it's the only thing it's good at.
Kardinal@reddit
Indeed. And the only thing it was designed for.
ParticularClassroom7@reddit
In what way? Strike capability (Su-34), air dominance (Su-35/F-15/EF2000), interdiction (MiG-31), endurance (Su-35), using make-shift runways (MiG-29, Gripen), etc..
Everything has to be in context.
JimPalamo@reddit (OP)
Apples and oranges. Eurofighter was designed to be exceptional at manoeuvrability and WVR dogfighting. US fighter tactics prioritise speed and stealth.
Kardinal@reddit
I don't think that really applies to the 4th generation. Certainly not in regard to stealth.
The top speed of the f-15 is very high, but I think that's more a function of. It's very powerful engines that are primarily designed to give it a great deal of energy every area of the envelope. The eagle and the viper were both developed after the problems of dog fighting in the Vietnam war. I think a lot of lessons were learned there about the need for short-range capabilities. Especially once it was understood that the Sparrow is an extremely unreliable missile.
In the case of the eagle, I think it's fair to say that it is an energy fighter. Which does emphasize energy and power more than raw turning radius and maneuverability. But in the case of the viper, and remember, there are more of those than there are eagles, it's very much about visual range dog fighting.
Pale_Change_666@reddit
The f15 ex or the f16 block 70 super Viper
TheVengeful148320@reddit
Aren't the EX and Block 70 basically considered 4.5 gen? Then again I think the Eurofighter at this point pretty much would be too.
Hoppy-pup@reddit
Yeah Eurofighter was the first of the ‘4.5’ gens, I think?
Brilliant-Smile-8154@reddit
Well, Rafale flew first.
TheVengeful148320@reddit
That's what I was thinking.
Pale_Change_666@reddit
Yup, essentially.
AutisticToasterBath@reddit
Completely inaccurate. F15 wins that fight.
_aware@reddit
Not even close. The Typhoon should handily win against a F15
Kardinal@reddit
What's your reasoning? The assertion was that no American 4th generation can outperform a Typhoon. That's a pretty broad statement. In what role? For what mission? With what support?
One on one, as most know, is meaningless.
_aware@reddit
As a general rule, most of these western fighters leverage the best technology in the world at the time they were designed. So a plane that's introduced almost 30 years later is almost certainly going to have a better overall design just by the virtue of coming later and being able to learn lessons taught by their predecessors. Upgrades in existing airframes are restricted by power capacity and existing design flaws/restrictions, so newer planes are generally more adaptable to modern upgrades.
Kardinal@reddit
I certainly don't disagree with you as a general rule. We learn a great deal every decade about how to make weapon systems much much better. And of course there are developments in metallurgy and chemical and electronic technologies that are huge advantages.
But you said it quite definitively and you said it as an overall and I'm not sure that you can take a general rule and apply it quite so specifically. I think you can make a case that the typhoon is a better air-to-air combat platform than the eagle, for example, but because the strike Eagle for instance, has a different focus, and one that the typhoon was less focused on, I don't think it's necessarily the case to say that the typhoon is better at everything.
I agree that airframes matter. And decisions made in the 1970 still hamper the performance of an f-15ex manufactured in 2024.
I think one of the problems is that the advances that have been made in that. Often don't show up in the basic statistics that the public has access to. Things like top speed and range and climb and thrust to weight ratio. It's in things like low speed acceleration or air flow or other things that are probably too advanced for me to know about.
In the end, these conversations among amateurs are really just blind people groping around in the dark. We don't really understand what we're talking about and even if we did, we don't have access to the kind of information that would lead to reliable decisions.
_aware@reddit
Outside of things like raw payload size, what would any version of the F15 do that the Typhoon can't do just as well or better?
I'm comparing Typhoon Tranche 4 vs F15EX, and the EX is really showing the airframe design limitations compared to the Typhoon T4. In air to air, the Typhoon is pretty much going to dominate the EX unless the EX gets big help from external sources. The AIM120 and AIM9X are just two more examples of upgrades being held back by the older base design.
This is not to say that the F15 is bad. It's just older. The whole point is that it's "good enough" against most adversaries, and we can always call on the bigger fish in F22 and F35 if needed. If the US decided to develop a completely new 4th gen airframe today, it would probably stomp the Typhoon and Rafale too. It's going to start with far more advanced sensors, materials, design theories, etc.
Of course you are right that these things are largely classified and we are clueless commenters on the side. But I think it's just natural for the Typhoon to be a better airframe in most cases just by being almost 30 years newer, so it had access to more advanced everything while it was in the design phase.
Prestigious-Mess5485@reddit
What about the F-15EX?
Several-Eagle4141@reddit
It’s not a dogfighter. So when they only compare dogfighting skills the F15 is “worse”. The f15ex can supposedly carry 12 amraams.
Evening-Physics-6185@reddit
I remember listening to a podcast where an f15e pilot said that and the ex models were comparable to a mirage f1 in wvr ! It’s certainly not a dogfighter!
Several-Eagle4141@reddit
It is so overpowered too. It’s a real beast. Don’t make fun of a heavyweight for not being as nimble as a flyweight
Prestigious-Mess5485@reddit
Oh, so he was referring to its dog fighting ability. Gotcha, makes sense.
Hoppy-pup@reddit
Actually, I was referring its multi-role capabilities, and its ability to perform each role to an exceptional level.
Don’t get me wrong, I love the F-15, and as a missile truck it’s unbeatable, but it’s not as capable as the Eurofighter.
Prestigious-Mess5485@reddit
I'm not that familiar with the Eurofighter, but I do know it is very highly regarded.
Several-Eagle4141@reddit
The F15 is designed to be the muscle that carries the gear. They’re now the roadies of the band. The F22 data linked to F35s all giving the F15s all the targeting data they need.
Prestigious-Mess5485@reddit
It's a really cool aircraft and idea. Growing up in the 90s, the F15 will always have a place in my heart lol.
Hoppy-pup@reddit
The F-15 is (and always has been) the best missile truck.
But the Eurofighter performs exceptionally well in every role. In my view, its adaptability and capability in each of its roles makes it superior to the F-15.
JimPalamo@reddit (OP)
I think people do tend to think of the typhoon as a pure dogfighter, but forget that it also has excellent CAS and ATG capabilities.
Hoppy-pup@reddit
Definitely!
thorpey182@reddit
F35 is 5th and plenty of them in Europe?
Rayuzan_Mojavec@reddit
They meant regionally built 5th gen fighter, not an import
i_should_go_to_sleep@reddit
Italy (Leonardo) makes F-35s in Italy…
Or do you mean regionally built as a domestically designed product?
Rayuzan_Mojavec@reddit
Oh right that too, regionally designed
thorpey182@reddit
Ah my mistake, misinterpreted what they meant. My bad!
Hoppy-pup@reddit
You’ll find that air forces outside the US aren’t so keen on the F-35 any more, for obvious reasons.
steeze_y@reddit
Eh, they will buy them.
Captain_Ahab2@reddit
Don’t know if I’d trust it, it’s made in Europe…
highdiver_2000@reddit
Dated airframe design. Avionics way behind the curve.
dallatorretdu@reddit
they say that in Red Flags they’re extremely strong when merging… but until all the fleet gets the AESA radar, the ones with the mechanical dish suffer in BVR range-wise
Nighthawk-FPV@reddit
The main benefit of AESAs isn’t range (many MSAs can outrange AESAs).
AESAs can scan much more intelligently, quicker and with a reduced probability of intercept.
GHOST-GAMERZ@reddit
You want the manual? I gotcha bro
BriefCollar4@reddit
Please no.
Cultural_Mastodon_69@reddit
Found the War Thunder gamer!
Vertigo_uk123@reddit
Plus a full suite of AP’s for every aircraft. Please sent to P.Vutin@definintlynotrussia.ru
davidfliesplanes@reddit
Isn't it the most agile western fighter apart from the F-22?
Late-Application-47@reddit
I don't know. I think a "clean" F-16 loaded up for A2A likely tops the Eurofighter in maneuverability. We've gotten so used to seeing heavily-laden F-16s with conformal and/or drop tanks and A2G munitions that it's hard to imagine its genesis as a light, WVR fighter. It was the first supersonic fighter with a higher instaneous turn-rate than the MiG-17. Even today, I think its near the top in that regard.
The F-16N model, briefly used by Navy Aggressor Squadrons, is said to have been the hottest Viper. Slick with a big engine.
For what it's worth, the A model F-35 has been showing the world not to underestimate its maneuverability. Some of the more recent air show performances have been extremely impressive.
I don't know enough about Rafale and Gripen to add them to this commentary.
Icy-Communication823@reddit
Yeah, but right now allies, like us in Australia, are seriously considering our relationship due to the current administration.
LegitimateSubject226@reddit
Think you’ve got problems - we’ve got F35s AND Trident ICBMs
Icy-Communication823@reddit
Meh. We'll just go to ground and head bush and wait it out. Nobody is invading northern Australia and getting even half way with out every single soldier dying from the elements.
RecoverCandid9760@reddit
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
mark-haus@reddit
It has a pretty large nose cone, what’s preventing them from upgrading to AESA?
Kernoriordan@reddit
Upgrade is in progress - £ is main concern.
Nice_Classroom_6459@reddit
€*
oldtreadhead@reddit
Not since Brexit.
DMQ53@reddit
Nope, UK never used euros.
oldtreadhead@reddit
Spare tuppence for a fool?
LundiDesSaucisses@reddit
Industrial clusterfuck.
Late-Application-47@reddit
The Brits should have just ponied up the $$$ and invested in an F-15 fleet when the Lightening retired. The Tornado ADV was an industrial clusterfuck of its own, attempting to defy the laws of aeronautical engineering by making it a high-altitude interceptor. I hear it got "pretty good" by Mk4, but it was never really acceptable.
Even upgraded Phantoms would have been a better choice. The British Phantoms already had turbofans, and we saw throughout the 90s and early 2000s how various air forces kept their Phantoms capable and relevant. The Israelis worked magic on Phantoms and even MiG-21s during that time frame.
Ser_Danksalot@reddit
>I hear it got "pretty good" by Mk4, but it was never really acceptable
As a ground attack aircraft, by the end of its lifespan it was formidable. Here's footage of a [GR4 flying just above the deck, salvo firing 6 Brimstones at 6 separate targets and direct hitting them all](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CoGKPMmdGDk).
Late-Application-47@reddit
I'm specifically talking about the ADV variant. GR4 was a beast for sure.
Gutsm3k@reddit
Current events are rather proving the wisdom of maintaining our domestic air industry to be entirely honest.
Late-Application-47@reddit
I agree.
Gutsm3k@reddit
At this point I'm just praying the Tempest turns out okay so that I can get a new European aircraft to simp for.
SoftConfidence9444@reddit
i like it better as airliner
Glum-Engineer9436@reddit
How important is the airframe these days?
KaysaStones@reddit
Depends what your doing, but say you’re trying to conduct a precision strike DEEP in Iran, you may want some stealthy characteristics
Jaggedmallard26@reddit
The main lesson from the air war in Ukraine seems to be that being stealthy is important in every scenario. Primarily because the air war has taken the form of dangerous nap of the earth flying and lobbing stand off munitions from aircraft deep in Russia to try and avoid the tyranny of anti-air weapons. If your opponent has non-trivial anti-air capability then you want stealth.
MassiveCombination15@reddit
It’s super cool and all that but I find it ugly asf 😭
Old-Car-9962@reddit
How come? I think it looks good! Maybe the canards aren't for everyone
vtGaem@reddit
I'm pretty sure it's more the cardboard box intakes that ruin it. Otherwise a neat looking plane. Gotta hand it to the french, they at least got the looks right. And the RBE2-AA.
Adventurous-Bat-9254@reddit
It can operate without the US turning it off. You get sovereignty.
vtGaem@reddit
Idk why people are downvoting this. It is a genuine concern of F-35 buyers. Not something that's very likely to happen, but concidering the money being dumped on them, any chance of them not working when needed is too much risk.
zebra1923@reddit
Fabulous all round fighter/attack aircraft. Paired with AESA and long range missiles a great interceptor. Agile WTH great power for dogfights, excellent air to ground arsenal.
Only challenge for the UK is we don’t have enough of them.
Asystole@reddit
It's certainly better in that role than as a passenger jet.
GoldWingANGLICO@reddit
My cousin flew the Tornado GR4. He transitioned into the Typhoon and loves it.
He has been over to the state's for Red Flag.
Tribe303@reddit
Cool, but still eclipsed by the Saab Gripen no?
M32MGL@reddit
No, not in any regard. I'm not really sure where the idea that the gripen, a light fighter, outperforms the Typhoon which is a medium fighter and meant to be more capable.
The Gripens main selling points come from it being economical (Which isn't really true for modern Gripens)
Tribe303@reddit
I was wondering what the difference was but I see the Typhoon can carry more ordinance faster and further.
This is odd because here in Canada the procurement contest to replace our aging F-18s was between the F-35 (the winner), Gripen and Typhoon. The Typhoon was dropped in round one and the final decision was between the F-35 and the Gripen. I'll have to research why it was dropped. IP/manufacturing restrictions perhaps?
Considering recent events most Canadians are lusting over the Gripen once they replace the American engines.
g_core18@reddit
Not the ones that know anything about the subject
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
[removed]
AutoModerator@reddit
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Kardinal@reddit
I think the question of whether to go with the f-35 or the Gripen comes down to cost. There's no question that the f-35 is a far more capable aircraft, but is it worth what is probably double the cost? There are probably other considerations including commonality of logistics with other NATO partners though.
atomicsnarl@reddit
I like the Normandy stripes!
VicPortnoy@reddit
Prime Minister Carney is that you? 💪🏻
canspar09@reddit
I have nothing meaningful to add - however, I believe the RAF should all adopt this livery theme immediately.
I’d likewise like the RCAF to adopt a similar livery across all aircraft.
I know it doesn’t help, but it harkens back to the formative years and it’s a 10/10 paint scheme at any rate.
Stephen4398@reddit
Anything is preferable to Lockheed Martin’s F-35. Cancel the order and sell the 16 we bought to Cuba or Venezuela.
cosmo2450@reddit
Delta wings and canards are sexy. But stealth and BVR of later jets will quickly out date it.
Oedipus____Wrecks@reddit
It’s going to have to be in combat first to make any judgment…
scroopynoopers07@reddit
I accidentally read “commuter aircraft” instead of “combat aircraft”…
rnavstar@reddit
Beats the traffic on your way to work.
aaarry@reddit
Some of them have two seats, and all are owned by the government. That’s a form of public transport in my eyes.
Js987@reddit
NASA has moved priority cargo and astronauts ”commute” sometimes with their T-38s, so it’s entirely plausible.
MainColette@reddit
Public transport for high urgency situations.
Ficsit-Incorporated@reddit
It transports pilots between airbases and mission areas. It’s government owned. I’m struggling to find fault with their logic.
TheThiccestOrca@reddit
I'd pay big to get a 600km flight over with in less than 20 minutes.
rathgrith@reddit
Just don’t be pressured into a flight and pull the ejection handle in a panic right after takeoff
ScottOld@reddit
Would be great on the commute as well
Dogfaceman_10@reddit
It's fab man, really!
Js987@reddit
Much better than it does as a commercial airliner.
Ok_Needleworker5837@reddit
I am in no way qualified to have an educated opinion on this aircraft. The only thing i can say is: "Looks neat."
randomroute350@reddit
right while the other 99% in here speak like they've flown or gone up against them
According-Ad3963@reddit
Has it been in combat?
DailyDoseofDairy@reddit
Decent question, would like to see statistics for its efficacy
GaiusJocundus@reddit
I can safely say I have no thoughts on this particular topic whatsoever.
salvatore813@reddit
my knowledge on airplanes and it's history may not be good but are those invasion stripes with the old raf roundel?
Nonions@reddit
Yes this is a memorial paint scheme
salvatore813@reddit
Ah, I hope there is a photo of the hawker typhoon side by side with the eurofighter typhoon?
SnakeBit74@reddit
There is only one complete Hawker Typhoon left in existence unfortunately, in the RAF Museum in London.
TempoHouse@reddit
Yes, but there's also currently project to return one to airworthiness: https://hawkertyphoon.com/
Space-manatee@reddit
It staggers me how many planes were made in WW2, and how many are still flying
Examples:
Lancaster - 2 out of 7377
B17 - 10 out of 12,731
Hurricane - 16 out of 14,583
I know they’re 70+ years and how many were lost etc but still amazes me
Tintop2k@reddit
There's a photo of it with a spitfire in this gallery https://britishairshows.com/photos-duxford-flying-finale-best-of
gwildor75@reddit
Great album 👍
hopperschte@reddit
Looks rad!
gromm93@reddit
Oh thank god. I thought it was AI slop.
Failure80@reddit
This is brilliant. Love it.
ButterscotchJade2025@reddit
At Euro fighter time development USA already had built the F117 and was deep into F22 creation why did Europeans as a group go so old school? Funds or talent?
Kardinal@reddit
More like they got the fighter that they needed. They didn't need an F-22. And they wanted something more advanced than the f-15. So they got something that was both.
ButterscotchJade2025@reddit
Lost me at more advanced than F15, too many cooks and not enough chefs.
Kardinal@reddit
Well, that's a function of you not liking the design, not a function of whether it's more advanced. It is more advanced. It was basically made 20 years later. Which means it leveraged technology that had advanced by 20 years.
In what way is it not more advanced than the original f-15c and f-15e?
ButterscotchJade2025@reddit
Not gonna talk classified here , just ask how many countries lining up for Europe fighter outside the consortium that made them The procurement totals were as follows: the UK 232, Germany 180, Italy 121, and Spain 87. total of approximately 1,763 F-15 aircraft of all variants (A/B/C/D/J/DJ/E/K/SG/SA/QA/EX) have been buil
Kardinal@reddit
If you have access to classified information, then I am delighted that you are not talking about it. And I will simply trust that you have information I don't and don't want to know, and I'm not sure there's much else for us to talk about.
Conversations like these with amateurs must be very frustrating for you. But I do take note of your point. I think there could be other factors that play into that, most of which are also probably classified, but it is relevant to the conversation.
monsieurdobo@reddit
No kill switch or nerfed by the US so 👍
mrbasil_fawlty@reddit
I have mixed thoughts. I like combat aircrafts but I don't know shit about them
Interesting_City2338@reddit
It has quickly become one of my favorite jets in recent times. After the DCS announcement of the typhoon, I’ve been really hyped
Flightsimmer20202001@reddit
it's been fifty years.....
Interesting_City2338@reddit
Lol true but in the last teaser trailer, they said they made it seem like they’re getting much closer to completion
dvcxfg@reddit
Of all the combat aircraft I have seen, it is definitely one of them
CaerusChaos@reddit
3rd Generation aircraft in a 5th-6th generation world.
aflyingsquanch@reddit
Actual 3rd Gen Fighters:
F-4 Phantom
MiG-23
Su-17
Harrier
Mirage F1
Saab Viggen
Rogntudjuuuu@reddit
You forgot the F-16.
aflyingsquanch@reddit
F-16 is a Gen 4 fighter....
Rogntudjuuuu@reddit
If so, then Gripen is a 5th Gen fighter. F-16 is contemporary with Viggen.
aflyingsquanch@reddit
There is a bit of a debate on the exact generation that the Viggen is considered with some arguing its basically a Gen 3.5 Fighter as it basically fits in best there as its more advanced than other Gen 3 fighters but a step below Gen 4 fighters.
Rogntudjuuuu@reddit
Fair enough. Saab fails to match the cadence of the other fighter manufacturers.
Gripen C/D is a 4th Gen fighter, but the E/F variant is basically a complete rebuild of the internals only keeping the external appearance of the C/D variant.
CaerusChaos@reddit
Wow, so many fragile people who can't handle a fact.
3lhm4ch@reddit
What classifies as 4th generation? I have always regarded the eurofighter, Rafael and gripen as 4th generation or even 4.5.
Massive_Purpose4010@reddit
Looks a lot like a T-38
heavendevil_@reddit
Just finished working on this thing for 10 years in the RAF as an engineer. Quite fond of it, not a bad bit of kit!
BreakfastUnited3782@reddit
It's a very good aircraft, light, agile and has had its' avionics updated recently. Would be more widely used in the world if the f-16 didn't exist.
SebVettelstappen@reddit
What games the F16 so widely used?
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
[removed]
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Danomite76@reddit
My favorite fighter of all time is the sexy spitfire with it's Merlin V12 . Now this color scheme looks a hell of alot like what the spit had... 🫡
TungstenChap@reddit
I wish they'd just call it Typhoon and not Eurofighter, what a garbage name
huntsab2090@reddit
Way better than any american jet
KaysaStones@reddit
Watch your tone boy!
If the wrong person see’s this GB may turn into the 52nd
LewisMarty@reddit
Oi mate, your bias is showing
huntsab2090@reddit
Sorry is saying non-american things are better cant be fact and only bias? Just watch all the videos of american pilots flying the eurofighter. They know more than any of us.
LewisMarty@reddit
It could be fact if you had justified your excessively generalized statement. In the absence of an argument to support your claim, it is logical to assume it is a biased statement.
Wolfie_142@reddit
Sure the euro fighter is a great aircraft don't get me wrong it's just that Americans have built way better aircraft like the F-35 and F-22 not to mention previous fourth gen aircraft like the F-15 or f-16 and prettier ones like F-14
aitorbk@reddit
Beautiful, european, therefore safer for Europe, and starting to be obsolete. Too expensive for what it is.
As others have pointed out, it needs and aesa radar. It also needs proper EW modules/systems (I know it is being done).
It would benefit from lateral radars and definitely needs to be produced at a lower cost.
Double_Cleff@reddit
People glazing the F15 in the comment section of a EF2000 post
Single_Reaction9983@reddit
Because muricans gotta be superior in everything...
3FingerDrifter@reddit
Such a yawn fest, always turning discussions about themselves
KaysaStones@reddit
Not my fault the F15 is seated at the right hand of God himself 🤷🏽♂️
Just the facts brother
Kanyiko@reddit
Well, it's better as a combat aircraft than as a passenger airliner. Ryanair tried, from what I understand, and the passengers weren't happy with their luggage falling off the wings.
Ferrilata_@reddit
That Typhoon in the image you posted just there is perhaps the modt beautiful jet I've ever seen
762x39sp@reddit
Fast, small, good radar that's about to be even better with AESA upgrades. An amazing and capable aircraft all around. But at the end of the day, the airframe is just a bus for the real contenders, missiles.
Chubby_Yorkshireman@reddit
I've got a banging headache because of these today, love to see them fly though.
Flimsy_Fisherman359@reddit
Aren’t those D-Day stripes?
wilsonianuk@reddit
Yeah they designed its scheme for last year's d-day 80th events. It's nicknamed moggy
Several-Eagle4141@reddit
Canards
LewisMarty@reddit
'Did'? Has it since been replaced?
Several-Eagle4141@reddit
It first flew 31 years ago.
I remind others that the F22 had a video game on the Sega Genesis
LewisMarty@reddit
Oh I agree! The Eurofighter has felt old for a very long time Just wasn’t sure if it had been replaced within the RAF for instance
Wolfie_142@reddit
It's a good aircraft but there are better options if you're an outside contrary like the F-16
aflyingsquanch@reddit
Depends on the role/need. The F-16 is the more versatile plane but the EuroFighter is a better air superiority option.
Similar-Good261@reddit
Extremely capable aircraft and with its new radars it‘s become even better.
Preussensgeneralstab@reddit
I hate how every modern plane has these utterly boring grey paint schemes.
Bring back the old WW2 camo. I want my Eurofighters with both RAF, Regia Aeronautica and Luftwaffe Camouflages. Death to the horrid grey.
mlawson1217@reddit
Much prefer to have it as a GA aircraft.
MoccaLG@reddit
pavehawkfavehawk@reddit
No clue, but it looks so good in that paint job
1Aspiring_Pilot@reddit
That livery though 😍
Broad-Log-125@reddit
Excellent 4th gen platform
Brainchild110@reddit
My thoughts are "Eurofighter goes BRRRRRRRT - SU-whatever goes bye bye".
...except firing a Meteor from a bjillion miles away doesn't make a brrrt noise 😞
daygloviking@reddit
The sphincter of the person it’s aimed at does though
Notonfoodstamps@reddit
F-22 aside. It’s the best fighter on the planet.
/thread.
kRe4ture@reddit
One of the best 4th Gen fighters imo. Maneuverable as fuck, an insane thrust-to-weight ratio, absolutely deadly with the CAESAR-radar combined with the best air-to-air missile currently in existence, the METEOR.
Pretty interesting countermeasure set, with the trailing radar emitter.
No slouch in air-to-ground either.
And yes I am aware the most Eurofighters don’t have the AESA radar yet.
Also looks just absolutely sexy.
PatimationStudios-2@reddit
Shes so pretty in retro cosplay
avi8tor@reddit
Really nice looking aircraft. Hope they make Gen 5 version someday.
Nonions@reddit
That would be the GCAP, probably called the Tempest in RAF service.
11sbrewster@reddit
6th
Nonions@reddit
Yep, I forgot for a second!
A1_Killer@reddit
That’s a 6th gen no?
steptoeshorse@reddit
As much as I love the Typhoon, I went to an airshow a couple of years ago (RIAT) and it was the gripen that did it for me. Seemed very similar but just had something about it. I know fk all about aircraft so just my tuppence worth.
fishaac@reddit
I never gave it that much thought until I recently finished "Typhoon" by Mike Sutton, I look at it in an entirely different (good) way now. As soon as I finished the book I also got it in flight sim & have been having a great time flinging it round the mach loop
VFirstBlood@reddit
if you could buy a F16 you should get a f16
Gidnik@reddit
They’re very good 4th gen but totally obsoleted by the f22 and f35.
ShakyBrainSurgeon@reddit
A bit of a tragedy, like the Panavia Tornado: When it came out, it was kinda outclassed already. It lacks stealth, still as no internal weapons bay and the radar is said to be on the weaker side, which is very bad, considering how important it is to fight over long range. Furthermore it´s insanely expensive in terms of unit cost and maintenance. There is no NAVY variant of it either.
That being said, it´s definitely doing some work for deterrence and it can be sold abroad too. Also its avionics are top tier and it´s not even relying on thrust vectoring, so there is still room for improvement (we might see that getting added eventually).
A pilot who has flown the F-22 and the Typhoon even stated, that they are both top tier in terms of performance. It´s still pretty low observable depending of weaponry used. It´s also able to use very short take-offs which is a huge plus in wartimes.
Service ceiling, acceleration, top speed, maneuverability are pretty impressive and its engines are also top notch.
The interior is still a bit early 2000´s from what I recall.
Overall a good fighter jet but too expensive, still lacks some important features (not talking about thrust vectoring btw) but geostrategically important to Europe.
My gut feeling is also, that the FCAS will be falling short too in many regards...
Common-Charity9128@reddit
Outstanding plane
~~Yeah, this is a great example of what happens if you try to do a group project, bu~~t actually, it turned out pretty nice, I'm sure that is what F-16 would have looked if there was no American "Show me the money" stances. Bunch of hardpoints that comes in handy, fitting the role of Multi-role fighter that was needed.
Might be needing successor sooner, given that the what I call "stealthcraft race" is on the heat now, leading to skyrocketing speed of developments in Aerospace technology...
phatRV@reddit
It depends on the variants. Many of them are not upgraded with the latest electronics and they are ill-suited against the latest 4.5gen and especially the 5thGen. These fighters are just platforms to host the latest generation of electronic weapons. The kinetic weapon capabilities are already locked in.
lost_opossum_@reddit
I would like one. You know for personal use. I could run errands.
prse-sami@reddit
love the cat face on this plane, with the big moustache! not so fan of the air intakes. The baby as powerful engines too!
beneaththeradar@reddit
scintillating conversation starter.
tinyhands911@reddit
i wouldnt know jim