How do libertarians deal with suicide?
Posted by TheWaterMelonPro@reddit | Libertarian | View on Reddit | 51 comments
According to libertarianism, people are free to do whatever they want with their lives, including terminating it whenever they feel like it. That is, they have a right to life. And as with any other right, people may choose to exercise or not to exercise what is enshrined in this right. For example, given freedom of speech, people can choose to say X, but can also choose to stop saying X at anytime. For that reason, they cannot choose to never say X again. Indeed, if they change their mind somewhere in the future, they must have the right to say X again. Another example would be the right to bodily autonomy. Given that right, people can consent to sexual touches and sexual relationships. At any moment, they may change their mind and revoke this consent. For that reason they cannot choose to give an infinite consent in time. Indeed, if they change their mind in the future, they must have the right to revoke this consent. The list goes on : people cannot choose to sell themselves into slavery, people cannot choose to imprison themselves for life, etc. The problem with all these examples is that someone is trying to exercise their rights in order to no longer have that right. And someone not having rights is contrary to libertarianism. You may now see the problem I have with the right to life. If someone chooses not to live anymore, they cannot choose to live again. That is, they chose not to have the right to life anymore.
This argument could justify measures taken by others to prevent someone from committing suicide, like involuntary commitment. However, I, like libertarians, am opposed to such measures. How do you solve this paradox?
Swimming-Formal-5541@reddit
it is not the issue of the state. but it is our issue as people.
DrakenSchnitzel@reddit
Live and let die, what's it to me? Who cares?
Chaos43mta3u@reddit
It's none of my business. That's how I view suicide. And if someone is suffering, there should be options to go out on your own terms that Ensure that the job is done effectively and without creating a mess for a loved one to discover
I've told my kids, the day I need 24-hour care or need someone to wipe my ass for me for the rest of my life, or don't recognize my kids (dementia/ Alzheimer's), I'm out. That is not how I want to spend the rest of my days , or be remembered. If assisted suicide is not an option, I'm thinking fentanyl/ opiate overdose
-Pyrro-@reddit
I don’t think there’s a paradox to solve. The premise of your argument seems like a stretch or maybe mental gymnastics? I would think that’d likely be an evangelical trying to make specific morality line up with being libertarian possibly.
I absolutely support suicide as well as assisted suicide; after watching someone experience extensive suffering i can’t really think of a justification for it being illegal at all
chmendez@reddit
Rights have to be interpreted as enabling you or a delegate to avoid taking something/undermine what you have/a capacity you exercise.
Right to life imposes a negative obligation on others not on "you"
Now, if the one terminating your own life is a different "you" becomes a philosophical discussion (dualism(separation of mind and body) vs monism)
We tend to talk in mainstream culture that we "have a body". But there are other schools of thought that talk that "we are body"(body not distinct/separated from mind).
So, it is up for discussion depending on how you see mind vs body, I guess.
But simplying things, I don't think right to life prevent yourself to taking your own life, as a matter of allowing coertion from others to prevent it.
On the other hand, as a voluntary-consent between adults matter, I would definitely support that community, friends, family, neighbors should try to persuade someone not to suicide.
ravage214@reddit
Somebody wants to blow their brains out fine, just don't hurt anyone else in the process.
indifferentmeh@reddit
/thread
mcnello@reddit
Disagree. We should strictly ban suicide. Any successful attempts should be proxescuted to the full extent of the law.
We must jail the corpse.
/s
Life_Commercial5324@reddit
Ur kidding but in my country people who do it are fined and those who fail to do it are put in jail.
ravage214@reddit
The person that committed suicide should clearly be sentenced to death/s
KoalaGrunt0311@reddit
I think you mean the penalty for attempting suicide should be death.
willthesane@reddit
this is meant as humor, they mean successful suicide.
ravage214@reddit
No, no penalty, unless someone else was harmed.
mcnello@reddit
mcnello@reddit
libertarianinus@reddit
I agree. It's the mental illness that I get upset about, a final solution for a temporary situation.
ravage214@reddit
No doubt, a terribleness that I have lost loved ones to, that I do not condone.
But that doesn't mean it should be illegal.
The state has no business in what you do between you and yourself.
libertarianinus@reddit
It's a decision that messes up family's.....i respect Japanese culture that would rather do this than to be a burden on a family. Those with terminal cancer, especially if painful is hard to watch. To have the family there might be peaceful if done with a drug cocktail administered by a doctor.
mcnello@reddit
Ayy. For real though, as someone who's dad deleted himself this isn't always true.
Bipolar disorder is not temporary and really doesn't have a cure. It's just a mental disorder that gets worse and worse as you age.
Ok-Nobody-9505@reddit
My opinion differs. Even if I am libertarian. I think suicide is something caused by mental illness. And everybody has the right to live. Preventing suicide is paramount. I believe in rights. Also be aware to make the difference rights and protections from pseudo rights, like forcing people to go to school or join a union because it is their "right". Or the pro life crowd who doesn't care if the mother dies. Because it is the "right" of the fetus to live.
Weary_Anybody3643@reddit
If you want to check out early it's your right as long as you don't hurt others I see no issue in it
Anen-o-me@reddit
That's poor reasoning. If you own something that includes the right to destroy it. Dead people don't have rights so there's no issue there.
Gigaorc420@reddit
yeah like this isnt an airport you dont have to announce your departure just dont hurt anyone else or make a huge mess for someone to clean up. My tax dollars shouldnt be used to force someone to stay here against their will.
robinson217@reddit
As a Marine who has lost too many brothers to suicide, I'm in the "Do whatever it takes to prevent it" camp. It's not a libertarian thing to me. It's about human suffering and what can we do to alleviate it. The toll on the survivors is the worst. I lost a close buddy just a few months ago, and this one hit me hard. Grief tinted with guilt is the worst.
KoalaGrunt0311@reddit
I actually think that we should have a path for assisted suicide that includes the donation of organs.
Iminicus@reddit
I should be able to sell my organs.
Dudebrochill69420@reddit
I agree - ie, lets just say you're electing to end your life because of some sort of terminal condition, but your organs are still in great shape, and your family is in a rough financial situation which would only worsen after your passing.
Why shouldn't you be able to sell your organs upon death to leave you family with a few hundred thousand dollars!?
Iminicus@reddit
I’ve had people tell me that the state owns my body after I die, therefore, I should be an organ donor and if I refuse the state should have a right to harvest my organs anyway.
I’ll sell you my organs but you sure ain’t getting them for free. I will add that stem cell research could allow us to grow replacement organs that are genetically identical to the one being replaced. This would reduce the need for organ donors and improve access to replacement organs.
Dudebrochill69420@reddit
I agree with everything you said, however I have chosen to be an organ donor regardless because ultimately I’d rather help someone vs having the chance of someone dying.
If there were a better method for what you’re suggesting then I’d be all for it.
Iminicus@reddit
I respect your right to donate but I am abstaining from it.
I think stem cell research is the better option and should be persuade.
Dudebrochill69420@reddit
As far as I can see, stem cell research and donations can run in parallel for a bit while they figure it all out.
The big question is who is “they”, and when will they figure it out
Iminicus@reddit
They is Pfizer and other medical companies. The issue is Governments restricting stem cell research due to religious groups arguing it’s against god and other ethical challenges.
Chrisc46@reddit
I may have a slightly different take than most others, but it involves the rights of others.
Individuals have the power to choose which of their rights they defend. For example, I can allow others free passage through my property, or I can deny them entry.
We also have the power to defend the rights of others that we can reasonably assume would agree to such aid. For example, if a person is being harassed on the street, it's reasonable to assume that the victim would gladly enlist help in their defense.
When it comes to suicide, it's reasonable to assume that most people are seeking suicide, not because they want to die, but because they cannot otherwise deal with other issues in their lives. Our natural desire to survive is incredibly strong. As such, suicidal people aren't in the right frame of mind to truly make such a permanent decision.
Roughly 70% of survivors never attempt suicide again. Most are relieved that they survived. Due to this, it's reasonable to assume that stopping suicide is the right thing to do when an individual is able to do so.
There are exceptions to all of this. Sometimes, suicide is a reasonable option for those with painful terminal illnesses. As such, I'm not convinced that the government should have much to do with it unless they are the arbitrator of conflicts aside from the suicide itself.
hourlyslugger@reddit
As someone who helped save another from this “choice” repeatedly and then nearly did it himself I wholeheartedly agree with your statement that most who actually attempt or want to are using a permanent “solution” to a very temporary problem. Which in many cases is treatable with medical intervention and mental health care.
God stopped me by literally screaming into my ears “Don’t” and then allowed me to pick up my phone when a very worried friend called me. I lied to her at first but because she gave a shit about me she kept pushing and got me help in the moment. I send her a thank you message every year or 2 since then on my birthday.
It’s been almost 15 years now. And I’ve gotten a hell of a lot better mentally in that time. Unfortunately that person who I helped save repeatedly eventually succeeded 11 years ago now this spring.
Chrisc46@reddit
I'm glad that you came out of it alive. Life, even if hard, is worth living.
I'm sorry to hear about the one who eventually succeeded. I lost a close friend 10 years ago. He may have escaped his pain, but those of us who knew him will never escape ours.
In any case, I hope that most libertarians realize that the fact that someone has a right to do something doesn't mean that we shouldn't do what we can to prevent them from doing it.
hourlyslugger@reddit
One of the analogies I use when I’m talking about what nearly happened to me is that your pain from mental illness, PTSD, severe depression, etc is a grenade. When you do that, you’re indiscriminately pulling the pin and exploding it around your lifeless body and at everyone who has ever given a shit about you when they find out. The shrapnel from that embeds into them for the rest of their natural lives most of the time.
Slightly longer backstory:
The shit of it was, she’s the only woman I’ve even come close to proposing to.
She had SEVERE mental health problems due to an upbringing I wouldn’t wish upon a dog, let alone another human being. She told me on our first date which was a blind one 19 years ago last November. And I didn’t run away, blame her, doubt her or treat her like a diseased leper as she expected.
I also had (at the time undiagnosed and untreated) mental health problems…thanks Mom and Dad for your shitty genetics! We wound up clinging to each other and a lot of our relationship was me helping take care of her. But that’s not the basis for a loving romantic relationship, it’s a trauma bond.
When we broke up for the last time 15 years ago this August it sent my depression and (then undiagnosed) anxiety into a tailspin that almost killed me. Didn’t help that we’d discussed starting a family about a month before that.
She eventually like the song lyrics go “Put that bottle to her head and pulled the trigger//Life is short but this time it was bigger//Than the strength she had to get up off her knees”
wormfood86@reddit
In 99% of cases it's a tragic and dumb decision and I'd recommend against.
But, I can't stop or force someone.
And the state has no business in it whatsoever.
AllLeftiesHere@reddit
Not only do I support an adult to make this decision for themselves, but I support more service to help people do this with dignity and in a way their family members don't have to be burdened with finding them and then dealing with the aftermath.
SpareSimian@reddit
A deeper issue is being allowed to advocate it. That's illegal in many places and many social networks will censor attempts. Everyone here can advocate against it, but disagreeing with them will get you censored. Even disagreeing with the censorship is risky.
SpareSimian@reddit
You don't really own something if you're not allowed to destroy it. If you don't own your own body, who does? Why should you have a claim over someone else's life?
rmoduloq@reddit
I believe the right to suicide is going to be one of the most important libertarian issues of the 21st century. I don't want it for myself, I'm generally quite happy to be alive. But I do know people who have tried everything for decades, are completely worn down from life, and wish all the time that it were an option. Just having the option and not taking it would be a huge comfort for them -- they know if things go extremely wrong there's an escape hatch, and this would calm some of their anxiety.
As libertarians how can we say that people have a right to work, have a right to speak, have a right to worship, have a right to think, but are forced to BE? Isn't that right so much more fundamental than all the others?
To address your examples directly ... sexual touch / relationships, slavery, self-imprisonment all deal with people being able to treat you a certain way forever even if you don't want them to. That is if you tell them to stop the government will say "nuh-uh you signed this X years ago, they don't have to stop". Suicide is saying you don't want nature to treat you a certain way (by making you exist). There's no coercion nor exploitation involved. I think we can agree that if you don't like the way your own body started out then you're allowed to change it.
Gsomethepatient@reddit
That's the need part, we don't, that's not to say we encourage it, but if some one wants to end their life who are we to stop them
ENVYisEVIL@reddit
My body my choice
mcnello@reddit
Your body belongs to the state. The draft says so.
/s
But also kind of now /s unfortunately 🙃
Leading_Air_3498@reddit
It's the highest point of irony to use violence on someone to stop them from using violence against themselves.
Remember that if your goal is to stop someone from doing something, the end result will always be killing them which will be the final byproduct of protecting yourself if they defend themselves with violence against the violence you're projecting onto them.
mcnello@reddit
We should strictly outlaw suicide. If anyone commits suicide we must jail the body.
Visible_Noise1850@reddit
If someone wants to go, they should be able to go.
Especially in the case of people who have little to zero QOL.
nayls142@reddit
People make permanent irreversible decisions all the time, that's part of life. The important part is that they are making an informed decision free of coercion.
Kedulus@reddit
People should be allowed to do whatever they want with their own bodies.
ConfusedScr3aming@reddit
Unfortunately the right to suicide is a necessary evil. If we have the right to stop them from making a decision that only hurts them what else do we have the power to force upon people?
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