FAA so out of touch people think it’s an April Fool’s joke

just FYI my heart attack at 40 was from the nicotine making my arteries brittle, but I'm SURE those pouches have safe highly addictive nicotine in them :-)

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Nu11us@reddit (OP)

Oh my. Yeah, wondering about this very thing today actually. Did you smoke for a long time?

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i started at 16 and smoked regularly for 15 years, then went a decade quitting for 1-3 months at a time but ALWAYS coming back. I was quitting for so long it was a joke with my friends, oh you quit again lol here have a smoke...

Insidious. Nicotine Addiction is Pure Evil.

I was training for adventure races at the time, running uphill at 11k ft with hiking boots and a 25 lb pack on. Also lifting and climbing 5 days a week.

I was a goon. I skied for 6 hours (2.5 ft powder day !!!) from arterial tear in the parking lot to finally passing out for 3 minutes when I finally sat still. I knew by noon it was my heart.

Do you know how frickin hard I'm going to have to work to die on a ski lift at an empty resort on a huge pow day again ???

They HAMMERED me on it in teh ICU. "Hi Mr Ihadaheartattackat40becauseismokecigs !!! How are you today ??" EVERYONE. For three days Straight.

I've lit ONE parliment light since then, which I immediately put out in disgust.

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gromm93@reddit

Pff. That's nothing! I was admitted to the ER with Afib when I was 35 because I have the wrong parents!😏

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crewdawg368@reddit

19 for me.

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gromm93@reddit

Oof. Goddamn!

Have any close relatives die at a young age as well?

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crewdawg368@reddit

No. But I did uncover a family history that no one realized.

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Nu11us@reddit (OP)

Wow. Yeah man. It's like a brain disease that you can't shake. I just notice that the vasoconstriction seems to have an effect on aerobic exercise. As it wears off, sustained intensity feels easier. There's a study that refutes this but I'm not sure I believe it.

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KITTYONFYRE@reddit

There's a study that refutes this but I'm not sure I believe it.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3001541/

I really hope you're not talking about this one lol, it's not meant to be taken at face value but is a meta look at how you can easily create reviews that come to the wrong conclusion

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Nu11us@reddit (OP)

It was something about RPE. They gave cyclists nicotine and then measured their performance.

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KITTYONFYRE@reddit

i'd be very interested if you could find it!

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tommy_b_777@reddit

i have half a song written called 'nicotine logic' ;-) Insidious.

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Beanbag_Ninja@reddit

There's a kurzgesagt video that opened my eyes to how difficult nicotine is to quit for regular smokers.

https://youtu.be/_rBPwu2uS-w?si=tkpAQ-NEMjetjxez

I'm thankful I decided early in life to learn from others' consequences and not my own on this one.

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KITTYONFYRE@reddit

yeah, cigs are really bad.

pouches aren't good either, and I do neither... but if every single smoker swapped to pouches, lung cancer and emphysema basically wouldn't exist. yes, pouches are still bad, but they're about 10% as bad as cigs. 10% of hitler is still hitler, sure sure, but I think spreading scare stories of pouches is more harmful than helpful. the goal is zero cigarettes. it'd be better for people to be on pouches forever than to be flip flopping back and forth between quitting and not, because nicotine is absurdly addictive and absurdly difficult to quit. cold turkey is damn near impossible: make it easy on yourself

i wish my mom would stop smoking and start doing pouches :l

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tommy_b_777@reddit

they hammered me that it was the nicotine that caused the micro layer of plaque between my arterial walls, which is what tore due to brittleness caused also by the nicotine.

feels just like a box cut, only inside your breastbone. very unlike anything else...

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KITTYONFYRE@reddit

interestingly enough they may have been wrong (or newer information has come out):

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5364244/

Although nicotine in tobacco products is associated with increased cardiovascular risk, hyperlipidemia, and increased insulin resistance, there is insufficient evidence to demonstrate that nicotine found in nicotine gum has the same health effects.

absence of evidence doesn't mean evidence of absence, and the paper goes into its own limitations... but spreading this narrative "well I got fucked by pouches anyway!" is really harmful imo because it's providing another barrier to people quitting cigarettes. "why quit cigs if I'll get a torn artery anyway" etc.

quit smoking immediately. do an alternative form of nicotine immediately. it is dramatically safer, regardless of if it's not perfect. it's really easy to say "i'll quit tomorrow, i'll do something about this tomorrow". change now. if you're gonna quit, this is step 1

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tommy_b_777@reddit

Yeah I don't doubt there's more going on for sure...but just think about where we are putting that concentrated vascular constrictor too - I suspect we see lots of mouth issues down the road, but I get paid to be paranoid :-)

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blowgrass-smokeass@reddit

Yeah pouches are a god send for people who just can’t give up the nic. A few pouches a day is obviously unhealthy, but considering the alternatives, it’s probably one of the healthiest ways to consume it.

I only do 2mg pouches though. Like 3 or 4 day tops. I see people using 15mg pouches and going through a whole can a day…. THAT is what will cause early heart attacks.

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KITTYONFYRE@reddit

yeah, same issue as vaping - it's really easy to plow through a lot more nicotine when you don't need to take 5 minutes out of your day to go outside and do it.

doing some very quick and dirty reading, looks like an average cigarette you absorb 1-2mg of nicotine (~10% of the nicotine in the cig). pouches you absorb ~50% after an hour, but the vast majority of that is already gone in the first ten minutes. 15mg and doing 15 a day (idk how many pouches are in a can but that's for zyns) is 225mg, ~112mg absorbed... that's a fucking shitload of nicotine lol. five pack a day smoker, good god.

just way too easy to go too hard! stick with the weak pouches fellas, the strong pouches will feel the same way after two weeks anyway...

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blowgrass-smokeass@reddit

I was actually excited when I saw a brand with 2mg instead of the usual 3mg I get. I definitely dont want to go any higher. I might see if they offer like 1mg pouches somewhere too. Ideally I’ll quit entirely, but as anyone knows, it’s a long and very tough process.

I actually quit for a full year two years ago, but life has been so stressful lately I couldn’t stop the cravings 😵‍💫I know I can do it again though, I just have to be mentally ready. But ideally if I keep lowering the dose over time, I won’t be physically dependent on it so much.

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KITTYONFYRE@reddit

looks like nicorette has 1mg gum but as an effective non-user (I've tried a pouch once or twice, smoked maybe ten cigarettes, and chewed gum once) I'm not sure if gum is somehow different or a different experience, etc. maybe worth trying

and for fun, looks like gum is ~63% absorbed. makes sense it's a little higher as you're constantly mixing it around by chewing it.

good luck man!

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blowgrass-smokeass@reddit

I’ve tried the gum before, it’s not my favorite honestly. You still have to park it in your gums like a pouch, you just chew it every so often to activate / release the nicotine. Then I end up with the niccups.

I think the next step is probably patches, that way I can still get the nicotine without something physically making it into a habit, like smoking or putting a pouch in. All I know is I’m proud of how much I’ve cut back, and I am excited to quit even though I’m not quite ready for it.

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Patient-Ad-6560@reddit

I don’t alcohol is worse and highly addictive

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tommy_b_777@reddit

but alcohol makes me sexy ! :-)

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Fantastic_Joke4645@reddit

Keep telling your story.

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blowgrass-smokeass@reddit

A single cig contains about 10-12mg of nicotine. If you’re using low dose pouches, like 2-3mg, you could use five or more pouches a day and only consume as much nicotine as a single cigarette.

One full can of Zyn 3mg is 45mg total nic, that’s just 3-4 cigarettes.

I don’t think it’s necessarily true that pouch users consume more nicotine. If you smoke half a pack a day, you could use a full can of low dose zyns and still consume less nicotine. It’s the people using the 15mg pouches and going through a full can a day or more that are the problem.

I’m sure there is some downside to the direct delivery of nicotine into the bloodstream with pouches, but it’s still not as bad as inhaling tar and smoke to get that nic.

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KITTYONFYRE@reddit

that's not how it works though. yes, the cigarette itself contains 10-12mg, but you're only absorbing ~1-2mg from that cigarette - combustion is a pretty wasteful process. pouches, snus, dip, etc are all in the neighborhood of 50% absorption. my comments elsewhere in the thread are better cited

pouches are still a fantastic alternative that 100% of smokers should immediately swap to... but you can pretty easily end up consuming more nicotine with pouches than with cigs. be careful!

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RichardInaTreeFort@reddit

Not op but I’m 40. I smoked for 5 years and have been using pouches for about 7 years now. Just had bloodwork done yesterday and my heart health is tip top. I even asked the doc about nicotine pouches and he said it can exacerbate problems but was unlikely to cause problems.

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Nu11us@reddit (OP)

I'm just in denial about another health issue and am blaming nicotine instead.

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RichardInaTreeFort@reddit

I get it… it’s waaaaay better to just quit using nicotine, but nicotine by itself and not in smoke form in moderate use shouldn’t cause any kind of major issues. Biggest thing I notice with the pouches is some minor gum recession and sometimes tenderness on the gum if I use a lot in a day.

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tommy_b_777@reddit

Pouch users are actually consuming a lot more nic than smokers.

separate post for this one, yo

OH DEAR GOD NO.

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Drew1231@reddit

Nicotine pouches are actually not that bad.

Nicotine itself is incredibly addictive, but only produces marginal problems with vascular health.

Smoking destroys your lungs and vascular system. Vaping destroys your lungs, and dipping gives you terrible cancers. The pouches arent nearly as bad as

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CantDoThatOnTelevzn@reddit

I smoked in my 20s and 30s, but not heavily (5-6) per day, sometimes more on weekends when drinking. Totally quit at 38 and replaced it with a Vuse/Juul vape. I used the vaporizer night and day. Way more than smoking.

Massive widowmaker heart attack at 44, 4 stents in my dumbass heart.

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tommy_b_777@reddit

Dyam....glad you are still on this side of the ground ! :-)

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californiasamurai@reddit

"there's this one captain..."

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b7d@reddit

I read somewhere recently that the FAA wants 48 hours from last use of nicotine to takeoff. Any validity to this?

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zero_xmas_valentine@reddit

Where did you read that? I would bet a large amount of money that's not true.

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b7d@reddit

https://www.ncesc.com/can-you-be-a-pilot-if-you-use-nicotine/

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twowheeledwonder@reddit

Interesting how it cites a 48hr reg then says there's no reg. Zero biography, no sources cited. By far the dumbest shit I've seen in a long time. If the FAA banned nicotine the entite US Military would be immediately downed. By all means, dont pick up a bad habit but goddamn do your own research.

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b7d@reddit

Yeah best I could find was FAR 67.107 (or 67.207 or 67.307) which states:

Mental standards for a third-class airman medical certificate are… a) No established medical history or clinical diagnosis of any of the following… 4) Substance dependence, except where there is established clinical evidence, satisfactory to the Federal Air Surgeon, of recovery, including sustained total abstinence from the substance(s) for not less than the preceding 2 years. As used in this section… ii) “Substance dependence” means a condition in which a person is dependent on a substance, other than tobacco or ordinary xanthine-containing (e.g., caffeine) beverages…

Now because vape/zyn don’t use tobacco, but rather nicotine derived concentrates and powders, I could see them arguing a legal grey area in court if they did choose to exercise a ban.

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zero_xmas_valentine@reddit

What the fresh AI-generated hell is that website?

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tipsails@reddit

How can you land without the landing snus tho?

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MrFrequentFlyer@reddit

Between that and caffeine the world would stop.

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No-Program-5539@reddit

The battles you’d hear between ATC and cranky pilots on frequency would be epic

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Hyperious3@reddit

Nationwide pilot strike instantly

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Snoo30232@reddit

When did we change EFB to PED ?

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v1ohno@reddit

My company just updated the flight ops manual addressing this and made the rules much stricter.

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legitSTINKYPINKY@reddit

Like how

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v1ohno@reddit

It basically went from having no language on connecting to in flight WiFi or use out of sterile to now having very specific language prohibiting use at any time while on station and connecting to aircraft WiFi.

Definitely part of the FAA cracking down on PED use across the industry.

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DatBeigeBoy@reddit

Hey maybe if they do that they should give use some better fucking options for inflight live weather.

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tipsails@reddit

Jepp not good enough? Do you guys use WSI?

Our iPads have a hidden network that allows certain apps to work.

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v1ohno@reddit

We don’t even get cell service on the ground to see weather. Includes the jepp app.

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tipsails@reddit

Oof. That sucks.

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v1ohno@reddit

lol we must fly for the same carrier

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b7d@reddit

My company did this but we all (smaller part 135 operator) changed our personal device names to "Company Phone".

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FujitsuPolycom@reddit

Top management "yep, looks legit to me!"

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tipsails@reddit

That’s pretty normal. Wild to think it would be ok to use the wifi. My airline has had a very clear ban on that for years. Mind you we’re still allowed to take photos in non critical phases of flight (Canada).

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Flying_with_Kai@reddit

Give us a hint want company. Just so we know who to avoid.

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prex10@reddit

You're not going to avoid this. This is pretty much becoming standard practice industry wide.

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Flying_with_Kai@reddit

That’s terrible. And here I am flying a p91 jet, on starlink, in the flight levels watching a movie. I don’t understand, it works in other countries. Oh well..

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prex10@reddit

What countries are allowing airline pilots to watch movies will on duty in the flight deck?

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Several_Leader_7140@reddit

I thought my country was pretty lax but whichever country allowing movies is just wild

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tipsails@reddit

The amount of times I see my FO trying to get one last text out while we’re taxing is crazy. And I’m not even that old (late 30s) I would have been YELLED at when I was an FO by the old crusty guys.

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CommuterType@reddit

Sounds like it's time to do some yelling

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tipsails@reddit

I know but I hate yelling. I usually have a conversation after the fact once in cruise. Like "hey so I saw what you were doing" but maybe those conversations aren't working and it's time to be an asshole.

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ShadowDrifted@reddit

Keep risking your ticket. It's time to be direct and address it when it happens.

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FujitsuPolycom@reddit

This would be part of proper CRM.

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a_provo_yakker@reddit

Idk man, if a transportation authority wants to crack down on PED use, maybe start with all the van drivers on the phone. The hotel shuttle/third party van/expensed uber is usually the biggest threat to crew safety during the hours of Sign-In to Release.

But whatever. My airline will keep telling the story of a FO who was on their phone with a Fed in the JS. Or was it that they were texting while taxiing? Or answered a phone call? Maybe they said “your aircraft” during the takeoff roll? Sometimes they say it was IOE. Other times, they were taxiing and the captain said to stop using their phone multiple times, then called the chief to remove the FO. Sometimes they say they were taxing and the CA asked to return to the gate. For sure though, everybody clapped.

(obviously don’t be an idiot and risk your career because of a phone, but also don’t be the AA 777 that plowed through an active runway).

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Urrolnis@reddit

It's like the stories of crewmembers having emotional support stuffed animals. Always a story they heard from a check airman, but when you ask a check airman, they have no idea what you're talking about.

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Nu11us@reddit (OP)

Yes. Why is it always the check pilots who seem to have these stories? And why are they always slightly different? And why haven't I ever met one of these people who got fired? Aviation is a small world.

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Urrolnis@reddit

I've never heard it from check pilots, always from somebody who claimed a check pilot said it (IE the guy telling me the story made it up).

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BringPopcorn@reddit

I've heard the "Meow on Guard" and at least one cell phone story directly from the Line Check Pilots involved.

It's not usually a story they tell, you've got to gain trust and ask about crazy stuff.

You hear it second hand because the people the LCA's tell aren't as discrete as the LCA's themselves.

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OrganicParamedic6606@reddit

What’s really crazy is that those same first-hand check pilots work at multiple different airlines

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BringPopcorn@reddit

Could it be that more than one pilot has used their cell phone at inappropriate times and more than one idiot has meowed on guard with the wrong witness?

Perhaps even at different airlines?

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OrganicParamedic6606@reddit

Yeah, it’s possible that the exact same “meowing on guard during OE” and “answering a phone call with a fed in the jumpseat”’story happened at multiple airlines.

But it’s more likely that pilots are reprehensible chismosas

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zero_xmas_valentine@reddit

I know I'm just a random guy on the internet, but I did personally witness a guy getting fired from my new hire 121 class for (what started out as) being on his phone constantly in the sim. This might not have been as much of an issue, except he was also a penguin who couldn't keep the plane upright in a V1 cut to save his life even after a ton of repeated lessons. The company later found out he had concealed at least one accident/incident from a previous employer, and between those things he was sent home.

He's now a 135 Navajo chief pilot somewhere. I do not want to be anywhere near him if he's operating an airplane.

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a_provo_yakker@reddit

I’m sure something did happen, and I know phone usage during critical phases is a legitimate concern at every airline. It’s said that the JFK runway incursion was in part a busy/distracted crew, and partly the second FO in the JS was on their phone instead of being a third set of ears & eyes. That’s a real incident that made the news, and probably could have been easily avoided.

I’m still sus on the FO on their phone while taking off. A little while back I started hearing the FO was a woman. Like that even matters 🙄 But you know it’s like a dog whistle for so many of my peers.

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FujitsuPolycom@reddit

Dog whistle? It's more like the Pavlov experiments. These fellas start salivating at the prospect of pinning an accident on a woman or minority. dEi brOooo

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livebeta@reddit

A little while back I started hearing the FO was a woman

Then it'll be a woman of a certain skintone

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shaf7@reddit

So we're blaming someone in the jump seat now for this? Maybe we need four sets of eyes in the flight deck now. 🙄

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Urrolnis@reddit

Blame? Or contributing factor?

You're a required crewmember anytime you're sitting in the jumpseat, especially when you're not just commuting and part of an augmented crew going across an ocean.

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shaf7@reddit

It's such a tired argument hearing that you're a required crew member any time you're in the jump seat. Yes, from a legal standpoint that's why you're authorized to be up there, but from a safety standpoint its negligible. If it truly was so important to have three sets of eyes monitoring at all times then the FAA would mandate that we always have three crew members in the jump seat. The aircraft is rated for two pilot operations and this same crew member in question was literally scheduled to be asleep in the back soon. Their inattention is the absolute least contributing factor in this incident... If we can't safely have 2 pilots operate this aircraft on the ground then we need to have 3 pilots in the flight deck at all times.

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Urrolnis@reddit

Homie they were in a 777 flying across the Atlantic in an actual augmented crew situation. That jumpseater was literally a member of the crew

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shaf7@reddit

I understand what you're driving at, but the only reason that crew member exists is to augment the flight deck later during cruise. They aren't sitting up there as a necessity for taxiing, takeoff and landing--otherwise every 777 would require 3 pilot operations at all times.

I'd even argue that it's more dangerous for the 3rd pilot to be on a PED during their rest period instead of sleeping, then during the one time of the flight when they aren't actually required at all.

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Urrolnis@reddit

Do you fly with a lot of reserve FOs?

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a_provo_yakker@reddit

They weren’t just bumming a ride. It was a widebody augmented crew of 3.

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121guy@reddit

There was a pilot at my old airline that answered the phone while the fo was landing. The company tried to fire him but the union protected his job. He works for a legacy now.

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Nu11us@reddit (OP)

It's so crazy how there are people like that, but then also people who lost their careers for like not wearing their hat or something.

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121guy@reddit

All I can say is there a lot more people that should have been fired and weren’t then you would think.

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121guy@reddit

I was a checkairman. Buddy of mine had a student that carried a security blanket. He held it during flight.

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livebeta@reddit

He's been nervous plenty of times

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ShadowDrifted@reddit

Tell me you work for AA without telling me you work for aa...

These Jack wagons keep telling the fear-mongering stories but don't actually have facts or consistency to back it up. No one actually did it. Your union has records of everyone that was terminated and why. APA HAS NO RECORD OF ANYONE TERMINATED FOR PHONE USE

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zero_xmas_valentine@reddit

DL has the same stories. I'm sure it's just a universal thing at this point.

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prex10@reddit

At least some of those variations are real. I've seen at least one of the training dept emails on it.

Sometimes it's baffling to believe the amount of stories out there. Then sometimes I take a look around and think, yeah it's entirely possible. I'm sure a lot of people would find it hard to believe the drunken Harrisburg Pinnacle story. Yet it's real.

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a_provo_yakker@reddit

To your final point, a little bit of the ol “your parents said it’s illegal to drive around at night with the car’s dome light on” mixed with “these things are happening, so let’s scare the new hires straight”. The latter definitely seems to work, especially with the older crowd anyway who aren’t quite as reliant on their electrics (ha jk they’re on them just as much). But it was enough to get people bickering whether your Apple Watch was a PED, or if your battery-driven dumb watch was a PED, blah blah blah.

Yeah obviously things happen, but to watch the same exact story evolve, almost in real time, is astounding. The fish grows every few months, it seems.

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EdBasqueMaster@reddit

God I’ve really had it with those stories.

That said, there’s this guy I flew with on a Hawker. Worst pilot I’ve ever flown with. 65+ at best, I don’t know his age for sure but he was genuinely the worst pilot I’ve ever met in my life. Liked to show me “flat turns” where he only used the rudder. Insane person. I’ve mentioned him before on here.

ANYWAY, he literally took a phone call while hand flying on final and he was doing that thing where you prop the phone against your ear with your shoulder. It was the wrong number.

Craziest shit I’ve ever seen.

Now I expect it from the guy but the stories that get passed around every single airline as being true are so over the top. So many times it seems like a hit job pointed at a specific age group as well even though the boomer crowd violates FAR more SOPs far more egregiously. Whatever. I don’t go on the wifi and I am a good boy at work. But it is annoying the triple standard applied to some of these things.

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zero_xmas_valentine@reddit

Liked to show me “flat turns” where he only used the rudder. Insane person. I’ve mentioned him before on here.

Okay but driving a corp jet like an aircraft carrier sounds absolutely hilarious

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NuttPunch@reddit

That older age grouped you mentioned is almost exclusively an American issue. It's less so from other cultures.

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a_provo_yakker@reddit

Regarding your last paragraph, I wondered the same. Just during the course of indoc, the fish grew a little bigger with each retelling. And they still are talking about it all the time, as if it just happened yesterday. My airline is the “oldest” of the legacies. It also seems like they tend to hire a lot of old-er average aged pilots consistently. Young guys in every class, but we had 25 y/o all the way up to nearly 60 in my class. Average age was in the 40s though easily.

Therefore we are very boomer and usually for the worst. Next five years, they say, will see at least a 50% churn in average age and seniority, with the top-heavy seniority list retiring plus all the new hires we’d need simply to replace attrition.

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KehreAzerith@reddit

Wait so snapping a picture which takes 5 seconds is so dangerous... but using a company iPad/phone during critical phases of flight is all good

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NighthawkAquila@reddit

Where did taking a picture come from? They’re talking about PEDs obviously it’s April Fools. i can’t imagine they care that much if their pilots are taking PEDs. Maybe anabolic steroids because of the whole testosterone thing?

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Twarrior913@reddit

Because the company ipad is approved and has a 45 page manual that justifies a POI’s job!!!!!1!!1!

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a_provo_yakker@reddit

Yesterday the union sent out a FAQ email regarding a recent change to company procedures while parking at the gate (regarding auto-parking systems, rampers & wands, etc). One of them said to consider using the company iPad to take pics if you observe the ramp crew aren’t ramping properly.

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f1racer328@reddit

That’s absolutely awesome

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Sad-Hovercraft541@reddit

They're in the pockets of big iPad!

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rkba260@reddit

Whoa whoa whoa, let's not get all crazy here, you trying to use critical thinking and stuff... pffft...

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alexxd_12@reddit

Is that why there are no cockpit videos from the us? I can watch plenty of lufthansa group pilots flying on youtube for example but nothing fron the us.

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lh458@reddit

Some changes are coming there too. My favorite channel just announced that there will be no more approach/departure/full-flight videos for the foreseeable future. At least the existing videos will stay on the channel.

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Kdj2j2@reddit

Delta missing Minneapolis ruined it for everyone

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tomsawyerisme@reddit

those dudes were 100% asleep and just tried to make up an excuse.

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capsug@reddit

One of our local examiners was at Northwest when it happened and will tell the story. It’s not really remarkable at all but they were certainly 100% not asleep.

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anaqvi786@reddit

I met someone from the company who investigated the incident. Swore up and down they were awake

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Winux-11@reddit

Well, there could be some bias there if they are from the company

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anaqvi786@reddit

I still think they were asleep tbh. Only seems plausible.

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tomsawyerisme@reddit

Funny because I know some people from NW who say they 100% fell asleep

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zero_xmas_valentine@reddit

Northwest but yeah

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alexxd_12@reddit

Do you have a news story of that?

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Kdj2j2@reddit

Sorry it was NW as the merger was occurring. The pilots claimed to be learning the new bidding software.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwest_Airlines_Flight_188

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anaqvi786@reddit

Wonder how it would’ve worked without internet. If they didn’t have Wi-Fi onboard at that time

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a_provo_yakker@reddit

I know delta was trying to get wifi installed across the fleet around that time, but I don’t recall Northwest having it. At least not at that time?

I also believe delta had recently switched to using Navblue ghat year, so I have wondered if it had the ability to work offline back then. Currently, you can log into Navblue, save all the data in your browser cache, then log in offline and do your bidding. Simply save it, then sync when back in network coverage. Unsure if they had that over fifteen years ago.

But I mean, I think everyone believes they just dozed off.

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anaqvi786@reddit

I’m 99% sure they dozed off too. Only thing is I bet if they admitted it the FAA might’ve been more lenient on them given FAR 117 was becoming a thing

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jaylowgee@reddit

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwest_Airlines_Flight_188

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Similar-Good261@reddit

They don‘t deal with that stuff in flight either, they set it up before and take it down after.

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GivenToFly@reddit

I used to work on the railway as a Locomotive Engineer. PED were forbidden for ANY PURPOSE while on duty. The higher ups would actually call crew member cell phones to see if they'd answer and punish them if they did. Eventually, every single locomotive were outfitted with multiple cameras. One in your face, one in your lap, and one on the back wall. And company officers would regularly tune into these cameras to watch what you were doing. Live.

I really hope that doesn't start happening here.

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Elios000@reddit

how the FUCK did the unions let that happen

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GivenToFly@reddit

It was a hard fight that went on for years. Finally, there were enough accidents because people were on their phones that TC (Transport Canada) was able to legislate it. That's the story anyway.

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Elios000@reddit

this is why we cant have nice things...

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Never_Forget_94@reddit

That sounds like hell.

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hendrixsrv@reddit

Still waiting on mental health reforms….

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Elios000@reddit

haha

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Elios000@reddit

bring back 3 man crews. Pilot, Co-Pilot and Social Media Officer!

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velosnow@reddit

Funny thing is, I could take the time to set up a 'real' camera on a tripod, load film, meter the scene snap some pics and it wouldn't break a single reg or company policy (whilst in cruise at least).

But the geniuses believe taking a one second photo from my very dangerous PED is the devil. Mmmkay.

Yes, we could get into nuance and further distractions, but taking a few photos here and there isn't the issue they play up to be.

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Elios000@reddit

more airlines like be like Nolinor and just embrace it

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Nu11us@reddit (OP)

I was thinking of getting an old school film camera with no light meter. Completely mechanical. Not an "electronic device".

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Medeski@reddit

As someone with an old timey camera with no light meter, you get pretty decent at judging your exposures. Or just spend the $40 for a light meter.

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mustang__1@reddit

depends if its E6 or BW film...

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Secret-Support-2727@reddit

I’ll bring my Fuji gw690, it’s as big as an iPad but fully mechanical, no electronics at all. Perfectly legal.

Though I feel doing this will definitely be “breaking the intent but not the letter” of the law.

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velosnow@reddit

Yep, had my Mamiya Super 23 in mind for this too.

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Umbongo_congo@reddit

Hey Siri… Deploy reversers.

Sure ‘My Lord’ … Replaying your last message from Pilot universe

No, cancel… Siri open reverse thrust.

Sure ‘My Lord’ … Opening reverse thrusting on PH.

Nooooo … Siri call Fire and rescue.

Sure ‘My Lord’ … now playing Fire and Rescue by Rebloom Music.

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MrAflac9916@reddit

But yet I can use my phone to write down CRAFT, use ForeFlight for traffic avoidance, start the timer on approaches, etc?

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Legal-Championship64@reddit

Man I kinda feel like the faa might have bigger problems

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Urrolnis@reddit

Thankfully they're a large government organization that can tackle two things at once!

I've seen some bullshittery involving PEDs on the flight deck while the aircraft was in motion. Not that enforcement of an already hard to enforce policy will change anything, but this is a cause kinda worth fighting.

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shaf7@reddit

Ah I'm sure you probably just sit in the flight deck with your hands folded monitoring the instruments? Certainly you don't talk below 10k ft in sterile cockpit, or read a book, or day dream or do literally anything else that's equally as distracting as using a PED, right? That would sure sound pretty hypocritical to enforce one rule and ignore another that you found personally inconveniencing...

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Urrolnis@reddit

I wonder if there's any distinction between comments below 10,000 feet and reading a book in flight and using PEDs in-flight at a level that actively gets the FAAs attention

That'd be crazy

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shaf7@reddit

Sigh. Thank you for proving my point. 99% of the time using a PED is the equivalent of not coming to a complete stop at a stop sign. The very fact that you compare it to drunk driving demonstrates, once again, that the people that care the most about this are the same people that are unable to differentiate between serious violations and minor things that aren't very important. These are the same people that use the rules as a crutch with their own pet rules they enforce, and are far more dangerous than texting in cruise. The same people that refuse to go around when they're unstable at 1000ft during an instrument approach, and very unironically, the same people that care about using a PED at FL300.

Story time, I used to fly with a guy that cared about the color of my backpack because it was "unprofessional", and this same guy just happened to get paired with me in the simulator and failed our annual requal because he couldn't even make it through the originating checklist without gross oversights. These are the same people that care about all PED use.

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Urrolnis@reddit

Turns out you can care about more than one thing at once.

You one of those guys that doesn't follow procedures because you know better than the book?

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poser765@reddit

Im sorry, is “the book” infallible?

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Urrolnis@reddit

Absolutely not. But it's a pain in the ass when a captain knows "better" and directs the other guy to do it a different way and puts HIM in an uncomfortable position.

Guy doesn't wanna brief. Done this flight so many times, don't need to tell me. We did it this way at my old company, so do it this way now.

No. Fly the fucking book to the best of your ability. You get paid well enough to just do it that way and shut up about it. You don't like it? Go join the training department.

Sick of having to fly with guys pressuring FOs to do things some other way far surpassing technique and going into procedural differences. Now I have to spend more time telling you I'm not doing that.

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shaf7@reddit

I think we'll find a lot of common ground here 🤷🏼‍♂️

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Brambleshire@reddit

Yes there is bullshittery. One time I had to tell an FO to put the phone away when we were in JFK holding short of an active runway. I wish I came down on him harder.

But of course they are doing the lazy thing and banning all phones and pictures at all times in an airplane.

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Urrolnis@reddit

I had a captain text while he was actively taxiing. At a busy airport I had never been to at night. I had to yell at him for it.

Problem is, you've got captains making $350k/yr who won't comply with gentle company policy. If they won't listen to suggestions when they have that many reasons to just do it the company way, you have to go the punitive direction.

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Brambleshire@reddit

Sorry I'm not on board with "therefore we have no choice but to ban sunset pics while flying over the ocean"

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Urrolnis@reddit

One guy pisses his pants, we all wear diapers. Thems the rules. I don't like it either, but if you'd like to be the change you want to see in the world, go for it. I'm not gonna piss off the guy that signs my paychecks.

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Brambleshire@reddit

Actually I do rock the boat at my company. We have channels for that. Better than just shrugging and saying rules is rules.

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Urrolnis@reddit

Have at it man. The only people getting in trouble for PEDs outside of accidents are people who blatantly post pictures and videos all over the internet.

Nothing is going to change for the rest of us with common sense.

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Brambleshire@reddit

Like 15000 ignored ASAPs and ASRS?

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recycleaway622@reddit

Is that what’s going on? I submitted a ASRS report for a NMAC with a helicopter in October. Got the slip a couple weeks later, it’s still not searchable.

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Brambleshire@reddit

Probably. You didn't hear the news about the 15000 reports in 3 years involving TCAS RAs with helicopters at DCA?

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thatben@reddit

Packages deserve views too!

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altoniomuffin@reddit

That’s what she said

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thatben@reddit

Hardest LOL in a long, long lines of LOLs. 🫡

(Also: that’s what yer momma said.)

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OverallPreparation65@reddit

Good. The FAA is trying to combat “influencers” who make our profession look bad. If you don’t record yourself, no one is going to know you ware watching Real Housewives of Beverly Hills while you’re in cruise. Just don’t be an idiot.

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CommuterType@reddit

I do see more PED in flight but I also have noticed less sleeping

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EssexSailor86@reddit

I mean I get it from a publicity standpoint but let’s be honest… is there ANY difference between reviewing company material and using your phone during a non critical phase of flight.

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New-Reference-2171@reddit

No recording during critical time of flight isn’t out of touch.

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Party-Pay3537@reddit

Has there ever been a safety lapse as a result of phone use?

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vectorczar@reddit

Would you want your approach controller playing Candy Crush while on position?

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Party-Pay3537@reddit

Definitely not, but I was more so asking if there has ever been an incident that occurred as a result of phone/ped use.

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Throwawayyacc22@reddit

I thought someone was pinning test while PIC

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3greenandnored@reddit

With all the occurrences that have happened in the recent months, this knee jerk reaction by the FAA should come as no surprise

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Capt_World@reddit

I can’t use my performance enhancing drugs in the the cockpit any more :(

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hondaridr58@reddit

Cialis is still legal. Pop one and wash it down with a pocket liquor when the computer starts calling you a retard.

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Obvious-Hunt19@reddit

Slam

Click

Slam slam slam

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tosss@reddit

Oddly specific.

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hondaridr58@reddit

~~Whiskey Dick~~.

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snaeper@reddit

80 game suspension and you cant participate in the playoffs.

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orange_wraith@reddit

“I apologize to my family, the team and all my fans. I don’t know that the in flight snacks had anything illegal in them. I’ve been drug tested 8 times last year and never had an issue.” -Profar probably.

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tabasco44@reddit

He should sign with the Rockies as a hitting coach. That’ll get him back in the left seat in no time!

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71272710371910@reddit

I need my PED for my EFB.

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Ok_Excitement725@reddit

There is a documented (by the investigation authority) case in Australia.

https://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2012/04/texting-pilot-nearly-caused-jet-to-crash

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Saleen81@reddit

Aero Crew News will publish literally anything that’s remotely believable just to be the first. Then delete it later like nothing happened.

ACN is literal dogshit for aviation news.

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zero_xmas_valentine@reddit

Yep, but for some reason everyone fucking falls for it and still gives them engagement instead of simply ignoring them out of existence.

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legitSTINKYPINKY@reddit

I will abide just like I do with oxygen over 350.🫡

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zero_xmas_valentine@reddit

That's not even a rule anymore, is it?

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K2Nomad@reddit

I am not convinced that the general public is safer because ATPs aren’t allowed to film or take photos while cruised out at 30something thousand feet over Alaska.

What a stupid, archaic rule.

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Bunslow@reddit

we have proof positive from all the films that come out of europe and other places.

it's literally zero added risk compared to typical cruise chitchat.

but the faa loves to have sticks up its ass, lump this in with medicals i guess

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poser765@reddit

I’m far me alert reading a book on my phone than when Captain Fuckface won’t shut the hell up about DEI hires for the whole trip.

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Field_Sweeper@reddit

While I mostly agree, even the .0000000000001% that something happens while they are doing it, and the further .0000000000000000000000000001% chance it's something that the act of having been on the phone will be the reason it crashes (as in not able to resume control etc)

BUT a chance, however small, IS a chance. So. Like MANY jobs, put you phone away and work. lol.

I mean, sure, I would do the same, but I also wouldn't argue if I got yelled at for doing it.

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kimi_on_pole@reddit

Time to get a burner phone.

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Resident_Report_5854@reddit

How am I supposed to shoot a CATIII without injecting PED’a anymore 😞

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Flying_with_Kai@reddit

It's ridiculous, that's what it is. They treat airline pilots like children.

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Cool-Acanthaceae8968@reddit

Everyone uses personal electronic devices.

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Electrical-Fail-7500@reddit

But they shouldn’t

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legitSTINKYPINKY@reddit

Why

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Electrical-Fail-7500@reddit

Distraction is a massive hole in the Swiss cheese.

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legitSTINKYPINKY@reddit

At 45k transcon there’s not a lot happening

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Dave_A480@reddit

Because that's how you navigate. With an iPad

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jackpotairline@reddit

Soon our checklists are going to have verbiage about the headset bluetooths being off….

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Field_Sweeper@reddit

I would argue the ones thinking the FAA would ever make ANY joke are the ones out of touch lol.

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JAYSCOO@reddit

You’re telling me… last year on April 1st they posted this on instagram: “The FAA is reviewing recommendations provided by the Mental Health and Aviation Medical Clearances Rulemaking Committee to help break down barriers that prevent pilots and air traffic controllers from reporting mental health issues. Tap the link in bio to review the report.”

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Altruistic-Cod1330@reddit

We knew it was only a matter of time until they started cracking down on this.

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pilot3033@reddit

Yeah I'm not sure what the surprise is here. There's a ton of video on youtube, insta, tiktok, and all social media of pilots recording themselves in situations they obviously should not be. It shouldn't have to affect people just browsing reddit in cruise, but that's what happens when people abuse the intentionally vague guidelines.

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Advocateforthedevil4@reddit

I was thinking I don’t care if the pilots are enhancing their performance. That’s probably a good thing.

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Littleferrhis2@reddit

As a CFI my usage of phones outside of use is generally just music and coordination with students, sometimes just white noise as I realize it keeps me calmer and more focused in the cockpit.

I think if you’re wanting to enforce this, which I would agree that the enforcement should be nuanced, the proper answer is a technology solution. Keep the harsh rules in place, but also require apps on your phone that will put the phone in a hard do not disturb mode that are a required item to turn on once you are in the cockpit. The fact is that if there’s a problem on an airplane, as long as you aren’t doing it in sterile cockpit phases there shouldn’t be an issue.

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DearKick@reddit

I was just reading about Profars 80 game suspension for PED use and when i saw it happened to pilots too I wondered how many trips they’d be suspended.

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scrollingtraveler@reddit

Using the word joke and the acronym in the same sentence never quite works out.

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Never_Goon_Chud@reddit

MFW I just dropped $100k on flight school planning to get paid $300k/yr to play candy crush

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Go_Loud762@reddit

All the kool kids are playing BlockBlast.

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headphase@reddit

Oh well in that case you coulda saved yourself the 100k and just joined NYPD.

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flying_penguin104@reddit

just wait til the captain starts playing candy crush first, then you’re good

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Nu11us@reddit (OP)

I’ve seen this in multiple groups. In every one of them, there are April Fool’s related comments.

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TooLow_TeRrAiN_@reddit

Unfortunately it’s not

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rymn@reddit

Lol this has to be a joke...

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TooLow_TeRrAiN_@reddit

Unfortunately it’s not

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PidginEnjoyer@reddit

I have a friend who flies for GTI who mentioned this a week or so ago. So I guess not?

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rymn@reddit

My position allows me to do flight Deck training which is very interesting but I'm often on 5 to 8 hour flights and I can tell you from dozens of Long haul flights in the flight deck, it is extremely extremely boring... Once every half hour one of the pilots does a Time fuel calculation and the rest of the time there is nothing to do... Mostly

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PidginEnjoyer@reddit

It's not. I have a friend who flies for Atlas who mentioned this a week or so ago. Although he described it more as a no pics or videos on the aircraft.

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Jazzlike-Caramel-380@reddit

Everybody hating on Lance Armstrong

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Dave_A480@reddit

Can't take a photo from a plane..... Can use ForeFlight.....

Car based rules have no place in the sky.....

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I_fondled_Scully@reddit

It’s like how cops enforce people on their phones while driving meanwhile we have an entire computer in the center console right in our face

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PidginEnjoyer@reddit

I assume Miami Rick's outspoken politics came back to bite.

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AnnualWhole4457@reddit

Sending this to my boss while I'm in the deice pad getting sprayed.

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RepresentativeOfnone@reddit

What I can’t be taking Roids in the cockpit? Brooo that’s some BS for real

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tomsawyerisme@reddit

I think FAA wise PED are ok as long as you're in VFR conditions and above 10,000 ft? Am I wrong?

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Urrolnis@reddit

Certainly not in a 121 environment, no. PEDs have to be off and put away.

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tomsawyerisme@reddit

the reg says any devices determines by the 119 holder to not cause interference are allowed. Sure like every carrier has their own rules but faa wise phones are on every carriers list as a "safe" item when in airplane mode.

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Urrolnis@reddit

121 carrier Flight Operations Manuals nearly universally require them powered off and put away. I'm sure there are one or two that don't, but that's the trend. And the FOM supersedes the FARs (by modifying them to usually be more strict).

When I was a ramp agent I'd listen to GoJet crews do their before push/before start checklist as they prepared for pushback. One of the checklist items were PEDs to be off and away.

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prex10@reddit

It's a briefing item at the tulip too. I wanna say 9E also had it in a checklist.

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Urrolnis@reddit

I'm not shocked tulip briefs it. Yall love your briefings. I don't think it's ever come up beyond just a vibe check at my current operation, aside from just knowing it's not supposed to happen.

I just wanna know if I'm only allowed to read company materials on transcons.

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prex10@reddit

Yeah, there are two parts to the briefing. The captains brief and then the pilot flying brief. The PED is part of the captain briefing. It's pretty the point where you figure out if the captain is cool or not about phones.

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Urrolnis@reddit

I'm sure I've already tuned it out by the time they brief what we will and won't abort a takeoff for (it's exactly what the FOM says)

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prex10@reddit

Some captains can do their brief in 45 seconds. I recently flew with a guy who took like 8 minutes to say his part. It's so scattered

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Urrolnis@reddit

First leg briefing is honestly the biggest vibe check of a trip. 8 minute brief? Oh god. 1 minute? Cool. You have to remind them to brief? Oh god.

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tomsawyerisme@reddit

Yeah I agree almost all FOM's ban them, but breaking the FOM is a lot different than breaking a FAR (breaking a FAR is alot worse).

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Urrolnis@reddit

Uhhh, no. Breaking the FOM is exactly the same as breaking a FAR. They are for all intents and purposes the same. Most FOMs say that somewhere.

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tomsawyerisme@reddit

welp mine doesnt and I would definitely prefer to break the fom than a far and its not close.

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OrganicParamedic6606@reddit

That’s for carriage, not for use by working crew members

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tomsawyerisme@reddit

That's wrong. 121.306 is for both pax and crew as it specifies in the first line.

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Matuteg@reddit

For sure….. 👀

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Urrolnis@reddit

I mean... yeah.

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Matuteg@reddit

Yeah… I agree with you… 👀 phones bad… never saw one in the flight deck. Crazy…

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Urrolnis@reddit

I once thought about my cell phone in flight (while it was powered off and in my flight bag) and it keeps me up at night

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Matuteg@reddit

You made me chuckle haha. 😂

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Urrolnis@reddit

I only constantly reread the FOM to stay awake on redeyes the way that ~~God~~ the government intended

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prex10@reddit

Pretty much according to really any US Airlines rules. No phones or cameras, outside materials whatsoever. The only "approved" thing to look at is either the instruments or company materials. That's the blunt of it.

Reality is another conversation. But... that's the "rules".

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sharkbite217@reddit

Yes, you’re wrong.

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Hyperious3@reddit

So I have to wait till I'm at cruise before I can sneak off to the lav and inject more roids in my ass?

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Final_Winter7524@reddit

I don’t get it. Why is it an FAA matter? Do I now need a pilot’s license just to get high?

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MultiGeek42@reddit

No license required if you keep your stash below 250 lbs

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CobaltGate@reddit

"Aero Crew News"?

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airbusman5514@reddit

I saw something about this on Twitter yesterday... only reason I know it isn't an April Fools' joke

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Agreeable_Speaker_45@reddit

What’s wrong with a little trenbolone & push ups in the flight deck during cruise?

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Mike__O@reddit

This has been a long time coming.

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Red-Truck-Steam@reddit

Airbus pilots taking tren to more effectively yank on the yoke

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RunningPirate@reddit

And why are there chop marks on the iPad Todd?

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WyoPeeps@reddit

I don't know Margo!

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Urrolnis@reddit

In fairness, April 1st as April Fools is the biggest joke in history. Some companies and government agencies partake and make goofy joke posts that people freak out about (or laugh at), and then you get others that just won't surrender to not making public statements for 24 hours and make legitimate statements where people then ask if it's a joke.

Can't really blame the FAA on this one.