Medical "quality of life" in US versus Europe
Posted by unnecessary_otter@reddit | expats | View on Reddit | 162 comments
As someone who lived and worked in two countries across the pond (grew up in the US, now in Germany) I now have to decide where to settle down long term. Recently my dad's late stage cancer diagnosis brought that to the forefront to my decision-making, especially since I'm now at a higher risk.
I'm in a middle class profession (architecture) and my colleagues stateside say we're pretty well cared for in terms of employer healthcare. However I also know what an organizational shitshow the US system can be, with the plethora of plans, networks, and particularly preexisting conditions, which I fear given my family history of cancer excludes me entirely. Plus ELI5 - how does employer insurance work if cancer treatment takes someone out of the workforce, and is subsequently laid off?
On the other hand, I've appreciated the simplicity of German healthcare (cancer treatment is completely covered), but I feel it's a bit barebones, plus I've gotten dismissed a few times by doctors with my concerns, which might make getting screenings and following up on concerns more difficult.
For those with experience in both countries, especially with cancer pre-screening and treatment, which would you recommend?
kitanokikori@reddit
You die. I have an ex-coworker going through this right now and there is literally nothing he can do; he can't work, he has no insurance. He can start a GoFundMe.
someguy984@reddit
There are out of pocket max limits for insurance policies. Also Medicaid expansion is available in 41 states and DC.
kitanokikori@reddit
You're right, it's not that bad at all! I'll let him know that he has no problems at all.
someguy984@reddit
Why does you friend have no insurance? He took chances and the gamble didn't pay off? He should self-pay then.
kitanokikori@reddit
You could not be more wrong. He was fully employed and had health insurance, got cancer, couldn't work and eventually the company laid him off.
someguy984@reddit
He should have went to healthcare.gov and gotten $0 Medicaid if income was under $1,800 a month, or a heavily subsidized ACA policy. Another option is continue work coverage with COBRA continuation for 18 to 36 months (states vary).
progressiveprepper@reddit
Have you looked at COBRA payments? I needed further insurance after my employer laid me off after an accident. The payments were over $2,000 a month..that was the "subsidied" insurance...not many people can afford to use COBRA.
someguy984@reddit
COBRA has no subsidy, it is employer cost plus 2%. I only mention it because it is another option. Medicaid and ACA are MUCH better options.
kitanokikori@reddit
Please stop.
someguy984@reddit
Your made up friend doesn't even know how the US system works.
Mysteriouskid00@reddit
No Medicaid? No subsidized ACA plan?
andersonimes@reddit
Yes, after you are bankrupt. There is no help for you. It's all means tested. Until you are shaken down for every quarter in your pockets, you don't get shit if you aren't already old and even then, it's likely the case. As an example, I couldn't get my grandfather into long term hospice in Texas because he still had money in his bank account and could "afford it".
The medical system in the US is designed to ensure that you die penniless. That is its purpose.
Mysteriouskid00@reddit
No, Medicaid is income based, not asset based.
ACA subsidies have nothing to do with assets, just income.
andersonimes@reddit
Medicare would not cover his nursing home care until he was broke. I don't know what else to tell you.
someguy984@reddit
MAGI-based (aka expansion group) Medicaid has no resource test per the law: https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/42/435.603
andersonimes@reddit
This was pre-ACA so maybe the rules have changed. We drained his checking account before they would talk to us.
someguy984@reddit
This started in 2014.
andersonimes@reddit
The "please hide your grandfather's money so we can cover his hospice stay at this fine institution in Lubbock TX" event was in 2017.
someguy984@reddit
Medicaid expansion in 2014 are able bodied, 18-64 yo, childless.
Someone over age 65, disabled, or blind still has a resource limit, except in California. They are Traditional Medicaid.
andersonimes@reddit
I know that. I said he was on Medicaid. They still wanted him drained dry first.
someguy984@reddit
Because he was elderly, that is not the expansion group. Before they will pay for a nursing home they want people to spend down assets.
andersonimes@reddit
Cool cool. So if you are old that's when you get shaken down before you are allowed to die. Seems correct.
someguy984@reddit
The same thing happens in the UK. Before Social Care will pay they also want you to spend down funds.
ltrozanovette@reddit
I’m sure he’s looked into all his options, but doesn’t he qualify for a special enrollment period in the marketplace after being laid off? Sorry your friend is going through this, what a nightmare situation. ❤️
NoDepartment8@reddit
Maybe - it depends on whether you have short-term and long-term disability insurance as part of your benefits package, whether your employer is subject to FMLA, how long cancer treatments incapacitate you, and honestly what your debt-to-income ratio is at the beginning of your diagnosis and treatment. A lot of those factors have to align just right for either the best case or the worst case scenario to play out. It’ll probably be somewhere in the middle.
Forsaken-Barracuda25@reddit
Canada is usually overstretched when it comes to beds or diagnostic machines, so they outsource to third party suppliers. The quality of the service varies. In some cases you need to pay out of pocket. And sometimes there are just very long waits.
progressiveprepper@reddit
The biggest problem with U.S. healthcare is that it exists at the whim of your employer. It can be taken away instantly with little or no warning, should you be fired or laid-off. I lived in The Netherlands for years, am a U.S.citizen and now live in Mexico. I have experienced all three systems. I would place the U.S. last. It's only great healthcare if you have insurance and can afford it. The U.S system is badly broken and looking to be furter damaged...Stay in Germany if this is your primary concern. (I'm also an RN - so I understand the U.S. system well.)
williamgman@reddit
I'm getting my 🍿 for this one...
norbi-wan@reddit
Bro. after the comment section I am even more confused than ever before
williamgman@reddit
These are political times to be sure.
Forsaken-Barracuda25@reddit
I have lived in places in the states where your coverage was determined on your income. Sometimes finding pharmaceuticals was very difficult and very expensive for some of the lower income people. I never saw that in the UK, and Canada is pretty good at having coverage, but you still pay, quite a bit to be honest.
Forsaken-Barracuda25@reddit
Having lived in the UK / Europe, Canada and United States, I find that the states falls very far behind in its service. You pay for everything and if you're not the right demographic, you may not get health Care at all. When I first moved to the uk, my son who was essentially a baby at the time, became very sick shortly after we landed. We took him to the NHS and he was taken care of with excellent service and no charge. And that is the kind of service that we had living in the UK ever since.
Forsaken-Barracuda25@reddit
In Canada, they have no problem making patients pay. Basic health care is decent, but if something out of the ordinary or even just optional happens, you pay. Canada is not inexpensive at all.
norbi-wan@reddit
What do you mean by not right demographic?
WadeDRubicon@reddit
I'm sorry about your father.
The Affordable Care Act eliminated the ability of insurers to deny you for pre-existing conditions. (Unlike in Germany, where I have been denied coverage for mine.)
Other than that, there is no such thing as US healthcare outside of the VA. There are 50 different states' healthcare systems, and even in some of those, there's a further urban/rural divide. tldr: Living near a medium-to-larger metro area with a university healthcare system usually grants you the best access, choice of providers, and up-to-date treatments.
I prefer the US system with a non-HMO plan, which is shorthand for "I can pick most any provider because the network is big, and I don't need a referral to see a specialist." I especially prefer the way my chronic illness/disability was treated in the US in a specialty clinic setting, a parallel structure for which simply does not exist in Germany.
I also strongly prefer the digitization of the "US" system. Once I was in a hospital/university system I liked, all my providers there used the same electronic medical record (EMR) system. There was one central online place to communicate with any of them, refer to details I may have forgotten during a visit, request refills, view upcoming appointments. Here in Germany, it's every man for himself, and nobody is for me.
Germany is superior (federally) in the sense of your care (and/or job) being better protected in the case of ill health or job loss, although some states may have better protections than others (again, that 50-states thing). Yes the bureaucracy, but wait times for decisions on most applications are shorter than similar ones in the US (more on that below).
Not cancer-specific, but: in the US when I was blinded for 10 months due to an MS brain lesion and couldn't see to drive or work, I qualified for FMLA unpaid leave, which protected my job for 3 months. My healthcare was already provided by my spouse's employer plan, which was superior to my options.
But the first communication post-work-leaving that I got from my short- and long-term disability insurance provider was the letter dropping me from coverage because I hadn't paid the monthly premium (which was usually deducted from my paycheck...which I wasn't getting...because I couldn't work).
If you have group/employer health insurance coverage before taking FMLA, you're still covered during FMLA time. After that? You could choose COBRA, which is often prohibitively expensive, but at least it's familiar. If you don't choose COBRA, you have a Special Enrollment Period to apply for a Marketplace Plan, which depending on your situation and where you live, can be really affordable and excellent. There are free advisors who can help you find a plan.
Depending on the severity of the diagnosis and treatment, you could apply for SSDI, which would put you in line for Medicare eligibility after 2 years. Some cancers are on the Compassionate Allowances list (CAL) for faster SSDI application processing (the average wait time is 7 months, and longer in many places even before the current administration's shenanigans), but even with a CAL diagnosis, you have to wait the 2 years for Medicare. The only exceptions are end-stage renal disease and ALS, those can get right on Medicare.
Wherever you live, you'll want to be an informed and proactive participant in your own care, always. In either place, life is better if you can find a primary care doc/Hausarzt who's easy to get in to see and confident in treating a range of conditions well.
polyglotconundrum@reddit
Jfc, the ACA DID NOT ELIMINATE THE ABILITY TO DENY PRE-EXISTING CONDITIONS. Not everyone qualifies for the ACA— and there are plenty of states in which the pre-existing bullshit is still very much a thing. People don’t seem to understand that it differs state to state, and whether you’re a US citizen.
NumerousRelease9887@reddit
"Under the Affordable Care Act, health insurance companies can’t refuse to cover you or charge you more just because you have a “pre-existing condition” — that is, a health problem you had before the date that new health coverage starts. They also can’t charge women more than men."
US Department of Health and Human Services
Also, the ACA is available for all people legally residing in the US who are not incarcerated. It is NOT limited to just citizens (this is for ALL states as it is federal law). Granted, we can't know what the future will bring, but that is how it is now.
polyglotconundrum@reddit
No, not if they’ve been in the US less than 5 years.
someguy984@reddit
ACA policies are for "lawfully present", Medicaid is for USC 5 years.
GullibleComplex-0601@reddit
I think you are misinformed on the ACA. Google it and you will see these folks are correct.
NumerousRelease9887@reddit
Actually, there is no waiting period for the Affordable Care Act, only for Medicaid and CHIP (welfare programs). Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services
DaytoDaySara@reddit
I can tell you that, in my experience, doctors listen more in Portugal and can be easier to book. You will actually meet your doctor/dentist and not a nurse/assistant/hygienist. The cost will be a small percentage of what you’d pay in the US.
My husband tore his tendon hiking in a small town Portugal. We went straight to the emergency room (now you have to call a specific number before heading the emergency room but that’s the only difference). We thought he had broken a bone or something because his ankle got dark and looked huge as if he had stuffed an orange in there. We paid 17$ at the ER and waited for like 20 min or so.
They x-rayed him. Nothing broken but had soft tissue damage. We then booked an appointment with a private clinic a week later to see what the damage was. That was 45$.
The doctor was amazing. He explained everything as we were looking at the screen. Told him it seemed he had torn it before, possibly as a child. Asked his habits. Told him what to do what not to do. Said that if in a few weeks he wants to try physical therapy that he could but that he would not need surgery. The appointment took maybe up to an hour. We talked to the doctor the whole time and he wasn’t rushing.
That is the kind of care I appreciate. Attentive, honest, and not rushed.
I do not have any experience with cancer in particular.
GullibleComplex-0601@reddit
Did you have English speaking doctors?
DaytoDaySara@reddit
Yes. One had actually worked in the US for a few years
asti006@reddit
German here, living in the US. The us system is good of you have good employee healthcare but you are screwed once you can’t work anymore.
Germany, my dad had a complicated mass in Germany. Took him 2 days to get an MRI and 5 days to get complicated spine surgery for the mass within a week from a Top notch surgeon. You just had to pay the private healthcare premium.. you may ask how much the premium is? €50 that’s how much it was.. i actually had to stop myself from laughing.
One thing i noticed in Germany, people are so used to everyone taking care of them and finding specialists etc, they don’t do the leg work themselves. I of course did, being in the US we know how the phone game with trying to find good doctors that are covered works.
I take the German system over the insane costs in the US anytime because you never know when you get a bill in the US that somehow wasn’t covered.
I work for an insurance company and they still found things that were out of network in my in network hospital during my babies birth. That shit just doesn’t happen in Germany (and no i didn’t pay it, i just spent a lot of time on the phone)
unnecessary_otter@reddit (OP)
Did your dad have completely separate private insurance (PKV) or public (GKV) with a private supplemental option? I can't imagine GKV would have those waiting times, I don't think I'm quite yet in the position where I can responsibly claim PKV, plus the fact private coverage gets way expensive in your old age.
asti006@reddit
Oh i want to add one thing, he said he couldn’t get that because he didn’t even know of those specialists. Just what the Hausarzt suggested. Me and little brother of course calling around. Funny enough i called the head surgeons office line at 6pm on a Tuesday and she answered herself because her assistant was gone. Told me to just have him give her a ring and make an appointment. Had one 2 days later and surgery within a week.
He had a big mass on his spine but they didn’t know what it was because it was also pressing on the Ischiasnerv (sorry don’t know in English right now).. it was scary because he couldn’t walk but he wasn’t in acute pain so he didn’t go to the hospital smh
asti006@reddit
Oh no, my dad is retired and just has normal retirement healthcare. But I was able to just pay the premium to see that specific doctor. But no waiting times. I know, i hear that a lot and even my dad is the type that rants how all the illegals immigrants get all the coverage but not the German. My aunt said that who work in the hospital. BUT here me and my brother are, both calling specialists and both getting appointments for him in each city (Chemnitz and Dresden). Mind you we live in the middle of nowhere in east Germany. So it’s odd to me when I hear those stories of delayed care. We had no problem to get spine and nerve specialists.
My aunt had skin cancer and got appointments right away, surgery within a few weeks and even got a recovery (Kur) no clue how to translate it.. rehab but nice by the beach.. within a few months.
NordicJesus@reddit
I don’t recall all the details, but I have heard that GKV may actually be more willing to cover experimental treatments when all else has failed.
Anyway, PKV isn’t necessarily much more expensive later if you choose a good plan. Which means you pay more while you’re younger, to save up for later. Which is good, because your employer covers some of the cost, too. I guess where it does get more expensive is when you have kids - which would be free with GKV, and chargeable with PKV. Maybe have a chat with a broker like online-pkv.de (I’m not affiliated with them).
Note that you MAY be able to get German PKV now and then keep it, even if you move to the US. Some PKV plans can be changed to cover you as a permanent foreign resident - but I don’t know if they would cover American citizens in the US. However, they should cover German expats. But there would usually be a higher premium. The other option would be to get into German PKV and then “freeze” it, which is called “Anwartschaft“. You would then only pay a small fee (€30 per month or so) to be able to immediately unfreeze your insurance should you move back to Germany later, even with preexisting conditions. There’s a “small” and “large” Anwartschaft, with the difference being if you keep saving for later or not. So if you go for the small one, expect much higher premiums once you move back. But based on what you wrote, if you’re healthy now, signing up for PKV and then getting a “kleine Anwartschaft“ once you move abroad could be a nice backup.
In any case, speak to a broker or multiple ones. I believe they can apply anonymously on your behalf and I think there are some tricks like applying for multiple insurance products at the same time, as they will all ask if you have ever been turned down by an insurance company before. So by applying to all of them on the same day, you can truthfully say no, even if some reject your application later.
Maybe speak to multiple brokers. The one I mentioned above has a strong online presence and seems very reliable and professional, there are some black sheep, but hopefully also other good ones. Make sure they spend enough time discussing preexisting conditions, don’t lie on the application. Good luck!
KarelKat@reddit
> The us system is good of you have good employee healthcare
I just want to elaborate on this because it crops up a lot and I think is a bit of a misconception that downplays how bad the US healthcare system can be. Healthcare plans have two aspects at a high level:
How much you pay for it out of pocket -> better plan, less out of pocket, covers more stuff.
What the insurance company is wiling to approve
The issue with the 'good' healthcare argument is that it focuses on (1) forgets that there is a massive fucking asterisk next to your plan that is "approved expenses". You can have the best, fanciest, most expensive US healthcare plan and they can still deny paying for treatment that *they* think is not necessary. You have no insight to how the decision to cover your expenses is made at best and at worst they're having some AI tool decide. You can't appeal to your employer who administers this 'good' plan. This is where the deny-delay-depose thing comes in where they will run down the clock by not paying out.
Please also consider stories like others on this thread https://www.reddit.com/r/expats/comments/1jot0wx/comment/mkujje0/ where people with decent insurance get nothing for it. There are stories on r/nursing about how insurance companies refuse admitting people with Pulmonary Embolisms to the hospital and instead they get sent home. Some make it, some don't.
soso_okok@reddit
There is no such thing as “good” health insurance anymore in the States. I want to shout this from the roof tops! The only ones who think this aren’t using it. The only exception may be Congressmen, otherwise we are all getting absolutely screwed by the system and paying for the privilege.
Alpacatastic@reddit
My parents had "Cadillac" healthcare in the US and my mom STILL ended up having to argue with people on the phone to get coverage for things like breast cancer biopsies. They eventually relented but it's never easy to deal with health insurance. Their whole goal is to make money and they do that by denying care whenever possible.
ClassicOk7872@reddit
Having to argue with people over the phone untile they cave in is still better than having to take them to court and win the case after shit's gone bad.
asti006@reddit
Isn’t it wild how much time you spent on the phone about healthcare in the states? That’s why we hate it now that we have a kid and are going to leave here soon. This can’t work forever and def not in retirement.
asti006@reddit
Oh i definitely agree with you. The system itself fucking sucks balls. It’s expensive and cumbersome and after one visit at the doctor you get 3-12 letters about random bills for random things. Nobody knows what your record is and every time you go to the doctor you have to fill out your entire health history again. That doesn’t happen in other places. Also if you have health insurance also means you don’t get covered until you hit a huge deductible and out of pocket max.
Talking numbers my friend pays $850 a month for herself, hubby and kiddo. Then she has to pay an additional $7000 until the insurance kicks in. The insurance will pay 90% AFTER 7k and after you spend $850 a month. It’s insanity.
I work for an insurance company (not health - more car/property but they have better contracts) and that’s how i get discounts. My plan is $150 a month (not including dental and vision… yes that’s separate in the states lol) and deductible is 3.5k.
I was just referring to the doctors doing a good job i have been seeing, not the admin and expense crap at all. That’s beyond bonkers!
Modullah@reddit
Yeah at the end of the day they have us thinking the scraps are amazing when in fact it’s still shit.
curtyshoo@reddit
My brother had non-Hodgkin lymphoma on Medicare (he's retired) in San Francisco ten years ago. He was treated at UCSF. He's alive.
My retired father-in-law had liver cancer in France ten years ago. He was treated in the public system. He's dead.
YMMV.
NumerousRelease9887@reddit
If he had original Medicare with a supplement, he had about the best healthcare coverage you could have ANYWHERE. I am also retired. I worked for both UCSF and Sutter CPMC in San Francisco (now retired). I think people who are dissatisfied with Medicare made the mistake of taking a private Medicare Advantage plan instead of original government Medicare. Some Medicare Advantage plans are OK, but they are typically HMO/PPO, like the coverage you would have while working. Same issues with network restrictions, referrals, and prior authorization requirements.
theGIRTHQUAKE@reddit
Watching my mother get cancer, suffer a torturous decline, and pass away due in large part to the gross ineptitude of the US healthcare system for those dependent on Medicare, while I received premium world-class specialist care for my family due to my excellent employer health insurance, was a big eye-opener and a big reason behind deciding to move to Europe.
Now I’m here, and mildly frustrated from time to time with some of the same things you mention, but then I remember that first world healthcare will always be available to my family and me regardless of my employment status, health, income or age, and I relax.
So I gave up a premium medical “quality of life” in the US because I knew that it would likely be gone when I needed it most, and accepted a slightly more annoying system but one that I can depend on unconditionally for the rest of my life.
NumerousRelease9887@reddit
Am I understanding that your experience was worse with Medicare than employer sponsored healthcare in the US? That's exactly the flip side of what most will experience. If you have traditional Medicare with a supplement, you have about the best healthcare plan there is. No networks. No waiting for referrals. No waiting for "prior authorization." You can literally go to almost any hospital in the US as most accept Medicare. You might live in North Carolina, but you have a rare type of cancer and can get specialized care at MD Anderson in Texas. If you choose to go on a private Medicare Advantage plan, then you lose these options and have basically the same type of coverage that most of us have from work. Most Medicare Advantage plans are HMO or PPO and are network restricted and require prior authorization for many things. If the US switched the entire country to traditional government Medicare, I dare say we would go immediately to being one of the best examples of a single payer medical system in the world. I know there is little chance of that happening, but Medicare is actually great!
cspybbq@reddit
I'm an American living in Germany.
The German costs are great, and the ER is pretty OK. I haven't seen a doctor or dentist I have been happy with. My medical experience is a broken foot, chest pain (turned out to be heart burn), two kids with depression, and kids with a chronic genetic kidney disease which will affect them in 20 years, and my wife needed a dermatologist.
Once you get seen in the ER, the doctors are good. When I had chest pain, the wait was about 10 minutes. When I broke my foot the wait was 5 hours, then I gave up and went home. I went back the next day and was seen in 2 hours.
6 weeks after I broke my foot I get a 2nd set of xrays, and had to bring them to a surgeon to review. I was in his office for just over 5 minutes. My foot still hurts every day, but it's not worth trying to find a doctor here. I'll just wait until I move back to the US.
Trying to find a specialist or dermatologist is hard, and you have to book a million years in advance. Perscriptions expire at the end of the quarter (even if they're a week old) so by the time the specialist sees you, you need to go back to your family doctor for a new perscription.
NordicJesus@reddit
It’s because you’re in the public system. If you were in the private system, it would be a very different experience.
nebulousx@reddit
You can't beat US healthcare if you have good insurance. I'm American, living in Sweden for the past 3 years. My former wife (died from cancer) got treatment at MD Anderson in Houston. It was the best treatment in the world. And they undoubtedly extended her life about a year.
I hate to think what it would have been like if I lived in Sweden. They hem haw and delay so much here that, if you have an aggressive cancer, it's going to be much farther along by the time you get treatment. And are you going to get PET scans every 6 months like my wife did? I doubt if you'll even get one.
Swedish healthcare is fine if you never have to use it.
People talk about the expense of US healthcare but then act like health care in Sweden and similar countries is "free". It's not remotely free. For what I paid for good health insurance in the US, vas the huge difference in taxes I pay in Sweden, I was much better off in the US. And not just financially. The care is better. Period.
NordicJesus@reddit
Healthcare varies a lot within Europe. As far as I know, Sweden has good treatment, but it may not be accessible (long waits etc.). There is a market with private doctors in Scandinavia that people pay for out of pocket because of these wait times (Kry in Sweden, Dr. Dropin in Norway).
Germany has a completely different system (dual system, public and private), and there is no such commercialized healthcare offer. You can’t really compare the German system to the Swedish system.
misatillo@reddit
I'm so sorry to hear about your wife. I don't know much about the US but I do about cancer in Spain. My mum got diagnosed by a yearly health check up at work. In 3-4 days she was starting chemotherapy and now she gets tests every month, after a year every 2-3 months, after 3 years, every 5, and so on. My sister and me got screened as well just in case it could be hereditary somehow (fortunately we are fine and it isn't) but since then they told us to do a yearly blood tests and general check up for just in case.
I am not sure how it is in Germany but I'm very surprised this is not the case in other EU countries. This is quite normal over here.
palbuddy1234@reddit
Part of the reason I like hanging out here is it kind of dispels myths people have. Assumptions like Swiss health care is phenomenal which isn't the case. The Nordics lead in everything and people are always happier somewhere else. Every country has it's pros and cons and as you said changes all the time.
The reality is good heath care is very expensive and if young people don't really want to pay for heath care for older people or unfit junk food addicted smokers it's kind of hard to raise taxes again. It's always a balance and very interesting to see how other countries try to solve universal problems.....to me at least.
ClassicOk7872@reddit
Yeah, these 'happiness reports' are complete BS. It is mostly self-reported happiness, on a scale of 1–5. What does that even mean? And when it comes to people in Finland or Denmark, who supposedly are the happiest people on earth–you don't see that in their faces.
misatillo@reddit
Having lived abroad for almost half of my life already demistified a lot of things to be honest. We tend to have certain ideas about certain places and I’m still shocked sometimes about it.
But you are right that every country has pros and cons. Coming from a country where we all believe is bad and everywhere else is better and discovering that it is not so much like it, is also kind of shocking.
brass427427@reddit
Do you mean Swiss or Swedish?
nebulousx@reddit
I'll admit to not having first hand "cancer" experience in Sweden, but my family and I have used the medical system here for multiple minor issues. I've just heard stories of people with cancer taking a LONG time before initial diagnosis. I honestly can't comment on the quality of treatment after diagnosis. It's just hard to get appointments here and the doctors are generally dismissive of patient complaints.
misatillo@reddit
That sounds bad to be honest. What a pity :( I hope it gets better and we all get the treatment that we deserve, no matter where we are.
spicytomatilloo@reddit
This is what a lot of people do not want to hear, but it is the truth.
KarelKat@reddit
> You can't beat US healthcare if you have good insurance.
Good insurance doesn't mean you get what it says on the tin. People with "good insurance" still get their claims denied routinely by US insurers. Just because your plan covers something does not mean your insurer will agree that it is medically necessary. There are stories of this on this very thread.
LaFemmeVoyage@reddit
The WHO has an online tool with tons of statistics around cancer around the world. If I'm reading it correctly (and I might not be), for all cancer types, comparing to Europe, the US has a higher incidence per 100k (305.02 vs 249.2), but a lower mortality rate (62.3 vs. 82.1).
Gco.iarc.fr
Anecdotally, having lived in the US, Germany, and France, I prefer the French system, but no system is perfect.
asti006@reddit
Could you elaborate on that? I’m a German living in the US and moving to France lol so it would be great to hear some details if possible.
LaFemmeVoyage@reddit
First, expect it will take a LONG time to get into the French system and get your carte Vitale. This is normal, unfortunately. Keep the paperwork for any visits, and you can submit them later for reimbursement.
But once you're in, there's no duel class system in France like in Germany (public vs. private). National insurance covers 70% of sector 1 costs (docs can choose to be sector 2 or 3 and charge more, especially specialists), and you get a mutuelle to cover the rest to whatever degree you prefer. If you're working, your employer will provide a mutuelle. With a strong mutuelle, I get reimbursement 100% of my remaining costs normally.
You'll need a family doctor (Médecin traitant) registered with the system to get fully reimbursed. Otherwise, things function similarly to Germany. The GP has to give you a referral for a specialist. Basically, I just tell mine who I want to see and why, and he writes it up, lol.
Doctolib is widely, although not universally, used.
You'll have more choices of doctors if you speak French and/or are in Paris or another big city.
The main downside in France vs. Germany that I've personally experienced is getting a newer class of medicine for migraines. They were paid by public insurance in Germany but are not reimbursed in France (and are too expensive to pay for out of pocket).
Obviously, it depends on your income level, but I have found my health care related payroll deductions to be smaller in France, too. The employer pays a higher share here.
Brave_Needleworker95@reddit
Thank you for this information. Even if you’re an EU citizen, from another country, it takes a long time to get into the French system and get a Carte Vitale? Or is that only the case for people outside of the EU? Otherwise Is it just a long process?
LaFemmeVoyage@reddit
I'm not an EU citizen, so I don't know for sure, but generally a good rule of thumb in France is to expect anything to do with government administration to take a long time. Mine took 4ish months, and that was considered quick 🤷♀️
childofaether@reddit
Is the french system still tout favorite despite the big issues that keep growing? It seems very inconsistent depending on location... I hear friends in other cities need 6 months for appointments with specialists, but where I live they're almost all available within a couple weeks unless you want the most reputable in town who has a 2-4 months waiting time. ER is an unholy shitshow everywhere. That being said, I don't know anyone who had to deal with cancer, which ultimately is what matters the most to judge a healthcare system imo. I don't care waiting for a whole for non urgent specialists where the worst that can happen is a little discomfort or minor pain, but if there was a suspicion of cancer I'd like to see an oncologist yesterday and start quick treatment with access to state of the art immunotherapy.
LaFemmeVoyage@reddit
IMO yes, but in every country, it depends where you live, the speciality, etc. I waited 6 months to see a new neurologist in Germany and only a couple of weeks in France (Paris).
I heard 3rd hand accounts of a couple people who had cancer in France, and both had good outcomes, but I have no details and hopefully won't have to find out for myself. Same goes for ER visits.
Like I said, no system is perfect, and France has really screwed up by so strictly limiting the number of new doctors trained, for example. It can be hard to find a family doctor in both France and Germany too, even in large cities.
Baejax_the_Great@reddit
The ACA has made preexisting conditions a thing of the past in the US. You cannot be denied treatment for anything, really. You don't need to be employed to have healthcare, either, but it costs money. I had decent marketplace insurance for $400 a month that covered expensive ass new drugs (though I did also use the drug manufacturer coupons to further decrease the cost). You get some dumb snafus with insurance companies deciding which drugs you should try first and how many you have to fail before getting the good stuff etc etc, but you can be covered.
Now, this all depends on the current administration not repealing the ACA, something they have promised to do repeatedly. So... who knows. If the ACA gets destroyed, it will be much cheaper to be uninsured in Europe (or anywhere else in the world) than uninsured in the US (or underinsured anyway).
polyglotconundrum@reddit
well no, the pre-existing conditions thing is very much still a problem in certain states. Not everyone qualifies for ACA, and in states like Alabama and Tennessee insurances can find lots of ways not to pay you. It depends on the state, I’ve had to learn that the hard way.
Baejax_the_Great@reddit
Everyone qualifies for the ACA because it is a federal law, not a type of insurance. But reading some of the responses, it occurred to me that this probably does vary widely based on state. My sister got completely free maternal care in WI, something which I know is not universal.
polyglotconundrum@reddit
no, not everyone qualifies for the ACA, only citizens do.
NumerousRelease9887@reddit
No. Look it up. Everyone "lawfully present and not incarcerated" is eligible. You don't even have to have permanent residency (green card), and preexisting conditions can NOT be counted against you (either denial of coverage or higher premiums) in ANY state in the US.
polyglotconundrum@reddit
again, no. I would know. I’m one of those people, living in this system. Green card holders are sponsored and do not have access to Medicaid or Medicare. They may see some advantages in terms of regulation because of the ACA, but they do not have access to those resources.
NumerousRelease9887@reddit
I never said anything about receiving Medicare or Medicaid (that's kind of moving the goal posts don't ya think?). If you are on a sponsored visa, you are not eligible for Medicaid or other welfare assistance as your sponsor is responsible. No one (citizen or not) is eligible for Medicare unless they've (or their spouse) paid into the system for 40 quarters (10 years), or they buy into it. All legal residents are eligible for insurance through the ACA even if they are not eligible for Medicaid due to their immigration status. This includes premium tax credits and cost sharing reductions based on income. There is no waiting period.
Baejax_the_Great@reddit
You mean marketplace insurance, and that's not entirely true, either. There's a page on the marketplace website that says which residents are eligible for marketplace insurance.
polyglotconundrum@reddit
Yes, the state definitely matters. Also my bad, it’s actually just the first 5 years of being a permanent resident that you don’t have access to ACA insurance. But still. Those people do not have access to madicare or medicaid.
Baejax_the_Great@reddit
You are once again incorrect. You must wait five years for medicaid or CHIP. Legal residents are eligible to purchase insurance on the marketplace.
Given that you appear to not know what ACA even means, I'm not sure why you keep asserting falsehoods.
polyglotconundrum@reddit
So you’re saying I’m right and then that I’m asserting falsehoods lol okay buddy
giraloco@reddit
This is correct. I have good insurance with ACA in California. It is very expensive but they covered surgery and out of state emergency room care without any issues. The problem in the US is that you never know what you are getting. It may vary a lot by insurer and state and may degrade with a Government that doesn't give a shit about people. Also, there is no guarantee that the insurance you get from work is any good.
innocentbunnies@reddit
I can’t speak for European healthcare as I’ve not experienced that but I can speak for US healthcare in regard to at least terminal cancer. My FIL passed last year after being diagnosed with glioblastoma, a cancer for which there is absolutely no cure for and any treatment you can get would only prolong your life for anywhere from a few weeks to a few months, maybe. My in-laws have decent enough insurance but they had to fight hard just to allow my FIL to have basic end of life care because there was no point in fighting this type of cancer. The insurance didn’t want to cover him in hospice, didn’t want to cover his medication to alleviate the pain. They basically wanted him to either try treatment that wouldn’t work (because nothing works on this aggressive brain cancer) or die faster. This is despite the fact that he went from normal at Christmas to severe issues in January where they bounced from urgent care to local emergency hospital room, to another city’s hospital because the local hospital didn’t have the equipment or people to handle it, followed by a series of specialists. Then there was testing in February by a bunch of specialists that saw a mass grow 50% in the span of ten days, diagnosis around March 20th, dead by May 27th. So it’s not like he lingered and the only reason things panned out the way they did is because my MIL did all the legwork fighting for the coverage using her teacher’s insurance and Medicare because my FIL’s company dropped coverage once he had to quit working.
If you develop cancer in the US and are having to leave the workforce to handle treatment, be prepared to not have good insurance anymore. The ACA may have gotten rid of the pre-existing conditions stuff but insurance purchased through the marketplace is expensive and doesn’t cover as much as you’d think. I once needed ankle surgery because I had no cartilage in one of my ankles due to a previous break that didn’t heal right and they didn’t want to cover it because something or someone involved in the process wasn’t “in network”. It’s been a decade since then so I don’t remember the details on that well at this point.
Obviously I’m one of many people who have been around US healthcare and there are people who have had better experiences and there are many people who have had worse experiences. But I don’t think my experiences are exactly uncommon either. If it were me and I had guaranteed access to care for cancer, I would 1000% go for the guaranteed care. Especially if it meant I didn’t have to fight insurance and doctors while trying to deal with a severe issue like cancer.
officerevening@reddit
Jesus Christ. My dad passed from glioblastoma, in Ireland. He had round the clock hospice care for over six months once my mom couldn't take care of him at home any more. Paid for the state, and he more than paid it back over a lifetime of paying taxes, but that part shouldn't and didn't matter. It was still far from acceptable really, because glioblastoma is a vicious disease and he should have had access to a medically assisted death on his own terms. But the idea that anyone could be denied pain meds or palliative care when facing a terminal and rapidly developing disease like glioblastoma... that is unthinkable. Easing the experience of the dying should be a fundamental expectation for any government.
hamsterwheelin@reddit
No you understand why we have people like Super Mario's brother here in the US.
WestSideDrummer16@reddit
Is Reddit now surprising the name of a beloved green Italian plumber?
Curious-Gain-7148@reddit
Everything you’re saying is valid, but I do want to add another layer for OP to evaluate.
The type of insurance available to you on marketplace, varies by state. For several years I voluntarily utilized the marketplace for myself and my family. We were going through a complicated medical condition. I was able to choose from several really great plans through marketplace.
So the availability of plans varies by state. I think some states have a really great mix of options and other states do not.
WadeDRubicon@reddit
The federal No Surprises Act (2022) would probably prevent this from happening now. It helps close that (likely) kind of loophole, and extend coverage in the case of a provider leaving a network.
innocentbunnies@reddit
Probably now but I was also in Texas at the time and they fought hard to not even have the marketplace be an option before finally deciding to handicap it as much as possible instead. Having said that, I also wouldn’t trust the No Surprised Act to be an act that stays for long due to it being something that the former administration passed. Plus, any subsidies to make the ACA healthcare plans affordable are going to end this year too.
dnb_4eva@reddit
I would be focusing on preventing cancer; it seems to me that Germany has a healthier overall lifestyle which makes it lower in cancer rates.
NumerousRelease9887@reddit
I used to think that about Europe in general (vs US). It's just not true when you look at statistical data on cancer.
In the US, colorectal cancer screening is supposed to start at 45 for people of average risk (no risk factors). The "gold standard" is a colonoscopy every 10 years until at least 75 (most MDs will push you to have one at 85). If there are any polyps or other abnormalities, you get the procedure done again in 2-5 years. If you opt for a FiT test (checks hemoglobin in stool sample), it is repeated every year. A newer test called Cologuard tests for hemoglobin and abnormal DNA and is done every 3 years. In Canada, UK, Japan, and EU, the "gold standard" is a FiT test every 2 years (instead of every year in the US), and colonoscopy is not offered unless high risk. They also don't start routine surveillance until 50 and end it at 75.
I figured those other countries had lower risks of colon cancer due to less processed food, so they didn't need as much surveillance as people in the US. I looked up the statistics, and in fact, Japan and most of the EU have higher rates of colon cancer as well as a higher mortality rate for it. Hungary, Slovakia, Norway, the Netherlands, and Denmark had particularly high rates. While I agree that the average European eats a healthier diet than the average American, it certainly isn't helping with their GI cancer rates.
proof_required@reddit
Germany has the lowest life expectancy among Western European countries.
asti006@reddit
But they are all really close around 81-82 years of age.. (German really scared for her parents for a second lol)
proof_required@reddit
This is true for lot of western European countries. Lot of old people. It's not just the age but also eating habits.
ClassicOk7872@reddit
That's because half of Germany used to be part of the Eastern bloc.
dnb_4eva@reddit
Still higher than the US.
austin06@reddit
In the US and I think we have a system that needs a lot of work to make it work for all people. However, until my husband was diagnosed with a genetic condition I didn't fully appreciate what options were available in the US that may not be elsewhere.
We both have used ACA as self employed people for many years and my husband is now on medicare two years. He has been on an expensive medication , that, yes, is almost cost free in a very few other places like Australia, but the vast majority of people with this condition in other countries, including the UK, either do not have any access to this drug or the drug is very, very hard to get prescribed.
The drug is the cutting edge treatment. He also is in a drug trial and has access to several drug trials for newer treatments, many of which just aren't available except in the US.
That said, right now, all this is under attack and in danger of being dismantled for no good reason at all. So. We'll see what happens.
NumerousRelease9887@reddit
You bring up a good point with the availability of medication. I retired from hospital pharmacy after 40 years (in the US). We have some expensive biological type medications that simply are not approved in the EU. They're not considered "cost-effective." That doesn't mean that they don't work (they do, often when nothing else will), but they are simply too expensive for the healthcare system budget.
palbuddy1234@reddit
I put American health care (if you have the money for it) top notch in many ways. Specialists, Wait-Times, Patient centered etc. If you have a good job, low co-pays and if your a single healthy man without a lot of complications pretty straightforward and cheap enough. Again based upon the company there is long term disability which I don't understand fully. Overall if I made a high salary my family and I would prefer it.
Where I am Switzerland, it is cheaper, but I do pay for it with an Obamacare-like service with compulsory insurance, and more things but not everything covered is cheaper overall for my family but not as good. I will say dealing with insurance companies, pharmacies, and specialists is pretty easy. Though it's not as patient centered, and I really haven't been impressed with ER visits, and some important things for my family aren't covered. It's simple as you say, but good enough I suppose.
ohmymind_123@reddit
Are you satisfied with the quality of appointments (duration, being heard and treated with respect, care etc.) and the quality of the specialists themselves in CH? Looking to relocate from Germany, and the system and doctors here have traumatized me.
palbuddy1234@reddit
DM me
Acceptable-Egg-8548@reddit
In which part of Switzerland do you pay less for healthcare? Not where I live—premiums cost 400–500 CHF a month, plus 500–2,500 CHF out of pocket. I'd say Switzerland is like the US of Europe.
ClassicOk7872@reddit
It is expensive and, crazily enough, doesn't even include dental.
brass427427@reddit
The two systems are similar (the Swiss is less expensive and more comprehensive), and it is incredibly easy to work with. It is not 'nationalized' or 'socialism' or any of that other crap you hear.
palbuddy1234@reddit
Yes, it is expensive. Our kids have reduced premiums but it's cheaper than many friends have it in the States. The premiums are taken from their paychecks and they don't see it.
Brave_Needleworker95@reddit
Anyone have personal experiences with the French healthcare system?
LaFemmeVoyage@reddit
Yes, see my comments above.
8thHouseVirgo@reddit
I think you’d be crazy to come back here, especially now. And for what it’s worth, I have a friend who needed a HEART TRANSPLANT at 48, an inherited disease. Her husband worked for the school district, “good insurance”. She still needed a GoFundMe to cover things insurance denied, especially for her recovery.
dallyan@reddit
If you have good insurance in the US it’s great. I always had excellent coverage when I lived there (yay unions!) and actually paid less out of pocket than I do now living in Switzerland. But what if you lose your job? It’s a huge risk. It makes me hesitant to move back to the US, besides the whole clusterfuck going on right now.
ohmymind_123@reddit
Are you satisfied with the quality of doctors in Switzerland?
carnivorousdrew@reddit
As someone who has a chronic condition and has experienced 4 different systems (US, Italian, Spanish and Dutch), I can say without shadow of doubt that the US system is the best if you have good insurance from your employer. After the US, the Spanish and Italian ones are the best, and if the Italian one had better funding management, I think it would be probably better than the US one, because if you have no insurance you could still rely on competent doctors and decent hospitals. The Dutch system is horrible, and it is the system that caused my chronic illness that I will bring with me to the grave. If you are in a country where you need healthcare insurance but it can be subsidized by the government and the system is not litigious, you wilk end up in pseudoscience land with GP's that will "prescribe" tea, meditation and doing a rain dance to cure an infected wound, because their main interest will be to avoid you spend the insurance money. And then you get to live with the consequences of issues that developed but could have easily been treated had the system been prevention based and closer to the Hippocratic oath. The German system used to be really good, I have family in Germany, but with the change more towards insurances it is becoming the same shitshow as the Netherlands, and it is also easy to brainwash the population into believing in no prevention needed, herd immunity and many more nonsensical things that only help the insurances. Then, good luck suing doctors or clinics in these countries, they are almost untouchable and your lower salary surely will not keep the lawyers on the payroll for long.
So, in the end, I'd rather be in debt than with my current chronic illness, and I'd rather go through extra paperwork and phone calls but have the doctors do preventive checks because the litigious system keeps them in check. Between the US and Italy I may prefer the Italian system, but the US has the most advanced machines, tests and treatments. It all depends on what conditions you have, think of developing or how much you care about prevention.
belleofnaspt@reddit
As a resident in Netherlands, I agree with the take about Netherlands. I have recurring conjuctivitis since December (5 times already) and only during March I was referred to opthalmologist. I had to wait 3 weeks for an appointment and my eye was not inflammed anymore (it responds to antibiotic cream but inflammation comes back after 2-4 weeks in my left eye) so they said nothing is wrong with the eye and my headache is just a side effect (I am suffering from daily constant headache around my eye and only half of my head. I asked for a referral to neurologist to rule out anything but GP and opthalmologist don't think its necessary. GP issued me a medicine that is unavailable in the pharmacy because of the ingredient (Pharmacist explained to me that this medicine is no longer issued because of an active ingredient), I have messaged the hospital but its been 3 days now and no reply since. Insurance also said to reach to them again if they are not responsive. The battle to being diagnosed and being listened to is just difficult. I feel like I am in a constant fear of being diagnosed too late or misdiagnosed. I am planning to go to my home country (Philippines) to have a thorough checkup. My husband (also from Philippines) who currently works in the US and has a good insurance with employer do not have this fear.
ohmymind_123@reddit
Just hop on a train and go see a doctor in Belgium. You might even be entitled to a reimbursement via your EHIC card, even if it's a planned treatment, not an emergency/accident.
massive_cock@reddit
I've had a mixed experience with Dutch healthcare as a new resident of only a few years. My initial GP contacts were pretty upsetting, with the fill-in doctor being abrupt, rude, dismissive, and absolutely not listening past the first sentence before deciding she knew what was what and didn't need any further input from me.
But after that, when the regular GP returned, everything has been great. I get appointments same or next day if it's any sort of active symptom, and I've been referred to a specialist on the spot and seen within a week, and immediately scheduled for a proper series of medications and treatments.
I do feel there's a lack of screening and preventative care. And there doesn't seem to be a holistic, big-picture approach to symptoms and solutions - each visit is short, focuses on just one or two symptoms, and chases down those lines rather than ever looking at the totality for connections between symptoms. I'm not a doctor and am speaking from a place of ignorance, to be clear, but I feel as if the style or methodology is not great. And I've come to worry about chronic or undetected illnesses taking me out earlier than necessary, as a result, as I'm approaching 50. But I've not had a problem getting a problem treated appropriately, and quickly, when the mystery of diagnosis was solved.
carnivorousdrew@reddit
Dutch GP's are basically illiterates. Give me two weeks of full time study and I will outperform 99.999% of Dutch GP's at any task, even not medically related ones. lol. They are purposely selected stupid because they have to be just pawns to the healthcare insurances and clinics. I bet they don't even do the Hippocratic oath. I had a similar experience to yours in ER, I was saved by the good judgement of a doctor who was a first generation Dutch, while a nazi looking one wanted to send me home with an antibiotic resistant infection in my kidney. Fuck them all.
carnivorousdrew@reddit
We left the Netherlands also because of living in fear we might develop something, get sick with something and end up badly sick or worse because of their negligence and corruption. We moved to Italy to start a family because I think you must be either really brave or really naive to trust the pregnancy process to the Dutch healthcare system. You have to advocate for yourself, in the last two years I threatened to sue the clinic twice because they would just not do their job or have us wait WEEKS with symptoms and refuse to prescribe a visit with a specialist. The Dutch will learn in the near future what their silly system entails but I decided not to be part of the casualties of their stupidity anymore.
misatillo@reddit
One of the reasons I left the Netherlands is this one too. I had 3 big issues that only got worse and eded me going back home (Spain) to be treated properly during the years I lived over there. No thanks
LowerBed5334@reddit
What do you mean "the change more toward insurances" in Germany? The German system has always been through insurance companies.
carnivorousdrew@reddit
No, I believe it started in the 90s, before it was public.
LowerBed5334@reddit
I believe you don't know much about the German health care system.
TinyWabbit01@reddit
The exact reason I left the Netherlands. Horrendous healthcare system. And the attitude of the Dutch people when you try to explain it is not a great/ or even good system anymore. Their behavior is horrendous, after all the issues I and others have endured then to belittle our experiences. That was the final straw to me.
The Dutch healthcare was decent in the 1990-2005 it's in a vastly worse state now.
Affectionate_Age752@reddit
The entire medical system in America is a joke. We're on Greece, we have private health insurance as we are new expats. We have been paying doctor visits and my wife's medications out of pocket because we have a $2500 yearly deductible.
Bet company's for mess in the US than paying out of pocket here.
Here's one example. She got a prescription here last month, they cost €3 out of pocket. Same prescription would have been $150 out of pocket.
Her $5 copay was more than the total oitbif cost here.
She hurt her knee. Doctors visit with an MRI was €40.
norbi-wan@reddit
Wow! The stories are the 2 end of the scale. One end : US medical system is great, other end it's horrible. I'm more confused now than I was before reading this post. 😵💫
unnecessary_otter@reddit (OP)
Tell me about it... :/
Mysteriouskid00@reddit
Let me give you a story.
A 30 yr old friend had a breast cancer diagnosis. Flew to the US, signed up for an ACA plan the day she landed.
Low income, so subsidies fully paid for insurance. Was seen by an oncologist the week she landed and started therapy after the first visit.
Drugs are expensive but after applying for assistance it came out to $25 per month. Received the latest therapy not yet available in Europe. Now in remission.
She had fantastic care for not much out of pocket since she is lower income. It’s a complex system and all the calling around wastes time, but she likely would have been looking at more side effects had she not come to the US
norbi-wan@reddit
Wow! The stories are the 2 end of the scale. One end : US medical system is great, other end it's horrible. I'm more confused now than before I was reading this post. 😵💫
FrauAmarylis@reddit
Germany didn’t impress us. I have commented this before in this sub- my husband was in the Krankenhaus for 8 days (they wanted to keep him another weekend for observation but he begged to be released). They got the wrong area the first to MRIs and finally on the 3rd they got the right one. My husband was in pain on morphine until the end of it.
The doctors Don’t work nights or weekends (skeleton crew only), my husband had to share a room with 3 other people until they processed our American insurance and then it was just him and one other patient.
By contrast I had thoracic surgery last year in the US and my surgeon came in on Saturday to check and release me- for a total of one night in the hospital, and I had a private room with an ocean view.
My husband loved the Kaffee and Kuchen cart coming around every day and he flirted with the food ladies so he could get an extra piece if bread for breakfast. 8 days in there laying down eating Spaetzle, kuchen, etc, and he lost 14 lbs.
Also, my young German language teacher was always in pain with a wrist injury- she was waiting months to see a specialist.
And a 35 y o S. American professor we know here in London told us his German doctor a few years ago dismissed his pain and said it was nothing. The professor flew home to his country and his dad is a different specialty but told him it seems like it’s the gall bladder. Sure enough, he needed gall bladder surgery.
In my Gen X subreddit Americans were all talking about what it’s like to get the Shingles vaccine since at age 50 you can opt to get it, but I looked on the NHS website here in London and it says they cover the vaccine starting at age 65.
Brits should be glad we are here, as our visas require us to pay thousands of pounds upfront for NHS care for the length of our visa, despite us having better private PPO insurance from the US that we use here.
The best kept secret in London is that everyone who can afford private health and dental insurance buys it.
Most Americans we know fly to the US for healthcare.
Most An
childofaether@reddit
How realistic is flying back to the US without a US health insurance plan? Wouldn't it be unaffordable for the things where being in the US actually matters? Like, if you fly for cancer but it costs 7 figures you don't have, what's the point? And if you fly for some minor thing, what's the point?
ClassicOk7872@reddit
How realistic is flying back to the US for urgent matters, cases where frequent appointments are needed, or for emergencies?
childofaether@reddit
Actual emergencies like heart attacks don't give you the time to fly and you just go to the nearest ER obviously, but I'm genuinely curious about "urgent matters" that can wait a few days to get the best quality care, like cancer.
ClassicOk7872@reddit
I can't imagine cancer patients flying from the UK to the US every other week or so to get chemotherapy or radiation sessions.
childofaether@reddit
Well if they can afford to fly and get the treatment at US price I'm sure they can afford to stay for the duration of treatment. Also it wouldn't make much sense to fly to receive basic chemo or radiation, but if you can afford it, might be a consideration for treatment that may not be as readily available where you live, like hadron therapy, certain precision immunotherapy or other more 'state of the art' options.
Mr_Lumbergh@reddit
Healthcare isn’t the reason I left the US, but it is one of the reasons I won’t go back.
norbi-wan@reddit
Why did you leave?
Mr_Lumbergh@reddit
I had the opportunity and wanted to give it a go.
norbi-wan@reddit
Would you go to the US if you had a high earning profession e.g.: Software Engineer?
Mr_Lumbergh@reddit
Not at this point, no.
norbi-wan@reddit
Thank you. I am contemplating if I should go but I don't know. The money sound sooo great but all the Visa processes, and the current situation...
asti006@reddit
Make sure you learn the additional costs and take your lifestyle in consideration. We make very good money in the US but because we live in an expensive area where houses cost 1 mill and rent is 3k and up and daycare is 2-3k easily. That adds up, even if you make good money. Also, you lose your job and have no saving? Good luck. Just throwing some extra thoughts out there. It’s a great country if you are young and no kids, just don’t get sick and kids are pricy here too.
yoshimipinkrobot@reddit
US is the best at extending life with cancer
brass427427@reddit
As if that is a good thing.
ClassicOk7872@reddit
You can't know that at the time of diagnosis.
kirinlikethebeer@reddit
I can’t speak to cancer but I’ve lived in both systems and holy crap I have so much access and care in Germany. I have to actively remind myself to go to the doctor if something is bothering me because the USA trained me to avoid it (cost) as long as possible. I’m solving long standing problems now as a result. I did just have a skin cancer screening and there was a questionable mole which they incised all at no cost to myself. It’s wonderful.
Not_what_theyseem@reddit
If that reassures you, cancer is rarely seen as a pre-existing condition, even with heavy family history. Every single of my family members has had cancer and they never considered that as a risk factor, most people die of cancer now anyway.
That said, healthcare is much less holistic in the USA, and I don't mean that in a Woo way, American healthcare is very much a bandaid type of healthcare, there's very little preventive care or even education for the community.
I'm not German, I'm French, and I know that the French healthcare system is crumbling apart and perhaps I would get better treatment in the USA, but if Germany's system is still standing I'd stay in Germany. I'd say the US healthcare can be exceptional when things really go wrong but they don't prevent the wrong from happening.
My American colleague had been complaining of stomach pain for a while, even had an MRI (or scan not sure), and they sent her home saying her images looked fine, told her she probably ate something funny on vacaction. The pain wasn't going away after a year and she demanded she gets the images (idk how it is in Germany, in France you physically have your images, not in the US) and had a doctor friend look at it. Turns out she had spine cancer stage 3-C which is near terminal. The fact that doctors looked at those and didn't see it the first time is symptomatic of how things are done here. Once she was diagnosed she had exceptional care and didn't pay much as she was living in a state with somewhat subsidized healthcare (Colorado).
Honestly, if I were very ill I wouldn't want to deal with the complicated US healthcare system, when you are recovering from chemo treatment you have better things to do than be on the phone with your insurance.
heyitspokey@reddit
My mom lost her job when she got sick from heart disease in her 50s. Having no insurance disqualified her from the transplant list. Ultimately I was able to get her insurance, but she still passed away waiting on treatment.
It really varies greatly by what state you're in. Every state has their own healthcare laws and regulations in addition to federal. In some states there's the possibility of Medicaid if ACA (Obamacare) insurance unavailable. I recently learned there are 5 states that have short term disability if you loose you're job, so you get paid similiar to unemployment and I think there's some sort of insurance is available. Everyone knows there's a massive healthcare difference between places like Mississippi and Massachusetts, but there's also massive differences between less obvious states. It really depends where you settle.
Schlafloesigkeit@reddit
The issues with individual doctors persist everywhere even with quality insurance in the US. Some doctors even in the US have better bedside manner than others, the approach to pain management is "different" to say the least, but listening to symptoms, in almost any medical setting you have to learn to be an advocate for yourself and provide more information to the doctors. I have lived in 3 different countries (US, Denmark, Germany) and the more information and specifics you give, the better.
In any healthcare system, you will have the best, the average, and the not-so-great. In any country, I aim for the top third where I can, and park with the middle if I can handle it.
My in-laws have been cancer patients in Germany, in a smaller town, and their care has been solid, even if they have to travel 20-30km at times (which doesn't surprise me in a exurban area).
US healthcare even with a "good" job has been taxing with fighting insurance companies, but the real catch is when you are 50+ and subject to layoffs/ageism and you don't have that good insurance anymore.....that is when the bottom falls OUT for a lot of people, and frankly part of the reason we planned to leave the US (irrespective of politics) is not wanting the roll the dice late in our careers, especially with cancer running in the family. To lose your house after putting in the long hours you do in the US due to illness is something we aren't going to subject ourselves to.
Finally last point, medical care varies heavily across EU countries, as is evidenced by the comments.
DabidBeMe@reddit
I have only had very bad experiences in the U.S. I get very good care in Belgium.
ericblair21@reddit
As someone who's experienced both, I was happy with my care at both of them. If you have "normal" insurance in Belgium via the mutuels, there are certain treatments normally available in the US that you won't have access to (or may have to jump through other hoops to justify), but you can get specialist appointments in a reasonable time frame and the services are quite good. It's much more like French healthcare than Dutch or German.
Babbler666@reddit
P0p
zinky30@reddit
If you have the financial resources and the right health insurance, the USA 100%.
mandance17@reddit
It sounds like you might be trying to make decisions based on fear rather than what makes you happy in your heart? You want to base your life decisions around what might happen 20 years from now?
Cyrano_Knows@reddit
The thing about America is that its big. Really big.
That means that naturally a lot of the best, most specialized care might be in the US.
So in the end, I cant speak as to where you'd receive the best care possible, but man, I see so many comparisons of healthcare costs between America and outside of America and its just absolutely outrageous how much we (Americans) have to pay to ensure maximum profits for the stockholders/shareholders of these insurance/hospitals and who are somehow responsible for our medical coverage.
Receipts for 50 dollar ambulance rides or overnight stays that would cost an American thousands of dollars out of pocket and I won't quote anything more than that but I know it just goes up from there. Receipts from Europeans that would probably mean 10's to 100's of thousands of dollars in debt for an American.
I will say I have little doubt that there is very much a connection to affordable health care and preventative care that can make a big difference in someone's longterm health.