How much appetite should my manager have for hearing my frustrations?
Posted by QuadrupleKumquat@reddit | ExperiencedDevs | View on Reddit | 24 comments
My job is starting to suck for a few reasons and I have been vocal with my manager about it.
I’m a principal engineer at a fortune 50.
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My team is admittedly a bit backwatered. We’re doing important work but it’s not as complex as other teams and most of the mid level engineers have been picked off my team, leaving me a flock of junior devs to herd. Mostly they’re too junior to make meaningful contributions without a ton of mentoring and hand holding. I try to keep them busy and mentored but doing it well takes up a ton of my time.
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Same situation for the product management team. Their PMs are junior and can’t really see a projects through from idea to production. They bring me a lot of half cooked specs which means I need to spend a significant amount of effort educating them on why what they’re asking for won’t work or won’t solve the business problem they’ve been asked to solve.
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Putting the two above issues together, any work that really matters gets dumped into my lap to deliver because I’m the one who can deliver a solution from start to finish, while cutting through whatever product or engineering issues we run into. Because of this, I am given all the fire drills that have executive visibility because they don’t really trust anyone else enough. I am super burnt out on resolving these fire drills that are usually half baked initiatives or technical integrations with third parties that our VP wants, but seldom have any long term vision.
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Lastly, I got a good review but someone in upper management or HR adjusted my manager’s guidance for my year raise downwards for some reason that no one will tell me. My manager has been unable to learn why and he feels like he has exhausted his paths to more information. I’m unsure if this is a management technique trying to say about something about my performance, which seems ineffective unless someone tells me the reason, or just some kind of company wide practice about level setting. I have asked other managers and they have heard of this happening but no one knows why.
I feel like this all largely “normal” work BS that I honestly think that my manager has no ability to resolve, either due to our org’s dysfunction or his inability to navigate the dysfunction.
I have been vocal with him about my frustration with all of these issues. I’m always clear with him that I am frustrated at the company and the situation and not with him, but he recently indicated he’s kind of done with it it all, and suggested we take a step back and “learn how to work better together.”
I think it’s his job to hear me out and interface our team’s issues with the org and company but it seems he feels like he wants to turn the page.
I’m kind of taken aback that he suggested I should complain about this stuff less. He seems burnt out too, and maybe is in a similar situation in feeling kind of hung out by the organization. He trying to resolve some of the issues, but I can appreciate he can’t suddenly add a bunch of senior PMs who know that there doing.
So I can appreciate he’s doing what he can, and maybe but at the end of the day I don’t have any other avenue to direct my feedback or frustrations to. He should be better at giving me a place to talk, taking whatever actionable takeaways he can, and letting the rest of the frustration just fall away. It’s what I try to do when managing others.
It’s hard for me to tell if I’m just burnt out and disgruntled and I need to reframe my expectation and attitude, or if this place is just a dysfunctional dead end for me. Maybe I should have been focusing more on growing the team to solve these problems but I’ve been neck deep on these priority tasks.
I’ve never had this kind of problem with a boss before in 20+ years of software experience.
Should my manager expect to hear about this stuff until it’s resolved, or should I just shut up and keep my head down while I look for another job?
Pale-Recording744@reddit
Hey OP,
Your situation is echoingly to the situation I am in with my current position; team with brain drain, silly expectations and fires left, right and centre. Perhaps where we differ is that my project was getting more and more priorities rather than less.
I ended up down a similar road as you: pushing what I can push to fix (mentoring, technical leadership) and frustratingly giving unresolved feedback on the aspects I can't change. In addition, seeing all of this work not add up to extra financial return is exceedingly annoying: especially when peers without the constraints seemingly get to move on to different projects or receive different job titles.
The resolution I've opted for is leaving to different pastures; and I think that might be the best option for you too. I am much happier with this decision, especially with the included pay and package benefits from jumping ship.
Naturally this isn't perfect: I'm currently in my notice period and I've found that not only has dumping and frustrations bitten me back, but there's clear resentment of a technical leader leaving the team: managers have talked behind my back, called me things such as "complainer", sulky and so on. I found myself instantly removed from workshops and discussion groups I was part of, even though I opted to give extra notice and not take leave to facilitate this. When you're leading in this way, the real recognition comes when they feel the gap you leave on departure and this is that realization in motion for me. (there's a team email chain named "Pale-recording departure - what's next" from the engineering director that I'm not privy to, which I found hilarious)
To be clear, this it unheard of in my career: collegial and kind have universally been the experiences of leaving a position in my job history and have traditionally always had great things to speak of managers.
I made that drastic mistake of thinking my manager was there to listen: they are not. They are there for you to pitch and work with, or around, where possible, to strategise your next move (either with, or against). Find alternative solutions for your venting on problems, develop a lack of real care towards those problems or try both. This is an experience I've chosen to take as a lesson of how not to operate; the game is chess and Uno and you don't want to be left holding the cards while your king is mated.
A core point you make is about the manager somewhat "giving up" pushing things, settling in and just dealing with it; your complaints are the direct antithesis of this, and therefore have developed from an issue you're working on together into a problem that your manager has to solve for themselves. Arguably, you should never give a problem unless you can solve it, get it solved or are going to be far away from said problem in a short time.
I would recommend getting your interview ducks in a row and start applying and networking. Your leadership experiences here should shine through a behavioral interview alone!
Feel free to reach out if you wish to discuss: writing this comment has been rather cathartic!
Life-Principle-3771@reddit
Why are you complaining instead of providing solutions? To me this is a red flag at the senior level, much less at principal. If your org is not performing then it's your job to formulate and deliver fixes to these problems. As a principal you have an immense amount of power.
incredulitor@reddit
What do you base that on that it's his job? Asking not in the sense that you're unjustified - you probably have many good reasons for thinking that - but those reasons are not necessarily the same ones anyone else thinks. Maybe it's worth scratching the surface of that. And related to that: was there any other feedback prior to this on what he wanted your working relationship to look like, or was this the first that any bigger picture vision or corrective input ever came up?
ConsulIncitatus@reddit
Your value is taking this imperfect situation and smoothing it out. That's why you're being paid at a higher level than these other people.
You're incorrect. You are complaining about the situation beneath you. You never do this unless you want specific action that needs managerial force (e.g., PIP).
You are only allowed to complain about the situation above you or laterally, over which you have no control and you need air cover from someone higher in the chain of command.
You are getting paid to solve a problem that is hard to solve. The best situation to be in is to be a key person who solves problems that are hard to solve. This is the key to job security. We're about to enter a deep recession from which the economy might never recover. Be thankful for the job you have.
metaphorm@reddit
there's a fine line between "giving/receiving feedback about the job" and "basically therapy for engineers". the former can have a lot of value, up to a point. the latter is sludgy and gross and leaves everyone involved feeling worse about both their job and your working relationship/communication. sounds like you crossed the line here.
I struggle with this too. I've been guilty of dumping on my manager when I'm feeling frustrated. the unfortunate truth is that's not what they're there for. at some point you have to just decide for yourself if you can grin and bear it or if you need to exit. your manager isn't going to be able to address all of the problems at the organization that are bothering you. they can only address things they actually have control over, which is usually not much. he's also got his own frustrations and his own priorities. he's got a lot more going on than just dealing with your dissatisfaction.
as usual, your only real choice is "should I stay or should I go?" and the only person who can answer that question is you.
SignoreBanana@reddit
Very good advice. Had to come to this realization myself that if I didn't have some kind of solution already lined up for a complaint, I should probably not complain about it (unless someone straight up asks for my opinion).
bharring52@reddit
I share my frustration once if I don't have a solution or mitigation or ask.
My boss needs to know what my frustrations and problems are.
Once they know them, though, what value is there in talking about them without an aim to improve them?
Venting is basically complaining while knowing full well there's no avenue to the conversation being productive.
Even when frustrations come up on valuable discussions, I try to just reference the frustration and move on.
I'm on good terms with my boss. We do chat a lot. I have vented on occasion. But its just wasting her time and mine.
We are engineers, not scientists. We deal with what is, and make it what it can be. We don't get to assume a perfect world. It's basically our day to day to deal with what isn't ideal.
Side note: are you great at mentoring? If so, perhaps you've become valued in part for training up up-and-comers. That is a valuable skill. More likely your team is a dumping ground.
Either way, sounds like no matter how good you are at mentoring, building up, and laying on more responsibilities as they develop, you're in a perfect situation to get better at it. And doing so is the perfect response to your current problems.
pseudoShadow@reddit
I’ve recently had this realisation and come to the same conclusion. I think I stepped over the line a bit too. Very much a lesson for the future.
QuadrupleKumquat@reddit (OP)
Thanks. I will think about this.
We have a good working relationship and my complaints are usually within the framework of trying to move through the same flavor of organizational dysfunction for the nineteenth time.
I’m not just griping to him for the sake of doing so, but I can appreciate we’ve probably reached the limit of beating some particular dead horses.
ThlintoRatscar@reddit
Don't forget: your manager is human too.
There are days where everyone dumps on me, and there's shit all I can do about the situation. Business rules dictate that there's only so many choices and my managers get paid to make them happen. Ideally, as least shitty as they can.
Some days, they're the person that needs the help.
... and then the next dev walks in to their office.
Historical_Pie_7218@reddit
I think this is particularly problematic for first-level engineering managers - they're probably newer to the job and remember what it's like to be a dev with problems, so they feel more pressure to take on additional emotional load.
Thormidable@reddit
If your manager didn't have the authority to enact change the last 18 times, why would he be able to now? I am sure he is as frustrated as you are. Bringing it up doesn't won't change anything.
At this point what matters is "with these frustrations do you still want the job?". That's not for you boss to decide.
AccountExciting961@reddit
>> your manager isn't going to be able to address all of the problems at the organization that are bothering you.
I'd say this is they key point. Fairly sure the manager did not enjoy their mids being picked off, either -and they likely are as disempowered as the OP is. Which also probably means that if the OP grows those jr into mids - they will be just picked off as the previous ones.
So, my money are on this being "a dysfunctional dead end"
LogicRaven_@reddit
Not every problem is solvable.
And if a problem is not solvable in a certain environment, then running in circles, getting more and more frustrated is unproductive.
You might need to stop, take a step back and accept the status quo or look for something else.
For example, your raise - it was likely adjusted downwards because of budget. Your manager tried to get an explanation, didn't manage. Now it's time to move on. If your salary is decent compared to market rates, then you just continue working instead of more investigations on the reason. If you believe you could get a better deal, then start interviewing.
Junior heavy team - keep growing them, involve them in the drills. They will eventually grow into mid-level. Here is an article that might help (paywalled): https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/p/growing-a-junior-team
You could periodically test the waters if you could get a more experienced dev. You could also think of ways of making your workdays sustainable.
You are in a powerful position with influence both on product and engineering. You have visibility with executives. What are your personal goals? Anything you could achieve with this leverage?
Stubbby@reddit
That alone tells me your manager is a typical corporate middle-messenger who takes orders from above and distributes below, then takes results from below and shares them above. Your manager is a cog devoid of free will there is nothing for him to gain by opposing anybody above him. I doubt there is really any appetite for leadership in your stack.
QuadrupleKumquat@reddit (OP)
Yep, sucks that he has so little agency, both for me and him. It seems to be sucking it out of him as much or more than me.
activematrix99@reddit
From my perspective, I think you are being managed out. They are giving you the crappy work, without resources, recognition, or raises. It's time to look for somthing new, or start saying "no" and see if they assign you to other work amd put someone else in this (terrible) position.
QuadrupleKumquat@reddit (OP)
That’s for the idea.
I think it’s functionally true, but I don’t think it’s targeted at me. Every other team I’ve spoken to has similar issues around recognition. Maybe they got their “normal” raises that I didnt get, but they are still nothing to write home about.
I had been hoping to make it work here for a few more years but really feeling like I got at least see what the market looks like for me.
ShaniquaQ@reddit
It seems like your team needs to level up because only one competent person able to make decisions and systematically break down a problems.... Is a problem.
Have you considered taking a long vacation and just letting them deal with everything without you? If you are really that important, that is the best way for them to see it
Your team is very unbalanced and it's not going to improve unless seats shift. It's happening everywhere these days and there is a ton of talent on the market
wrex1816@reddit
I think you need to learn to read the room on this.
At a Fortune 500, it's not like a FAANG type of tech company. They know things aren't ideal, that they lack budget to hire a surplus of amazing engineers, etc.
Part of your job here is to just know that's your job and do the best with what you've got. Any decent middle manager will be available for a vent every so often but then you need to just get on with it. But they need you to just go about the job as best you can and not come with every complaint you have... Maybe it's a little unspoken but that's what part of the job is at these companies. Some folks can't hack it because they can only handle "perfect condition" type of work. But ultimately this sounds like you're not really getting the political side of your job that you really need to start getting.
QuadrupleKumquat@reddit (OP)
I can be fine with the fortune 500 culture. It's not my bread and butter (I was acquired into the company from a small startup) but I can put up with it as hopefully I am just a few years from FIRE.
But either stop giving me projects that are fire drills with zero support, or at least recognize what I add with at least nominal cost of living increases.
The fact that I feel like I'm the only one being asked to go fast and my salary is effectively shrinking is the part that is making me feel really irked.
BugCompetitive8475@reddit
AS a first line manager there really isn't much he can do. He obviously needs you, there's no doubt in that, but when it comes to being able to fight for your raise etc, he either doesn't have the stomach to go against the powers that may be, or knows he will never win that fight so he doesn't bother. Any reasonable manager does try to get the best for their team, but few if any things are actually in his control. It is his job to hear your concerns, but at that point its truly becoming a circlejerk. As for the juniors, its a tale as old as time, overcommitment, under deliverance and lots of handholding. That doesn't go away in any org. But the fact that they are removing the good folks and handing you the juniors just screams that they don't really feel like investing in your org. You can always look for the door but we all know how hard that is nowadays. Honestly the only thing you can do is keep handholding the juniors and hope one emerges from the crowd and starts pulling weight, its the only real option.
Working_on_Writing@reddit
As a manager myself, I always say I'd rather hear it than not hear it, however there comes a point where you're just recycling bad air.
It doesn't sound like he can do very much else with your complaints at the moment, so I think he's right to indicate to you that it's time to move on from this topic.
Going over and over the same points will just reinforce the negativity in your mind. Venting is sometimes emotionally necessary, but it's a temporary release. Venting with your boss constantly will just put both of you in a negative headspace and waste time you could be spending more productively.
For comparison, I frequently talk to exec level leaders. They absolutely don't want to hear a rant more than once. You get 1 rant with them per topic. Then it's either actioned, or we move on. If you try and recycle bad air with them, they'll cut you off and move you on because they know it's not productive.
urlang@reddit
Have you tried offering him some choices?
For example (I am just cobbling something together based on a very surface-level understanding from your story)
Can we make raising our junior engineers our top priority? This way we can raise the effectiveness of the team and you, the principal engineer, can spend much more time on important design and alignment problems.
To that end, projects and fire drills that fall on your lap will go to other engineers even though they would take more coaching and time (from you) to complete the work. Since coaching takes so much of your time, you will spend much less time fixing or implementing things yourself.