Poll Finds That 75% of Scientists Are Thinking About Leaving the U.S.
Posted by avianeddy@reddit | collapse | View on Reddit | 125 comments
Posted by avianeddy@reddit | collapse | View on Reddit | 125 comments
CheesecakeEnough6049@reddit
Finally some good news
Celtiberian2023@reddit
Atlas Shrugged for liberals
avianeddy@reddit (OP)
Collapse-related because a mass displacement of scientists would mean a collapse in scientific research and advancements with dire consequences to entire industries.
Glancing-Thought@reddit
Um those scientists are just gonna do science elsewhere? Sure there will be disruption in whatever they were doing of varying degrees but people and knowledge are mobile.
unbreakablekango@reddit
Most scientists are like me, we have families and homes to support, so we are breadwinners first and scientists second. Very few scientists are the 1000% all-in, super dedicated lab-nerds that are depicted in Sci-Fi. Most of us are people who do science for a living and then go home to live our lives. If keeping a job in science becomes impossible, then we will switch to some other job and carry on with our lives. Also, I am going to guess that 95% of us are not interested in moving our families to another country. Immigration is brutally challenging and is definitely not my preferred option. But if we stay here, our chances of doing actual science decrease, so the world will absolutely lose scientists.
Glancing-Thought@reddit
You have a point of course. In practice and the short-term global science will take a hit. So there will be a lost decade or so at least. My appologies for trivializing it.
DeluxianHighPriest@reddit
I mean... The article is about scientists thinking about leaving the US, not the field of science.
Bored_Acolyte_44@reddit
They are not leaving the field, the field is leaving them.
DeluxianHighPriest@reddit
Well, no, first of all they're leaving their country of origin it seems.
Mediocre_Island828@reddit
as you comment on a poll that says it's only 25% lol
SmallClassroom9042@reddit
Name an advancement in the last 5 years that mattered?
Mother_FuckerJones@reddit
Just for Americans though, there are a lot of places that still like science.
malagic99@reddit
It’s not like they’re gonna die, they will continue innovating in countries where they won’t have to fear prosecution, and termination because of the whims of an unstable regime.
Cheetawolf@reddit
Sadly precisely as planned...
BKD2674@reddit
Good. Real what you sow.
HCPmovetocountry@reddit
If any doctors or nurses are reading this, I'm involved with recruiting health care professionals to Manitoba. Send me a message or check my post history.
Gott_ist_tot@reddit
What about medical technologists? Do you recruit them too?
HCPmovetocountry@reddit
Sent you a message.
NoBee3283@reddit
Welcome to Soviet Era America.
Inside-Palpitation25@reddit
Can't blame them.
AngusScrimm---------@reddit
Scientists want to leave, but we're going to make it safer for CEOs by trying to kill Luigi.
EnoughAd2682@reddit
The rest of the world is not much better, in fact, the rest of the world copy everything bad from the US, as the US control the global media.
upstatestruggler@reddit
Why wouldn’t they? They probably get death threats and their work isn’t taken seriously so like why even bother anymore!
SweetAlyssumm@reddit
This was a poll that 1600 people considering leaving the US self-selected to respond to, not a sample constructed to be random across all scientists. The percentage of scientists "thinking about leaving the US" is undoubtedly much smaller. This title is pretty click-baity.
My comment does not negate the shitty way Trump et al. are dealing with science, it's just a plea to be critical and questioning of everything, in that way that scientists are.
Lorax91@reddit
Any serious US scientist who hasn't at least considered the possibility of leaving either isn't paying attention or maybe missed some relevant history classes.
Mediocre_Island828@reddit
If there were good and plentiful options outside the US for science, more people would have already been doing it. There's a reason people try to come here, or that the people who do a postdoc in Europe end up coming back. Opportunities and wages aren't great in other places. It's hard enough to get a career going here as it is and it's hard to throw it away after investing so much in it.
Lorax91@reddit
That's fair. But the balance may shift now that the US is going full Idiocracy, so countries that still value science might start creating more opportunities.
Mediocre_Island828@reddit
China is in the best position to pick up the slack, but the language/culture barrier there is probably pretty steep and if the Chinese scientists that come here are any indication their work culture is insane.
Right now we spend about twice as much on R&D as the entire EU combined.
Lorax91@reddit
Right now or three months ago?
Mediocre_Island828@reddit
Academic research is getting hit from cuts to government funding, but the overwhelming majority of the science money is in the private sector here. They could all move somewhere else if things get too fucked, but it's not going to be fast.
I work at a company that does contract research and a fair bit of our business is from companies based in other countries. It's easier for them to pay us to do stuff than set up that infrastructure on their own.
MarkSCenter@reddit
Agree on all above. Just unfortunate that Gizmodo needed to distort the insights from Nature (which clearly stated „75% of US scientists who answered Nature poll consider leaving“) and turn it into something click-baity („Poll Finds That 75% of Scientists Are Thinking About Leaving the U.S.“), willingly or incompetently.
I thought the rest of the article was well done though with valuable references.
Alarming_Award5575@reddit
Gizmodo does as Gizmodoes.
No surprises here.
SweetAlyssumm@reddit
I am a serious scientist and I would not move for reasons of family and friends. You don't have to disparage people who don't agree with you.
Lorax91@reddit
Fair enough. That's the same reason I'm not leaving, but we've thought about it.
gc3@reddit
I also think that scientists will think more. If they are not thinking they are probably not scientists. Many will decide not to move based on salary, etc.
GreenHeretic@reddit
Just head North! Canada would like you to come here please.
Mediocre_Island828@reddit
Gotta make jobs first.
avianeddy@reddit (OP)
Would love to. But not a scientist😞
lavapig_love@reddit
I have definitely advised a couple of working scientists on this sub to consider emigration.
We had a mod, long time ago, who went to New Zealand because they saw Donald Trump get nominated and knew where the country was heading. I just want to head back to Hawai'i myself.
GeoCommie@reddit
I’ve been looking at Ireland as they have an easier visa process for people with “in-demand” or specialized technical training. I work in network design and mapping, albeit very early in my career, but I imagine they need to update from copper to fiber everywhere
No-Salary-7418@reddit
NOAA expertise will have to move to Copernicus, or non-Western countries will have to create an analogous temperature dataset
Also, they should replace the ocean buoys, NOAA has the majority of them
Lawboithegreat@reddit
Anyone else getting 90’s Russia vibes…?
Soci3talCollaps3@reddit
Their own government is against their life's work. Against even the principles of science. And the majority of scientists work at academic and government institutions, also under fire, via mostly federal grants that are now completely unreliable, even with signed existing contracts in place and funds already obligated. I'd be looking to get the hell out too.
CharlotteChaos@reddit
Please take us with you.
jbiserkov@reddit
The other 25% are actively planning it, but say they don't, so as to not trigger the stampede and increase competition for the jobs they're applying for elsewhere.
KnowledgeMediocre404@reddit
Well take you in Canada!!! We’ve drafted a couple stellar fascism historians so far. Can’t wait to boost our power potential with every scientist, doctor, philosopher, historian, artist or non-conforming person. Come make our country greater with your presence and talent! :D
Jacob_KratomSobriety@reddit
I looked into moving to Canada, but it doesn’t seem like my wife and I qualify, unless one of us has a job lined up. My wife has a PhD in Biochemistry. I have an MBA, but mostly have worked in tech for the last 15 years. Is there something I am missing and a way that we could immigrate? We love Montreal and have been all over Canada. I actually just booked a trip to Halifax and NS in May. I’d love to leave the USA, but it seems like no one wants 2 educated people in their 40s, who unfortunately don’t have a million $ to invest.
verdasuno@reddit
If one of you can line up a job in your field, you're in.
The first job might pay less than what you're used to in the US, though.
Jacob_KratomSobriety@reddit
That’s the challenge. I lived in Germany for 2 years. Had a visa and unfortunately the company went under and I couldn’t find another job at the time that would support/sponsor me. That was 10 years ago and now, as a 43 year old person in tech, I can’t even get an interview anywhere. Agism is crazy and the job market is awful. My wife probably could find something, but most of the biotech work she does is not big anywhere in Canada. Her company has an office in Montreal, but it’s all sales and business people.
Anyway, there’s not really much open for us and I also have an 8year old Bulldog that I would never leave behind. I’m probably going to die on American soil and probably a lot sooner than I had hoped for
KnowledgeMediocre404@reddit
Sometimes it depends on the province you’re trying to immigrate to, some are easier than others. We’ve had a ton of immigration lately stressing our systems so they’ve been cutting down because of that, but I believe they’re going to start facilitating some kind of asylum for people from the US if this situation continues.
Jacob_KratomSobriety@reddit
I really hope so. It’s very disturbing living in the USA, where most people don’t even seem to care that things are collapsing into a fascist hellscape. I’m in a liberal area and it’s very telling that so many people are just willing to sit by and watch this happen. I am legit terrified that I am going to be sent to a work camp because I am a recovering addict and have a history of working for progressive campaigns. That and I am not going to stop protesting. I also refuse to just sit by and let ICE or whomever come into my neighborhood and take my neighbors away. It sucks because I have worked for 2 decades to try to get leftists and progressives elected, to try to change things for the better and now, I have to live in an even more right wing hell hole. I was at least hoping for a few years of non-fascism, before the climate collapse kills me.
KnowledgeMediocre404@reddit
It’s frustrating watching it as a leftist from up here, I can’t imagine how frustrating it is having fought against this your whole life.
Jacob_KratomSobriety@reddit
I know you guys in Canada have your own problems with right wingers and with similar late stage capitalism caused issues, as well. Anyway, I am sorry my government is threatening you all up there and I will do whatever I can, to try to change things here, until I have to likely flee.
Unomaaaas@reddit
You’re not alone in the effort, friend. I hope my pessimistic view of our country’s future is wrong and that we can change things for the better. I truly don’t want to leave my home, but if things are bad and only getting worse how can I not try to get my kids out of here? Anyway, glad to hear Canada is considering asylum for US citizens at risk, they’re good neighbors and I’m grateful they don’t hate all of us because of our shithead leaders and their puppet masters all coming out of hiding to let their freak flags fly
Collapse2043@reddit
It’s actually 3 fascism experts, all from Yale, all gone to Uof T. Timothy Snider is the most famous. He coined the phrase, “Do not obey in advance.” So nice to have him here. I listened to his 22 lecture series on the history of Ukraine on You Tube. They are all worried about raising their kids in America, particularly Professor Stanley, who’s kids are half black and half Jewish. He says using the safety of Jews as an excuse for oppression and deportations will surely cause a backlash against them eventually. He says his grandparents fled the Nazis to America in 1939 and now he is fleeing American fascism. So sad. When your experts on fascism are fleeing the country, you should be worried.
stasi_a@reddit
Lol your own scientists are struggling to get jobs due to lack of positions
KnowledgeMediocre404@reddit
Mostly because we experience a lack of investment as it’s all vacuumed into the US. If we continue down this path I see a lot more investment headed toward the rest of the west. We want to onshore pharmaceutical manufacturing after the debacle that was COVID too, and that’s going to take bodies.
avianeddy@reddit (OP)
Thanks for the kindness. I hope folks with the ability and desire are able to land good jobs there and flourish! <3
Smokron85@reddit
They need to leave while they're still allowed to.
ItzMcShagNasty@reddit
The country is over. It is now an authoritarian state that is getting its footing for how it will cull its enemies and declare absolute authority.
It is only a matter of time that literally anyone could be disappeared to a foreign concentration camp or extra judiciously executed for not going to church or pledging allegiance to Trump. If you have the ability, please prepare to leave, but understand that we WILL invade Canada at some point.
The gov't understands the future of climate change. They have decided that absolute control will increase chances of longevity for the country and ruling class, unrestricted access to resources and regulation will be required. It takes a long time to spin up that sort of action, and it has been set in motion
RentRepresentative74@reddit
I don’t give a shit. They are the ones who got us in this mess. They are the priests of industrial civilization. Handful of environmentalists with degrees doesn’t change it.
Randometer2@reddit
This is going to be absolutely catastrophic for us if true.
victorious_lemon@reddit
Is this what the average american scientist looks like?
ASebastian2020@reddit
Shit, 75% of all Americans are at least “thinking” about leaving the U.S. But nobody is going anywhere. Unless they are rich like the billionaires fucking everything up.
EcstaticNet3137@reddit
Those scientists have a far better likelihood of getting out unlike the rest of us. Plenty of stable democratic nations have pathways to citizenship for scientists, doctors, and so on. Plus companies are more likely to sponsor these moves by qualified people. They are more likely to go somewhere than regular people.
Layk1eh@reddit
If anything, this article encourages scientists and possible employers to do so, or at least facilitate the process.
nakedonmygoat@reddit
I've been thinking about it for a long time, but my father is in his late 80s. He's very healthy, but no man in his line has ever made it out of his 80s alive. I don't want to leave only to have to come back and settle the estate a month later. After he's gone though, I'll have no more ties here.
He's so healthy though that he might live well into his 90s, like his mother.
nandor73@reddit
Or unless they have no future here.
BertTKitten@reddit
I’m not sure I could afford to move to another state within the country right now. Housing is so expensive and it takes forever to find a new job.
Atheios569@reddit
How about stay and fight, you cowards. We’re all scared, but a democracy isn’t worth having unless you’re willing to fight for it.
“Democracy is not something you believe in or a place to hang your hat, but it’s something you do. You participate. If you stop doing it, democracy crumbles.”
— Abbie Hoffman
Ms_Ethereum@reddit
So when are you going to start?
Atheios569@reddit
What the hell kind of question is that? Bitch I’m doing something by talking about it and not running like those cowards. The whole asking idiot questions as an own is getting old.
collapse-ModTeam@reddit
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HazyRedRegina@reddit
I agree with you, but it’s more than that. Thing is, sure, other countries will reap from our “brain drain” but people don’t realize that many (not all) of those same people, too, won’t have the compassion coupled WITH that intelligence (or title, because not all those people are actually intelligent; they just have money) to stop the same thing from happening there. That’s the same reason why we have all these rich and degenerate tech people doing all this heinous crap now. It’s also the reason why you had people screaming MAGA up until January in Canada and Italy (sure, a little quieter right now lol — but they haven’t disappeared THAT fast). People with means will always try to leave the marginalized with the bill from their own stupid, evil decisions that they ordered. It’s not just scientific intelligence that makes you smart, it’s not just book-smarts that make a person a humanitarian or even a good decision-maker.
I just smh and laugh now because, while I could always be wrong, I don’t think I am. The reality is, they act like these people appeared in a vacuum. These people have BEEN in our governments, colleges, offices, neighborhoods, etc. Not everyone who “voted for this” is the stereotypical “dumb” class (by their limited estimation of what “dumb” is). Some of them are the same “brain drain” whose daddies paid for their degrees and have the money off the backs of the oppressed, marginalized and/or compassionate ACTUAL scientists here, too. Most of the true scholars (of various practices) I know — who do what they do based on passion and not money or opportunity or even prestige — are staying. And that’s, of course, anecdotal…but they’re staying for their grandparents. For their communities. Because they’re also marginalized and/or poor. Or even just b/c this is their home and why should they leave?
The “smart” people are not all good, and the “dumb” people are not all bad. And it’s equally as important to evaluate the character of the judge of who determines who’s smart, dumb, good OR bad, too. These same myopic perspectives almost ensure to me that the same thing will happen in other countries, especially those under westernized influence. That’s why I’m not so gung-ho about leaving — why would I not stay and defend my people on MY land when inevitably this mess is going to happen elsewhere and I’d be defending the same people rejoicing on the millions of marginalized good people who didn’t ask for this, can’t leave, and will suffer here just because they’ll get a couple of scientists out of the deal?
From my perspective—the only thing that the people leaving are buying is time. Which IS valuable, yes. But I don’t think you can actually outrun something like this, in the end. Covid should’ve taught us this. Climate crisis WILL further teach us this. It’s never so simple.
Atheios569@reddit
Spot on. The way I see it, what we are experiencing is probably the worst of all of the unanticipated feedbacks. Which is the inevitable strong men with simple solutions during adverse times. It’s no coincidence that fascism was on the rise after the Great Depression. Couple that with climate change and you have a recipe for a dystopic autocratic hellscape.
But to your point, yeah, good riddance in a way for a lot of them.
cmpxchg8b@reddit
Good in theory, but my kids come first.
faster-than-expected@reddit
Dumber than expected.
KernunQc7@reddit
No rush. /s
Seriously now, if you are thinking of leaving and can. Don't wait. Applies to everyone.
Sam_Eu_Sou@reddit
And they'd better leave while they can. Their mass exodus is not going unnoticed.
I predict that the next wave of federal job cuts (because they've only scratched the surface) will include more State Department jobs.
And passport renewal will all of a sudden go from waiting a few weeks, to months and then years.
Comrade_Compadre@reddit
Imagine being a scientist who studies sea level rise, only to give yourself kidnapped one day because your research doesn't align with the agenda of the government?
Fuuuuuuuuuuccckkk that
PrimalSaturn@reddit
I’m sorry but I genuinely bursted out laughing because previous headlines we’re like “scientists scratching their heads why bee populations are decreasing” and now it’s just “75% of scientists are thinking of leaving the US”
Whooptidooh@reddit
Of course. It’s the only logical thing to do.
Rossdxvx@reddit
Well, the country resembles Idiocracy more and more, which is a satire movie from the 2000s that turned out to be far too prescient. The feedback loop of dumb + drain brain = a country that will become more and more dysfunctional because the people who are capable of coming up with solutions are exiting stage left.
SopmodTew@reddit
Scientists are welcome in EU
BirdOfFiire@reddit
Good.
MellowDCC@reddit
Fake news
timelord-degallifrey@reddit
Wait, I thought Ayn Rand said it would be high taxes and socialism that caused all the scientists to leave? Atlas Shrugged can’t just be a shitty book based on the author’s flawed premise can it?
iammaffyou@reddit
Scientist here, can confirm.
Sinistar7510@reddit
The US will never recover from this.
battlewisely@reddit
We never recovered from COVID or Trump's "miracle" vaccine that I think probably is causing prion disease at a massive scale.
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mrpickles@reddit
What sources do you have for this?
battlewisely@reddit
https://www.google.com/search?q=prion+diseases+after+COVID-19+vaccination&oq=prion+diseases+after+COVID-19+vaccination&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOdIBBzYyNGowajSoAgGwAgE&client=ms-android-verizon&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8
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token_internet_girl@reddit
I wouldn't be surprised if natural checks on prion diseases have degraded at a higher rate since covid. Not because covid happened but because climate changes have increaed in significant frequency since the massive global wildfires of 2020.
mrpickles@reddit
From your link:
https://www.reuters.com/article/fact-check-no-evidence-that-pfizers-covi/fact-check-no-evidence-that-pfizers-covid-19-vaccine-causes-alzheimers-disease-idUSL1N2MZ382/
battlewisely@reddit
Well here's one https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10519638/#:~:text=Conclusions%3A,required%20to%20establish%20this%20correlation.
CreativeArgument3132@reddit
Lol what a clown take to take a walk to Canada
WanderInTheTrees@reddit
I don't blame them. It's very dumb here.
battlewisely@reddit
Do you think when Trump introduced his miracle vaccine as father of the vaccine that he also introduced prion disease?
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snertwith2ls@reddit
About to get a lot dumber
R3P4Jesus@reddit
If you have one bucket that contains 2 gallons and another bucket that contains 7 gallons, how many buckets do you have?
pm_me_ur_ephemerides@reddit
Two buckets, but what’s your point?
Thor4269@reddit
It's from Idiocracy
GrumpyNewYorker@reddit
Well you see, we’ve got this guy Not Sure.
MittenstheGlove@reddit
Just buy more buckets. 🤌🏾
details_matter@reddit
I thought'cho head would be bigger!
PrestigiousCrab6345@reddit
In 2022, 40% of basic research and 29% of the applied research in the US was funded by the federal government. That money is gone. Not gone 1-3 years from now. It’s gone. I know that there are court decisions at play, but many researchers rely on these grants for salaries, supplies, and operations. So, for the next four years, most researched in the US are operating at 29-40% less funding. They also have to tiptoe around policies and personalities that have nothing to do with the scientific method.
Best case scenario, they move to Canada or someplace in Central/South America. They can do their research and still be close enough to come home a few times a year. Worst case scenario, they move to the EU or Oceania. Either way, they will still have access to the corporate or NGO funding, along with the government funding from their host nation.
Scientists will always be pragmatic.
GalliumGames@reddit
I might not have a choice in the matter. I'm a meteorologist, the current administration has a burning hatred for the field, especially with attempts to disband NOAA. Given the accelerationalist destruction of the economy, I wouldn't be surprised if this is to make the property of regular folks uninsurable or too expensive to afford insurance so BlackRock and friends can buy up everything. Insurers can't exactly do the actuarial work if the crucial weather and climate data is gutted in it's entirety.
Given this, if the US still exists when I finish my masters degree, I probably will have to leave to do my phD.
cmpxchg8b@reddit
I paid hundreds of thousands in taxes last year. I will be moving back to Europe in 5 months, the wife and kids sooner. I will earn a lot less but my wife and kids feel quite unsafe with the way things are going (3 months in). Been here 18 years, had kids here, got citizenship, etc. Cest la vie.
Metals4J@reddit
You know, I’m something of a scientist myself.
Hilda-Ashe@reddit
"On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron."
It's just one of the consequences of putting a downright moron in the WH.
madrid987@reddit
welcome to spain
Contagious_Zombie@reddit
Hey other countries…. It’s the best time to boost your own sciences by helping displaced American scientists with immigration. America is on track to cure stupid with horse medicine and it can’t be stopped it with reason.
SecretPassage1@reddit
only 75%?
McCree114@reddit
Meanwhile China is making scientific and technological leaps. So many Americans are still fooling themselves that a war with China will be a joke because their army is "Great Value quality" when, if it doesn't go nuclear, I think the U.S military is going to get embarrassed hard. Part of what makes our military so powerful is intellectual talent in defense industry R&D. A brain drain will inevitably weaken us pretty badly in the military sense let alone with the long term economics and demographics.
New-Acadia-6496@reddit
The other 25% will run away when they realize they have to take the responsibility for all their colleagues who left.
phred14@reddit
The Trump administration doesn't want scientists. It wants artisans and craftsmen who will take orders and make for them the things that they want. Scientists have this silly habit of telling powerful people that their plans don't mesh with reality and won't work. Powerful people don't want to hear that and are adjusting the US so that they won't.
I'm a retired engineer. So in that respect I'm really a craftsman, not a scientist, though I've worked to have a scientists attitude. But the avenues for people like me are much more limited unless very wealthy.
Berkamin@reddit
Science is what made America “great”. We are self-destructing right now.
StatementBot@reddit
The following submission statement was provided by /u/avianeddy:
Collapse-related because a mass displacement of scientists would mean a collapse in scientific research and advancements with dire consequences to entire industries.
Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/1joelmp/poll_finds_that_75_of_scientists_are_thinking/mkr6u81/
ExistentDavid1138@reddit
I suppose scientists go to where the funding is
rdwpin@reddit
It's going to be hard to make a living in United States as a scientist for next four years. But I expect many would try to wait out this four years and see if it is reversed. I would not be surprised to see a lot of visiting scholar type work over next four years.
HardNut420@reddit
Same I'll be a white monkey in China fuck it
pintord@reddit
You can apply for a TN visa at the canadian border. https://www.canadianimmigration.com/working-in-canada/nafta-work-permit/professional/