Why are we always so concerned about a war with China?
Posted by weedwrestling@reddit | Libertarian | View on Reddit | 112 comments
Ever since I learned that China has not gone to war since 1979, it makes the whole conversation about going to war with China more of confusing to me. It seems like we’re more concerned that they’re going to outgrow us, but it never seems like they’re trying to impose a threat on us besides improve themselves. It seems like they really don’t care about expanding into other nations or perpetuating their values on others. I guess I’m just wondering if I’m missing something?
StanfordWrestler@reddit
Read about Taiwan. US has pledged to intervene if China invades Taiwan. China has pledged to “reunify” Taiwan with mainland China. It’s been on the edge of war for many years now.
bjran8888@reddit
"The United States has promised to intervene if China invades Taiwan."
As a Chinese, I'm confused: when did you commit to this?
It's not like Taiwan is a U.S. territory.
Do you want to do to Taiwan what you did to Greenland?
StanfordWrestler@reddit
The US government has made this position clear publicly ever since the communist revolution. Maybe it’s been kept hidden from the Chinese people.
bjran8888@reddit
Look, “strategic ambiguity” has always been in the American vocabulary.
China's side has always been clear -- Taiwan is part of China.
The United States Government attaches great importance to its relations with China, and reiterates that it has no intention of infringing on Chinese sovereignty and territorial integrity, or interfering in China’s internal affairs, or pursuing a policy of “two Chinas” or “one China, one Taiwan.
https://www.ait.org.tw/u-s-prc-joint-communique-1982/
If the United States wants to tear up the communiqué on the establishment of diplomatic relations with China, please break off diplomatic relations with the People's Republic of China immediately.
ProfessorPrudent2822@reddit
And you should be aware that the United States would win a nuclear war against China. We’d take heavy losses, but we would survive, whereas China would not.
bjran8888@reddit
You guys don't even have hypersonic missiles, and you have the nerve to talk this kind of crap here?
Come on, do you really think the Chinese are afraid of you?
ProfessorPrudent2822@reddit
We don’t need hypersonic missiles; we can park an SSBN right off your coast and bombard you with precision-guided nukes with five minutes’ warning. Your missiles get blown up in their silos.
bjran8888@reddit
One?
Are you kidding me?
ProfessorPrudent2822@reddit
We have 14, each of which can carry 160 nuclear warheads.
StanfordWrestler@reddit
Sounds like CCP propaganda to me…….
bjran8888@reddit
It doesn't matter, the day Taiwan declares independence, you'll know if it's propaganda or something that will actually happen.
squishydude123@reddit
Well the US made this pledge before Trump went completely off the deep end and started talking about invading Greenland and Canada, cause historically Taiwan didn't want to be 'reunified' with China and the US used to supposedly be committed to helping democracies (and Taiwan makes 90% of the world's computer chips)
bjran8888@reddit
“used to supposedly” is a good use of ‘used’. It represents the past, not the present.
They are the “Republic of China”, there is no “Republic of Taiwan” in the world. Our relationship with Taiwan stems from the Chinese Civil War.
Our unification with Taiwan is far more legitimate than the US territorial claims to Greenland.
I don't know how the US has the nerve to criticize us.
TheNaiveSkeptic@reddit
That one made me laugh. It would be a naked conquest of an unconsenting, independent nation.
The People’s Republic of China was the winner of the Chinese Civil War, as it drove the Nationalists from the mainland. But the existence of an independent Taiwan is absolutely fine, and the Chinese Communist Party’s insistence that Taiwan is their territory is as legitimate as the US saying that they should take over Great Britain since they won their War of Independence in 1776
You’re not going to find many people defending the US government on a Libertarian subreddit, and you certainly won’t find me doing it vis a vis Trump’s inane rhetoric about making my home of Canada the 51st State
But don’t pretend that the CCP isn’t 100% trying to start shit with Taiwan out of pure ego
bjran8888@reddit
You're right, if Taiwan wants real independence too, they'll have to fight a war with us too.
But I'm sure they can't win, even if you guys come.
Aren't you the ones who want to invade us and have a nuclear war? Come on.
Remember, what you guys went through in Korea 70 years ago, you won't win this time either.
To me what you are saying is laughable, you can't even send troops to Ukraine and you want us to believe you dare to send troops to China?
TheNaiveSkeptic@reddit
Taiwan is independent, any change of that would only be naked imperialism by mainland China
Also, did you miss the part where I’m not American & don’t defend its government?
Your CCP-propagandism is low effort
bjran8888@reddit
Since you think Taiwan is independent, why doesn't the government of your country recognize them right away?
Break off diplomatic relations with our People's Republic of China immediately.
Please do so, right now.
TheNaiveSkeptic@reddit
The US and it’s Allie’s recognized the PRC because cozying up to Mao Zedong was convenient geopolitics to help further isolate the Soviets. It maintains the charade that there is only one China because Westerners like buying cheap Chinese shit & directly antagonizing a nuclear power is stupid
I’d love to have the power to influence the Canadian Federal Government’s policies, but regrettably I don’t think that I have that kind of pull
Meanwhile, how about you say things critical of the central government in mainland China? Go ahead. I highly doubt you’re 100% in favour of all of its actions. What have they done wrong recently, what would you see them do differently? I’d love to hear it
bjran8888@reddit
I really don't understand Canadians these days.
Do you guys know Pierre Trudeau? He is Justin Trudeau's father.
Canada established diplomatic relations with China in 1970, and the United States did so 9 years later in 1979, because Pierre Trudeau maintained Canada's independence and refused to comply with U.S. demands.
During his election campaign, he declared that he would “no longer look to the United States” and would make recognizing the new China a priority. The white paper “A Foreign Policy for Canadians” led by him clearly put forward “playing a unique role between East and West”, emphasizing that the relationship with China needs to be based on national interests rather than ideology.
After the establishment of diplomatic relations between China and Canada, Italy, Belgium and other Western countries followed Canada's example.
Look at the Justin Theroux era - think about it, all the bad relations between China and Canada were because Canada followed Washington's orders. The arrest of Meng Wanzhou - from Trump. Imposing 100% auto tariffs on China - from Biden.
I ask again, how long do you want to continue to do Washington's bidding?
TheNaiveSkeptic@reddit
I hate many of the policies of both Trudeaus. You’re literally on a libertarian sub; we’re all generally critical of the institution of government; past and present, Canadian, American, Chinese, all of them
Everything they have is stolen, everything they do is implicitly at gunpoint (as one particularly monstrous excuse for a human being once correctly noted, “political power grows out of the barrel of a gun”)
Stop engaging in whataboutism. I will happily admit to “my” government, throughout Canadian history up to the present day, doing awful things. Go and criticize something about your government, or you’re inherently admitting that either 1) you’re a useless shill for them or 2) you’re so afraid of the consequences of badmouthing them that you can’t, or both
So which is it going to be?
bjran8888@reddit
I will naturally criticize my government for what it is doing wrong, but I won't stop criticizing you when you follow the US in oppressing us and other third world countries either.
Also, do you think that with the Conservatives in power, Canada will have a different policy than it does now? You will still follow orders from Washington.
I ask you again, how much longer will you follow the US? What have you gotten in return for following the United States, a 25% tariff? Becoming a state of the United States?
It doesn't matter, if you continue this way, this is what you deserve.
We Chinese are not weak like you.
TheNaiveSkeptic@reddit
What’s your government doing wrong?
Mine cowtows to American policy, overtaxes, somehow still overspends, doesn’t get good returns on said social spending, allows the Chinese government to do policing of its citizens within our borders, multiple MPs had illegitimate connections to the CCP during the last election if not more, they’re restricting our ability to own firearms, restrict freedom of speech, I could go on
Your criticisms of “me” are pointless because 1) I hate just about everything most, including “my”, government does, and 2) your boos mean nothing to me, I’ve seen what makes you cheer
bjran8888@reddit
It's okay, you can keep going. It's your country anyway, not mine.
TheNaiveSkeptic@reddit
Lmao your trolling game is on point, but unless you can actually make an actual criticism of your government, in your next reply, you admit that China is an imperialist power that frequently harms its own citizens and is morally in the wrong in all situations
Go ahead
bjran8888@reddit
You followed Trump's instructions to detain Chinese entrepreneurs, followed Biden's instructions to put 100% tariffs on Chinese electric cars, and then call us imperialists?
Fucking hilarious.
TheNaiveSkeptic@reddit
I didn’t do shit
Your hyper-collectivist mind can’t even comprehend that I do not approve of and had no part in any of the actions of the government that constantly extorts me
Meanwhile you actually seem to approve of mainland predation of Taiwan, and probably feel really good about China’s historical expansion into Tibet, the island chains surrounding China, etc
Yes, you’re vastly more Imperialist than I am
bjran8888@reddit
“I didn't do shit”
Will your attitude change the pressure your government puts on other countries?
There are only two possibilities
2, You're lying and you actually support your government continuing to listen to Washington.
We don't give a shit what goes on inside your Canada, isn't it only right that you get blamed by other countries for making these bad choices on your own?
You claim that all your criticism of the Canadian government comes from within Canada. Have we, China, voluntarily added 100% tariffs to Canadian goods? Have we taken instructions from a third country to detain Canadian communists?
Who are we to look at you as someone from within your own country? We are people from other countries looking at you just as a whole. Why are you blameless for the terrible behavior of your government, elected through the “democratic system” you are so proud of?
Or is your pride in “democracy” simply false and meaningless?
TheNaiveSkeptic@reddit
That’s a lot of words for “I’m too afraid to criticize my own government”
bjran8888@reddit
Laugh, it's our own Chinese business, what do you care?
You should mind your own business first. At least our government isn't an anti-intellectual asshat waging a trade war on the world.
TheNaiveSkeptic@reddit
You’re the one who brought up naked Commie imperialism against Taiwan, I’m just correctly calling it out as such
“America Bad” does not in any way change that
Come up with new material, this wasn’t good even before you started repeating yourself
bjran8888@reddit
What does this have to do with communism? Taiwan belonged to China during the Qing Dynasty and also during the Ming Dynasty, and there wasn't even a United States then.
You are openly threatening Denmark for annexation of Greenland.
A murderer accusing someone of parking illegally is hilarious, you guys should look in the mirror before trying to accuse others.
TheNaiveSkeptic@reddit
Because the mainland’s government is nominally communist
Irrelevant. The British crown used to own huge tracts of France but if the UK tried to land forces in Normandy to conquer it it would be a scandal
No, Taiwan is independent because the ChiComm’s war effort against the previous legitimate government wasn’t able to conquer it
I’m not doing shit
The government that claims to represent me, which I detest, isn’t even the one doing that & in fact is also receiving those threats
I’m not defending the United States government, I’m just calling out yours on its bullshit too
Taiwan’s people don’t want to be ruled by the CCP, and any attempt to make it happen by military force is naked imperialism. Care to actually challenge the main point, or just continue to spew random bullshit?
bjran8888@reddit
What I say is irrelevant, what you say is what matters, then in your illusion you, you always win.
That's it, that's funny.
TheNaiveSkeptic@reddit
Dude what the fuck are you talking about
bjran8888@reddit
Didn't you say so? My opinion doesn't matter, and you're demanding an opinion that I have to agree with.
What's the difference between your behavior and Trump's? Look at the Trump tariffs, that's unilateral cognitive dissonance in the US. You're just like him only exporting views one way.
So why am I wasting my time with you?
TheNaiveSkeptic@reddit
Quote me saying that
TRichard3814@reddit
More legitimate is a really bullshit position when neither are legitimate
I’m pretty sure Taiwan doesn’t want unification or whatever you want to call it
bjran8888@reddit
The question of Taiwan has never been a matter between mainland China and Taiwan, but a matter between China and the United States.
The day after the United States withdraws from East Asia, Taiwan will come to us to talk about peaceful reunification.
Stop pretending you're the righteous ones, you're not. Look at what you've done to Ukraine.
TRichard3814@reddit
I’m Canadian
https://focustaiwan.tw/cross-strait/202402230019
I think the people of the country can choose what they want, just as us Canadians don’t appreciate the U.S. rhetoric of annexing our country
bjran8888@reddit
It's amazing that even now there are still Canadians who listen to Washington.
Now I see it.
It doesn't matter, you can break diplomatic relations with the People's Republic of China and establish diplomatic relations with the Republic of China (Taiwan) right now.
TRichard3814@reddit
I live in Hong Kong, you should really get out and talk to the people involved in this
bjran8888@reddit
Yes, you liberals supported the Hong Kong mob that stormed the Hong Kong government.
You also support the Canadian Mounted Police, claiming that the Canadian Mounted Police were justified in trampling on an old Canadian woman on horseback, and that Trudeau of Canada was justified in freezing the bank accounts of the protesters, and that those protesters “deserved it”.
TRichard3814@reddit
Your country doesn’t even allow you on the app you are posting on right now.
Is respect for protests really the angle you wanna take here
bjran8888@reddit
It looks like you guys will continue to do what you're told in Washington.
So be it. It's your choice.
Siglet84@reddit
All intelligence points to around 2027.
thenewguy89@reddit
What does this mean? I’ve seen 2027 touted elsewhere but no idea why
Roho_Kitnam@reddit
Xi Jin Ling told the PLA very openly to be prepared to unify by force no later than 2027. Between that and the constant friction caused by PRC taking other nations’ islands and claiming ownership of international sea lanes, they are a regional bully with open plans to make it global. Vietnam is mad because China blatantly built oil rigs in Vietnamese waters; Philippines is mad because China constantly bullies them, including ramming & using water cannons against fisherman and coast guard; Japan is mad because China has claimed Japanese islands; and that’s not even counting the subversive activities around the world - such as pumping money into the Japanese communist party and backing the Okinawan separatist movement and similar acts. Check out some of the ongoing issues between PRC and India (it’s gotten hot a couple of times in the past few years). Bottom line is that with the U.S. hegemony, many prospective aggressors have found ways to operate just short of total war - and the Chinese have excelled at this ‘Gray Zone’ activity, even while they build their military for an eventual hot war.
statyin@reddit
Seriously, can you give a single creditable source not from US intelligence that "Xi openly told PLA to prepare unify by force no later than 2027"? Cause I struggled to find any other than that from western media.
Roho_Kitnam@reddit
Bro, stop wasting people’s time with this crap. I said ‘openly.’ He literally did it publicly, there are YouTube videos.
statyin@reddit
I can't find any videos showing Xi mentioning the 2027 timeline. I am sure he made vague proclamations like the military has to be prepared in case war is inevitable to stop Taiwan going independent. Giving a clear timeline for invasion is so out of the way for China. If you have the link to the video, please share cause I honestly want to know.
Siglet84@reddit
A lot of it comes down to China is actually shrinking in terms of population and economy. Real life lore on YouTube covers all aspects of past present and future conflicts and has a great deal about this if you want to know in depth.
RoccoRacer@reddit
100 year anniversary of the People’s Liberation Army: August 1st 2027.
boner79@reddit
You want to live in Taiwan??
StanfordWrestler@reddit
No I like California just fine, but I’ve heard lots of nice things about Taiwan.
boner79@reddit
I’m just joking. It was a comedic line in a recent White Lotus episode when the daughter told her mother (Parker Posey) she wanted to live in Thailand.
StanfordWrestler@reddit
🙃
emiltea@reddit
On edge? Seems more like a weird co-parenting situation.
THOMAS_PAINE_is_BACK@reddit
China has actually expanded and had military interventions to capture land since then, they had skirmishes in the South China Sea where they captured a few islands from Vietnam.
That's besides the point though. The CCP is very open about their intent to further expand and capture Taiwan, Senkaku Islands, and more land from other countries in the Nine Dash Line including Brunei, Indonesia, Malaysia, the Philippines, and Vietnam.
The prospect of expansion isn't exactly a mystery, they are very vocal about it.
bjran8888@reddit
How does this compare to the United States' territorial claims to Greenland, Canada?
THOMAS_PAINE_is_BACK@reddit
My view is that the United States has no legitimate territorial claim to Greenland or Canada. Most Americans share that view because the notion is ridiculous.
Trump’s own supporters are very confused by the wild rhetoric about Greenland and Canada. He never campaigned on it, because it’s not taken seriously at best and is plainly unpopular at worst. He doesn’t even have the support of his own party on the issue.
Just as I have the face to criticize my own government for it — because it’s wrong.
I think blindly supporting your government when they are wrong is ridiculous.
Why don’t you have the same introspection and critical thinking about your government? It’s the only way to improve things.
bjran8888@reddit
1、 “Most Americans share that view because the notion is ridiculous.”
Don't be ridiculous, you Americans personally elected Trump to the presidency using your own proud “democracy”. not one of the 7 swing states supported Kamala Harris.
You say “we have a democracy” when you are proud of America, and when America does something horrible, you say “it's the politicians doing it, not me”.
But weren't those politicians elected by your own hands? Are you sure that's logical?
2、Have you done enough wrong in the US? Am I wrong when we say that Biden - Biden is the most supportive politician in the entire world of Netanyahu's massacre of unarmed Palestinian civilians? How many Americans have criticized him?
You're not criticizing Trump at all for the wrong things Trump has done to the third world - you don't care about the third world. You care about your own interests being compromised.
3、 Of course the Chinese government has done something wrong (and something right), but that's no excuse for your economic sanctions, political pressure, and military blockade of the entire Chinese people - the US has nothing to be proud of when it comes to righteousness. Under Biden, you were the only country that openly supported Israel, and now you threaten to invade several sovereign countries. This all stems from the “American democracy” that you are so proud of.
It has been 7 years since Trump launched a trade war against China, and you have now launched trade wars one after another against Canada, Mexico, the EU and even the whole world.
If you have to “blame others instead of reflecting on yourselves”, then we will do the same.
THOMAS_PAINE_is_BACK@reddit
It's a plain fact, most Americans do not support his crazy new idea of annexing Greenland or Canada. His own political party's media outlet (Fox News) reported that only 17% of Americans supported the idea. I even doubt that 17% is serious and not trolling.
It is deeply unpopular even amongst those who voted for him.
It's not a policy that he campaigned on in any way, he only mentioned it after the election.
What's ridiculous is to view the United States as one man with one opinion. His own party doesn't even support the idea. Without their political support he really can't get much done.
I didn't vote for him.
Trump won the election with a slim margin of 1.5% of the vote.
No, he was not "elected by my own hands".
I didn't vote for him.
Your worldview is illogical. You only view individuals as one group with one opinion.
You've assumed that all Americans blindly support their leader and government, no matter what, which is just a projection of the way you blindly support your leader and government.
Yes, we have done many things wrongs. Which needs to be corrected, and that would not be possible if we all blindly support our government and our leaders. The only hope is individual agency for people who do not support what is wrong and work to correct it.
Have you done enough wrong in China? What are you doing to correct it?
That would be false. No one has accused Biden of being more supportive than Trump of Netanyahu's massacre. Trump and his party are far more supportive of the genocide in Gaza.
Many, many Americans, to the point where his political successor lost the presidential election.
Completely false.
I already told you what I am ashamed of about my country and what I don't support but you're still arguing with some imaginary "American" that isn't me. We likely agree on most of what I find shameful about my country's government. Clearly you are not capable of that same introspection.
bjran8888@reddit
Over the past few decades, the United States has kept pointing its nose at others and demanding introspection, and we have done enough introspection.
Now it is time for you to do some soul-searching.
Mind your own business first and stop being the country that the world is sick of.
monet108@reddit
That little part of the water that China is attempting to claim as their own is the single largest Oil formation that we have found since 2000's. Every major oil play has been producing for decades. Unclear if this is still true but the country with the best claim on that part of the water is the Philippines...but I last looked into this almost a full decade ago. And even then it was heavily debated.
It is my belief that we are past peak oil production in ALL of the other major oil plays. My understanding is that this particular reserve dwarfs Saudi Arabia play, when it was new. If this is true or close to true, the balance of power will hurt American interests. If Russia, China, India and Brazil do form an alliance to pay for hydrocarbon in anything other than Dollars, we are done as a superpower.
THOMAS_PAINE_is_BACK@reddit
Very interesting, I did not know that!
That would explain a lot about China’s fixation with the Nine Dash Line. It’s more about capturing resources than anything.
Silence_1999@reddit
China and India also have a border dispute. I didn’t know that till fairly recently. Not exactly warm relations all the time there either.
THOMAS_PAINE_is_BACK@reddit
Another one to add to the list!
Thanks for pointing that out, it looks like China has territory disputes with 7 of its neighboring countries. Wild.
I don’t think there is any other country with that many territorial disputes against their neighbors. It’s certainly a pattern.
Trypt2k@reddit
We are not interested in a Chinese empire. There will be no war as long as China does not expand it's borders or interfere with influence in western sphere countries. We do have a long fuse, we hardly care that China bought half of Africa, but if they bribe Mexico it will be a different story.
China is a threat because they refused to give up fascism once it showed itself to be a highly effective system. We assumed they will embrace liberalism and western values once they got rich but this did not happen. Amazingly, I believe it is kind of happening on the social level, but government is always far behind social changes so this is taking time.
Any war will be on par with the cold war, skirmishes in other countries only, the only full out war I see would still not be on Chinese or western soil, but it could involve a western ally, Taiwan.
bjran8888@reddit
As a Chinese, I'm confused: are you doing good in America?
You have claimed sovereignty over all of North America and a portion of South America, and are about to impose tariffs on the whole world.
Do you really fucking think you're the good guys?
Trypt2k@reddit
Good guys as compared to anyone else, yes. I mean we can speak our minds in the west, mostly, and even get to vote on our representatives. Our government even trusts us with gun ownership, imagine that. Good guys in absolute terms, it's hard to say on the human level, it's possible to be "better" of course, but probably not much considering human nature and history.
I love China and especially its history, I'm only saying that it could be better. Splitting up and allowing people autonomy would be a good first start, or allowing Taiwan to take over and govern the country would also go a long way.
PunkCPA@reddit
Fascism is a good description. Irredentism is driving their Taiwan ambitions. State capitalism, ethnocentrism, a legend of lost glory and foreign villains, militarism... it's all there.
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Negative_Ad_8256@reddit
It’s not a matter of China out growing us. Our economy in the US is based on consumption, that consumption depends on cheap goods, produced by cheap labor. China has been devaluing its currency for a while now to maintain business with US companies. Both countries have the same problem, as an economy advances it transitions from manufacturing and focuses on technology and stays competitive by innovating and offering a totally unique skill set and abilities. The US has failed to sufficiently educate its population as well as focusing on finance and business rather than engineering and technology. China has a population of 1.4 billion educating that many people to transition out of manufacturing and into technology is not an easy task. It’s a toxic relationship of codependency. BRICS’s sole purpose is to destroy American dominance on the global economy. The American currency being the world reserve, oil being only bought and sold with the dollar, the World Bank, it keeps power and influence firmly in the west, specifically the US. I think there is a lack of understanding on the mindset of the Chinese. The century of humiliation and Japanese invasion of Manchuria is still very much in the front of their minds. Call it pride or an inferiority complex, the US challenging their claims in the South China Sea, recognizing Taiwan’s sovereignty, they want to claim the eastern hemisphere as their zone of influence and they resent US presence and power there. They are unified in their nationalism, they see we are weak right now, they don’t need Sun Tzu to tell them it’s their opportunity to challenge the global hierarchy
TurtleNamedMyrtle@reddit
Read The Kill Chain by Christian Brose. That will orient you. (Pun intended)
Pandalishus@reddit
To your second-to-last sentence, read about the "Belts and Roads" initiative. They aren't interested in expending or perpetuating their values int he same way that the US isn't w/ USAID and other similar initiatives. China is explicitly focused on surpassed the US as _the_ superpower in the world. One way or that other, that road leads through us. Personally, I expect "war with China" to be economic (see the current admin) more than boots-on-the-ground, but 1979- present is the blink of an eye in world history, and world history teaches that war is common and disastrous.
FragCook@reddit
Money, it's always about the money. Look at how much the US spends on the military then look at how many politicians are heavily invested in the armament companies that get the most money. Then there another bloody money trail to all the former politicians or friends/family of politicians that sit on the boards of these companies that also influence a ton of money. So as long as china keeps upgrading their military or making us believe they're upgrading, they'll justify money to upgrade ours.
weedwrestling@reddit (OP)
This seems like the truer of the responses to me. The reason I look forward to hearing libertarian opinion is based on how anti-war they are. It seems like some people in this comment section are kind of picking their battles on what they deem propaganda and what they are willing to let the US lie to them about.
bjran8888@reddit
As a Chinese, I think your confusion is the same as mine.
Why is the US holding onto China?
I don't know why a portion of Americans pretend not to hear what Trump is doing. For people outside the US, what Trump is doing actually represents what the US is doing.
FragCook@reddit
This sub isn't what it used to be. It's now mostly people who feel abandoned by their original party affiliation. But there's a full spectrum of liberty seekers in here. From those that just think we shouldn't have to pay for a fishing license to the absolute liberty seekers that I think would like to see if absolute freedom turns into anarchy.
Sir_John_Galt@reddit
You say “it seems like they don’t care about expanding into other nations”. Are you serious?
If so, “google” the following; - “9 dash line” - “Belt and Road” - “Island building in the South China Sea” - “Philippines China Conflict” - “China Taiwan tensions” - “Senkaku Islands dispute”
bjran8888@reddit
Ever heard of "border friction"?
Americans like you can't even find one that isn't on the Chinese border.
How does that compare to the United States claiming territory in Greenland?
GlobeTrekking@reddit
Also, google China Gray Zone Tactics. More than any other country, constantly taking actions against other nations just short of the threshold for war in order to advance their goals
castingcoucher123@reddit
China and both Koreas having conflict. China and Vietnam. China and Indonesia. The list goes on and on.
SouthDakota_Guy@reddit
China is asshole
Own_Impression1901@reddit
You must have never met the Americans
sonickid101@reddit
Thucidotes trap.
Mandosauce@reddit
You might need to do a bit of homework, friend.
Id say if the entirety of the DoD is training, preparing, and generally expecting a war with China, and have been during the past several administrations, it's probably for a good reason.
ChickenVest@reddit
That's a bizarre answer on a Libertarian sub. So because the same military that got us into Vietnam, found weapons of mass destruction and led us into quagmire wars in the ME is preparing for it, it must be right?
Is China building up to start attacking other nations or in response to us building up our military in the area? It seems the primary reason we are there is because we made a deal to protect Taiwan, which seems to be the only credible target of China at the moment.
NefariousEscapade@reddit
Does it matter why they’re building up? If an adversary nation with know bad intent is stock piling, we don’t ask what their end goal is or “who else they’ll invade”.
ChickenVest@reddit
The US has basically inserted itself in the middle of a long simmering civil war. While I would argue that it is supporting the right side, I don't particularly want to fight a world war over Taiwan.
NefariousEscapade@reddit
While I somewhat agree with you, the world let Taiwan become the monopoly of chip builders. China takes that and then they’re in charge of everything technology. Theres no computers that don’t require chips and if china gets that, then they can continue expansion as they wont give chips to its opponents. We’ve recognized it’s a problem to only have Taiwan building them and we’re working on building our own, but we won’t be there for years.
Mandosauce@reddit
I'm ignoring the first paragraph, you missed my point. I'm not defending, I'm pointing OP in a direction of research.
With that, and to answer your second paragraph, start researching things like Gold Road Initiative, or "new silk road." That's a huge topic, have fun. I suggest finding some YouTube videos that summarize them and give a "so what?" Next, look into the Chinese Merchant Fleet, and what it's been up to. There are lawsuits about it going on right now, and you can find stuff that gets into what exactly the merchant fleet has been used for lately. I'd also check out their ministry of public security. It's an interesting branch that seems an awful lot like a private police force of their leading political party. It's more well supplied and armed than many of their official military branches. And all of this isn't even touching Taiwan yet.
I'd like to go into details further, but I don't want to get myself in trouble. Hopefully you find some interesting data.
ChickenVest@reddit
I'm well read on their initiatives and yes, their military and most organziations are the party's, not the country's. It is not a group I would want to be subject to for numerous terrifying reasons.
With that said, falling into Thucydides trap over areas half a planet away is not something I think has to be viewed as inevitable, either. The US has inserted itself into a civil war, and while the military may be prepared to act, I don't believe the voting population would agree.
Mandosauce@reddit
Again, I want to emphasize, I have no opinion on the matter of the U.S. getting involved.
But I do recognize the issue and potential threat - which I hope the OP now has some idea of. Or at least, he has some research criteria.
EvilCookie4250@reddit
seems like the psyop is working
Snacks75@reddit
A full blown war between two nuclear powers has never happened. It's a zero sum game. It starts out as a conventional war, as soon as one side looks like losing, the nukes are fired. The winning side fires nukes in retaliation, both countries are destroyed.
We are not going to war with the Chinese, or the Russians, as long as everyone has nukes.
Teembeau@reddit
Remember, there's all sorts of BS in politics, business and media. And I'm not saying they won't invade Taiwan, but there's various perspectives on truth vs statements.
The media exaggerates threats to sell news. They will never say "The whole Hezbollah thing is mostly just a bit of Iranian propaganda to win over Arabs, don't worry about it". And any "expert" brought on who says that will never return as an expert. They will say "there are fears this could escalate into WW3".
Politicians have special interest groups who bribe them. If you want to stop a country competing with you, pay a politician who says there's a national security threat about another country's products. Someone seeded a lot of the talk in the media (which the media loved) about China using AI chips for their military. In truth, China were going to use AI chips to advance cloud computing and compete with US companies. See also, all that talk about Chinese cars spying on you. Yeah, China is desperate to get the photos of the car park at Wal-Mart.
Governments also lie to old voters about things they will do. Like Argentina has spent decades talking about taking the Falkland Islands from the British. They've done nothing about it. But some old guys who cared about a rock with some penguins on it cared about it, so they got votes. Now, I'm not certain about this, but I think this is what XI is doing about Taiwan. Invading Taiwan would be an economic disaster for China. Every manufacturer would have their products boycotted. $1tn+ of exports would be at risk. Partnerships across Asia, too. But you can tease some people you're going to do it. Send out some boats.
If China are at risk of war, why aren't Apple leaving China?
weedwrestling@reddit (OP)
Thank you. I really enjoy this comment and I think it explains a lot
Classical_Liberals@reddit
We are the two major economies of the world, it would likely throw the entire globe into a recession if it was a prolonged conflict.
China is involved in so many supply chains, and too many economies have the US dollar as their reserve currency, along with supply chains to a lesser extent.
TK-369@reddit
I'm fine with China invading Taiwan, I don't think the USA should intervene without massive international support (and their military forces)
BUT I'm not in charge, and for some reason USA and China have been at odds over this for at least half a century
Free_Mixture_682@reddit
In his book, The Fake China Threat, Solis-Mullens explains the purpose and scope of the fake China Threat as follows:
“On the one hand, (the fake China Threat) serves as a legitimating device, a new reason for continually climbing defense budgets… and for the continued meddling… in the affairs of other states…
“On the other hand, the fake China Threat serves as a convenient scapegoat for the end results of the bad policies that Washington has itself authored and for decades pursued. America deindustrialized? China’ fault. Millions of Americans hooked on drugs? China’s fault. The Saudis and Iranians don’t want the Americans around anymore? China’s fault. Et cetera.”
“There is one element of truth to the fake China Threat, however; the existence of an independent China (or Russia) is a threat to Washington’s accustomed ability to do more or less whatever it wants, wherever it wants. But the existence of an independent China is already a fact. Refusal on the part of Washington to accept it will cause more than theoretical problems, and therein lies the real danger. “ (Italics, jw)
To remedy that “real danger” is the purpose of this book as the author explains in these words:
“So built up in the imagination of many Americans has been the threat China allegedly poses to them and their families, that the determined opponent of the fake China Threat must venture onto the tiresome grounds of so-called ‘Great Power competition.’ He must then make estimations of relative power that, as it happens, largely buttress the case against Washington doing anything other than seeking normal relations with Beijing… The purpose of this book is to put in one place and in concise form the arguments why the interests of the American people are not served by confrontation with China. The task is an urgent one.”
SoggyGrayDuck@reddit
The risk I see is that historically when a country has economic problems and an overabundance of young males the solution is war. That's why everyone is freaking out
FakeRedditName2@reddit
Truthfully, China and the West have been in a soft war for years, with cyber attacks, stealing intellectual property, posturing, and disinformation being the methods of fighting.
The threat is that it will go hot over Taiwan who besides having alliances with the US to protect them in just such a case, is a major producer of computer chips (90% of the best Semiconductor are made there) so they are a strategic resource we would want out of the hands of an adversary. Add to this China's expansion into the South China Sea (a major shipping lane), it's colonial (for lack of a better word) ambitions in Africa and with it's belt and roads initiative, and you got a recipe for conflict.
Basically, it's the conflict on who's soft power controls the world. The US/West dominate one with free trade happened along it's direction/protection vs one where China is dominate and they are the hand behind everything.
Crazy_names@reddit
Because it would be big, ugly, and bloody. It would come at a high cost to both sides no matter the instigator or winner. It would likely involve many nations, not just the US and China.
Springer0983@reddit
China has a culture of stealing intellectual property and making shitty copies, stealing military secrets, violating airspace with ballon’s, strong arming sovereign nations with belt and road, geonociding minorities and just generally treating everyone like shit.
China sucks dick and if we don’t discourage them, they will do the same to us
gumby_dammit@reddit
It’s a classic blunder.
Cyclonepride@reddit
Warfare doesn't just mean military interventions. While China's apparent lack of aggression in direct military action seems admirable, it remains to be seen if what they might do when they believe that they have the upper hand.
berkough@reddit
Eric Weinstein's talk at ARC from a couple of weeks ago seems relevant here.
ARCreef@reddit
This is a very good comment
ARCreef@reddit
Like the previous comment said. I admire that China does not engage in proxy wars, or the regular kind, or interfere too much in other countries government like the CIA does, BUT they do engage in bribes, and gaining things through debt and default of debt and the biggest thing of trying to benifit off the backs of others in regards to stealing IP and tech, especially military tech. They do view a war as being extremely counterproductive to their own nations continued growth and stability. The only question is, how will they act once they've grown the largest.
hblok@reddit
That's not the Chinese history I've read.
One China.
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