If you aren’t strong enough to survive under capitalism, you damned sure aren’t strong enough to survive under communism.

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At what point do they no longer differ? Capitalists use slave labor today. Does it matter that the money goes to a "free" market or a government controlled one? USA says it's a capitalist market, yet we are putting up protectionist tariffs to control the market. Controlling the market is not a capitalist market. If is not the invisible hand. It is the hand of the people through their government, very similar to Leninism and not so much Stalinism. Comparing communism to capitalism is really not even an accurate way to compare these. You may as well compare apples to moon rocks. Inequality of wealth is the issue with the radical socialist government and a hands off free market governments. Not paying for labor is going to require social programs so your employees can but your products. Look at Walmart, the biggest "capitalist" socialist program out there. Moreover, most people that live in a "capitalist" (which is 0 people) are not capitalist. They are the workers. Capitalist invest, they do not produce. Their interestments provide liquidity for production. So whether you're making $7 an hour processing aluminum in a capitalist society is a communist society really does not matter if their social welfare are all the same.

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somebody_odd@reddit (OP)

You have fallen for one of the classic blunders. Almost everyone is an actual capitalist in the truest sense. Virtually all people believe in the right to own the means of production, which of course is the person. Slavery is the opposite of capitalism. Humans are the actual means of production. Anything other than a truly free market is not capitalism.

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kiblick@reddit

But you have to apply my response to what I said

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not_today_thank@reddit

But that's not real communism, they want the communism that Marx promised. The communism where you take everything away from the greedy capitalist, wave your magic wand, and have abundance for everyone!

Marx told us after the revolution industrial production would go way up and there would be abundance, he kind of skipped over the how so I'm just assuming by magic wand. But I could be wrong.

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somebody_odd@reddit (OP)

My favorite thing is that they added a new type of property: personal. Communists have public and personal property, capitalists have public and private. This becomes a huge problem if somebody wants to use their lawnmower to make some extra money by mowing a few of their neighbors’ yards.

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AlphaTangoFoxtrt@reddit

No no no, you don't get it, I wouldn't be working the fields or the factories. No, I'd be a party member. My job would be to make decisions and run a podcast on communist theory as anime cat girls service me because I can't reach my penis past my fupa.

-every communist ever

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LoneHelldiver@reddit

I'm going to be a part time dog walker who teaches philosophy to children.

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sendindaninja@reddit

The ability to hold contradiction in the mind without discomfort is difficult for westerners...

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parable626@reddit

Humans will survive any situation theyre put into so long as it is within their power to get food, water, and rest.

Nobody just gives up.

I understand your point, but my point is only that a persons “strength” is a function of the situation theyre in. People only persevere if there is something to persevere against.

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Bulky_Play_4032@reddit

People give up everyday all across the globe.

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KayleeSinn@reddit

As much as I hate communism, I dont agree with this.

Your survival chances would be about the same.. just the norm is you gotta make due with less and when you're used to it, it isn't that bad.

In capitalist societies, most of these people cry cause they're not used to getting by cheap, like buying raw mean and veggies and cooking, even growing some of their own. They don't realize it's much cheaper to live in rural areas instead of paying insane rent to live near city centers.

Like I've done challenges ant got by with $30 a month and actually had fun while most of these people would flip if they had to get by with under $2000.

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Tiepps@reddit

Are you confusing communism with fascism and authoritarianism?

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somebody_odd@reddit (OP)

I am not and show me a communist state that is not authoritarian.

Communists are just socialists with balls enough to say what they actually want. Fascism is just the fullest realization of socialism where the line between industry and state has become blurred to non existence.

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Vancecookcobain@reddit

Communism is stateless.

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somebody_odd@reddit (OP)

Are you sniffing glue? Communism is an economic system that requires government enforcement. It is said that communism is classless, is that what you intended to say?

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Vancecookcobain@reddit

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somebody_odd@reddit (OP)

A society is the state. Regulations are the state.

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Vancecookcobain@reddit

Actually the state is the state. A society is just a group of people. For example when we say Western society we are talking about a group of people. Not a nation or government.

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somebody_odd@reddit (OP)

How do you institute regulations without a state?

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Vancecookcobain@reddit

You can have rules without government. Plenty of organizations have rules and regulations. Have you played sports? Does the NFL need the US government to enforce its uniform policy?

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somebody_odd@reddit (OP)

The NFL is quite possibly the worst example to try and use. It has a governing body that enforces rules which can include up to lifetime bans and forced selling of assets.

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Significant_Bug5959@reddit

Posts like these make me realize I’m definitely not a libertarian. Guarantee none of you here are miners.

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Vancecookcobain@reddit

Yea man...no government lol

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somebody_odd@reddit (OP)

What then does the governing body do? A government is not a country. A government is any body established to establish and enforce rules, also known as governance.

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Vancecookcobain@reddit

That's not what a government is. You are going to have an EXTREMELY hard time convincing anyone that the NFL is a government.

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buchenrad@reddit

The worst thing an organization can do to a person, without involving the government, is revoke membership and all forms of association. An organization can't take your property or imprison or hurt you against your will. They can make any of those things a condition of your continued membership in the event that you break the rules, but you always have the option to leave instead of accepting the prescribed punishment.

Governments don't give you that option. In fact, once you break the rules you no longer have the option to leave and you must stay and receive your punishment and cannot leave until you do.

So if a communist institution allows you to leave rather than being punished for breaking the rules, it can be fairly compared to an organization. Otherwise it's a de facto government.

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PrisonerNoP01135809@reddit

Don’t get me wrong OP is antagonistic, but I must say. “Common ownership” is the state. Who do you think oversees distribution of the bread?

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Vancecookcobain@reddit

In communism the ones who make the bread oversee it along with members of the community. You guys should try to understand the ideas of people you don't necessarily agree with. It's hard to have strong opinions of things when things are assumed and not understood

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AlphaTangoFoxtrt@reddit

In theory sure. In practice nobody makes the bread, because the previously prosperous farms are now centrally planned farms, which failed and everyone is starving.

Happened when the communists took over in Ukraine, and in China, and in Zimbabwe, and we'll, everywhere.

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cyrusthemarginal@reddit

This person you are talking to tried to tell a cuban national how great they have it in this very thread, don't bother with facts.

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AlphaTangoFoxtrt@reddit

It's not about them.

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deleted_by_reddit@reddit

[removed]

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AlphaTangoFoxtrt@reddit

In theory sure. In practice nobody makes the bread, because the centrally planned farms failed and everyone is starving.

Happened when the communists took over in Ukraine, and in China, and in Zimbabwe, and we'll, everywhere.

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buchenrad@reddit

"Communists seek a voluntary state of self governance."

What about all the other people who don't want to participate? There will be plenty. Either you go authoritarian and force them to participate, or you operate as a commune within a larger market, allowing those who do not want to participate to voluntarily trade with others. Those are your only options, and I suspect that's what is at the root of the disagreement about the "means to this end."

The communists conundrum has always been figuring out how to force people to participate without forcing them to participate.

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Hench999@reddit

And when people decide they want to opt out of communism and run a business in a free market way they will be left alone by the people practicing "real communism"?

People who think that the mean of production can be seized and equally distributed without some governing force are living in make-believe. The only way for a nation wise communism to take place is by force because too many other people who want to be left alone to pursue their lives will resist it

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Vancecookcobain@reddit

I'm not a communist. Ask them. I do find it equally interesting how you can't opt out of capitalism though.

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Hench999@reddit

Do like the Amish and find like-minded people and start a commune, no one is stopping you. Capitalism isn't some system a government puts into place via rules. People left freely to their own will engage in trade with others. Communism requires a top-down rule in order to implement. People left to their own devices will never choose communism. Every communist regime was implemented by force, and it took murder and brutality to stamp out anyone resisting and trying to hold onto their property and ability to engage in free trade.

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Vancecookcobain@reddit

You have to participate in capitalism for that....just because you decide to not use technology does not mean you get to have the freedom to live outside of capitalist restraints.

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Hench999@reddit

Opt out of capitalism into what? A system where people have their wealth forcibly taken because others feel entitled to it? You can have a system where people are free to choose or a system where force and brutality are used. Complaining that capitalism forces people to participate is like complaining that you need to eat in order to stay alive. LIFE forces you to participate and WORK.

I saw some socialist complaining once saying, "such a shame that people must work so much the majority of their lives in order to exist." That is the entire story of human history. Life requires work, and capitalism has lifted more people out of misery and poverty than anything. Incentives of wealth and prosperity create innovation, not government edicts.

I never see a socialist freely giving half of what they have to make someone with nothing equal. It's always asking for something from someone with more so their lives can improve in their mind. If all of the socialists in the world were forced to lower their standard of living just so the dirt poor can be equal, there would be no more socialist. It's always people wanting more for themselves because they are not willing to work.

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Significant_Bug5959@reddit

You are using reddit with internet and I assume a phone. Sounds spoiled to me.

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teleologicalrizz@reddit

Kids? in communist societies? They're less likely than you think! (they were eaten by their parents 3 years into the 2nd 5 year plan).

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freeze01@reddit

You seem to refer especially to authoritarian societies more than smaller scale societies. It's important to make the difference because one could argue that your argument is wrong as smaller scale societies have been known to work, even under communism.

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somebody_odd@reddit (OP)

I do agree in principle. In fact, most households are in fact a communist society, in that, the parents must work according to their ability and the children must be supported according to their need. The largest single issue with communism comes from the separation of those with ability and those in need. The greater the separation, the less incentive those with ability have to produce. It is a human right to enjoy the fruits of their labor. It is their property to do with as they wish. If they want to give it away volunteering they are free to do that. If they want to sell their labor for $1 per hour they are free to do that. If they believe their labor is worth $100 they are free to only sell their labor for that price. The United States was started as a communist utopia that did not work out. Everyone working for a common share provided little incentive to do the hard work of building any type of society. Even before the failed chattel slavery, people were robbed of their labor.

The only true stateless society possible would be a homogeneous, altruistic, theocratic anarchy. Without people governing themselves according to their same shared ethics for the betterment of society according to their own true best interest, we must have states and governments. But those governments are only legitimate in as much as they protect and enforce the natural rights of the governed under the consent of the governed. Short of heaven, that is not possible. People are by their very nature selfish liars who pursue their desires despite their own personal interests.

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BiteThePie@reddit

A Cuban here, still (unfortunately) living in Cuba. I often talk with friends about how people who emigrate from here to the US (for example) on rafts or other truly tragic means arrive in the US with NOTHING, living on the streets or in shelters. Over time, they manage to make a path for themselves and achieve a decent, prosperous life. Not multimillionaires, but a high quality of life, clearly better than the non-life and survival of Cuba. And then my friends and I wonder why the hell so many young people in the US complain so much about their conditions? Obviously, they should complain in order to continue improving the country's conditions; it's a right and a basic condition. But not to the point of wanting a system like communism (which they wouldn't last a week if they had it) and saying that capitalism has failed, when they are literally enjoying the opportunities and resources that the majority of humanity and of today's countries have never had. As a Cuban, I tell you: take advantage of what you have. You don't realize the possibilities and FREEDOM do you have. I don't have freedom, and yet I value it more and understand it more than most of those who truly have it, because they already take it for granted.

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Vancecookcobain@reddit

Cubs sucks because America has ostracized it from the rest of the planet not because of communism.

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somebody_odd@reddit (OP)

So what you are saying is that a central planned economy cannot survive without capital from outside the system.

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BiteThePie@reddit

I invite you to study the history of Cuba, not the official propaganda of Castroism and the PCC (Cuban Communist Party). I'll give you several examples because if I were to list them completely, it would take all day:

-Yes, the US maintains an embargo on the Cuban government, not the people, due to the nationalization of US companies in Cuba without compensation. This embargo does not allow the CUBAN GOVERNMENT to trade with US companies. The CUBAN government can trade with the rest of the world, its largest trading partners being Canada, Spain, and China. Even so, there are exceptions, and Cuba, the government, imports food from the US. I've seen many boxes of chicken with the American flag and saying "Made in USA." Even in the army, because yes, military service in Cuba is mandatory for all men: one year if you go to university, two if you don't. If you refuse? Jail time. - The Cuban government is the one that has never allowed Cuban citizens to trade with the rest of the world. A Cuban could easily import from the US, but the Cuban Communist Party doesn't allow it. Only now has there been a small deregulation regarding this since 2020, with so-called MSMEs (micro, medium, and small enterprises) importing products from abroad. Before, it was impossible; the government didn't allow it.

- Cuban citizens are PROHIBITED from traveling anywhere in the world that the Cuban government doesn't authorize. And in all cases, it is impossible for a citizen with an average salary (approximately 3,000 Cuban pesos = 8.5 USD at the informal exchange rate of 350 CUP/1 USD) to buy a plane ticket. The few countries you can travel to as a tourist require a bank account that is older than 3 to 6 months, which is simply impossible for a Cuban to do unless a relative abroad helps them financially. - In Cuba, independent journalism, independent book publishing, independent television, schools, and independent healthcare are prohibited and legally punishable. Anything that might contain a flow of information that the GOVERNMENT CANNOT control IS COMPLETELY PROHIBITED AND PUNISHABLE BY IMPRISONMENT. Everything I mentioned above is completely state-owned and controlled by the communist regime.

- Ordinary Cubans didn't have internet access until 2015, and back then it was in parks with Wi-Fi antennas and at a very high price. In 2019, mobile data packages began to be offered, also at a high price and with poor quality. In 2021, the government carried out the country's largest economic restructuring in decades in the midst of a pandemic and when the world's largest economies were entering a recession. What happened? Inflation in Cuba increased by more than 100%. For example, an egg used to cost you 5 or 6 pesos. Currently, an egg costs 100 pesos and a carton around 2,000, and the average salary is 3,000. The only thing that hasn't increased in price are mobile data plans, the most expensive being 500 pesos for 8 GB. But why? The company that controls communications in Cuba is state-owned, called ETECSA. You guessed it, private ISPs can't exist. Therefore, every time a popular demonstration like the one on July 11, 2021, occurs in Cuba, the government orders all communications to be cut off and a digital blackout occurs on the island, as well as an electrical blackout, in order to repress and subjugate the population without the rest of the world finding out in real time.

- Currently, all stores are completely DOLLARIZED, although they never pay in that currency. In the 1980s and 1990s, if you had any US dollars, you went to jail, with sentences averaging six years.

- Most people who work for the state have a miserable salary that's not enough to buy imported products in state-owned dollar stores or from micro, small and medium-sized businesses. How do they feed themselves? Well, with the crumbs of the basic food basket. Imagine if your government tells you every month what you can and can't eat, and how much. This month you're entitled to 3 pounds of rice for your house; you can't have more. This month you're entitled to a bottle of oil, no more. And so on. Not to mention that there are delays, and most of the time things arrive late. For example: you'll be eating the rice you were supposed to eat in November that was supposed to be in September.

And these are some things that quickly came to mind. If you have any doubt that Cuba suffers from a communist dictatorship led by the Cuban Communist Party, implemented primarily by Fidel Castro, and that the US isn't to blame, let me know. (p.s.: If there are any spelling or grammatical errors, it's because I translated everything with Google Translate.)

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Jolly_Job_9852@reddit

Hi there, thanks for the insight into Cuba. Could you plan a vacation in a country that Cuba approves of and then flee to the US from country B?

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BiteThePie@reddit

I would need to obtain a visa to travel to the United States. I can't tell you much more because I've never considered that. I know I would have to go to the U.S. embassy—currently, Cubans have to go to Guyana, because the one in Cuba isn't fully operational for those procedures—and apply for the visa. But the money required for that is beyond the reach of anyone who doesn't have a relative or friend in another country who can finance it.

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Hench999@reddit

Yeah, I'm sure it would otherwise just be a thriving utopia where everyone sings and dances in joy all day long, living in houses made out of gingerbread...

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Vancecookcobain@reddit

I think it actually would

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PunkCPA@reddit

Communism never works, but it's comforting to know it's always someone else's fault.

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Vancecookcobain@reddit

I haven't seen capitalism work either....usually needs to get bailed out through social safety nets to keep people from starving and old and disabled people from dying.

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kayne2000@reddit

Absurd take by a brainwashed communist

Communism has killed more in a shorter period of time than any other style of government. It's not even close. Everyone likes to cry about the evils of fascism and capitalism but lmao go study some Stalin and Mao. Those two are the real most evil men of the 1900s.

As for capitalism again lmfao. Capitalism in America in under 200 years went from no electricity to the freaking moon and during this time fought a Civil War, and 2 world wars. Capitals ain't perfect but fucking hell man find me anything that's come close to that level of success. I dare you.

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AlphaTangoFoxtrt@reddit

So what you're saying is free market trade and exchange is necessary for people to prosper. Glad to hear it fellow capitalist!

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Impressive-Fortune82@reddit

The word is: SPOILED

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Hyphalex@reddit

this one point has shaped my view in recent years

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PrisonerNoP01135809@reddit

I hate when people say this and the reverse of this. It’s not useful at all. The whole point is that they both kinda suck. Wouldn’t it be cool if there was some sort of third option that didn’t suck? Wouldn’t it be cool if we focused on that instead of antagonizing each other?

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