Marine Le Pen barred from running for French presidency in 2027
Posted by 1DarkStarryNight@reddit | anime_titties | View on Reddit | 391 comments
Posted by 1DarkStarryNight@reddit | anime_titties | View on Reddit | 391 comments
withoutpicklesplease@reddit
Politicians have to be held accountable for crimes they commit. Regardless where you fall on the political spectrum, there can be no disagreement about the importance of accountability.
Huge_Cantaloupe_7788@reddit
Of course. Also, if you don't jail all your political opponents, then the democracy will be at risk, right ?
Sganarellevalet@reddit
Macron didn't make the ruling and she isn't going to jail
Huge_Cantaloupe_7788@reddit
She is wearing anklet for 2 years and she is condemned to 4 years. Buy you wouldn't know because your only breakfast is propaganda
lgodsey@reddit
I wish there were courageous politicians here in the USA to combat the outrageous conservative corruption all around us.
aMutantChicken@reddit
only the conservative corruption? no other corruption?
greebdork@reddit
Yeah, but i know few countries where cases suddenly pop up against election candidates who become threatening to the current government. And there were quite a few such cases lately.
So, regardless of her political spectrum I'm kinda suspicious.
cocobisoil@reddit
I mean it does look "kinda suspicious" if you ignore all the evidence
aMutantChicken@reddit
she did ask some staffer to do an extra thing that they were not supposed to. She's guilty of that. Is it worth 4 years of arrest, an ankle tag and being barred from running? Even when others do it and the others who got caught got a small fine only?
what's evident is the application of the law AND the scale of the punishment is highly politically motivated.
serioussham@reddit
The case has been ongoing for 10 years and the trial started last year, roughly at the halfway point between two presidential elections and right AFTER the (planned) Europeans, which are her party's historical strong point, and the (unplanned) parliament elections that saw her party getting its best score yet.
There would never be a "good" moment for her anyway, and she doesn't deserve special treatment for her crimes.
nothingpersonnelmate@reddit
This didn't suddenly pop up, it's been under investigation since 2015. It was ruled upon now because it took a long time. The crime itself was committed between 2004 and 2016. I don't think the fact that some countries have corrupt legal systems wielded against political opponents is a strong argument for assuming that all countries have corrupt legal systems wielded against political opponents. And if the French legal system was corrupt I'd have expected them to use it to ban her before the election last year that her party was predicted to possibly even win.
aMutantChicken@reddit
and the accountability should be equal to all parties, but here it's not. What she did, they ALL do. She asked someone to review a speech and that person was employed to do non partisan stuff. basicalle "hey, can you do me one real quick with this little thing" is worth milions of dollars + house arrest? only for her and not for any other politician that's done the exact same thing?
either go after them all or none of them, and if you do give them the same punishment.
Moiniom@reddit
Sadly their are people who would disagree with you, when it's a politician they agree with. Probably in this case as well.
layland_lyle@reddit
From what you said I can only assume you have no idea what she was charged with.
She was accused of using/letting her assistants to do some work for her national party, the party she represented in the EU Parliament.
Moiniom@reddit
She was charged for taking money that was supposed to be spend on pairlamentary assistants and hiring people with it, who then spent little more time in the pairlament then I did when I was visiting it for a day.
The overall sum of damage might not be as impressive as in other cases which often don't get prosecuted, but the problem lies in those cases, not this one.
layland_lyle@reddit
No, the money was used for assistants, she was accused that not 100% of their time was used on EU stuff. EU didn't say a thing, only the French legal system did.
Moiniom@reddit
As per this article They where hired as parliamentary assistants who are supposed to be based in the European parliament. Considering one of them was 12 hours in said parliament in almost a year of employment, I find it hard to believe they where doing their job of directly assisting their MEP in the duties of their mandate.
And it was a European agency giving these information's to the French authorities making your statement of "EU didn't say a thing" simply wrong. If we where talking about idk Polish MEPs, they would be trialed in Poland.
layland_lyle@reddit
They are not supposed to be based in EU parliament, they are assistants to the MEPs wherever they are needed.
Proving time spent by an employee is not straight cut unless everything is logged, and from what I can see, it's all heresy and assumption. As someone that knows law, this is an impossible case to prosecute, thus it has never been done before, and politicians doing this is rampant.
The EU saying they are concerned says nothing about impartiality as they hate her for her anti EU stance.
This car is the same as you taking personal phonecalls at work, is that fraud or embezzlement, as you are supposed to be giving your time? It is not a crime, it is a civil matter, and stepping it up to a crime stinks of politically weaponising the justice system, just like they just did in Romania and Turkey.
megakaos888@reddit
Not probably. Certainly in this case. On r/conservative every comment is how "the left is banning opposition" as if she didn't actually embezzle funds.
dedicated-pedestrian@reddit
The categorical denial that she did anything wrong is usually necessary to undergird these sorts of otherwise nonsensical positions.
JonasHalle@reddit
I saw someone say that it's fine because every politician is corrupt, as if that isn't a problem.
Intelligent-Bad-2950@reddit
It's a matter of selective enforcement. If the ones in power only enforce the laws against their opposition, people understand it's not about the law or corruption, it's about targeting your opponents.
If you want to enforce against everyone, that's fine
JonasHalle@reddit
That's a perfectly viable critique, but the solution is to target everyone, not to not target the opposition.
Intelligent-Bad-2950@reddit
Sure, I agree with targeting everyone. Bit if you're just targeting the opposition, that's worse than not targeting anyone.
LordsofDecay@reddit
There's no evidence that only the opposition is being targeted.
Intelligent-Bad-2950@reddit
Come on now...
LordsofDecay@reddit
Great claims require great proof. Provide some proof that only opposition parties are being targeted.
Intelligent-Bad-2950@reddit
Lol didn't Navalny also get arrested on charges of corruption...
LordsofDecay@reddit
I didn't think that we were including failed states like Russia, Egypt, and Belarus in these examples. The implication in your post is that in democratic western countries that only the opposition is targeted.
Intelligent-Bad-2950@reddit
Yes, their failed state justice system taking down political opponents...
Our great democracy fighting corruption!
Universal_Anomaly@reddit
No.
If you want to argue that France is corrupt then bring French examples.
Don't drag in Russia and pretend you made a good argument.
dedicated-pedestrian@reddit
It's not even a good bad-faith argument.
weneedastrongleader@reddit
Mentally challenged.
withoutpicklesplease@reddit
Dude if you are comparing Russia to France the I really don’t believe there is any argument to convince you that this isn’t politically motivated.
AStarBack@reddit
The left is also targeted, and has already been condemned (see affaire Cahuzac for example). There is no selective enforcement.
Inprobamur@reddit
They can prove it and then I will support arresting the rest.
WitchesSphincter@reddit
"We can't hold them account for being corrupt, because they are all corrupt" has got to be one of the more brain dead things I see people say. Letting corruption slide is what leads to mass corruption.
Awniahades@reddit
Many such cases. But always happy to see politicians being held accountable first in Turkey and now in France.
Paul_469@reddit
It also doesn't help that people are quick to focus on that the political politican was on the opponents side. Since opponent's side polititian bad has to mean all my opponents bad hence me good. And this just sabotages all discussion about accountability.
Abjurer42@reddit
When it happens to someone they're opposed to, its justice. When it happens to someone on their side, its a conspiracy. 😮💨
layland_lyle@reddit
There was no crime on this one.
withoutpicklesplease@reddit
No matter how often you comment that there was no crime, I fear it won’t make it true… Nobody is being vague my brother in Christ. They were not accused of also doing other non-EU related work but doing exclusively non-EU related work. Appropriating funds for something different than what they are designated for is called embezzlement and that is a serious crime. Especially when you are a politician and use public money for it. Are you really arguing that corrupt politicians shouldn’t be prosecuted?
layland_lyle@reddit
EU never complained, only the French government. It was also timed knowing that with an appeal, by the time she wins (which legal experts say she will) it will be too late to be able to run for president.
How did they prove someone's work schedule. It's it embezzlement when you are at work and spends an hour doing some personal stuff?
withoutpicklesplease@reddit
You seem to have your mind set that this is some big conspiracy. I don’t believe there is any convincing I can do. For the most part your arguments are either incredibly bad faith or flat out incorrect. If you are not merely a troll, I would sincerely advise you to reconsider the way you consume information and the way you discuss this information.
layland_lyle@reddit
So you can't dispute, instead you resort to insulting me, got it👍
withoutpicklesplease@reddit
Whatever floats your boat.
sir-potato-head@reddit
I think accountability should come in the form of impeachment or be left to the choice of the voters. Otherwise it opens Pandora's box to excessive prosecution (which only escalates to more politically motivated prosecution when a new party takes power)
Just to be clear I don't know the details of the conviction, I just don't think it should be an automatic disqualification from political office, especially in this context when she is the #1 opposition leader and likely a candidate in the second round in 2027.
Randomname256478425@reddit
It is the strict application of the law. She could've gotten up to 10 years so that's actually quite lenient.
Funny thing is her party voted for that law( among others). She also herself advocated that politics should get a life ban if found guilty of something. It's on record.
sir-potato-head@reddit
Then she's just as stupid for voting in favor of that law. IMO criminal consequences and political consequences should remain separate (she could still fulfill her duties from prison for all I care)
qjxj@reddit
That's the crime she committed. Half of people reading this wouldn't be able to say whether or not it was a crime at first glance. Clearly nothing worse has ever been done by an elected leader.
InsaneHerald@reddit
Please go die off to russia already.
qjxj@reddit
Cope.
InsaneHerald@reddit
Cried the pro-crime cope champ. Pathetic
Vassago81@reddit
Is there ANY politician, federal / state / provincial / municipal that DON'T do this?
Sganarellevalet@reddit
She lied to use E.U public money to run her national party of course it's a crime
withoutpicklesplease@reddit
It may be a hot take but embezzlement is a serious crime. Especially if you’re a politician embezzling public money. Miss LePen even said so much herself and has called in the past for politicians who embezzle public funds to be punished.
Moug-10@reddit
Yes. I see, on French pages, people defending her and thinking the judge is a leftist paid to disturb the far right.
loggy_sci@reddit
Which French pages?
loggy_sci@reddit
Thank you
jorel43@reddit
This is the equivalent of banning an entire party though... The optics of this are that the law was used to remove political opponents. The question people of France I'm sure will be asking themselves is if this is real or if it's a conspiracy against the party.
layland_lyle@reddit
There was no crime.
The media are being very vague, but I finally managed to find out what she and 20 others in her party were accused and found guilty of.
Every MEP (EU politician) can have assistants that are paid for by the EU. She was an MEP (2014 to 2017) and had some assistants, as did the other 20. Her and the others were prosecuted because the prosecution said that these assistants also did some none EU work for her party, being the party she represented in the European Parliament.
She will easily win at appeal, however it has been timed that by the time she gets an appeal judgement, it will be too late to run for president. She was the front runner for president.
blankedblank@reddit
Agree, Ekrem İmamoğlu should be jailed. I mean come on... according to wikipedia he is accused of "alleging corruption, extortion, bribery, and money laundering tied to municipal contracts"... Or thats different?
hectorgarabit@reddit
The problem is that, in this very particular case, this verdict is a relief for the more "mainstream party". The National Front did very well for the past 3/4 presidential ellections and I think it had a real shot at the presidency. So the looks are bad.
There is also the facty that the syndica de la magistrature, and judges in general are very left leaning, So it doesn't look like they are very imopartial.
I poersonaly have no idea if she is guilty or not, I only know that it doesn't look good at all. Speciallyt following the cancelled elections in Romania.
silverionmox@reddit
It would look a lot worse to let embezzlement and election fraud happen without resistance.
withoutpicklesplease@reddit
You know what looks bad? If a person elected to serve the public is found by a court of law to have embezzled public funds to further her/his own political agenda.
By your logic the person who is chairing the party with the highest number of seats in parliament should be enjoying impunity from crimes? You do realize how absurd it is to not prosecute crimes because of "looks". Lady justice is blind for a reason, she doesn’t care about the aesthetics of prosecuting someone.
What do you mean you have no idea if she’s guilty or not? A court of law has found her to be guilty. She can appeal that decision and can lead to the decision being overturned but as of now she is a convicted criminal.
hectorgarabit@reddit
For historical reasons, (search for Le mur des cons), the judicial system in France is not seen as very fair, lady justice will turn a blind eye when convenient.
This judgement comes at a very convenient moment. Other politicians, Bayrou, now prime minister, were sentencesd for the same crime to a way smaller sentence, no inneligibility.
Since this morning, I see a lot of articles about the implication of this judgement, or how good it is. I'd rather see a detail of the rulling to ensure everyone that it is justice, not politics disguised as justice.
Randomname256478425@reddit
The proof of embezzlement are numerous in this case. There is actually record of people from her side internally worrying this will happen. It's beyond doubt that they are guilty. The rest is only the strict application of the law.
JAMisskeptical@reddit
It’s handy that you’re so easily inclined to dismiss legal judgements you dislike and uphold those you support, weird that innit.
WernerWindig@reddit
"The looks are bad". We are at war mate, so who cares at this point? We don't need any more Putin-Puppets. Playing fair didn't get us anywhere and they aren't playing fair as well.
Dead_Optics@reddit
Freedom should only exist when it is convenient
NaldoCrocoduck@reddit
Source?
Also you're saying that it is a relief for the "mainstream party" (which I suppose is Macron's), but it may not be the case. Macron has (indirectly) relied on Le Pen being his main adversary in the second round to secure the votes of the left, which he may not have had otherwise. So it may be kind of a bad news for his party, if they prefer having Le Pen against them than the left.
f9ae8221b@reddit
Absolutely not. Syndicat de la magistrature represent only one third of judges, the more right leaning union, Union syndicale des magistrats, represent over 60% of judges.
SM is constantly pointed as a bogeyman by right leaning politicians, but suggesting this trial was politic is absurd.
The evidence is so glaring that just reading one non-biased article on the trial is enough to convince anyone she is. To give you just one example, there are text message of one of the "staffer" asking the permission to visit the parliament and to meet with their claimed employer for the first time, this months after they've been hired.
The one thing that is a bit problematic is that the ineligibility sentence is with immediate execution, meaning it's effective even if she appeal. I personally don't like the idea of a sentence you can't appeal, but at the same time that was created by a law she supported, and her and her party constantly ask for swift justice against criminals, so I'm not gonna shed a tear.
hectorgarabit@reddit
If you compare with the same situation with the Modem and Bayrou, assistants parlementaires paid by the EU and used for the benefits of the party, the sentences are very different. 4 years in jail + 5 years inneligibility is a very harsh sentence comopared with other similar cases.
f9ae8221b@reddit
A few things:
And if anything, I think both Modem and RN should have had harsher punishment with actual jail.
In general I'm more of an abolitionist, but I think politicians who keep voting and calling for harsher sentencing should get a taste of their own medicine.
saracenraider@reddit
While this is true, recent history is littered with examples of politicians who get a second wind after being found guilty by the courts of crimes. Trump and Jacob Zuma are the two most obvious examples. Sometimes it’s better to swallow your pride and not martyr them
silverionmox@reddit
Ignoring it legitimizes them, so the choice is simple: uphold the law.
sunjay140@reddit
We shouldn't be selective of when and to whom the law is upheld.
silverionmox@reddit
Ironically, the extreme and alt right are the first to cry about "politicians are corrupt!" "they're all the same!"... until it's one of their own.
Remember: it's always projection. They would organize kangaroo courts when in power, so they simply cannot imagine their political opponents holding any other standards.
Pee-Pee-TP@reddit
It's rare any of them get held responsible.
NaldoCrocoduck@reddit
Of course, however it doesn't hurt when it's fascists.
eXnesi@reddit
Not familiar with European laws but how does this work? Normally when someone appeals a verdict, the punishment gets suspended until the higher court rules, right?
aMutantChicken@reddit
but you see, she's right wing and the left wing judge really doesnt want her to have a chance of winning.
AdequatelyMadLad@reddit
She's not allowed to run for office unless the verdict is overturned. Specifically when it comes to prison time or fines, yes, in case of an appeal the sentence is suspended until they reach the final verdict. But in this case it wouldn't make sense, because someone could simply appeal any sentence, run for office while the appeal is being judged, and, if they win, become effectively immune from consequence because it is significantly harder if not impossible to prosecute a sitting president.
mwhyesfinance@reddit
I could see this work both ways though
lack_of_reserves@reddit
So... What trump did? Sigh.
serioussham@reddit
The gist is that if the court find that the accused party presents a high risk of either fleeing, doing it again, or badly damaging public order or the institutions - they can order it to be applied immediately.
Notably, they did not do that for another of her colleagues because he's currently serving as mayor, and the immediate effect would have forced him to abandon his mandate. The judges thought that it would deprive citizens of their democratic choice, so he'll serve his sentence once the appeals have been exhausted.
Randomname256478425@reddit
It's the law that was voted by her party and others a few years back.
Djaaf@reddit
It's an exception to the usual suspension in cases of corruption/embezzlement/etc... that was added to the law by parliament a few years ago. That law was supported by a large majority of MPs, including RN MPs.
Similar suspension do exists for a few other cases, most notably for people convicted of violent crimes.
Kultissim@reddit
It was made so officials can't just run away from punishment by being elected (like Netanyahu etc) constantly til death etc... She can appeal the verdict but will still be unable to run for any office until a higher court rules.
PikaPikaDude@reddit
This increases the chances of the FN winning in 2027.
They already have a 'better' candidate in Jordan Bardella. He's younger and without accumulated scandals or the harsh Le Pen name. The biggest hindrance against his rise was Le Pen who preferred the spotlights on herself, but with her out of the way without it being his doing, he can 'take responsibility' and 'do what must be done' to run for himself.
On the one side he'll run on his own image, but for the more radical side their Le Pen supporting him from prison but locked away so unable to interfere. (She's got quiet an ego, so would ruin his chances even without intending to.)
The verdict itself will not help against the FN. Existing enemies will feel supported. Supporters will feel prosecuted and get more convicted. And the rest will see a new more 'clean' candidate or might even have a "Fuck you I won't do what you tell me" moment towards the regime.
hc_fella@reddit
And yet, letting them get away with it is also not an option. Far right ideology and especially its behavior needs to be nipped at the bud. We still have people living today that remember past atrocities, we have the US happily committing new ones.
France's legal system working as it should is not something to criticize...
dafda72@reddit
Letting them get away with it is not an option? If that is what the people vote for that is the very essence of a democratic election whether you agree with it or not.
Right or left this whole we have to stop the opposition is the wildest take ever and contraindicative of democracy at all.
“Nipping it in the bud” because your party isn’t going to win means the minority has effectively ousted the majority by any means necessary. That would be a lot of things but it wouldn’t be Democratic regardless of how virtuous your ideology may or may not be.
knuppi@reddit
Are you suggesting that laws should be applied differently depending on the popularity of the perpetrator?
dafda72@reddit
No I am not are you suggesting eliminating parties that you disagree with because they are getting popular?
Way to put words in my mouth I am pretty clearly for arresting her for her actions but I am against just outright banning a party because you dislike what they say. That isn’t democratic at all no matter what they are saying I’m sorry.
silverionmox@reddit
There's far more about it than "dislike what they say". You should know that.
They should be kept out of government just like the Nazi party should have been kept out of government in the 1930's instead of embraced.
dafda72@reddit
Well what are you calling for then? You are saying they should not have a voice.
For what it’s worth I disagree with them as well but I don’t support silencing them.
And you are saying I should know something that isn’t even a fact but something that is merely your interpretation. It is only your opinion that they are wrong and fascist.
The don’t think you can separate your opinion from fact which is something you should know how to do.
silverionmox@reddit
There's a difference between being silenced and being kept out of government. As it is, they're still taking their places in the legislative power and some executive power positions like mayors. That's really far from being silenced.
But yes, Nazi's that keep repeating that the Jews are conspiring against everyone and should be deported should have seen their access to power reduced, and eventually their presence in the legislative power curtailed. You can't keep making this kind of serious divisive and dehumanizing claims without coming up with serious evidence.
Ironically, "everything is just an opinion, facts don't matter" is an extremely postmodernist thought, which alt and extreme right parties usually claim to oppose.
dafda72@reddit
These are opinions I’m sorry.
FN aren’t Nazis. That is your opinion.
For a political party there really isn’t much of a difference from being silenced and kept out of government if you think about it.
Again you have me painted as some villain and you are arguing with me. You accuse me of moving goalposts and not staying in a lane.
Well you are making silly distinctions and speaking in platitudes.
You also seem to have your opinions mixed up with facts and overvalue your own estimations.
Dunning Kruger?
Clearly we aren’t going to agree. It has been two days now and you are still going on so clearly you are upset about something.
silverionmox@reddit
Absolutely not. Democracy means equality before the law, not selective enforcement. That's the tool of authoritarians.
dafda72@reddit
And banning a party based on their ideology would not constitute equality before the law. That sounds more like authoritarianism so I don’t really follow the logic here.
silverionmox@reddit
You're moving goalposts, we were talking about whether politicians should be punished for illegal acts.
dafda72@reddit
I never ever said anything other than all politicians should be punished for illegal acts. You are either moving the goalposts yourself or are not reading my comments.
Go back and show me where I ever said anything to the contrary.
silverionmox@reddit
"banning a party based on their ideology"
dafda72@reddit
Then what are you even going on about. I can’t go back and point to anything you said that is relevant. You are just kind of screaming at clouds here.
You just want to argue with me because you disagree with what I said and you want to engage in some culture war weirdness.
Are you saying you agree with me? That a party should not be banned on account of their ideology? I have said since my initial comment that Le Pen should be punished if she broke the law so what exactly are you upset about here so I can address it properly.
silverionmox@reddit
I am responding to your "Letting them get away with it is not an option? If that is what the people vote for that is the very essence of a democratic election whether you agree with it or not." comment.
I know that having a discussion about thing you disagree with is weird for the extreme right, you're just supposed to agree with the leader there.
Dude, you just said "ou just want to argue with me because you disagree with what I said". Pick a lane.
dafda72@reddit
You are responding to me by saying that they are evil fascists without actually taking a position.
I have a lane, and that is that no party should be banned because of ideology. I’ve stayed in my lane and repeated myself ad nauseum.
You still aren’t saying anything at all here just trying silly gotchas like “moving goalposts” and “pick a lane”.
What are you saying, since I’ve had only one position do you disagree with me or agree with me about FN being banned from French politics because of their ideology?
Bro666@reddit
Er... She was nailed for embezzlement, not for her political ideas.
dafda72@reddit
I’m not disagreeing with arresting Le Pen, but rather the discourse that the far right parties should outright be banned or that somehow Jordan Bardella should be blacklisted as well.
I’m just kind of keeping in line with the original comment that this will only help FN, regardless of whether or not Le Pen deserves it or not.
To which you replied that far right ideology needs to be nipped in the bud, which although I am inclined to agree with the means which you and others are suggesting sounds very undemocratic. Not even two comments down is someone openly calling to ban far right parties period because “that is how we get Nazis”. Well banning ideologies is also how you get Nazis.
I can tell by your immediate knee jerk downvote that you aren’t really interested in having a constructive dialogue here but rather an emotional based argument which to be honest I’m not interested in. If you are removing candidates or calling for the removal of candidates that may win the majority of people’s votes because you disagree with their ideology I don’t think you can consider yourself the saviour of democracy. I think that is fairly logical and clear and doesn’t really need to be expounded on.
Bro666@reddit
That was my first contribution to the thread. Your observation skills are on par with your logic.
dafda72@reddit
And you clearly stated your opinion and I clearly stated mine.
All you have is insults so far and have nothing to contribute here clearly insofar as my assertions. Are you denying that you don’t believe right wing ideology should be “nipped in the bud”.
Bro666@reddit
Please look at this thread. I did not say that. It was another poster. You are so hell-bent on defending this execrable person, you are not event reading straight.
dafda72@reddit
Ok but I never disagreed that she should be jailed so I don’t even know what you are on about.
Calling my position execrable kind of lays your intentions bare here.
That is like totally your opinion man. Got forbid I disagree about silencing the opposition.
You didnt say it and I never said she shouldn’t be in trouble. What exactly is your gripe with me ?
Bro666@reddit
You definitely can't read.
dafda72@reddit
Clearly I can.
Insulting me doesn’t make you correct. You clearly just don’t like what I have to say and that is fine but no need to be so toxic. It doesn’t make you look smart and it doesn’t make you a good person.
You really haven’t even said anything except I got the wrong person and call my position execrable so have a good night/day/whatever. This is clearly a waste of time and you can’t even articulate exactly what your gripe is here anyway.
Bro666@reddit
You can't. You should seriously look into it once the red mist clears.
dafda72@reddit
👍
Korrigan_Goblin@reddit
Banning far right ideologies isn't undemocratic. Because the ideologies themselves only want to exploit the democratic system to put and end to it and put the people under extrême duress.
dafda72@reddit
Banning any party is undemocratic lol regardless of their ideology. I am sure people on the far right think similarly to you and both of you are wrong. What you are proposing is fascism lol.
Wanting to ban a party or ideology and acting as though you are the saviour of democracy is oxymoronic and hypocritical at best.
Agree to disagree I suppose. Logic is generally uniform and the law should be applied unilaterally. I would expect a politician on the left to be jailed the same as Le Pen and I would have similar criticisms of FN calling to ban left leaning ideologies.
I do not think that is the case with you or this subreddit though so go on if it makes you feel better.
Korrigan_Goblin@reddit
Where did you get that banning parties was undemocratic ? The only reason we're not doing that is to have some power checks "if" an authoritarian government takes the top spot. Assuming said government is willing to play by the rules and not simply ignore them to be authoritative.
If you want to maintain a democracy, you need to have a set of rules that allows democracy to grow and to be nourished.
Far right isn't that. Far right is a poison of the mind that deals in false truths, lies, exploits and cheats.
You're unironically writing that banning fascism IS fascism, and I feel sad for you.
dafda72@reddit
Where are you getting that banning parties is democratic? If you want to maintain a democracy you can't just dissolve parties willy nilly. Le Pen got what she deserved by the look of it. That does not mean dissolving or barring FN would be democratic.
The problem is you call anything fascist. Is FN basically saying they will dissolve any party? They are to the right but still far left by American standards. Largely their policies seem to want to curtail immigration (which whether you like it or not is a tune many European governments are starting to sing), and being more francocentric.
If the majority of French citizens want to vote for that who are you to deny them that? What is Fascist? Are you the arbiter of what constitutes fascism? What happens when the pendulum swings and a left leaning party is arbitrarily declared a fascist and prevented from running.
I know I am not the sole arbiter of what constitutes fascism but I am relatively confident that banning parties and ideologies is inherently fascistic, and the only person I see clearly making those claims are you and those on this subreddit. Any substantiations to the contrary are mental gymnastics. Again, I don't necessarily agree with many or all of FN's policies either I just have a pronounced definition of democracy and would like to see democratic principles retain their values in western countries.
Please educate me though on how specifically FN is being fascist. Again, not defending Le Pen, just criticising calls to cull right wing ideology because apparenlty no one is self aware enough in this thread to realise you are doing the very thing you are setting out to abolish.
Korrigan_Goblin@reddit
I did not say that you should go and dissolve parties willy-nilly. I said that parties whose sole existence is to threaten the existence of democracy should be forbidden not only from forming, but also talking to the medias, to form meetings etc.
Why isn't banning such parties not undemocratic ? Because democracy is way more than just "the will of 51% of the population". Else, 51% could just infinitely oppress 49 and they could do nothing about it.
Democracy is the promise of a government that respects its people wishes, that assures the liberty of speech and of press, that assures that no one is above the law, that respects a set of fundamental human rights.
To go against any of these notions is to go against democracy itself. To actually employ means to subvert the underlying principles of democracy to promote hateful ideas is against democracy itself.
So no, protecting democracy isn't undemocratic. And democracy needs protection, because as it is a system that serves as check for power, powerful people (or greedy people, or both) will attack it. It can come from corruption, embezzlement of public funds, manipulation of the masses, lobbying, harmful laws, etc.
All of the above isn't subject to interpretation. Democracy is a set of core values that are fragile and need protection.
Now, you seem to be confusing fascism with dictatorial/authoritative. Not every arbitrary use of power is fascist, and not every ban is an arbitrary use of power either.
Fascism is an ideology with a somewhat codified set of rules that you can clearly identify. First, it is an idealisation of tradition, often creating skewed and false perception of the past to raise a sense of grandeur. It rejects progressism with fear. It prides itself with being patriotic. It doesn't like intellectuals and will actively attack "soft" sciences and do half-thought out law propositions. Fascism revels in the designation of a scapegoat that is the source of all problems, and stoke the common people fears and struggle to gain strength, even if they do not care about the common people fears and struggle. Said scapegoat must be at the same time strong and weak, so lies are fabricated to create the needed narrative.
This is fascism. Not just "banning things". And I hope that you can see why such ideology is a threat to the ideology that is democracy, because both can't work together since fascism want to eradicate democracy.
Now that the definitions are out... What is the FN doing ? -They were funded by actual waffen-SS and traitors. -They are racist and antisemitic to the core -They idealize "what is french" and exclude everyone that isn't part of their little club -They remodel history to fit their narrative (one of their leaders was condemned because his bookstore sold books that denied the holocaust) -They are anti intellectuals and denies climate change and pollution -They frequently attack the credibility of universities -They use the maghrebine (and black) population as scapegoat to accuse them of anything that exists, from horrible violence to cheating welfare -They stoke the common people fears and struggle but they continually voted against the interests of their voters -They infest the internet and the medias with alternate truths, lies, and conspiracy theories.
They are fascists, and they are a poison.They're not the only problem or threat to democracy that we have in France, but tolerating open fascist shit is definitely one of the problem.
dafda72@reddit
There are a lot of hypotheticals there and no concrete anything. Provide some sources that the far right - particularly FN here espouses those beliefs.
And yes, the means by which you protect democracy absolutely can be undemocratic. It seems so clear and black and white to you but who determines who is far right? It’s a boogeyman that can and will be abused by someone even if it starts off with your heart in the right place.
Again agree to disagree. The way this is written doesn’t even sound like you are trying to convince me but rather espouse your virtue.
I wish you well and I wish you luck however misguided I may believe you to be. Take care.
Korrigan_Goblin@reddit
We can discuss how a ban could (or could not if not enough fail-safes exist) take place, but I will not discuss the "potentialness" of this particular party to be fascist or not. I've fought them all my life and the source for all of their misdeeds and ideologies are out in the open. Anyone saying this is a legitimate party doing legitimate politics is either ignorant or lying
dafda72@reddit
That isn’t really saying anything except that you want to silence anyone you deem the opposition.
Korrigan_Goblin@reddit
Please, point me to where I said that. Direct quote me on that instead of doing lowball strawman
dafda72@reddit
You are ranting and raving about them and saying they are fascists and that removing fascists from democracy isn’t undemocratic it’s clearly what you are inferring whether you say it out loud or not.
If that isn’t what you are saying, then what exactly are you saying?
Korrigan_Goblin@reddit
I'm saying that you should remove fascists from being able to have any power in a democracy. As simple as that. And I already gave you AMPLE définition on WHAT is fascism which isn't "what I deem the opposition."
dafda72@reddit
You really haven’t been doing anything but ranting and raving to be honest.
You gave examples that were effectively opinions. Also, the way you are arguing I don’t think it’s a stretch you consider them the opposition.
Lastly I am unable to discern a difference from not allowing them any power and not allowing them to run. It’s the same thing and even if it’s not one will surely briefly follow the other.
I wish you well. We aren’t going to agree. Feel free to keep shouting into the void if you like I don’t really even know what we are discussing anymore since you aren’t really saying anything except vagueries about fascists. Which again, I’m sorry I don’t consider FN to be fascists. I don’t agree with them in principle, but I don’t think that they are fascists.
Good night/day/whatever.
Korrigan_Goblin@reddit
Wisdom is chasing you but you're fast buddy, keep running.
dafda72@reddit
Ahhhh insults. Clearly the hallmark of someone with a solid argument.
👍
Omni_Entendre@reddit
To be pedantic, we can probably find several cases in history across countries in the past 100 years or so worthy of a ban for treasonous behaviour.
Al-Guno@reddit
Had she been nailed for embezzlement (which, afaik, was about her aides working for her party, not because she stole money for herself) then any other politician who did the same would have been nailed and proscribed as well.
Bro666@reddit
She stole money. Whether it was for herself or for her party is pretty much irrelevant.
Yes. That is correct.
But I feel you are trying to argue something else here. Are you saying that because there are criminals that are not caught we should let off the hook those that are? That because some murders are never solved, we should let all murderers go?
silverionmox@reddit
Apparently you have evidence of such activities. Please forward it to the prosecutor's office and/or the press.
Al-Guno@reddit
Because the European Union is not a democracy, never was.
It should have been noticed when they spoke of a "sanitary cordon" against the right wing parties, as if political ideas were diseases rather than ideas - or possible the disease is those who share those beliefs. Such a metaphor it's outside the scope of democracy. And now we see those who hold the belief that their opposite ideas are a disease proscribing candidates in both Romania and France.
You speak from the viewpoint of someone who believes in democracy. European do not share democratic views, though.
Blarg_III@reddit
Some political ideas will destroy the system that birthed them if implemented. What better metaphor is there for something that exists within a system and whose growth will eventually kill that system (and many of the people within it) than a disease?
Al-Guno@reddit
The idea that certain people represent a disease is precisely an idea that destroys the system that births them.
Blarg_III@reddit
The idea that certain people represent a disease is an inherent part of fascist ideology.
It's fine to represent ideas as a disease, but it's wrong to do so for people. You can renounce fascism any time you like, but you can't stop being the wrong colour, the wrong religion, the wrong nationality and so on.
dafda72@reddit
People vote for the parties who promise them what they want. The ones with the most votes get elected.
It may not be technically democracy but the premise itself is democratic.
And yes if believing in democracy is silly then I’ll be silly all day. Banning ideologies is unironically how you get to fascism more quickly, deprive people of the right to vote in their interests and they will find alternative avenues.
Depriving people of political parties that represent their interests is absurd. If the shit they spout is outlandish and hateful the people will simply not elect them. Anything else is fascism lite, the beginning of totalitarianism, and any other number of things that are just downright bad from a western perspective.
That is where the real ugly shit begins.
hc_fella@reddit
People vote for embezzling public funds? Do they vote to limit their own democratic power in the future?
The reason why far right politics are dangerous is because they use false populist rhetoric to instill fear in a population that then gives the new controlling party the power to install authoritarian regimes. Their hateful messaging and policies are not necessarily crimes, but their corruption and undermining of democratic institutions in favour of foreign invading powers definitely are!
dafda72@reddit
I think I was pretty clear in that Le Pen probably deserves this and if she does should be punished. My issue lies with neutering an entire party simply because you don’t like their ideology and that they are becoming more popular and considering yourself the saviour of democracy.
Sounds oxymoronic and hypocritical. That is my assertion plain and simple.
hc_fella@reddit
It's a classical example of the paradox of intolerance. Being tolerant of intolerance, allows for intolerance to dominate. They are undemocratic in principle, getting the vote once to close the doors to power behind them. The US has shown that its democratic institutions are easily toppled. I hope France's (and other European nations') institutions are a little more robust...
dafda72@reddit
What you paradox of intolerance is failing to mention is that it is incongruent with democracy or democratic principles at all and can easily be adopted by those who seek to employ these as a mechanism to attain their own breed of despotism. If the people agree with her values and policies and the majority wishes to elect them then negating that would be contraindicative of democratic principles.
You are proposing fascism lite because you disagree with their ideology. For what it is worth I disagree with Le Pen as well but that doesn't mean that I am supportive of abolishing/barring FN as a whole. It will lead to the political equivalent of apartheid, which will almost surely end in violence.
Conversely, if you are forcing ideology on the majority of voters then they could then claim that you are in fact being intolerant to the majority and employ the very same principle you are using to justify your actions to overthrow your political establishment and install their own. Difference is now there is a precedent.
So agree to disagree. The means you are suggesting to employ will invariable be used against you.
As for America, they voted for it. To protest it is one thing to actively call for violence or political upheaval would be your own little January 6th, which I think most people can collectively agree was a bad thing.
Blarg_III@reddit
If it comes to a choice between Fascism and Fascism lite, one is the obvious pick.
It comes down, I think, to a difference in what people value about democracy.
Some believe that the democratic process itself is moral and democracy is the most just form of government, and so a democracy being able to vote to end democracy is not congruent with what they value about it.
Others believe that the outcomes of democracy are just and so if the people vote to no longer be democratic, the moral position would be to abolish democracy.
The two positions are not really reconcilable.
dafda72@reddit
I don’t think FN is fascist. You do though and you are now mask off claiming you are aspiring to fascism lite. You will make the very thing you are trying to avoid come to be lol. I don’t think we are ever going to agree here because are too wrapped up in your own virtue.
You are openly saying you don’t want democracy and are championing a breed of totalitarianism while acting like you have the moral ground. It’s concerning.
I wish you well but we are done here. Agree to disagree.
AdmirableSelection81@reddit
This was only made possible by the center left/center right liberals destroying european societies with open immigration policies. They wouldn't exist otherwise.
The only exception is Denmark who had the forsight to clamp down on immigration early.
djhab@reddit
It's a class war not a race war
AdmirableSelection81@reddit
This is from the Economist:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FtTwntsaEAA2wZD?format=png&name=small
Funny thing about Sweden... unlike Denmark, they started to do things like ban data collection by national origin, while Denmark was truly open and honest about this stuff.
lalabera@reddit
Fuck denmark, they literally confiscate belongings from refugees and set up camps.
AdmirableSelection81@reddit
Exactly, that's why Denmark is a much more stable society than Germany or France.
lalabera@reddit
I hope trump bombs them lol, and i’m not even a magat
silverionmox@reddit
And without conviction she/they would still spin that as being unfairly prosecuted, and using her acquittal as proof.
We have to stand up for what is right. It's the only thing that can make them shut up, they only care about power.
AliceInMyDreams@reddit
I mean, I agree that it was a good thing that she was condemned, in terms of keeping politicians accountable and preventing blatant corruption.
But I also think it will help the FN (even though it would be a crushing blow for the PS or LR if it happened to them), both from the martyrdom spin and from Bardella straight up having better chances. Oc didn't mention it, but something as simple as him being a man may only matter for the most conservative of the French electorate, but any percent gained may make the difference in a presidential race which is shaping up to be tight. It also means that there won't be power struggles holding them down while they prepare for the election.
Still, only time will tell.
silverionmox@reddit
They'd pose as martyrs either way, and I don't know if Bardella will do it better. Le Pen if pretty much furniture at this point and looks harmless, Bardella does not have that advantage.
Agreed. We simply can't predict that reliably.
Mundane_Emu8921@reddit
Nothing will help against FN except for addressing the root economic and social issues that cause anger and resentment.
This is true for all the similar far-right parties gaining ground around the world.
At this rate, FN will win the presidency in 1-2 decades.
lalabera@reddit
No they won’t
Cooldude101013@reddit
Everyone said that about trump in 2015, 2016, 2023 and 2024 and look what happened, he won. Don’t make the same mistakes.
lalabera@reddit
Trump cheated, and republicans in many states are losing badly in local elections rn.
Cooldude101013@reddit
Alright, I warned you .
Mundane_Emu8921@reddit
They already are.
lalabera@reddit
Not really.
Cooldude101013@reddit
Yeah, they are
Mundane_Emu8921@reddit
Which is sad because all these far-right figures would be pretty easy to beat.
bordain_de_putel@reddit
Where did you read she was going to prison?
AliceInMyDreams@reddit
She got 4 years of jail, 2 of which were suspended. But you are right that she will serve time from her home, not actually go to prison.
Iraqi_Weeb99@reddit
Nothing will change, they will find another far-right anti-immigration leader, and they will win a lot of votes due to how the government is soft on immigration.
Mein_Bergkamp@reddit
This wasn't done to stop the party, it was done because she broke the law.
AgentBorn4289@reddit
Such a weird coincidence that all these right wing opposition leaders are committing vaguely defined financial crimes. Extra weird that these crimes all happen to be just severe enough to prevent them from running for office but not severe enough for serious jail time.
AStarBack@reddit
She also has been condemned to jail time. The cap is 5 years of ineligibility by law. And the left has already been condemned (see affaire Cahuzac for example).
Mein_Bergkamp@reddit
'All these'?
As opposed to the fact no other politician has ever committed financial irregualrities.
Good effort but the mental gymnastics there are a bit beyond you
SZEfdf21@reddit
That's not why Le Pen was arrested. Politics and justice are 2 seperate entities in France.
Blarg_III@reddit
The two are never inseparable.
SZEfdf21@reddit
And still justice needs to pretend politics doesn't exist when doing its own duties, and the other way around as well (the legislative branch needs to be able to make an assessment on what laws will be best regardless of what is already in place).
AgentBorn4289@reddit
You might be the most naive person on earth. Or you’re just lying.
SZEfdf21@reddit
How so?
Entfly@reddit
Disagree. Le Pen was a solid speaker and leader even if she was a piece of shit. They'll obviously run anyway but I think they had a good chance of winning with her, they'll struggle to make the run offs now
NaldoCrocoduck@reddit
The French government is not "soft on immigration". This is a common falsehood used by the far right.
On the contrary, relative to its population, France has one of the lowest amount of immigrants among Western European countries.
AgentBorn4289@reddit
Akshully, South Africa isn’t poor. It’s the richest country in Africa!
fenceingmadman@reddit
Someone's never been to France in the last few years
silverionmox@reddit
So your problem is brown people, not immigration. Thanks for the info I suppose.
lalabera@reddit
Pretty much every person spouting anti immigrant bs on the main euro subs.
binary_spaniard@reddit
France with Macron has a more restrictive immigration policy than Meloni in Italy (since Sarkozy actually), but there are three factors:
NaldoCrocoduck@reddit
Sorry I just live there so I've only been a few times in the last few years XD
Philantroll@reddit
So your data is personnal little trip, okay.
Mundane_Emu8921@reddit
Yeah. A lot of people in the West for some reason dont comprehend that these parties are popular because people agree with them on issues.
podfather2000@reddit
I don't know what you guys are talking about. Literally, every major political party in Europe is taking a harder stance on immigration.
azriel777@reddit
All lip service. Look at Germany, people voted for the CDU because they said they would do something about immigration, not even 24 hours after winning they renegaded on it and said immigrants would still be coming in. They will happily say they will do something about it, and actually do nothing about it.
lalabera@reddit
Immigration is an issue for idiots to get fired up over
Mundane_Emu8921@reddit
It doesn’t matter if they idiots. They still vote.
yaxkongisking12@reddit
Almost every statistic proves that Europe as a whole is pretty socially left wing except on the key issue of immigration, especially when many of those immigrants happen to be Islamic fundamentalists who refuse to integrate. On the other hand, most right wing parties have a Putin problem.
lalabera@reddit
Sugarcoating for “euros are racist but want liberal laws for themselves”
AdmirableSelection81@reddit
It seems like Denmark was the only western country who had the foresight to clamp down on immigration before rightwing populists could get popular there.
lalabera@reddit
They’re still getting a populist surge lol.
lalabera@reddit
Too bad, she got what she deserved.
silverionmox@reddit
Politicians are not above the law, and corruption will be punished.
Inprobamur@reddit
That crime is good?
lalabera@reddit
Immigration is only an issue for idiots.
condor1985@reddit
And that's absolutely fine provided that leader hasn't been found guilty of embezzlement
silverionmox@reddit
That's not even relevant: politicians are not above the law, and corruption should be punished. Two reasons to celebrate.
Buy_from_EU-@reddit
Noone has issues with her ideas. People can vote whatever they want, but politicians can't embezzle public funds
AdmirableSelection81@reddit
Romania cancelled presidential elections because a rightwing populist was set to do well in the elections. First the Chinese/Tik Tok was blamed, then Russian interference was given as the reason. Liberal democracy just can't cope with the fact that liberal democracy is faltering and it has to protect itself by denying the will of the people.
FennecAround@reddit
This is an incredibly disingenuous mischaracterization.
Russias real involvement was always the man reason.
Romanians are also more acute ti Russian manipulation given their history and that of their neighbors in Moldova and Ukraine.
zootbot@reddit
The issue I have with Romania is that they did not prove the allegations in court before banning georgescu. Deeply undemocratic move
FennecAround@reddit
Agreed. However, its far more complicated and muddy than the other commenter claimed.
bradicality@reddit
More context:
https://www.dropsitenews.com/p/romania-calin-georgescu-voided-tiktok-election
FennecAround@reddit
Lmao, imagine unironically citing dropsitenews.
Buy_from_EU-@reddit
Again, similar case. Georgulescu reported 0 investment to his campaign and reported to the authorities that he covered his campaign by his own pocket. The authorities found donations to his account by Russian sources. He broke the law by hiding those donations and the donations came from Russia.
Iraqi_Weeb99@reddit
You will get banned in so many reddit subs for agreeing with her on immigration
Dunkleosteus666@reddit
No ones should care if shes anti or pro immigration. She issue is shes paid by Putin.
Mundane_Emu8921@reddit
No she isn’t.
Dunkleosteus666@reddit
https://www.legorafi.fr/2025/03/31/vladimir-poutine-offre-lasile-politique-a-marine-le-pen/
hmm. weird.
Sleek_@reddit
Beware le Gorafi is like the Onion it's a satirical site. This is not a true headline, period.
FennecAround@reddit
https://www.lemonde.fr/en/france/article/2023/09/22/le-pen-s-party-repays-cumbersome-russian-loan_6138411_7.html
Her party took Russian money and only disclosed it after it was uncovered by the press.
They then tried to play off that it was a ‘ loan.’
Lmao
Dunkleosteus666@reddit
oops. Reality and Satire are converging too much in these times.
alecsgz@reddit
You live in Iraq?
Buy_from_EU-@reddit
I'm not super familiar with her ideas on migration. I know she's funded by Putin so I don't really care for her positions, I already know she's the enemy.
eewaaa@reddit
Well, I can name a few people who have issues with her ideas. But you're right, that's not the point, and it is a positive that the people that would have voted for her have alternatives that aren't jailed or barred from running
Inprobamur@reddit
That's fine, at least the new one will not be a criminal.
elvss4@reddit
So should we just do nothing?
r0w33@reddit
A good ruling is a good ruling. It's good to punish people who are guilty of embezzlement. Especially today when so of the rich and powerful are held to account.
cloud_t@reddit
And it opens people's eyes to the corruption of particular parties. In order for them to brush off these stains on reputation, they need to rehash their branding and that work by itself is putting the brakes on their aggressive populism.
So it is great that not only people are accountable individually, but that those supporting these people have to do better OR are penalized by that support.
Sprintzer@reddit
I don’t care if this “benefits the far right” given Le Pen always was a popular but not quite electable candidate and a stronger candidate will now come to the forefront.
Politicians guilty of crimes should be held accountable. If the crime is even remotely serious they should receive punishment according to the law. If the law calls for a temporary or permanent ban from certain elections, by all means enforce that.
I would support a temporary election ban on my favorite politician if they were found guilty of a serious crime.
No one is above the law. It’s that simple.
mwhyesfinance@reddit
Unless you’re pardoned of course
HatesAvgRedditors@reddit
Is there a such thing as the right to you guys or do you just call everyone far right to try and delegitimize them and their opinions?
LeonardoDoujinshi-@reddit
are you trying to say that Le Pen and RN isn’t far right?
Avenflar@reddit
It's funny seeing all the bots and activists whining about "dEStructiOn of DemOCRacy" and other trifles as Le Pen is hit with the harsher sentences she herself and her party voted for and loudly campaigned for.
And it's only 4 years of barring. A couple of years ago she was claiming that every corrupt politicians should be barred for life.
I imagine they thought they were above the law, or wouldn't be judged in time for 2027.
photochadsupremacist@reddit
Fascist and far right parties should be banned from politics anyways. I don't care about "slippery slope" bullshit. Allowing fascists or even the far right (often the same thing if we're being honest) is how you get the Nazis.
Fuck political freedom when it comes to the far right.
Boonaki@reddit
Would you say extremism is bad no matter the leaning? Far left, far right, different sides of the same coin.
photochadsupremacist@reddit
Far left: I want everyone to live a dignified life where all the basic necessities are met
Far right: i want to eliminate all minorities
Enlightened centrists: you guys are literally the same
Boonaki@reddit
You are ignoring far left history. You do know there is a long list of atrocities going back a 100 years?
Have you ever read about Vasily Blokhin?
photochadsupremacist@reddit
We can talk about atrocities committed by every single political faction. Centrists (including center-right) have caused an incalculable amount of death and destruction, far more than far leftists.
On the other hand, far leftists are responsible for the overwhelming majority of progress recently, from fighting apartheid, to ending segregation and universal suffrage, fighting climate change, campaigning for workers' rights, universal healthcare...
What good has the far right ever done?
Is there a far right leader that non-Nazis actually look up to?
Boonaki@reddit
I would say far right and far left have been overwhelmingly negative to the societies that adopt them.
100-150+ million dead for far left.
90+ million dead for far right.
Centrist death toll would be around 70 million if you include colonialism from the 16th to 20th century. Without including several hundred years of colonialism we are looking at 10 to 20 million deaths.
Militatti@reddit
source please
photochadsupremacist@reddit
You are actually quoting figures from literally the dumbest book to ever be written (and adding 50% on top of that). You immediately lost all credibility.
Just fyi, some of the "100m deaths" include 17m Nazis, and people who weren't born due to declining birth rates for example. It also counts famines which were common before leftists took over the USSR and China as deaths caused by communism, even though the deaths were due to lack of resources in the country (not caused by communism). It such a bad piece of literature that even the authors say the figures are bullshit.
Using such methodoligies, centrist death toll would be in the billions.
If you want an explanation that goes into much more detail, here is a 1 hour video.
Boonaki@reddit
I'm not quoting the book, I'm looking at the sum totals from the above Wikipedia entries.
Vasily Blokhin, one determined Communist perosnally executed thousands of people. In 28 days he executed 7,000 polish prisoners. He holds the world record for the most executions.
photochadsupremacist@reddit
Yeah, so we can easily extrapolate 100-150m from thousands of executions. Makes total sense.
Boonaki@reddit
I can actually list out the deaths from each of those Wikipedia entries if you like.
I know no amount of deaths is going to change your views. Usually communists have to hide their true feelings as they want to be the next Vasily Blokhin.
photochadsupremacist@reddit
Please list out the deaths then.
I can guarantee that you have no fucking idea what communism is if you think communists want to go around executing people.
Americans truly are the most propagandised people I've ever seen.
Boonaki@reddit
Soviet Union (1917–1991)
Leader: Vladimir Lenin
Mass executions of political opponents, clergy, and former Tsarist officials.
Leader: Joseph Stalin
Targeted Communist Party officials, military leaders, intellectuals, and perceived enemies.
Leader: Joseph Stalin
Prisoners forced into extreme labor; many died from overwork, executions, and disease.
Leader: Joseph Stalin
Soviet secret police (NKVD) executed Polish military officers and elites.
Leader: Joseph Stalin
Forced relocations of Crimean Tatars, Chechens, and other ethnic minorities to Siberia.
People’s Republic of China (1949–present)
Leader: Mao Zedong
Wealthy landowners and "class enemies" executed by the Communist Party.
Leader: Mao Zedong
Intellectuals and critics of the Communist Party were purged, imprisoned, and executed.
Leader: Mao Zedong
Mass political persecution, public executions, and violent purges.
Leader: Deng Xiaoping
Chinese military crushed pro-democracy protests in Beijing.
Cambodia (Khmer Rouge, 1975–1979)
Leader: Pol Pot
Intellectuals, former officials, and ethnic minorities executed in mass purges.
North Korea (1948–present)
Leaders: Kim Il-sung, Kim Jong-il, Kim Jong-un
Forced labor, torture, executions, and starvation of prisoners.
Leaders: Kim Il-sung, Kim Jong-il, Kim Jong-un
Executions of government officials, military leaders, and dissenters.
Ethiopia (Derg Regime, 1974–1991)
Leader: Mengistu Haile Mariam
Mass executions of students, intellectuals, and opposition groups.
Vietnam (1975–1990s)
Leader: Lê Duẩn
Former South Vietnamese officials and intellectuals imprisoned, tortured, and executed.
Not a complete list, but I think you get the idea.
photochadsupremacist@reddit
All of these together don't even reach 18m if we take the higher estimates (not 17m if I counted correctly but let's say 18m just in case I didn't).
It's seems like we're 12-18% of the way there. There's a very fucking long way to go and you've obviously listed most of the ones with the higher death tolls.
That's not even going into how questionable many of the sources are for the figures.
For instance, looking at the wiki article for the Vietnam reeducation camps, it says that between 200k-1m (the 1m number is said to be an exaggeration in the article) passed through the camps. Now unless they were extermination camps as efficient as Auschwitz, it's impossible for there to have been anywhere near 100k deaths, let alone 400k.
Looking at the death toll for thr Cultural revolution, it includes CCP members who were killed by the opposition (in the 100s of thousands), so you're counting the deaths of communists by the opposition as people killed by communists. I don't have to point out how absurd this is obviously.
If we do one for capitalism, the Nazis alone killed 17m people, the same as all of these combined.
Why do you want to commit another holocaust? You obviously support capitalism so you're just like Hitler. Wasn't that the argument you made?
Boonaki@reddit
That was a couple of minutes of work and you have millions of deaths.
Nazis were state controlled economy with capitalist elements, sort of like what China is right now. It was not a free market.
As far as free market capitalism goes, there are no mass graves behind McDonalds. It's sort of crazy though, under free market capitalism people are dying from having too much to eat.
photochadsupremacist@reddit
Yeah because you listed all the ones with a high death toll, let's not pretend that there is a list 5 times as long as this one.
Nazis were capitalist first and foremost.
We can also list
Is that what you tell yourself to sleep at night?
Is that why there are hundreds of thousands of homeless people in the US? Is that why in African "free market capitalist" countries, millions die every year from starvation? Is that why Nestle can kill 10 millions kids in Africa?
Clearly people are dying from having too much food.
It's also why Cuba has a higher life expectancy than the richest country in the world.
You are obviously propagandised, honestly to a level I haven't seen before.
Boonaki@reddit
I am not a fan of Communism or Socialism because I lived in former Soviet countries and former socialist countries.
Cuba has a higher life expectancy because they aren't as fat as us.
photochadsupremacist@reddit
You are valuing your lived experience a bit too much.
Unless you're over 50, you would've been a kid when the USSR was disbanded, and life immediately got worse when that happened for all Soviet states.
Cuba has a higher life expectancy because they have a much better and free healthcare system.
And there is the obvious reply that Americans are so fucking fat because of capitalism which incentivises food companies to add sugar and fat in excessive amounts to make people addicted to their food and consume more of it. Most of the food in the US is processed garbage that can only be produced in a system where food is made for profit, not for health and wellbeing.
Boonaki@reddit
You don't think being morbidly obese has a far higher impact on health than any other factors?
U.S. is ranked 19th on obesity when combining males and females. Cuba is ranked 105th.
https://data.worldobesity.org/rankings/?age=a&sex=t
The U.S (23.6) has a higher smoking rate than Cuba (15.7)
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/smoking-rates-by-country
The U.S. has higher alcoholism
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/alcoholism-by-country
The U.S is #1 in the world for drug abuse, Cuba has less than 10% of the same rate.
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/drug-use-by-country
While healthcare has an obvious impact, all of those others factors are why we are having issues with shorter life spans.
photochadsupremacist@reddit
It's funny that you genuinely don't understand how obesity, smoking, alcoholism and drug abuse are inextricably linked to capitalism, exploitation, and alienation from labour and society.
These are all coping mechanisms for a shitty life under capitalism.
I already talked about food.
Drugs and alcohol are very obvious coping mechanisms, no happy person abuses drugs and alcohol.
Smoking is of course promoted to shit because it's profitable. Without the profit motive of smoking companies, there would have been less smoking.
Do you not get that everything is fucking connected? Come on, just think about it. Look at all the mental health issues, the rising rates of depression, anxiety, suicide.
People aren't happy in the richest country in the world, and you still genuinely think capitalism works. Wealth inequality, rising cost of living, people can't afford to own homes, they can't afford to have kids, they can't afford to go to universities, they're dissatisfied with their jobs and their life, and this is in the heart of empire. Imagine what people feel in pooret capitalist countries ffs
Boonaki@reddit
Marx did not underatand human nature. He thought that humans were influenced by society. Under capitalism people become alienated and self-interested, but under socialism, his theory was we could become more cooperative and fulfilled.
Corruption and self-interest happened in every Communist and Socialist society. Humans are naturally greedy, lustful, lazy, dishonest, and violent. That is the real reason it has failed every single time it's been tried.
photochadsupremacist@reddit
Alienation of labour is undoubtedly true.
So many people are fans of Severance because it expresses that sentiment they've been feeling since forever.
"Human nature" arguments are always bullshit, there is no such thing as "human nature".
Socialism hasn't failed on its own, it's always sabotaged to hell from the US. Would you say socialism failed in Cuba? Is it a fair thing to say especially considering the blockade and hundreds of assassination attempts?
They still have free healthcare, education, and no homelessness. Is that a failure in any way, shape or form?
And it makes complete logical sense that if you have a bigger stake in your work, and more agency, you become much more engaged, cooperative, and fulfilled.
Even on the smallest scale, worker co-ops, which are socialist in nature, have a higher job satisfaction compared to shareholder companies. Of course, co-ops are compromises when socialism isn't possible at the moment, but they still work.
Boonaki@reddit
Was Vasily Blokhin a communist? He sure went around executing a whole lot of people.
photochadsupremacist@reddit
1 communist executed people so all communists must obviously want to execute people.
You're fucking embarrassing yourself.
Still yet to see the list.
photochadsupremacist@reddit
Another thing, the "horseshoe theory" is absolute bullshit. No one with any passing knowledge of what communism and fascism actually thinks they are both are anywhere near being as bad each other.
Very short explanation of why it's bullshit.
apistograma@reddit
Eh, no.
Your argument is a fallacy because you pretend there's a symmetry between the left and the right, and that's not true.
Besides, while it's true some people can do wrong even with the right intentions if they go too far, you can never agree on what's the "far left".
In 1840, abolishing slavery in the American South would be a "far left" policy. Nowadays even most people in the far right wouldn't support literal slavery.
Similarly, universal healthcare is viewed by some Americans as a far left policy, and in France not even Le Pen would dare to say universal healthcare should disappear. She's seen as far right because she holds racist and authoritarian views though.
Boonaki@reddit
You might want to do some light reading on your ideology.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimes_against_humanity_under_Communist_regimes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_crimes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambodian_genocide
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_of_landlords_under_Mao_Zedong
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Terror
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_purges_in_Serbia_in_1944–45
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purges_of_the_Communist_Party_of_the_Soviet_Union
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Purge
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Falun_Gong
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tugboat_%2213_de_Marzo%22_massacre
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_at_Huế
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_terrorism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tezno_massacre
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1951_Mokotów_Prison_execution
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gegenmiao_massacre
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_genocide
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians_in_the_Soviet_Union
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laogai
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dekulakization
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_the_Soviet_Union
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_China
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USSR_anti-religious_campaign_(1921–1928)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USSR_anti-religious_campaign_(1928%E2%80%931941)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USSR_anti-religious_campaign_(1958%E2%80%931964)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_anti-religious_legislation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campaign_to_Suppress_Counterrevolutionaries
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-anti_and_Five-anti_Campaigns
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sufan_movement
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Rightist_Campaign
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xunhua_Incident
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Land_Reform
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inner_Mongolia_incident
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadian_incident
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhao_Jianmin_Spy_Case
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1959_Tibetan_uprising
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_August
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Guards
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruijin_Massacre
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleansing_the_Class_Ranks
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_Tiananmen_Square_protests
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antireligious_campaigns_in_China
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khmer_Rouge_rule_of_Cambodia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_North_Korea
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kwalliso
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korea%27s_illicit_activities
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_repression_in_North_Korea
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_crackdown_on_dissidents_in_China
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/709_crackdown
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6521_Project
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_jails
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_from_Falun_Gong_practitioners_in_China
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians_in_the_Eastern_Bloc
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-religious_campaign_during_the_Russian_Civil_War
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_anti-religious_campaign
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USSR_anti-religious_campaign_(1970s%E2%80%931987)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1922_confiscation_of_Russian_Orthodox_Church_property
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_persecution_during_the_Soviet_occupation_of_Bessarabia_and_Northern_Bukovina
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_North
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Catholicism_in_the_Soviet_Union
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Catholic_victims_of_Soviet_persecutions
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kulen_Vakuf_massacre
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_reform_in_North_Vietnam
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decossackization
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_transfer_in_the_Soviet_Union
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_repression_in_the_Soviet_Union
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_the_Baltic_states#Soviet_terror
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenin%27s_Hanging_Order
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalinist_repressions_in_Mongolia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NKVD_prisoner_massacres
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_China
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NKVD_special_camps_in_Germany_1945%E2%80%9350
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbara_Pit_massacre
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bleiburg_repatriations
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foibe_massacres
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macelj_massacre
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leftist_errors
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ko%C4%8Devski_Rog_massacre
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisons_in_North_Korea
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kwalliso
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_reform_in_Vietnam
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_the_Montagnard_in_Vietnam
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Re-education_camp_(Vietnam)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Cuba
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Terror_(Ethiopia)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_re-education_camps
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinicization_of_Tibet
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexation_of_Tibet_by_the_People's_Republic_of_China
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_experimentation_in_North_Korea
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_religion_in_North_Korea
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poison_laboratory_of_the_Soviet_secret_services
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Operation_of_the_NKVD
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinnytsia_massacre
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khaibakh_massacre
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kengir_uprising
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novocherkassk_massacre
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeltoqsan
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumgait_pogrom
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirovabad_pogrom
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_January
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_9_tragedy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vorkuta_uprising
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%C3%A2nt%C3%A2na_Alb%C4%83_massacre
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January_Events_(Lithuania)
apistograma@reddit
You're not really expecting me to read all those links, I doubt even you did. You're just trying to make a point.
I've addressed your question, and you just went for the usual "tens of millions dead due to communism". This is like saying: "oh you're catholic? Then it means you support pedos".
This is not addressing anything I said. Are you really willing to have a real conversation or just use gotchas?
Boonaki@reddit
That is a long list of far-left extremism, it's not even a complete list.
I wouldn't say ending slavery was a far-left ideal as they have used slave labor quite recently. Go read up on Gulags.
The fatal flaw with far-left ideology is its own history.
apistograma@reddit
Who were the abolitionists? Do you think they weren't deemed as extremists back then?
I see your intentions were never to discuss but to argue against a straw man, because I've replied to your arguments and you're ignoring them. Or you're just very ideologically charged and you can't realize your own bias.
Boonaki@reddit
Anti-slavery sentiment wasn't an extremist ideal, you can see this with the election of 1860. John C. Breckinridge was the pro-slavery candidate and only got 14.4% of the vote.
In 1860 only 45% of U.S. states had legalized slavery.
Abraham Lincoln was a moderate, he was attempting to prevent the spread slavery and avoid a war. When the Civil War broke out that allowed open support for the 13th Amendment. It passed with two thirds vote.
Nothing extremist about ending slavery.
apistograma@reddit
You're not willing to engage with the argument.
First, 1840 is not 1860. Second, the north is not the same as the south. Hardly believable that it was a popular position when they literally started a civil war over it. Third, Lincoln wasn't an abolitionist, he was willing to compromise as long as new states didn't allow slavery, but he was ok keeping it in the south if it meant peace. That changed with the war.
But if you're going to discuss that I can pick any other period in history when it was fully acceptable. Like, in 1776 most founding fathers were slavers.
You don't want to be reasoned. And you're the kind of person who doesn't learn from discussion because you're a zealot.
Boonaki@reddit
A lot has changed in 249 years.
What hasn't changed is extremist ideologies hurting people. Moderates aren't out there building extermination camps or Gulags, the extremists are.
Are you going to address the far-left atrocities or just brush it under the rug and ignore it?
apistograma@reddit
I started saying good intentions aren't enough and you can harm people if you let yourself be blinded by ideology.
You're clearly not satisfied because nothing that isn't your ramblings will be enough for you.
Moderates were slavers. And moderates were the people who said whites and blacks should be separated.
And who are the ones who denounce the atrocities committed by Israel and demand to cut all support to the genocide? Not the moderates, that's clear.
Boonaki@reddit
If moderates were in charge of Israel and Palestine, there wouldn't be a war. The October 7th attack is a prime example of why extremists are bad.
apistograma@reddit
So according to you 99% of politicians in the US are extremist since they still support Israel.
Boonaki@reddit
I don't really hold a strong view on Israel one way or the other.
I do know that Hamas slaughtering anti-Hamas protestors is big problem. Just another example of extremists doing holding true to their history.
apistograma@reddit
You're telling me that you're doing Israel apologetics while they're commiting a literal genocide as we speak and you pretend you're a moderate.
Get out of here man, you're not a clown you're an entire circus.
Boonaki@reddit
As I said, I don't hold strong views on the situation. It's an extremely complex situation. I do know on October 7th the entire point of the attack was to draw a harsh Israeli response. Hamas was hoping to ignogjt a regional conflict that would lead to the destruction of Israel.
The U.S. sent two aircraft carriers to the region to reduce the chances of regional conflict starting.
Was the U.S. wrong in preventing a war that could have killed hundreds of thousands of people?
apistograma@reddit
Yeah right. Murdering tens of thousands of civilians and targeting specifically women and children as reported by multiple sources since the beginning of the war is necessary. Using drones to shoot at toddlers is necessary to stop Hamas.
So you care about mass murders committed by communist regimes 60 years ago but you don't care about mass murder committed by Israel right now.
Don't you find it a bit disgusting to pretend you're on your high horse of morality when it's clear you don't give a damn about human lives and your talk about communist atrocities is just a convenient fact to attack those who aren't ideologically aligned with you.
Boonaki@reddit
I have no problem condemning those actions.
Question, do you think Hamas has been a net negative or a net positive for the Palestinian cause?
apistograma@reddit
Dude if you're gonna tell me anything don't reply and do those shenanigans where I can see the notification but can't read the whole message or reply.
Boonaki@reddit
I am on the Reddit is Fun app, not sure what you're talking about, unless a mod is removing our comments.
apistograma@reddit
Nah I can see a fake outrage from a mile, and you have fake outrage.
You know, what I hate most is the hypocrisy. I'd respect you more if you just said you don't like communism but the deaths of Stalin are not something that really bother you.
Were the Jewish rebels in the Warsaw ghetto a net positive for the Jews in Warsaw?
Boonaki@reddit
It's a bad analogy, Hamas committed the worst mass killing of Jews since the end of WW2. They are trying to finish what the Nazi's started, and since you obviously support that, you are no better than a Nazi.
ModestBanana@reddit
I love when leftists show their true colors
silverionmox@reddit
It's the paradox of tolerance, you can't tolerate the undermining of tolerance.
MGD109@reddit
Yeah, it works better if you treat it as a social contract rather than an iron law.
If the other side isn't honouring the agreement, you don't have to either.
photochadsupremacist@reddit
Fascists have shown us time and time again that they will destroy every political institution and crush dissent everywhere. This has happened in many different countries, yet here we are still debating whether fascists should be allowed to participate in politics.
The Soviets were 100% right in how they dealt with Nazis.
le-o@reddit
Who gets to decide who's a fascist?
The state? Social media threads? Mainstream media journalists?
silverionmox@reddit
There's no absolute foolproof law or institution. In the end, it always comes back down on the integrity of people.
photochadsupremacist@reddit
A committee of academics/experts.
YouWantSMORE@reddit
So unelected "experts" get to decide who's politically elible and who isn't? Great idea if you want to kill democracy and love authoritarianism
photochadsupremacist@reddit
Unelected experts get to decide a lot of things. Supreme Court Judges are unelected experts that get to make a lot of important decisions.
le-o@reddit
They're a diverse breed.
How is the committee chosen? Who chooses them/funds the process?
Private capital, government, or are we gonna kickstarter this?
photochadsupremacist@reddit
Government, pick the top researchers in the best universities. Done.
Literally anything is better than letting fascists run for office.
le-o@reddit
What happens when a government you don't like picks the committee members?
And why are you so sure they won't pick for cynical political reasons instead of honourable ones?
photochadsupremacist@reddit
I didn't say the sitting government would appoint the committee.
Some might, but the committee should be large enough to mitigate this.
photochadsupremacist@reddit
Everyone. That literally the definition of beliefs.
Not sure why you're portraying being against fascists as somehow a bad thing though.
le-o@reddit
It's not enough to say you're against something bad. Everyone does that. Fascists do that. You have to practice the political virtues you hold important and practice methods which contribute to the good.
In your case that includes freedom of political thought/speech. Unless you're a fascist or something.
photochadsupremacist@reddit
Freedom of political thought isn't what I'm talking about, it's freedom of political action, which shouldn't exist.
We all know about the tolerance paradox.
Liberals are so comfortable letting fascists run in politics because of decorum and respectibility. Fuck that shit, that's how you get fascists.
le-o@reddit
Gotta sleep so I'll leave you with this. You don't get Nazis without German communists. You don't get Stalinism without far-right atrocities done by the Russian Whites (pro Tsarist group).
Populism needs an enemy to thrive and it's always the opposite kind of populism.
Don't be a populist. It won't stop populism.
Support consensus driven democracy by being a consensus seeking democrat.
nothingpersonnelmate@reddit
Yes you do. They just pick a different scapegoat. The Nazis had all sorts of different groups and ethnicities to blame all the world's problems on, and the communists weren't even the most prominent.
le-o@reddit
Many moderates supported the nazis explicitly because of fear of the communists.
It's similar to asking people to take extreme positions on censorship to stop modern fascism. Fear does work but it only promotes populism.
nothingpersonnelmate@reddit
But the communists don't need to do anything or exist in any significant numbers for fascists to use them to generate fear. They just have to exist at all. Your strategy amounts to "ensure 0 people out of tens of millions of people are left wing extremists in order to avoid anyone becoming a right wing extremist" and it is just 100% unworkable.
le-o@reddit
Actually you're right, but thats exactly the same for fascists
Actual fascists with explicit support for fascist ideology don't need to exist in great numbers to be used as a scapegoat or fear mongering tactic
Hatred is easy to stir
nothingpersonnelmate@reddit
Well, sure, but the ones in charge in the most powerful country in the world right now certainly look pretty fucking fascist to me. I don't think it's alarmist to start worrying about that sort of shit spreading across the western world.
le-o@reddit
The Trump team called Kamala a communist
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cn8jg11ynj7o
This is why I'm saying not to support extreme positions like political censorship to 'beat fascists'. It's exactly what the people you hate do. Don't you want to be different to them?
nothingpersonnelmate@reddit
Right, they didn't even need a communist, they literally argued a bog standard neoliberal was a communist. There isn't a reduction in extremism you could possibly perform that would prevent them from fearmongering about left wing extremism.
Germany bans fascist parties and various forms of hate speech since WW2 and this hasn't lead to their electing a fascist government. The slippery slope from censorship of fascists to fascism doesn't have much precedent as far as I'm aware.
I already am through all of the other political differences.
le-o@reddit
You don't need a real fascist either
nothingpersonnelmate@reddit
I already addressed this.
le-o@reddit
Freedom of political thought and speech includes allowing a fascist to air their dirty thoughts on a soapbox. It serves your purpose well, because there's much less appeal to a fascist when they can't make claims about conspiracies to silence them politically, and have to instead defend their politics directly and openly.
Don't give them any more fuel
nothingpersonnelmate@reddit
They absolutely can make those claims though. We just watched years of American right wingers claiming they were being politically silenced because all they had was the freedom to share all of their views everywhere and this somehow qualified as a major conspiracy. Fascists don't actually need to be silenced in order to claim they're being silenced.
They can also just not do that, tell a constant stream of lies instead, and use control over major social media platforms to boost those lies into the public consciousness.
photochadsupremacist@reddit
And how's that working out in the US, Germany, Italy, France, the Netherlands, and the UK, all countries where fascist (sometimes wannabe) parties are either in power or are close to gaining power?
Fascism is rising because instead of addressing the real problems of capitalism and neoliberalism which are destroying the world and the quality of life of working class people, fascists are diverting the blame towards minorities.
ModestBanana@reddit
Nazis and communists. That’s your answer. Even the most evil, wrong side of history type people felt fully justified and their lemming followers sound exactly like you do right now, the resemblance is uncanny.
“You paid your political staff with money meant for other political staff, therefore people can’t vote for you even if they wanted to”
Imagine giving Trump that power
photochadsupremacist@reddit
Leave it to an American to equate Nazis with communists jfc
Is US political education that fucking bad?
That's the neat thing, Trump wouldn't get to run!
And I hope your "love" for Hillary Clinton is sarcastic, not serious.
ModestBanana@reddit
This is how I know you’re illiterate and uneducated. Nazis felt righteous, and that’s how they justified their evil. Communists felt righteous, and that’s how they justified their evil. You’re feeling pretty righteous now justifying political protection, aren’t you?
Answer this: did the Nazis (genocide of 6+million) and communists (genocide of 100 million) feel righteous and justified in their crusades against their victims? The answer is obviously and irrefutably yes, so my comparison is spot on. Since it’s a spot on comparison, that makes you the uneducated dummy. Funny how that works isn’t it? Use your brain more you lemming.
What’s not to love about Hillary Clinton? Whenever someone brings her up, it tells me you were butthurt enough to stalk my profile. She’s doing me favors even while out of the political game.
yoweigh@reddit
I'm not really sure what your point is, because you're doing a terrible job of conveying it. You're just talking down to people and that's repulsive behavior. No one's going to listen to you if you insist on being an ass about it.
I'll bet you feel virtuous, righteous and justified about it, though. You're proving their point that that's how everyone feels about their own beliefs.
ModestBanana@reddit
The actions from my beliefs are just me feeling pity for the stupidity of others, sure.
Actions from their beliefs: ban this person I politically disagree with from running for office. Very democratic behavior.
There’s a big difference, and if you can’t acknowledge this, like many others have, then well…I pity you
yoweigh@reddit
So you respond by doubling down and being as much of an ass as possible, while painting 50% of the population as intolerant. Classy.
ModestBanana@reddit
I don’t care about being an ass, I still won’t advocate for taking your right to vote, to speak freely, or to run for office.
How’s the saying go?
yoweigh@reddit
Likewise. I haven't advocated for anything. I said you're being an ass and you've done nothing to suggest otherwise. Good bye.
ModestBanana@reddit
So you comment not to address my argument for being here: banning political opposition from running for office
But you comment only to say “you’re being a meanie”
LOL, how productive of you. Jesus man
lalabera@reddit
Loser
ModestBanana@reddit
I bet that comment took a majority of your brain power, proud of you little man
photochadsupremacist@reddit
I didn't say "banning political opposition", I said fascists.
The only people who would oppose this are fascists, or naive children who believe "political freedom" is more important than keeping fascists out of power. Which one are you?
ModestBanana@reddit
This is dehumanization of political rivals through misinformation and lies.
Classic textbook Nazi behavior. Dehumanize the political enemy so that when you violate their human rights it’s justified.
Buzz off little Nazi
photochadsupremacist@reddit
No, I disagree with liberals but I don't think they're fascists. I think fascists are fascists.
There's no "dehumanisation" in calling fascists what they are, no misinformation or lies.
"Banning Nazism is actually Nazism" is an interesting argument.
Running for office isn't a human right.
Again, no coherent arguments.
ModestBanana@reddit
I like how the further your comment goes, the more deranged you become and the more you out yourself as a Nazi authoritarian
Keep trying to justify your evil, you're just part of another "group" for the history books.
RandyMarshIsMyHero13@reddit
This will never not be funny and scary for me.
People cheering on literal fascism because they have been indoctrinated to believe that it's "democracy". It's actually wild that 15 years ago my dream was to move to Europe, now you couldn't pay me to live there.
YouWantSMORE@reddit
Found the fascist
photochadsupremacist@reddit
"fascism is banning fascism actually"
Interesting argument.
YouWantSMORE@reddit
I'm just calling a spade a spade. "Fuck political freedom" those are your words big guy. The trouble comes when most of the general population can not accurately determine who is/isn't a nazi or a fascist. It absolutely is a slippery slope, but again, in your own words, you said you don't care about that. Very refreshing to see people so open about their authoritarian tendencies these days props to you for being such an honest fascist.
"I may disagree with what you say, but I will fight to the death for your right to say it."
The difference here is I wouldn't attempt to turn you into a 2nd class citizen with no rights because of a difference of opinion, but you would. I actually believe in the principles that founded western civilization, and you don't. Very sad
photochadsupremacist@reddit
Which is why it isn't the general population that gets to decide who is a fascist, a committee of experts on the topic do.
Again, banning fascism is not fascism.
Fuck that shit. Freedom of speech is dumb. There are limits to speech that should be applied. The US has literal Nazi protests. Do you genuinely think that should be allowed? Will you "fight" for their right to protest?
Who said anything about turning anyone into 2nd class citizens? I said fascists don't get to run in politics.
The bleeding heart liberals that care more about a vague notion of freedom than crushing fascists. How is that working out for you with Trump actually enacting fascistic policies by disappearing people who are opposing a genocide?
nothingpersonnelmate@reddit
Has this ever actually happened? A legitimately democratic country banning fascist parties, then later itself sliding into fascism because the fascists didn't have political freedom, or because the term got used to label anyone the government didn't like?
lalabera@reddit
xenophobes and fascists should all die.
lalabera@reddit
Based
cryptedsky@reddit
Does this mean Jordan Bardella is going to run for président?
VintageGriffin@reddit
Trump in USA, Le Pen in France, Georgescu in Romania, Gutul in Moldova. Dissenting voices or the opposition are being removed, or attempted to be removed, from competing with the current establishment.
Can't help but to notice a pattern here.
airportakal@reddit
The pattern is that they break the law.
VintageGriffin@reddit
Surely the current establishment never breaks any laws. And if they do, they get (preemptive) presidential pardons on the last day of being in office.
You can cook any numbers you want if there's a will behind it, it's just not often used because it's kind of obvious, blatant and in your face. Things aren't going well and they have to stoop to this level, that often, lately.
TheWildPastisDude82@reddit
My gosh, you ain't a bright one.
VintageGriffin@reddit
Thanks for the free evaluation, but stick to the topic next time.
TheWildPastisDude82@reddit
Oh, but that's very much on topic. We wouldn't be all in this mess if stupidity wasn't a major issue leading to the rise of alt-right fuckery.
MairusuPawa@reddit
Trump is literally the US president, not the "opposition".
VintageGriffin@reddit
He wasn't up until a few months ago, and they have been trying their darnest to prevent that from happening with all the lawsuits then accusations going around.
I can't believe I have to explain this.
MairusuPawa@reddit
You'll find ANY excuse for your bullshit.
andehboston@reddit
That there is a large amount of corruption and Russian puppetry in the far right and they're getting caught but also sometimes getting away with their crimes?
VintageGriffin@reddit
Corruption is something that only the opposition engage in, got it.
andehboston@reddit
Nah there's absolutely corruption on all political spectrums, but just like the house slytherin, the right seem to attract a lot more assholes.
YouWantSMORE@reddit
I immediately disregard your political opinions when you start comparing it to works of fiction like HP, Star Wars, Marvel etc... life isn't a movie and it's not as simple as they're the bad guys and you're the good guy like you so desperately want to believe
andehboston@reddit
It's a metaphor. Metaphors especially to works of fiction are used all the time in politics.
AdditionalNothing997@reddit
No different from China or Russia
GodLikeKillerX@reddit
I think that is exactly his point, the West can no longer brag about having true democracy or fairness etc. Everyone is now equally corrupted and broken.
blankedblank@reddit
"now" lol. Insert "always has been" meme*
YouWantSMORE@reddit
Yeah I honestly do believe this. The government has just become more incompetent (along with the general population) and it's harder to hide it now.
azriel777@reddit
They are downvoting you because you are speaking the truth.
bluecheese2040@reddit
They came after trump with the legal system too...didn't work out too well. Unfortunately if she is guilty or not...it won't change a single mind.
Supporters will say lawfare.
Opponents will say good riddance.
Either way democracy takes a huge hit as trust erodes.
And until the underlying issues that make her relevant are resolved its when not if someone like her gets power.
I fear we are not as far away from the next Hitler in Europe as we may like to.pretend...
Piouw@reddit
I get where you're coming from, polarization is a major challenge, we don't have a good solution to that right now, and partisans of Le Pen will stir things up to the tune of "Democracy is under attack", etc.
Sure, accountability might stir things up temporarily, but ignoring wrongdoing sends an even worse message: that the rules don't apply to politicians. That kind of double standard is exactly what drives cynicism and distrust. It also creates conditions that authoritarian figures exploit, arguing that the system is broken and they alone can fix it.
You're right that we need to tackle deeper societal issues too, but that requires trust in our institutions. Accountability isn't a threat to democracy—it's one of its most important protections. When people see justice fairly applied, they gain confidence that democracy actually works.
Democracy doesn't weaken when people face consequences for wrongdoing; it becomes stronger and more legitimate. Accountability isn't the enemy.
bluecheese2040@reddit
Thanks for your well rounded reply.
This isn't the point in making tbh. The point is that trust erodes and that's the issue. Trust is already so low that those that support lepen won't beleive it.
We've literally seen it Happen in America.
Accountability isn't the enemy you're 100% right...but...the accountability has been lacking from too many foe too long and now...it just looks like score settling not justice.
I fear I've not been clear and I fear that on reddit 99% of people either don't or can't read beyond the first line.
Thank you for not being one of these
rookieoo@reddit
Your making sense. I share your thoughts. Reading about the embezzlement makes me wonder if anyone else has been charged with the same kind and if people in the future will be charged. It seems pretty vague from my outsiders perspective. They’re not accused of pocketing the money, but rather paying assistants with parliamentary money who are doing work for the party. Something that sounds very close to what happens in the US with members of Congress who spend much of their time raising money for the private political parties.
For me the question is, why now, and will the same standards be applied equally in the future. I have my doubts.
historicusXIII@reddit
Democracy erodes when we let politicians get away with fraud on the basis of their popularity.
bluecheese2040@reddit
Actually two things can be true....at least they can be in the real world.
If politicians get away with fraud...People lose trust in the system.... they lose faith in democracy.
I think you've proven my point. But as I said...2 things can be true
Kaiww@reddit
Nope. In France we put our politicians on trial. Even former President Sarkozy will get his 7 years prison sentence if the courts decide it. Democracy will only work if we keep putting the most corrupts in prison.
SamuelClemmens@reddit
But they didn't put her in prison, they just banned her from running in the next election with no room to appeal that portion.
If they put her in prison that would hurt credibility less, but the way this is set up it makes it look like she will be found innocent on appeal so they are just trying to keep her from running.
And if she does win the appeal it will severely damage public trust in the law. It will be a case of a judge blocking an innocent person from running for office.
nothingpersonnelmate@reddit
The next election is in 2027. Any appeal would be decided on by then. If this was the use of the courts to ban a rival politician, they would have done it last year before the election she was predicted to come out of with the largest party. The investigation has been ongoing since 2015.
Randomname256478425@reddit
It's the law that her party among others voted yes on a few years back.
Do you think the law should not apply because she might have a shot at an election ? That not how law work in a democracy.
SamuelClemmens@reddit
Sure, but then why have the punishment go into effect before the appeals are exhausted?
Its not like if she wins an election you can't just throw her in jail.
Randomname256478425@reddit
The law is made like that
Sganarellevalet@reddit
Her own party litteraly pushed for the law to be like that and voted for it, that's on her.
Kaiww@reddit
She got a prison sentence actually. 4 years of prison, of which 2 years suspended.
bluecheese2040@reddit
Two things can be true....
Wtf...how can u debate with someone that doesn't see this? It's like debating a brick wall or a fanatic
Kaiww@reddit
Lmao nope was obviously in answer to your entire post and premises. Cutting everything else like you did just makes you look stupid and dishonest.
Mundane_Emu8921@reddit
Then democracy has eroded into dust in the West.
Playful_Two_7596@reddit
There is no democracy without the rule of law.
Gohiking21@reddit
Kinda hard to believe there is any democracy left with or without the “rule of law”. Corporations and the 1% have been picking world leaders for decades. It’s all political theater to divide what’s left of the middle class while they back/fund all of the political parties so they always come out on top while giving us the illusion of choice. Or maybe not idk I’m just some dumb fuck on Reddit 🤷.
Halbaras@reddit
Yeah, but France isn't the US. She won't run for president now, the RN doesn't have the power needed over either the presidency or courts to blatantly disregard the law like Trump has. Were they to gain that power, she obviously wouldn't be needed anyway.
And democracy would take an even bigger hit if she got away with stealing EU funding.
bluecheese2040@reddit
Absolutely.
Obviously correct
AframFram@reddit
Good, democracy is clearly showing it is not capable of dealing with modern times, its a dictatorship of the stupid media influenced masses.
So if I can choose between a tyranny of sheep and an alternative I know what I choose. There is a reason republics dies if historically, people got wise. Took Rome 500 years, Athens 200 years. But everybody got wise, the public is to stupid to rule themselves.
Rayvinblade@reddit
You're right that this is how it will be seen but what are we actually meant to do? Let politicians break any law they want and claim they're being persecuted when held accountable?
The problem I think the 'populist right' has to realise here is that from everyone else's point of view, these people are criminals. The evidence is there, we can see and read it, it isn't being made up. If you want your leaders not to be "persecuted" for breaking the law, choose better leaders. They're the ones betraying what you stand for, not us.
This is also why the first thing these people do when in power, is go to dismantle and enfeeble the judiciary. It's why Musk keeps prattling on about how courts shouldn't hold Presidents accountable to the law. It's fucking insanity to let these criminals take over our countries. So again - the populist right voters can have whatever views they want to have, but shouldn't let fucking criminals represent them. Choose better people.
redridingoops@reddit
Indeed, though the next Hitler is pushed further away when the media/politicians have strongly enforced ethics and courts have actual independence.
bluecheese2040@reddit
Absolutely.
I agree...but where is this happening? Lemme know so I can move there.
fjoes@reddit
Had it been murder, ok. But this is a case going back 10+ years, and the embezzlement didn't even profit her (outside of hiring her own party members).
So the money was to be spent anyway for 'assistance', and she employed her own. And for that 10+ years later the people can't vote on arguably the most popular candidate in a future presidential election? It's pretty fucked up.
Sprintzer@reddit
Embezzlement is embezzlement. That’s a lot of taxpayer funds that were used illegally.
Politicians are not above the law and should be punished accordingly. I would support this ruling on any politician as long as they were guilty of a remotely serious crime.
How much funds is it okay to embezzle? €10 million? €50?
fjoes@reddit
When did I ever say it was okay to embezzle? What I'm trying to point out, is that it's not ok that the people are not allowed to vote for her over this.
JAMisskeptical@reddit
Play silly games win silly prizes.
fjoes@reddit
Did the people play silly games? Now they can't vote for their preferred candidate. Is that their prize?
And yes, Le Pen is arguably the most popular presidential candidate going forward, so we are talking about millions of people that are denied their candidate in an upcoming election.
How about you stop looking for easy wins playing fascist games and join us all in democracy.
JAMisskeptical@reddit
The absolute state of clowns like you is ridiculous.
Dry your eyes and join the grown ups in the world, if people commit crimes shit happens to them, even if that’s your favourite friendly facist. What kind of idiot wants criminal politicians to face no criminal charges? You’re a joke mate, now off you fuck!
Sganarellevalet@reddit
They litteraly can vote for her party, she just can't run herself, because she committed a crime.
How are "the peoples" affected by this when our party options won't change at all ?
Randomname256478425@reddit
It's the law.
Law that her party voted yes on a few years back.
4latar@reddit
ah yes, because i guess it's fine to be elected if you "only" stole millions of funds, what's the harm really. if i had my way it'd be impossible to be elected if you got a guilty verdict on anything other than a very very minor things, or if they go back to at least 20 to 30 years
himmelundhoelle@reddit
The people get to vote for anyone who hasn't been found guilty of robbing society, is that so unreasonable?
You can say "it's not ok to embezzle" left and right, but supporting electing corrupt politicians says effectively: it's very much ok to embezzle.
Is not being a convicted criminal such a high bar to reach for state leaders?
fjoes@reddit
And ONLY those.
Yes.
empleadoEstatalBot@reddit
Maintainer | Creator | Source Code
Summoning /u/CoverageAnalysisBot
brelincovers@reddit
"Donald Trump said the conviction was a “very big deal”.
“I know all about it, and a lot of people thought she wasn’t going to be convicted of anything,” the US president told reporters at the White House. “But she was banned for running for five years, and she’s the leading candidate. That sounds like this country, that sounds very much like this country,” Trump said, in an apparent reference to legal cases that Trump himself faced before he took office.
Elon Musk, Tesla’s billionaire owner, who has backed the far right in Germany and plays a major role in Trump’s administration, said the sentence against Le Pen would “backfire, like the legal attacks against president Trump”.
Skipped over that part.
coverageanalysisbot@reddit
Sorry empleadoEstatalBot,
I haven't found any additional coverage for this story (yet!).
I’m a bot. Read here to learn how it works or message us with any feedback so we can improve the bot for you.
lolthenoob@reddit
Its just lawfrae. it was her paying some of her aides out of her MEP stipend. They alleged that her aides were working for her party and not just her, but this was common practice at the time.
Elpsyth@reddit
Wtf you are about.
Sarkozy has been condemn and is doing jail time. His career is over.
Fillon got the same sanction as Lepen for similar yet lesser infractions.
Balkanies are doing jail time.
Maximum_Novel_5685@reddit
Thank god but there will be others like her. The battle was won but the fight goes on. Hopefully she cannot appeal and if she does, hopefully the French courts hold strong. Vive la France! Liberté, egalité, fraternité!!!!
sir-potato-head@reddit
Whether or not you don't like a person's opinions the appeal process is a cornerstone of a fair judicial system.
She is entitled to the same procedural rights as any other citizen
Maximum_Novel_5685@reddit
Never said she wasn't. But if she's guilty of corruption and just appealing for the sake of grabbing power, as I said before I hope the courts hold strong.
StoopSign@reddit
Apparently Le Pen isn't mightier than Le Sword
Advanced-Dirt-4375@reddit
Must be nice
AframFram@reddit
"Political mafia bans opponent to try to take over their turf and means of enrichment".
Politicians should be held accountable to the same degree. So why hasn't Sarkozy been treated as harshly? Government is a mafia. Taxes are theft. Politicians are gang leaders. And the media is the paid enemy.
MelaniaSexLife@reddit
wonderful news for everyone in the world. They should just bar that family for eternity