What is up? Across all brands.
Posted by Level-Setting825@reddit | askcarguys | View on Reddit | 69 comments
My question, and it hits all the makes of cars and trucks:
Did you just start building engines and transmissions yesterday? Seems years of experience should equal better quality/longevity. Rubber belts soaking in oil driving oil pumps. Hi pressure fuel pumps failing left and right because no one thought to use material that wouldn’t rust and corrode at the mildest hint of moisture in the fuel. Timing chain systems failing before 100k even some before 60k. Transmissions with constant failure. You’d think CvT would be better by now. Everytime I turn around seems some newer model overpriced POS is being recalled. I honestly don’t know what I’d buy if I had to replace a vehicle, I have no faith in the quality of any of them. Not to mention all the gee whiz electronics etc that probably will be “no longer supported” or “obsolete parts” in less than 10 years. Too much is basically “non reparable” just replace component.
Of course, I think the automotive industry works on the business model of buy a car then by the time you pay it off, time to replace. Planned obsolescence.
spokismONE@reddit
Well the manufacturers already figured out how to build good reliable engines in the late 90’s and early 00’s.
Now all the new R&D money basically just goes into making the same engines for less money out of the cheapest junk materials possible.
Raptor285@reddit
I've worked in automotive testing for several companies and have witnessed the birth of my share of issues and a lot of them stem from a few things.
1. Suppliers being weasels and not delivering what was promised it's a constant game of whack-a-mole keeping suppliers in line.
2. Manufacturing managers not wanting to deal with a problem correctly. Because dealing with it might affect their production numbers. bonus points for dum-dums on the line for finding more "efficient" ways to do things.
3. There is no issues that arise during testing. You can only simulate wear and abuse so many ways or the aging of materials. There is no cure for customers not maintaining their shit. With current regulations everything is way more high strung and more delicate and less abuseable.
I've seen some straight up bad designs but those three things are a way more common.
ImReallyFuckingHigh@reddit
The most common answer to why an engineer made a stupid decision is because the company wants to save money. It’s always about money.
jabroni4545@reddit
They also push new technologies to try and eek out better efficiency for fuel economy regulations.
mmaalex@reddit
This is the real issue. CAFE, and safety standards standards in the near future that require extreme increases in MPG are going to require extreme engineering with limited time to test it, combined with economic pressures to keep prices competitive with similar vehicles.
The real reason for the crazy CAFE standards is to force electrification, but at least in the US, the consumer clearly doesn't want that, so the manufacturers are stuck between a rock and a hard place.
We put the rubber timing belt soaked in oil on the back of the block because that's the only place it would fit. Who cares if it costs $5k to replace a 100k mile wear item? It will be well out of warranty at that point. Whi cares if the 42 speed transmission grenades at 100k? Wear item, out of warranty.
ImReallyFuckingHigh@reddit
There’s that too, shits just more complicated in general.
mechafishy@reddit
There's also definitely got to be an issue with management not liking bad news. There's no way that Ford wet belt got thru testing without the issues being obvious.
ImReallyFuckingHigh@reddit
Could be, could also be something like a high enough % is estimated to make it out of warranty that the the profits will far outweigh any warranty costs and/or the added cost to R&D to change the design and potentially delay production.
Every situation is different though and could be caused from either or neither of the things we’ve specifically mentioned, but it almost always finds its way back to being a money issue.
Jrock1999@reddit
What Ford wet belt? What vehicles have that?
el-art-seam@reddit
Ranger has them I think
Criss_Crossx@reddit
F150's for sure. Ecoboost engines allegedly, not sure it is limited to a specific size.
3rdgencamaroz28@reddit
Not sure about Ford, but GM has a belt driven oil pump inside the 3.0 mini duramax.
SAEftw@reddit
More importantly, investors want to make money. Every year, year over year. Unlimited growth, unbridled greed.
This is how they fuck all of us.
Eat the rich.
outline8668@reddit
Cost cutting is always the answer. How low can we cut costs and still meet minimum customer expectations. And what can we do to ensure those expectations remain low
BitOfAZeldaFan3@reddit
Engineers don't build engines, shareholders build engines.
MishkaShubaly@reddit
Yup. I’ll be driving cars from ‘96 - ‘08 till I die.
Lee_Bv@reddit
My daughter is constantly asking me why I still drive my 03 Outback that has no infotainment system, no factory installed GPS and back-up camera (though I do have a good Garmin add-on), and why I have duct tape on my driver's seat. Cause it all works and with only 125K on it it will go for 20 more years,
My wife's car is an 02 Camry with 36K.
Hansj2@reddit
Ehhh
And I say this with all of the love of a Subaru enthusiast that adores that era,
Those head gaskets are going to go eventually, unless they've already been done.
Outside of that, the only thing that seems to take them is rust. Everything else is a maintainable part.
On the other hand, you have the automotive equivalent of a cockroach for your wife, those Camrys never die, how in the hell did you get one with such low miles?
Lee_Bv@reddit
The Outback is an H6 bought new with about 125K. No head gasket issues, but I may have to replace the cat this year. Absolutely no rust on it. Always garaged.
The Camry was bought new in 02. My wife's school was less than three miles away, so it did about 30 miles a week if she drove every day, which she didn't as she often pooled with a couple other nearby teachers. I'm sure they didn't pool to save gas/time but to talk. Also always garaged.
Marlowe_Eldridge@reddit
This doesn’t apply to most Honda’s/Toyota’s (they have some lemons, but it’s rare).
mechafishy@reddit
Bullshit. I remember the stacks of Tacoma frames piled high behind the dealership. It's still criminal they left the 4 runner owners out in the rain.
Hansj2@reddit
And the Sequoia and to a smaller extent first gen tundras too and to a smaller extent first gen tundras too
cyborgerian@reddit
Tundra engine failure?
mmmmmyee@reddit
They got warranty replacements. Im letting this one slide in my toyota fanboy book since they were quick about it, admitted fault, and did the customers right by doing replacements even when they seemed fine
cyborgerian@reddit
So what about the FR86 oil starvation during tracking, and the GR Corolla engine fire warranty denial due to them taking the car over 85mph
mmmmmyee@reddit
It’s a thing that doesn’t seem to pop motors? I see all thr YouTubers go on about it and the diy fixes and whatnots. But for this issue to pop motors… doesn’t seem to happen all that much? My buddies that track their zn/zc6 have yet to pop a motor from hard driving. But oil pressure loss is a thing though, which in my trackboy book is a no-fly zone. So if (more like when) I pick up a frs I’ gonna do an accusumpt install to compensate the oil drop loss in hard corners (and pre-oiling!).
Gr corolla fires are not something Im aware of. Is is a thing or a one-off?
Marlowe_Eldridge@reddit
In 50 + years that’s a pretty good track record.
cyborgerian@reddit
But it speaks to the trend for new cars in the last 5-10 years. Shit parts, shit engineering (due to management), shit products. Even Toyota isn’t immune. But yes Toyota is still legendary
Punisher-3-1@reddit
A lot of the new Toyota models have been absolute shit shows. If you follow The Drive, it’s also scary how often and how hard they are working at denying warranties, even snooping people on social media to find a reason to not honor the warranty. My buddy from church bought a new tundra and within a year he had to have an engine replacement. They actually fought him on it. Then he needed the transmission replaced. To top it off, the truck would leak every time it would rain and Toyota could not figure out why.
friendIdiglove@reddit
They have better testing/validation and quality control, but they’re far from immune to the same issues as everyone else. Toyota doesn’t rush technology out, and Honda isn’t quick to follow the crowd either, but there are still compromises made.
SailingSpark@reddit
Many design choices are done to either save money, reduce emissions, or reduce NVH. In many cases, engineers can design a great product, but it gets dumbed down to save money.
I think it was Bob Lutz who said that parts that are not there dont cause warranty issues.
Level-Setting825@reddit (OP)
Love his book: Car Guys vs Bean Counters
whitewolfdogwalker@reddit
Father of the Australian GTO!
Lubi3chill@reddit
It’s not even about cars, it’s the same with everything.
Once I had cheap ~25$ sony headphones. I had them for 7 years. I abused them, It was common for me to throw them etc. They didn’t broke, but the ear pads have gotten hard so I decided to buy new ones. They still worked same as new, they just were uncomfortable because of the pads.
Bought the same exact model, just 7 years newer. I also matured and grew up so I didn’t throw them anymore and abuse them. They broke within few months.
Another example of sony. I have one of the early flat screen sony bravia tvs (first flat screen that we owned) and it still works like new. We bought it 15? years ago I don’t remember exactly. Find me tv today that will last this long.
It’s just the way of doing things today. They realized that if everyone will stop making things to last we will still have to buy them because we don’t have any other choice.
Level-Setting825@reddit (OP)
I bought a pair or Ariat All Terrain boots in 2005, pretty much wear them 90% of the time, church, yardwork, hiking, everything after a few years they become a bit un presentable for church, I buy a new pair, usually after 4 or five years, still kept older pairs that I would switch around with the older 3 to preserve my newest. I just discarded my original pair from 2005.
Cool thing is Ariat hasn’t really changed this shoe over the 20 years except maybe slight different/better sole.
They build quality, and because they do, they get repeat business.
I remember when the automakers had loyal customers
Background_Guess_742@reddit
Majority of ariat boots are made in China and Mexico. Some models are produced in Vietnam and Italy. Their Mexican made boots are the highest quality with the Chinese boots are nowhere near that quality. You must have a Mexican made pair.
Level-Setting825@reddit (OP)
Some China, latest pair Vietnam
Background_Guess_742@reddit
Where was the pair you bought in 2005 made? I don't know how they lasted you that long unless you only wear them a couple times per month. I can't even get a full 2 years out of pair without having them resoled. After that they're not worth resoling a second time. I wear them mon-fri only at work. I've tried all types of brands and different styles at different price points.
Level-Setting825@reddit (OP)
I think USA, that’s the pair I recently discarded. These are the All Terrain Hiking Shoe Style
iforgotalltgedetails@reddit
Sony has honestly just turned around with how they used to be as a company for the worst. Used to be a huge Sony fan boy and trusted that when I bought their shit it was high quality and would last. My Sony official PS3 headset? Lasted 10 years until the battery gave out and could only use it for like 2-3 hours before it was dead. But ALWAYS worked - PS3, PS4, PC, hell would have probably worked on my PS5 if I had it still. Bought the Pulse 3D headset and well the earmuff quality fell apart after 1 year but I could still use it and use it on PC as well and the audio and mic was superb so I kept using it until it broke on the headband. Bought the pulse elite against hearing so many reviews of it being mid and yeah it’s mid as fuck, does NOT work on PC for a mic and it’s not just mine my best friends does the same glitch out. Mic ONLY works on PS5, to top it all off the head band broke after 3 months.
I’ve heard the controllers are also just as bad
Lubi3chill@reddit
It’s the same with any company in any industry making stuff that has technology in it.
KMFDM781@reddit
I grew up in the 80s and those old console TVs were built like tanks. You can find them on marketplace or estate sales and they almost always still work. Same with audio equipment and kitchen equipment from back then. My mom bought a brand new 4K Samsung TV and it was trash in 3 years. The LED backlights fell out of it. Junk. I try to buy older, quality things from estate sales, antique shops and from Facebook marketplace as much as possible because it's just generally built better.
Stuff now is just made with an expiration date in mind and push to upgrade. Nothing serviceable. Cheap materials. Same with a lot of cars. You get NPC cars designed for a lease and a trade and exist within a warranty period that the engines are made to be replaced, not rebuilt.
Some vehicles will last but those are generally enthusiast cars made with the idea that at some point the customer will modify and replace parts and fix the drivetrain when it needs it. Those vehicles are usually more expensive and don't fill the needs of the Target mom with 3 kids and the office dad who just needs conveyance.
Ok-Anteater-384@reddit
American auto manufactures don't want them to last, use them, abuse them, then throw them away ....... it's the American way.
It's no longer true but Mercedes Benz used to build vehicles like no other company. Every part of the vehicle could be replaced so technically you could keep it running forever.
Those days are gone forever.
They had two mottos, "Make as many things as you can mechanical and only those electrical that you have to".
The second motto was "It's not how fast you go; it's how you go fast".
MoirasPurpleOrb@reddit
While I think the problems in this post are grossly overstated, it’s also important to point out that just because a company has been making cars for years doesn’t mean all of the engineers involved have.
Impressive_Fox_1282@reddit
Planned obsolescence. They aren't selling product when the product last "forever".
Level-Setting825@reddit (OP)
No. 1. What I have experienced locally working in a Shop 2. What I have experienced with family, friends and neighbors, when they are given “you need and engine” or “you need major engine repair” and they consult me to see if diagnosis in correct/makes sense 3. Reading and researching for friends looking for used cars and asking me about common problems, complaints and reliability 4. Reading and hearing about all the recalls, not always catastrophic failures but some are “We don’t recommend driving until recall is done” and “ by the way our backlog on that recall is ______months. So basically PARK your new car, which you are making payments on, and find something else to drive.
Nope I didn’t keep track of numbers and each specific incident- but enough for me not to have faith in most newer vehicles.
thecaramelbandit@reddit
These days it's an embarrassing failure when an engine dies before 200k.
When I was a kid, it was a minor miracle when an engine lasted that long
Level-Setting825@reddit (OP)
200k ain‘t back, some can‘t get past 60k-80k nowadays
thecaramelbandit@reddit
I think that's it's super rare for an engine to die at less than 100k these days. You probably hear about it more because of the Internet.
Level-Setting825@reddit (OP)
Kia, Hyundai, and the K-H replacement engines are same garbage as original, the Ford engines with the water pump inside the timing cover leaking into the oil. In recent past I have seen Jeep Engines where rocker arms bolts pull out, or the mount area breaks, Chrysler v8, throwing rocker arms, GM AFM Lifters failing require major labor ( remove heads to replace) for example. Quite a lot of work to change out that oil pump belt that bathes in engine oil. Even if not total failure expensive repairs early. GM V6 Timing Chain issues
thecaramelbandit@reddit
Do you have any numbers to back up these engine reliability claims, or are you just making assumptions based on complaints you hear online?
mr5e1fd3struct@reddit
sold my modern toyota for a 20 year old truck
lightningboy65@reddit
I got into a habit of keeping a reliable beater truck. At first it was a truck I bought used. When it came time to buy a new truck in 2008, I've decided to keep my 2004 F 150 as my beater....a much nicer beater than I had in the past, but I always liked that truck and did not want to part with it. I've had 5 new trucks since, but still have that 2004 F 150 as my beater. I trust it to last moreso than any of the other newer trucks I've owned since. You are correct.....just too many things built not to last on newer vehicles, and when many of those parts do fail the cost can get close to (maybe even exceed) the value of the vehicle.
magaketo@reddit
The delicate balance between efficiency and cost. Parts are made in order to 1) meet regulations for fuel economy and 2) be as cheap as possible.
Everything is also more complex now as well. Dualclutch, 10 speed transmissions. All manner of variable valve timing and cylinder shut off schemes. Dual overhead cams with complex timing chain systems. Every system of the car relies on computers.
It's not your father's Oldsmobile.
FrontBrilliant9381@reddit
They got bad no one really works on things
ImmortalGamma@reddit
The high pressure pump issue seems to be caused by cavitation. It seems to down to the current fashion to have an extra unnecessary super fine filter. The absense of this filter never harmed engines before.
sweetrobna@reddit
As bad as cars are now. They used to be significantly worse.
Not just stuff like not having adaptive cruise, emergency braking, carplay, blind spot monitoring, lane assist that helps to prevent crashes and makes drivers less exhausted. But short sighted designs, requiring removing a wheel to replace a battery. Or need to remove the hood cowl and windshield wipers, or a seat. Taking the front bumper off to replace a headlight. Maintenance periods are longer, like early turbos required replacing the spark plugs every at 40k-50k miles instead of 80k-100k. Oil changes are less frequent. Performance is also up significantly, at the same time mileage is better.
For the cars you own, how do you think an a4 compares to a newer car in that class for reliability?
Level-Setting825@reddit (OP)
First I remember removing 3 or four phillips screws from a bezel to replace a round headlight: low beam, high beam, or one with combo. Opening the trunk for instant access to taillight bulbs. One fuse box with 6-10 fuses.
I find that the newer models are more difficult to maintain and don’t last as long. Of course mine would be really expensive were I not able to do the work on it. Black plastic engine parts deteriorating causing coolant leaks, pull front almost off (service position) to do water pump and/or timing belt. PIA doing rear timing chain. Ridiculous placement of oil filter. How many different style fasteners does a company need. Asinine fasteners on the undercovers. At least Honda has a small panel for access to oil filter, Audi have to remove the whole POS undercover. I am in luck because I have the tool and have changed the CVT fluid regularly, and realized that the „oil cooler line“ is actually an inline filter, which is an inordinately expensive part, but I have changed it too. To me everything on the Audi is „$400 and 4 hours“ while my Chevy is „20 and 20 minutes“- but my wife loves her Red Audi
HooverMaster@reddit
the honda cvt seems to have a good track record. but yea idk what's up with engineering. Seems like they have rose colored glasses when they design stuff
ruddy3499@reddit
Saab was built that way. They were too expensive and basically went out of business. Cramming a bunch of cheap features in a car sells them. They’re giving the people what they want
Level-Setting825@reddit (OP)
They had a loyal niche. Once GM bought them, too many badge engineered offerings competing against the other same vehicles with different trim
ruddy3499@reddit
They were the most solid cars ever built
MichiganKarter@reddit
Go find a manual transmission 2WD car with port injection.
I think there's only one left
Level-Setting825@reddit (OP)
For the record I have: 93 Chevy C1500 w/ 337k miles 93 Ford Ranger w/ 104k miles 96 BMW Z3 w/198k miles 08 Audi A4 with 160k miles
SolarE46@reddit
You’re set for life my guy. Bump that 1500 up to 25 or even 3500 specs and You. Are. Set. For life. They don’t want you to have a good product that lasts anymore. They don’t wanna wait those 400k miles they designed that model for with maintenance and care. They don’t want to wait those years and miles of brand reinforcement. They want that money as soon as they can get it. So what’s the reinforcement on that point that you can say “this car lasted me 20 years so I’ll buy another when it finally fails”. There is none. They want more money and now. They wanna sell the bare minimum and then you’ll go “okay my car subscription is up, time to buy another, newer car” so they can make more money. It’s as simple as that. My ‘96 Tacoma lasted 350k miles and it’ll probably go another 350k before needing major repairs again. They don’t want that
Frird2008@reddit
Here are your "safe" vehicle choices reliability-wise from every category if you want a 2025 or 2026 model brand new vehicle:
8-passenger SUV: Honda Pilot ONLY 7-passenger SUV: Honda Pilot or Acura MDX 5-passenger SUV: Honda Passport & Mazda CX-5 (WITH THE NATURALLY ASPIRATED ENGINE) 5-passenger sedan: Mazda3 (WITH THE NATURALLY ASPIRATED ENGINE) OR any Lexus sedan with a naturally aspirated engine & a 6-speed automatic gearbox 2-passenger convertible: Mazda MX-5 Miata
You're going to be paying a lot for either of the above vehicles if you decide to buy instead of lease in this kind of economy so you might as well not make frequent & expensive repair costs a part of that budget. These will be the cheapest to run long term & break down the least frequently. They will also cost way less per repair on average.
WHY?
Each of the above vehicles comes with [1] naturally aspirated engines by default (or naturally aspirated engines ONLY), [2] NO HYBRID which means no hybrid battery failure, boom thousands saved in repairs per 100K miles of driving past-warranty right then & there, [3] NO fancy transmissions (this means no CVTs, IVTs, DCTs or any weirdly-configured manual transmissions) meaning simpler to work on & easier/far cheaper to repair, [4] decades or years-long reputation for being consistently inexpensive to repair for hundreds of thousands of miles after the powertrain warranty expires.
YOU are the best warranty.
CaptainHubble@reddit
Most engineers actually know what they're doing. I was in engineering university 5 years. We all get taught the same shit. Some just aren't paying attention. But they're just part of a company that main goal is to make money.
On top of that with some parts on some brands they actually get told to engineer it to "make it fail at a certain point, but not make it too obvious". And they're pretty good at this. Consider it a subscription, to make the customer to definitely come back after a certain time, and pay more money. The more precise the engineers can estimate the time of failure, the better the company can handle the business. That way they can make tho whole car cheaper, increase sales due to better competition even more, and sell more parts and get more money long term. Genius.
Add constantly increasing demand of efficiency and lowest pollution as possible on it and you'll get crazy fragile and light engine parts that have no material reserve left.
Have I forgot something?
False_Mushroom_8962@reddit
I agree. Their pockets started getting light the last 10 years or so from cars lasting too long so the new goal is catastrophic failure right after the warranty expires
Upstairs-Tadpole-974@reddit
Yeah… there’s very few cars made in the last 5 years or so I would ever consider buying. Everything is unfortunately made cheaply and/or poorly now