Collapse is happening now, it's happening tomorrow, and the day after.
Posted by SaxManSteve@reddit | collapse | View on Reddit | 285 comments
Posted by SaxManSteve@reddit | collapse | View on Reddit | 285 comments
SaxManSteve@reddit (OP)
SS: Instead of summarizing or explaining how Trump's move towards isolationism is part of the collapse, I thought I would share a passage from John Michael Greer's book The Long Descent that stuck with me. It emphasizes how relatively slow—from the perspective of a single lifetime—the process of collapse was for historical empires. It helps to add perspective to the myriad crises we are experiencing today, the death by a thousand cuts that is catabolic collapse.
passenger_now@reddit
So sad and weird that Greer went off the rails with Trump 1. I used to look forward to his weekly posts and digest them. He always had a contrary outlook, which was sometimes a strength, but his insistence that Trump was actually good and represented the interests of ordinary people was a bizarre leap and nothing I read from him after that made any sense.
NelsonChunder@reddit
The same for me. I enjoyed him until Trump came along.
It's weird that nearly the entire peak oil/collapse crowd followed the same pattern with Trump. Kunstler and Orlov both did the same thing of jumping on the Trump bandwagon. Kunstler always had a strong streak of assholism in him so it wasn't as surprising when he joined all the other assholes in following Trump, the king of assholes. But Greer and stoic Dimitri Orlov kind of surprised me by joining that crowd. I haven't read anything they've written since then. Hell, them becoming Trumpers made me question the whole collapse concept. If they could have that poor of judgment about someone like Trump, how could you trust anything else they were saying?
Kaining@reddit
To be fair, we could argue that collapsing the economy as fast as possible might be the only way to really diminish our energy consuption and somehow slow down climate change.
It's half bonkers, half true too. The lockdown showed us what did a collapsed activity do for CO2 emission and the conclusion was "yeah, this should be the new normal if we don't want to all die atrocely in a hundred to a couple hundred years at best".
passenger_now@reddit
Global nuclear war ASAP is unironically one of the most positive potential futures for life on this planet.
hurricanesherri@reddit
If we consider how the vast majority of life on this planet (i.e., the non-human life) would be impacted, that's not a positive future at all. 😞
passenger_now@reddit
I said "most positive", not "positive". It's not better than today, but no options are - it's a hail-mary possibility of halting our path to near total annihilation of complex life.
hurricanesherri@reddit
I think that is just aiming too low, truly. The most positive futures all require a quick pivot from fossil fuels to sustainable energy (solar, wind, geothermal)... and addressing our population crisis.
Zestyclose-Ad-9420@reddit
i had this thought in the shower yesterday. Even the worse case scenario of nuclear winter is "better" than the worst case warming scenarios. If a nuclear war permanently decreases global industry to below 10% of now, then it comes out as a utilitarian net gain to humanity.
I dont like that thought tbh, because it makes me wonder how many other people have thought the same.
passenger_now@reddit
AFAIK, nuclear winter is only a few years from smoke from firestorms from the blasts etc.. So it probably isn't much help beyond halting emissions.
Zestyclose-Ad-9420@reddit
i didnt mean in the sense of a long term cooling but in the sense of permanently tanking emissions.
NelsonChunder@reddit
I can agree with you on that logic. But IIRC, that's not the angle any of them took with Trump. In fact, I don't remember any of them going that route at all.
Involutionnn@reddit
Yes, to me it seems JMG is going the "Trump is playing 4D chess" angle and I just can't understand someone who I thought was very intelligent sees Trump as anything but an immature, unintelligent, ego-driven, narcissistic man-child.
Zestyclose-Ad-9420@reddit
as far as i understand, JMG's perspective is more metaphysical. Drawing from Spengler, each culture has its own (jungian) archetypes but since America is so young, its going through a transformation to break away from its european mother culture. So here Trump represents a kind of native-american Trickster spirit who will break apart the old order and reshape it in his naive yet authentic outlook.
Another part of JMG's model for collapse which is the PMC, the professional managerial class. Basically the way that a bureaucracy becomes self serving after a generation or two and begins to fold in on itself and evolves into a parasitic mafia. Since the PMC is bad, anything that hurts it, ergo Trump, is good.
Afterall, JMG doesnt believe that collapse can be avoided, so strengthening the power of the PMC would be both pointless and objectively bad. This is why it wasnt the first election of Trump where he went off the rails but Covid. Quarantines, mandatory vaccinations, tracking, vaccine passports etc... these were for him all expressions of a PMC take over. As a historian (and an anti-modernist) he is also aware that societies can be hit by terrible diseases and survive. So he joins the culture war and starts peddling crap.
He combines this with a belief in reeincarnation and continuation of consciousness after death to give himself an allowance of callousness and detachment. The suffering of millions in an american fascistic regime and the chaos that would ensue is just part and parcel of the NATURAL process of collapse, no hard feelings.
Not to make it personal but he is also an elderly widower with no children and as far as I know next to no retirement funds, living off his writing. People get weird in that phase of life.
NelsonChunder@reddit
I'm right there with you. Once anyone spews out anything along the lines of "Trump is playing 4D chess," any and ALL respect is gone. I don't care how clever or intelligent I thought they were before, they instantly became a fucking moron with that statement.
That is the ONE thing I give Trump credit for doing. He showed us who all of the hidden and secret assholes, dumbshits and just plain shitty people are out there and in our lives. If you've ever wondered what absolute shittiness may be hiding in someone you've known, there is a very high probability they have shown you exactly who they are these past eight years.
TheHipcrimeVocab@reddit
Exactly how I feel. It really made me question how much of the "collapse" narrative was being pushed by foreign (i.e. Russian) interests all the way back even in the early 2000s. A lot of those online disinformation campaigns have since come to light in the age of Trump. How much was I being manipulated without even knowing it?
A lot of collapse narratives seemed to be infected with other far-right talking points about the "deep state", survivalism, libertarian economics, the gold standard, the national debt, anti-vax, social conservatism, eugenics, and so on--all of which have since become parts of the MAGA movement.
We know that Russia has been deliberately trying to stoke civil unrest in the United States as outlined in Foundations of Geopolitics By Aleksandr Dugin. The Russians are obsessed with the idea of collapse since their own collapse back in the early 1990s and want the same thing to happen to the US as revenge. Recall how many of these topics were discussed on Russia Today back in the day (or RT as it's called now).
I still think the core idea that energy drives industrial civilization, that fossil fuels are the only energy source plentiful and dense enough to run such a civilization, and that those resources are finite, is fundamentally correct. That we are changing the climate by releasing carbon is also correct. That's just physics. But it's sad to see how many of these writers turned out to be frauds. They're now supporting a movement that's obsessed with maximizing fossil fuel production, suppressing alternatives, and claims that climate change is a hoax. Even Nate Hagens, who I think is one of the more legitimate people still working in this arena, has pushed pro-Kremlin narratives repeatedly on his show.
I think it was never about Peak Oil at all. These tended to be angry, white Archie Bunkers upset about a society that was changing too fast for them and leaving them behind. The US was becoming younger and more multicultural and they couldn't handle it, so they glommed on to peak oil as a kind of apocalyptic movement. When their predictions stubbornly failed to come true and their reactionary utopia failed to arrive on timedue to running out of oil, they saw they could achieve the same thing by jumping on the Trump bandwagon. A lot of these guys became prominent anti-vaxers as well (c.f. Chris Martenson). I wrote about Greer here: https://hipcrime.substack.com/p/the-anatomy-of-neo-fascism-part-3.
PrairieFire_withwind@reddit
I hate to be the one to say this but people who grow up believing that the heirarchy that benefited them is the only way to view the world do not even have the capacity to see how their mysogyny influences their thought process.
It was onvious as early as 2009-2012 that they were holding onto their place in the heirarchy more than they were interested in understanding how we got where we are and how we might avoid making the same path available for the next gen. A lot of ego riding on their positions.
Some people, derek jensen comes to mind are more interested in the future and how we might have a future.
HeftyResearch1719@reddit
The infiltrations have been from every insidious angle. Divisiveness within parties, institutions , factions, media, and ultimately among friends and family. It’s a cheap and incredibly effective weapon gone exponential with the invention of social media.
NelsonChunder@reddit
I love your blog, Hipcrime. I read years ago and then kind of faded away after my old tablet died and my bookmarks with it. I'm glad to see you here to remind me that I have some catching up to do on you blog. I hope all is going well for you.
JagBak73@reddit
I met Kunstler in person about four years before Trump's first term. He had a smugness about him that was unsettling and was already on the Agenda 21 conspiracy bandwagon.
I'm not surprised he went full time Trump train-er
NelsonChunder@reddit
I worked in the sustainable planning realm in the 90s after he published The Geography of Nowhere. During that time I attended a conference where Jim spoke and he came off as you said, smug. I asked the organizers how he was to deal with and the kindest reply was "he's difficult." Anyone I've encountered who has dealt with him since then just uses the word asshole, sometimes adding world-class as a qualifier.
JagBak73@reddit
Before meeting Kunstler, I hung out with Michael Ruppert. He was a well meaning, but difficult sort of man. I'd probably be a bit unhinged and jaded too if I exposed the CIA and LAPD then was villainized and attacked as a result...only for that sacrifice to be met with no change and apathy.
It's sad he shot himself in 2014, but I get why
NelsonChunder@reddit
Mike was one of my favorites to listen to. He always had an interesting take on things. I doubt he would have fallen for Trump like the others, and I'd have loved hearing Mike's take on him. The same goes for George Carlin and Gore Vidal.
I believe you about Mike being a difficult sort of man. He just kinda gave off that kind of complex energy, even on podcasts.
JagBak73@reddit
Same with D. Orlov. He turned out to be a real Russophile and Putin lover.
SaxManSteve@reddit (OP)
Wow i didn't know this. I haven't been following his recent commentary. I just re-read the long descent recently, and apart from a couple failed predictions (like fracking) it's a great book.
passenger_now@reddit
Yep - good book. I also enjoyed his fiction "Star's Reach", though hardly a literary masterpiece, it was an interesting read. Some of his writing >10 years ago really gave me new perspectives on things that I still think are valid. I was always surprised and tickled (and wary) that I was actually paying attention to a self-professed Druid and thought he made good sense. Then he stopped making sense.
SweetAlyssumm@reddit
Joseph Tainter documented the collapse of dozens of societies (The Complex of Complex Societies, free online). His data show that collapse (death of many, reversion to smaller, simpler social units, less social stratification and economic specialization, less trade) happens within decades although there may be hundreds of years prior when rich societies can keep things going. That's the period I think we are in right now, I just don't know how many years we have burned through.
The book is long but fairly readable. Read esp. the conceptual chapters. The other chapters are fascinating but have lots of details on individual societies. Tainter points out that collapse is always sociopolitical. It's not just, damn that was was fragile - it's much more complicated.
If there is a silver lining - and I'm not sure there is -- Tainter says that collapse is not always bad. We fear it, but simpler societies use far less energy and resources. Could be a good thing. He also notes that the level of complexity we have today is aberrant in human history. It's not surprising that we can't keep it going. He says, "Eh, we'll go back to simpler societies, unless we blow ourselves up with our weapons, which is possible."
1491Sparrow@reddit
Yeah we will go back to simpler societies, but 7 billion people have to die first. That's quite the bump to get over.
EmbersEtoile@reddit
On the bright side, think of all that fertilizer! ; ;
Saturn_winter@reddit
(4 days late to this sorry, getting caught up from the weekly recap thread)
But this just made me realize if the collapse comes relatively suddenly, either from climate disaster or war... millions of years from now, a new species may evolve and rise again and take our place, except this time we'll be the oil instead of the dinosaurs.
stasi_a@reddit
On the bright side, climate change and pollution will be solved
sharpestcookie@reddit
I'm cool with going back to a simpler society. It's the whole "billions of people will die horribly or be subjugated in the process" part that I think people fear.
We had the chance to avoid this fear, but most of humanity is like a child that doesn't believe a hot stove will burn them until they touch it for themselves. They prefer to believe that the highly skilled people warning us are stupid liars who don't know anything.
Anti- and pseudo-intellectuals run headlong into learning things the hard way, while the rest of us are being dragged along for the ride.
gentian_red@reddit
There's no "going back". CO2 concentration will cause climate collapse that will scour the earth clean, and even if some humans do survive they won't function in such a high CO2 environment either, the body can't cope
throwaway13486@reddit
Yeah, this is the part the ""quiet collapse"" folks leave out.
SweetAlyssumm@reddit
I'm not cool with the billions part either. But we have painted ourselves into a corner. Science has been warning about this for a very long time. The powerful made their choices. I don't think nature is going to give us an umpteenth chance.
stasi_a@reddit
Mother nature can finally breathe a sigh of relief
diedlikeCambyses@reddit
He got Easter Island wrong though.
SailorJay_@reddit
Joseph Tainter?
diedlikeCambyses@reddit
Easter Island collapsed due to rats and contact with westerners to put it crudely.
vegansandiego@reddit
Yes! The old story that the original human inhabitants cut down all the trees and destroyed the environment aren't true. But for some reason, it's still taught in some books because it's such a good cautionary tale. False, but good.
diedlikeCambyses@reddit
Yes
kylerae@reddit
Very true! It is now known if you look at their economic health, the Roman Empire's strongest years of their economy would have been roughly 10-20 years before collapse was evident to the average person. There would have been signs and things becoming strained for a few hundred years prior, but to most people things would have appeared to be fine, even great, until one day it wasn't. I found this discussion about the collapse of Rome intensely fascinating! The authors of 'Why Empires Fall' (who are being interviewed here) state our best years as a civilization could be argued to be the late 90s. If you like Joseph Tainter's book I highly recommend this book and this interview for sure!
LuveeEarth74@reddit
Yeah, I came of age I suppose in the late nineties (24 in 1998) and it was seriously another world. Like living on a different planet. I graduated high school and college (96) with much much optimism. Granted I grew up in the US mid Atlantic corridor in a middle class/affluent area.
Kaining@reddit
Seriously, i always thought that the Matrix was a science fiction movie but no, not really when it depicted "peak" human society as the 90's cubicle work environement :/
throwaway13486@reddit
Science fiction failed us. Fantasy failed us. We are living in the ashes of the dreams of the future.
traveledhermit@reddit
At least we still have cubicles!
festoon_the_dragoon@reddit
There was an idea Tainter discussed that I felt was useful to remember when observing a society's collapse. It was that, during a collapse, there can be occasional periods of growth or renewal as society attempt to correct things. Even when historians look at a gradual period of decline, there an be brief periods of growth or rebuilding or whatever.
I think the example he used in the book with the Maya was the quality of paint or other building materials used. They had monuments or something built to each new leader if I remember correctly. So it was clear to see which leaders tried to respond to collapse even though it didn't ultimately stop the process.
I always think of this when watching world events. Even when we witness the emergence of some positive force or person, the overall trend seems to continue towards collapse.
hiddendrugs@reddit
Similar to Collapse by Jared Diamond, another good anthology.
TheInitiativeInn@reddit
That last line hits so very, very hard.
TheHipcrimeVocab@reddit
Kind of ironic to quote Greer when he's been a far-right reactionary Trump supporter for years now.
Rossdxvx@reddit
This is it. A human lifetime barely registers. For instance, take me. I was born under Reagan, who cut the top tax rate for the wealthy, deregulated the economy, and kicked off the counter-revolutionary consolidation of wealth at the very top that is so egriously out of control today. In many ways, collapse has been playing out for my entire lifetime. Clinton, the two Bushes, Obama and Biden, and Trump. No one has righted this ship. No one will. It has only been going down, down, and down.
Likewise, I realize that things will never get better, at least in my lifetime. I may live to see the end, or not. But, in any case, I am right in the middle of this descent.
Hilda-Ashe@reddit
IIRC the Mayans never really figured out the wheel or beasts of burden, so it can be assumed that their intensive corn farming were done with only human hands. And yet even that was enough to induce collapse of their civilization.
Now imagine the modern farming, with its machinery and its fossil fuel dependence and its profit-maximizing algorithm and its global networks. The modern collapse will not be localized to any one area on this planet Earth.
gonCrazy13@reddit
Cry more
collapse-ModTeam@reddit
Hi, gonCrazy13. Thanks for contributing. However, your comment was removed from /r/collapse for:
Please refer to our subreddit rules for more information.
You can message the mods if you feel this was in error, please include a link to the comment or post in question.
BluebirdJolly7970@reddit
Check the 50501 website for a protest near you on- happening on April 5
TinyDogsRule@reddit
The fatal flaw of the Muppet on the WH is that he foolishly believes the rest of the world needs us. The world is proving that they do not. He over played his hand. Dude had a pair of twos and bet all in against a royal flush.
The real gut punch is that Harris would have still had us on the path of slow and steady collapse until Mother Nature dealt the final blow, but we decided collapse now was better. It is hard to imagine what the world will look like in 4 years, but the US will be thrown away like a used condom. And yet we will continue to do nothing.
Americans are failures on every level. We deserve what is coming. Much of the rest of the world does not.
SweetAlyssumm@reddit
No politician anywhere in the world is addressing collapse. No international think tank or intergovernmental organization thinks we need massive change. We are all failures, globally. Anyone anywhere who gets some money buys a car, eats meat, aspires to travel. We've all bought into the capitalist bullshit.
The problem is not the rise/fall of the US or anywhere else. It's that we won't put the brakes on an out of control economy. No one will escape; the global economy is just that, global.
sherilaugh@reddit
Green Party in Canada does. But no one votes for them cuz money.
SweetAlyssumm@reddit
Well, I'm glad at least one actual political party takes collapse seriously. Maybe they are laying groundwork for when things get worse - they have thought through some of the problems.
sherilaugh@reddit
Liberal party has at least a semblance of some climate change policies. Carbon capture and all that. But they are being made out to be the villains for doing it. I really don’t think people get how close to absolutely screwed we are, or how absolutely screwed we already are.
I’ve put this down to life expectancy honestly. Like I’m mid life and starting to really notice how much the world has changed since I was a kid. But think, 200 years ago North America was almost entirely forests. If we had longer life spans we would have noticed it a lot more.
jaymickef@reddit
They're not saying they are addressing collapse but they are by closing borders and securing the supply lines of what's needed. You can see the new borders of US/Russia forming now. Their actions show they believe they can wall themselves off from the rest of the world and survive.
vegansandiego@reddit
Yep, it's the classic mad scramble because they think (they might have info we don't) that shit's going bad real quick. Grab all you can whilst you can. Fuck order, chaos reigns in this scenario. I hope I'm wrong, but it's the only thing I can think of with all of the recent crazy.
jaymickef@reddit
Just the public information we have now points to very serious food shortages in the future, if you believe the information. My feeling is that the leaders do but not enough of the public does to actually start adapting now. There is either going to be chaos now if attempts to make big enough changes matter or there will be chaos soon as the changes really start ramping up on their own. For all the talk of authortarianism and people being controlled I think the leaders know their own limitations when it comes to controlling people.
TinyDogsRule@reddit
Sure, but the US chose global collapse now. It was a choice that could have easily been avoided if only billionaires did not need to become trillionaires.
Jukka_Sarasti@reddit
These cretins have been fed a never-ending diet of American Exceptionalism, Manifest Destiny, and "Murica! Fuck yeah!" and believe it completely and unironically. Their ignorance was, unsurprisingly, co-opted by monied interests and now here we are.
vegansandiego@reddit
Yeah, which makes the whole "patriotic education" goals of the American regime even more silly. Kids will be fed even more of this crap. It's a positive feedback loop. And those are never a good thing
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_feedback
MangledPumpkin@reddit
We drank deeply of the propaganda that is all around us and are going to have a hard lesson to learn.
TheRealKison@reddit
Please don’t drag Muppets into this, they’ve done nothing wrong.
Deus_is_Mocking_Us@reddit
Fozzie the Bear is a monster IYKYK
TheRealKison@reddit
Wakka, wakka!
insane_steve_ballmer@reddit
The rest of the world DOES need the US though. And I say that as a european. Why do you think world leaders are falling head over heels trying to please him? Europe is in desperate need of US weapons in Ukraine and continued NATO safety guarantees. And the tariffs will hurt europe’s economy badly. US is a huge trading partner. And if Trump chooses to not enact tariffs on non-EU countries, it will create a huge incentive to leave the EU.
Same goes for China. Half their economy is built on exporting to the US
Repulsive-Floor7919@reddit
Europe blindly followed the US into yet another catastrophic and easily avoidable war, even after the US destroyed Europe’s own oil pipelines to make them dependent on American natural gas. Seems like you don’t quite realize that you’ve had the rug pulled out from under you. This kind of blind loyalty to NATO will guarantee that Europe becomes Trump’s footstool
insane_steve_ballmer@reddit
True, European leaders have realized the jig is up and are planning massive defense investments, but it’ll take 10+ years to build up Europe’s defenses and arms industries again. In the here and now we still desperately need the US.
As for the trade tariffs, well compare it to the situation with Russia. The EU completely cut ties with Russia after the invasion. It was doable, but still extremely painful. The first winter without Russian gas was the most sudden economic shock I’ve witnessed in my life
stasi_a@reddit
Not if AfD or LePen come to power
Repulsive-Floor7919@reddit
Do you have Stockholm syndrome? You still think you desperately need the people who are fucking you over and leading you to catastrophe?
collapse-ModTeam@reddit
Hi, Repulsive-Floor7919. Thanks for contributing. However, your comment was removed from /r/collapse for:
Please refer to our subreddit rules for more information.
You can message the mods if you feel this was in error, please include a link to the comment or post in question.
insane_steve_ballmer@reddit
As I wrote, in the near term, yes. Ukraine desperately needs US arms that Europe, at this point in time, cannot supply
infamouszgbgd@reddit
Ukraine does need any help it can get, on account of that whole little war thing they got going on.
The rest of Europe, not so much.
insane_steve_ballmer@reddit
Pretty much every country in Europe is supporting Ukraine immensely and banking on them to win. Russias invasion threatens all of Europe and we’re all terrified of a Russian victory
infamouszgbgd@reddit
Nah that's just something the politicians say so European defense contractors can get more money.
insane_steve_ballmer@reddit
Ok so A/ we don’t need the US and B/ we don’t need our own defense either? You are smart boy, ever considered a career in the FSB?
infamouszgbgd@reddit
Don't act like a dumbass, that's not what I said.
rematar@reddit
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/insight-therapy/201705/psychological-science-says-trump-is-four-year-old
My_G_Alt@reddit
Yep the card analogy actually works well here. The US held the largest deck, sure. But if each country they fucked over in this recent barrage holds just a few cards, they can all come together and assemble their very own deck.
espomar@reddit
r/Collapse_eh
Slutty_Avocado26@reddit
The world is scary right now.
SaxManSteve@reddit (OP)
Another relevant passage from John Michael Greer's book
PrairieFire_withwind@reddit
This is such a lovely, warm, comforting thought that has zero acknowlegement of our increasingly frequent fires, floods, straight line winds, hurricanes, did i mention fire? And flood?
It gets harder and harder to hold onto anything or build anything stable more and more
Oh, i forgot. Soil degredation, drought, ecosystem coming apart at the seams
Marv3ll616@reddit
Have a plot of land, even if it is in the middle of nowhere, learn basic skills like: - keep knowledge well preserved (books, real books), - keep seeds, learn to cultivate the land, you don't need to become a full time farmer, you need to learn to cultivate, to plant potatos, create chicken and goats (for example). - learn practical skills, like how to sew, how to fix a pipe, an electrical connection, how to build a fence, and fix your car.
How to better insulate your home from the cold and excessive heat, how to get water and treat it, how to properly cook, bake, and use the food remains for compost and use on your land.
How to properly protect yourself and your family. Learn to understand how people think, work, behave, specially during crisis.
Make it a hobby, make it fun to learn. If nothing happens you will be able to teach others about this, how to live and survive.
jaymickef@reddit
You can look at pretty much any third world country and see how this will go. Haiti, Somalia, etc..
Marv3ll616@reddit
If a big country went through what they did it would be much, much worse....
jaymickef@reddit
Do you mean there would be more gangs and more ex-military and cops roaming around and taking whatever they want.
stasi_a@reddit
Nukes
jaymickef@reddit
Which cities do you think would be hit in the first strike? And the counter-strike? How many cities would get hit, do you think?
Marv3ll616@reddit
In that case whatever cities they want to hit, from a big city to a small city located nowhere just to show that they have it and can use it.
jaymickef@reddit
I wonder how they will choose targets. And what the effects will actually be. Once there is global famine cities will be in pretty bad shape even before they get bombed.
Marv3ll616@reddit
Useless to think about it, we don't know what will happen, how will be in charge, what groups might rebel and so on
jaymickef@reddit
yes, that's true. And we usually speculate it will be part of a war but nukes aren't tactical, military weapons so their use will be, as you say, the realm of fanfiction.
Marv3ll616@reddit
That I think is harder, every nation has a lot of security measures to avoid the use of nukes by third parties....
Marv3ll616@reddit
Of course.
PHL2287@reddit
I love this, particularly the last little bit about making it fun
Marv3ll616@reddit
Talking from experience, I learn better if I also have fun with it, otherwise it becomes a job and less constructive, at least for myself
designatedcrasher@reddit
Fantastic news I knew trump would fuck it up
monkeysknowledge@reddit
We’re revoking green cards from people who protested genocide. We’re sending people to foreign death camps without even pretending to give a shit about due process. We are no longer part of the free world.
Nadie_AZ@reddit
I think the idea that the US was a member of the 'free world' was just propaganda. I'm sure the Vietnamese, native Americans, black Americans, Iraqis, Afghanis and many many many others would agree.
I remember George W Bush Jr, may he rot in a hell worse than hell when he does kick it. Him and Dick Cheney both. They blew open the door for where we are.
beard_lover@reddit
I was thinking about the whole WMD debacle recently and how consent to the invasion of Iraq was so easily manufactured. Everyone was behind it, it seemed, and the war felt inevitable. Lessons were learned from that and we see the results over and over again. The media repeats lies until people think it’s a huge deal, like transgender athletes. The Bush years started a real decline in America, they ruined all the hope of the 90s and made the world scarier.
slayingadah@reddit
Y'all. That particular spot in hell belongs to Ronald Reagan.
DeusExMcKenna@reddit
He can share it with Bush, Cheney and Kissinger.
new2bay@reddit
God damn it. You had me thinking Dick Cheney had died. I was so disappointed when Google said he was still alive! 😂
DeusExMcKenna@reddit
That’s a day I will celebrate. I have a bottle of 15 year old Irish for the occasion.
new2bay@reddit
Me the day Kissinger died:
DeusExMcKenna@reddit
It was truly a glorious day. How that man lived so long is still beyond my comprehension.
MangledPumpkin@reddit
Well hell didn't want Kissinger.
DeusExMcKenna@reddit
Wonder what those negotiations looked like, lol.
MangledPumpkin@reddit
It's going to be a good day when that heartless son of a bitch dies.
Dire88@reddit
Yea, well our museums and education systems will say the US was exceptional and none of that bad stuff happened.
So we'll be leaders of the real free world alongside our true friends like Russia and Best Korea.
/s obviously. Kinda sorta. Fuck I hate this timeline.
stasi_a@reddit
Well, history is always written by winners so
ibjanhenrik@reddit
Yep. Turns out, that shining city on a hill that the US has always pretended to be ended up just being a mirage presented to clueless Americans that masked the rot that hid beneath the surface. Just a facade of freedom built on stolen land that has been sustained by the exploitation and genocide of the poor, minorities, and the global south as a whole. All propped up by easy to digest propaganda. But what else is new?
gc3@reddit
You mean Emerald City, ruled by the great wizard, Oz?
An american story if there ever was one
monkeysknowledge@reddit
Yeah that's fair.
-aarcas@reddit
Stop peddling this "free world" shit, it was always a myth
Humanist_2020@reddit
For those of us who have no desire to survive the coming zombie apocalypse…should we buy a gun so we can end our lives? Stock pills?
I am serious. I am in my 60’s and was born in LA. My parents and grandparents too. I wasn’t allowed to play in the sandbox cause it was dirty. I love my soft living. I have read too many dystopian novels to have any desire to “survive.”
What should those of us who want to be relieved of life in the time of collapse do? Will it be like in Children of Men and there will be kits for us to use? Or, like 28 days later, and to each their own? Or the Road?
infamouszgbgd@reddit
It's not that kind of collapse, you're just turning into a third world country.
If you can adapt to a lower standard of living, more corruption, less educated neighbors parroting the party line no matter what, higher crime rates and no hope for a better future then you'll be fine, you just won't like it very much.
Humanist_2020@reddit
Oh- we already are a 3rd world country for millions of people.
Plus, I am not white and was born in Watts, Los Angeles, a long time ago. I know this country for what it really is, and has always been. I know about high crime, tent cities, hungry kids (I was one if them back in the 1970’s). I know about never going to the doctor or the dentist.
Native Americans have high crime, missing girls, no running water, no internet, no electricity. The feds are supposed to help them- but of course- they dont. When the Navajo asked for ppe for covid, the feds sent them body bags.
My great great uncle was kidnapped and hung by the kkk for teaching other Black people to read. In the early 1900’s, My great grandparents had to leave Mississippi or they would have been kidnapped and hung-with no justice.
This is only a new America for immigrants since the 1990’s, and white americans.
Black people are murdered by law enforcement all the time, for being Black in America . It’s a crime to be Black in America-In 2025.
TheRealKison@reddit
Mix of Children of Men and Soylent Green. I’m betting we’ll see the normalization of assisted suicide, with half a lifetime.
Humanist_2020@reddit
Not even assisted. It will be self administered kit.
Soylent green is better than Fallout or the Road. I don’t want to be those people kept alive for food.
ckFuNice@reddit
It's 'normal' now
"..Medically assisted suicide in Canada reached a record high in 2023, according to a report from the United States’ northern neighbor.
Government data from Canada found, in 2023, medically assisted suicides in the country soared to every 1 in 20, accounting for 15,343 — or 4.7% — of deaths last year. That marks a 15.8% spike from the year before.
Those who took their lives via medically assisted suicide used Canada’s Medical Assistance in Dying (MAID) program, which has overseen the deaths of 60,301 people since it became legal in 2016...."
https://cbn.com/news/health/canada-admits-staggering-number-countrys-deaths-last-year-were-assisted-suicide
Master_Honey549@reddit
We as a country are in a bar with clock deliberately set ahead by ten minutes and which closes within the hour at 2AM. The regulars know this and always make sure to get one last round in & to settle their tabs before 1:19AM actual time before “LAST CALL” is announced for all to hear at 1:30 bar time and thus beginning the scramble.
While time runs out ahead of itself, the regulars sit and watch the chaos while sipping smugly to themselves thinking themselves as geniuses and not opportunistic brats. I’m positive they think they’re cleverly outwitting the system - but don’t acknowledge they’re even more addicted to it than us lay folk who mostly remain unliquidated & therefore unaware of the market.
Once they ruin everything they then get nothing more in return. I’m obstinate enough to sit and laugh through the collapse even if I don’t look forward to the stark decline in society. I just want to see what the dollar can buy when it’s rendered dead by their own ways.
Taokan@reddit
I think what will be more interesting, if we do see collapse in my lifetime, will be to see what happens in the end with crypto, especially OG bitcoin. There's clearly folks willing to hedge their bets to the tune of near 100k dollars/bitcoin on this somehow being the bottlecaps of a post-collapse society. I just can't picture a functional, global internet and block chain in a new world where society has reached Mad Max / Walking Dead levels of screwed up.
vegansandiego@reddit
It's a joke. You need infrastructure to use it. Who the hell is going to want it when shit hits the fan? Or even declines a little. I used to think it was a good idea. Until I really tried to use it, read a couple of books about it, and lost some due to fraud. Yeah, got rid of everything and now just working on hard skills and relationships :)
Josketobben@reddit
Technically one can transmit transactions over radio, crypto's underlying protocol is not absolutely coupled to the internetwork.
Nevertheless, the broader reliance on technology remains a weakness.
P90BRANGUS@reddit
This. So much this.
My grandma even, before she passed, was spouting to us about the dangers of EMP's--electcro-magnetic pulses--which is a weapon that can just wipe out all electronics in a given area. As if we wouldn't see that put to use in a WWIII situation, or just war situations.
One scenario would be that detonating one of the biggest warheads over, I read Southern Canada would knock out electronic devices over the continental united states.
There are also just regular EMP weapons from what I'm reading. See here.
Additionally, major servers and communication infrastructure could easily be targeted with conventional weapons in a war. Especially if someone had an interest in destabilizing online currency.
These tech fascists, opportunists, messianists, believers, I don't think they realize how vulnerable tech infrastructure is.
Things like national loyalty, unity, shared traditions, etc. are more valuable. As well as farmland, systems of governance. Good old fashioned gold. Minerals, raw materials. The means to defend them. Functioning society that people actually care about.
Master_Honey549@reddit
The only two investments worth making are lead & brass.
Zestyclose-Ad-9420@reddit
im sorry but the people who play this game the most arent dumb enough to think the dollar itself is wealth.
playing this game well means they already have a certain mindset, a certain sharp and unflexible personality of winner takes all. once they realise that the dollar no longer represents wealthy they will jump to crypto and when crypto falls they will jump to gold, and when gold falls they will jump to guns. if they play the game long enough eventually we will back to herding people at gun point into slavery, each body its own currency.
EatMyShortzZzZzZ@reddit
"leader of the free world" is a bold title for a nation that has been arming and funding a genocide for over a year.
Jackspital@reddit
They've always armed and funded genocides and pulled down left wing governments. It's just on full show now.
XxCozmoKramerxX@reddit
And the entire nation was founded on genocide and slavery. When you realize that the root problem is colonialism and conquest, you learn that Trump alone is not the villain. It is much sharper and deeper than him, and the story of civilization has been a constant battle between colonizer vs. Indigenous for thousands of years.
P90BRANGUS@reddit
I think a lot of it is that, with the internet and growing awareness of people over time, the national myth is really falling apart. The more history books are written excavating narratives of people we haven't heard from, examining things in non-white supremacist lights, the more you realize, it was not really ever an ethical enterprise. The national myth is falling apart. More and more young people don't relate to it. More and more wouldn't fight for it. With BLM and everything, it's harder and harder to maintain the illusion.
I think the Trumpist phenomenon is like a narcissist who knows their secret is about to come out, and they go berserk, absolutely insane. Will do anything to try to stop it, act like a child even. I imagine there is a shame their both in the leader and the follower base that they don't have the emotional capacity to cope with.
The last threads of American Patriarchal Colonialist White Supremacy, barely hanging on. (Not well at that).
Junior_Mood_9425@reddit
"Leader of the free world" is a bold title for a nation that has been... well, doing this shit. "Hegemon of 'The West™'" would be a mor appropriate term.
Deus_is_Mocking_Us@reddit
We meant "free of brown people." It's a common misunderstanding.
bristlybits@reddit
leading the world into hell is still leading it
xerxesgm@reddit
This sounds more like the collapse of the US, not the world. Less US domination may arguably be better for the world over all. I don't say this lightly, since I'm American and it will be painful for me.
NovarianRule@reddit
No it won't. The US led geopolitical order has seen the longest period of relative peace (80 years of no great powers going to war directly) and the greatest expansion of prosperity and rising standards of living around the world. Like ... Yes, the USA has absolutely done some fucked up shit along the way, but you can be sure it's better than what the empires of the 1800s were up to, and is better than a tripolar world where Russia and China are able to dictate within their spheres of influence.
You should be proud of what your country was. You need to be, so that you can fight to get that back.
BoltMyBackToHappy@reddit
Like an abusive spouse cutting you off from friends and family, "See I told you they all hated you. Now you need ME even more!" So sad to watch in real time.
It's only been three months...
AliensUnderOurNoses@reddit
The entire time under Trump's rule has been as though America was in an arranged marriage with an abusive, insecure spouse, and the abuse escalates, as it always does.
nanapancakethusiast@reddit
I’m not trying to be rude but… as an outsider looking in… “arranged marriage” doesn’t make any sense in this context.
A majority of you either outright voted for this or were too lazy and apathetic to vote against it (aka voting in favour of it in a roundabout way).
This is less “arranged marriage” and more just blatantly going back to your abusive, insecure spouse you already divorced once because you’re too dumb/scared/both not to, and then being surprised when the abuse escalates.
SandRush2004@reddit
This will reddit so people will say anyone who voted for Trump is some gathering of ist's and act like it's some mystery that Trump won, when the reality of society shows time and time again to not be reflected accurately on reddit, aka redditors circle jerk themselves about Trump then are shocked when he gets voted for
blodo_@reddit
I don't think that gives a good view of what actually happened. A more correct to reality viewpoint would be: America being given a fake "choice" for their arranged marriage: a dumb paternalistic brute or a slightly prettier dumb paternalistic brute. The third choice is to try to escape, but in that case one of the dumb brutes just rides after you, captures you, and forces you into the marriage anyway.
Americans never really had a choice to begin with, to pretend as if they did have a choice is to give unearned credence to their completely broken political system that masquerades itself as a "democracy" but in reality is anything but.
Rudybus@reddit
Choices are sometimes constrained, it doesn't make them not a choice.
You can't (realistically/currently) choose not to be governed by a puppet of the capitalist class.
Within those constraints, you could still have chosen not to be governed by a fascistic grifter.
blodo_@reddit
And what I am saying is that the choice presented in the last election was a choice between a fascist grifter and a genocidal flunky, and both choices were morally unpalatable even within the constraints of capitalism. In that respect I am not surprised at how many chose not to vote at all.
Even if the flunky got elected, you'd see trump back in 2028. And even if trump died, the republican party is now the trump party with trumpian fascists vying for elections all over the place. The democrats are incapable of offering any sort of meaningful alternative, and when they are in power they do nothing to roll back the far right excesses of the previous government. A third party cannot get in because politics in america are hard gated by money and media ownership after citizens united. This is in many ways unfortunately a foregone conclusion.
Rudybus@reddit
That just takes you right back to 'Americans vote in a fascistic grifter'.
I don't get your point about 'genocidal flunky' either - assuming you're talking about the genocide of Palestinians, you think it'll be easier to do with anti-Israel protesters being literally deported and a president who 'yes and's everything Netanyahu does? At worst, that's just not a differentiating factor.
Like, politics at the national level is about harm reduction. Nobody will get within a mile of a candidacy if they're trying to actually change entrenched power structures, so making one's vote contingent on that achieves nothing but changing what one gets from 'crumbs' to 'nothing'.
Not sure if you're actually making the argument for non voting though, or just relaying it, apologies if not. Nihilism or accelerationism are just bugging me after the last two months. Society is going down but we don't need to be kicking at each other while it does.
blodo_@reddit
I do agree with this, however only to a certain point. When we are at the point of closing our eyes to a genocide on account of national politics, that point has been reached and it is time to protest the whole system. I also heavily, heavily disagree about one point and that is blaming the voters. The real group to blame for this state of affairs are the democrats who have offered such a mindbogglingly shit alternative that they lost a winnable election on mostly a single issue. Will they learn from this? Probably not, but I do not fault society for saying "NO" to the ratchet effect.
I want to be clear: I do believe people should vote. I agree with everyone who was ushering people to vote democrats down ballot during the election. But I also agree with all the people who threw away their vote for the presidency, they had an impossible choice in front of them and took the most moral way out of it. I also think that on account of this election a lot of actually decent democrats are standing in lower positions that people should pay attention to. Republicans took over the government by starting from the bottom, and that's what people on the left should be doing now.
AppearanceHeavy6724@reddit
It really did not matter during elections what Trump is doing now with deportation of students, what actually mattered is what was going on then - blinking crocodile tears about Palestinian children and then overriding congress for delivery of weapons, tight grip on all democratic media CNN and other prostitutes to not show reality of Gaza etc.
Many could not vote for dems because if they knew Trump will be worse for Palestine, but actually voting for dems and then them continuing bombing Gaza would be perceived much more like tarnishing you hands in blood, the letting Trump win by their own inaction.
Rudybus@reddit
The dude's already been president, we saw Project 2025, we saw the shit he was saying on the trail, we've seen how he views anyone who isn't white.
Here's some examples from the first term.
I can't believe a reasonable person would look at all that and go 'hmm maybe he'll stand up against Israel's actions better than the other guys / there's no difference'.
AppearanceHeavy6724@reddit
You still do not understand (I suspect deliberately so) my point though: even if he was expected to be worse for Palestine than dems, there was and still is reasonable expectation for the difference to be insignificant; meanwhile no one wanted to vote for any type of war criminal, neither proven nor aspiring. If they put Kamala earlier the was some chance probably, but other than that, no one wanted to step into fecal matter dems were and still are.
Rudybus@reddit
I will just draw attention back to the comment you were responding to.
boomaDooma@reddit
>Americans never really had a choice to begin with
Yes they did but they had to make it 20 years ago.
HeftyResearch1719@reddit
The choice was made before the civil war ended, perhaps when Lincoln was shot. There was a need for a second constitutional convention necessary to build rule of law not inherently based on compromising with enslavement and genocides. Most nations rebuild with a new constitution when the previous one fails so utterly it results in civil war. The worship of the most ancient constitution in the world is insidious.
blodo_@reddit
Not even a different outcome to the election 20 years ago could've stopped this. Maybe delayed it at best. The road to complete political dominance of money was set up long before that, and the inability to constitutionally reform this is a problem that has been passed on from the founders. American electoral system is set up for exactly the type of fuckery that we're seeing now with how fundamentally undemocratic it is.
semoriil@reddit
If it was just Trump himself... But the whole Congress is packed with his supporters and enablers. That's not a coincidence, that's really a choice. If not that Trump would be restrained. Checks and balances, you know... The whole system is hacked by now.
blodo_@reddit
We could sit here for an hour discussing how that came to be. But long story short is: it is hard to make a rational choice when you are actively deprived of both objective truths and education. Money also makes a difference, as do the courts. The republican party made it their project to pack the courts with as many far right judges as possible, who then get to decide on political things such as the results of primaries. There's also a lot of gerrymandering in the US to enable republican candidates to win without a real popular vote.
The more you look into it, the more it becomes clear how fundamentally fucked it is and how undemocratic it is to boot.
mikareno@reddit
We still haven't ruled out election rigging though, so it may be closer to a kidnapping. But you're right about the folks who voted for him or not at all. F* those people.
throwaway13486@reddit
cough bomb threats in blue state voting centers cough
IndependentBoth2831@reddit
Stop it, you sound like the MAGA crowd 🙄
Josketobben@reddit
Unlike previous time there's plenty of evidence of all sorts. Statistical, procedural anomalies, plus Trump and Musk on cam basically bragging about it, even. Check out r/somethingiswrong2024 for details.
The reluctance to risk looking like them and facing others' rolling eyes might have closed a window of opportunity to prevent the atrocities of late.
mikareno@reddit
Thank you for this. I'm not in the habit of bookmarking every political article I read so I can prove points to others, lol, so I appreciate you linking the reddit sub. That may even be where I read about the drop-off rate anomalies in swing states.
Here's another good link, with visual data:
https://smartelections.us/dropoff
IndependentBoth2831@reddit
Show the proof then
Josketobben@reddit
Haven't kept track lately, because it's become a bit of a detail to tack onto the entire list of what's been going wrong. But here's a start:
https://spoonamore.substack.com/p/duty-to-warn-letter-to-vp-harris&ved=2ahUKEwjX9sP5kq-MAxVqSaQEHdVxGzw4ChAWegQIOxAB&usg=AOvVaw11nQuGwn48V3alOdEEn6-8
Undead-Writer@reddit
I literally couldn't have voted as I recently moved and didn't have the correct papers for my new state to vote... I woulda voted third party, but unfortunately I was too slow on the bureaucracy side of things
whereismysideoffun@reddit
If your third party was the Green Party, your vote would be equally for Russia as voting for Trump. Jill Stein is a Russian asset.
AppearanceHeavy6724@reddit
The biggest Russian Asset (indirectly so) turned out to be Democrat Party, which was so beholden to Israel (which rubbed liberals wrong way) on one side and completely ignored bad border security (which rubbed conservatives) wrong way.
One thing you do not understand though, people who voted Green Party would not have voted for Kamala, even if they knew what kind of circus the second term of Trump would be. Not a single person would vote for likes of war criminal Blinken, those who gaslit Bernie supporters in 2016 etc.
olijake@reddit
Do you mind sharing a source for your claims?
whereismysideoffun@reddit
whereismysideoffun@reddit
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/ncna742696
You can find articles where she clearly says her goals with being in the ticket are to take votes from Hilary. Not policy promotion, but to take votes. To further that, Stein/Green Party only show up for presidential elections for the shake up, but are absent for the time between putting zero effort in policy changes or getting any local or state footholds.
Thinktobreathe@reddit
The two party system hates ranked choice ballots, the only way to actual representative leadership.
ThatsFae@reddit
Only one party, the Republican Party, has banned ranked choice voting in states they control and only one party, the Democratic Party, supports ranked choice voting by passing legislation for it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranked-choice_voting_in_the_United_States
Undead-Writer@reddit
Yeah, I know
CircumventingTheBan_@reddit
Even if there was vote manipulation, it wasn't so vast as to account for the whole crowd of non-voters, a full 1/3 of those eligible. So even if that vote count isn't real, it's not fake enough to discount a majority of Americans either directly supporting, or being indifferent to, Trump.
eliottruelove@reddit
Arranged marriages typically are arranged by the older population i.e parents, aunts, uncles, grandparents etc who don't have to live with the consequences, so it does somewhat fit with how much boomers sold out the next generations.
HeftyResearch1719@reddit
Blaming boomers is a diversion. Few boomers made a conscious choice in the matter. The majority may not have questioned the propaganda they were daily spoon-fed, but one who is being gaslit doesn’t usually realize the extent until it’s too late. Making an age group responsible takes the accountability away from the strategists, architects and puppet masters.
Similar to blaming people who didn’t recycle enough for climate change. The Recycling idea itself was cooked up as a diversion to blame the victims. .
eliottruelove@reddit
You make great points, but there is no denying the abused often themselves become abusers, and narcissistic, selfish, and gaslighting tendencies can be passed on to the victims.
Arranged marriages are almost always for financial gain and material prosperity; ignoring feelings, sentiment, and emotional/mental/spiritual well being; and so too has so many decisions in government and in personal life been made in the past 40 years.
Obviously not every boomer is to blame, but there is no denying the cycle of being "married to your abuser" is perpetuated once again by that generation.
The counterculture spirit of rebellion and revolution seen in the US during the late 60s and 70s gave way to apathy, corporatism, and greed in the 80s as many sold out and went from Hippie to Yuppie and prioritized profits over people. They went from idealistic to materialistic. They too were beholden to the gaslighting and conditioning of the previous generations.
The toxic decisions and attitudes made for them by their parents and grandparents were the things they rebelled against and yet the means to the ends were the very thing they adopted when they had the chance, but instead of learning the difference and choosing to become better, they became just like those they rebelled against.
The difference nowadays is the older generations used to listen to qualified younger adults, but now the Boomer generation have overall disregarded and discredited anyone younger than them who are not sycophants; and they have held on to power in business, bureacracy, and government far longer than is sustainable.
Having arguably 3 generations without any real decision making power in government or business in a row (Gen X, Millennials, and Gen Z) has had extreme effects.
For a contrast many Founding Fathers were younger than 40 years old in 1776, with several qualifying as Founding Teenagers or Twentysomethings.
So your point definitely stands about not taking accountability away from the strategists, architects and puppet masters, but puppeteers do need marionettes to achieve the death by a thousand cuts so that they can't be said to personally be holding the knife.
Each cut was when those of a certain generation who achieved the freedom to resist and experience excess were marionetted into believing that each excess was harmless and victimless and they needed to double down and become even more "great", and if anything they were the victim who needed to punch down and kick the ladder out from underneath them to prevent "greatness" for anyone else.
And this is now systemic. Entitled people, whether Boomers or from other generations, rationalize and justify saying that their individual "cut" is meaningless, and thus any little cure (like recycling) is meaningless as well. The dissolutionment digs even deeper when statistics come out that their papercut pails in comparison to the axe wound of industrial pollution and corporate excess.
Even when people become self aware and realize they have been deceived, they can do little to nothing to cut the strings.
It's disheartening but the antidote to the poison is the flipping on its head of the very mindset that made the majority marionettes in the first place: making it personal. Individual acts of kindness and empathy rather than just performative acts of activism. Practice what you preach and preach it in unhypocritically.
HeftyResearch1719@reddit
Good observation, while depressing.
eliottruelove@reddit
It is actually crazy that in one to one human interaction, without the baggage of complicated family relationships or other familiarity, how we can agree on more than we disagree.
The true line is empathy and how they view it.
When Empathy is sin; oppression is justified, prejudice is systemic, atrocities are deemed necessary, and tyranny is inevitable.
And so it goes that those who are Empathetically Numb manipulate the empathetically selective to oppress the empathetically generous.
AliensUnderOurNoses@reddit
In my analogy, reasonable, anti-Trump people are the demoralized person looking for a marriage of love, Trump voters are the shitty parents, non-voters are the passive family members who enable the parents, and Trump is the abusive spouse whose essential nature was known before the marriage, but who only becomes worse as the marriage comes to pass.
HeftyResearch1719@reddit
Abusers always escalate after the papers are signed and they get access to the trust fund.
BoltMyBackToHappy@reddit
"Trust us! You'll be better off with this person even if you absolutely hate them right now" kind of vibes, for sure!
(Best luck to you or anyone going through that first hand, o.m.f.g.)
P90BRANGUS@reddit
Trump confessed this month (and from what I read, not for the first time?) it was rigged. It was rigged. Mark my words. It will come out one day. All the signs are there. Trump campaign broke into an election office and voting machines, ran off with inner workings of software and hardware. Elon has said that if Trump didn't win, that he was f***ed. Trump was running to stay out of prison too.
Basically we are relying on the moral purity of two men with both motive and opportunity to rig an election. We know they had help from the Russians, with many polling stations closed on election day due to bomb threats, in democratic leaning areas.
They pinky promise they didn't do it (they don't--it's been openly confessed).
This is how criminals often operate. They've gotta confess, they want people to know what they did.
nanapancakethusiast@reddit
Didn’t you all make fun of republicans when they said the same thing in 2020 or whatever?
P90BRANGUS@reddit
The Republicans had zero evidence, and they were laughed out of the courts.
In contrast, the dems are refusing to even look into claims. There's a whole sub called r/somethingiswrong2024. People talk about calling democratic party officials who are angry at them for asking for recounts even in close races. Dems refused to do recounts even in races where, say, the governor race was very close. Those recounts would have given us more info about presidential voting and potential fraud. I think it's because they knew or suspected it--if they weren't in on it--and might have been too scared to fight it.
This is the Republican playbook: 1) plan to do malicious things to the government. 2) Loudly and hysterically claim the dems are doing it (they're not). 3) Now the dems sound hysterical if they accuse you of doing what you're actually doing. Which you do and no one says anything.
Ex: the dems are a threat to democracy!!! Meanwhile R's tried an insurrection and elected an insurrectionist.
What do you expect from a serial criminal r*pist who has said he would actively reject the results of an election he lost? Who confessed to rigging it this month?
Why wouldn't you believe the R's when they tell you who they are? Maybe you need more evidence. You should give Trump the benefit of the doubt more often.
76% percent of statements Politifact has checked by him are false. The Washington Post used to keep track of the lies, they counted some 30,000+. But give him the benefit of the doubt. The Russians didn't intervene in their favor, the dems totally looked into that and reprimanded the guilty parties. Trump didn't brag about Elon's knowledge of computers while talking about the voting.
And Trump most certainly did not openly confess it.
Anyways, you probably won't believe me. You don't live here. Most people don't understand all this. Lots of people believe in democracy. There are more layers even beyond this. But good luck.
deiprep@reddit
On one of the aviation forums I frequent, they are in denial that demand is slowly creeping down and think that Canadians are doing worse off than them.
Curious to see what this forum will be like in another few months
NanoisaFixedSupply@reddit
Carney is a central banker. People actually really trust him????
HeftyResearch1719@reddit
it massively triggering to any survivor of DV. The gaslighting. the isolating. The betrayals. The coercion. The DARVO. The condescending. The surveillance. The secrets. The financial abuse. In short the threat is coming from inside the house.
Junior_Mood_9425@reddit
Also how proselytizing works btw. They don't actually want you to convince anybody.They want you to see that you're despised by the outside world and only appreciated within the cult.
Malcolm_Morin@reddit
Even worse... it's only been TWO months.
Jaymesned@reddit
Two months and eight days.
nate112332@reddit
How long did it take for the Weimar again? We might outlive it.
gettin@reddit
So the US dares to want a better trade agreement with many countries, how dare they.
Let's keep propping up Canada or we will become like the Mayans?
OK buddy.
schnaps01@reddit
Are you mad? Canada, along side the UK was probably your best and closst ally and you threaten them with annexation, not with a better deal. You guys really lost all your sense.
No_Smoke_5664@reddit
The United States will annex you, if we want to.
schnaps01@reddit
Their government has truely become mad hasn't it?
gettin@reddit
Equal tariffs are not that hard to understand. What's yoir issue?
schnaps01@reddit
Your government threatened annexation.
gettin@reddit
So what? If Alberta wants to join the party that is fine. Why do you care? Not enough problems in Austria?
schnaps01@reddit
Yeah also a lot of shitheads here trying to get nazis bought by russia elected. At least we did not put them in power yet like you did.
gettin@reddit
Ok buddy. Living large over here. Maybe get in line and we can make a good American of you yet. Until then, stay in your lane buddy boy.
schnaps01@reddit
Yeah, thats why we gave up on you. Just don't come over here. Fear our exloding tree cities.
Active_Evidence_5448@reddit
I don’t know what that user’s deleted comments said but I apologize on their behalf
False-Verrigation@reddit
Enjoy paying a lot more for gas and energy.
We were giving you guys “friendly” pricing before.
Enjoy market price going forward.
gettin@reddit
Isnt there a Canadian message board you can go to?
False-Verrigation@reddit
Why would I, collapse affects everyone.
gettin@reddit
I thought it was all elbows up or some shit? This whole thread is dumb
No_Smoke_5664@reddit
boooo hoooo
Undead-Writer@reddit
Do people from other nations hate us? Do they hold us all accountable for the actions of the right? Or do they know most of us are like children in an abusive household?
Gott_ist_tot@reddit
They hate us.
WhiteWolfSpirit777@reddit
Learn skills like fishing, camping, map reading, foraging, etc. simple societies and smaller communities will be the only way to thrive. I’m ready now to go live with Bigfoot.
RegularDrop9638@reddit
This is not an accurate comparison. With AI and all technology, we are collapsing at an exponentially faster rate every day. It’s going to take less than 4 years. I mean, look at what Trump has done in a month. Don’t be foolish and unprepared.
Icy_Bowl_170@reddit
I guess our stubborness only gives Trump one choice: bomb the hell out of their former allies. The European spring may be closer than I thought.
Johundhar@reddit
Right?!!
These days saying 'Tuesday' suddenly sounds like hopium
Soggy-Beach1403@reddit
The REPUBLICANS blew it up. Quit pretending there is any opposition in the reich.
PurpleSailor@reddit
The loss of our soft power itself in staggering. Rarely did American help come without strings that usually benefited us in some way.
PlannedObsolescence-@reddit
Time to move to Canada
stasi_a@reddit
Just in time to defend your new home country from the invaders down south
64Olds@reddit
It's utterly insane how America completely squandered its incredible global power, prestige, and wealth. You could have continued to shape the world in your image to the benefit of all nations but instead have chosen to withdraw, look inwards, and punish your friends and allies. For what? The world that used to look up to you now reviles you and laughs at you. This is not winning.
stasi_a@reddit
All for the benefit of rich white racist men
According_Charity758@reddit
Good. We deserve everything we have coming. Blame it all on stealing indigenous land, denying that immigrants built this country, enslaving, killing, convicting and mistreating every black or brown person we’ve ever come in contact with… just to name a few? We have a titanic load of bad karma built on towers of pennies that was bound to collapse eventually. We don’t belong among the other nations who are trying to lead their people into a sustainable future of innovation and peace. I wish everyone the best during this slow collapse, and if we’re smart, we’ll turn our focus and hate towards the ACTUAL individuals behind all this bullshit… the ultra wealthy.
stasi_a@reddit
But you did have all these gorgeous national parks and dedicated rangers who work tirelessly to keep them in best shape. Oh wait
tootmyCanute@reddit
The people who need to read this and face reality simply will not. They are watching propaganda news by the millions, certain that everything Trump is doing will save the country. From the outside looking in, it's so obvious how hard they're working to collapse American hegemony, but the MAGA cult isn't being swayed.
A new world order isn't the end of the world, but a destabilized superpower actively searching for war opportunities could be what leads to a full collapse of civilization.
stasi_a@reddit
Unless they follow the Soviet playbook
ApprehensiveVisual80@reddit
Separating ourselves from the world was exactly what he ran on, we don’t need to be so heavily involved with other countries when we are continually building up unfathomable debt and losing our self reliance during times when we could be disconnected from critical infrastructure and supplies at the behest of foreign countries whether allies or not.
VoiceofTruth7@reddit
Thinking that Canada or the train are going to weather this well also is kinda silly…
Cowicidal@reddit
My friends and I used to half-joke in the 90's that Americans were being "dumbed down" and were "sheep" being led to slaughter. After 2001, we stopped laughing because it was becoming too horrifyingly true right before our eyes.
Turns out dumbing people down and making them more susceptible and submissive towards being ruled by oligarchs is big business — a very successful big business filled to the brim with slimy sycophants. We can look at who owns social media and there's our answer as to why integrity is punished — while dishonest, purposefully obtuse propaganda is uplifted.
This:
Adin Ross does not know what the word "fascism" means
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNIYvOpTsh8
Led to this:
Adin Ross Gives Trump a Cybertruck, a Rolex and Access to a Heavily Male Audience
https://archive.ph/5tD5G
Then to this:
'How Fascism Works' Author Flees The USA For Canada
https://youtu.be/RKf2EzfgtZc?si=YAPibDz-M4apEXm2
idkmoiname@reddit
Slowly the US begins to realize their problem is far bigger than how to get rid of Trump...
betterbundleup@reddit
The U.S. has been the greatest threat to world peace since the UK transferred the Imperium to them at the end of ww2.
In fact if there's any one nation that has ensured collapse it is the u.s.
It is quite literally a good thing that they are collapsing. Only reason people are worried is that for once it is not just people in the global South who will feel the violent power of the u.s.
PHL2287@reddit
A world power was always inevitably gonna have to fill the void. We weren’t ready as a universe for more than that. It’s hard to predict what might’ve happened, but some could probably argue that it was advantageous it was the US versus another country.
betterbundleup@reddit
This is an assumption based on the idea that we must live in a unipolar world dominated by a single state. Something that's really only been true since the dawn of the British empire. Of which the u.s. Is literally a continuation. Read Churchill and how he endured the transfer of imperial power after ww2 to ensure that power rested in the correct race of people.
Advantageous to whom exactly? Iraqis? Afghans? Chileans? Cubans? Haitians? Koreans? The Vietnamese? Sudanese?
It would be an analytical error to assume that other nation states wish to dominate the world at all especially in the violent and terroristic fashion of the British or United states.
Spe3dGoat@reddit
all of modern society silly
mental illness is different than actually having facts
collapse-ModTeam@reddit
Hi, Spe3dGoat. Thanks for contributing. However, your comment was removed from /r/collapse for:
Please refer to our subreddit rules for more information.
You can message the mods if you feel this was in error, please include a link to the comment or post in question.
Spe3dGoat@reddit
first, the US is not collapsing. the statement is absurd hyperbole and scare mongering. pretty typical for this sub.
second, if the US goes down, the world will fall into authoritarianism very quickly.
third, please define collapse. this is this sub's achilles heel.
PLEASE DEFINE IT. yeah thought so.
once Trump is out you will go back to parroting whatever version of doomsday was en vogue during Biden.
your performative, fact-less, fear driven narrative has no basis in reality, no definition with which to even begin having a productive discussion and is 100% based on feelings and virtue signaling
wtf the delusion here. the US has been exporting its power around the globe for 100 years. this is some B grade victim hood chest beating.
karshberlg@reddit
And I'm so tired of being in a US website with these whiny babies blowing anything US-related out of proportion.
Like that article the other day about not being able to go out with an 80k annual income. That's the top 10-20% in global income. I haven't gone out since I got long covid in summer 21'. The majority of the world has already collapsed, excess deaths have been going rampant.
I'm not sorry at all that the OG of settler colonialism funding the new Michael Jordan of settler colonialism is collapsing. The chickens come home to roost and all the smug liberals rationalizing and whitewashing empire are as much to blame as red america. You gulped down so much of the world that only you could take yourself down, and you know what, the sooner the better.
wuhwahwuhwah@reddit
Collapse starts from the moment a civilization is born. Just as the process of death starts when a baby is born. Societies have lifespans too.
But it’s ok so long as we can keep our fingers off the nuke buttons, the old societies must die to make room for what is to come; just as the old generation must die to make way for the younger one. Collapse is scary, but it does not have to be negative; that is up to us.
TheRealKison@reddit
You’re getting some criticism with this, but I like this take.
It’s not as much a hopeful statement (to me) as it is a comforting point of view. Cheers!
wuhwahwuhwah@reddit
Yeah I’m not taking hopium in regards to our current society, I know it’s collapsing. But I think we can either be scared during the major collapse and remain hopeless; scared and hopeless. Or we can at least mentally and physically prepare to fight for a good rebuild, fight against the Trumps of the world trying to be king after the collapse. Then we are still scared, but at least we have hope to keep going. But I think the times ahead for all of us are going to be bloody and terrifying and really hard. So I gotta have something to keep me going.
EntropicSpecies@reddit
Holy crap! How much hopium did you smoke this morning?
wuhwahwuhwah@reddit
Hmm, what exactly am I hoping in? That things are fine and this society will continue to thrive? Not at all, in fact I said collapse was inevitable
I also mentioned these are scary times. Yes everything is collapsing all around us and it is very scary
But this is where we differ. I am willing to fight for what is good. Yes, this society is going to get run down to ashes, and it will probably be bloody and horrible on the way down. But because I am prepared mentally and physically to rebuild I can be hopeful even though I am scared
And because you refuse to fight for what is good, not only are you scared, but you have no hope. I don’t understand why you don’t just kill yourself now? It will probably be less painful for you in the long run because there are tough times ahead friend. Of course I do not want you to kill yourself, I want you with me and others ready to build from the ground up the next society. There are going to be lots of people trying to build their idea of a good society. There will be Trump’s out there trying to be king. We have to fight with every ounce of our being to prevent them. And if you can’t do that, you are just in the way.
So how about you wake up out of your sleep, stop running down people because they have hope, and actually do something to make this world a better place instead of just moping around all day complaining blah blah blah but never doing anything?
At the very least you should start getting physically fit and learn agriculture, basic construction, learn to use hand tools, etc.
StonedChompsky@reddit
Mainline that shit into my veins actually
GalaxyPatio@reddit
He ate the brick
ConfusedMaverick@reddit
And where can I get some?
Searchingtolearn2@reddit
He is smoking it all. none left for us.
CaptinACAB@reddit
Behold: the golden age.
blodo_@reddit
The golden ape more like
felis_magnetus@reddit
Here's some simple optimism for you: It has become irrefutably clear, that capitalism and representative democracy are absolute failures when it comes to addressing the ongoing poly-crisis. We have several decades of data on that. Given that, the collapse of the world order as we knew it, is exactly what needed to happen. Granted, the emerging one doesn't look more functional as of now, but we're in an open situation, so at least there is still a possibility for something better, small as it may be. Nevertheless, that's already better than the certainty of continued failure of the old world order.
Grouchy_Ad_3705@reddit
The administration wants Canada’s northern water passage through the artic. Threats are a bad idea, we have diplomacy for a reason.
GracchiBros@reddit
The collapse of this sub is about global civilization, not the US Empire.
SaxManSteve@reddit (OP)
Moving from a unipolar world order (American hegemony) to a multipolar one always increases geopolitical conflict. As America's geopolitical power recedes in the wake of far-right protectionist rhetoric, two things are occurring:
The data absolutely confirms this trend. For example, the well-known Global Peace Index 2024 report concluded that we now have the most amount of active conflicts since WW2.
Quotes from report:
ChameleonPsychonaut@reddit
How can this be true when so many people otherwise-intelligent people confidently tell me that “ACKSHUALLY this is the safest and most peaceful time in human history!”
infamouszgbgd@reddit
cause they're parroting outdated data (literally the data the person you're replying to referenced but from a few years ago), or you are parroting outdated talking points
SaxManSteve@reddit (OP)
Steven Pinker in shambles
betterbundleup@reddit
This comment is a perfect example of the lack of historical knowledge. The u.s. is responsible for starting or contributing to most of the international conflicts.
17 years ago = 2008? Before 2008 the u.s. bombed a pharma factory in Sudan. They invaded Iraq twice and Afghanistan. They were involved in destabilizing or ensuring the continued destabilization of multiple South American countries as well as Haiti.
NatanAlter@reddit
That is incorrect. Most of international conflicts were fought before USA was founded.
A good, although one of many, example of our future multipolar world order is Europe from ca 1500 to 1848. Constant fighting, changing alliances and power politics.
WloveW@reddit
The US president is unhinged and has nuclear weapons. I don't think this is the win you are predicting.
karshberlg@reddit
Russia has nuclear weapons. No one uses them because of MAD. If the empire piggies want to destroy the world because they have to suffer a small part of what they dole out, that's on no one but on them.
Loopuze1@reddit
“That’s on them”
How comforting to know that blame will be properly distributed!
anlumo@reddit
Trump is unhinged, but not actually in charge. He’s the figure head, as the Signal leak has shown. This was a major military strike, and the only Trump involvement was a 24h veto option.
WloveW@reddit
Yes, that makes it even more of a global problem then, right? Other countries and rich people have bought the prez to meddle with geopolitics much more easily now.
Trump doesn't care about any of the military stuff. He has no idea what is going on, military wise. You think he strategizes? Fertilization. The man does not have a coherent thought in his head. Lol.
He is letting other people do whatever they want, however they want, because his purpose is only to get rich and sow discord to bring down America & help oligarchs and dictators.
I still don't see how that's just a USA thing.
nommabelle@reddit
It's actually a major fucking L. You underestimate the impact the US has on global civilization and how devastating it would be for our completely interconnected society
I literally cannot say how critical it is to our civilization, let alone how this isn't isolated. Other countries are experiencing their own fascist politics as well, Trump is just how it manifests in the US
TinyDogsRule@reddit
I had not considered it from this perspective. For those of us in the US, the damage is already done for many generations, assuming we have many generations. I suppose if the world is still standing after MAGA is extinct, then it will be a huge global win. It will also be crazy global chaos for years or decades.
JagBak73@reddit
We are well on our way to becoming a closed off country like the USSR was, only this time it will have zero allies and will not have an iron curtain to hide behind.
Another difference will be how at least the USSR provided free housing, low cost utilities, free healthcare, and free college.
The total gutting of the government and Trump crashing the economy will foment chaos and poverty the likes this country hasn't seen since the great depression.
Moreover, how long until our passports become nearly worthless and we will need permission to leave the country?
How long until we'll need state I.D.s or internal passports just to travel from state to state?
cosmic_censor@reddit
Trump isn't the cause of the decline of the American Empire, he is a symptom. Don't forget the democrats ran Biden despite obvious cognitive decline and when that became untenable, opted to run the unlikeable Kamala Harris who could not even manage to best Tulsi Gabbard in a debate during her own Presidental bid.
Western democracy is failing because the elites have figured out how to avoid any real accountability to the electorate and Trump is the manifestation of that strategy.
vigiy@reddit
sure western democracy is in decline but what is the chance trump can stay in for a 3rd term because democracy has failed -- 10%? To what extent did elites ever have accountability? The funny thing is trump, elon, rfk, tulsi, etc are anti-establishment elite....they were all former democrats that never really felt like they belonged and are real butt-hurt about that.
jar-oh-pickles@reddit
The current US administration is attempting to accelerate climate change to make the arctic more hospitable for the movement of Russian troops to Greenland and Canada as well as to open up the area for oil and gas.
The US and Russia are going to be allies in the coming world war against the rest of the free world. With this there will certainly be internal struggle as well i.e. civil war. IMO
I would like to live in less interesting times please.
jaymickef@reddit
It seems pretty clear from the actions of the worlds leaders that they are setting up new spheres of influence, territories and supply lines. It seems they feel they can wall themselves off from the rest of the world and survive collapse. I'm not even sure if us Canadians should be glad the US wants us inside their sphere or not.
Chiluzzar@reddit
Om gonna drink big of the hopeahol that decouplimg and isolatong the USA and its ilk will mitigate some of the damage weve caused and makes the incoming collapse not as harsh
WloveW@reddit
We're the kid who pooped their pants on purpose and picks their boogers and now we wonder why no one wants to play with us on the playground or share our snacks, lol.
OK, well a couple kids still want to play us. It's just they are the other ostracized kids who don't play well with others.
cabalavatar@reddit
And now those kids will cry-bully and play victim like incels—like people who think they're entitled to owning every friend and relationship they want despite their deplorable behaviour.
RetroClubXYZ@reddit
Throughout history, printing fiat backed by nothing only lasts around 50 years. America has had it's 50 years, since Nixon came off the gold standard.
4BigData@reddit
We all knew that as climate change kicks in, the fight for resources was going to make countries fight with each other.
The US like most countries with aging demographics are broke with their promises made to the when it comes to pensions and healthcare. So-called political leaders cannot say it under democracies or they risk pissing their old voters off. That doesn't change the reality of being broke.
asyrian88@reddit
All on schedule! Putin’s asset bought and paid for doing what he was instructed to do.
Nadie_AZ@reddit
Did Putin buy off Ronald Reagan? His changing the tax base to give the wealthy more money and place the tax burden on the working people, along with his smashing of the unions, started this. Or his war on American citizens who happened to be black - I mean drugs?
Did he buy off Clinton, who turbocharged US deindustrialization, which hurt and angered the people living in those regions who lost their jobs? Or when he signed off on getting rid of Glass Stiegel which led to...
Did Put buy off George W Bush Jr, who wasted untold dollars and lives on wars against a bad emotion and Allah? Or his creation of a Homeland Security Agency (and the Patriot Act), which sounded so Orwellian to us when it was announced? Or his deregulation that eventually triggered the 2008 financial crisis where Capitalism crashed?
Did Putin buy off Obama when he ignored the bankers and let them walk, bailing them out and letting them continue sucking the wealth from the American people? Or when he helped push through a health care law that mandated we all buy health insurance?
Trump is a product of the very pro business actions of the last 50 years which came at the cost of the working class. He is as American as company towns, slavery, genocide, yellow peril, internment camps, strike breaking, union busting, red lining, private prisons. Americans need to take responsibility for the fact that their nation isn't some bastion of freedom and democracy. Those are just words used to trigger a pavlovian response so they continue to let corporations and the wealthy tell their public servants how to act. Hair Dipshit IS one of those wealthy so he bypasses the usual 'niceness' that US people except from politicians.
Russia's economy is 1/10th that of the US. That's it. It is tiny. Why would someone with the ego the size of the moon (Trump) bend the knee to someone else? "They have something on him." Oh? Trump runs the most powerful nation on the planet. Democrats have spent since 2015 pointing out every flaw the man has and guess what? None of that mattered. If Putin were to release some stuff on him being this or that or having done this or that, do you really really really think his voters wouldn't vote for him again?
Schmich@reddit
"not with a bang"
? There's a proper bang going on. Every week the list is bangs is long.
blackbartimus@reddit
Trump is def blowing stuff up but if someone believes in a “free world” they’re deeply delusional. America has never been concerned with democracy. It only cares about access to resources and political/military control of the globe.
China has managed to overtake is without engaging in a war since the mid 70’s. The US has been a terrible steward to the world good riddance to our rotten empire that can no longer provide living wages, affordable healthcare or housing for its own citizens.
hate Trump but I also hate every liberal and republican than has spent then last half century propping up this bloated corpse of a country.
all-we-are-is@reddit
Whose fault is that? Dump and his cult. What a shit show.
Nazirul_Takashi@reddit
But we saved Billions of dollars by NOT wasting them on our neighbors! /s
gonejahman@reddit
I see your situation and I'll raise you a situation. Your country is losing clients left and right. Trump has a stock holder meeting coming up and he is going to have to explain to them why all the most profitable companies... are bleeding. So they maybe looking for a little change in President.
So I don't think I need to wait out for America, I think I just have to wait out Trump.
StatementBot@reddit
This post links to another subreddit. Users who are not already subscribed to that subreddit should not participate with comments and up/downvotes, or otherwise harass or interfere with their discussions (brigading)
The following submission statement was provided by /u/SaxManSteve:
SS: Instead of summarizing or explaining how Trump's move towards isolationism is part of the collapse, I thought I would share a passage from John Michael Greer's book The Long Descent that stuck with me. It emphasizes how relatively slow—from the perspective of a single lifetime—the process of collapse was for historical empires. It helps to add perspective to the myriad crises we are experiencing today, the death by a thousand cuts that is catabolic collapse.
Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/1jlvce0/collapse_is_happening_now_its_happening_tomorrow/mk6psfn/
StatementBot@reddit
As a final reminder, your post must include a valid submission statement within 30 min. Your post is missing a submission statement.
Submission statements must clearly explain why the linked content is collapse-related. They should contain a summary or description of the content and must be at least 150 characters in length. They must be original and not overly composed of quoted text from the source. If a statement is not added within thirty minutes of posting it will be removed.
Please message the moderators if you feel this was an error. Responses to this comment are not monitored.