Have any software engineers moved from US to somewhere else?
Posted by rdh24@reddit | expats | View on Reddit | 42 comments
Note: posted in r/expat as well so sorry if you saw this already.
I'm currently a lead software engineer at a large company. I'd love to move to another country but I'm struggling with the wage comparisons. In the US, someone at my level would make anywhere rorm 120k to 300k USD depending on company. It could even be more in New York or California. The same job in say London or Netherlands or elsewhere seems to be 80k to maybe 120k USD. This is concerning because cost of living in London is 30-50% higher compared to where I am in the US currently. So if take a large salary cut AND pay more to live there.
Is my minimal research wrong? Are software engineer jobs significantly lower salary (accounting for cost of living changes)? Where did you move to and what was your salary change like?
YetAnotherGuy2@reddit
It is hard to do an honest comparison. While you might earn less, typically social security and other benefits are higher in many other countries. If you want a true apple to apple comparison, you're going to have to define a common baseline. For example, health insurance is off the charts in the US so you'll have to baseline the benefits you get in eg Europe and then see what you would have to pay in the US to get the equivalent. Or you prioritize what is important to you and reduce the size of the exercise.
I have a German friend who moved to the US years ago and said he's paying extremely high premiums to get the German equivalent and all his co workers make fun of him.
I think it really depends on what you prioritize in life. I also would want to point out that the market for software developers is pretty rough in Europe as far as I've seen.
Kind-Network9448@reddit
Did you move to Germany without knowing German? How did they hire you as opposed to local devs? Sorry I’m asking but I’m trying to move as well and want to know if it’s very hard
YetAnotherGuy2@reddit
I moved long ago, so it's hard to say something helpful if you are considering the move now, but let me try:
I think it's becoming increasingly difficult to move to Germany without sufficient language skills in the field of software.
Nearshoring has become quite common in the 2020s and with translation software what it is, language barriers have noticeably dropped in such scenarios. There's just no benefit in paying German salaries if you can get the same somewhere else in Europe with the same level of language skills cheaper.
Stuff like Claude Code has noticeably increased productivity reducing the need for hiring anything but senior devs - there's an overhang from the influx in the late 2010s. In combination with the economy that has been flat for the last 3 years, the overall market fluidity has slowed down considerably.
There are many posts on the Germany sub where they talk about just that subject and it's never good. (Although those subs tend to highlight the negative aspects)
My advice: gain experience in software development with German companies where you live and take it from there. Work on your language skills and then try looking for an opportunity.
Kind-Network9448@reddit
Thanks for everything. By language skills do you mean learning German or computer language skills?
YetAnotherGuy2@reddit
German language skills
afaerieprincess80@reddit
My partner and I are both in tech and moved to NL (not Amsterdam, but still in the Randstad). Partner took a 40% salary reduction. I took maybe a 20% (am tech-adjacent and tranferred with the same company). Partner is still salty about it, but we have plenty to travel and enjoy life.
Some things we save on: not having a car and all that comes with it, lower insurance premiums and deductibles (we pay about 150 Euros/mo/person, and have a 380 Euro annual deductible).
To add onto what people are saying about going back to the US or other countries for health care: at least in NL the big thing I think have problems with is that the system is different. I don't find it significatly different than the US, but I've lived here for 10 years now and I recognize things have changed in the US. You have to first go to the GP, who then refers you to a specialist. The drs are also less likely to give you meds, but I have not had a problem here getting prescriptions, but it really helps to have your story laid out: Here is what I am experiencing, this is how it is affecting my day-to-day life, this is what I've tried to far, and this is what I am expecting from you.
Kind-Network9448@reddit
Congrats on making the move. Was it hard to find a job to hire you as a non European and did you know Dutch or only English?
ekdubbs@reddit
I moved from Silicon Valley to Shanghai, I saw on paper a 40% drop. But in reality when accounting for effective tax rates, housing benefits, it was around a 10% gap on paper.
When accounting for cost of living I saved about 250% more for similar quality of life ($2K/mo savings turned into 5K/mo) with the drop.
However you can find many countries with favorable expatriate benefits and tax benefits to attract technical talent.
helluvaprice@reddit
So you moved pre pandemic? Can you share more about day to day life in Shanghai, working conditions, and if you're staying long term?
ekdubbs@reddit
Yeah pre pandemic and through the lockdowns.
MNCs in China as an expatriate your usually the boss, so that has a different weight compared to being the boss in US. Working times are different from local companies so it’s like a western bubble in a cutthroat environment. It’s a high power distance culture so you can feel when you say something the take action right away and compete to earn your favor. It kind of gets annoying at times but I prefer this over US any day, where you have to work harder to align folks on what the right thing is to get them to do their job.
Yeah I’ll be staying long term, it’s a good hedge on US as one of them is bound to be top.
helluvaprice@reddit
Thanks for the insight. A couple more questions if you're comfortable answering. Pre pandemic means you lived through the Shanghai lockdowns - what was that like or did you leave? And your last point is interesting and one that I didn't consider. I've read of office raids happening for western tech and investment firms and some targeting of westerners when things get politically hot. Was thinking that might impact MNC's moving their regional HQ's to Singapore/Tokyo. Are you hearing any of that in the expat community? And what was integration like for you in general?
ekdubbs@reddit
I moved during the first Trump administration.
I lived through the lockdowns, saw quite a bit on the extent of the statecraft. Snap a finger and compliance, at every corner or community someone enforcing orders (often beyond the intention of those who wrote the order), piles of food delivered by the state to each well ran complexes (not all had community managers), communities self organizing on WeChat to bulk buy, etc. It was quite a sight to see. Many of my expat friends left during this time, never came back. So the expat community is quite small and slowly recovering.
For business exodus, at first I thought it may be a concern about exiting businesses or relocation due to politics - as I was geopolitically naive during the first Trump administration - never had to deal with that macro at my career at the time. China related projects got canned, but business still stayed. They are too dependent on China and know if they leave they won’t be allowed to come back. With respect to harassment of western firms, it happens time to time and Amcham Shanghai always raises it up, but it’s far in between and just part of doing business. Interpreting such a thing is a reminder for business owners to communicate more with local authorities. Many that leave complain about it, but they left because the business wasn’t there anymore (outcompeted). Those that stay show up and do the whole dance with authorities to align to the PRCs development plans.
I wised up on geopolitics * business since then and it’s guided my investment and business decisions. Career wise I’m hitting a ceiling cause of macro, but an alternative path is opening up in its place.
helluvaprice@reddit
What're your thoughts on Shenzhen as a tech hub/China's Silicon Valley? They seem to be the home of innovation while Shanghai has all of the MNC offices. Do you see MNC's opening up shop down there or any opportunities for westerners?
ekdubbs@reddit
Internationally it’s known for HW and electronics, EVs, domestically it has good software based innovations too. For MNCs they do have presence in Shenzhen, but it’s too far from the politics so they often opt for Shanghai or Beijing which has access to key officials and broader support like from things like Amcham. As Bill Gurley’s miles for Silicon Valley, being far away from politics allows more innovations.
I believe when the PRC does open its market more broadly rather than SEZ experiments we would see more western companies take root in Shenzhen to bootstrap the talent pool.
ginger_beer_m@reddit
Interesting! Yours is the only post of someone making the move to Asia rather than the stereotypical Western Europe countries. Could you share more, if you don't mind, on how you made the move and your overall experience? Asian salary seems to have caught up to their western counterpart.
ekdubbs@reddit
China is a bit different compared to the others like Japan, Singapore, Taiwan or South Korea. They all have language barriers and different attitude to expatriates.
I did a transfer from an MNC to one of their Asia offices. They handled the immigration and Byzantine processes. At the time globalism was at its high and they appreciated someone that understood HQ to spearhead a remote office team so more opportunities were there.
Overall experience was great, first few months had a lot of breaking in period as the culture was vastly different.
Then had to unlearn a lot of stuff / habits I picked up growing in the US that I never knew I learned. An example is the flow of things, how people move around and their body languages. Understanding those parts makes it a lot easier to navigate these cities. They aren’t cutting in front of you because you wanted more personal space, they are cutting in front of you because you aren’t paying attention to close the gap.
Then seeing the levels of media bias became more apparent on both sides, where I thought I had a good sense of truth from a free media, it was far from it having lived it. This helped quite a bit spot some good trading opportunities from crypto arbitrage to shorting / investing in the market.
Modullah@reddit
What about learning mandarin?
ekdubbs@reddit
Just through osmosis. I tried to do some formal learning that was part of the package, but most of the time I had to get my team to speak more English as it would help them interface to US. Right now I can basically just order food, lots of use of translator apps or ChatGPT to get by.
Modullah@reddit
I see, yeah. My osmosis isn’t osmosising 😂. Regardless, Thank your for sharing your experience ! 😊
rdh24@reddit (OP)
We are certainly off topic now but I'm interested in what these trading opportunities were and how living in Asia helped you spot them?
ekdubbs@reddit
For example, when China banned mining and trading platforms the price for bitcoin to RMB or USD rose and allowed me to arbitrage to US markets. It was about a 20-30% delta for a short window as there was a rush to liquidate.
Trading opportunities, living here I see the rise of EVs and I definitely shorted quite a bit of US EV makers outside of Tesla. I bought byd and Catl early on, made some gains. Lost a bit on Nio but still see good traction within China - I bought their car but it’s better to be a consumer than an investor for them.
Being an avid Starbucks drinker I bought into them into the rise in the China market late 2010s, but as soon as I saw their stores being more empty and their menus being less premium I shorted it around 2023 after the COVID bounce and when businesses as usual returned in China.
Also shorting Nvidia, as I see good traction in local semiconductors, and local companies are finding more efficient ways around training. Moved most things to gold / spxs, etc late last year and it’s doing pretty well to date. This is where media bias plays a bigger role as it’s hard to tell what’s narrative, fud when I was just in US alone. It became more US centric so I would be late to a lot of these trades.
FrauAmarylis@reddit
And the taxes are Astronomical! And the worst kept secret is that everyone who can afford it buys Private health insurance and especially dental, and many Americans in London fly to the US for healthcare and visit the US several times a year. Ive met several people here whose partners refuse to endure the inconvenience of London life. It’s hugely frustrating, expensive, and a huge step down in Quality of life, and we live in a posh flat in a posh area.
OP, bloom where you’ve been planted.
My husband and I are in London because the GI Bill pays our rent and we are exempt from council tax and all but sales tax, and we want to explore this part of the world without jet lag and long flights. We will stay a few years because we retired early…because we had high wages, low taxes, and lived beneath our means. And yes, we had great medical insurance, 30+ days paid vacation, parental leave, etc. in the US. I even lived car-free in the US for years.
rdh24@reddit (OP)
Why do people buy private insurance if it's free in other countries? What's the benefit and cost of private insurance in another country? If healthcare is much better in Europe, why would someone fly back to the US for healthcare?
FrauAmarylis@reddit
The National Health Service in the UK and London isn’t very good any more. There are posts every day on UK subs about how certain procedures aren’t covered and people were denied an ambulance, etc. I know a lot of Preventive care that starts at age 40 in the US, doesn’t start until age 65 in the UK.
People suffer in pain in the UK, waiting years for an MRI or surgery, while their ailment worsens.
Emergency care is always a long wait, all day in the UK.
In the US, I’ve never waited more than an hour at urgent care. In California and Hawaii , I had specialist doctor appointments within a month, and sometimes within 24 hours.
Dental- it only covers one cleaning per year, and Americans are mortified by what passes gor a professional cleaning in London, plus our US healthcare covers 2-4 cleanings per year and lots of dental work. And if you need dental Work in the UK , there is out-of-pocket costs. People post all the time in local groups asking about cost comparisons. I’ve seen so much antiquated dental work in Europe, that I’ve never seen in my Gen X life in the US, and I grew up without health insurance, just paying out-of-pocket.
Our UK visa required us to pay thousands of dollars for NHS, even though we have our own PPO (really amazing) health insurance from the US that allows us to get private care in the UK.
Lots of people from the US and UK do Medical Tourism to get advanced dental work in Israel or Turkey. In the UK they say, Oh, she got her Turkey teeth. It’s so common.
Grand-Judgment-6497@reddit
I'd like to know where you went for urgent care with under one hour waits in the US. That hasn't been my experience at all (still in US).
No-Effort4861@reddit
Turkey teeth is a mocking term for the over bright low quality veneers that some people get done on the cheap in Turkey and think look good. It's not a boast or a compliment. It's a joke. Your hot takes/massive generalisations about the UK are so wildly yet confidently inaccurate.
formerlyfed@reddit
Healthcare isn’t better in Europe, it’s just cheaper
Daegalus@reddit
I moved with my family from the Seattle area to Copenhagen, Denmark.
My salary dropped from $210k base to an equivalent of $130k base. And honestly, I feel like I get more for my money than I did back in the US.
Groceries and food are a fraction of the US. I budget $100-$150 a week for 2 adults and 2 kids. Daycare(1yo-3yo) and kindergarten (3yo-5yo) cost a total of $500 for both kids. They get breakfast, snacks, lunch, and afternoon snacks and a snack is like bread with butter and cheese with a plate full of fruit. And a lot of times their breakfast and lunch is better than what I eat. Nap times, 3 kids to 1 teacher ratio, and focus on confidence and self-sustaiming skills. My 1yo can poor her own glass of water and then drink it without spilling now. Took my first much longer to gain skills like that in the US.
Socialized medicine and healthcare, calm and safe. Everyone is friendly and almost all Danes know English to a near fluent level. They start learning it as a second language in 2nd or 3rd grade. So integration has been easier and we are already learning Danish.
Insurances coat me about $100 for all the ones I need for like renters insurance and such. Gigabit fiber for $40 a month, unlimited mobile data and such for $30 a month.
The only things that are expensive are large long-term purchases. Furniture, appliances, household goods, etc. but they are good quality and last long. Also Ikea and Jysk cover most of that without emptying your bank account.
And a lot of Europe is similar. So yes, I took a massive pay cut. But I pay less for daily life, get so much more, and live well. The piece of mind is absolutely invaluable. I've lost weight, my stress levels are super low, and I'm smiling more.
It's only been 6months. I can only imagine 2 years. 5 years etc.
ambergresian@reddit
I moved to Scotland, but both my jobs here have been based on that they pay in London too.
Went from ~$400k TC ($200k base) in San Francisco to £90k/~$116k (base and TC) lol
now I'm working for a US company and have £210k/$272k TC (£132k/$171k base)
honestly even with the lower salary, things are cheaper here, plus I had a nest egg to help with housing which is the biggest expense. I'm not planning on having this high of salary forever, but the first salary seemed pretty average for my senior I level.
Gaelenmyr@reddit
Depending on target country, but people usually trade their salary with other factors, such as free healthcare, safety, better food quality, good work/life balance; at the cost of lower salary, relocation and adaptation problems
Cinderpath@reddit
It took me a long time to realize I truly didn’t need near as much money as I made in the U.S. as I do in Europe, and my quality of life is substantially better as well. Doing the American hustle is a fast-track to getting old very fast! I also found life in the U.S. is anxiety on steroids at times!
Now with King Trump on top of that? It’ll be a self-made economic dumpster fire of inflation,no matter how much one makes there, it never seems to be enough.
GermOrean@reddit
There will be a pay cut for sure. I was pretty salty about it for years, but I got over it. I realized my life isn't about maximizing my economic output; It's about enjoying my life.
shelby_xx88xx@reddit
Silicon Valley to Switzerland
The land Europeans dream of working in die the high salaries…
Tech/Sales role and made 100k less in year 1, even more once the double taxation and wealth tax slaps you.
Retired early….used the residence permit to buy some coveted Swiss real estate.
Unless you have the coin to do that, stay put in USA. You won’t make more money anywhere else.
Once you are wealthy, Europe is not a bad place to spend it and treat yourself.
prettyprincess91@reddit
Moved to the Uk - salary cut by 40%. Living expenses only 10% lower.
pjeffer1797@reddit
Your research is right
SatoshiThaGod@reddit
Your research is right
travelers_memoire@reddit
I’ve moved overseas as a dev and the short answer is yes pay is less. Depending on where you go it might not be too bad but unless you get a remote US job there will be a pay cut.
I moved to Australia and the pay is in aud so depending on the exchange rate it can be quite a drop in salary. For Australia I’d say to expect a 30% drop minimum. That said you get healthcare, a 401k (Super), safer cities, no state tax and property tax is a one off.
rdh24@reddit (OP)
Thanks for the reply! What level dev are you currently (if you still are) and what's a rough pay range for it? Just curious how that compares to me and what I'd expect to make moving to Australia.
travelers_memoire@reddit
I’m a senior dev and the range is probably 125k - 200k roughly. It’s hard to pinpoint it since, as I’m sure you know, title responsibilities vary by company
AquaHills@reddit
That pay cut is normal but it doesn't feel as big as it really is. Our family moved to Germany and we honestly are able to save just as much money here (maybe a little more) on one Software Engineer salary as we were saving in the states on two salaries. So many things are cheaper here so it balances out. Food, internet, and phone are much cheaper. Healthcare, daycare, and transport costs are significantly reduced or non -existent comparatively (we live in a city with great public transport and choose not to own a car because it's not needed). The difference is definitely not as crazy as it seems.
very_tiring@reddit
I've worked as a software dev in both US and Netherlands. Netherlands salary was about 20% lower, but to be entirely honest, it didn't feel like I had a lot less disposable income. I did have the 30% ruling, and I'm not sure ho that works now, last i heard years ago they were trying to change it and I haven't looked into it again.
kdiffily@reddit
It’s the reason I didn’t move to Canada when I was younger. Would have easily gotten express entry but the salaries in Toronto were less than half of those in DC.