My work wants us to develop proprietary software for exposure
Posted by Polar-squirrel@reddit | ExperiencedDevs | View on Reddit | 132 comments
Using an alt account cause someone might figure me out but this can mitigate that a little bit.
Just as I said my work is trying to have us develop AI software for free.
The company I work for is going through a bit, we are for the vast majority government contracts. That’s not exactly a great field right now. The place doesn’t pay the most, has paid well enough historically, but two years ago no one got a raise and this year they adjusted pay scales to be worse and I got a super fun 2% raise. And yes I am looking for a new job. We also had benefits that were pretty good outside of it, decent work life balance and pretty good vibe.
Anyways I think my brain broke today. My work wants to do a “hackathon” that takes place over 4 weeks. All work is unpaid, they own the IP, and has to be done outside of normal business hours. There is a paltry prize for the winning team, not really a big one, but all submissions are owned by the company.
I was interested in doing it for fun but when they went “well your contracts say we own it” I’m kind of just done. Look I have a resume of the shit I’ve done, I’ve acquired a lot of skills in my job over the years, I’m a solid developer and I continue to do things to advance my career. However when you flat out go “well it’s for the education experience which you pay us for in IP and free time” you can kind of firmly, fuck yourself. Like my raises over the last two years is 1 percent and you want me to give you a free IP that you will use to make money off of.
Anyone else work for someone like this cause my brain broke.
DaRubyRacer@reddit
Kinda like that pizza party shit. You will do everything on the planet except pay me, won't you? My employer doesn't do too much of this, but there is the occasional party mention or free lunch like it's a huge deal.
To be fair, I wouldn't be against something like a set of Employer sponsored Rails Convention tickets at the cost of exposing the company as a Rails development team for possible projects. But free work, shit I'd say HELL NO to that.
Business-Row-478@reddit
If it is all unpaid and done outside of business hours, how could they possibly own the IP? Those are pretty much the major factors that would grant them the IP in the first place
FondantNo7807@reddit
I work for LjnkedIn and they do a yearly hackathon.
I didn’t participate because I simply dont have time for it (young kids at home and I work remote away from anyone else).
But they pay big cash bonuses for the top 3 winners of a couple different categories. Don’t recall if it’s during office hours but I’m pretty sure it is, and of course it’s paid being during office hours. They of course choose the categories so a large part of the work is on something related to the company, but beyond that the categories are pretty broad. They also allow anyone to join the hackathons (can be product or marketing people even).
Sounds like your company is trying to take advantage of you In a very unfair way.
AnthTheAnt@reddit
Doesn’t sound like it’s worth participating in.
Polar-squirrel@reddit (OP)
Oh it’s not at all. I think the breaker for me is how they presented it like they are doing the devs a favor for it.
I did one bit of work for free in the last year. A website for my mom, and it took me a couple hours in total and that’s for my mom
Synaqua@reddit
This is very common. A lot of workplaces that aren’t dev lead, don’t like devs. Were painful, we say no a lot, we tell them work needs doing that doesn’t have a tangible (I.e. shiny thing they can sell to customers) attached.
When they finally give in and allow tech uplifts, they act like we should bow down and give tribute.
Laetitian@reddit
Are there any businesses with marketing teams that work for the common good? I just want to hear about one...
its-nex@reddit
Sea Org?
duke_of_brute@reddit
Sea Org indeed 😂
Synaqua@reddit
Not sure what you mean by marketing? I might have missed something but I don’t think it’s exclusive to them (or even often involving them)
I might just be missing some context after a long day though
YetMoreSpaceDust@reddit
But, look forward to a future where "voluntary" participation will be a prerequisite for surviving the next round of layoffs. This shit will continue and get worse until we organize collectively - which will be never.
Synaqua@reddit
Bro is dead right. This is a no from me - opt out. I once did a whole internal tool that we desperately needed in my own time, just to have it forced into a bastardised use it was nowhere near ready for and large failure without any compensations. Fortunately I was off that project due to being bumped up as a new Team Lead, but that was the lesson learnt.
We also do occasional hackathons at my company, but they don’t allow for it during planning so you just end up late on deliverables. We also had a situation a couple of years ago where we made a little AI Clippy thing for our product (I swear it was when it wasn’t being done every 20 seconds yet) that was the clear winner across multiple divisions, just to have it shafted for a glorified ToDo list.
The company announced a week later their plans for AI. It might be a coincidence, but I’m still calling BS to this day.
TL:DR; For the most part, opt out of work-based hackathons that are unpaid / above enterprise level. Your yearly review won’t even consider it.
woogiefan@reddit
My biggest problem with those kind of things is that as someone experienced I can surely choose to skip them, but my junior colleagues might feel like they NEED to take part in bullshit like this to advance their career
Careful_Ad_9077@reddit
Like these contests where all the participants win? This sounds like the same but all participants lose.
When I worked at Kenworth they wanted to do the same , only three teams participated.
GammaGargoyle@reddit
Record yourself building from scratch in your off hours and license it back to the company for a fee :)
TL-PuLSe@reddit
Got a source on that? There are armies of lawyers who disagree.
burnin_potato69@reddit
Generally if you're not using company resources they can pound sand
TL-PuLSe@reddit
You are the company resource if it says so in your employment contract. It all depends on what you agreed to.
BomberRURP@reddit
Basically every time those go to court it gets thrown out
TL-PuLSe@reddit
People love to just repeat shit they read on the internet.
You won't read this but here's the letter of the law: https://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html#101
The OG case precedent is US vs Dubilier Condenser
A more recent precendent is Teets vs Chromalloy Gas Turbine Corp.
The tldr is the employement contract gets enforced when it comes to IP ownership.
GammaGargoyle@reddit
I would argue that these circumstances are very different from developing software in your off hours. For one thing, software is often not considered an “invention”. Even if it were, there are other circumstances in these cases that ties the invention to the employers specifically. In software, it’s hard to even sue when an employee straight up steals your code. There have been high profile cases. There’s just no way to claim outside of work software is company IP.
LNGBandit77@reddit
The response is “can’t I’m busy” or you either ask for shares in the company
codefyre@reddit
Absolutely not. As others have already said, the work needs to be done on the clock if the company wants the IP. Your company cannot claim ownership of work you do on your own time.
It sounds to me like your company's C-Suite needs to have a conversation with its legal team anyway, because claiming ownership of work done by employees off-hours is a minefield of potential future litigation. Unless you explicitly sign away your rights, or they can demonstrate that it was built using their resources, the IP is legally yours by default.
Personally, I just wouldn't participate.
TL-PuLSe@reddit
For salaried employees in the US, there is no "clock". You're either employed or you're not, and the terms of your employment dictate who owns the IP.
angellus@reddit
That is not entirely true. There are a lot of rules and criteria you have meet before salaried employees are not entitled to overtime. Software engineers do often meet criteria though.
However, even if you do meet the criteria, it does not mean you cannot be given overtime. You still have the right to ask for it if you employer is asking you to work an unreasonable/abnormal hours and amount of time. And even if you do not get overtime, it does not give your employer free license to make you work more then 40 hours a week. It is very dependent on the job offer you signed, you job duties, and how "normal" it is for you to need to work overtime. i.e. a DevOps/system admin may be expected to do regular overtime for on-call work and that would be considered acceptable. But telling a normal engineer out of nowhere to work 50 hours on a semi-regular basis is not considered reasonable and you can refuse.
Of course, because the US is mostly at-will, refusing can mean getting fired. But unemployment is a very real thing, and the one thing you employer will lie to you about is that refusing to do unreasonable work does not disqualify from it. Employers want to stack the deck against you, so you do not qualify for unemployment, because if you do, it raises their unemployment taxes. Also, remember that hiring a new engineer often tends to be a lot more expensive them just filling whatever demands they have. It can easily be $100k or more to replace you instead of just giving you a raise or overtime.
codefyre@reddit
Only if you're not prepared for it. Anyone writing any serious amount of code as a side project should have an LLC in place to cover this possibility. The LLC should include at least one other person outside of your household (mine is my brother), and there should be a contract in place assigning any IP you generate to the LLC, excepting IP generated for the purpose of employment to another company. The contract should also have a mutual agreement clause stating that the IP assignment can only be rescinded by consent of both parties.
Ideally, you should have this in place before you go to work for another company. The idea is that any employer claims to your IP should be nullified by the fact that you had a pre-existing agreement to assign it to the LLC, which overrides any later contract without the LLC's approval. Your employer can't take it from you, because it wasn't legally yours for them to take.
Is it bulletproof? No, but it gives you a legal foundation to fight any employer claims against your IP, which might not exist otherwise.
TL-PuLSe@reddit
Yep, you can do that and have a much better foundation. If your company's lawyers can frame that LLC as a competitor though, it falls apart. For example anyone employed by Amazon, who has their hand in everything, is going to have a very hard time not competing with something.
kagato87@reddit
Even if you do sign away these rights, there may be an implicit duress.
Especially if you are already working for a company and a new employment agreement comes down. Even if they say it's optional, u less there is a clear benefit to the employee that signature is likely to be seen as "under duress" and rejected by a judge.
I'm with you on "don't participate." "Sorry, I'm spending that time with my kids." (Or if you don't have kids, neices/nephews in town. The company doesn't really know what's up and doesn't need to.)
plane-n-simple@reddit
Sounds like a corporate idea. More innocent in my case, company wide engineering week team building event where teams spend and hour unpaid during the day to build model bridges for a weight competition.
One team cheated, our BUs team image was not shared in the corporate newsletter of the event like all other teams.
It's a completely different scale, however this sort of activity is clearly made for and by corporate. I see this more of a performance for corporate than anything.
I would reccomend you and anyone you know not participate. This will send a clear message to corporate that it was a clear miss. Why would you do free work when you already get paid for it. This will likely send their initiative into a tailspin where they over analyze why the brilliant idea didn't work.
BomberRURP@reddit
It’s a growing trend in the space from what I hear. A few agencies were doing it (hackathon instead of a traditional bid), and the new admin has been heavily encouraging it. The funny part is that according to my friend a lot of firms that are in this space have dedicated “hackathon” teams they send to these things, and when they get the contract they put entirely different people on. The hackathon team memebers literally only work on the hackathons and never in actual product.
Wait it gets worse. Some of these people are now getting pimped out to other firms that don’t have the experience to train them on how to game it lol
Critical-Shop2501@reddit
Negotiate that participants or members that may contributions get some revenue or claim?
Potato-Engineer@reddit
I've been in hackathons where the company owns the IP, but it was done on the clock. (I've also been in one of those where we got a message back from legal that said "we don't want it, you can keep it.")
Doing it off the clock, while the company owns the IP, is missing the point of a hackathon.
darksparkone@reddit
It totally defies the common sense. Why would I do it off the clock and pass IP, if I could do it off the clock and keep the rights to myself/team? Unless OP has some kind of contract stating everything he does on or off hours is a company property, which is questionable by itself.
Potato-Engineer@reddit
Most American programmers have a contract like that. You can ask to have things excluded, even after signing, but there's no guarantees.
Own-Replacement8@reddit
Different stort when it's off the clock but some people also work on it off the clock because they're driven/want to win. That's fine. I did it. It was worth it.
chipper33@reddit
What did you win?
Own-Replacement8@reddit
Mentorship to further develop my idea, an above average pay rise, and the attention of a lot of senior people in the organisation. Put me on the fast track.
FetaMight@reddit
No offense, but being put on the "fast track" kind of hard to measure and so probably not anything at all. It sounds like your employer gained far more from the exchange then you did.
We should be pushing back on any kind of unpaid labour. It's a race to the bottom.
Own-Replacement8@reddit
The siginificantly above average pay rise though, very easy to measure.
It was entirely optional. My manager even let me take time off my main project to pursue this.
LookAtThisFnGuy@reddit
You crushed it, and get paid more every year because of it. 👍
teslas_love_pigeon@reddit
This person has provided zero numbers on what meaningful payment was or what their salary even is.
FetaMight@reddit
A one time raise is not the fast track...
And it being optional is irrelevant.
light-triad@reddit
Ideally your company is making more than you are out of your employment arrangement. If they're not, that puts you in danger of being laid off. OP said they got an above average pay raise, so it sounds like they were paid for it.
nutrecht@reddit
"On the clock" hackathons nowadays tend to be driven by the business, instead of letting devs flex their muscles. So it's basically just working very fast for a long day doing what the business wants you to do.
That's 'work'. Nothing more.
nutrecht@reddit
Well said. There are multiple levels of "missing the point" here. Hackathons used to be fun events where you could flex your brain muscle and basically do whatever you wanted.
Every single company nowadays sets all kinds of rules and expectations that the output of the hackathon is something they can somehow 'use'. So you're forced to build something they want, and then you also get stuck maintaining a shoddy prototype in production once you win. And often the time is unpaid too.
So it's always lose-lose-lose for the developers. What used to be a fun event to go nuts with some other smart motivated devs is now yet another way for companies to extract value from you.
SSA22_HCM1@reddit
All the other times the payment is Little Ceasar's.
thekwoka@reddit
I don' think this is totally crazy, but it should still be "something you've wished we had or done but hasn't gotten normal approval"
nutrecht@reddit
That's still work. I'm not going to sacrifice my free time (my only limited resource) just to do more work for you.
thekwoka@reddit
Oh yeah, it should still be company time.
I was just talking about that specific aspect. The hackathon (which should be company time always) can be limited to at least some relevance to the company, but doesn't have to be "Agreed upon" it's level of utility.
Potato-Engineer@reddit
The company hackathons I've done lately have been on the clock, so no time lost.
I've also used them for infrastructure/dev-quality-of-life work that was otherwise having a hard time getting scheduled. It's nice to remove the irritating parts of work.
kog@reddit
Assuming you made something good, that's pretty cool of the company.
Potato-Engineer@reddit
If I'm being honest, it wasn't any good, and none of us had any plans to pursue it further. It was an excuse to play with IoT, but the final product wasn't usable, and would have taken a lot more work to make useful.
thekwoka@reddit
He made something questionably legal that the company didn't want on the books.
kog@reddit
That could easily be true lol
thisadviceisworthles@reddit
Everyone is talking about symptom, no one is addressing the disease.
Your company is in panic mode. You would be better off using this time to prepare to be laid off.
twelfthmoose@reddit
That sounds terrible. It’s also probably illegal to force you to do it if you are hourly. It sounds like the company is getting pretty desperate.
serial_crusher@reddit
Hackathons are bullshit. Do your job and let other people burn out.
vplatt@reddit
Meh.. I see your POV, but I've seen hackathons used to build real experience in areas where folks didn't have prior experience and it was a real confidence builder and helped launch them into entire new projects. One of the guys I did a hackathon with even built on that experience to bring himself all the way up to a VP position with it. Obviously, he did more than just the hackathon, but it was a good jumping off point. I can't think of a single team member who didn't benefit from the last couple hackathons I was on.
UK-sHaDoW@reddit
What skills does a Hackathon give to become a VP?
vplatt@reddit
Well, in his case he parleyed the learning experience into getting into a project to do ML where he set up the NN, and then he used that experience to actually change employers (whoops! 😁) and obtain I think it was a director level product manager of position in a company that was just getting into that area. He was successful there and then he parleyed that into an a couple more subsequent opportunities.
Anyway, the hackathon wasn't a one stop solution to go directly to that level, but it was the beginning of a set of career moves and he used the experience from that to start off down that road and it took him I think about 3 years to keep building on that to get to the position he wanted to be in. Given that he started out as an analyst before that, which wasn't his real desire, I think he did really well.
Other folks on the team did likewise. Two used the experience to build themselves up from fresh hires into a fullstack dev (again, not instantly) when they were currently stuck in QA roles. Another used the experience to start to build himself up into a cloud architect, which again turned into another job change (whoops x2! 😅), and another person and I just deepened our skills to give us more confidence in our own areas of interest.
HenryJonesJunior@reddit
Hackathons on the clock to build new skills are fine.
"Hackathons" where you do your full day job and then work extra off hours for solely the company's benefit are bullshit.
vplatt@reddit
Exactly. I've never done a hackathon purely for the company's benefit. The company certainly DID benefit, but I only did it for me as did everyone else on the team. I actually had to talk folks down on this because they kind of started where you're at now. I flat out told them to do it for themselves. Pick the part of the project in which they had an interest and just do that. They had a blast!
nrith@reddit
The last one I participated in involved programming a Raspberry Pi to control a LEGO model. I built a cuckoo clock with minions that did a little dance when a CI run succeeded, and fell down dead when it didn’t.
I won.
My coworker got second place. He complained to the judges to have it overruled, but they refused. I thought we’d worked well together day-to-day, but this revealed a lot about his character.
Six months later, he was promoted above me and became my manager. I swear he harbored a lot of resentment about that hackathon and proceeded to make my work life hell, until I quit.
OldeFortran77@reddit
Of course they promoted him to management. You did better work than him! That's how people get into management. They're not that good at the job they were hired for.
ALAS_POOR_YORICK_LOL@reddit
Damn that sounds fun. Nice job
WeedFinderGeneral@reddit
Lol - I literally just had like, a stupid/smart epiphany the other day where I was like "oh my god, I can use LEGOs!" when trying to figure out how to prototype some raspberry pi stuff without a 3D printer.
But that sucks about your coworker, dude
ZnV1@reddit
Screw him, this sounds GREAT. Do you have pictures? Describe it? Don't leave us hanging :)
peterg73@reddit
Don’t you have all that volunteer work to do down the local orphanage? Think of the children!
ptolani@reddit
That's really creative on their part. Points for trying.
Absolutely I would not participate.
ToThePillory@reddit
I've never had anybody ask me to do unpaid work, and I can't really imagine it happening in the places I've worked.
I'd probably say something like "Sorry, but I don't have time for unpaid work right now".
Muchaszewski@reddit
"Sorry, but I don't have time for unpaid work ~~right now"~~
Fixed this for you
AppropriateSpell5405@reddit
"This AI powered software I built is able to say 'Hello World' in one language."
Blankaccount111@reddit
Just don't show up. Solved. Sounds hard but it is not. Every. Single. Person. that was involved in this knows its total BS. They might scoff at you later but thats about it.
Polar-squirrel@reddit (OP)
Absolutely not doing it but the problem always is you get those people will inevitably do it
HopefulScarcity9732@reddit
Being the only person not to sshow up for unpaid work and getting fired sounds like an easy lawsuit to win
IsleOfOne@reddit
Reach out to your coworkers and convince them not to do it either. Then, whoever owns this initiative will be embarrassed.
Blankaccount111@reddit
Working unpaid is a race to the bottom. If thats what gets you fired then nothing at the company really matters anymore.
Puzzleheaded-Fig7811@reddit
Oh man, it’s so very unfortunate. This sounds like such a fun idea and a fantastic opportunity organised by the true leaders of our company but it just so happens that this specific four weeks I’m occupied in this specific time with outside of work commitments. Otherwise I’d be ecstatic to join.
poipoipoi_2016@reddit
On the margin, it's slightly more likely to get you fired.
It's also downright likely that I'll end up doing something very stupid 3 days into no sleep that definitely gets me fired.
This feels like DOGE firing everyone who was on paternity leave.
thekwoka@reddit
You mean made up?
DigThatData@reddit
i don't see the connection, elaborate?
poipoipoi_2016@reddit
When it comes time to do mass layoffs, either your manager does it (Watch out for preemptive backstabbing to put you on PIP) or the very high up muckity mucks do it.
And this feels like "The muckity mucks fire everyone who didn't show up to the hackathon because they don't know you from Adam".
Blankaccount111@reddit
I think its one of those things that if it actually leads to getting fired they were already looking to fire people anyway. There is no way you can reasonably this of another human being and not have some sort of sociopath streak going on.
poipoipoi_2016@reddit
> sociopath
> corporate executives
I mean
Blankaccount111@reddit
I've dealt with a number of full on corpo exec sociopaths over the years. Most of them are complete cowards and will back down if you put up even token resistance to their insane demands. That or go looking for easier targets to abuse.
If you are a critical role they will back off because they are sociopaths and know that you are keeping them in the role they are in and its too much work to replace you right now.
Sure all rules of thumb and such is life that you can get screwed no matter what you do. The big problem is that so many workers in tech are such pushovers and give into any pressure from their boss without any pushback.
JamesWjRose@reddit
Absolutely NO.
Never work for free
zombie_girraffe@reddit
Yeah, I've been given many "engagement opportunities" to come in on my own time and work for free for the sole benefit of the company. I've passed on them all. If it's not important enough to the company to pay me for the work, It's not important enough for me to spend my time on it.
dbxp@reddit
I think you'll find everyone drops out after a couple days. If its unpaid and in your own time you may as well just have a side project.
temp1211241@reddit
Don’t work for free
metaphorm@reddit
if the company didn't pay you for the time you spent working on it, then they have no reasonable claim to own it. probably your contract has an assignment-of-IP clause it that they'll try to enforce if you push back though, and their lawyers are bigger than your lawyers I'm sure.
I would simply not participate in that at all. it's exploitative in the extreme. you're already looking for a new job. time to accelerate that process.
thekwoka@reddit
But much smaller than the government lawyers. It's actually illegal to ask people to do unpaid work.
SilentButDeadlySquid@reddit
IANAL but guessing you are not one either and this would be heavily dependent upon jurisdiction of course but a lot of countries that derive from British common law this:
Let's just take the USA for example, a company will have claims on any Intellectual Property you create while an employee of the company. It does not matter if you are paid, where you do it, when you do it, how you do it. You can do it on Saturday at midnight, at your Mother-in-Laws house, on the neighbors Mac book, and none of matters at all. It also does not matter if they pay you.
Where you might retain IP rights is if the work does not fall under the scope of your employment, and in this case considering the employer is directing them to create it, pretty sure they will make that claim and probably win.
This is not an employment agreement issue, it's US Copyright law, but almost all employee agreements are going to assert this claim anyway.
metaphorm@reddit
you're right, I'm not a lawyer. my understanding of how this typically works in most jurisdictions in the U.S. is that the claim to your IP is not a default if otherwise unstated in an employment agreement. the vast majority of employment agreements do have an IP assignment clause though, and I suspect that is typically held up in court, but like anything in the legal system, a process of adjudication determines what is and is not really enforceable, and that requires a lawsuit and a trial to work out. thus my statement "their lawyers are bigger than your lawyers."
thekwoka@reddit
Pretty sure that's actually illegal. They can't ask you to do unpaid work at all.
Apprehensive_Pea_725@reddit
Normally this hackathon events are organised during working hours, is it's still work that produces new ideas and projects and some value for the business.
If it's outside of working hours why would you partecipate?
Venthe@reddit
It's really simple. I work 9-5, Monday to Friday. If they want for me to work outside of that, my counterparty better have some major compensation; if not - i have a family, i have a cat; hell - i have a dumb anime to watch. But it's still my life and I'm off the clock.
I've done overtime; I've crashed from the burnout; being pissed off and tired day after day; to the point of having to take couple months off. Never again.
puremourning@reddit
Sounds fun. I’d probably do it.
TheFIREnanceGuy@reddit
Massive assholes. Your original contract usually have something along the lines of anything created during work hours is owned by the company but this isn't. It could still be expensive going the legal route so I wouldn't participate at all
c0un7z3r0@reddit
"I can't, I have plans"
coded_artist@reddit
I mean them owning the IP is pretty standard, however if the contract states they own the IP then they are legally obligated to compensate you for the work you've done on their IP. Yes they can say it's training, however if it's training, it's on the clock. They can argue until their bones have turned to dust, but unless they pay for the IP, it doesn't belong to them. Also check your contract regarding moonlighting, if you're working off the clock, then their contract may already stipulate that work belongs to you.
saposapot@reddit
So what exactly are you supposed to take out of this? Really… what’s the BS they sent their minions that this would be advantageous to them?
It’s off work hours so not even free pizza?
freedom2adventure@reddit
How about making a cat meme generator for them.
ALAS_POOR_YORICK_LOL@reddit
I have always avoided work hackathons and generally leave places that emphasize them. I'm here to work not fart around
MrMichaelJames@reddit
Never work for free. Simple as that.
MOTIVATE_ME_23@reddit
That's a new take on "training your replacement."
If it's going to be after hours and off-site, invite the other participants to sequester at your house instead.
Build your own. Everybody learns, co-owns it, and can monetize it together. You increase your take-home pay by more than 1% just by leasing it back to the company.
ValentineBlacker@reddit
If they fire you for not participating, I think a lawyer would have a field day with that. So no real downside to not doing it.
Dorklee77@reddit
Taking the perspective of safety maybe use some AI tool to scaffold out a project. Don’t do any work on it but say you’re participating. When it ends just tell them it didn’t pan out (or whatever excuse). Submit (or don’t) your AI generated nonsense with some pretend mission statement around what it was supposed to be.
The idea is that if they’re looking for “team players” by even suggesting this shit show, you appear to be participating albeit not succeeding - this time.
Hopefully this subscribes you some good will and can extend the window of time between this moment and when you get a new job.
m4bwav@reddit
Maybe they are desperately trying to avoid layoffs?
I mean I wouldn't do that shit, but dumb ideas often come from places of desperation.
Polar-squirrel@reddit (OP)
No this is definitely the vibe. But at the same time they keep bringing on more officer level people who make 5 times what I do and complain devs make too much.
m4bwav@reddit
Managers need more managers under them to become more powerful.
transparent-user@reddit
This is basically a way your employer is trying to extract free labor from you. I too would be pissed if this was even entertained in my workplace. There's something really insufferable with being subjected to the effects of bureaucratic greed/ego posturing. The organization is too big for you to do anything about it and you're forced to move on because they can't treat people like humans and fulfill their obligations. I would even go as far to say this could be illegal moves on your employer's part in a lot of jurisdictions.
DigThatData@reddit
This is kind of outrageous tbh. They can't have it both ways. Don't participate unless they pay you for your time and labor.
rwilcox@reddit
A hackathon for a month!??
I can see a weekend, or 12 hours. But nights and weekends for a month!?!?
No thank you.
dbto@reddit
This is eerily familiar with where I am. I’ve only been there a short time so not sure about raise history, but everything else is currently happening there. I opted to not go to the kickoff.
Polar-squirrel@reddit (OP)
Maryland?
dbto@reddit
Yup
Polar-squirrel@reddit (OP)
Figured I’d get someone lol
yawaramin@reddit
Not difficult to predict ;-)
ZnV1@reddit
What are the odds...
8sweettooth8@reddit
The company cannot legally claim IP for software built outside of the hours in your contract or normal business hours.
They also cannot legally force you to work outside of normal business hours unless it's in your contract.
HoratioWobble@reddit
Hilarious, they want you to work for 4 weeks for free and they keep the outcome.
I can't imagine a single person who would see that as a good deal. They're trying to fuck you and anyone who agrees to it is absolutely insane.
hippydipster@reddit
If they want slave labor, the least they can do is provide the whips. I mean, come in.
iceyone444@reddit
Why would i create something for the company outside of hours, unpaid and get no rewards - if I'm going to create anything it will be on my own machine for my own benefit.
"We want the next facbook/twitter/youtube and you will do it for free and the company/executives will benefit".
Fuck that.
brainhack3r@reddit
Politely say no thank you, that you're busy working on another hackathon during that time. :-P
Ok-East-515@reddit
If it wasn't a 4 week Hackathon, but two days, it could've been my company.
Scary how the situation seems to be very similar everywhere in IT, regarding pay, raises and AI.
blbd@reddit
I've done hackathons the employer owned and ones they didn't. But I have never heard of one they owned on time they did not pay. Nobody should do that and it's likely illegal in many jurisdictions.
angryplebe@reddit
Typically, hackathons are usually company sponsored and happen during the workday. Some people may voluntary chose to work longer if they think it's something that could become a real project they are interested in and could lead.
As for your case, don't worry about. Just so your day job. Nobody will say no to that
nonades@reddit
After hours and they own all IP? Lmao. Definitely wouldn't participate in that. They can and should eat shit
ImpetuousWombat@reddit
Sounds like Voyatek (I left when they started the pay freeze). When they did the freeze it was during 11% inflation and they'd already put off my eval/raise for 6 months. I don't take pay cuts to keep the stock price up.
Time-Mode-9@reddit
If they're paying you, then fair enough. This sounds like they're taking the piss
PoisonsInMyPride@reddit
The company that I'm working for is growing and will be hiring over the next few months. It's a small business in the Southwestern US. I don't know the pay scale, but if you're interested I can socialize your resume.
Affectionate-Aide422@reddit
The company owns the output of our hackathons, but it is on the clock during work hours. I own anything I do outside of work as long as it isn’t a competitor for my day job.