Avro Canada CF-100 Canuck first flown in 1950 and the only Canadian-designed fighter to achieve production status
Posted by jacksmachiningreveng@reddit | WeirdWings | View on Reddit | 41 comments
IronWarhorses@reddit
given recent politics: "LOOKS LIKE BUILT CANADIAN AIRCRAFT ARE BACK ON THE MENU BOYS!"
jacksmachiningreveng@reddit (OP)
That would be good to see but unfortunately you can't just will an aviation industry back into existence after having let it rot for so long.
codesnik@reddit
it'd look just right next to x-wing
FR4G4M3MN0N@reddit
Could be the prototype!
IronWarhorses@reddit
Fun Fact Echo Base is in Canada.
blackteashirt@reddit
Canada needs to rebuild it's aviation industry.
Should never have relied so much on the US.
LordofSpheres@reddit
It was not the world's first all-weather jet fighter; the F-94 and F-89 both beat it to that mark, as did the F-86D.
moparmadman068@reddit
Cf-100 was good. I don't usually go for military jets but when I do, I prefer them to delta winged, and capable of doing Mach 1.9 in a full vertical climb at 3/4 throttle in 1958.
LordofSpheres@reddit
The Arrow barely managed Mach 1.9 on the level at high altitude. Where in the world are you getting a 75% power vertical Mach 1.9 climb? Fuck, it was slower to altitude than the F-106, and the F-106 sure as hell couldn't do that.
moparmadman068@reddit
k
LordofSpheres@reddit
It's a genuine question, because I've never heard anything even like that. It just doesn't stand up to basic scrutiny; an F-22 couldn't do that today. That's why I ask.
moparmadman068@reddit
do some research on the ARVO CF-105. there's several movies about it. it was the first airplane to have on board computers etc. I know someone who knew Jan and had VERY in depth conversations about it. What it was or wasn't as a airplane it up for debate.
LordofSpheres@reddit
I'm very well aware of the Arrow. In point of fact, as I type this reply to you, I'm reading from official documentation of the project. You'll have to forgive me if I find that a smidge more convincing than a secondhand reporting of completely unknown provenance.
It is because of these documents that I feel comfortable in telling you two things: it was not the first aircraft to have on-board computers (unless you have a very strange definition of computer) and it could not climb vertically at Mach 1.9 on 75% power.
To the first point - the Arrow's best claim to the 'first onboard computer' would be its three-axis damping system. And allow me to make something clear - it may well be the first three-axis electrically-controlled damping system which was so critical to flight stability. It was not, however, the first electrically-controlled damping system; these were already being readily accepted for use, for instance in the B-47's yaw damper (which entered service before the Arrow even entered design work). The Arrow's system was no doubt advanced, and was important because without it the airframe had certain conditions that were nigh-unflyable; however, it was not the first.
Similarly, its ground-control flight computer was not the first of its kind. Such systems were present on both the F-102 and F-106, via the SAGE data link, and the F-106 could fly the entire mission excepting takeoff and landing completely controlled by computer. So the Arrow, though again advanced and commendable, was not the first to do it.
Now, let us look at the other claim - the vertical climb. I will be referencing the Avro Arrow Mk. 2 Standard Aircraft Characteristics document, which is available through the Canadian NRC - I'll link it at the bottom. Let us consider the math first, and then we will look at the projected performance from the actual engineers.
The installed Iroqouis is projected to provide 26,000lbf of thrust in full AB, or 17,550 at 'normal' power rating; we'll say that's your 75% throttle setting, to be generous, though it's only 1,000lbf off from mil power. The same document provides a combat weight of 54,000 lbs. So even at full AB, we don't have enough thrust to accelerate vertically, even neglecting drag; at mil or normal power settings we are even further.
But then, perhaps that is unfair. So let us look at what the engineers projected. The absolute maximum steady rate of climb for the CF-105 with the Iroquois is provided to be 44,500 ft/min at sea level. That's at full afterburner, having accelerated to M0.92. That's very respectable. It is not, however, M1.9 in the vertical - it's actually only about 500mph in the vertical. It's also only about 10% better than the F-106, which I should point out actually beats the Arrow to 50,000 feet by quite some margin (4.7minutes vs. 5.13). And we don't think that the F-106 can climb vertically, at 75% throttle, at Mach 1.9, do we?
I think I've proven my point. What the Arrow was as an aircraft is, apparently, up for debate. But while it was no doubt an impressive, capable aircraft - indeed, it had nearly unparalleled high-altitude maneuver for the time - it was not something that would embarrass an F-22 today. It was a great achievement. It was not the be-all and end-all of aircraft. Unless you can provide me direct testimony that these engineers were, in fact, so embarrassingly wrong about the performance of their own aircraft that it should have been capable of more than double their predicted performance, I'll have to take their word for it.
pupilsOMG@reddit
... With Jan Zurakowski at the controls. Legend.
Zirenton@reddit
Gives me WB-57 vibes.
Rjj1111@reddit
Both commonwealth avro designs
ctesibius@reddit
WB-57 was a Martin adaptation of the English Electric Canberra, not an Avro design.
IronWarhorses@reddit
And we all know why we can blame for the destruction of aircraft industry. USA didn't want the competition and they payed corrupt PMs to get rid of it.
Ornery_Year_9870@reddit
There was a huge amount of pressure from the Pentagon for Canada to buy American.
jokerzwild00@reddit
Perhaps. I'd add that because of the exponential growth and advancement in aviation at that time which only the US could afford to keep throwing money at, making everything obsolete at a breakneck pace. The US military industrial complex was undercutting itself time after time by competing manufacturers pushing the bar higher and higher. This fighter (as beautiful as it is) was obsolete when it first hit the runway, as many aircraft were in the 50s. I love Avro's quirky history and many of their planes are simply amazing and actually did compete with US offerings, but even if bribes were taken by corrupt Canadian politicians, they really weren't necessary in this case because the competition was insane.
Notchersfireroad@reddit
The old Clunk was damn good at its job too.
Jdobbs626@reddit
Always set my nerves on edge watching that thing let its rockets fly from those wingtip pods.
Yeesh. Looks borderline unsafe to me.
That said, all in all the Canuck was a hell of a plane
InterestingAnt438@reddit
IMHO, the most beautiful - and actually impressive - postwar jet fighters.
Yoitman@reddit
Have you seen the cf-105?
Kotukunui@reddit
What if we took a Gloster Meteor and just slid the engines inwards towards the fuselage.
sheepsix@reddit
I was taken aback with the obscure tag since I regularly drive by Canucks on display. I didn't think they were that obscure but I guess it just makes me seeing them all the time all that more special.
professor__doom@reddit
Nothing has changed; RCAF still loves their dual engines.
reddituserperson1122@reddit
Not a Pound for Air to Ground: https://youtu.be/CNiI6EmaSiI?si=o08jNghfBtn5oZi5
BobbyBoogarBreath@reddit
Obligatory Polyus recommendation
Brillica@reddit
I read OP’s top comment in Polyus’ voice.
alonesomestreet@reddit
My grandmother recently found a silver Avro Arrow $20 coin that my grandfather purchased for me before he passed. She told me that he held a grudge against PM Deifenbaker for canceling the project, and he never forgave him.
I aspire to be like my grandpa.
Aeronoux@reddit
Fixed wing jet fighters 🤤🤤🤤
AP2112@reddit
Tbf all jet fighters are fixed wing (vs rotary). Did ya mean straight-wing?
BobbyBoogarBreath@reddit
Variable sweep wing?
aether_42@reddit
Variable geometry wings are still considered fixed, for the purpose of aircraft. The alternative is rotary wings, such as on gyrocopters, autogyros, and helicopters.
TheIndominusGamer420@reddit
delta stans here ->
Taptrick@reddit
Are they taking off in line abreast formation? Kind of weird, I’ve never seen this before.
NoResult486@reddit
It somehow “looks” Canadian. Like it would apologize after bombing your capital city.
InterestingAnt438@reddit
IMHO, the most beautiful - and actually impressive - postwar jet fighters.
dv666@reddit
Love the old Clunk
jacksmachiningreveng@reddit (OP)