EU says 'unconditional withdrawal' of Russia from Ukraine is a precondition to amend sanctions
Posted by Triglycerine@reddit | anime_titties | View on Reddit | 335 comments
Type_02@reddit
Sanctioning Russia đ„°
Sanctioning Israel đ€Ź
Keep doubling down on negotiation and they will get nothing
Its funny how they can say all this shit but across the world there is also a country that doing the same shit and have been doing it for the past 20 years and yet not single sanction or anything, people cant even point the finger at them back then or it will get labeled as a hate crime or worse.
Its okay if we did it but you (Russia), No.
geldwolferink@reddit
So Russia is allowed to invade Ukraine because Israel. sure sound logic.
chillichampion@reddit
So the rules only apply to our enemies not friends?
gramcounter@reddit
Do you realise that the ICC has an arrest warrant out for Netanyahu? Your narrative is fake
geldwolferink@reddit
just because europe is a bunch of cowards when it comes to Israel doesn't mean that what Russia is doing is ok.
Type_02@reddit
Nah we should sanction Russia again and show more support for Israel /s
CaptainOktoberfest@reddit
Russia attacked Ukraine unprovoked. Can you say the same thing about Israel?
fiddler013@reddit
Yes.
Itâs a brutal expansionist settler colonial state. By definition, it was unprovoked.
themightycatp00@reddit
Show me the definition
fiddler013@reddit
Amazing argument. Continue with your genocide.
themightycatp00@reddit
Show me proof of the genocide
fiddler013@reddit
Show me the proof of the provocation then.
CaptainOktoberfest@reddit
So I'm of the two state camp. By your definition it sounds like you think all Israel has to be kicked out, is that correct?
fiddler013@reddit
The kicking out and taking over land is a European/American colonial mindset. The faster you get out of it, the faster you realise how empty this line of reasoning is.
CaptainOktoberfest@reddit
So what do you suggest then is done? There are currently Palestinians and Israelis in the area that we are talking aboutÂ
fiddler013@reddit
People of multiple religions live in the same place mostly peacefully all around the world. Itâs not a radically new idea.
smegmaeater52@reddit
Of course, not like Jews lived there before the state was established. And itâs not like they were being hunted by Arabs for sport there over the course of decades. Right?
fiddler013@reddit
Ah so thatâs the benchmark. So is it okay if we from India nuke all of Britain now? We have enough justification by your logic.
ozneoknarf@reddit
Completely unprovoked, absolutely no reason. They just woke up one day and chose to invade Gaza. Ok
chillichampion@reddit
And Palestinians woke up one day and invaded Israel, which borders keep expanding?
Gackey@reddit
They didn't just wake up one day. Israel's entire existence is predicated on the extermination of the indigenous Palestinians to make way for Jewish settlers.
ozneoknarf@reddit
You understanding of Israelis is as deep as people who believe all palestinians are Islamic terrorists who sole purpose is to commit a second holocaust on the Jews.
historicusXIII@reddit
Morally I think that Israel should be sanctioned too.
But geopolitically this does make sense. Russia, unlike Israel, has threatened European countries, so it's logical that the EU takes a much tougher approach against Russia.
ShootmansNC@reddit
If you wanna talk about logic or geopolitics, it's logical for Russia to invade Ukraine to stop them from possibly joining NATO since that's a serious security for Russia.
Morally wrong but logically justified.
TearOpenTheVault@reddit
Except it sent two longtime NATO independents straight into the alliance so⊠Sort of whiffed on that one.
ShootmansNC@reddit
Sweeden and Finland in NATO aren't relevant, simple as that. And as part of the EU they weren't fully independent to begin with.
Through history all the major invasions of Russia from the west happened through the open plains of Eurasian steppe and not through Karelia.
Ukraine is infinitely more strategically important for Russia (and NATO, for the same reasons), than Sweeden or Finland.
TearOpenTheVault@reddit
I mean, you're right in the sense they're not relevant for a practical land war between Russia and Central/Western Europe, but they are still relevant.
Winjin@reddit
Basically it's threatening People That Count, and that's the difference
GothicGolem29@reddit
It is the right thing to do to keep sanctions till Russia withdraws. If Russia gives the eu nothing then sanctions stay indefinitely
reddit_is_geh@reddit
A collapsed, desperate, afraid, nuclear power is exactly what the world needs.
GothicGolem29@reddit
We shall have to see if the sanctions collapse Russia. And what the world needs is Russia to leave Ukraine and until they do sanctions stay
reddit_is_geh@reddit
Russia has been supposed to collapse for years now... Any day now.
Instead they were prepared and deployed an alternative infrastructure, bypassing the worst expectations.
I just keep hearing, for years, that they are on the verge of collapse. It's not happening. They are in a war economy now, and it's working.
GothicGolem29@reddit
So you donât think they will collapse therefore your above comment wonât Halle ?
reddit_is_geh@reddit
I've studied Russo western relations and focused on Ukraine back in 2012 when I worked for the State Department, on the ground. I understand Russia a lot; specifically what motivates them and how they view the world.
Unfortunately it seems like no one in leadership has studied much strategic culture, even though it is supposed to be mandatory training for everyone consulting on the region.
Russian's have no problem in extreme hardship. It's deep in their culture. Further, they feel massively betrayed by the west, and consider winning in Ukraine as existential for their long term security. No amount of pain we inflict on them will stop them. They will certainly push this to the bitter end, no matter how many lives it costs... However the more lives lost on their side, the more angry they get for the west funding this proxy war (they view this as a direct conflict with the West).
So we have a tough situation... Yes Russia will likely survive and weather the storm and achieve their goals, but if somehow the west pulls off a miracle and gets Russia to actually collapse, then we are in for a MUCH more dire situation. Like a really scary one.
This has effectively become a lose-lose situation. The west isn't even giving Russia any sort of realistic off ramp besides, "Tee hee just leave Ukraine, pay reparations, and then we can maybe lift some sanctions giggle!" It's just not realistic in this situation.
The whole thing has been mismanaged from the start. I personally believe the original goal was levying extreme sanctions to the point that Putin would be killed and we'd have a more western regime change... Which failed, so now we are stuck in this quagmire, with an even more pissed off Putin because we literally were calling for him to be killed and are funding a proxy war against him.
It's all bad all around.
GothicGolem29@reddit
I agree with some of this and disagree with other bits but its a very interesting take.
So, I do think Russians can cope with some hardship but certainly they will have problems. They are only human and humans struggle when there is hardship(and if we look back at past Russian history you can see what hardship had lead to previously.) I do agree that they feel betrayed by the west(tho thats an odd view but its theres.) as for existential I think the gov could possibly hold that view but im not sure all Russians do as some fled the country to not be mobilised others protested. I do assume they will take their anger out on the west not on Putin whos causing the deaths unfortunately.
Im not sure if we could call it acheiving their goals. Russia annexed multiple oblasts most likely they will only take the territory they hold so not all the regions. And, they wanted a quick war this has dragged on for three years at huge cost for Russia.
It is realistic for Russia to leave they could do so if they wanted to its a political choice by putin to not do so. And nor should we give them an off ramp besides leave Ukraine we cannot allow ourselves to go back to the age of empires annexing their neighbours so sanctions cannot be lifted unless they leave
I donât think that was the goal the west just hoped to get Ukraine through Russias initial onslaught and hope to get a victory rather than specifically overthrow him. And im not sure why you think its been mismanaged tbh if Putin is delusional enough to get angry at the west helping Ukraine defend itself against imperialism thats on him not the west. If Russia is gonna get angry at the west for doing whats right really we cant help that.
reddit_is_geh@reddit
I think you severely misunderstand Russians. They aren't western. We in the west routinely make the mistake of assuming everyone is also western or at least wants to be western. But this simply isn't the case.
Sure, there are some more liberal, high society, global citizen, type Russians... But by and large, most Russians are down to their bones Russian. And hardship is something that's deeply engrained into their culture. The harder things are for them, the more resiliant they become. It's just part of their identity and culture. A group of people who have an enormous border that historically was always in a state of conflict, being betrayed, invaded, oppressed, and so on... I can't emphasize enough just how much Russian people can tolerate hardship.
Further, I think you have a misunderstanding of their loyalty towards Putin. They genuinely do love that guy. They LOVE a strongman, and are extremely patriotic to the point that even Americans would think it's a bit ridiculous. Again, there is just a lot of historical identity tied around this. They view presidents who don't rule with an iron fist as weak and vulnerable.
Finally, the Russian people themselves feel like this is necessary. This genuinely isn't just Russian and Putin propaganda brainwashing the citizens. The citizens themselves feel like their borders are being encroached on, and it terrifies them. They do not, under any circumstance, want what they perceive as a powerful group who's betrayed them, directly on their border trying to influence everyone around them. This is existential to them to keep adversaries away beyond even arms reach. You as a western may think, "Pshhh but NATO is a defense alliance! They have nothing to worry about!" Well Russian's don't see it that way. Everything is one way, until it isn't. Things can change very quickly and rapidly and the last thing they want is to have welcomed in a critical vulnerability at a key geographic location. Mix this all in with also Ukraine having deep cultural and historic connections, it's like watching Canada ally with China... The US simply wouldn't stand for that any more than Russia would stand for Ukraine allying with the west.
And I understand your point on how we can't allow this "Age of Empires" going on, but they don't care. It's hypocritical of the West to enforce that "rules based order" which we ourselves routinely violate. They actually would probably be okay with this order, if it actually wasn't one sided. But all they see is the US constantly overthrowing regimes they don't like, using shaky justifications draped in empty claims of virtue... So it's a meaningless rule to them. I mean as we speak the US is supporting defacto annexation in Palestine. So again, Russia isn't going to take those claims seriously that we can't violate borders any more, when the US hypocritically does it themselves all the time.
And no, I dissagree on your assessment to think that the USA thought we could get Ukraine through Russia's initial onslaught then lead them to victory. Our own DoD leaks and assessments made this very clear. We assessed that Ukraine can't possibly beat Russia in any scenario. Not a single war game has Ukraine winning. None. Even with our miscalculations on them, they still have everything in their favor. I think our conclusion was the best case scenario was an indefinite stalemate with no viable resolution. So basically an indefinite forever war was our best case scenario conclusion.
Hence why I believe, especially when you look at our actions, that our goal was not for Ukraine to win, but for Putin to be killed. It's why we levied extreme sanctions, and pulled every card we had in the book against Russia, to the point that Biden himself called for Putin's head on live television. Those statements aren't gaffs. Those are signals to covert players what our goals are. It's why Putin wouldn't let even his closest generals come within 20 feet of him. He knew he was a target and had a straight up butchering of all sorts of elites and personal, to ensure his safety. With our last ditch scenario of the failed coup with their private military.
But ultimately, coming back to what we were speaking about, that's what sort of situation we're in. It's not so much how we view things in the west, but how Russians view things in the East. Their perspective of the conflict is all that matters when assessing how far they are willing to go. No amount of virtue and moralizing will change how they subjectively feel about things. And how they feel, is they will fight this until Ukraine completely runs out of men. They've made it clear over 2 years ago that this is now a war of attrition, and they will ride this out for years until Ukraine can't possibly continue. They simply don't have enough men to keep this going indefinitely the same way Russia does.
GothicGolem29@reddit
Imo we donât assume everyone is western
or wants to be western
I get hardship is ingrained in Russias dna I donât dispute that but that doesnât mean there isnât a boiling point and people wonât want things to be a bit better. Russia had a whole civil war in part due to hardship the Soviet Union collapsed etc. and Russia hasnât been invaded since ww2 as far as I know nor been betrayed since then so they havenât always had that happen to them.
Itâs hard to tell when Russia is a dictatorship and doesnât tolerate dissent very well. Iâm sure a lot do like him but Iâm fairly sure a fair few see through any propaganda and will have a dislike or think he can get things wrong.
You say it isnât propaganda brainwashing them but I genuinely think if a lot of people are backing imperialism they are having some form of propaganda.
They may not care but quite frankly that doesnât change what the west has to do. We must not allow that age to come back regardless of what Russia feels. The west hasnât invaded a sovereign country since Iraq and havenât annexed territory in goodness knows how long. So Russia has really taken it to another level so I really disagree about it being hypocritical. It isnât one sided and Russias gov are imperialists they want to seize land build an empire they arenât gonna care about a rules based order regardless of how fair it is.
Yeah we disagree on that I do think the west believed itâs possible Ukraine could win and just helping them was the aim not Putin being overthrown
But earlier you said we handled this poorly but Russia viewing something differently in a way that imo is bizarre does not mean we handled it poorly. The west must defend Ukraine regardless of how Russia feels. Ukraine could continue a while yet maybe a year or two
benzodiazepinico@reddit
This is a very good, nuanced take. Thanks.
aerodynamik@reddit
you mean 'another' . we already got NK
DefinitelyNotMeee@reddit
You misspelled UK, right?
reddit_is_geh@reddit
They are desperate and afraid. They are perfectly fine and happy where they are. Their nukes are a deterrent. They are in a vastly different situation than potentially Russia.
Full_Distribution874@reddit
What the world needs is for nuclear weapons to be treated with less respect. If Russia wants to nuke the world because it can't empire anymore that's their business, and I would hope for a US first strike upon reception of such intelligence but I doubt Trump has the spine to actually do something before Fox News can pre-think it for him.
New_Breadfruit5664@reddit
Are you fucking insane?
If you are serious just grab a gun, hold it to your head and pull the trigger urself what the fuck is wrong with you
Waylaand@reddit
All of there own doing
reddit_is_geh@reddit
What type of answer is this? It doesn't matter who's doing it is when we are living in a nuclear hellscape.
FlakTotem@reddit
These are two completely different events & circumstances. You don't have to like it, but trying to dumb it down to fit here is simplifying to the point of disinformation.
Type_02@reddit
Ahh yes mb what Russia did is worse compared to Israel thats why they need to get sanctioned gorrilion times. /s
Boner-Salad728@reddit
Rules based order, babe.
By official UN statistic Israelis killed more civilians in Gaza in 2 month than Russians in Ukraine for 3 years. Its not even âsame shitâ.
SaneForCocoaPuffs@reddit
Where are you getting these statistics? Estimates for Ukrainian losses are 60-100k
https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2024/11/26/how-many-ukrainian-soldiers-have-died
Boner-Salad728@reddit
I am getting it by watching with my eyes, not buttocks. I can teach you on that too:
1) Google meaning for word âciviliansâ 2) Google meaning for word âsoldiersâ 3) Come back for discussion.
When you are on 3 we can also discuss numbers you provided, I have something to say.
SaneForCocoaPuffs@reddit
Like I said, where are you getting these statistics? There are no official sources for civilian casualties in Gaza except Israelâs estimates.
Boner-Salad728@reddit
I know what wikipedia is, but you can grab all links at once from there.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Gaza_war#cite_note-OCHA-Report-West-Bank-9
Saying yourself that only Israel estimates are present (in your sources), whatever they are, it will lowest plank.
Now for Ukraine. Its even lower than I thought because Gaza stats includes only killed and Ukraine one include wounded too:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1293492/ukraine-war-casualties/#:~:text=Number%20of%20civilian%20casualties%20during%20the%20war%20in%20Ukraine%202022%2D2025&text=The%20Office%20of%20the%20United,as%20of%20January%2031%2C%202025.
nothingpersonnelmate@reddit
Are you pretending not to be able to interpret information to try to win an argument, or have you really just failed this badly? The UN figure is of verified civilian casualties. It's not an estimate like Gaza, it's the number of dead bodies they've counted. It doesn't include the number of dead civilians in places like Mariupol because Russia refuse to let observers in and have since buried the evidence.
b0_ogie@reddit
Civilian casualties in Ukraine include civilian casualties on both sides of the front.
nothingpersonnelmate@reddit
The UN figure includes the civilian casualties they've been able to verify themselves. It doesn't include dead civilians in places they can't enter and observe. During the Donbas war they were sometimes allowed to verify the deaths of civilians on the Russian side of control, but since the invasion they haven't been able to. If Ukraine had never taken back the northern front then the figure wouldn't include the civilians slaughtered in Bucha for example, because Russia wouldn't let them.
b0_ogie@reddit
Download the UN report on civilian deaths and read it. Stop writing stuff.
nothingpersonnelmate@reddit
The deaths in Russian territory that have been verified are because people in Ukraine have been in some way able to prove they are dead. The UN can't go into Mariupol and look inside the mass graves they've dug. The actual number of dead civilians is going to be much, much higher.
Sorry, are you trying to suggest that it was Ukraine who levelled Mariupol?
b0_ogie@reddit
What makes you think it's about Mariupol? Most of the dead are killed due to FPV attacks on civilian vehicles and shelling of cities from MLRS and artillery. If I'm not mistaken, since 2022, there have been about 5k civilian deaths from Ukrainian shelling, 4k in the DPR, and 1k in the LPR. This data was collected by a local human rights organization that summarized all the civilian deaths that appeared in local media and reports from relatives (by name).
Most of these reports are not included in the UN data.
There were urban battles between the armies of the Russian Federation and Ukraine in Mariupol. Of course, the blame for all the dead lies on the side that caused the fighting in the city. But to say that all civilians in Mariupol were killed by Russians is a lie. I believe it was about 50-50. The UN says it knows about 2k dead civilians in Mariupol. In total, about 8k new graves were registered in the cemeteries of Svyazyny and Mariupol. But the exact number of civilians buried in these 8k graves is unknown, as the Ukrainian military are also buried in them. There were about 10k Ukrainian soldiers in Mariupol. About 3.5-4k were captured. The rest either deserted or are lying in graves in cemeteries.
nothingpersonnelmate@reddit
Because it was a city of 400,000 people that had not been successfully evacuated before Russia started tearing it to the ground.
You are mistaken. In fact I've no idea where you're even getting these figures from.
I'd be surprised if this accounts for even 0.1% of civilian casualties.
To check - do you understand that artillery has a minimum range? So if Ukrainian forces were inside Mariupol, and Russian forces were outside it, this would mean that of the artillery shells landing on Mariupol, essentially all of them would have to have been fired by Russian forces. Not necessarily the case for mortars, but for artillery it would not have been possible for Ukraine to be responsible for any relevant amount of the damage to the city.
Yes, because Russia don't allow anyone to check this and have since bulldozed the city. So if the UN know of two thousand dead civilians, that sets a lower limit and tells us precisely nothing about the upper limit.
b0_ogie@reddit
I'll answer it all with one simple comment. Get acquainted with the standards of construction in the USSR. They built houses specifically for the war. Every Soviet house has an extensive basement, which in some way is an improvised bomb shelter, protected from most types of weapons. If I'm not mistaken, Ukraine has built about 5 new apartment buildings in Mariupol in 30 years, so this city is completely built according to the standards of the USSR. This saved the vast majority of the population.
>You are mistaken. In fact I've no idea where you're even getting these figures from.
Because the Western media never writes about Ukraine's war crimes, terrorist attacks organized by Ukraine, indiscriminate shelling and other things.
The mass killings of civilians stopped only when Russia was able to oust Ukrainians from Avdiivka and the Ukrainian artillery stopped reaching residential areas of Donbass.
>To check - do you understand that artillery has a minimum range?
Ukrainian artillery and mortars shelled Mariupol, controlled by the Russians, for most of the battle from the Azovstal terrarium, as well as Russian artillery fired at the positions of Ukrainian troops.
But most of the deaths in Mariupol were caused by shootouts, shelling of houses from tanks and suffocated by carbon monoxide due to arson attacks by the Ukrainian army.
Looz-Ashae@reddit
Moving goalpost syndrome?
Boner-Salad728@reddit
Oh, another buttocks reader, hi.
Show me where they âestimateâ numbers in that part. I see they are pretty concrete in numbers, they are just not sure if it was civilians:
âAs of 4 March 2025, over 50,000 people â 48,405 Palestinian[3][8] and 1,706 Israeli[c] â have been reported killed in the Gaza war according to the official figures of the Gaza Health Ministry, as well as 166 journalists and media workers,[d] 120 academics,[27] and over 224 humanitarian aid workers, a number that includes 179 employees of UNRWA.[28] Scholars have estimated 80% of Palestinians killed are civilians.[5][4][6][29] A study by OHCHR, that verified fatalities from three independent sources, found that 70% of the Palestinian killed in residential buildings or similar housing were women and children.[30][31]â
So it doesnt look like âestimatesâ. You can share Ukrainian estimates then, and, considering the periods, we will decide whos invasion is more barbaric, bloody, weaponised and whatever.
nothingpersonnelmate@reddit
But you've already finished showing that you have no idea what's going on. You didn't even know that the UN figure was only the bodies they've been able to count in territory that Ukraine controls. You don't have any business being part of this or any other discussion. Frankly you should probably shut up for the rest of your life.
Federal_Thanks7596@reddit
We'll apply the same sanctions on you as on Russia and cut you from the West long as you break the international law. Pick 1SS or 2SS, it's up to you, good luck.
The conflict would've been solved in a matter of weeks. But noo, it's complex.
kapsama@reddit
Lol. I'm here thinking why are you offering them a V8 Camaro.
Soepoelse123@reddit
Oh but wait, why do you think the EU was not calling out Israel... Surely you can see that its because the US had pressure on the EU, WHICH THEY NOW LACK
DeaglanOMulrooney@reddit
Which is now gone and Germany is still saying it wants to invite Benjamin Netanyahu and won't arrest him as per international law đ
Orange-skittles@reddit
And I want a billion dollars before I go to work. This demand is just pure theater at this point. To even consider thinking Russia would willingly giving up the territory it sacrificed hundreds of thousands of men and equipment for is just crazy. They have come too far to back down and I would expect to see some serious doubling down (mobilization and rationing) before they surrender unconditionally.
liyabuli@reddit
Well then sanctions wonât be lifted, it is pretty simple.
recoveringslowlyMN@reddit
It sounds like Russia doesnât give a fuck
GothicGolem29@reddit
Ok then the sanctions can continue indefinitely
recoveringslowlyMN@reddit
I think that's fine. And I don't think its a deterrent for Russia. I think it will create more alignment with any states that are anti-West, regardless of whether they actually align with each other.
loaferuk123@reddit
They are 9 months away from economic collapse. They are the ones bluffing.
BendicantMias@reddit
Yeah yeah, we've heard this nonsense for 3 years now...
loaferuk123@reddit
In the same way as weâve heard Russiaâs war is going well. The difference is the statistics donât lieâŠinterest rates and inflation will kill the Russian economy as surely as all those dead young men wonât come home.
BendicantMias@reddit
Yeah sure, like they'll kill Turkey's economy, which has multiple times its inflation? That's without any war. You're just picking statistics that you like. I can do that too - they're the fastest growing economy in Europe, while Europe itself is stagnant, bordering on a recession. Oh and they have that high growth despite the higher interest rates btw, which is even more impressive.
You sound like those people who keep predicting China's collapse every year - for decades now. Except they make a living fooling people with those claims. You're not making any money off of yours. Meanwhile I'm sure you take great pride in celebrating Britains' magnificent resilience during the Blitz, when it was in FAR worse shape and yet still didn't collapse.
You grossly overestimate your own nation, and grossly underestimate every other nation. Not just Russia, but every other nations. Nations don't collapse so easily.
Meanwhile sanctions have failed to achieve their stated goals in nearly every case they've been used, all over the world. That's not just me saying that. There's plenty of analysts who've pointed that out.
In fact the only case argued to be a successful instance of sanctions is apartheid South Africa, which is itself highly disputed cos there was already a strong domestic anti-apatheid movement ongoing by then (directly supported, ironically, by Russia - hence why the two remain close to this day). In other cases, like India, the affected nation even emerged from them stronger than ever - without having given up anything (India is still a nuclear power).
You keep trying the same old losing strategy, and keep convincing yourselves that THIS TIME it'll work lol. Sure bro, suuuurre....
loaferuk123@reddit
Gosh, a real life Orc in the wild.
Try leaving your bunker and emerging onto the streets of Moscow and see how the economy is actually doing. Growth is coming from military need, whilst private companies go bust under the weight of high interest rates and unavailable labour.
BendicantMias@reddit
Typical ad hominem by a Brit. Can't argue the facts as usual.
So is that why Russia was classified as a high-income country by the WB DURING your sanctions? In 2023, to be specific. You gonna deny that too? Probably related to why so many of your companies are still reluctant to leave as well - https://www.politico.eu/article/majority-of-western-companies-continue-business-in-russia-study-finds/
loaferuk123@reddit
I note you didnât bother denying you are a Russian shill posting for the government.
I donât really care about Russia and the Russian economyâŠyou have brought it all on yourselves.
Next time you are in the supermarket and your price of cheese, eggs and bread has gone up, think of me laughing at you.
Therobbu@reddit
No capitalist country is void of inflation. Maybe if you actually did research instead of claiming people with differing viewpoints are government agents, you wouldn't come up with such a sorry excuse for laughing
loaferuk123@reddit
Their history is gaming and UkraineâŠseems a pretty obvious profileâŠ
Therobbu@reddit
I don't like asking this, but...
And? What does that change? This man literally claims he worked for the government before, claiming otherwise would be lying on at least one count
BendicantMias@reddit
Lmao! I deny it, as if that'd make any difference to you. You made the accusation without anything to back it up anyway, so it's a moot point anyway. Where I DO come from though, is still laughing at you. I may not be Russian, but we know a thing or two about entitled Brits thinking they own the world. We had over two centuries of experience with you guys, and it seems little has changed. Have fun watching the remaining bits of your empire slip away, including on your own little island, while the rest of the world moves on from the devastation you guys caused. We don't have to wait forever to laugh, as you do with Russia, cos we've already seen it happen, and continue to this day. So much so that your own former colony now bosses over you lol - that on its own is worth laughing at.
As you said, you've brought it all on yourselves. We have no sympathy for your fall into ignominy and shameless prostration to your old colony. With your history, you deserve it.
BendicantMias@reddit
Like you guys were days away from collapsing back in the day, when in an even worse state? - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Blitz
You have no appreciation for how resilient nations can be, despite your own nation being an example of it. Decade after decade of failed sanctions hasn't taught you the humility to realize that other nations are just as resilient, just as determined and just as strong if not more than you ever were.
https://www.jstor.org/stable/2539368
https://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/why-sanctions-too-often-fail
https://www.economicsonline.co.uk/global_economics/why-economic-sanctions-have-historically-never-worked-to-achieve-their-aims.html/
https://academic.oup.com/psq/article-abstract/131/1/196/6846299?login=false
https://ourworld.unu.edu/en/sanctions-and-why-they-dont-work-very-well
What you're doing to them is as nothing compared to what they're doing to Ukraine, and yet the latter still hasn't collapsed. And yet somehow you believe that they're going to collapse instead lol. The level of cognitive dissonance and historical ignorance is blinding. Anything to pump your own ego I guess.
alecsgz@reddit
Listen Russia is not affected by sanctions. That is why this is among their top requests every time and has literally threatened with nukes over them
Because the sanctions do not work
rowida_00@reddit
Iâd like to see the threat of using nuclear weapons in response to sanctions please.
GothicGolem29@reddit
Idk how much it will deter them hopefully a bit but it would at least show thereâs a cost for their actions. Why when are sanctioning Russia not them
happytoad@reddit
Does Ukraine have indefinite time and people though? Because sanctions, albeit pretty tangible, obviously do not hurt Russia hard enough to surrender. Ukraine, in the same time is getting more and more screwed.
blodskaal@reddit
Lol it obviously hurts them. The Russian economy is going to shits. They are selling raw resources at 30% of global market value to countries that are their "partners". The sanctions are wrecking RU, and they are hoping the war of NDS before the economy collapses.
BendicantMias@reddit
"30% of global market value" lmao! Sure bro, whatever you say.
blodskaal@reddit
Look it up, it's not hocus pocus lol
BendicantMias@reddit
I already have. The 'huge discount'...is $4 lmao!
GothicGolem29@reddit
No it doesnât but that doesnât mean sanctions should be lifted till Russia leaves. And sanctions will hurt Russia somewhat at least
happytoad@reddit
And how do you propose to deal with Russia refusing the ceasefire until the sanctions are partially lifted?
GothicGolem29@reddit
I have a feeling if Trump does his surrender deal shamefully they will accept that regardless of European sanctions. But if he doesnât how the EU should or react is keep backing Ukraine
starvaldD@reddit
They also hurt us in the UK
GothicGolem29@reddit
Not particularly ive not seen any impacts personally or heard of anyone who has but if they did its a price worth paying to tackle imperialism and defend Ukraine
loaferuk123@reddit
I think youâll find we will suffer less if we stand up to them.
liyabuli@reddit
Then there is no problem
Lopsided-Selection85@reddit
All EU sanctions have to be renewed every year (or half a year). With any single country able to block extension. Once the war is over and US will start to lift sanctions, you'll have a really hard time convincing some of the EU countries to maintain them
MLproductions696@reddit
Russia has an economy the size of the Benelux, I'm sure Europe will be fine without them
jtg6387@reddit
Theyâd largely be fine, Iâm sure, but arenât some countries like Germany overly dependent on Russia for energy?
blodskaal@reddit
Once Russia is pushed out of Ukraine, they will be able to supply all the oil and gas EU needs, isolating Russia completely
jtg6387@reddit
Can they? I will admit to not knowing what Ukraineâs oil and natural gas capacity was prior to invasion, but I guess Iâd admittedly be very surprised if they could meaningfully compete with Russia for those exports.
That surprise would be because I know oil and gas are a big part of Russiaâs economy overall, not because I think Ukraine canât do it per se.
Rich-Many1369@reddit
They donât need to compete. Europe has proven willing to pay more for US LNG - and the same applies to Ukraine.
As with Russia, thereâs only a small handful of nations in Europe whoâre willing to purchase anything of them.
blodskaal@reddit
Prior to the Crimea invasion, Ukraine with the help of US discovered an enormous stockpile of oil and natural gas within their international border on the Black Sea. This is why Crimea was invaded, so Putin has international rights to the resources as well. If Ukraine was allowed to build infrastructure to facilitate extraction, Europe will not buy oil and gas from them, and will buy from Ukraine instead. This would be very bad for Russia's economy.
jtg6387@reddit
Ah, that detail helps explain it, so now it makes sense to me. Thanks!
benzodiazepinico@reddit
Once Russia is pushed out of Ukraine, my dick will become 10 inches long.
dungeonsNdiscourse@reddit
And here in Canada we are (or were) pretty dependent on the usa for a trading partner. Our gov't has been seeking alternative trading partners (EU, Australia etc) since Trump announced all his shit. I would assume Germany and other countries could do similar re Russian energy.
It would seem gov't actions can affect a countries standing on the world stage. Who knew? (everyone except prez musk vp Trump and pootin I suppose)
BendicantMias@reddit
You won't once the China shit hits the fan. The more countries you sanction, the more isolated you yourselves are - and the more united they are.
DefinitelyNotMeee@reddit
That's why the plan is to restart buying gas from them as soon as possible /s
sluttytinkerbells@reddit
Is it?
BendicantMias@reddit
Until the China shit hits the fan and Europe throws itself hell in a handcraft over it. The more countries you sanction, the more isolated you yourselves are - and the more united they are. You're creating your own worst nightmare.
Luis_r9945@reddit
Exactly.
I feel like if we are going to let Russia continue to occupy Ukrainian territory, we might as well maintain Sanctions.
Russia's actions just can't go unpunished.
They like to gloat that Sanctions failed, so fuck it. Keep them
Neomataza@reddit
I'm glad they like their sanctions.
Apprehensive_Emu9240@reddit
Then why are they asking for sanctions to be lifted?
recoveringslowlyMN@reddit
Why would you not ask for sanctions to be lifted? Seems stupid not to ask, whether the ask is reasonable or likely or not
Apprehensive_Emu9240@reddit
He said Russia doesn't care about sanctions on them. By those words there is no motivation to ask, is there?
recoveringslowlyMN@reddit
Look. I'm indifferent between a ford escape and a chevy tahoe. Both get me to the destination and I'll be just fine in either one. But the chevy tahoe would be nice. So if I'm in a position to ask - i'd prefer the Tahoe, but am fine with an escape as well.
Russia has clearly not been crippled, at least in the short to medium term, by sanctions and other economic deterrents. So, they are going to do whatever they are going to do whether the sanctions are lifted or not.
In other words, the sanctions might make Europe feel good, but if they aren't having their intended effect then they aren't really a huge bargaining chip
loggy_sci@reddit
Russia and the U.S. are absolutely bargaining about sanctions as part of a peace deal. Itâs bizarre to claim they are not a big part of the deal.
sluttytinkerbells@reddit
yeah but have you thought about a ford escape or a chevy tahoe?
recoveringslowlyMN@reddit
They certainly are part of the bargaining. Iâm saying Russia has continued for 3-4 years now with sanctions in place. Sure if thereâs a decade or two decades of sanctions that probably breaks them.
But if Europe says âwe arenât lifting themâ I donât think Russia simply says âoh well then my god we better stop.â
loggy_sci@reddit
That wasnât what the commenter said. They said Russia doesnât give a fuck, which they clearly do.
Apprehensive_Emu9240@reddit
I think the distinction to be made here is that it doesn't effect Russia's priority goal, the war in Ukraine. It does however effect financial and economic prospects for Russia, which I hardly think is a negligible bargaining chip.
Even on the short term there are multiple hurdles that can't be solved easily:
crusadertank@reddit
Because they can see how it drives a wedge between the US and Europe.
Trump wants peace in this war, and now it is the EU holding back peace
MarderFucher@reddit
Trump specifially wants to gloat as a peacemker, he doesn't actually a give a fuck about either Ukraine or Russia.
Doc_Lazy@reddit
the opposite can apply too. If the EU doesn't do the idiot's bitting, his usefulness for Putin goes down. That is, if Russia doesn't just see this as a charade anyhow...
crusadertank@reddit
Yeah but in Russias view, best case then it will put Trump against the EU and Ukraine and weaken that position, and worst case then it will return to how it was under Biden when they were still winning
For the Russian side, there is literally no reason not to do it.
The EU turning against the US directly benefits Russia
Monterenbas@reddit
The EU is not « turning against the US ». The current US administration is rabbidly anti European and thereâs not much than the EU can do about it.
crusadertank@reddit
That is exactly turning against the US. The EU are not trusting Trump or the US because of it and are trying to become more independent with their decisions and actions
"Turning against the US" doesn't mean hostility. Just that the EU and US will be less close as the EU looks to other options
salzbergwerke@reddit
Trump peace? Where you asleep during his first period?
crusadertank@reddit
I'm just pointing out why Russia are doing what they are doing
As to why Trump suddenly acts as if he has a big concern for ending the war is anybodies guess
Monterenbas@reddit
« Both side » jfcâŠ
crusadertank@reddit
It isn't a negative thing to manipulate Trump to your side.
Ukraine would be incredibly stupid not to try and we have seen them try this.
salzbergwerke@reddit
ACTS is the word. How do you know what Trump wants? Isnât it obvious at this point, that the only way to peace is Russia loosing? Trump wants to make a good deal for himself. How is lifting sanctions on Russia helping peace?
crusadertank@reddit
You are misunderstanding the point still
Nowhere have I said what will or won't bring peace
I just said that Trump is trying to create a peace, as he has said many times. And both Ukraine and Russia are trying to get him to support their idea of what a peace is.
And for the Russian side, that involves driving a wedge between the US and EU
-Percentage-@reddit
Trump didn't start any wars during his first period tho?
Apprehensive_Emu9240@reddit
I guess that's a fair point.
Next_Yesterday_1695@reddit
Are they asking the EU to do it? EU isn't even part of the negotiations.
new_name_who_dis_@reddit
Yes, they don't give a fuck so much they won't stop talking about the sanctions and how much they don't give a fuck.
MS_Fume@reddit
Really? Thatâs really what it sounds like to you?
Monterenbas@reddit
Weird that they asked for sanctions relief then.
TheBlack2007@reddit
If you think we are going to fund them their next war against us and sell them the tools to craft weapons for it you are delusional. Nothing has changed in Russia. What has changed is the US administration switching sides and parroting Putinâs expansionist talking points for their own gains.
Beat_Saber_Music@reddit
well Russia cannot afford to demobilize without conquering and looting Ukraine because demobilization would destabilize Russian domestic front from hundreds of thousands of men either crippled, traumatised, likely without work as the economy stagnates, all with military experience, while the workers who've been happy from the war industry granting them good wage growth that beats inflation due to lack of workers would in turn now be competing with returning soldiers for work and decreased demand for war materiel causing their wages to stagnate or decrease if they remain employed. You're looking at an post ww1 Italian situation where the economy suffered when all the war industry ground to a halt causing mass unemployment.
Sagrim-Ur@reddit
Lifting sanctions is one of Russia's key conditions for ceasefire and eventual peace, that is unlikely to be changed. So, if sanctions are not lifted, war will continue until Ukraine runs out of men and either collapses or surrenders. So, what exactly is Europe's end goal here?Â
liyabuli@reddit
What do you mean? Unconditional withdrawal of Russias armed forces is Europe's key condition for lifting sanctions, what exactly is Russia's end goal here?
613codyrex@reddit
Russia is probably still (mostly) satisfied with the status quo. For what itâs worth, Russia still holds all the cards.
Theyâre bloody, lost a bunch of difficult to replace hardware and will probably have to cut a deal with china to help rebuild by lowering restrictions so china ends up getting access to the military technology Russia usually never exports, opting to export dumb down variations usually.
But unless Europe somehow starts making billions of dollars in hardware in the next 6 months and then moves on from their petty squabbling playing the âwe support Ukraine but we want others to use their budget and military reserves for itâ game, Russia has the time. Europe has functionally already sanctioned as much as they can or are willing to do. The war has degraded into a competition of attrition and thatâs something Ukraine will most certainly lose if they arenât given more western hardware that equalizes the disparity.
Next_Yesterday_1695@reddit
> Â Unconditional withdrawal of Russias armed forces is Europe's key condition for lifting sanctions
Yeah because Ukraine is doing so well that there can be an ultimatum.
> what exactly is Russia's end goal here?
I guess continue war of attrition till Ukraine's demographics can't be recovered anymore.
liyabuli@reddit
Sanctions are not really hinging on the victory or even existence of Ukraine.
Next_Yesterday_1695@reddit
Existence of Ukraine hinges on the ability to achieve long-lasting peace. Like, I don't see Europe or anyone else committing 100s of billions to produce weapons in the next couple years. So, the alternative?
liyabuli@reddit
Europe has commited 800b to produce weapons in the next couple of years. It was announced a couple of hours before trumps peace deal negotiations statements, it was hilarious.
Next_Yesterday_1695@reddit
I don't know whether you have trouble with reading comprehension (it's fine, not everyone is fluent) or just slow. Either way, let me explain. The press-release says: "Â ReArm Europe could mobilise close to EUR 800 billion for a safe and resilient Europe." There's a clear difference between "committing" and "aiming". Nobody has committed to spending 800 billion on weapons yet. But there was a lot of talk about "aiming" to do so.
TheSamuil@reddit
Let me note about this supposed mobilization of funds by ReArm Europe. It is very much mobilizing them rather than allocating them for defense. It's stuff like the EU will not punish member states for going in debt above the agreed level if said debt is being used for the purposes of the military. I'm rather skeptical regarding what is to be achieved with it
Next_Yesterday_1695@reddit
I think the best thing that's going to happen is that sum infrastructure projects are going to be classified as "defence". There has already been a proposal to classify Rail Baltica as such. But I can't imagine Italy or Spain taking on debt to buy weapons from French (as Marcon wants it).
liyabuli@reddit
No, that's not what rearm is, but you gave it your best and that's what counts.
Sagrim-Ur@reddit
First of all, it isn't a condition - Europe isn't negotiating anything atm.Â
But let's suppose it was.Â
Russia has a backup plan - a few years down the line it simply wins the war. It signs peace on whatever terms it feels like, gets Odessa, Kharkov, Nikolaev, whatever. What's Europe move then? The war is over, Russia won, sanctions no longer useful, but they keep hurting Europe. So they get removed anyway, either overtly, or covertly, by just not enforcing them.
Now, what's Europe's backup plan? Sanctions have failed to change Russia's behaviour. Europe has zero other leverage. It's use it - i.e. - exchange them for ceasefire - or lose it. Even more, if US removes their own sanctions, as part of any peace plan, Europe is screwed - US can easily replace it as Russia's main trading partner, and EU can't sanction US.
BasvanS@reddit
Of course Europe is negotiating. Sanctions are there to get Russia to the table. And no, in a few years Russia doesnât simply win the war. The country is on the clock, running out of economic power to support their war effort.
Sagrim-Ur@reddit
Ok, so who is talking to whom, then? Who are Kellog's and Whitkoff's EU counterparts? When and where were the talks last held? What are the preliminary results, agreements reached and next steps?
Russia has been at the table since Istanbul. Where at the table is Europe, exactly?Â
You realise that both countries are at the clock, and Ukraine's clock has a lot less time left on it. Maybe Russia's economy takes a dive five or ten years from now? But if by then every Ukrainian able-bodied man is dead, in hiding, or has fled the country, it won't matter much. Not to mention that we've been hearing about "running out of economic power any day now" for the last three years, and so far it hasn't happened. Still, any day now, eh?
BasvanS@reddit
Russia can indicate when theyâre ready. Europe doesnât play propaganda games. Russia is clearly hurting, but by their own admission they can hurt a lot. So talks will happen when theyâre ready to stop war in Ukraine, I guess.
Sagrim-Ur@reddit
>Russia can indicate when theyâre ready
Russia has indicated they're ready repeatedly. Europe, on the other hand, has repeatedly indicated they're not looking for diplomatic solution - there are a lot of statements featuring "strategic defeat" and "breaking Russia down into smaller parts", but zero statement of the "let's sit down and talk" kind.
>Europe doesnât play propaganda games.
That's the only game they play, actually convincing themselves that Ukrainian victory, or as they put it, "stronger negotiating position" is just around the corner, while in reality Ukraine epic failed through two major counteroffensives and has trouble replacing lost soldiers.
>So talks will happen when theyâre ready to stop war in Ukraine
They will be ready to stop once Ukraine surrenders or collapses. But what use the talks will be then?
BasvanS@reddit
If I say I read your post and care truly about your arguments, doesnât make it true.
liyabuli@reddit
Europe has more or less exactly the same options as russia, with a diffrence that it's bigger, both population and economy wise. Politically, there isn't any will to lift the sanctions, not for the next couple of years. reArm is in full swing, backup plan is very clear.
Trump already had a trade war with europe and lost. If there wouldn'd be for Biden, US would be the second biggest economy by now. Approximately 35% of the revenues of the USA big tech comes from EU, btw. China has expressed interest in participating in the peace keeping mission together with EU.
While I agree that EU is kinda only half way there, I am not quite sure where is the "EU doesn't have any plan, and russia can just win" coming from. If they could win, they would have, but the frontline is pretty much static for 2 years, so I have my doubts about that statement.
Sagrim-Ur@reddit
>Europe has more or less exactly the same options as russia
Europe doesn't have an option for military intervention. It would put it into direct confrontation with Russia, which would likely turn nuclear. And that makes all the difference, since Ukraine is short on manpower, and it's not getting better.
>If they could win, they would have
They're doing this right now. They just finished wiping out Kursk. Ukraine lost around 70 000 people while holding on to it, and it came to nothing.
>the frontline is pretty much static for 2 years
It's a war of attrition. Ukraine is losing everything, from people to infrastructure, much faster then Russia. And it had less to begin with.
liyabuli@reddit
Coming up with the definitive statements like that during an active conflict, especially with all the things happening on the background is just not a reasonable way of discussing this.
Sagrim-Ur@reddit
If you're implying that I'm wrong, then show me where.
liyabuli@reddit
I am not implying anything, I am stating in a very plain language exactly what I want to say.
Sagrim-Ur@reddit
No, you're not. I made three definitive statements. Name a single one that is wrong.
liyabuli@reddit
I guess we disagree on this then, it was nice talking to you, enjoy the rest of your day.
Asleep_Horror5300@reddit
Simple as
tamal4444@reddit
"sanctions" Russian economy is doing better.
liyabuli@reddit
And it can continue doing so.
finalattack123@reddit
Calling it theatre is bullshit.
Just because your negotiating partner is unreasonable. Doesnât mean you NEED to meet him halfway.
SaneForCocoaPuffs@reddit
The EUâs message is sent alongside $22 billion dollars in Russian oil gas purchases. Russia will deposit EU money in their central bank and trash the note.
finalattack123@reddit
The EU has reduced its dependence by 80%. Most countries like Germany by 100%. The remaining countries are bound by billion dollar exit fees on their contracts.
The money isnât being sent by the government. Itâs being sent by citizens who buy it. This money canât be redirected by the government.
fiddler013@reddit
Yes. They reduced their dependence by buying oil from India instead who buys it from Russia. Real independent indeed.
MarderFucher@reddit
This roundaround trade is so heavily overblown. EU doesn't even buy oil from India, the EU buys some diesel and few other refined oil products, but mostly diesel since Russia supplied around 10% of our pre-war market, and right now India makes up 3-5% of that.
fiddler013@reddit
And you think sanctions make a difference larger than that? EU was still buying gas directly from Russia after sanctions. Just stopped buying oil. Lmao
MarderFucher@reddit
The EU doesn't even have sanctions on gas, only now will there be gradual sanctions on LNG being introduced afaik.
fiddler013@reddit
That was exactly my point dumbass. The sanctions were for the show. Optics. Not actual action.
kapsama@reddit
The exit fees sound like an excuse. If Putin is a new Hitler, exit fees shouldn't be an obstacle.
eagleal@reddit
Factually incorrect. The EU still imports shitload of Russian gass just in the form LNG, with a 4x markup through unofficial channels just not directly through Russia.
MarderFucher@reddit
Pre-war LNG imports from Russia were minimal so increases may be huge do not even remotely make up for lost gaseous exports. Pre-war the EU imported 180bn cubic meters of gas from Russia, in 2024 around 45bn, almost exactly half of it being LNG (technically 1/600 of that as LNG is that much denser, but for easy comparison i multiplied it up gaseous equivalent.), the rest mostly bought by Hungary and Slovakia. So thats like 11% of pre-war imports coming through LNG.
I know the source this comes from, the author confused price with total value, which is obvious when one looks at actual eurostat figures. Again, thats no suprise given the very low volume of pre-war LNG imports.
reddit_is_geh@reddit
They still buy gas through intermediaries dude. They haven't stopped dependence at all.
geldwolferink@reddit
because usa gas is Russian somehow?
reddit_is_geh@reddit
No, Russia is selling the gas on the black market to other countries, who then turn around and sell it to Europe.
Boner-Salad728@reddit
Astounding indeed. Maybe its God himself guiding his blessed EU economists and political leaders? We are witnessing His miracle?
Highly likely - yes.
https://www.highnorthnews.com/en/germany-cant-shake-russian-gas-lng-purchases-arctic-yamal-project-skyrocket#:~:text=But%20according%20to%20calculations%20Russian,of%20all%20German%20gas%20imports.
Sagrim-Ur@reddit
It already did. Russia's backup plan is to simply win the war. And they seem to be succeeding.Â
liyabuli@reddit
Do they? The front seems pretty static for the last 2 years.
Sagrim-Ur@reddit
In a war of attrition front is often static, until it isn't. But yeah, it would seem they do. Russia gained around 6000 km. over the last few years (more than the state of Delaware), including several very well fortified towns, and has just finished wiping out Kursk, where Ukraine lost around 70000 troops during the time it was there. Ukraine, on the other hand, has had zero successes. And that is unlikely to change.
nonviolent_blackbelt@reddit
Kyiv. Kharkhiv. Kherson.
That's three major successes.
liyabuli@reddit
It is as likely as not to change.
EtteRavan@reddit
No but the three day operation is totally going to end any day in an Ukrainian defeat. Aaany day now
Sorry, I'm not good at impersonating RT viewers
Ok-Code6623@reddit
russia is currently losing territory on all fronts
chillichampion@reddit
Which front? Only front I could think of is toretsk that too only minor gains.
Sagrim-Ur@reddit
Huh? What reality are you from? It just won back Kursk, and, well, let's just look at AMKMapping's latest, say five notes:
In western Zaporizhzhia Oblast, Russian forces continued their assault operations and have entered the main part of the village of Lobkove. + \~1.57kmÂČ in favour of Russia.
In the Komar direction, Russian forces are slowly advancing and entered the village of Vilne Pole.+ \~0.81kmÂČ in favour of Russia.
In western Donetsk Oblast, Russian forces advanced in the direction of the village of Rozlyv and captured new positions.+ \~4.10kmÂČ in favour of Russia.
In Lyman direction, Russian forces continued their assault operations and have made new progress towards the village of Katerynivka. + \~1.73kmÂČ in favour of Russia.
In the Sumy direction, Russian forces advanced and captured new positions in the village of Guevo, Kursk Oblast.+ \~1.22kmÂČ in favour of Russia.
And that's just past four hours' updates
Ok_Fox9820@reddit
Have they now...
BasvanS@reddit
If this is winning, I donât want to see losing.
Sagrim-Ur@reddit
It's a slow, costly winning, which may ultimately end up in Pyrrhic victory, but it's neither losing nor even stalemate so far. It's a war of attrition, and every conceivable Ukrainian resource - people, money, equipment, infrastructure - is depleting at a much faster rate then Russian ones.Â
BasvanS@reddit
A win is not a given outcome, and right now everyone is losing. Except maybe India and China.
Diaperedsnowy@reddit
One side has continuously taken land and the other hasn't.
And one side has no reserves of manpower
nonviolent_blackbelt@reddit
The US never lost a battle in Vietnam. And yet, they lost the war.
Russia had to retreat from vicinity of Kyiv, they lost all the land they conquered around Kharkhiv, and they're being driven back around Pokrovsk.
So you are wrong all down the line.
BasvanS@reddit
Still not winning
Diaperedsnowy@reddit
Oh, which land is that? How is it currently?
If they get full funding from the EU and USA as last year the best Ukraine can expect is to lose more land every month.
What else can you expect them to do at this point?
EtteRavan@reddit
Everyone is losing, especially the poor donkeys that never wanted to become logistical transport
Sagrim-Ur@reddit
Nothing is given until the war is over. The biggest winner is still the US, though - cornering European market on energy and weapons, weakening Russia, forcing talent and manufacturing drain from EU, plus that muneral deal with Ukraine is likely to go through... And now that US has everything, they're backing off to mitigate risk of nuclear war.
BasvanS@reddit
About that market corneringâŠ
MarderFucher@reddit
I'm sure if you keep telling it yourself you will believe it.
Sagrim-Ur@reddit
Uh-huh. Which resource Russia has less of or is losing faster, then?
whitecow@reddit
Well Russia is loosing everything at a higher rate but yes, they have more of everything. Doesn't change the fact that with how Russian society is structured this war might cost them a long recession or even an economic collapse.
Sagrim-Ur@reddit
No, Russia's losing everything at a lower rate *and* they have more of everything. Like, ten million people fled Ukraine, taking their taxes and labor away from Ukraine. Of them around 650,000 men of draft age. Add that to Ukrainian battlefield losses, and both manpower and money loss clearly favors Russia. Same with infrastructure - how many major Russian power plants were hit or occupied, compared to Ukraine's? And considering that most of that infrastructure was build by USSR in the first place, Russia can fix the damage way easier then Ukraine.
MarderFucher@reddit
Nice near-empty military yards you got there btw.
Sagrim-Ur@reddit
Most people, myself included, are not like you, they don't guzzle anyone's cum, and you can stop too (unless you like it, then by all means go on, no judgement)
psmgx@reddit
what's that meme about how if you put a snail in Donbas and, traveling at a literal snail's pace, he'd have made it to Kyiv already
meanwhile it's like 13km from Bakhmut to Chasiv Yar, and in exchange the Russians had all of their refineries blown up and lost hundreds of thousands of troopers.
Ukraine shouldn't have held on to Bakhmut that long and it cost them, though.
HikariAnti@reddit
They manged to occupy around ~20% of Ukraine in 3 years. That means they would need at least 12 years to take the rest (assuming an average rate). By that time Europe has likely armed itself to the teeth, and the Russian economy would be on the brink of total collapse (if it hasn't happened much earlier). Putyin would be 84 years old if he is even still alive. - > Russia will be unable to hold onto the conquered territories long term.
Not exactly a clear win to say the least.
Hyndis@reddit
Wars of attrition are not fought at a linear rate.
Both sides grind each other down spending men and materiel. Eventually one side runs out and then there is a rapid collapse, often within a matter of weeks for total collapse.
We saw this in Syria not long ago where a decade long war of attrition abruptly ended in just a few days with Assad fleeing the country. Once his army ran out of supply it was all over.
ShootmansNC@reddit
It also ran out of the will to fight.
And Ukraine is teethering dangerously close to that edge.
Neomataza@reddit
Slowly inching forward and sometimes slowly inching backwards used to be called a stalemate, but sure, let's call it winning.
613codyrex@reddit
The stalemate is still functionally a benefit to Russia and an unacceptable place to end for Ukraine.
While itâs been mostly disastrous for Russian military to get this bloody when they reached Kyiv but couldnât hold it. This stalemate is bad for Ukraine.
Sagrim-Ur@reddit
Hard failing two major counteroffensives in a row, losing key frontline fortresses and getting bogged down in Kursk only to eventually get evicted with nothing to show for it but 70 000 dead soldiers used to be called losing, but sure, let's call it a stalemate.
MarderFucher@reddit
so nice the kremlin has people assigne to a_t to spread their made up numbers not even russian believe, good work little dude!
Sagrim-Ur@reddit
Right. Totally made up numbers. In reality, Kursk was a huge success for the AFU, and they're all still there, bravely holding that nearby NPP they captured, hardly any losses at all, it's just no one is telling us little people because opsec.
MarderFucher@reddit
noun: strawman
1.an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument. "her familiar procedure of creating a straw man by exaggerating their approach"
2.a person regarded as having no substance or integrity. "a photogenic straw man gets inserted into office and advisers dictate policy"
Sagrim-Ur@reddit
Ad hominem (Latin for 'to the person'), short for argumentum ad hominem, refers to several types of arguments that are usually fallacious. Often currently this term refers to a rhetorical strategy where the speaker attacks the character, motive, or some other attribute of the person making an argument rather than the substance of the argument itself. This avoids genuine debate by creating a diversion often using a totally irrelevant, but often highly charged attribute of the opponent's character or background.
Fancy-Management9486@reddit
But you believe in 800k russian casualties right?
Neomataza@reddit
Last year they also told me everywhere that Ukraine will never step foot in Russia for the entire war, but sure, let's predict the entirety of the war just by news reachign us this very instance.
MrOaiki@reddit
What is there to negotiate about?
MrCabbuge@reddit
Don't worry, it looks like the US is going to bail them out again
chillichampion@reddit
Ukraine should just win then.
FRcomes@reddit
Lmao, "homeless should just to buy a house" moment
DasUbersoldat_@reddit
Just shows that Europe isn't interested in ending this proxy war.
UnlikelyAssassin@reddit
Russia are the invaders. Russia can end this war any time they like by simply leaving Ukraine.
runsongas@reddit
its going to end like cyprus where the EU won't recognize the occupied parts but de facto it will be Russian territory. trade will resume once active hostilities cease, I don't see the EU continuing sanctions out of spite like the US and Cuba.
DasUbersoldat_@reddit
Imagine expecting the enemy to surrender when they're winning. These EU top diplomats aren't the brightest bunch, are they?
katherinesilens@reddit
I have something stupider: imagine expecting the enemy to do business with you and fund your economy when you are invading. Russian diplomats don't seem bright either, and neither are you.
DasUbersoldat_@reddit
That's exactly what Europe is doing though?
katherinesilens@reddit
OK dumbass. Call me when the EU begs to lift Russian sanctions.
DasUbersoldat_@reddit
That's funny. The EU shot down the Kallas rearmament plan just this week because the interest in the Ukraine conflict is basically gone. But keep coping and seething. Ukraine falls when the orange donut YOU elected pulls out.
gnufoot@reddit
So... which is it? You're claiming Europe doesn't want the proxy war to end while simultaneously saying they have lost interest in the conflict.
DasUbersoldat_@reddit
There's a fundamental difference between the nation states and the unelected bureaucrats in Brussels...
katherinesilens@reddit
I didn't vote for no orange fuckwit, as you can probably tell by the fact that I've not got my gob as full of Russian cock as you.
pimmen89@reddit
Then itâs not a peace treaty, itâs a capitulation Russia is after. Capitulating would mean that Russia can just attack again after itâs rebuilt itâs military. Right now, they donât have the funds to keep the war going for another year.
DasUbersoldat_@reddit
Oh right, the '2 more weeks till Russia collapses'-argument. At what point does a Redditor finally break the cognitive dissonance?
pimmen89@reddit
I donât think thereâs 2 more weeks till Russia collapses, but in the fall they have to scramble for other ways of funding the war, and China has stopped lending money to them.
DasUbersoldat_@reddit
!remind me 2 weeks
pimmen89@reddit
Why? The fall is not in two weeks. Russiaâs sovereign wealth fund runs out in August, which is not in two weeks.
DasUbersoldat_@reddit
I'm giving you 2 weeks time to rethink your argument.
pimmen89@reddit
You think something major will change in two weeks? Two weeks seems a bit arbitrary, the stop on Chinese lending to Russia began a couple of months ago, that's why Russia has to start draining their sovereign wealth fund.
DasUbersoldat_@reddit
You're the one who's been saying '2 more weeks' since 2014.
pimmen89@reddit
I've never said "two more weeks", Russia's economy has been very resilient because of their ties with China. Now that money has dried up and they are running a budget deficit, they haven't done that for many years. Are you sure you're not confusing me with someone else?
gnufoot@reddit
Right so in your brain, putting sanctions on the aggressor of a war, that won't go away until they stop being the aggressor of a war, is encouraging more war?
Russia can end this at any time they want, yet you're bitching on Europe? You want Europe, and Ukraine in particular, to accept a peace on Russian terms? Your path to peace is surrender? It's such softbrain shit to blame war on the victim (and those on the victims side) because they aren't giving the aggressors everything they want.
Monterenbas@reddit
Not ending this proxy war, on Putinâs terms*
DasUbersoldat_@reddit
You do realize they're winning, right?
Monterenbas@reddit
They should have no trouble ending their war then.
DasUbersoldat_@reddit
So you do want them to get everything.
Monterenbas@reddit
They sure as hell not getting any sanctions relief from the EU.
DasUbersoldat_@reddit
You know we still buy Russian oil and gas through countries like though, right? We're just paying me for the middleman.
Monterenbas@reddit
K, they got no reasons to complain then.
DasUbersoldat_@reddit
They don't. Europe does. Haven't you noticed we've been increasingly voting for pro-Russia right wing parties?
Monterenbas@reddit
No, I even believe that the MAGA clown show have tempered people enthusiasm for pro-Russian populist party.
DasUbersoldat_@reddit
That's funny, because in my country they're polling higher than ever.
Monterenbas@reddit
Cool
DasUbersoldat_@reddit
Cool
Chroma_primus@reddit
Putin can't even agree to a ceasefire
DasUbersoldat_@reddit
A ceasefire that demanded Russia stop using their strongest assets in the war. Lmao, you Germans invented Realpolitik but completely forgot it existed.
Chroma_primus@reddit
I'm talking about Putins porposal not to hit energy infrastructure that would have benefitted russia the most.
DasUbersoldat_@reddit
No it wouldn't. Ukraine has been drone striking Russian infrastructure for months. That's BAD for Russia.
Chroma_primus@reddit
Yes it is one of the areas where ukraine had great success so it would be in russias interst to stop the strikes
finalattack123@reddit
You mean war of aggression by Russia.
Ukraine is defending its home. Itâs not a proxy war for them.
wq1119@reddit
An upvoted comment on this sub a few days ago said that Ukraine is a non-sovereign Western puppet... it's not even a real sovereign state to begin with in the mindset of these people.
The root of the justifications for the invasion is that Ukraine does not actually exists, either because the Soviet Union was illegally dissolved, or some Triune Greater Russian Nation/Kievan Rus Nationalist LARP, depending if the person talking is far-left or far-right.
shieeet@reddit
Are.. are you suggesting Russia is not only losing the war, but will eventually surrender? Unconditionally?
Orange-skittles@reddit
Ah no I was not. I was suggesting that Europe has a extremely long way to go before Russia reaches the point of unconditional withdrawal (basically surrender in this context)
shieeet@reddit
Ah, agreed then.
CrudelyAnimated@reddit
This demand is the baseline. From here, we consider what Russia owes Ukraine in reparations for the damages caused to land, infrastructure, and population. "Unconditional withdrawal" from all Ukraine territories including Crimea is the starting point. I'd propose we move the entire border 1km due East. Every fence, every checkpoint, every highway stop. At Russia's expense. And there is zero bullshit in my request. This is step 1.
Aaron_Hamm@reddit
Then sanctions don't get amended.
Simple as
qjxj@reddit
That's what they're saying. It's not happening.
-Copenhagen@reddit
Sunk cost fallacy.
I am fairly sure Putin has heard of it, even if you haven't.
sehns@reddit
Oh shit an actual sensible take, at the top of the thread? Is this Reddit?
gnufoot@reddit
How is it theater? It doesn't have to happen. It just means that sanctions on Russia will stay. As they should.
Buy_from_EU-@reddit
To even think that Europe is dropping the sanctions before Russia collapses is also delusional
Monterenbas@reddit
Just like Russians is crazy to believe that get to invade, destroy, steal the land of Ukraine and not get sanctioned by the EU in return. Absolutely delusional.
GothicGolem29@reddit
Ok then no sanctions relief EVER
SaneForCocoaPuffs@reddit
Russia has purchased more oil and gas from Russia than theyâve sent in military aid to Ukraine.
This is with sanctions right now.
The EU is a paper tiger without Americaâs backing. Their words have neither threat nor meaning. They talk big game and flop in implementation.
loggy_sci@reddit
You didnât read the article. Russia says that the U.S. promised to lift sanctions, but most of the sanctions listed are by the EU, which has no plan to drop them.
Mob_Killer@reddit
US sanctions are the only ones that matter. Imagine US companies starting to trade Russian oil, like buying it(with discount ofc) and then selling it to the EU, for example.
loggy_sci@reddit
Clearly not, given that Russia is negotiating about the end to sanctions imposed by the EU. The US needs EU consent to end sanctions for the Blaxk Sea deal to go thru. Your âfeelingsâ about what matters doesnât line up with what Russia itself is saying.
The EU could state that they arenât going to import Russian oil from U.S. companies and try their best to keep Russian oil out of their markets.
finalattack123@reddit
The EU has reduced its dependence on Russian oil and gas by 80%.
Enough of this bullshit narrative âthe EU isnât tryingâ to reduce its dependence.
SaneForCocoaPuffs@reddit
âTryingâ
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/feb/24/eu-spends-more-russian-oil-gas-than-financial-aid-ukraine-report
Theyâll keep trying and failing until Ukraine falls. Then they wonât need to try anymore, they can blame the US for failing Ukraine, and then repeat their threat to retain their meaningless sanctions while they send Russia another couple billion dollars.
finalattack123@reddit
The fact they reduced it by so much so quickly is honestly astounding.
The reason they have reduced it by 80% and not a full 100% is smaller countries who have long term contracts with severe exit penalties.
SaneForCocoaPuffs@reddit
Right now, the EU sends more money to Russia than they send to Ukraine. They could fix it two different ways: less to Russia or more to Ukraine
Both ways they failed with excuses. Itâs too hard to send Russia less money and itâs too hard to send Ukraine more money. All the criticisms that can be leveled on the US are significantly more true for the EU.
Thereâs a reason why Ukraineâs fate is in the hands of the US despite the unreliability. Because the US is Ukraineâs only ally who has something more than âastounding attemptsâ in their pocket.
Hopefully that fabled EU âloss of trust in Americaâ might actually drive some real changes, though we know that their real plan is to grandstand for 4 years and hope the Democrats win the next election
Boner-Salad728@reddit
This. Sovereign EU who dont jump in USA âdemocracy spreadingâ adventures and mind its own pragmatic business will be much better peace guaranty on the continent than anything we have now.
And yes, unlikely it will happen. They will just wait for ânext democratic administrationâ to come, soothe them and whisper âit is overâ.
Very favourable to USA trade contracts and other concessions Trump manage to get will stay, tho. Ost-India Company style.
historicusXIII@reddit
The biggest peace guarantee would be your country minding its own pragmatic business instead of setting up "autocracy spreadingâ adventures
Boner-Salad728@reddit
We are minding our own very pragmatic business just now. But thank you, Belgium opinion appreciated.
hypewhatever@reddit
To compare trade with military and financial help is such a bad faith argument. On top of aid the EU had a trade volume with Ukraine of 23 billions too.
You have no point really.
finalattack123@reddit
I agree the EU should do more. And that the US has stood up to help in the past. But itâs mainly due to how they are structured.
The U.S. has fuckloads of ordinance just sitting around - some of it expiring. Use it or lose it for a lot of what they send.
The U.S. stepping aside is going to be a bit of a lose-lose. Because they will still use that ordinance. Just to bomb or fund other wars.
Wait and see.
SaneForCocoaPuffs@reddit
The EU would have fuckloads of ordinance if they maintained their military spending at higher levels.
Itâs hilarious and infuriating when Europeans grandstand about Americaâs bloated military and shitty healthcare when THEY are the beneficiaries of said bloated military.
That said, I admit Germany done admirably to fix this mess. They arenât perfect but at least they tried, fixed longstanding issues, and put some good results.
finalattack123@reddit
Sure. But historically you have the US insisting on providing the ordinance. They are a NATO ally. Spending a lot themselves makes no sense.
Who could predict the US would side with Russia? Itâs not easy to see.
SaneForCocoaPuffs@reddit
The US didnât side with Russia. Russians donât have any US bombs or troops and many sanctions are still in effect.
Let me put this another way. What is Europe doing to stop gang violence in Mexico and Haiti? Why isnât the EU sending billions of dollars to fight the Sinaloa cartel? Isnât that what allies do?
Oh right, they arenât Europeâs problem because those problems are in the Americas. Why should they help?
All the US is doing is acting like the EU. Itâs that simple.
FlyingVolvo@reddit
Where do you think the E.U has been buying most of their military equipment from, including long term maintenance and upgrades? Does that money just disappear into thin air as soon it reaches the shore of the United States where it also gets produced entirely by robots in robot run facilities?
The U.S has insisted on being the premier security guarantor for the E.U not because it's a purely transactional money in money out deal but because it's been mutually beneficial, including making the U.S taxpayer pay less through joint procurement of weapons and systems with higher volumes making the individual weapons cheaper and subsidizing critical long term commitment such as keeping production lines running in the United States and giving workers jobs.
This sort of narrow minded, purely transactional view of looking at monetary value may seem attractive at a glance since it's easy to understand, but the reality is far more complex then what we may wish it was.
finalattack123@reddit
Completely different topic.
SaneForCocoaPuffs@reddit
Why is it unreasonable for America to not send billions to defend Europe, but itâs reasonable for Europe to not send billions to defend America?
finalattack123@reddit
I never said itâs unreasonable. I havenât commented on this new topic at all.
But - Iâll address this new topic.
Yeah. Itâs fine. The U.S. isnât obliged to do anything. Nobody said they have to.
But itâs stupid for the US to get angry at choices THEY MADE THEMSELVES. Nobody forced them.
SaneForCocoaPuffs@reddit
You called the US refusing to help Ukraine âtaking Russiaâs sideâ.
Do you think France is taking the Sinaloa Cartelâs side?
finalattack123@reddit
Not been watching the negotiations I take it.
SaneForCocoaPuffs@reddit
Words are words. Actions are actions.
If the US were to import $22 billion in Russian oil annually starting tomorrow they would still be less of a Russian ally than the EU is.
Europeâs noble words provide Ukraine little comfort.
finalattack123@reddit
Being friendly with Russia in negotiations and advocating their position isnât âjust wordsâ
SaneForCocoaPuffs@reddit
Neither is $22 billion.
finalattack123@reddit
Which is Iâve explained isnât easy to avoid paying.
These smaller countries canât afford the exit fees. But the contracts will eventually expire.
SaneForCocoaPuffs@reddit
Personally, if I was leading Russia or Ukraine, I would prefer the cash.
finalattack123@reddit
Very simplistic view you have on the world
SaneForCocoaPuffs@reddit
Cash kills Ukrainian troops. Donald Trump insulting Zelensky on TV kills slightly less.
The EU is responsible for a large chunk of the dead Ukrainians for the past few years.
finalattack123@reddit
You seem to be a wildly new tangent. Desperate to paint the EU as evil and US as good/benign.
SaneForCocoaPuffs@reddit
Itâs not a hard dynamic. Who is helping Russia kill Ukrainians?
The EU helps Russia pay soldiers and manufacture guns. EU dollars are converted into the bombs that strike Ukrainian power infrastructure and schools.
The US sometimes insults Zelensky on TV.
finalattack123@reddit
Very desperate it appeara
finalattack123@reddit
Iâd say the US abruptly stopping its intelligence sharing has a more direct impact on dead soldiers.
Money isnât Russias bottleneck.
SaneForCocoaPuffs@reddit
Stopping something theyâve already been giving is worse than helping Russia fund the war?
And since money isnât a bottleneck then these sanctions are all meaningless anyway.
finalattack123@reddit
Pretty specious reasoning
finalattack123@reddit
You DO realise itâs not the EU government. But people living in the EU sending the money.
These are two seperate entities. The citizens and the government.
DeaglanOMulrooney@reddit
By buying it from India who buys it from Russia đ
We pay more for the same thing and Russia gets its money still
finjeta@reddit
Well go on, tell us how much did the EU bought from Russia and how much are they buying from India today.
BudgetHistorian7179@reddit
Is this the same EU that spends more on Russian oil that in financial aid to Ukraine? https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/feb/24/eu-spends-more-russian-oil-gas-than-financial-aid-ukraine-report
I guess this is another "We demand to be taken seriously" moment for EU...
FlakTotem@reddit
to be fair, the oil it does take is down like 90%, and it's only 'more' if you exclude military aid.
royal_dansk@reddit
What do they intend to do if Ukraine agrees to give up those territories as part of a negotiated settlement with Russia? What do they intend to do if, after that, Ukraine begins trading with Russia again? Sanction Ukraine for violating their embargo against Russia?
Winjin@reddit
They'll just wait until literally no one gives a single duck about Ukraine and then quietly ignore them and lift them slowly over some other things - that's my guess if Ukraine and Russia actually make peace and it all really calms down and they start making repairs and all
royal_dansk@reddit
To add to your comment, what do they intend to do if Ukraine agrees to give up those territories as part of a negotiated settlement with Russia? What do they intend to do if, after that, Ukraine begins trading with Russia again? Sanction Ukraine for violating their embargo against Russia? Will they sanction the US, as well?
Turgius_Lupus@reddit
Just reinforcing Putin's recent statements to industry leaders that the sanctions are never going to go away and the government will continue its current course.
ArticArny@reddit
Someone's super secret orange agent is trying to impress his boss just before bonus are handed out at work.
giant_shitting_ass@reddit
That's great but Russia's been taking more Ukrainian territory despite EU sanctoins just fine. Maybe it should start sending Ukraine more aid and buy less Russian energy instead?
geldwolferink@reddit
At the pace slower than a snail, the only way for Russia to win is with USA support.
Pklnt@reddit
If you think victory means Russia marching in Kiev or Ukraine marching in Sevastopol, neither will actually win.
jorel43@reddit
Like the United States before it, this is Russia's Cuban missile crisis. Russia will nuke the entire world before they back down. Ukraine is not worth the end of civilization.
mnmkdc@reddit
Well the Cuban missile crisis was kinda Russiaâs Cuban missile crisis lol. Iâm not really convinced that Russia fears nato is going to attack it. This is a war of aggression with the goal of taking land. The only real fear they have of nato is that it will prevent their expansion.
miniprokris@reddit
"Sanctions on Russia don't work."
Okay. Let's add more.
empleadoEstatalBot@reddit
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coverageanalysisbot@reddit
Hi empleadoEstatalBot,
We've found 11 sources (so far) that are covering this story including:
The Straits Times (Leans Right): "EU says âunconditional withdrawalâ of Russia from Ukraine is a precondition to amend sanctions"
Reuters (Center): "EU says 'unconditional withdrawal' of Russia from Ukraine is a precondition to amend sanctions"
U.S. News (Leans Left): "EU Says 'Unconditional Withdrawal' of Russia From Ukraine Is a Precondition to Amend Sanctions"
Of all the sources reporting on this story, 50% are left-leaning, 20% are right-leaning, and 30% are in the center. Read the full coverage analysis and compare how 11+ sources from across the political spectrum are covering this story.
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