This sub in a nutshell

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That's great! It's much better than what we had a few years back that those positive guys told everyone "you can do it, everything is possible" and then we had truckers/waiters asking whether they were able to become a developer. I hate it so much because I don't think IT is a good job, it's only good pay but the work is hell.

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druman22@reddit

I learned coding and stuff just as a hobby to create stuff, mostly for myself. I'm considering turning it into a career but seems like most people here are just for the job and not because it's fun.

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AppState1981@reddit

Q: How do I get a job in programming with no CS/BIT degree?
A: Get a job in an office and become the default IT guy. Then create some databases and add a front end. Create some additional apps while doing your normal job. You are building your own experience for your resume. We have hired people who did that.
But give up the idea that just knowing stuff will get you hired. You need to have experience where you were paid.

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siasl_kopika@reddit

> A: Get a job in an office and become the default IT guy.

Or... dont do that and just apply for the job you want.

If you can pass a skills test, noone cares about degrees.

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askreet@reddit

No one cares about degrees? Anywhere? Wild take.

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siasl_kopika@reddit

honestly they havent since the late 90's. If people are telling you your degree is not good enough, its an excuse.

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askreet@reddit

I've never heard it directly, but still a wild take to believe your career represents all employers. At most, what, we each work 8, maybe 10 jobs?

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siasl_kopika@reddit

funny how you assume its anecdotal and not systemic.

colleges stopped teaching CS and started rubber stamping CS degree's en masse.

The whole point of a degree- to make sure a candidate is worth considering, was rendered moot by bachelor mills our universities have become. Literally over 20 years back.

Pretty much all corporations and even the government - the biggest stickler for the rules, will ignore degree requirements. Many postings that advertise requiring one in reality dont.

The truth is nobody cares, because the US college system is become garbage.

A degree is more helpful for getting into management. but it doesnt matter much to single contribs.

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askreet@reddit

Got any citations for that or just vibes?

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siasl_kopika@reddit

Might as well ask me for a source to show the sun rises in the morning. talk to anyone who has done management in the last 20 years. If you think the college system is working well, you are wildly out of touch.

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Intelligent-Turnup@reddit

My current job is rebuilding the work of someone who had done this... I've spent so many days shaking my head at the half baked solutions that were implemented. (Yes, I'm the first to wince at some methods of my own early programming)

It just kills me when someone goes Google+copy+paste until XYZ appears to work without refactoring, any sold foundation of data structures (Excel doesn't count!) or any thought to future maintenance!

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askreet@reddit

This was my trajectory more or less - worked in a call center and built tools to help my team with mundane shit. Got a move to sysadmin, then syseng, then started working on infrastructure eng roles (what we now call platform engineering). The trick is each time having actually made things that solve real problems and being able to talk to them.

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HirsuteHacker@reddit

I got my first dev job after doing a Web dev course, which didn't give any sort of formal qualification but did mean I had a solid portfolio. I got a fairly low paying first job, then 18 months later I got a landed a proper software engineering job. You can absolutely get dev jobs with no prior experience and no degree, you just need to have other ways of proving you know your stuff.

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Potatoroid@reddit

This is the approach recommended in 100devs, especially as people are doing this as a career change.

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Atlamillias@reddit

This is kind of what happened to me. I was working for a small business because I had a "knack for electronics", where we managed a lot of data manually. Got tired of making dumb mistakes, so I learned Python. Eventually, the owner moved out of state. I got hired at larger company based on my prior experience and "knack for programming". Now all I do write apps and manage a MSSQL database for our group that I implemented, all while moonlighting as the group's IT guy. Which isn't what I'm paid to do but I enjoy it a lot more lol.

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me_george_@reddit

I'm gonna answer some of your statements since I agree with some, but disagree with most.

The market it is indeed saturated, but there is definitely hope. Your degree is a good head start, but it isn't everything.
As a Junior Dev, this is true, unfortunately. Without prior work experience, getting a job is difficult.
No, as I said earlier, it's helpful to have a BSc, but experience matters more.
15 hours per week for 6 months is nothing. Be realistic.
Starting early is definitely helpful, but a career switch is also possible.
Of course, you need a high school diploma. This is true for most jobs, and it is the bare minimum. Stop being overly dramatic.
Network helps. If you don't have one, build one.

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Whatever801@reddit

Ya it's a give and take you know. I'm sure people who got into the coding thinking it was a get rich quick thing feel cheated. The whole youtube influencer factor certainly doesn't help, that's kinda new actually you didn't see that 5-10 years ago. I'll give you my disorganized observations of someone who got into the industry 8 years ago through a bootcamp and is now a hiring manager

The get-rich-quick era is predictably over. Whenever there's a soft spot in a market like that it doesn't last. That's capitalism baby. Other high paying industries, medicine, engineering, etc, people don't expect to self-study for a few months and be qualified. Was never gonna last.
It's still possible to transition to this career. The most successful career-transitioners are, and have always been, people where the universe lead them to coding. They were into legos, they loved messing around with computers, and whatever job they had, they ended up coding. Even when I got in, people who were just trying to make more money may have gotten a job but crashed out in less than a year. People are expecting to dick around with python for a few months and get a cushy 6 figure job. That has literally never been the reality. You have always had to be attractive to an employer this isn't a make a wish thing.
We are still correcting from covid. There was a phase that was pure insanity. I was doing like 3-4 interviews every day and we would offer more money to entry level people than the managers were making and they were rejecting us to make 30% more at facebook. Every startup was raising money at like 50-60X ARR. Once interest rates dropped and the VC tap dried up, valuations plummeted and companies realized the mistake. That's why you're still seeing layoffs at facebook despite record profits. Everyone super over-hired and are still paying low performers ludicrous salaries. They're still trimming the fat from that hiring frenzy. Startups in general are still struggling and will continue to struggle until the interest rates go down. The exception to that right right now is LLM companies but I think the writing is on the wall. The boomers don't quite realize that LLMs aren't what they think they are yet but everybody else does so that bubble really isn't long for this world. So yes, the market is hard. But it won't last forever. At the same time, it will probably never go back to how it was during the covid speculation feeding-frenzy. Ultimately software is, and always has been, the highest margin industry. I can 10X my customers for 1.1X the cost. That isn't true anywhere else. Therefore, software will continue to be attractive to investors.
The transition to work from home combined with budget cuts has moved a lot of hiring overseas. People will say this has happened before and it always transitions back, but if you ask me it's different this time. The quality of engineers in India, for example, has increased drastically even in the last 5 years. An increasing number of tech execs are also now Indian, so they know how to hire the right people, whereas previously in a lot of cases companies were getting scammed by consulting farms. Conversely, salaries in India are also skyrocketing. Still the rationale is: if I'm hiring remotely anyways, why would I pay 150k for someone in the US when I could pay 50k for someone in India? And that's a fair question to be perfectly honest. Take that for what you will.

My advice? Do sober introspection why you are getting into this field. If you don't have a particular interest in engineering and computers, look elsewhere. This field is no longer the feeding frenzy it was 3 years ago and I don't predict it will return to that. That said if you are genuinely drawn to coding and find yourself getting lost in it and just love it, stay the course. It will be harder for you than it was for me, but it's definitely still possible. Health care admin and software development continue to have the most open positions no matter what people say. The market will improve. Covid adjustment will finish, interest rates will go down, and the job market will normalize. I would not at this moment spend money on any course. There's plenty of free resources and job placement is too tenuous to quit your job and dive in head-first. Good luck!

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Chocolate-Atoms@reddit

I feel like I have a minor interest in programming and computers but have started to dislike programming recently.

I’m only really learning this as I have no idea what other path I would be interested in and just want to get a decent paying job.

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omgpassthebacon@reddit

Great response. I hope the op takes it to heart. It is a little depressing seeing how this career is being eaten up by AI, which honestly, is going to make a huge dent in the job pool. I don't think people realize that you have to be a really good programmer to build large-scales apps, even if you are using AI to do it. This puts dev w/ little experience at yet another disadvantage.

I love to code. I truly enjoy the process. AI really sucks the life out of it for me. But it is a giant mistake to ignore it and not learn to wield it on a project.

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AntiqueBread1337@reddit

Agree with all except part of 4. India engineer quality is still very poor, at least in my anecdotal experience. If you need cheap offshore work to do anything other than follow exact cookie cutter instructions, it isn’t going to happen.

Specifically to knowing the right people: when I was at a startup they had a sister company in India for years and were tapped into all the “right” pipelines and the resources were still rough. Not nearly as bad as my general experiences at other places but still. You were so much better off hiring a new grad from a decent school onshore.

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Whatever801@reddit

I feel like cheap is the operative word here. We used to use cheap Indian contractors and yes they sucked. But if you're hiring young people from IITs in tech hubs, Bangalore, etc, we've found the quality to be on par. You're gonna pay a lot more for them but they are top notch. I mean not everyone is good obviously, that's true on on shore too, but hit rate has been similar for us. I mean the "right channels" can mean different things to different people. A country of 1.4b obviously there are gonna be good engineers there right? Companies (at least in the past) have gotten into it trying to pay bottom dollar and yeah that's not gonna be good. You have to pay like 1/3 of US salary

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AntiqueBread1337@reddit

Cheap is relative I suppose. I meant compared to the US. We paid 1/3 to 1/2 of US salaries and I was still not impressed.

Though as you said, definitely hit or miss when doing any kind of hiring.

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sq00q@reddit

If they were contracted via one of those huge consulting firms, then most likely the developers themselves were getting a fraction of the pay (<~$600 if I'm being generous). The firms are popular in the west due to their sheer size and inertia, despite their poor quality.

I've seen this oft repeated notion here that most skilled devs from India immigrate outside the country, but this isn't true anymore. Many choose to stay back and work for product companies or some premium consulting firms who work with domestic clients.

Though this does lead to overabundance of complaints from westerners about the devs since their only exposure to them is the offshore ones paid pennies.

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JudeLaw69@reddit

This, 100%. I got into the industry during the feeding frenzy; I had never considered working in tech before the pandemic, but I’d spent a decade in the service industry and had kind of capped out salary-wise (at least for my city), and was still Poor all the time. I had a chance to do a bootcamp for free if I did a 6-month contract for a major healthcare-related company, and the restaurant I was working at closed for the lockdowns, so I thought “why not?”

Fast forward 3 years, and every single day it blows my mind that I would get a software development job in the first place. Don’t get me wrong, I’ve worked my ASS off and managed to make myself very useful on my team, but I never had a driving passion for it, and you could fill an ocean with basic concepts that I still don’t know. Many in my bootcamp cohort already had CS degrees, and most of them didn’t get converted to FTE after their contracts, and it makes me feel terrible seeing them struggle to find work.

Up until recently, I considered my job pretty recession-safe, but I’ve seen a lot of restructuring in my company, and very recently had some restructuring within my own team — no one was “laid off”, but certain contractors that were fairly senior/integral to the team were either moved to other teams or didn’t have their contract renewed.

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Iceclaw529@reddit

Love this response. Im a tad saddened by some stuff though, especially how it will be more difficult to land a job now. However, I started coding myself to switch from blue to white collar and have fallen in love with it. So at this point my attitude has been, I'll continue to learn and make projects for as long as it takes cuz Im enjoying the hell out of it. And I'm using my current job knowledge and combining it with coding to make apps and helpful projects for what I currently do! I gotta head back into those online classes tho, lol Im just building now and learning from there.

Even tho I am not OP, this post was very helpful! Thanks

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Ormek_II@reddit

You are doing the right thing. Domain knowledge is important. It helps you build what the customer needs. In the early phase you are your own customer. For you it might be your colleagues as well, the your company, then other companies.

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strawberryretreiver@reddit

Don’t sweat it brother, it is still possible. my friend self taught himself and got in recently! Just keep at it!

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shitty_mcfucklestick@reddit

Another possible path for you: - Your tinkering on the side related to your main industry leads to a useful product which you could start marketing or selling on the side to that industry (maybe even to your own employer.) Having industry-specific knowledge of what makes software work for a particular process or group can lead to innovations that have immediate measurable value to a company. Eg if your app saves a manager a couple hours a week manually tracking something, that is something you can sell and grow upon. What else could the app streamline or shortcut at your company? Etc.

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Iceclaw529@reddit

Yeah, this is the thought process. Make something I would find useful and would help me daily at my job. Then either sell it to companies or use it as part of my portfolio to help me get a new job.

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Whatever801@reddit

Happy to help! It definitely sounds like you're doing the right thing, keep at it! One thing to consider, and I know OP called this one as one of the negative responses people see on this thread, but there really are a lot of non-software engineer roles in tech companies that are still technical and pay really well and I don't think everyone knows about them. Some examples are: Customer Success Manager, Technical Success Manager, Product Consultant, Data Consultant, and Technical Support Specialist, Data Analyst (reqs a bit higher on this one), Revenue Operations Specialist.

Reason I bring this up is I have personally observed a number of people transition from these roles into Data Science and SWE roles. Dunno if this is possible at all companies but I speculate that it is. If you're working closely with SWE, make those intentions clear to your manager, and make the right relationships that path definitely exists.

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ampharos995@reddit

Thanks for all the insight. My best friend's parents were programmers so that put the career option on my radar since high school, I went through college noticing all the hype and high salaries even before influencers were a thing. As someone that loved STEM, I thought I could hedge my bets by going into a programming-heavy engineering field. But this job market is impossible, they don't want people like me. It is almost a relief that the bubble popped though, because while I don't mind coding, I'm not in love with it. I almost feel like I'm allowed to pursue other skills now.

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Whatever801@reddit

Yep I think that's probably a pretty good sign you should do something else. I don't know if this would be your cup of tea or not, but there's a role at a lot of B2B software companies that flies under the radar called "Sales Engineer". Sometimes it's also called "Sales Consultant". They're basically a person in the sales cycle that understands the technical details of the product and will chat with the other company's engineering, it, etc to help them feel comfortable that the solution is actually a good fit. Kind of a go between for sales and engineering. AEs build the relationship, take them out to dinner, talk about golf and taking the kids skiing, crap like that, but they don't actually know wtf the product does. The great thing about Sales Engineer is they're usually not quota carrying, but do generally get a cut of commission. Other sales roles are constantly worried about meeting quota for the quarter. Usually 2 missed quarters means you're out on your ass. When the grass is green AEs make a ton of money but as soon as the market turns (now for example) it's not a good situation. Anyways something to consider if you're a people person who is technically minded.

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ampharos995@reddit

Thanks for the tip. I am considering something more communication focused away from the desk. I love tech, and have engineering training, but in school I always did better at reading and writing than math. Feel like that's catching up to me now.

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Whatever801@reddit

Awesome! Great to recognize that about yourself before you get too deep into something you'll be miserable doing. Wish you the best of luck 🤞

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ampharos995@reddit

Do you know if the sales roles also require leetcode prep?

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Whatever801@reddit

No not at all they're not writing code

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Zagden@reddit

In my case, vocational rehab pointed me to IT for my circumstances and limitations related to trying to transition out of disability. My family has been engineers three generations back and is passing on the knowledge to me when I ask.

My interests are creative writing, meteorology, game dev and history / other humanities. So absolutely nothing the market values right now. But 9 weeks into learning java I'm finding it weirdly a similar feeling to creative writing. Sentence and paragraph structure have flows that create emotional responses. You have to write something then sit back and follow the flow. If it doesn't work right, or it's inefficient, you go back and tinker with it. I love doing that and so far tinkering with baby projects like nested do-while loops and optimizing for loops is fun. I hope that carries me through. I can see myself fucking around in Java and Python for fun as a hobby, or making toys and passion projects.

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Whatever801@reddit

I was also more drawn to humanities than STEM in high school and college and completely agree. Writing code is very creative and the structure and elegance has a lot of crossover with writing.

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ampharos995@reddit

The thing is I'd rather be drawing. I feel like I'm wasting my talents. All I care about this point is putting in my time and having enough energy after work to do my hobbies and/or retiring early. A job like sales seems like it meets that goal easier than spending my creativity all day on something boring. (Also why I wouldn't do an art job like graphic design or architecture.)

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pretendmudd@reddit

I'm also developing my programming skills while switching to a career that can accommodate my disabilities better.

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rizzo891@reddit

My main problem with it is.

Coding is something I am good at. I am also very good at googling which is primarily what coding is.

However I am super not competitive to a fault as a person I just don’t have the energy.

Then jobs require me to get a bachelors degree for an entry level job to say “I can stare at a computer screen good”

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Whatever801@reddit

One tidbit of advice I have for you is don't put much stock into what's listed in the job requirements. In the software field it's pretty loose and more there to deter complete yokels from applying than a hard and fast requirement. That's not to say every job will ignore them but at least in my world (SV) that's definitely the case. Like if it's a senior role than yea obviously you're not a senior eng but for entry level don't let that hold you back.

That said you are gonna have to play the game if you wanna get a job which means grinding leetcode and practicing interview skills. No way around it. We all know it's dumb and we all know there are false negatives but yea that's just how it is unfortunately. You're gonna have to send out a hell of a lot of resumes to get a bite. Thousands not hundreds. And you really need to be able to nail those interviews when you get them. You're probably gonna bomb one of two as well and it's gonna feel like shit, I certainly did. Rite of passage. Absolute best case scenario is if you have a referral from someone in your network. You still have to do well on the interview but that can get your foot in the door. Good luck!

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aleximoso@reddit

I have to say, your responses are incredibly helpful in a sea of otherwise quite unhelpful responses elsewhere on this and other subreddits whenever new/prospective learners ask about realistic career paths or the likelihood of their efforts leading to future employment. It can already be such a challenge to be self motivated without clear direction, particularly for those self learning as part of an effort to change career as is the case for me. For that, I just want to say a huge thank you to you! One day, I hope to be in a position to pay it forward myself!

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Whatever801@reddit

Hey thanks I appreciate you saying that!

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rizzo891@reddit

Interviews are something that terrify me as an entry level and you are absolutely right I need to be better at them. I’ve had maybe a handful and I’ve found myself just kind of floundering even though I should know the information they’re asking.

Thanks for the advice though! It is helpful

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moonlight_dreams_@reddit

Like people have the choice to pursue their interest

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Whatever801@reddit

I wasn't trying to tell you to follow your dreams. We're talking about transitioning to a competitive and highly technical career while completely bypassing the traditional qualifications and education path. If you don't love to code your chance of forcing yourself to learn enough coding to get to where you need to be proficiency-wise is pretty low. To your point, plenty of people get into it for the money, but they are usually forced by their parents to get CS degrees and look to transition to different tech roles after a couple of years.

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wiriux@reddit

My advice? Do sober introspection why you are getting into this field.

It would have been so funny if you had said:

My advice? Get a CS degree Lol

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HolyPommeDeTerre@reddit

Dude you summed it up pretty well on the point I wanted to make on 1 and 2. Good job !

Over the last 15 years of working in CS, I got to meet a huge range of devs. Most of the ones that got into CS for anything else than interest (shiny, money, career...) have left to go into design, PM, management... For the ones that push forward, burnout is a real issue.

Be pragmatical. Life has never been easy. Nature made it hard. When the offer is too good to be true, there is something off. Or it won't last and it's more of a luck thing that you can't rely on for the long term. (Some are trying but it's kinda stressful, stress kills).

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Putnam3145@reddit

You got no CS degree? Don't even try buddy. Doesn't matter how much self taught you are and how good your portfolio looks.

What, you expect me to lie to people about this? My portfolio has never once mattered even in the slightest, my lack of a degree prevented me from getting to the point where anyone even looked at it. I have a job now for reasons entirely unrelated to anyone seeing my portfolio.

You need to start early. The best age to start with is 4. Skip kindergarten and climb that ranking on leetcode.

Nobody has ever responded to "I'm [X age], am I too old?" with anything but "no, you are not too old" on this subreddit I've seen, because to say "yes, you are too old" is also a lie, so I don't know where this comes from.

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JohnnyboyKCB@reddit

I agree! This post seems overly optimistic with the state of the current job market. People with great degrees and experience are not landing jobs.

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Puzzled-Performer947@reddit

OP, you seem to be from Germany. You have to realise that Reddit is an American site and most of the users are Americans. They don't even have eggs.

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Master-Guidance-2409@reddit

i learned programming by buying a "teach yourself c in 24 hours" from borders bookshop and reading random tutorials i found on forums circa 2004,

we had no internet at home and i would copy the "tutorials" from the forum posts onto notepad and floppies and go home and torture myself trying to "make it" work and try to learn, there was no teachers and no one i could ask for help, since i didnt have email to make a forum account (i didnt know how to use anything online at the time).

all this on a shitty pentium 486 i got begging from a computer repair company which they were going to trash. i dual booted pirated win95 and some debian linux distro;

everything took fucking days or weeks cause i would have to go to school and use the shared computers in the library to copy everything over multiple floppies go home and rejoin the archives and install it that way.

we were broke and 90% of my floppies were picked from the trash that people would throw away cause they would jam the fuck out the metal part and bend it, but if you were careful you could fix it and the disk was intact.

i never got to go to college cause i couldnt afford it but everything i learn change my life and made me very well off years later.

everytime i see one of these pussy ass bitches moan about programming and its "current state" i realize they are just not cut out for it and even given every advantage will still find some shit to bitch about. they just dont have any grit.

i was determined to make games and nothing was going to stop me from achieving my goals, if you don't have that drive in you stop wasting your time.

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borrowedurmumsvcard@reddit

Yeah it’s really depressing. I just changed my major to web development at 23 y/o & I finally feel like I found my calling, just to come on here and get my dreams smashed to dirt. Not gonna stop me though 🫡

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AntaresHeart@reddit

Huh, and here I was just reading the things that were helpful or interesting to me… can’t say I care or notice about what anyone else believes can or can’t be achieved… only care what technologies do, interesting facts about languages, and people giving their experiences in the real world. Opinions are cool and all but, in my opinion they’re a little bit useless unless highly specific and given by someone who is fully aware of a scenario… which is none of the circumstances outlined in this posts. I let all of these things fly right over my head and have no affect on my motivation

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notislant@reddit

This needs to be pinned. It really answers like 50% of questions. Just need an ai section to answer the other 49.9%.

Everyone gets bombarded by influencer nonsense or even people who got hired 5-10 years ago with minimal knowledge and no degree. Its just not happening these days.

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jabuchae@reddit

To be fair, the sub is LEARN programming not “land a job people study full time for five years for in just 6 months”

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ar_ray01@reddit

"Really captures the essence and unique vibe of this sub. Great summary!"

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mcAlt009@reddit

Okay, from a somewhat experienced self-taught programmer point of view.

This is what half of you sound like: "Hi, I decided I deserve to make at least 300K a year and I want to do this fully remote, can I take a 8-week class to make this happen. Also do you know any places where I can take this class for free. No moving to a city is not an option, no I will not use Java, Zig only.

Also I absolutely hate computers and I refuse to do any self learning, if it's not in the class I'm not doing it. Now why is this so hard, I downloaded vs code yesterday and no one has hired me yet!"

Even to come back to reality, this is the worst attack economy in at least a decade, experience software engineers aren't finding work. It's just not a good time

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strawberryretreiver@reddit

Perfect so by the time I have trained myself to be a wizard in machine learning and data scientist the market will be ripe for the plucking :).

There is always a reason to keep on learning if you love to do it!

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Princedynasty@reddit

Its actually crazy to me that people who hate computers want to work in IT. I'm just an IT project manager but I'm learning to code so it opens me up for more PM positions (some want you to know how to code also). I love computers, I built my own and I have a degree in computer technology (took several coding classes). I couldn't imagine doing something for 40 hrs a week that I legit hate.

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istarian@reddit

They want to get a job that pays well but doesn't have an impossibly high bar to entry...

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pebble-prophet@reddit

A person will definitely need to start from low paying jobs if they even manage to get a job through whatever means and reaching a good income will take lots of hardwork and luck and experience.

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MoonQube@reddit

if it was only allowed to ask actual programming-related questions... maybe this would be a better place?

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Hari___Seldon@reddit

This is a big one, and yes I think it's the key. This isn't r/CSmajors and it's not a job board. It's for people to learn to code. Until the mods decide that it's worth cracking down on the lifestyle questions, I doubt things will stop sliding downhill.

Even when someone does ask a great question, it's just lost in the tidal wave of misplaced posts. None of us want it to be StackOverflow's Reddit cousin but we've got to draw a line somewhere.

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Ok_Parsley9031@reddit

You might not like those takes or you might find them depressing but it doesn’t change the fact that most of them are true.

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Neat-Ad-8747@reddit

Been looking for almost a year and a half now. Starting to feel like a massive waste of time and money getting my degree.

I've had one interview after sending out my resume to God knows how many places. Maybe I should've gone into plumbing 🤷

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AimlessDiabetic@reddit

I want to share!

I have a degree in theater education... like a high school theater teacher but I realized far too far into my degree that I'm kind of an introvert. I scrambled around for years with different things. After reading about how you could learn to code in just a few months, I decided to start with Free Code Camp. I went through the first few HTML lessons and knew immediately I'd found my thing. That was late 2018.

At the beginning of 2020, I got my first ever tech job with a startup in my area. I made less in that job than I did managing a KFC and I did very little coding. I learned WordPress and tried to understand Ruby on Rails. It was so very not what I was expecting. It was a lifeline in that crazy year, though.

I started looking for other developer jobs in 2021 and couldn't get anything for awhile. Finally, and miraculously honestly, I was offered a position managing a student app for a trade school. It was not much different than WordPress and it was a bummer to move sideways, but I was grateful for the shift as things had been devolving at the startup.

After some time at the school, I started asking about the back end language they used. I made friends with the developers and made my interest known. I worked on tech projects and used my knowledge to keep making improvements. I talked about it with everyone and eventually an awesome developer took me under her wing and I gobbled up C# like I was starving.

I was offered a software developer position LAST WEEK and I finally, FINALLY get to code every day. To say I'm excited is an understatement.

All this to say... if coding has fallen into your path, try it. I love my career. I can't wait to keep learning for the rest of my career. But it took me 6 years and a lot of self-starting energy to get to this point. There have been so many technical off-shoot careers I could have pursued along the way. If this had turned out like my theater degree and I'd realized too late it wasn't for me, that would have been okay because there were other options.

A career change or career growth isn't a small undertaking. Find what you don't want to quit. Then do what you have to do (jobs that may be less than you want) until you get to your thing.

[-]

Cybasura@reddit

What do you want us to say, that "vibe coding" is a god tier skillset and bow down to people who arent willing to put in the effort much like the rest of us, but seek to gain the reward anyways?

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Xenos865D@reddit

I dropped out of high school, have a tattoo on my face, and 5 felonies. Will someone hire me to be a programmer?

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siasl_kopika@reddit

if you do good on the coding quiz, wear concealer makeup for the video meeting to hide the tat, and dont apply to places that run background checks... yes, not a problem.

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Just_to_rebut@reddit

I actually think this sub is generally much more optimistic, friendly, and patient than the other big cs subs…

There’s usually a inspirational success story every couple weeks and somehow people don’t get tired of responding to some of the same old questions over and over.

That might sound bad, but it keeps the recommendations up to date and usually spurs a bit of tangential but interesting discussion.

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carrotLadRises@reddit

My difficulty is that I feel like I will never be qualified enough to be competitive for junior level roles. I don't even need to make 6 figures right off the bat- just something where I can actually spend most of myself doing developer work. I do AI training to make money in the meantime and it is really hard to make time to develop my skillset to get better after working full time every week. I started my programming journey like 7 years ago and have little to show for it. It's depressing and there is no other career I can think of that would be similarly stimulating and pay decently. I do some coding when I have a little time for a volunteer organization where I have had a few PRs approved to be integrated in to the codebase but it is slow going. It feels like an impossible puzzle to get a good job in this or any market. (Add ADHD and depression on to the pile for an extra bonus).

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Sea-Advertising3118@reddit

I would love to see more posts about people's code and applications that they make. What i love about programming is being able to make my own applications that i actually use. So many forums, this one included, just have the same copy pasted questions/remarks over and over again. This sub could be a lot more.

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programmer_farts@reddit

We hire so many shitty "senior" developers where I work that it's hard to take posts on this sub seriously. you know who you are.

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ToxicPilot@reddit

Why you gotta call me out like that

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MoonQube@reddit

Senior developer is a made up title

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tomasartuso@reddit

This post is both painfully funny and painfully real. Honestly, I’ve felt the same way reading some threads here—like if you didn’t start coding in the womb with a parent at Google, you're already too late.

But here’s the thing: the loudest voices online are usually the most extreme. The truth is, there are thousands of developers out there without CS degrees, who started late, who didn’t check every box, and still made it. They just don’t post as much because they’re busy building stuff or working.

It’s good to acknowledge the reality: the market is tough, and no path is guaranteed. But you can still make it by being consistent, learning deeply (not just tutorials), building real projects, and applying strategically. I’ve seen people break in from non-tech backgrounds with persistence and creativity. It’s slower, but it happens.

This sub would be a lot better if we had more real, honest encouragement like this post (even if it’s a little spicy). Appreciate you putting it out there.

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Flimsy-Tangerine1283@reddit

As someone trying to learn I seriously considering blocking this sub because more often than not it's incredibly demoralising.

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am7ine@reddit

Good hands-on learning references please?

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MathmoKiwi@reddit

.

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Bahaadur73@reddit (OP)

https://www.boot.dev/

https://www.freecodecamp.org/learn/

https://fullstackopen.com

https://roadmap.sh/

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CoreDreamStudiosLLC@reddit

If only I could afford boot.dev, hate being physically disabled and on SSI. :(

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quasarblues@reddit

Cross post this in r/cscareerquestions please

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Green-Jicama-8406@reddit

Off topic and random AF - but man I always read this subreddit as cs-scarer-questions

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v0gue_@reddit

Hot take, but if you can believe it, this sub has gotten so much better about being questions more related to programming rather than career focused since the bottom fell out for the bootcamp-junior era

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MathmoKiwi@reddit

Less people looking to get rich quick, more people looking genuinely to learn programming

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Sniface@reddit

While what you say is true, it IS rough out there. And with all the layoffs every new dev is competing against people with degrees AND job experience.

Some may say it in a blunt way, but it is the reality.

The days of doing a 2 month boot camp and then getting a job is gone.

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dlo416@reddit

Not true...lol. The hiring ratio has gone down by a wide margin but to say it's gone would be completely incorrect.

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rizzo891@reddit

Idk, I’ve put in 25 applications a day for the last 3 years where I’ve catered my resume and cover letter to that specific companies desires and I have received exactly one call back from a company that turned out I would rather not work for

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Savassassin@reddit

Probably because you never graduated from college and is instead a bootcamp graduate. I suggest you go back to school to finish your degree

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HirsuteHacker@reddit

Lol. I'm a boot amp grad (though mine was 1p months rather than 2 or 3). I had no problem whatsoever finding a dev job, tech leads even told me I was the best junior they ever hired. You really don't need a degree - it's good to have for sure, but not a necessity.

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Savassassin@reddit

You’re the exception not the norm tho

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rizzo891@reddit

Why? School is not necessary it only would put me in debt lol, and in fact when I was in college I wasn’t learning anything that would actually help me get a job anywhere lol

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Savassassin@reddit

Most job postings require you to have a bachelor in CS so I’m just saying one of the reasons you’re not hearing back because you’re screened out by AI/HR for not having a degree. It has nothing to do with how useful your degree is

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rizzo891@reddit

I understand what you’re saying but also that’s part of the problem with the job market in my opinion. An entry level coding job shouldn’t require a bachelors degree. Hell any coding job shouldn’t require a bachelors degree it’s not a bachelors degree worthy job field.

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dlo416@reddit

I know lots of bootcamp graduates who have been able to get jobs and beat out CS grads. The fact that they're not getting hired is false. It's the fact that they expect to be treated exactly the same and thinking that they're going to have the same level of education as a CS student which is the false pretense that bootcamps are giving people. Like I said before, Bootcamps are only good if you know that you're only scratching the surface and the rest is up to you. If you think that you're gonna get a job with just the material that is being taught, then you're going in with the wrong mindset.

Again the cards are still stacked against them, but the chance of them being unhireable is simply untrue.

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rizzo891@reddit

I don’t think it’s that necessarily it’s that we’re unhirable, I think it’s a combination of businesses are currently cutting jobs across the board largely, plus you have an influx of people who view coding as just an easy route to money (some bootcampers fall into this camp and some self taught and some of every kind of programmer I guess) and then a lot of jobs use ai to weed out any resumes that don’t have specific keywords.

It’s a very competitive market and some people, including myself, just don’t have the energy to compete in that market despite it being really the only thing I’m good at lol

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dlo416@reddit

LOL the irony of these down votes is absolutely hilarious and proving the OP right. Bring it on haters.

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dlo416@reddit

LOL the irony of these down votes is absolutely hilarious and proving the OP right. Bring it on haters.

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logicthreader@reddit

you’re not getting a software engineering job unless you’re from a highly ranked cs school. the market has changed, you can complain but that doesn’t change reality

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miyakohouou@reddit

I have a software engineering job, and I do not have a degree from a highly ranked CS school. I've been interviewing people and hiring, and I honestly couldn't tell you if any of the people I've interviewed have a CS degree or not, let alone where their degree is from.

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logicthreader@reddit

Also it depends on where you work. The competitive companies will literally just auto reject ppl from schools that are not highly ranked

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ButtDoctor69420@reddit

Work at a non-competitive company. Be one of the shitty devs at the low end of the bell curve.

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logicthreader@reddit

I’m okay thanks 😂

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ChemistryNo3075@reddit

You can literally play video games all day, respond to emails, and do like 4 hrs of work a week.

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miyakohouou@reddit

This just rings as patently untrue to me.

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logicthreader@reddit

I can understand why you’d feel like that, having 20 YOE and all, but ppl applying to the competitive companies like FAANG without high ranked CS schools on their resume are literally getting auto rejected. Like this is actually happening. The market is saturated as hell, why would anyone give a chance to someone from a normal state school when they have MANY applicants from T20s? It sucks but it’s the truth

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logicthreader@reddit

How many YOE do you have? The market is not the same as it once was lmfao

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miyakohouou@reddit

Yes, I have about 20 YoE, and my experience experience of the market is different to someone who has 0, 5, or 10 YoE. Similarly, the experience of someone trying to break into the market today is different than it was when I was getting into the market.

That said, when people say things like "you can't get a programming job without a CS degree" that's still patently false- I don't have a CS degree, and I have gotten jobs and expect I will continue to get jobs. Not everyone in the industry is looking for their first job, and of course it's not impossible to get a first development job without a CS degree, even though the CS degree is certainly the easiest path.

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logicthreader@reddit

Dude your opinion literally doesn’t matter if you have 20 YOE. You are not in the same shoes as everyone else trying to break into this industry

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miyakohouou@reddit

My point is that it's important to give people the full picture. Yes, for someone who is trying to get into the industry it's important for them to recognize that it's going to be a lot easier with a degree. It would be completely disingenuous to claim otherwise.

At the same time, it's incredibly valuable for someone to understand that a degree is most useful during the first few years of your career, and matters less as you gain experience. That's going to have a big impact on how people think about their overall career arc, especially people who are established in an adjacent industry and looking to shift into development, and even more especially for people who might have an opportunity to get into a job without a degree (because it does still happen).

Consider the hypothetical example of someone with an engineering or math degree who has been working in a role that involves writing code as part of their non software-engineering job. They come here to improve their development skills to move into a full time development role. A person in that situation could very likely find themselves with a choice between an internal move into a developer role or stopping work to pursue a second BS or a MSCS degree. The "common wisdom" that you basically can't ever get a job without a CS degree that people throw around here could easily push someone to turn down that internal role and spend a couple of years and a lot of money on a degree, when realistically getting the hands on experience would have probably been a far better move for them.

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csabinho@reddit

You forgot "Is [programming language] worth it in [current year]?" and "Should I learn programming at the age of [current age > 30]?".

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muskoke@reddit

I remember on r/c_programming someone asked "Should I even learn C? Python just seems to be huge right now." We told him that yes, the world uses more than 1 programming language. His ultimate conclusion: to stick with python, but look into C if it was still big 5 years later.

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killersteak@reddit

His ultimate conclusion

he sounds like one hell of a programmer with logic like that.

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csabinho@reddit

if it was still big 5 years later.

"The language that replaces C" is like "the year of the Linux desktop" or "the death of desktop computers"... :D

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TomWithTime@reddit

the year of the Linux desktop

It is for me! I've been pleasantly surprised at how bug free and performant gaming on manjaro has been. With all the complaining online I didn't expect monster hunter and assassins creed to be flawless. We might even get the next major desktop version of SteamOS this year 👀

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csabinho@reddit

"The year of the Linux desktop" is about a reasonable market share for Linux. Not about individuals.

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TomWithTime@reddit

Understood, Linux is at 4.4% in the market because of the steam deck but that isn't normal desktop use and I'm guessing the market share for that meme is at least double digits. Still a little progress :) a tardigrade's footstep forward!

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danintexas@reddit

I gave up wanting to be a developer in my 20s cause I thought I was too old and stupid.

When I stopped listening to others I got off my ass and just did what I had to do. Got my degree at 47 and I am now near 50 and working remote as a sr developer.

End of the day you want to do something then do it. Ignore the haters. No matter what it is you are thinking about doing unless you are dead it is not too late.

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arkvesper@reddit

genuinely appreciate these comments. i'm a laid off 31yo dev who is having a hard time getting callbacks rn, and its hard not to feel despondent with all the hard realistic talk about the current market that i'm constantly scrolling through. it's always nice hearing about people older than me that've 'made it'

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AaronMichael726@reddit

Pin this as a required post to read before users post

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MoonQube@reddit

Why not just only allow posts about actual code?

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AaronMichael726@reddit

Require a certain leet code score before you can post.

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AceLamina@reddit

I barely use this sub but I do find r/csMajors a lot worse

At least they don't spam "quit your major" as soon as Devin AI released (we all know how that turned out) and being racist towards Indians back to 2023 due to them getting a lot more SWE jobs at the time

To me, it's just a reminder to just listen to the actual professionals only and do my own research with that knowledge, sure, I don't know everything, but it's better than being depressed on reddit

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ballinb0ss@reddit

It is now. 2019 it wasn't. History happened before you began paying attention.

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Toast4003@reddit

Meh it's still easy money for now, but the weird thing about programming is that one guy really can be 10,000x more productive than some other guy. But that's never true of a plumber or a woodworker short of owning a business or factory. That's because programming can be its own means of production. You can program your programming to program. Even before AI that was true (AI is just an example of it).

So in this huge range of developer productivity, as the bar gets raised higher, it is getting exponentially higher. The expectations start to feel impossible, because they are infeasible for most people.

But this is all career-related. Professional expectations. Anyone can code if they want to. Go have fun. Just don't cry that you can't get a salary in the top 1%.

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WickedProblems@reddit

You can be a BootCamp dev, have a degree, have relevant YOE and still not find a job.

That's just the reality. Do what you want, but know if your goal is only to make money? It's significantly a lot harder now.

The advice I see most often is? If you like CS, programming, and developing software? Sure, stick with it, but if you're just here with the hope of getting a high-paying job? It might be a lot harder now for you to see results after the time invested.

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tms102@reddit

So what would you suggest would be a better approach while keeping the reality of today's situation in mind? Are you saying it is actually not difficult to get hired without experience and degrees?

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Swag_Grenade@reddit

Idk, maybe this is an unpopular opinion but IMO OPs post just kinda seems like a rant about how people in here are simply pointing out the harsh realities that the "go to a 2 month bootcamp/teach yourself coding with no prior experience and get a cushy job in tech!" era is dead. Idk to me it kinda sounds like OP just wants to hear that there's still easily accessible paths to shortcut your way into a dev job, when there's really just not anymore. Basically truth can hurt sometimes and it kinda sounds like OP doesn't wanna hear the truth.

Again maybe this will be another unpopular opinion in this sub but I was always amused about how once the bootcamp/self-taught to career pipeline bubble started, people just assumed that's how it should be and will always be. What other high skill career, especially in STEM, would you expect to be hired with no prior experience and just a "bootcamp" or period of self-teaching and a portfolio? Would you really be itching to hire an engineer, microbiologist, physicist, mathmatician, statistician who's only experience consisted of a "bootcamp" and a year or two of self-learning? All this to say it was never gonna last.

Not to be too pessimistic, because I do think (hope) that once the dust settles the market will be in healthier state. But as of now it's still reeling because of a multitude of factors, not the least of which were probably over hiring, covid, and oversaturation due to the glut of (again maybe unpopular take) probably underqualified applicants who flocked to the "teach yourself coding and get rich!" gold rush.

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miyakohouou@reddit

I think it's entirely reasonable to let people know that a CS degree is by far the easiest way to break into the field. When the market is tight, companies don't need to take as much risk when hiring, so they look for signals that someone is going to be able to do the job. For someone new to the industry, there aren't a lot of signals to go on.

I see a lot of people in this subreddit go further than that. I've regularly seen claims that people simply can't or won't get hired without a CS degree from a top school no matter what level of experience they have, or that people without a CS degree are at a severe disadvantage no matter their experience. That view seems to mostly come from people without real experience in the industry.

The reality is that a degree is a huge advantage for getting into the industry, but after some years of experience it matters significantly less and very few employers will filter on it for senior+ engineers.

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Swag_Grenade@reddit

Yeah I agree with everything you said. I was just more commenting about how from a lot of the comments/posts I've seen in here it seems like people have almost come to expect that CS by default is a field where you shouldn't need a degree and a bootcamp/self learning period plus portfolio should be enough to eventually guarantee you an entry level job, and that's how it should be and the degree is just some useless arbitrary gatekeeping method lol. When in reality it was really just a bubble and like you said it depends on the saturation of the market how much risk hirers wanna take. Of course a CS degree doesn't guarantee you're a good candidate but it's a proof of concept of sorts of a minimum baseline competency, like it is in any other field. To rehash what I said basically my observation boils down to

seems kind of...entitled. IMO, you can't just expect to always be able to shortcut your way into a high skill white collar career. Because at the end of the day that's what it is, regardless of how influencers and bootcamp operators tried to spin it as some easily accessible cash cow job that anyone and everyone can get with just a little work and dedication.

Full disclosure I am going to school so I admit the possibility of some bias. But I do sense a sort of anti-degree sentiment in this sub from time to time, like anyone who wants to should be able to break into the industry so long as they completed the Odin Project with a small portfolio to show. Which like I mentioned before would sound insane in any other STEM industries, that you should expect to break into a field with no prior experience just through some free online tutorials/courses and a couple personal projects. I think some people ate the IMO oversimplified "learn to code, make money!" gravy train too much and became too comfortable in the assumption that this was inherently something that would eventually lead to a guaranteed career with relative ease through a little motivation and self learning.

Funnily enough I actually switched from computer science to engineering because of this current market squeeze, in the hopes that learning some circuits/embedded stuff/electronics/DSP/VLSI/FPGA/etc. along with all the usual CS topics will broaden my job options beyond just pure high level software dev roles, which are what seem to be in shorter supply right now and the skills for which are what most modern CS programs seem to teach/their grads seem to be equipped for.

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tms102@reddit

I agree with your sentiment. I also feel like it is best to be realistic or even harsh. So people without true drive and motivation are spared wasting time on a path they're not likely to succeed in.

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Swag_Grenade@reddit

Yeah. Full disclosure, I'm currently in school for computer engineering so I'll admit the possibility of some bias. But I always found it curious that ever since the self-taught/boot camp bubble started, for some reason everyone just ran with the assumption that software dev/programming was for whatever reason the single exception among all the other skilled white collar jobs (and more specifically STEM) where not only can you shortcut your way in with zero prior experience, no degree and relatively minimal preparation/training, but that's how it should be, and people started to expect to eventually be hired with those relatively easily attainable credentials. Like somehow it's both a cushy, sought after, high skilled lucrative career, but also an everyman job that anyone can get with a little motivation.

Unfortunately I fully expect to have a challenging job search after I graduate, especially since I'm older since I went back to school later. So the fact that some folks are bemoaning that they can't find a job with what would be considered bare minimum qualifications, if not disqualifying lack of qualifications in any other field, is weird to me. Idk like you alluded to it seems the "learn to code, make bank" bubble really did attract a lot of folks who convinced themselves this was some strange unicorn of a field where it's high-skilled and competitive, but also somehow simultaneously a place where you're guaranteed to launch a career as just as long as you put in a little effort 🤷.

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Plastic-Necessary680@reddit

Lots of college grads coping with their massive piles of debt for sure

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Creepy_Version_6779@reddit

I just enjoy doing it

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Absnerdity@reddit

I'm just here to learn programming for fun. I wanna make stuff for me.

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WystanH@reddit

Thank you! The best programmers are people who enjoy it. You have to, because it can be exceptionally frustrating at times.

Reading all the "omg, I just want money" is the most demotivating thing to read for me.

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mixreality@reddit

The get rich quick people don't understand expertise comes from time in the seat, reading documentation, reasoning, applying it and debugging.

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moonlight_dreams_@reddit

So accurate. This sub is very demotivating.

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Double_A_92@reddit

Reality is often... demotivating.

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moonlight_dreams_@reddit

Indeed

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CoreDreamStudiosLLC@reddit

Sounds like various Linux discords and subreddits too.

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xian0@reddit

There was a time when posters were assumed to be high effort people, often they would say what books they've already read etc. It was a novelty the first time someone self-taught got a job by doing leetcode and spamming their CV to 300+ places. Now everyone assumes the poster is very low effort and wants to make a career switch by spending an hour or two in the evenings.

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AlSweigart@reddit

Your summary is is uncharitable and a spit in the face of the many people in this sub who volunteer their free time to help people.

What's more, it's inaccurate. Oh, I'm sure you could bring up one or two instances, but your post is an example of how 99 people can be helpful and positive but it's the 1 person we have a negative experience with that we remember.

For real though. This sub has become quite depressing

No, here's what's for real: I'm sorry if you had a bad experience at some point, but it's not fair or mature for you to dump all over this sub because you want to take your frustration out on other people.

Your post says a lot more about you than it does about this sub.

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Jim_84@reddit

Probably why it's called "learn programming", not "career advice".

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Jim_84@reddit

Probably why it's called "learn programming", not "career advice".

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clnsdabst@reddit

i have the complete opposite experience here. its im 40 years old, hate math and have quit every job ive ever had, can i make 100k immediately by coding?

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PoMoAnachro@reddit

This sub has become quite depressing for people who are fed up with their current job/lifestyle and those who want to make a more comfortable living because of personal/health issues.

Do you have the same opinion of other subs for people going into professional fields like r/NursingStudent, r/EngineeringStudents, or r/AccountingStudentHelp for instance? Do you find the requirements of becoming an engineer, nurse, or accountant equally depressing? Why would a sub for folks wanting to learn programming be any different?

I think a lot of the problem comes down to software development, in the long run and ignoring bubbles, either has to be a highly skilled profession you need to put in some years to be hireable, OR it can be an easy profession anyone can do but you get paid peanuts.

Experiences devs obviously are hoping it remains a highly paid profession! But maybe it will end up being so easy anyone can do it, in which case wages will drop to call center levels.

There exist no jobs that are all three of easy to get into, well paying, and don't break your mind/body to do. You get at most two of them, and often none.

I do agree sometimes people go over the top in overstating how hard to get into it is. A 4 year CS degree and an internship or some decent side projects should be enough for anyone. But I think asking for less than that (exceptional individuals aside) is just saying "I don't think software development takes much learning to do and therefore it shouldn't get paid very well" and, well, of course experienced devs will object to that.

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SgathTriallair@reddit

Here is the real solution.

Coding has the special power to allow you to build things that impact the real world. So if a company won't hire you to build things, grab some friends and start your own company with things you build.

Yes you likely need to work a regular job while you do the building but lots of people have been able to build some software and use that to launch a company.

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C_cL22@reddit

All of it is just gatekeeping to keep salaries high for a few ppl, this is why I ignore this sub.

[-]

dlo416@reddit

There are enough people here to talking about work that also sound talented enough that you could start your own agency if you're FE lololol

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Nomsfud@reddit

You got no CS degree? Don't even try buddy. Doesn't matter how much self taught you are and how good your portfolio looks

Tell that to my 6 figure job I got being self taught

No one wants to hire junior devs

This one I feel lmao I was a senior dev, I had built my own stack, had a lot of home baked software that was running and I was doing it all. Then I left for a company where I am in fact a junior here. People take seniors and make them juniors again.

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Chexxorz@reddit

While I see some truths I would like to chip in that there are different demands in different areas of the world. Not everything is FAANG, Silicon Valley or SF. Personally landed my job before graduating my Bch and my perspective is that there's a high demand for example in Norway.

So if I was purely being subjective I would have said that the post doesn't reflect my perceived reality at all.

But I'm aware that this is what if feels like many other places, and I guess specially in the US.

Bonus points for some of the funny reflections of the sub though 😂

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Brilla-Bose@reddit

ha

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rustyseapants@reddit

You forgot: Where can I learn [Fill in the blank] for free and still land a high paying job?

[-]

etm1109@reddit

Wait until you run into recruiters who are about as technical as your dog on acid with an attitude.

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5LMGVGOTY@reddit

Got a job fresh out of high school, but only thanks to vitamin b

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ixe109@reddit

I used to hate how difficult it is to post in other subs and why they have so many rules and taboo topics and for the first time, I get it now

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learncomputeracademy@reddit

Hey, I feel you—this sub can be a total downer sometimes. I don’t have a CS degree either and I’m not trying to be the next tech billionaire. Thing is, the market’s not just some locked door. There’s still room for creative folks with new ideas, degree or not. Don’t let the doomscrolling get to you!