Kaman "Roto-Chute" prototypes designed for dropping supplies from fast aircraft in the 1950s
Posted by jacksmachiningreveng@reddit | WeirdWings | View on Reddit | 71 comments

metarinka@reddit
I had a startup that resurrected this technology. With a modern flight controllers you're essentially an unpowered helicopter in auto rotation. The benefit is you can flare and land at 0 vertical speed. You get about 5-20 seconds depending on how you desogn the blades. Since your optimizing for auto rotation not efficient flight.
They work really well, but are difficult to scale with cost and if one hits you, you die. I still have prototypes in my office.
Schmantikor@reddit
How realistic do you think it would be to use this technology to precision-land capsules from space? Could such rotors be deployed at re-entry velocity and/or could they slow the descent in time before they hit the ground? Did I even understand correctly that these are steerable?
The droge chutes on the Apollo capsule deployed at about 22.500 ft and 243 mph and the main parachutes at 10.000 ft and 124mph.
Would it still work if only the rotor is spinning, and if not, could a crew survive the spin?
I don't mean realistic as in "possible today or in the near future", I mean more in the realm of "realistic and grounded sci fi".
metarinka@reddit
Not only is it realistic it was studied heavily, we could launch from 15K AGL and land within about 10 meters regardless of wind. Kaman corp and us gov did research including rotor deployment above mach 1. I can't find the full report but here's a paper on it.
The benefit was you could land over land and have a controlled descent and very soft touch down. It also was a single stage system so you could use it to slow from multi-mach to sub mach and then ride it all the way down to touch down with 1 system.
The downside is you have 1 chance to deploy it and it has a slight mass and volume penalty over parachutes. They also can lead to gyroscopic precision as the frictional and inertia of the blades spinning up want to make the parent craft spin too. In the end parachutes were very robust and easy to engineer where the rotochute would have required millions and years of development so it was skipped for Apollo.
if I dig around I may stil have some videos of the systems we built. It was miraculous to see as it goes straighter than a parachute and slower and is just not affected by the wind as the blade tip speed relative to variations in wind speed is miniscule and it would reject off axis wind much much better. We abandoned it only because it would have taken about 3-4mill more to make the concept work and we didn't have the budget to do it, also there was some argument that it doesn't scale well with vehicle mass, you get into 1ton and above and suddenly you need gyrcopter sized blades and deploying those without issue is a real challenge or you need something also complex and unproven like telescoping or inflatable blades.
Suitable-Art-1544@reddit
im confused, is it studied heavily or not? đ
Schmantikor@reddit
Thanks a lot! This gave me so much inspiration for a story. (Though, just like gyro-landers, wether it ever gets to see the light of day is uncertain.)
Orange-V-Apple@reddit
Flare?
metarinka@reddit
You change the pitch angle of the blades to positive, thus generating lift. Since there's no engine you're using the rotating inertia of the blades to do the work. WE used a very simple collective mechanism to do this work.
KeyInteraction4201@reddit
I knew what it meant but the question had me considering the extra excitement that pyrotechnics could add to this. And by that I mean terror.
Mobryan71@reddit
Put little solid rockets on the rotors and fire them as part of the landing cycle, like the old style tip-jet helicopters.
N33chy@reddit
Adjusting control surfaces right before touchdown so the vehicle creates a cushion of air to "sink" into, quickly slowing it.
I'm not an aviator but that's my intuitive interpretation.
-Mac-n-Cheese-@reddit
yeah youre pretty on the nose, technically its the airframe pitching up to create the cushion and create extra lift from the AOA, but yeah largely youre correct
Pattern_Is_Movement@reddit
coooooool, you're right I can see it having some uses. Like you could resupply someone in the field silently and accurately at night from high altitude.
KeyInteraction4201@reddit
That is super-cool. Until I saw your comment it hadn't occurred to me that modern tech could make this really interesting.
Correct_Path5888@reddit
Halo 2 anyone?
FlatusGiganticus@reddit
This same concept was further developed for use in returning space capsules.
Tomato_Head120@reddit
The helldiver, halo and Warhammer drop pod special
Federal_Cobbler6647@reddit
Well, here they called it SSTO VTOVL. 1200 soldier capacityÂ
Atoshi@reddit
I mean Iâve played Halo. So I feel the general concept is solid.
Federal_Cobbler6647@reddit
Army agreed, look up Ithacus.Â
Blows_stuff_up@reddit
That's just another term for "landing an F-104."
WhistlingKyte@reddit
Aspect ratio: Fuck the pilot
Adventurous-Line1014@reddit
Just what was so complicated about dropping supplies with a parachute?
Cthell@reddit
I'm guessing the "high speed" aircraft part.
Being able to drop supplies at 0.8Mach would have certain tactical advantages
Potential4752@reddit
We use parachutes on space capsules, they can certainly handle mach 0.8. You just have to let the payload body bleed off some speed, then drogues, then parachutes.Â
Adventurous-Line1014@reddit
Maybe when resupplying an armored unit. That way you can hide under a tank when the supplies are due.
GlockAF@reddit
Parachutes that can survive near-supersonic deployment are neither cheap, lightweight, nor easy to engineer
razrielle@reddit
Yup, there are 0 emergency personnel parachutes that will survive a super sonic opening which is why all ejection seats have a deceleration cute (drogue)
GlockAF@reddit
Spacecraft returning from orbit also have a series of parachutes which open in sequence to slow them down
Zestyprotein@reddit
I mean, easier, lighter, and cheaper than this solution.
GlockAF@reddit
But would they ever be as cool?
Altaccount330@reddit
More of an effect from the wind. Easier to see. Now there is a heads up display for the pilot in a C130 and a computer specially designed to drop parachute loads onto a target.
Zestyprotein@reddit
And they have GPS-guided chutes, if they want.
Smellynerfherder@reddit
Being an engineer in the 50s must have been great.
vonHindenburg@reddit
Welcome aboard, Mr. Franks. I know you'll do great things here! Just tell Mrs. Johnson if you need anything... Pencils, rulers, scotch, or cocaine.
LefsaMadMuppet@reddit
*Boron, technically diborane. AKA Zip fuels: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zip_fuel
While it did work, it only worked for short periods of time before glassy deposits in the engines fouled them up and wrecked them.
Beryllium is used in construction. There were a couple rocket fuel studies for it, but they were never produced.
iamalsobrad@reddit
Beryllium + pentaborane in hydrazine was tried by both the US and the Soviets.
It tested very well, however no-one flew it because the exhaust was violently toxic.
b17flyingfortresses@reddit
And you think that wouldâve deterred the soviets??
FyreKnights@reddit
Irradiating the ground was preferable to what the beryllium mix would have done. Shits the real nasty stuff
iamalsobrad@reddit
Apparently so.
Also, bear in mind this is around the same time the US was trying to build a nuclear ramjet powered cruise missile was intended to fly over the USSR at mach 3 and 150 feet shitting out nuclear warheads and irradiating large swathes of the countryside with it's exhaust
But they drew the line at beryllium and pentaborane because it was a bit too nasty.
MrKeserian@reddit
I love the chapter in Ignition! about Flourine based fuels where even the author has this tone of "I can't beleive anyone even briefly thought this was a good idea."
Mobryan71@reddit
It's a great read, and available for free: https://archive.org/details/ignition_201612/page/n13/mode/1up
diogenesNY@reddit
I loved that book, and recommend it highly. Really just about everything imaginable was at least _tried_ as a liquid fuel, notwithstanding any appearance of sensible reason. Mercaptin compounds were tried. He included photos of a static fire of a mercaptin rocket. ---A giant rocket powered fart machine. Clark states that these tests were very unpopular.
LefsaMadMuppet@reddit
Now I need to go back and reread the book.
GlockAF@reddit
Well sure, itâs a bit inconvenient when your exotic rocket fuels react violently with every known construction material and are either highly corrosive cryogenic gasses or lethally toxic solids at room temperature and pressure, but hey, that ISP!
m00ph@reddit
You can use it in your afterburner though, that was considered for the B-70.
vonHindenburg@reddit
That's what I was thinking of! Though, in my defense, "Ignition!" does mention the beryllium as well.
RatherGoodDog@reddit
"And just ask your manager, Sturmbahnfu- I mean Herr Schmitt if you want some guidance. He can be a little strict but really he has a heart of gold."
Frappeaddiction@reddit
You mean Mr. von Braun?
SS-SturmbannfĂźhrer, SS member 1937-1945
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wernher_von_Braun
Atoshi@reddit
We used to be a proper country.
DagamarVanderk@reddit
You forgot the cartons of cigarettes
Adventurous-Line1014@reddit
Maybe it had a GPS
Sacharon123@reddit
/s?
Adventurous-Line1014@reddit
Partly. But if the lawn Dart/ Supply device could aim for a safe spot it would be helpful. Pretty sure GPS wasn't a thing then,though.
Sacharon123@reddit
You are correct, sir. This is closer to V2 inertial navigation then modern GPS-ordenance-guidance.
Top_Investment_4599@reddit
pre-Halo!
Smooth_Imagination@reddit
Now this I can imagine to the military folks can make sense for dropping glide munitions or other smart weapons.
They would not need large gyros, because they are not meant to land intact. Just a controlled descent to aid identification and tracking to a target. They might be launchible by mortar. The time to impact is extended allowing the device to identify and home in on targets.
KeyInteraction4201@reddit
Something like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1f_2LUHaNcE
I would think the parachute is a much simpler and cheaper solution but there may be some use for this kind of mechanism.
Smooth_Imagination@reddit
I was thinking exactly of this, but with the rotating mechanism.
The autogyro like approach should be less visible as it comes down, depending on rotation rate.
Steering though... Needs thought
KeyInteraction4201@reddit
Neat idea, but maybe just a tad over-engineered. And maybe just a tad more terrifying for anyone on the ground.
Bounceupandown@reddit
Seems dangerous to drop a swirling machete onto your own people
flyingscotsman12@reddit
Generally you try not to stand under air drops.
Bounceupandown@reddit
Retired Navy here. Whatever âimpossibleâ situation youâd like to describe, I and 100% guarantee it will happen in the military. I do not care what stats you have, reliability numbers, failure rates. It is for certain gonna happen and if it is reliant on people doing everything perfectly it will happen on a routine basis.
frix86@reddit
I mean yes, but a couple hundred pound pallet landing on you seems dangerous too. Probably don't want to be under either.
Zestyprotein@reddit
At least the parachute doesn't shatter into high-speed shrpanel in every direction.
dog_in_the_vent@reddit
At least you can try to get out of the way of a pallet under parachute.
Needaboutreefiddy@reddit
Sweet liberty it's beautiful!
GodsBackHair@reddit
Kaman engineers are from another world
fullouterjoin@reddit
You were doing so well with the links and stuff.
jacksmachiningreveng@reddit (OP)
It gives others the opportunity to shine ;)
Cricket_Support@reddit
"Supplies"
Chinese_Lover89@reddit
reminds me of that ball from the incredibles. didnt know it was based on a real concept