In case you were wondering, the US and Britain hold a very small amount of the overall BTC. Also China has the second highest, not sure why that wasn't mentioned. But these numbers are just the highest among government entities. Overall governments in general only hold less than 3% of total BTC
There are some Cryptos that can deliver anonymity but since your wallet id is static it's a permanent pseudonym. Once you identified who's behind which id it's a completely open transaction system where everyone can see what someone else is doing
The big coins have never claimed to be anonymous. This is miss-information that the layfolk scoop up because it fits with the ignorant "crypto is for crime" stereotype.
Btc is pseudonymous not anonymous. Transactions are public and logged. It is worse for privacy than cash or even fiat.
My point was, crypto is touted as some great decentralized currency but the two largest holders of the most popular and successful coin are the US and British governments. They could tank the value of Bitcoin in a heartbeat.
I know you don't care but their holdings combined amount to 1 day worth of trade volume. Yes they could cause a significant dip if they dump all at once but it would be a blip in the overall charts.
Elephant in the room: If all of this is known, why can't anything be done to retrieve the stolen bitcoin? Its not even real like gold bars or cash. You would think it would be much easier to just electronically take it back?
Not bitcoin, no. That's the whole point. It's a public ledger. You can hide it easily, as in make it so no one can find the wallet holding it. But it's 100% traceable so once blacklisted, it's pretty much only useful on the black market. Sort of like art. You can still buy and sell stolen art, just not at a public auction.
After depositing the crypto, the criminals employ mixers to obscure the history of transactions. Mixers blend an individual's cryptocurrency with others', rendering the tracking of individual coins nearly impossible. Following the mixer usage, the funds need to be converted into cash or a less volatile cryptocurrency
Mixers are unsound. You would like to put dirty coins in and get clean coins out, but there's no incentive for putting clean coins in. You get back coin just as dirty as you put in, if not worse (sucker!). In addition to being associated with the crime of the person who put them in, the coins you get out are now also associated with the crime of money laundering, if the government ever figures out that it was a tumbler you got them from.
But there's privacy coins! How do they solve the problem of a shortage of suckers to put clean coin in? Easy: users are force drafted to participate in the tumbler as a condition of using the currency at all! It's definitively effective, they have more suckers than traditional tumblers.
Mixers can work, in theory, but if a serious FBI or SS investigation is going on, they will be able to unwind it. Like I've said elsewhere, many people have been caught after using mixers. They have complicated state level blockchain analyzers which specialize in this stuff.
You will likely get away with, you know, 500 bucks to buy drugs online with... But not when you need to start cleaning millions worth of coins.
This is why Monero and other anon coins are best, because they have built in mixers. The mere fact of sending coins somewhere, puts the coins into an automatic mixer with everyone else sending coins, that triggers with each block discovery.
Mixers aren't foolproof though. Coinbase and other KYC exchanges aren't fans of receiving Bitcoin that's been through a mixer and a lot of people find out the hard way when their accounts get frozen for review.
I don't know if the North Koreans did it in this particular case, but I recall reading about a big hack a while back in which the hackers sent out millions of dollars in small transactions to all the largest and most active wallets on Ethereum at the time. They basically "tainted" everyone.
Coinbase is a centralized exchange, it can decide to do whatever it likes. But it's not omniscient and it's not necessarily going to be able to stop stolen tokens from being traded on it.
At a low level, sure... But if the FED wants to find you, they'll untangle that. They've busted people using mixers many many times. It just obscures small amounts, with large amounts significantly harder... And again, when the US government is looking for your ass, they'll do a full breakdown and tracking of the entire web those coins moved to to find you. They've busted many many many people using mixers.
I mean, use whatever you think is best for crime. Personally, I like my crime monies digital so Uncle Sam can't just take it out of the bank when I don't bribe them enough.
Isn't this a thread about an "alleged" governmental group taking digital monies out from people's crypto wallets against their will? I may be lost in the sauce but once more governments adapt to using crypto do you think uncle sam won't do this stuff?
Eh this is an exchange that got hacked. If you keep your coins in a cold wallet ain’t no way a hacker can get it. Unless they kidnap you and torture you to give them your keys.
A sitting president who weaponized the perceived discontent from an emotionally unstable middle class was propped up by laughable claims of masculinity by people like rogan, tate, and peterson. One of the first actions the new president did was mint a crypto pump and dump for him and his wife. This is an attack vector for corruption and a tacit disregard for the currency to which the office of the president is a steward.
Just because you're blind or willfully ignorant doesn't mean others are lacking in pattern recognition.
Sure... But we aren't talking about that. You're claiming it's "manosphere" propaganda to talk about bitcoin's decentralization. It's unhinged nonsense.
Dude you called it manosphere propoganda. BTC has been hyped by nerds since inception, it was all over Reddit wtih btc tip bot, it's a super geeky technology. Yeah, sure, many bros are into it, because it's an easy to access volatile finance game too... But it's not "propaganda" from the "manosphere"
I don't think you understand how BTC and privacy coins work. The coins can not just be given back. It put responsibility for ownership on the person who owns them. Sure it sucks if you lose them, but hopefully these people learn from their experience and practice better OPSEC when their money is involved. It's not a kids lemonade stand.
Whats a the point of a decentralized digital currency if the benefits of digitization can't be used? Like, fort knox was just remade in meta with all the failings of Zimbabwe bills
Yes, which people are obviously okay with as a tradeoff. Everything has tradeoffs. People using BTC are okay with that downside for all the other upsides.
I'm starting to think that I should be a Bitcoin thief. It doesn't appear to be a crime to steal it. No one's going to do anything about it. I mean, am I wrong here? I think I want to be a Bitcoin thief. I imagine it's hard but I want dat money, and ain't nobody going to do nothin about it.
You are presumably referring to the TheDAO "rescue" fork that was done in 2016? Such a thing would be impossible to do today. The only reason it could be done back then was because TheDAO was basically the only thing happening on the Ethereum blockchain and most of the major miners had bought into it. Nowadays the blockchain is vastly larger, the validators are much more diverse, and the proof-of-scale algorithm they switched to would make a contentious fork much more dangerous for the participants to try.
The very theft that this article is about shows it. The initial theft was actually ~$1.5 billion of Ether and other tokens on the Ethereum network, which was then traded for Bitcoin by the hackers. So Ethereum actually had the first opportunity to "reverse" it and it was neither capable nor willing to do so.
I should note, Bitcoin itself has been rolled back. There was an incident in 2010 where the miners rolled back the blockchain's state. That's actually more than was done with the TheDAO "rescue" fork, which didn't roll back the blockchain but only changed the Ether balance of two addresses. So this is not even something that was unique to Ethereum.
That not how it works that's literally why it was made and it's why trying to have a reserve is a terrible idea.
There's no security it's not a bank if it's stolen it's gone.
That's also why so many people don't like Bitcoin it's quite literally a currency build on fraud and buying illegal goods and activities as well as gambling.
I have watched it since it was Less than a few bucks.
It's all backed up by hopes and dreams and it will come crashing down because it's a digital Ponzi it's why you keep seeing people try and pump and sell it because for it to go up more people have to buy in.
There will be a massive rug pull it's not if it happens it's when.
They want it as it can't be regulated, it's easier to hide, and by using it as a currency it will increase its value, and kill a little of it's volatility
Id recommend looking into what cryptocurrency is. Here’s a 2 min run down: https://youtu.be/0B3sccDYwuI?si=hFxQc8VirrWLqroK
The entire system utilizes cryptography. If you notice the “password” that used is really really long and complicated and can’t be changed or recovered once lost. That’s the true integrity of bitcoin. No one can just take or seize it. They can’t crack the password either. In order for someone to be able to crack that password, they would have to accomplish something that is currently, realistically impossible. For someone to have the ability to crack that password— they would have the tools to make all modern encryption and digital security absolutely obsolete. The entire system (and the world) operate on the principle of cryptography that (currently) cant be decrypted w/o the password.
They robbed the bank people kept their money in. It's safest to have the wallet on a machine you own, but people kept massive amounts of Bitcoin on cloud servers that were vulnerable instead and those got robbe.d
Imagine you stored your credit card number/expiration/cvv info along with your address on your computer in a notepad so you can easily copy/paste it into credit card forms on websites because you do a lot of online shopping and manually typing it out each time gets tedious.
If your computer gets hacked, they now have your credit card info and can make purchases online. That's what NK has been doing with these bitcoin hacks.
TLDR:
They didn't hack bitcoin itself. They hacked the computers, that had weak security, that the bitcoins were on.
You hack the weakest link. Most often it's social engineering, then default passwords and default router settings.
Get the log in details by asking for it. Like for example all the crypto exchanges facilitate trading by using your login details and doing the necessary wallet actions for you. So instead of hacking the owner of a wallet, you trick the minimum wage employee and get hundreds of login details in a single sweep.
The system is needlessly complicated, obtuse and hostile to customers. When NFT's were all the rage, people made automated scamming NFT's that are send to people's wallets(you can't stop that) and when you accidentally click on your new NFT, it robs you of all your NFTs, cryptocoins and any other valuables it can steal.
Scams, hacks, phishing, viruses, whatever you can think of to steal data on someone's PC. Once they or the victim transfers the bitcoin out of a wallet into one controlled by North Korea that bitcoin is never leaving without the express permission of the North Korean state
It is cash, digital cash. What do you do when another bloke take your cash? Do you ask the federal reserve to re summon your cash or you ask the police to quack him and force him to give you back himself?
Actually yes. and we could make 3rd party software marking those coins as blacklisted or stolen and then everyone could get together and decide not to take them. But the coins themselves are not recoverable in any real way. They were stolen because people don't know how to secure passwords and they can't be stolen back any other way.
Yeah that's what I'm getting at. Unless I'm missing something, anyone who buys these could get hit with accepting stolen goods if they buy/sell in any way that identifies them.
It's the 3rd party everyone has to agree on that can blacklist coins part that people won't allow. What are the criteria? Who gets to decide? They would have absolute control of the entire system.
Again, it is centralizing power in a decentralized currency. There is no way everyone would agree to it. It goes against everything the coin is supposed to do. The problem isn't just the thief, its the dumb ass that left the doors unlocked. Its like saying that some body or government could decide which cars are "stolen" and be able to arbitrarily lock them forever based on that decision. Who would these people be? how would they decide? Those people would have absolute power over a system that is supposed to be distributed and free of control.
If you steal a car in the US and the VIN is checked in Europe, it's likely to show up as stolen. Do you believe this is an overreach and centralization of power?
Are you arguing to argue or do you generally not understand? Cars are not a decentralized currency. Nothing about the production and use of cars has anything to do with a distributed system that depends on running free of any controlling body. I used your analogy to try and help you understand the concept, and the general unwillingness of the bitcoin userbase to allow 3rd party control of what is ostensibly an uncontrolled and independent system. What can I say...I tried.
It's a thing that is serialized and can be owned similar to how NFTs and other crypto can be "owned." That's literally the closest thing to a real value that it has.
I don't think governments would really much care what the "userbase" thinks. Go ahead, buy some North Korean crypto that's linked to one of these heists and tell the FBI. Let me know how that goes.
Do you buy bitcoin? Honest question. I don't really think I've ever gotten a choice. Hey look at this fine European coin, or look at the coin selection of Canada. It doesn't really work like that. And the government? What control does the "government" have? which government? where? how. That's the point. Bitcoin was released into the wild and it has no control, there is no board, there is no single entity that can dictate what happens and when. There is only the user and the blockchain.
The registries for Bitcoin are publicly available, and based on proof of work. You can't "undo" a transaction, because no one can edit these registries, they can only be viewed. Even if you somehow did, no one would trust your system, since your registry would be different from the one everybody else would be seeing. The best they can do is block any transaction they do with suspected North Korean addresses. But that won't stop others from transacting with them.
They absolutely can be altered, reversed, cancelled, deleted and whatever else you can think of. It requires a plurality of the pool to agree that the new transaction is the valid one and the old invalid though and being distributed, the presumption is that achieving that consensus is not feasible. Short of a cartel controlling 50%+ of the mining pool, it should not be.
Short of a cartel controlling 50%+ of the mining pool
Which then it ties to the value of bitcoin and create an interest for people, not just the group who can control above 50%+ of the total network power but other miners as well to protect the network (ledger) integrity.
Part of it is certainly that if someone just took money away from a wallet then the confidence in crypto overall will take a hit. Especially if the amount taken is in the billions. And all this valuation comes from confidence in its future value in the first place.
I doubt that's the whole reason, maybe they just can't or there's some other considerations.
"They" can't because there is no easily identified "they" to do it. Bitcoin is controlled by the miners and you would need control of more than 50% of the mining power to control it. Considering this mining power is spread across the world and controlled by hundreds of thousands or maybe millions of entities ranging from governments to businesses to individuals, with no way of easily identifying those who control them in most places, it is an impossible task. You would need to convince a majority to willingly support this. And doing so would undermine a central tenant of Bitcoin, likely collapsing the value.
if there was no inter-country communication crypto would split up into local forks/destroyed. If you can force a dozen or so forks, it'd be done I think.
Why would it be done? They each get listed in the market and their prices are decided by it. How is this any different from countries having their own fiat?
Well, -ish. In theory a majority of miners could form a coalition that could reverse any transaction. In practice, that would end the value of the coin in question so there's really no incentive to do so for any coin where they are making money.
In reality, it's all bullshit anyhow so everyone is walking on eggshells trying not to upset the applecart unless they are intentionally trying to crash the coin in question and start the pump and dump cycle again.
If you know the vulnerabilities needed to steal or scam the Crypto away from someone. You likely know enough to patch those same vulnerabilities to prevent them from stealing it back.
You can't just take an asset of a foreign government like that. Also that's not how bitcoin works, you can't just take bitcoin. You need the private key that declares ownership over the coin. US 're-stealing' crypto from this Lazarus company would also just be theft.
Well, the US Federal Reserve is apparently the largest holder of bitcoin and most of it actually comes from confiscating BTC from illegal or irregular activities, including nation states adversaries.
Only if the wallets they stole it into are stored in an idiotically insecure manner. Like it was for them to have been able to steal it in the first place.
You can do the reverse operation in Bitcoin but you cannot force the other party to do so, that's the biggest advantage but also the biggest drawback of cryptocurrency.
The lesson here to people that don't know anything about BTC isn't that BTC is unsafe, but that these crypto exchanges (which act as banks, holding your coins for you) are the ones that are unsafe. This is the equivalent of a bank robbery. But the beauty about BTC is that you shouldn't be using the bank anyways, it is a decentralized currency. Your transactions aren't dependent on a middle man, ie a bank. Holding your coins on an exchange is just adding risk to yourself.
I remember a few years ago being told that Bulgaria was one of the largest bitcoin holders in the world; we had confiscated some criminal's property, which apparently included bitcoin though we couldn't actually get the key. Regardless, the North Koreans seem to have beaten us
According to data published by a cryptocurrency monitoring company, North Korea’s biggest and most successful cyber-hacking organisation, Lazarus, holds a total of 13,580 bitcoin, worth £886 million, after a record-breaking theft last month.
That is around 1 billion dollars. Any country can match that if they want.
North Korea has become the world’s third-largest holder of bitcoin after the governments of the United States and Britain, after the success of hackers stealing cryptocurrency in audacious online attacks.
According to data published by a cryptocurrency monitoring company, North Korea’s biggest and most successful cyber-hacking organisation, Lazarus, holds a total of 13,580 bitcoin, worth £886 million, after a record-breaking theft last month.
According to Arkham Intelligence, which uses artificial intelligence to identify the owners of anonymous crypto holdings, this places Pyongyang behind only Britain, with £3.9 billion of bitcoin, and the US, with at least £12.7 billion. Both governments have acquired their holdings through seizures of funds held by criminals.
demonspawns_ghost@reddit
I'm sorry what? I thought the entire point of crypto was...actually, nevermind. I actually don't care about this. gg Kim.
Tquila_Mockingbird@reddit
In case you were wondering, the US and Britain hold a very small amount of the overall BTC. Also China has the second highest, not sure why that wasn't mentioned. But these numbers are just the highest among government entities. Overall governments in general only hold less than 3% of total BTC
TheWhitekrayon@reddit
For now
hannes3120@reddit
Pseudonymity =/= Anonymity
There are some Cryptos that can deliver anonymity but since your wallet id is static it's a permanent pseudonym. Once you identified who's behind which id it's a completely open transaction system where everyone can see what someone else is doing
demonspawns_ghost@reddit
Hmm...
Nah, still don't care.
powerexcess@reddit
The big coins have never claimed to be anonymous. This is miss-information that the layfolk scoop up because it fits with the ignorant "crypto is for crime" stereotype.
Btc is pseudonymous not anonymous. Transactions are public and logged. It is worse for privacy than cash or even fiat.
If you want privacy look at privacy coins.
demonspawns_ghost@reddit
As I said, I really don't care.
My point was, crypto is touted as some great decentralized currency but the two largest holders of the most popular and successful coin are the US and British governments. They could tank the value of Bitcoin in a heartbeat.
powerexcess@reddit
Ah so you were focusing on who holds crypto, not the lack of anonymity.
Govs hold like 2% last time i checked.
And they dont control fiscal policy. To tank it they would need to give it up. They cant print it.
They do have some influence but this is not in any way similar to that central banks can do to fiat.
TheWhitekrayon@reddit
Us has a Bitcoin plan though. They want to get enough to control it.
Regalme@reddit
The transaction processing is decentralized. You don’t seem to understand Bitcoin.
Decentralized transactions means that no party can change data
danarchist@reddit
I know you don't care but their holdings combined amount to 1 day worth of trade volume. Yes they could cause a significant dip if they dump all at once but it would be a blip in the overall charts.
zeth4@reddit
Absolutely hilarious.
Neomataza@reddit
Yes. Crypto fails at the one thing it aims at.
Coolenough-to@reddit
Elephant in the room: If all of this is known, why can't anything be done to retrieve the stolen bitcoin? Its not even real like gold bars or cash. You would think it would be much easier to just electronically take it back?
King_Kvnt@reddit
There's no customer support and no reversing transactions. That's a big part of the attraction.
DingleTheDongle@reddit
https://youtu.be/YQ_xWvX1n9g?si=RFTgwttrmFRKot-E
Forking
reddit_is_geh@reddit
Yes you need 51% of all nodes to agree on doing it, which is not only hard, but sets dangerous precedent to organize and remove someone's coin.
Instead, there are just 3rd party services which track "dirty" bitcoin and put them on a blacklist so reputable services refuse those coins
Lalalama@reddit
Can people launder it so it’s untraceable?
reddit_is_geh@reddit
Not bitcoin, no. That's the whole point. It's a public ledger. You can hide it easily, as in make it so no one can find the wallet holding it. But it's 100% traceable so once blacklisted, it's pretty much only useful on the black market. Sort of like art. You can still buy and sell stolen art, just not at a public auction.
Lalalama@reddit
After depositing the crypto, the criminals employ mixers to obscure the history of transactions. Mixers blend an individual's cryptocurrency with others', rendering the tracking of individual coins nearly impossible. Following the mixer usage, the funds need to be converted into cash or a less volatile cryptocurrency
SeoliteLoungeMusic@reddit
Mixers are unsound. You would like to put dirty coins in and get clean coins out, but there's no incentive for putting clean coins in. You get back coin just as dirty as you put in, if not worse (sucker!). In addition to being associated with the crime of the person who put them in, the coins you get out are now also associated with the crime of money laundering, if the government ever figures out that it was a tumbler you got them from.
But there's privacy coins! How do they solve the problem of a shortage of suckers to put clean coin in? Easy: users are force drafted to participate in the tumbler as a condition of using the currency at all! It's definitively effective, they have more suckers than traditional tumblers.
Lalalama@reddit
u/reddit_is_geh what's your reponse?
reddit_is_geh@reddit
Mixers can work, in theory, but if a serious FBI or SS investigation is going on, they will be able to unwind it. Like I've said elsewhere, many people have been caught after using mixers. They have complicated state level blockchain analyzers which specialize in this stuff.
You will likely get away with, you know, 500 bucks to buy drugs online with... But not when you need to start cleaning millions worth of coins.
This is why Monero and other anon coins are best, because they have built in mixers. The mere fact of sending coins somewhere, puts the coins into an automatic mixer with everyone else sending coins, that triggers with each block discovery.
1_Pump_Dump@reddit
Mixers aren't foolproof though. Coinbase and other KYC exchanges aren't fans of receiving Bitcoin that's been through a mixer and a lot of people find out the hard way when their accounts get frozen for review.
FaceDeer@reddit
I don't know if the North Koreans did it in this particular case, but I recall reading about a big hack a while back in which the hackers sent out millions of dollars in small transactions to all the largest and most active wallets on Ethereum at the time. They basically "tainted" everyone.
Coinbase is a centralized exchange, it can decide to do whatever it likes. But it's not omniscient and it's not necessarily going to be able to stop stolen tokens from being traded on it.
reddit_is_geh@reddit
At a low level, sure... But if the FED wants to find you, they'll untangle that. They've busted people using mixers many many times. It just obscures small amounts, with large amounts significantly harder... And again, when the US government is looking for your ass, they'll do a full breakdown and tracking of the entire web those coins moved to to find you. They've busted many many many people using mixers.
merelyadoptedthedark@reddit
Where else is bitcoin useable?
reddit_is_geh@reddit
Laundering money.
DingleTheDongle@reddit
There is a word to describe an entire group of individuals who refuse to fix a crime that is within their right to: cooked.
There is no such thing as reputable in crypto, your first statement said so.
reddit_is_geh@reddit
Crypto is decentralized. There is no managing or leading group. What you're asking is that they centralize it, which literally defeats the purpose.
fonzwazhere@reddit
We already have centralized xhitcoin called the petro dollar with crime and corruption grandfathered in.
reddit_is_geh@reddit
I mean, use whatever you think is best for crime. Personally, I like my crime monies digital so Uncle Sam can't just take it out of the bank when I don't bribe them enough.
ArchaKun@reddit
Isn't this a thread about an "alleged" governmental group taking digital monies out from people's crypto wallets against their will? I may be lost in the sauce but once more governments adapt to using crypto do you think uncle sam won't do this stuff?
SeeisforComedy@reddit
Eh this is an exchange that got hacked. If you keep your coins in a cold wallet ain’t no way a hacker can get it. Unless they kidnap you and torture you to give them your keys.
reddit_is_geh@reddit
Yeah through scams and hacks... They aren't calling up Bitcoin.com and telling them to freeze my wallet.
4x4play@reddit
mic drop
DingleTheDongle@reddit
Wanna know how I know you're operating off of manosphere propaganda?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fork_(blockchain)
reddit_is_geh@reddit
God, what the fuck is up with redditors who just think everything is propaganda... Wait, now it's MANOSPHERE propagandas. Like holy fuck stop it.
DingleTheDongle@reddit
A sitting president who weaponized the perceived discontent from an emotionally unstable middle class was propped up by laughable claims of masculinity by people like rogan, tate, and peterson. One of the first actions the new president did was mint a crypto pump and dump for him and his wife. This is an attack vector for corruption and a tacit disregard for the currency to which the office of the president is a steward.
Just because you're blind or willfully ignorant doesn't mean others are lacking in pattern recognition.
reddit_is_geh@reddit
Bro this conversation is about bitcoin. WTF are you going on about?
DingleTheDongle@reddit
How crypto is an avenue of corruption and exploitation. U?
reddit_is_geh@reddit
You think it's some large psyop conspiracy involving fucking Joe Rogan and the Republican party... Like WTF dude. It's not that complicated.
DingleTheDongle@reddit
Uhhh, where did I mis-speak? Did trump not release a coin?
reddit_is_geh@reddit
Sure... But we aren't talking about that. You're claiming it's "manosphere" propaganda to talk about bitcoin's decentralization. It's unhinged nonsense.
DingleTheDongle@reddit
That's a gross misrepresentation of my points. We can all sit here and call each other deranged if we like, tho.
I was talking about the inherent scam of crypto and how it is sold vs what it really is.
North Korea can be forked out of this but too many scammers have to much say because grift is endemic to the entire project
reddit_is_geh@reddit
Dude you called it manosphere propoganda. BTC has been hyped by nerds since inception, it was all over Reddit wtih btc tip bot, it's a super geeky technology. Yeah, sure, many bros are into it, because it's an easy to access volatile finance game too... But it's not "propaganda" from the "manosphere"
DingleTheDongle@reddit
Nerds and manosphere propaganda aren't mutually exclusive. Have you seen musk's torso or petersons lil outifts
RobotsGoneWild@reddit
I don't think you understand how BTC and privacy coins work. The coins can not just be given back. It put responsibility for ownership on the person who owns them. Sure it sucks if you lose them, but hopefully these people learn from their experience and practice better OPSEC when their money is involved. It's not a kids lemonade stand.
DingleTheDongle@reddit
I never asked for a give back
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fork_(blockchain)
Whats a the point of a decentralized digital currency if the benefits of digitization can't be used? Like, fort knox was just remade in meta with all the failings of Zimbabwe bills
Agnimandur@reddit
It's very difficult to track "dirty" Bitcoin, especially when it gets mixed through services like Tornado.
eightNote@reddit
which compares to the dangerous precedent of saying that stealing bitcoin means you can keep it.
reddit_is_geh@reddit
Yes, which people are obviously okay with as a tradeoff. Everything has tradeoffs. People using BTC are okay with that downside for all the other upsides.
Freethecrafts@reddit
It’s like everything else. Any government that controls more than half the process can do whatever they want.
turkeypants@reddit
I'm starting to think that I should be a Bitcoin thief. It doesn't appear to be a crime to steal it. No one's going to do anything about it. I mean, am I wrong here? I think I want to be a Bitcoin thief. I imagine it's hard but I want dat money, and ain't nobody going to do nothin about it.
KarlaSofen234@reddit
What's wrong is the NK sending assassins after you for taking their loot
Ontological_Gap@reddit
Tell that the etherum guys
FaceDeer@reddit
You are presumably referring to the TheDAO "rescue" fork that was done in 2016? Such a thing would be impossible to do today. The only reason it could be done back then was because TheDAO was basically the only thing happening on the Ethereum blockchain and most of the major miners had bought into it. Nowadays the blockchain is vastly larger, the validators are much more diverse, and the proof-of-scale algorithm they switched to would make a contentious fork much more dangerous for the participants to try.
The very theft that this article is about shows it. The initial theft was actually ~$1.5 billion of Ether and other tokens on the Ethereum network, which was then traded for Bitcoin by the hackers. So Ethereum actually had the first opportunity to "reverse" it and it was neither capable nor willing to do so.
I should note, Bitcoin itself has been rolled back. There was an incident in 2010 where the miners rolled back the blockchain's state. That's actually more than was done with the TheDAO "rescue" fork, which didn't roll back the blockchain but only changed the Ether balance of two addresses. So this is not even something that was unique to Ethereum.
Fecal-Facts@reddit
That not how it works that's literally why it was made and it's why trying to have a reserve is a terrible idea.
There's no security it's not a bank if it's stolen it's gone.
That's also why so many people don't like Bitcoin it's quite literally a currency build on fraud and buying illegal goods and activities as well as gambling.
I have watched it since it was Less than a few bucks.
It's all backed up by hopes and dreams and it will come crashing down because it's a digital Ponzi it's why you keep seeing people try and pump and sell it because for it to go up more people have to buy in.
There will be a massive rug pull it's not if it happens it's when.
stoneyyay@reddit
The whole point of cryptos value is it can't be regulated like money and banks can.
This is why the us oligarchy want it so bad.
teilani_a@reddit
What? The US oligarchy is trying to base the US economy on it now lol
stoneyyay@reddit
Correct.
They want it as it can't be regulated, it's easier to hide, and by using it as a currency it will increase its value, and kill a little of it's volatility
TimeGrownOld@reddit
It's not easier to hide, it's a literal public ledger 🙄
stoneyyay@reddit
Sort of yes. But it's easy to get "lost in the crowd
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptocurrency_tumbler
There's also wallets that keep your info locked down.
TimeGrownOld@reddit
There's Know Your Customer laws in the US, and cryptotumblers are going to be illegal soon (though how they will enforce it is beyond me).
I'm just saying cash is still king when it comes to hiding your transactions; zero paper trail
teilani_a@reddit
Don't forget to buy your melaniacoin!
anonwashere96@reddit
Id recommend looking into what cryptocurrency is. Here’s a 2 min run down: https://youtu.be/0B3sccDYwuI?si=hFxQc8VirrWLqroK
The entire system utilizes cryptography. If you notice the “password” that used is really really long and complicated and can’t be changed or recovered once lost. That’s the true integrity of bitcoin. No one can just take or seize it. They can’t crack the password either. In order for someone to be able to crack that password, they would have to accomplish something that is currently, realistically impossible. For someone to have the ability to crack that password— they would have the tools to make all modern encryption and digital security absolutely obsolete. The entire system (and the world) operate on the principle of cryptography that (currently) cant be decrypted w/o the password.
CloudExtremist@reddit
So how did nkoreans steal it in the first place?
Shiroi_Kage@reddit
They robbed the bank people kept their money in. It's safest to have the wallet on a machine you own, but people kept massive amounts of Bitcoin on cloud servers that were vulnerable instead and those got robbe.d
executor-of-judgment@reddit
ELI5:
Imagine you stored your credit card number/expiration/cvv info along with your address on your computer in a notepad so you can easily copy/paste it into credit card forms on websites because you do a lot of online shopping and manually typing it out each time gets tedious.
If your computer gets hacked, they now have your credit card info and can make purchases online. That's what NK has been doing with these bitcoin hacks.
TLDR:
They didn't hack bitcoin itself. They hacked the computers, that had weak security, that the bitcoins were on.
Amberatlast@reddit
Also, in a broader sense of "stolen" ransomware and scam rings are directing people to pay in BTC now, I'm sure they're on that too.
Neomataza@reddit
You hack the weakest link. Most often it's social engineering, then default passwords and default router settings.
Get the log in details by asking for it. Like for example all the crypto exchanges facilitate trading by using your login details and doing the necessary wallet actions for you. So instead of hacking the owner of a wallet, you trick the minimum wage employee and get hundreds of login details in a single sweep.
The system is needlessly complicated, obtuse and hostile to customers. When NFT's were all the rage, people made automated scamming NFT's that are send to people's wallets(you can't stop that) and when you accidentally click on your new NFT, it robs you of all your NFTs, cryptocoins and any other valuables it can steal.
Paradoxjjw@reddit
Scams, hacks, phishing, viruses, whatever you can think of to steal data on someone's PC. Once they or the victim transfers the bitcoin out of a wallet into one controlled by North Korea that bitcoin is never leaving without the express permission of the North Korean state
leixiaotie@reddit
some methods, the old unreliable bruteforce to the personal device hacking for credentials and phising.
Soggy_Association491@reddit
It is cash, digital cash. What do you do when another bloke take your cash? Do you ask the federal reserve to re summon your cash or you ask the police to quack him and force him to give you back himself?
teilani_a@reddit
In this comparison, wouldn't the serial number of every cash bill be known?
some_guy_on_drugs@reddit
Actually yes. and we could make 3rd party software marking those coins as blacklisted or stolen and then everyone could get together and decide not to take them. But the coins themselves are not recoverable in any real way. They were stolen because people don't know how to secure passwords and they can't be stolen back any other way.
teilani_a@reddit
Yeah that's what I'm getting at. Unless I'm missing something, anyone who buys these could get hit with accepting stolen goods if they buy/sell in any way that identifies them.
some_guy_on_drugs@reddit
It's the 3rd party everyone has to agree on that can blacklist coins part that people won't allow. What are the criteria? Who gets to decide? They would have absolute control of the entire system.
teilani_a@reddit
If someone steals your car, sells it in another country, then that buyer comes to the US and wants to sell it to you, you're fine with that?
some_guy_on_drugs@reddit
Again, it is centralizing power in a decentralized currency. There is no way everyone would agree to it. It goes against everything the coin is supposed to do. The problem isn't just the thief, its the dumb ass that left the doors unlocked. Its like saying that some body or government could decide which cars are "stolen" and be able to arbitrarily lock them forever based on that decision. Who would these people be? how would they decide? Those people would have absolute power over a system that is supposed to be distributed and free of control.
teilani_a@reddit
If you steal a car in the US and the VIN is checked in Europe, it's likely to show up as stolen. Do you believe this is an overreach and centralization of power?
some_guy_on_drugs@reddit
Are you arguing to argue or do you generally not understand? Cars are not a decentralized currency. Nothing about the production and use of cars has anything to do with a distributed system that depends on running free of any controlling body. I used your analogy to try and help you understand the concept, and the general unwillingness of the bitcoin userbase to allow 3rd party control of what is ostensibly an uncontrolled and independent system. What can I say...I tried.
teilani_a@reddit
It's a thing that is serialized and can be owned similar to how NFTs and other crypto can be "owned." That's literally the closest thing to a real value that it has.
I don't think governments would really much care what the "userbase" thinks. Go ahead, buy some North Korean crypto that's linked to one of these heists and tell the FBI. Let me know how that goes.
some_guy_on_drugs@reddit
Do you buy bitcoin? Honest question. I don't really think I've ever gotten a choice. Hey look at this fine European coin, or look at the coin selection of Canada. It doesn't really work like that. And the government? What control does the "government" have? which government? where? how. That's the point. Bitcoin was released into the wild and it has no control, there is no board, there is no single entity that can dictate what happens and when. There is only the user and the blockchain.
teilani_a@reddit
Then how do we know it was North Korea?
Soggy_Association491@reddit
What do you mean? You do know the serial number of every cash bill in your wallet.
teilani_a@reddit
...No?
Coolenough-to@reddit
Right, but in this case it can't be hidden in a warehouse. You dont have to go get it. But I don't understand the crypto details really.
qjxj@reddit
The registries for Bitcoin are publicly available, and based on proof of work. You can't "undo" a transaction, because no one can edit these registries, they can only be viewed. Even if you somehow did, no one would trust your system, since your registry would be different from the one everybody else would be seeing. The best they can do is block any transaction they do with suspected North Korean addresses. But that won't stop others from transacting with them.
NorthernerWuwu@reddit
They absolutely can be altered, reversed, cancelled, deleted and whatever else you can think of. It requires a plurality of the pool to agree that the new transaction is the valid one and the old invalid though and being distributed, the presumption is that achieving that consensus is not feasible. Short of a cartel controlling 50%+ of the mining pool, it should not be.
Soggy_Association491@reddit
Which then it ties to the value of bitcoin and create an interest for people, not just the group who can control above 50%+ of the total network power but other miners as well to protect the network (ledger) integrity.
Soggy_Association491@reddit
The digit cash are not being hidden in a warehouse. You can quack the guy with the password and get him to give them back.
Just think of bitcoin is cash but digital.
LeagueOfLegendsAcc@reddit
Part of it is certainly that if someone just took money away from a wallet then the confidence in crypto overall will take a hit. Especially if the amount taken is in the billions. And all this valuation comes from confidence in its future value in the first place.
I doubt that's the whole reason, maybe they just can't or there's some other considerations.
DynamicDK@reddit
"They" can't because there is no easily identified "they" to do it. Bitcoin is controlled by the miners and you would need control of more than 50% of the mining power to control it. Considering this mining power is spread across the world and controlled by hundreds of thousands or maybe millions of entities ranging from governments to businesses to individuals, with no way of easily identifying those who control them in most places, it is an impossible task. You would need to convince a majority to willingly support this. And doing so would undermine a central tenant of Bitcoin, likely collapsing the value.
feedmytv@reddit
if there was no inter-country communication crypto would split up into local forks/destroyed. If you can force a dozen or so forks, it'd be done I think.
lucid-node@reddit
Why would it be done? They each get listed in the market and their prices are decided by it. How is this any different from countries having their own fiat?
Ok-Mood8906@reddit
There is no "they" that can consider taking the money back in a decentralized currency.
NorthernerWuwu@reddit
Well, -ish. In theory a majority of miners could form a coalition that could reverse any transaction. In practice, that would end the value of the coin in question so there's really no incentive to do so for any coin where they are making money.
In reality, it's all bullshit anyhow so everyone is walking on eggshells trying not to upset the applecart unless they are intentionally trying to crash the coin in question and start the pump and dump cycle again.
zeth4@reddit
If you know the vulnerabilities needed to steal or scam the Crypto away from someone. You likely know enough to patch those same vulnerabilities to prevent them from stealing it back.
Dwman113@reddit
lol I envy being this naive.
dreal46@reddit
THE MOST SAFE, SECURE, AND DECENTRALIZED CURRENCY. SO DECENTRALIZED THAT YOU HAVE NO RECOURSE IN THE EVENT OF THEFT.
Sislar@reddit
The entire point of bitcoin is if you have the key no one can take it away from you. Who ever has the key the wallet has control on the money.
One other promise was it being anonymous but that is bull as you can see from this article that the flow of money is always traceable.
M0therN4ture@reddit
You can't take it back but major exchanges know exactly which wallets are used by them, even if they use mixers.
FaceDeer@reddit
Not if they use mixers, that's the point of mixers.
Lost-Associate-9290@reddit
You can't just take an asset of a foreign government like that. Also that's not how bitcoin works, you can't just take bitcoin. You need the private key that declares ownership over the coin. US 're-stealing' crypto from this Lazarus company would also just be theft.
kontemplador@reddit
Well, the US Federal Reserve is apparently the largest holder of bitcoin and most of it actually comes from confiscating BTC from illegal or irregular activities, including nation states adversaries.
muchcharles@reddit
Some congressmen are trying to make much more of the reserve bitcoin beyond just confiscations. Would turn North Korea into a minor economic power.
Carlos_Tellier@reddit
If it was that easy there wouldn’t be criminals using it
CandyFromABaby91@reddit
That’s the literal whole point of crypto. A bank/government can’t just take or freeze your money.
ControlledShutdown@reddit
You can certainly steal it back
The_Synthax@reddit
Only if the wallets they stole it into are stored in an idiotically insecure manner. Like it was for them to have been able to steal it in the first place.
ControlledShutdown@reddit
still easier than "just electronically take it back"
ThisI5N0tAThr0waway@reddit
You can do the reverse operation in Bitcoin but you cannot force the other party to do so, that's the biggest advantage but also the biggest drawback of cryptocurrency.
Tquila_Mockingbird@reddit
The lesson here to people that don't know anything about BTC isn't that BTC is unsafe, but that these crypto exchanges (which act as banks, holding your coins for you) are the ones that are unsafe. This is the equivalent of a bank robbery. But the beauty about BTC is that you shouldn't be using the bank anyways, it is a decentralized currency. Your transactions aren't dependent on a middle man, ie a bank. Holding your coins on an exchange is just adding risk to yourself.
Gah_Duma@reddit
It's not adding risk. You're assuming holding coins yourself is safe. It's not because it's entirely dependent on human error.
So instead of a bank robbery it would just be a house robbery.
TheSamuil@reddit
I remember a few years ago being told that Bulgaria was one of the largest bitcoin holders in the world; we had confiscated some criminal's property, which apparently included bitcoin though we couldn't actually get the key. Regardless, the North Koreans seem to have beaten us
FaceDeer@reddit
If Bulgaria couldn't get the key then they didn't confiscate it.
Alpha_Majoris@reddit
That is around 1 billion dollars. Any country can match that if they want.
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