It's unusual for genocidal intent to be so clearly expressed, yet we have many examples over the last 18 months from senior Israeli leaders of every level and political party.
Anyone pretending at this stage that this is anything other than collective punishment, war crimes and ethnic cleansing is either being intellectually dishonest or deluding themselves.
Simply put: if you support Israel's actions in Gaza, you support the mass killing of children.
Try to obfuscate and find justification all you like: this is what you support.
"Give us our people back or we'll hit you with everything we have." "LOL NO the rules (that we don't follow) say you have to only fight our soldiers and since we don't mark our soldiers as soldiers you can't shoot back lololol"
You can’t fafo away dead children, especially when there was an agreement for the hostages that Israel has always sabotaged.
It’s easy for people like you to talk shit from across the globe, but these are real people and they are the ones that will suffer, both Israelis and Palestinians.
Is that why hamas took the civilians hostage, because they were on the wrong land? Would a native American be justified in kidnapping your family and holding them hostage?
Wait, if a Native American in the 1800’s killed a European that, in your opinion, would mean that manifest destiny was totally okay and it was all the Native Americans’ fault?
You are saying that Hamas took hostages because Israel is illegally occupying their land. You are also illegally occupying native american lands. I'm not talking 1800, I'm saying right now. By your own logic any native would be justified performing violence against you and your family. Or does that only work on jews?
Now that we're on the same page. I don't mind answering questions by the way, that's healthy dialog. It only seems like when I ask mine you're less hesitant so I'll try asking a few more again
Was hamas justified in taking the hostages it took on October 7th for Israel's crimes against Palestinian people?
Do you think hamas should release the hostages without any further delay with or without the deal they made with Isreal actually taking place?
Would you call the events of October 7th to be self defense?
Israel, as the perpetrator of the illegal occupation, doesn’t.
Israelis as a whole, which is 21% Arab, aren't allowed self defense because they are occupiers. The people who were massacred on October 7th in your mind should have not fought back got it.
Hamas would not be justified in harming
They are justified in kidnapping but not harming. Can I ask you something, if someone kidnapped your family member is that harming then?
I don’t condone the violence against civilians on 10/7, but according to international law Palestine has a right to self defense.
Do you not see that 58 years of land theft and apartheid caused 10/7? Do you understand cause and effect?
Of course kidnapping is harmful, Israel should have thought about that before bulldozing Palestinians homes for the last several decades and torturing their children in military prisons.
The ICJ has ruled Israel is guilty of apartheid and that the settlements are illegal. How can you possibly not understand that the apartheid state are the bad guys?
There’s never been a country in the history of the world that stole land and committed apartheid that were the good guys
No, it’s like saying the IRA committing terrorism was the fault of the British, it’s a sociological perspective. The oppressors are the root of the problem.
People that are brutally oppressed for decades will lash out violently. It’s actually understandable if you see the world in more than black and white.
Comparing it to 9/11 is apples and oranges. Apartheid is one of the worst types of discrimination. If you can’t see that the victims of apartheid are going to resort to violence then I don’t think we’re ever gonna see eye to eye.
What’s crazy to me is that you seem to acknowledge that Israel is committing these crimes against humanity yet you still fail to see how that’s fueling the violence
What's crazy to me is people embracing terrorism. And hypocritically so, as the US has engaged in plenty of reprehensible actions that could be used to justify 9/11.
The victims of 9/11 aren't likely to be the perpetrators of those reprehensible actions, however. Just like the victims of October the 7th aren't the perpetrators of the nakba.
Violence aimed at civilians is never OK. That's not "seeing things in black and white", it's "not being an extremist".
Even a cause you believe is noble doesn't justify murder.
I wish your generation grew up on Star Trek: TNG, rather than Tiktok.
The side that has killed tens of thousands of children, on purpose. Is guilty of apartheid as per the World Court, and has been stealing land for 58 straight years, are not the bad guys?
Consider this. Russia are the bad guys right? Israel has killed 6 times more children than Russia
“According to Australian human rights lawyer, Chris Sidoti, ‘the number of children killed is the greatest number of any conflict in this century’ in addition to the many children ‘wounded and affected by deaths of parents, siblings, grandparents, loss of limbs, traumatizing experiences, multiple displacement from their homes...affecting a larger number of children than any modern warfare has experienced.’”
Israel is significantly worse than even Putin, consider that. You are on the wrong side of history, I promise you.
I agree that all of that is bad and needs to stop but that doesn't justify taking innocent people hostage. I'm just not the kind of person that would ever condone violence against innocent people no matter the justifications.
As I've said America has committed the same kind of genocide against native Americans and they could come lay vengeance upon you and your loved ones in much the same way you feel all Israelis deserve. The sin of living on stolen land was all the people of Oct 7th committed, many peace activist that worked on the border. They didn't bulldoze Palestinian homes. Neither did the family dogs they shot or the Thai workers they hacked to bits with a rusty hoe, or the festival goers who were gunned down at a peace rave. If that's what you call justified defense then you are no better than them.
If you really are American I'm glad you've at least made it known you support Hamas’s "defense" of Palenstine. Easier for them to keep tabs on yall.
Bro they were literally egypt if you look back far enough. Or do you think land claims only apply to narrow periods that make you right? I steal your wallet, someone steals it from me, I can demand it back because if we ignore the time I stole it from you then it's legitimately my wallet.
We're not talking about individuals, we're talking about governments.
If North Korea decided that South Korea was an "occupier", does that mean it's totally ok for them to kill South Koreans and expect they won't defend themselves?
Every single country in the world would've defended itself after October the 7th, and no amount of "but 1948!" will change that. Nobody's going to let themselves get killed because their ancestors did something wrong to someone that might or might not be the ancestor of the assassin.
Israel shouldn't have been created, but now it exists. Generations have lived their whole lives there. You're not talking about removing colonists by now, you're talking about removing natives.
(and even if it was about removing colonists, violence against civilians would still not be the way to go about it - but I'll save the "ends don't justify the means" lesson for later, don't want to risk overloading you)
Genuinely, when you say the ICJ deemed it an apartheid are you referring to the article 3 ruling or was there a more recent one?
Article 3 isn’t the same as apartheid. For example, all apartheid is a breach of article 3 but not all breaches of article 3 amount to apartheid or even segregation.
Yeah I’m fairly certain that’s just a possible interpretation of the findings as article 3 of CERN means that apartheid might be taking place as a breaching of article 3 is a criteria for apartheid.
Here’s the transcript of the findings from the ICJ website
https://www.icj-cij.org/node/204176
If you (control + f) for apartheid you’ll find that it’s only mentioned in closing statements after the findings are made with some of the individual judges stating that the findings here amount to apartheid while others disagree. They haven’t actually voted on it as a court or found there to be apartheid present as a court. Yet.
This doesn’t mean there isn’t apartheid either though. They just haven’t investigated and decided as a court whether there is or not.
Why would you only check the summary and not the entire advisory opinion? The only ones not interpreting it to mean that Israel is guilty of apartheid are pro-Israel apartheid apologists
“The Court added that Israel’s legislation and measures violate the international prohibition on racial segregation and apartheid.”
From the link I posted above by Human Rights Watch:
“In a historic ruling the International Court of Justice has found multiple and serious international law violations by Israel towards Palestinians in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including, for the first time, finding Israel responsible for apartheid. The court has placed responsibility with all states and the United Nations to end these violations of international law. The ruling should be yet another wake up call for the United States to end its egregious policy of defending Israel’s oppression of Palestinians and prompt a thorough reassessment in other countries as well.”
Yes. It’s referring to article 3 of CERD where it says it ‘violates the international prohibition on racial segregation and apartheid’. That is literally part of the definition of CERD article 3.
As I stated previously, this doesn’t necessarily mean that apartheid or segregation is taking place. What it means is that there are individual racially discriminatory practices going on that would not look unfamiliar in an apartheid or segregation environment but the scale or scope of them need to be assessed if it is segregation or apartheid or neither.
I thought this would be apparent as the ruling just states it violates article 3 of CERD without mentioning what part is violated. Even if you thought that a breach of article 3 had to be either segregation or apartheid or both the ruling doesn’t specify which one.
The full ruling you linked backs up my argument between paragraphs 223 and 229.
Even more, if they had found apartheid they would have used either the Rome Statute of the ICC or the International Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the Crime of Apartheid and not article 3 of CERD.
“Though the court’s language is a compromise, limited to separation, the finding means that Israel is responsible for apartheid. Several judges, including Judge Nawaf Salam, the court’s president, and Judge Dire Tladi, a South African, made this clear in their separate declarations. Two of the ICJ’s 15 judges disagreed and said the court should not find apartheid. One of these, Judge Georg Nolte, asserted a standard of intent for apartheid that would be nearly impossible to prove, and said the court should not find racial segregation either.“
That’s not the finding of the court though. That’s two judges whose opinions are that it is apartheid (one of whom is the president). Then two other judges stated their opinions that it isn’t apartheid (one of whom disagreed with the CERD ruling). None of this is in the full opinion of the court (that you linked) though as these are individual opinions and not part of the rulings. And it’s also an opinion in the latest article you linked.
I do admit that the wording is a bit awkward but again, they don’t specify what part of CERD article 3 is violated, they don’t use any of the conventional definitions for apartheid and more importantly, they weren’t even investigating it.
In the link I shared, it mentions that the president shares additional views that in his opinion are relevant to the conclusions of the court. Again these opinions are missing from the full transcript you linked and so are ultimately irrelevant to the findings.
If it were clear, there would either have been a vote on it or they’d have used one of the definitions.
Where’s Palestine on the historical map again? Who was their founder? Where’s their capital? I don’t remember learning about any Palestine governed by Palestinians in history.
Yes, because Gaza was supposed to be the example of Palestinian self determination. How can you defend Palestine as a state without realizing only one part is a part to the UN and the other ripped up all the existing deals. It’s totally pertinent, how do you think it’s not?
Except for the fact that Israel ceded all control of Gaza in 2005. Palestinians had free and fair elections. Israel built more barriers in response to the actions of Hamas. You’re ignoring a lot of context.
You’re spreading misinformation and obvious propaganda.
If they ceded all control then how come Gazans weren’t even allowed to visit their loved ones in other parts of Palestine? How come they couldn’t fish in their own waters or fly on a plane to Istanbul for vacation? How come their drinking water was being controlled by Israel?
They built a fence around their open air prison and wouldn’t let them leave, how exactly is that freedom?
lol read more into their water. They over drilled against international experts advice, didn’t spend on infrastructure, siphoned donated marerials; opting for weapons and tunnels instead. They can fish in their own waters, they’re geographically surrounded by Israel and Egypt, their territorial waters are small because of the location. Same reason they can’t fish in Egyptian waters.
Do people need these arbitrary things to deserve rights and recognition? The native populations of the Americas and Australia didn't have what I think we'd call a capital, a 'founder' or were found on maps.
Secondly, there’s nothing arbitrary about those things. Who’s the government of Palestine? There isn’t one, there’s 2 and one nullified all international treaties and has done nothing to become part of the international community. Those are pretty big pieces of becoming a state.
lol look at the surrounding countries. are there Palestinians in Egypt? Syria? Lebanon? Yes. So why do they need another country? Some of those countries were created by the same process as Israel are they illegitimate stolen land states too?
A little known guy Amin Al huseini, who personally visited concentration camps and still was against letting Jewish refugees in, is at the root of Palestinian movement
Lmao, the guy who went to Hitler for help with his Jew problems? You’re really funny, he wasn’t the elected official of anything. He murdered tons of innocent people though.
He went to Hitler to ask for help killing Jews that’s all people need to know. He started multiple riots with his rhetoric that caused the death of innocent Jews, he fled and hid multiple times instead of facing the consequences. Seems like not too much has changed.
Disgusting bloodthirsty barbaric terrorists come off better than the Israeli Leadership. Killing more babies will definitely keep things safe for Israelis.
Another North American talking shit from the other side of the globe cheering on death and destruction. Always hilarious to see.
I don't know what excuse hamas uses to justify the things they do. I only hope, like the person above me, that they release the hostages soon so that there is less innocent suffering from civilians and needless death.
I know Israel really fucked up because the only possible way those hostages could be released is by Israel sticking to phase 2. Hamas couldn't possibly just let them go home. Why? Well because they can only go home if Israel agrees to phase 2 and Israel isn't so it's their fault the hostages cant go home.
You may have a baby brained way of thinking about international conflict. Unfortunately for the hostage families the Israel states is aligned with how you think.
That's easy to answer. No, I do not think Israel should kill any babies. I'm not for innocents dying, regardless of what country they are from. I'm not for Israel dropping bombs indiscriminately on Palestinian civilians. I'm against Israel taking Palestinian land.
Do you think hamas should release the hostages or do you think hamas should hold them longer?
Excellent, so get on the phone and tell your reprasentatives to get netanyahu to stop sabotaging every hostage deal and also maybe stop annexing palestinian land and kidnapping palestinian kids.
Its been going on for decades, I’m sure everyone would be in a much better position of Israel starts treating innocent palestinians as people and not as human shields for their genocide.
>I think people be hostages anywhere, it’s netanyahu who doesn’t seem to agree.
I'm trying to follow you here. Do you mean that netanyahu needs to meet hama's demands or do you mean Hamas should release the hostages regardless of what happens?
Netanyahu has already done several hostage exchanges with hamas. In fact it is with those exchanges where the most amount of hostages were freed… so him stopping the agreement and ending the ceasefire is him gambling with the lives of these hostages.
Hamas aren’t the ones claiming to be the most moral
Army in the world, or the only democracy in the middle east.
Hamas are bloodthirsty terrorists, and yet it’s Israel that seems to behave more like the terrorists as they excuse the deaths of countless children and innocents.
What you fail to understand is that the onus is on Israeli government as the actual ‘civilized’ party here, and they have already successfully implemented many exchanges, so renegging to be able to cause more death and destruction only serves his own interests to stay in power.
As someone who wants the hostages to return, you don’t seem to actually understand how that happens, and killing more babies isn’t going to bring them back.
Just as a reminder, this man is actively sabotaging every deal to murder more people and keep the conflict hot so he can go on forever.
Wow that's all good information. Thanks for informing me. Do you think Hamas should release the hostages or do you think Israel should meet hama's demands first?
But again, something tells me you don’t care. In any case, nobody buys the bullshit you sell, everyone sees through the lies and those who perpetuate them.
Steering the conversation from the facts? I'm just asking you whether or not you think hamas should release the hostages or do you think Israel should meet hama's demands first?
I love npr, thanks! I was wondering about your thoughts though. Do you think Hamas should release the hostages or do you think Israel should meet hama's demands first?
Israel already met Hamas’ deal before Netanyahu and his cabinet sabotaged it. I want him to honour the deal and get everyone out as well as stop bombing babies.
Not pull out and pretend the ceasfire was violated by hamas.
You know… the exact same thing I’ve neen saying for every one of my messages and linking you news articles on how it went down.
Again, there is only one way we can guarantee that no more innocents die on either side, why are you pretending its unerasonable all of a sudden?
You keep saying you have been saying the same thing but when I ask for clarity i'm met with contradictory statements like this "Israel already met Hamas’ deal, I want him to honour the deal " Did he already met hamas deal or did he not honor it?
Let's make this easy. I still don't know if you support hamas immediately releasing the hostages or them waiting for some kind of concessions from Israel so out of these two statements which one do you agree with A. or B.
A. I think hamas should release the hostages immediately
B. I think hamas should not release the hostages until Israel agrees to it's demands.
This should not be that hard. Here i'll go first. I agree with option A.
Please stop trying to debate lord your way out of this. It’s really pointless.
Once again, what I or you think is irrelevant. A deal was reached and then promptly breached by Netanyahu and innocent people are being killed/ will be killed and the hostages lives aren’t any better.
You say you don’t want people to die but are painting the entire incident in a way that absolves Israeli crimes and murder and trying to steer the conversation will not change this.
Again, if you do care, tell your representatives and tell Trump to reel netanyahu in. But I’m guessing you support both from all of your posts so let’s just agree that you aren’t acting in the best of faith and are indifferent to the pain and suffering of those that aren’t you.
It's easy for me because I don't mind people thinking I want hamas to release the hostages without Israel making any kind of further deals. I guess if I thought Israel needed to meet hamas demands first I'd be deflecting as much as you.
Do you really think Israel is going to stop the massacre just because Hamas release the hostages? Israel was the one killing peace talks that would had brought them home while bombing the area those hostages were in. One hostage even said she was more afraid of Israeli bombs than she was Hamas.
If Hamas did release the hostages, Israel would come up with another bullshit excuse to continue the slaughter. These past 15 months have shown just how moral depraved and barbaric the IDF and Israeli government truly are
The worst part is, it shouldn't only be about the children. According to the IDF there are/were 30-40k Hamas soldiers.
That means 98%+ of people in Gaza are innocent - including men, women AND children.
Yet the fact we have to continuously point to "children" and STILL have to hear about dumbfuck statements like "FAFO" is unimaginable in any other scenario.
These fucked up lunatics have no morality or soul left, they think everything can just be waved away "because".
Have you ever looked into it or are you just parroting hasbara? Much (if not most) of it was organized and facilitated by Israel, they even committed terrorism to cause jews to flee other countries for Israel. Some countries even attempted to prevent its jewish population from leaving.
The expulsions of jews started in MENA countries almost immediately after the brits left the Mandate. Are you suggesting that those were instigated by Israel? And if those weren't, what was so different about later ones?
No that's just a categorically false statement. To get back to the original claim, none of this is considered a genocide in any meaningful sense by anyone besides Israeli propagandists who trot it out from time to time in an attempt to justify their own ethnic cleansing of Palestine. And none of them actually make the case for rhe jewish right of return to their countries of origin post the establishment of Israel because that would legitimize Palestinian right of return to their homes in what is now Israel.
Because "the right of return" is inherently a stupid idea to begin with? "Palestinians" are probably the only people among every displaced group that demand it. Others have moved on and look towards the future instead of clinging to some imagined past.
Funny you should mention that since that's literally the foundation for Israel's own law of return.
I suppose living in your own imaginary reality is a requirement for holding such blatantly contradictory ideas, I expect you might run the risk if an aneurysm from the cognitive dissonance otherwise.
What Palestinians argue for isn't the same thing. They want Israel to cede territories and jews to flee those territories or die. Israel just has a specific immigration policy, which isn't unusual. Equivalent would be for Germany to demand territories back from Poland or Poland to demand land back from Belarus and Ukraine. Before the 7/11, pretty much any "Palestinian" that wanted to could get a work visa and start living in Israel, with a possible path to become an Israeli citizen later. But they don't want to just return. They want Israel gone.
Bro you're literally just making this up as you go along because you have absolutely no legs to stand on. What you lay out here is pure fucking fiction.
Israel has been breaking international law for 58 straight years, you clearly don’t know the “rules” or you only, hypocritically, apply them to one side
But you talked about taking hostages as being against international law and use it to justify the murder of children, so I’m a little confused since the children didn’t take any hostages.
None, there is no justification for murdering innocent children, whether they're Palestinian or Israeli. And you don't stop the murdering of innocent children by murdering innocent children.
Because Hamas is not a good organization, it’s even a terror organization, so they want to scare Israelis into compliance by bombing civilians.
The children can’t choose to be a human shield, the IDF chooses to kill them because they think the end justifies the means, and they ask the rest of the world to take their word for it that there really were Hamas operatives behind every dead child and that they had no choice.
I didn’t say nobody forced Hamas to take cover behind civilians, I just said that doesn’t justify the killing of children. There are simply too many children who have died for me to believe that there was a Hamas fighter behind every single one of them, or even the majority of them, and Israel doesn’t want to share the intel to put that skepticism to rest.
International law states that the presence of civilians does not prevent a location from being a valid military target. The burden is on Hamas to not use human shields.
We have no idea if the IDF had intel that there were any Hamas fighters at the sites full of children. International law states you can’t punish civilians for being in the vicinity of military targets, that’s called ”collective punishment”. The burden is actually on Israel to reduce the amount of civilian casualties when they invade a territory, and this prove they had no other choice than blowing up a school or hospital full of kids.
But we have to take the IDF’s word that the hospitals and schools are military targets because they refuse to share the intel. Why should I believe them? Because if they’re not, attacking the hospitals and schools full of kids is a war crime.
But that doesn’t mean that every hospital and school has Hamas in them, so why should I trust the IDF when they say that there was Hamas in every school and hospital they bombed when they refuse to share their intel with the international community? I mean, the IDF used an ambulance to raid the West Bank, by that logic every single ambulance in all of Israel is a valid military target.
You can continue denying reality but, again, there’s video evidence of Hamas operating out of/near hospitals, schools, UN offices, residential buildings, etc.
I’m not denying that Hamas has operated out of civilian buildings, but why should we believe that every single hospital and school IDF has demolished had any sort of intel or evidence backing it up as a military target when Israel refuses to share it?
What definition are you using where a vehicle transporting military personell during a military operation is not a military target? The Geneva convention gives troop transports as an example of a military target, and a vehicle transporting troops to a military operation is the literal definition of a troop transport.
Again, this angle doesn't work because the side you sympathize with and minimize actions for intentionally conducts military operations wearing civilian clothing to blend in with their own civilian population.
If you cared about any of it, you would have criticized it before.
I don’t sympathize with Hamas, they’re a terrorist organization.
You say that because Hamas has used hospitals as bases, one can just bomb any hospital in Gaza and reasonably assume it was a Hamas base. I say that by your logic, one can bomb any ambulance in Israel and reasonably assume it was an Israeli troop transport since the IDF has used ambulances as troop transports, and troop transports are valid military targets.
I think it’s ludicrous to generalize in either case and that one needs very strong evidence before attacking a target likely to be full of civilians.
I have a genuine question. You basically acknowledged here that Israel is murdering children.
Israel is a state and supposed to be the good guy. Hamas is a terrorist organization.
Since when do we expect terrorist to play by the rules and be ethically correct ?
But wanna know what we always expect ? From the „most moral army in the world“ to be morally correct and not starve children and beating pregnant women. Let alone shoot kids in the head.
Yes you are confused. I was responding to the user who said only Israel is breaking international law. The truth is hamas has committed every war crime in the book and Palestine has been breaking international law since before Israel was a country
No argument there, but that doesn’t mean that Israel is not responsible for the children they’ve killed in civilian hospitals and schools. They refuse to share any intel or proof with the international community that indicates these hospitals and schools were anything but civilian.
Okay,so the ICJ said that the hostages need to be returned without conditions and has also said that Israel has to remove their settlers from the occupied territories completely and pay reparations.
Israel refuses to do the latter, why would Hamas do the former? Do you think that maybe Hamas kidnapped them because Israel won’t end their 58 year long illegal occupation?
Maybe this somehow hasn’t sunk in for you yet, so I’ll reiterate:
Israel has been stealing land for 58 straight years, and discriminates so harshly against Palestinians that they’ve been ruled guilty of apartheid by The World Court.
All of the violence is their fault, they are the oppressors.
Maybe this hasnt sunk in but palestine has been breaking international law for longer than 58 years dopey. I dont know why you think you udnerstand law you thought TAKING HOSTAGES was legal lol. And then when proven wrong you just doubled down
So Israel has a right to defend themselves but Palestinians don’t have a right to defend themselves from apartheid and land theft?
My only question to you is, do you acknowledge that Israel has been stealing land for 58 straight years? And if so, how can you see them as the victims?
Defend themselves? Yes. Attack random civilians? No.
The Israeli occupation of Palestine is indeed a crime. But let’s not act like terrorism and violence is the answer.
Ghandi, MLK, Nelson Mandela. They achieved their goals through non-violent civil disobedience. That is the opposite of what is happening now…
I can acknowledge the Israeli occupation in Palestine needs to end. Can you acknowledge that this recent violence wouldn’t be taking place without the civilian attacks on October 7, and that the best way to create a free Palestine is through non-violence?
I mean, Hamas is literally an authoritarian, fundamentalist, terrorist organization. They won the election to gain control of Gazan politics in 2005, then cancelled all future elections. If you were Israeli, that isn’t the group you would want to negotiate with for a free Palestine. You have to look at it from both sides.
Bro seriously stf lol. You support taking hostages buddy youre not entitled to ask questions. This war is still going on specifically because people like you refuse to hold palestinians accountable for their crimes agaiant humanity and violation of international law. You will sacrifice every last palestinian child to continue your war against Israel
Oh dear better call the international police, ya know, right after you deal with why all the jews "decided to leave" the rest of the middle east. Ya know, that genocide...
Everyone Israel has killed in this conflict was wearing the HAMAS battle uniform. What else are they supposed to do when someone's eawring the uniform of a government that has declared war on them?
I'm also so amused by hindutivas who, through shared hatred of Muslims, align themselves closely with ultra far right wing Israeli. I will kindly remind you that far right Israelis do not like you, and in fact, are some of the most racist people around. They see our brown skin and think of dirt. They are not your friends. Stop lapping them up like a dog.
Plenty of German civilians were captured and hurt by the Polish and Czech resistance. Nazi Germany used those stories to justify the continuation of the war, total control of Eastern Europe was seen as the only solution to it.
I'm pretty sure polish resistance didn't waste resources on kidnapping random germans. German "retaliatoriations" were something like 100 dead poles for every german, so the underground government was almost always precise. Hamas took random civilians from a concert.
They didn’t kidnap random Germans, but people who were related to German officers were sometimes targeted. Civilians none the less. And German civilians were sometimes collateral damage during bombings, such as in September 15 1939 when a Czech group put bombs outside a police station and the ministry of aeronautics.
A civilian is a non-combatant in this definition, it doesn’t matter if they’re visiting a concert.
Sounds like you support that too, since giving up the hostages ends the killing of children in this war. I don't know why you want more Palestinian deaths, but you do you....
I've never gotten tens of thousands of my people killed because I wanted to keep hostages in my terror tunnels. I guess it's a different type of regard in gaza...
Freeing the hostages wouldn't have kept Israel from attacking again. If it would have, Israel would have agreed to phase 2, the hostages would be free, and there would be a permanent ceasefire.
Israel wanted the hostages back and the freedom to keep attacking, obviously.
Just so you know there hasn't been any evidence of Hamas or any Gaza military group doing this since 2015.
That's like saying milk is bad for you because 10 years ago this was bad milk going around at the time.
It's fine to be skeptical of the milk, but you can't trust a decade old story to still hold any say for the modern time.
Because remember, Israel said they were using schools and hospitals as military targets, and when asked for proof they planted evidence, or tried to use a video showing off a swedish bunker as proof. Don't know about you but swedish and Arabic doesn't really look the same. Or they use a nearly decade old Lebanese film as evidence. Because no one in the world would've seen that film.
Even if there was an actual genocide and colialism taking place, the tactics chosen by Hamas are contrproductive. Kidnapping, raping, and killing random civilians doesn't do anything for the "liberation" of Palestine
Translation: "You're not allowed to fight the people of a country that attacks you, only its soldiers. However since its soldiers are mixed with its people, lol u can't attack lol"
Nah. As I put it, "Everyone Israel has killed has been waering the HAMAS battle uniform, which means all of their actions are in compliance with international law."
Oh everyone Israel killed? Including over 16 thousand children? Including babies in incubators? Including doctors and paramedics? Including international aid workers? Yeah, all of them deserved to be starved and blown up and having their water sources destroyed.
Your point is that Hamas fighters aren't wearing military uniforms that distinguish them from everyone else and are saying "everyone is wearing that uniform." You're justifying baby murder by saying "everyone." See the problem there?
Yes. International law and the Geneva convention say that you must protect the lives of civilians no matter what happens. It doesn't matter if you're invading or responding or whatever. You have to avoid destroying places like hospitals.
Oh and just so you know, Israel has been invading Palestine from the moment it was created. They keep building illegal settlements on Palestinian lands, and the wall that isolates Gaza is built on Palestinian lands and it occupies a significant chunk of the sector. So no, the Palestinians were the ones defending themselves here not the other way around. Like how do you invade someone's house then shoot them in self defense?
You don't know what international law is.
You don't know what the geneva convention is.
You're literally arguing that using your own children as human shields should be a rewarded tactic in warfare "under the rules."
It's absolutely sickening watching people make up stories to justify the bombing of hospitals and schools. Iraq did something similar to the Kurds in 2003 and America flattened it, now you just roll over. Pathetic country.
Since the international law is merely a suggestion, and the only real law is the rule of the stronger, they'll accomplish whichever they want, whenever they want.
They're waiting to save their PR, which is even more disrespectful and cruel imho. Imagine knowing that the only reason you live is because it's not good for the optics to kill you right away.
Ahhh, so once the new US and Europe have reached peak fascism, Israel will just dispose of all Palestinians? That's quite a prediction! I guess we'll have to wait and see. Thanks crazy person!!
What the fuck does Hamas have to do with the West Bank? If anything, Fatah/West Bank would have had a right of military action against Israel. Israel has been out of Gaza for many years and didn't do shit despite being shelled with rockets all the time since they left Gaza.
There was no reason, no justification for Oct 7th - and that is why Israel reacted the way it did.
Oh man, is Gaza entirely populated by children or something?
You should be mad at Hamas for dragging Gaza into a war they had no chance at even surviving, especially when they use civilian infrastructure like schools and hospitals as military bases.
Urban warfare has never been good for reducing collateral damage even when your own government is not actively using you as a meat shield.
Nice to see how you didn't acknowledge anything I said, just cling on to the assumption that apparently all of Gaza's population is comprised by children. Actual news don't make such claims, so I suggest you start researching what you're spewing before thinking to use moral outrage in a debate.
And really, lumping in collateral damage with war crimes is about the most immature thing ever- did you seriously expect that war would be a clean affair or something? Maybe Hamas shouldn't killed hundreds of thousands while kidnapping any survivor to use as a bargaining chip against a clearly superior enemy.
Wanna blame someone? Blame Gaza's government for placing their mass-murdering campaign over the lives of its people, which they're on record saying is not their job to take care of.
Oh, going straight to the insults rather than bothering to refute anything I said? That's fine, won't change reality either way.
Only 5% or so of Gaza's population has died thus far, and a third of those casualties are Hamas combatants the Gazan Health Ministry conflated with actual civilian deaths whether they were collateral damage or killed by Hamas itself. So much for genocide when the superior army has failed to kill even half the population.
Knocking off the board and claiming you won the game is not really the same as actually winning.
I could call you a dodo and you wouldn't be one. Should've expected that someone from Ireland would jump straight to the wrong take when it came to this subject. Y'all like to support the side that started this for whatever reason.
I'm sorry you support crimes against humanity and can't distinguish between war crimes and "collateral damage" (a disgusting, dehumanising phrase imo).
That's why the ICC has issued arrest warrants for war crimes.
I won't be engaging with you further as I find your position abhorrent and morally bankrupt.
Are you really that emotional that the idea people can and have died to being caught in the crossfire of a war is that unbearable to you?
Blame it on Gaza's government for using civilian infrastructure as bases and weapons warehouses regardless of the danger it ultimately poses for noncombatants. That's the real war crime your stubborn ass should be raging about.
Using places like schools, neighborhoods and hospitals for military purposes voids their special status according to international law, but that's clearly never stopped Hamas from doing so anyways.
43% of the population of Palestine is considered children (47% just in Gaza alone).
You do know Hamas were voted into power in 2007 right? The reason was because of the uselessness of the PA which were only interested in corruption. And Israel decided to not only continue but escalate the blockade.
All this information is freely available at your finger tips, try utilizing it.
43% of the population of Palestine is considered children (47% just in Gaza alone).
Man, the Pay to Slay thing is that good they've already exhausted their entire adult population by sending them to become martyrs? You should probably be protesting them for fostering a culture were getting yourself killed in a jihad against Israel is considered one's highest calling (And that's not my opinion, I just literally quoted a Hamas leader after one of his son's died just like that).
You do know Hamas were voted into power in 2007 right? The reason was because of the uselessness of the PA which were only interested in corruption.
"It was in January 2006 that the Palestinian territories held what turned out to be their last parliamentary elections. Hamas won a bare plurality of votes (44 percent to the more moderate Fatah party’s 41 percent) but, given the electoral system, a strong majority of seats (74 to 45). Neither party was keen on sharing power. Fighting broke out between the two. When a unity government was finally formed in June 2007, Hamas broke the deal, started murdering Fatah members, and, in the end, took total control of the Gaza Strip. Those who weren’t killed fled to the West Bank, and the territories have remained split ever since."
This is from a Slate article. Now, while it turns out we both were wrong on when they won the election (But I was closer than you), the fact remains that their first executive order was betraying their political rivals after claiming they'd work together and murdering almost every single one of them.
As for Fatah being corrupt... Well, they are the PLO's political wing, did you expect anything less from the people who were committing all sorts of terrorist acts before Hamas became relevant? The only real difference between them is that Hamas somehow surpassed them when it came to extremism. They're both corrupt, fanatical mass-murdering cults at any rate.
And Israel decided to not only continue but escalate the blockade.
Did you forget that they've been trying to kill Israelis nonstop even after they left Gaza and never returned? You say it as though the blockade was completely unprovoked- if so, go complain about Egypt because they're also blockading Gaza for the exact same reasons.
All this information is freely available at your finger tips, try utilizing it.
Pay to slay? I don't even know what you're talking about and how it relates to 20,000+ children being killed (that we know of so far). If you intend to say nonsensical things, let me know so I can just ignore anything else afterwards.
You're speaking like someone who isn't bothered by pictures and videos of kids burned to the point of being unrecognizable or with limbs blown off - or someone who hasn't seen them. No well adjusted human being would take such a laissez-faire attitude otherwise, so I'd like to give you the benefit of doubt, for now anyway.
You're speaking about Hamas-PLO as if it's a straightforward issue. They both tried to take power and that old fart Abbas (considered a leader by no one, even in Palestine) tried to form his own security force before Hamas did the same. Not to mention that according to wiki - the PA tried to work with the Brits to "degrade the capabilities" of Hamas since it rejected Israeli statehood.
Abbas thought he would easily win out because the "international community" was giving him their backing while putting sanctions on Hamas - in the end he ended up staying useless. He still somehow thinks he'll be granted power, he won't.
As for Israel leaving Gaza - they left (physically) but never actually ceded control - "Israel controls virtually every aspect of life in Gaza. Israel maintains control of Gaza’s airspace, its territorial waters, no-go zones within the strip and even the population registry".
There are also other reasons, as in intending to indefinitely stall any future peace plans + the fact the Israeli populace didn't want to have Hamas continue their suicide and other attacks (which Hamas declared they would be stopping in 2006).
Pay to slay? I don't even know what you're talking about and how it relates to 20,000+ children being killed (that we know of so far). If you intend to say nonsensical things, let me know so I can just ignore anything else afterwards.
You didn't know about the Martyr's Fund? Well, look it up. The West Bank's government literally gives stipends to the families of people who've clashed with Israel and paid for it in some way- which is to say that if you were arrested for ramming your car against a group of Israelis or got shot in the process of being arrested for stabbing someone to death, the PLO will compensate your family for it. Martyrdom worship is big among Palestinians, though you only get paid in the West Bank for dying in the name of the case; Gazans are fanatical enough to do it for free.
Did you honestly think that the fanaticism is exclusive to just their government? Nah, mate, this is a societal problem. There are videos of civilians celebrating while the corpses of those murdered by Hamas were paraded around Gaza's streets, in case you thought otherwise. About the most Palestinians have come to reject this unending refusal to move on and just mind their own business is that a recent poll showed people didn't like how October 7th backfired so badly on them.
You're speaking like someone who isn't bothered by pictures and videos of kids burned to the point of being unrecognizable or with limbs blown off - or someone who hasn't seen them. No well adjusted human being would take such a laissez-faire attitude otherwise, so I'd like to give you the benefit of doubt, for now anyway.
Oh, I am. It's just that I know Hamas is to blame for knowingly instigating an armed conflict they had no chance of even surviving by massacring countless innocents, aware that their civilian population would bear the brunt of it and actively looking forward to it just so Israel would face backlash over the inevitable collateral damage- because that's what it is, collateral damage. Urban warfare is not really for minimizing the number of people caught in the crossfire, especially when their own military makes a point of using places like hospitals and schools as bases/warehouses/hideouts while not wearing any sort of identifying uniform to set them apart from civilians (Did you that the Gazan Health Ministry, which is run by Hamas, doesn't make a difference between dead combatants and ACTUAL civilians?).
Abbas thought he would easily win out because the "international community" was giving him their backing while putting sanctions on Hamas - in the end he ended up staying useless. He still somehow thinks he'll be granted power, he won't.
Are you really surprised that people preferred the lesser of two evils? Consider how Sinwar went on to start this entire mess in October 7th and think of how, while useless and evil, he most likely wouldn't been hell-bent on radicalizing the entire place because of how suicidal it would have been. The West Bank had its elections suspended indefinitely because Fatah knew that allowing people to vote for Hamas, who are very much present in there and receive plenty of support by Palestinians due to their more proactive beliefs (They like them because they are more extreme than even the PLO), could only end up with the West Bank turned into a second Gaza Strip.
As for Israel leaving Gaza - they left (physically) but never actually ceded control - "Israel controls virtually every aspect of life in Gaza. Israel maintains control of Gaza’s airspace, its territorial waters, no-go zones within the strip and even the population registry".
Because, on top of the fact Hamas is on record saying that taking care of Gaza's basic necessities like running water and its electric grid is NOT their responsibility, leaving it wholly unregulated will only result in more attacks coming out of it and more things being smuggled into the place. October 7th only proved exactly why Israel does all of that, and it was only the latest such attack from Gaza over the course of 20 years.
There are also other reasons, as in intending to indefinitely stall any future peace plans + the fact the Israeli populace didn't want to have Hamas continue their suicide and other attacks (which Hamas declared they would be stopping in 2006).
Israel WAS open to peace plans before, but the continued attack (Which I'm surprised you even acknowledged) and all those broken ceasefires kind of made them cynical about thinking that Palestinians would ever want coexistence. That they never actually stopped their damn jihad after 2006 was their first clue- there is a reason why Israel even needs the Iron Dome.
Oh look, suddenly there is no reason or justification for murdering women and children.
Well, Hamas waged war against Israel, not the other way around. The fact that they embedded themselves deep into civilian infrastructure (a war crime, by the way) is not Israel's fault either.
Yeah not in Gaza, just around it controlling all aspects of life in Gaza including control of rainwater that falls in Gaza, and what kind of chocolates are allowed in there and anyone exiting and entering having to wait hours every day at checkpoints.
Oh and except for everyone in Gaza having to register with the Israelis, getting rounded up whenever they want and getting arrested for posting a Palestinian flag in on social media.
Gosh, these darn civili- sorry, terrorists just trying to do day-to-day things and being alive? How dare they?!
Clearly you weren't paying attention when Gaza's own government said that taking care of basic necessities like water and electricity was not their responsibility, but Israel's and everyone else pitching in with the humanitarian aid (Which Hamas then pocketed to keep funding it senseless war and enrich their political party). They don't take care of that stuff because they really want to, otherwise they wouldn't have pulled out of Gaza like 20 years ago- the alternative would be completely letting Gazans to fend for themselves, y'know?
And those checkpoints? Well, that's what happens when you commit so many terrorist acts against neighbors- and I "neighbors" because Egypt subjects Gaza to the same kind of blockade given their ties to the Islamic Brotherhood, also known as the terrorist group that's been a colossal pain in the ass to Egypt and of which Hamas is an offshoot/ally. If you're gonna act like it is Israel's fault that they keep get attacked by Palestinians then you should think the same of Egypt... And probably Lebanon, since its opinion of Palestinians has been pretty much the same since the Black September civil war. Kuwait too, now that we're at it.
You didn't know why Palestinians in Gaza are subjected to such scrutiny and distrust? Well, there you have it. October 7th was just the latest incident proving that Gaza is offended by Israel's mere existence and how they refuse to let that slide.
Also Israel isn't a benevolent "provider" with altruistic dreams. It charged Hamas/PA three times the cost of fuel that Egypt used to charge. Oh, and it also conducted an airstrike on the lone power station in Gaza back in 2006 which reduced the power capability by half.
Israel prevents the repair and restoration of the power station it bombed in 2006, keeping it from operating at full capacity.
Israel compels Gaza residents to purchase Israeli fuel exclusively, and to so for the same price paid inside Israel. The immense disparity between the economy of the West Bank and Gaza Strip and Israel’s means that both the Palestinian authorities and Palestinian private individuals have difficulty meeting the cost and are unable to buy sufficient amounts of diesel.
Israel delays or prevents repairs to the power grid and imposes restrictions on bringing spare parts into Gaza. It also impedes repairs to Gaza infrastructure damaged in Israeli raids, as well as preventing upgrades to dated infrastructure.
Shouldn't the problem be that Gaza's own governing body would rather not do its job and just pocket the humanitarian aid to line their political branch's pockets while funding their holy war? It's crazy to me that Israel still has to foot the bill for a place they intended to leave two decades ago.
Because they gotta take care of not just their basic utilities, but also those of two other territories that actively try to kill them? Tell me if you'd feel benevolent by having to pay for everything your two abusive ex-spouses need even after you tried leaving them.
And last I heard Hamas had been the one to destroy everything Israel had built in Gaza after assuming power, even things like greenhouses, simply because they were of Israeli design. Not to mention this particular incident you mention was sparked because Hamas chose to kidnap a Corporal, which is kind of stupid since they depend on Israel to keep their lights on, AND the entire process to solve this situation was complicated because of a dispute between Hamas and the PLO.
This sounds like the consequences of their actions if you ask me. It's terrible that civilians have to put up with shit like that, but then they probably shouldn't have voted for Hamas to begin with.
I bet you think Israel planting bombs in pagers Isn’t a war crime?
Well, with the exception of a few bystanders everyone hit was a Hamas official and thus a legitimate target. Personally, I prefer this over flattening misappropriated civilian buildings in Gaza, but you do you.
With Gaza, not only is there no feasible way to wage an urban war that's free of collateral damage (Much like there is absolutely no way to wage war in such a way that only combatants will ever die) but let's not conveniently forget that Hamas works entirely from within civilian infrastructure.
This isn't that one Iron Man scene where he had a sci-fi targeting system that could only target obvious bad guys, what you're seeing is war not exactly being a clean and easy affair.
But you see, those reports are fake and those doctors aren't even real doctors /s
At least that's what I've heard and seen from the Israel side of the discourse when presented with the statements from these doctors as well as X-rays and all the other evidence.
The point isn't me justifying a terrorist attack, I never did. The point is to showcase how hypocrites you pro-Israelis are. You keep justifying inhumane treatments of Palestinian civilians and when you're faced with your own logic that would also justify October 7, you give us crocodile tears.
No, I got that you were trying to equate a deliberate act of terrorism with collateral damage in war (but just this one war, not any other). It's not an uncommon line from Hamas supporters.
The point isn't me justifying a terrorist attack, I never did
You did.
You keep justifying inhumane treatments of Palestinian civilians and when you're faced with your own logic that would also justify October 7, you give us crocodile tears.
I didn't do any such thing, I just objected to your justification of the murder of women and children.
By the way, I'm not "pro-Israeli", I'm anti-Hamas. You pro-Hamas types get confused about that.
Your division of Gaza and the West Bank into separate entities isn’t really one the Palestinian people share. Palestinians in Gaza view crimes against Palestinians in the West Bank as crimes against “them”.
You really haven't been paying much attention if you think that's the case.
Bro, Gazan Palestinian murdered representatives of the West Bank's government after winning the 2005 elections so that they'd have absolutely zero political rivals, and the West Bank suspended elections indefinitely because they didn't want their civilian population's support for Hamas and their even more extreme anti-Israel fanaticism to turn them into a second Gaza.
Dawg, Hamas has a well-known presence in the West Bank beyond just being supported by Palestinians there that the authorities are clearly against.
Not to say Fatah is any better, but Gazans see their West Bank unfavorably for not being as extreme as they are. See what this extremism has brought to Gaza, it's hard to disagree with Fatah for not allowing people to elect their own leaders.
If the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising had captured Wehrmacht soldiers along with some German settlers who had moved nearby, would you be blaming the Jewish resistance organizations? Insisting that the SS refuse to negotiate and continue with their campaign of wiping the ghetto from the face of the earth?
What if they had already made an agreement, promising to release the prisoners in waves in exchange for a cessation of hostilities? What if the Germans broke that agreement, and began bombing the shit out of the Jews held within the ghetto regardless, talking about how much they definitely care about rescuing the hostages being held as leverage by the resistance organizations in there? Would you believe them?
I hope all hostages are released as fast as possible, that was meant for Phase 2 of the ceasefire, but Satanyahu and his ghouls said there will be no lasting peace and phase 2,because the financeminister Smotrich threatened to destroy the coalition. So tell me why sabotage your ceasefire deal that guarantees all hostages to be released?
The IDF even recaptured hostages that they released in terms of the ceasefire agreement.
Ah yes, the genocide that has been taking over 50 years to be executed despite the perpetrator's overwhelming millitary superiority. Because genocidal powers are notorious for voluntarily withdrawing from their desired territory AFTER SUCCESFULY INVADING IT, then allowing the locals (who belong to the ethnicity the perpetrator wishes to genocide) to set up their own administration, and then only going back in after being attacked. And even after invading again, only killing a fraction of the people they apparently want to genocide.
Israel isn't measuring their combat goals to a high K/D ratio. They have successfully destroyed their three biggest rivals entire leadership structure. You want us to believe they got lucky they are blowing up kids and just got lucky they took out the entire leadership of Hamas and Hezbollah while aiming for the kids.
You either think Hamas is a righteous resistance group or you think it's a viable defense to attack your neighbor, take hostages and then hide yourselves around children.
If Israel didn't take out Sinwar, Haniyeh, Deif, Issa and Arouri, I might believe that they are being indiscriminate. If Israel didn't take out Nasrallah, Karaki, Safieddine, Kaquk, Aqil, Wahbi, and Shukr, I might believe there are being indiscriminate.
I'm upset at those dead kids too. I blame Hamas for every single death in Gaza. Maybe don't continuously start flights with people smarter, stronger and better equipped than you. Maybe fight in the fields instead of using civilian infrastructure to kill Israeli soldiers.
If you want less deaths, why aren't you mad at Hamas that was forcing everyone to not evacuate by gunpoint because they need the civilians to be their shields.
At the end of the day, nobody on your side learned a lesson. You all still think that violence is the answer and going to bring about a single state solution. You take zero responsibility for the extreme degradation of Gaza and instead are happy that those people lost their homes. To you, it helps win a political argument. You didn't lose shit. You're living in the western world - and you're comfortable fighting to the last Palestinian in a war they can't win. Don't act like you're on some pedestal. From your own mouth, you aren't trying to change minds. You're just here for the violence.
They literally took out Sinwar by pure chance of running into him. Haniyeh was killed in Iran not even Gaza. Arouri was killed in Lebanon not even Gaza. So your only points are Deif and Issa.
If you really believe Israel isn't doing a genocide, then why is Israel:
1: Not allowing anesthesia to enter Gaza? This is even more inexcusable than blockading food, cuz at least in theory Al Qassam *could* feed themselves with that food too, but they have no use for anesthesia. It's very obvious that their goal is for the people of Gaza to feel pain and they don't want to give them even the relief of anesthesia!
2: Why does Israel prevent medical evacuations from Gaza? When a Hezb rocket resulted in the accidental killing of 12 occupied-Syrian-Druze kids from the Golan Heights (whether it was an errant iron dome missile as a result of the Hezb rocket or the rocket itself isn't that relevant), Israel cancelled the permits of 2000 gazan children to exit Gaza through Kerem Shalom crossing for medical treatment in UAE. Tens of thousands more never even got a permit to be cancelled in the first place, and were just sentenced to a slow death.
3: Why does Israel not occupy hospitals after raiding them on the suspicion of Al Qassam presence, so that civilians can still use the hospitals without Al Qassam supposedly returning, but they immediately leave after raiding? Then two months later they raid the same hospital, it gets more damaged, then instead of staying they leave? They they raid again & leave & raid & leave & raid & leave until there's nothing left except smoldering smithereens?? It's obvious that there is no significant al qassam presence in Gaza's hospitals, and Israel just wants to destroy the hospitals bit-by-bit instead of all-at-once since that'd be too obvious.
To add to your points, why does Israel even have the ability to cancel "permits" for residents of Gaza?
They whined and complained about UNRWA even though UNRWA provides a list of ALL employees that Israel combs through before okay-ing, yet suddenly the Israeli government "missed" the allegedly "hundreds and thousands" of employees linked with Hamas.
And lest we forget their blatant horrifying use of AI in Lavender and Daddy's home where they killed entire families to target low level Hamas members.
I'm so tired of this bullshit from Zionists or apologists or bots repeating old shit that everyone can easily disprove.
Those assassinations show they very much are being indiscriminate. They *could* take out the specific people, but they aren't, they're killing tens of thousands.
But they did? Are you saying it's indiscriminate to kill anyone but your top targets?
They could take out those specific people because they did the work. They limited their bases until they could locate them and kill them. I'm not defending everybody Israel killed, but you can't say it's indiscriminate when Israel is taking out their targets with precise bombing. Civilians die in war and it's terrible. Gaza is extremely urban and the civilians weren't allowed to evacuate and Hamas used the evacuation routes that Israel created as launch sites to forcing Israel's hand. Everyone familiar with this conflict on October 6th knew people were going to die as Israel took every measure to root out Hamas. Many of us expected worse, but we also didn't expect Israel to win so easily, especially with Hezbollah.
If you kill \~50k and happen to kill some of your targets, that's coincidental. If you kill a few dozen as you kill your target, that's still morally abhorrent but you could at least argue it was targeted.
Israel is a vile state that is doing a genocide and slow rolling an ethnic cleansing, though if they and Trump get their way it's going to speed up rapidly.
Fuck off with this apologia for such indiscriminate killing.
Israel has killed less than 1% of the Palestinian people and killed every single major commander in Hamas and Hezbollah along with tens of thousands of their soldiers. You can't argue that it's coincidental. Part of that percentage and your 50k figure are combatants. We won't ever know the exact civilian:terrorist ratio, but we'll get a good idea after the dust settles.
Are you seriously arguing that they just so happened to kill all of these commanders and their next three lines of successors? At what point do you hold Hamas accountable for being grossly incompetent and raising the stakes instead of Israel for no longer dealing with them after October 7th.
You won't see me hitting Connor McGregor because I think he's a shitty human being. He'd beat me to death. Being impractical is not impressive to me.
Huh? Less than 1%? Are you living in a timeline that's 1+ year behind?
They've murdered 60,000+ people which is already 3% of the population with literally hundreds of thousands injured and maimed.
Also did you conveniently forget "Lavender" and "Daddy's Home" - that's literal war crimes. And Israel's ministers and top officials have publicly and repeatedly claimed that they want the people of Gaza to get "resettled" somewhere else. That's ethnic cleaning.
I know you're an Israeli apologist but don't be so blatantly daft.
Hamas can fuck off too, same as your apologia bullshit.
See how easy that is? You don't need to defend the people who killed, by their own admission, at least 30k civilians. Israel claims 20k Hamas killed, but given they follow the US route of "every male of fighting age is a terrorist," I doubt that very much.
But keep defending the deaths of those innocents, there's a nice warm place in hell for war mongers like you.
Does telling them to fuck off remove them from political power and prevent them from terrorizing? Unfortunately sometimes war is required and that means innocent people will get caught in the crossfire.
Hamas needs to go. It's time for Palestinians to get a final chance at electing a leader that builds Palestine instead of fighting Israel. If they can't, we'll have another war and then I'm in support of giving them a ruler appointed jointly by the UN and Israel.
I just want the violence to end. I think that's Pro Palestinian. You disagree but point to the amount of innocent people caught in the war Hamas started when they broke the ceasefire on October 7th. Israel achieved its mission. That alone shows it wasn't indiscriminate. Now it's time to win the diplomatic mission - force Hamas to surrender control of the government. If that fails, it's going to fall to plan B.
You have an unrealistic expectation of war and you're the one cheering for it to continue. You don't take hostages and kill over a thousand people to have a dialogue. I think you are the warmonger and being on the losing side of a war doesn't make your cause noble.
Nah, being pro the people bombing Palestinians is not pro Palestine. Fuck off with this new speak bullshit, too. You don't get to support the deaths of hundreds (and that's what you're doing, even if you can't bring yourself to admit it) and then say you support them.
No, I know exactly what war is, this is not a war. There was a ceasefire, Israel broke it, and now they've killed another 1,000 people as you make excuses for them. Israel wasn't interested in diplomacy, that's why they were going ahead with the planned ethnic cleansing and depopulation plan proposed by Trump.
But keep making excuses for genocide and ethnic cleansing. Don't try and say it's not, even Israeli generals and genocide scholars can admit what it is, show at least as much courage as they are.
But this is clearly a waste of my time, so I'll just end with this. You're a vile sycophant for tyrants and my only hope is you grow enough as a person to be ashamed of yourself in the future, but I'm not going to hold my breath.
Hamas broke the ceasefire. They announced it. Just like they broke the ceasefire on October 7th. You have no solutions and you have shown that you're willing to lie to win. When all that failed, you insulted me. Classic.
I think the Guinness has sterilized one too many of your neurons if you think my repeated explicit acknowledgments of Israeli war crimes in both of our concurrent conversations somehow constitutes "deflecting".
Banal as in banality of evil or banal as in 'ethno-colonial genocide enthusiasts have a really short fuse before the colonial savage that they truly are needs to drop the pretense of having any good faith argument and throws a classic illiterate insult'?
After all this time, you still think this is about the hostages?
The hostages are justification for Israel ethnically cleansing Gaza - but Israel has shown repeatedly by its military actions that the hostages are way down the list of priorities.
If it ain't about the hostages, then that's easy to prove: release them and let Israel be the bad guys. There clearly ain't any strategic advantage in keeping them around, given that the IDF is just as fine with "accidentally" blowing up hostages as they are with "accidentally" blowing up Palestinian civilians.
Not anywhere near the same degree that Gaza has been experiencing since 2023. The West Bank ain't exactly sunshine and rainbows, either, but last I checked the children there ain't being bombed to smithereens by the thousands annually - you know, almost as if Fatah had already tried Hamas' approach decades ago and already learned the hard way that it doesn't work.
That was literally the point of Phase 2, which Israel had repeatedly refused talks and proceeded to violate Phase 1 agreements (not allowing enough aid in).
If Israel was interested in its hostages and wanted to appear as the humanitarians they claim to be, why did they not agreement to Phase 2 talks?
Anyone pretending at this stage that this is anything other than collective punishment, war crimes and ethnic cleansing is either being intellectually dishonest or deluding themselves.
Definitely collective punishment and war crimes. Ethnic cleansing is a sort of (The IDF fliers are threatening ethnic cleansing as a punishment). Not sure where the genocidal intent is being expressed (surrender or die is not genocidal intent. Genocidal intent is die or die).
Simply put: if you support Israel's actions in Gaza, you support the mass killing of children.
Well, yes, everyone sees it as a consequence. Just like I'm sure the Allies knew they were massively killing lots of Axis children.
Seems like you're defending the indefensible. Do you support the killing of children?
Genocidal intent, or dolus specialis, is the specific mental element required to classify an act as genocide under international law; it's the intent to destroy a national, ethnical, racial, or religious group, in whole or in part, as such.
There are many examples by Israeli leaders. You must have missed them all. "There are no innocent civilians in Gaza"..."They have no right to exist"..."Total annihilation" etc.
The world's leading genocide experts have already concluded that there are "reasonable grounds" a genocide is taking place. Many genocide scholars and human rights groups too. The ICJ says it is plausible and they have yet to make a final ruling (these cases take years).
It's a bit ridiculous to make comparisons to the Second World War - before the Genocide Convention (or indeed most international law) existed.
What a strange question. For the hell of it, no. But should a paramilitary get to be invincible because it is near children? Also no.
There are many examples by Israeli leaders. You must have missed them all. "There are no innocent civilians in Gaza"..."They have no right to exist"..."Total annihilation" etc.
Read through the endless actual leader lines. It is not genocide is the primary intent is to force a political group's surrender (though certainly other war crimes may be present); the primary intent does not seem to be that or they would have easily killed far far more people by now.
So your position is that if Hamas surrendered tomorrow, Israel would kill all Gazans? If so, why haven't they already? Not like Hamas is offering much defense there.
Technically, Israel was fine with Phase 2 but they wanted it to include Hamas surrendering. Hamas said no, so Israel said to hell with Phase 2 negotiations.
Pretty unreasonable to have absolute surrender of sovereignty as a condition of negotiation, don’t you think? Would you expect Israel to consider such terms if Hamas had put them forward? Or any nation/ resistance group for that matter? Such a condition is clearly just pre-tense to end the cease fire, resume their genocidal campaign, and frame it as hamas’ failure to comply with “peace talks”. Whether they accepted Israel’s terms or not, the Israelis get what they want: complete control over the remaining Palestinian Territories.
By “unreasonable” I don’t mean that the demand isn’t supported by sufficient leverage. I mean that it’s an empty demand designed to justify the actions they truly want to take.
no. my argument is that they were done playing by the rules of the cease fire and so decided to offer an empty demand to justify going back to business as usual while making Hamas seem unreasonable for not agreeing to “peace terms”.
resistance is their only means of survival. Israel clearly isn’t willing to approach anything regarding the Palestinian plight in a diplomatic way. if Israel is going to demolish them and settle in their ruins regardless, why would they abandon their struggle?
Both Israel and the Trump administration have blamed Hamas for the resumption of hostilities, citing the militant group's refusal to meet Israel's demand to release more hostages in return for the resumption of talks.
But this was not part of the original ceasefire agreement that went into effect Jan. 19. The first phase of that deal, which had Hamas release 25 living hostages and the bodies of eight in exchange for around 1,800 of Palestinian prisoners, ended March 1.
The second phase was set to kick in 16 days later and would have included the exchange of all the remaining hostages and the establishment of a permanent ceasefire. In phase three, the bodies of all dead hostages were to be returned and a commitment made to rebuild Gaza.
That's not entirely correct. Stage 1 expired March 1, without stage 2 happening (for reasons I noted), so Israel proposed extending Stage 1. Hamas rejected that.
Israeli officials claim that this is not an agreement to end the war while Hamas is still standing in Gaza. Instead, they insist that in the second phase the remaining Hamas leadership will be exiled and excluded from governing the Gaza Strip. If Hamas refuses, as one would expect, the ceasefire could collapse.
it's the intent to destroy a national, ethnical, racial, or religious group, in whole or in part, as such.
If no more destruction occurs after a political movement surrenders, the intention was the political movement surrendering, not to destroy the population.
Allied bombings killed Nazi children. Therefore the Nazis should have just been pushed back to their original borders and the war declared over, right?
You guys have really been trying to make "Israel is the Allies and Palestine is the nazis" thing work but kinda hard for it to stick when Israel's the one doing genocide
how do you def8ne success? every palestinian in Gaza will have generational trauma, a decent amount of people have had limbs decimated (if they survived) and most importantly a disproportionate amount of children have been killed
It is not nearly as relevant as you seem to think it is. "Only" 8000 people died during the Bosnian genocide, doesn't make it not one simply because it's a low percentage of the population that got killed
Friendo, tell me something. Are there still jewish people and bosnians that are alive on this earth? Maybe even armenians, maybe romani? If so, then that throws out your very stupid assertion of "If they were doing genocide, all Gazans would be dead by now." because then we gotta say that basically every single genocide in the history of mankind, unless it completely wiped out its target, is actually NOT a genocide. Yes, this includes the holocaust.
You seem to not be familiar with the legal definition of what constitutes a genocide.
Genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
Hamas only failed to kill as much Israelis because thousands of their rockets headed into populated areas are intercepted and because Israelis have bomb shelters everywhere.
just because Hamas failed doing their genocide doesn't mean they're not genocidal
Okay cool. Hey remind me how many Palestinians Israel's killed since they broke the ceasefire? Wouldn't be something like 500+ in 3-4 days with 200 children included in those 500+, would it?
Ethnic cleansing is a sort of (The IDF fliers are threatening ethnic cleansing as a punishment). Not sure where the genocidal intent is being expressed
lmao stop using old terminology and start calling it what it is. that zio propaganda works on you and your ethnistate, but not on anyone with two eyes and a brain
War crime? Oh no, better send your people to be war police. See how that goes for them, and how it's gone for every country to take palestinian refugees. Ask Kuwait.
So you forgot about the white death? Franco? Fracno's spain providing amnesty and safe harbor for Nazi political leaders? The "deal of silence"? Every nation commits atrocities. Every single one. It is the nature of government to do terrible things in the nature of preserving its self.
That’s an absurd statement. Here’s the UN’s fact sheet on genocide in case you care to educate yourself. The most relevant section:
The definition of Genocide is made up of two elements, the physical element — the acts committed; and the mental element — the intent. Intent is the most difficult element to deter-mine. To constitute genocide, there must be a proven intent on the part of perpetrators to physically destroy a national, ethnical, racial or religious group. Cultural destruction does not suffice, nor does an intention to simply disperse a group, though this may constitute a crime against humanity as set out in the Rome Statute. It is this special intent, or dolus specialis, that makes the crime of genocide so unique.
To constitute genocide, it also needs to be established that the victims are deliberately targeted - not randomly - because of their real or perceived membership of one of the four groups protected under the Convention. This means that the target of destruction must be the group, as such, or even a part of it, but not its members as individuals.
It is the definition used by the international community and the definition used in international law. It’s useful because it’s the only definition that matters because if the UN agrees it is a genocide then all signatories of the charter are obliged to act to stop the genocide. It’s the only definition that matters.
I know habibi, it's tough is it to not threaten genocide, ethnic cleansing, bombing thousands of children, starving a whole population, putting up killzones without informing civilians, bombing safe areas, blocking water and electricity, and many more things.
Bullshit. You’d find a new justification for the genocide. This bombing campaign will kill far more hostages than it will save. It’ll kill tons of innocent civilians too, but I doubt you are bothered by that.
You cannot empathize with Palestinians. To you they're not people with hopes or ambitions. They're just terrorists, there's no point talking to you. Go justify genocide and ethnic cleansing somewhere else.
Let’s apply your rationale to Israeli civilians. In a country where everyone must serve in the military, can anyone be an innocent civilian? Are settlers who occupy illegal settlements any different from soldiers in a military occupation just because they’re not armed?
It’s always wrong to attack unarmed civilians. It’s always wrong to commit genocide and it’s disgusting that I have to explain that to you. You’ve fallen for the dehumanizing propaganda to the point that you see the slaughter of people as justified.
Don't know, I think genocide is wrong despite the fact my government participates in it. Personally I can't fathom how morally bankrupt one has to be to defend an explicit threat of genocide for free.
Well the other option is to allow a fundamentalist death cult continue to harass your boarders, massacre your people and fire rockets into your country.
So how do you stop a fundamentalist death cult without killing people?
Hamas are terrorists that oppose the death, destruction and displacement of their people.
They are terrorists and do terrorist things, Israel, being the so called ‘democracy’ and ‘moral army’ in this situation are absolutely no different.
Nothing Israel has done in the last 80 years has made Israel any safer, in fact it will ensure a perpetuation if voilence until something horrible inevitably happens, a large regional war that lasts for years, maybe leading to a new world war included…
Israel has never stopped provoking or displacing people, it needs to stop, but the entire Israeli government runs on the bloodshed unfortunately.
There are plenty of level headed Israelis who want there to be some form of agreement, but the right wing nutjobs are only there to ensure the perpetual need for them and therefore their power.
Let’s also remember that Israel itself was born of terror and has many state apparatus, including modern day Mossad, IDF and shin bet that originated from terrorist groups and gangs. Resistance is what got Israel to where it is and its expectation that noone else is allowed that resistance will lead to Israelis never feeling safe.
But if you were in the position to choose only one of these societies to exist, and the other simply vanished, giving their lands to the other - which would you choose?
Brother, I’ve lived with muslims and non muslims in many countries and used to be one. Nobody wants anyone to vanish.
This is peak ignorance and xenophobia.
There are Australians that hate and wish the aboriginals gone, does that make every white Australian a participant in genocide?
Please grow up. You’re living in a fantasy and you’re grouping an entire religion of billions of people into one mindless monolith. This is what xenophobia and ignorance is.
There aren’t two possible outcomes. Suggesting there is and its the only way for peace is incredibly ignorant, if not outright dishonest.
I am assuming, for your sake that you are just ignorant and don’t know much about anything and refuse o entertain it any longer, otherwise, you’re just a hateful racist.
it’s incredible how the internet empowers people like you, ignorant people and racists alike, at the end of the day, you’re all just scared.
How the actual fuck are the people committing genocide and proclaiming it to be gods will not the death cult? This is literally the exact same line of argument Nazis used to justify the holocaust, that the Jews were an existential threat to Germany and even all western civilization.
Just as Israel proclaims their actions to be inherently Jewish no matter how much their actions directly contradict the Talmud. The cognitive dissonance on display is truly staggering.
Literally what the actual fuck is the difference? They are still invoking their religion to justify actual fucking genocide. You are literally no better than an actual fucking Nazi if you think that's acceptable in any capacity.
Try to obfuscate and find justification all you like: this is what you support.
Is that like how you are saying it's okay to take hostages (including sub 1 year olds) but it's not okay to hit military targets that are being shielded by civilians? Why is one okay but the other is not?
I remember we were debating about collective punishment at the beginning of all this, but now mid genocide lesser war crimes aren't even they lie about or try to hide anymore?? I guess if Daddy is going to sanction the ICJ and ICC to get them out of any consequences than everything is fair game?
Shower thought ive been having is why isnt Israel offering to send the US eggs? They begging Lithuania now. You would think all them billions would buy you some eggs though
After the first hospital bombing we went through an entire disinformation campaign where Isreal did their living best to falsify Hamas operations from inside the hospital and pretend they would never ever bomb a hospital, and it was actually a Hamas rocket that failed that blew it up, and when it was concretely disproven and they faced no consequences, they immediately then destroyed every single other hospital in Gaza
A week after the incident, several sources considered that an errant rocket from Gaza was the likeliest explanation, based on analyses conducted by the Associated Press, CNN, The Economist, The Guardian, and The Wall Street Journal.
Then after seeing Forensic Architecture's along with Maher Arar's analysis of Al Ahli, it's clear a PIJ rocket didn't hit the hospital.
An Israeli CCTV camera from the Gaza envelope shows the launching of 17 PIJ rockets, and all of these rockets had consistent burn rates, so it's impossible for one of those rockets to randomly deviate and strike the hospital after the rocket engine is already exhausted
A rocket can not change it's direction severely in the air after the rocket motor has been expended, same way a tennis ball you throw with your hand can't change direction significantly once it's already left your hand
Israel threatens Gaza's residents with "complete destruction" ~~if Hamas doesn't hand over hostages~~
If Israel would kill everyone in Gaza including the hostages, how could anyone possibly believe they won't kill everyone in Gaza after the hostages are released?
One way to find out. They can release the hostages and hope that israel backs down. Or they can not release the hostages and Israel DEFINITELY won’t back down.
Pretty simple calculus really.
Also, they should really just fucking release the hostages already. And if the world really cared about dead Gaza civilians as much as they pretend to, they would be encouraging the same.
Removing Hamas from power with military might is never happening, Israel has been trying for 20 years, and Hamas have said the only way they will step down is if there is a viable, independent, Palestinian state
What has Israel accomplished in the last year? Sure the death toll is huge, but even the IDF admit Hamas has at least replenished their numbers if not increased them
You mean like the experience they are getting right now? Leaders can, have and will continue to be replaced. As long as the motivation to resist is there, there will always be someone who steps up. They will never stop. As long as they are alive and oppressed there will always be resistance. Your only options are genocide or compromise. The Israeli government knows that, and their choice is obvious
You are right. It isn't a real threat. In fact it has never been a real threat. The only reason october 7th was even possible was because of a major fuckup on Israel's part. They not only ignored intelligence of an imminent attack, they moved troops away from Gaza to protect and expand illegal settlements in the west bank. That is why it was much more successful than even Hamas predicted. They expected most of their fighters to die just breaking through the wall.
But Hamas doesn't exist to be an existential threat to Israel. The point of Hamas, and their rocket attacks, which they know will do minimal damage, is to say "we are still here and we refuse to roll over and die". Do you honestly think Hamas launches their 59th rocket attack thinking "this time it will definitely work for sure. Just one more attack and the zionist state will collapse".
Hamas is never going to "win" a conventional war, but they don't have to. They just have to provoke Israel into doing something so horrible they can never recover from, which I think they already have. The US is the only ally Israel has left, and even there sympathy for Isaelis is dropping and sympathy for Palestinians rising. If Israel had been sensible the fighting would have been over a long time ago and they would have walked away looking superior to their barbaric enemies. Instead they have not only gone down to the same level, they have gone lower. And the worst part is now Netanyahu can't end it, even if he wanted to, he can only dig the hole deeper. The far right like Ben-Gvir and Smotrich are thirsty for blood and will not stop until every Palestinian is dead, and Netanyahu needs them and the war to stay in power and out of jail. His court hearing was literally cancelled because of the ceasefire he broke. How much more blatant can you be.
If you are Israeli the only hope you have of keeping your country from collapse is to get out there and protest Netanyahu and the war. Your only hope is to get rid of him and his cabinet, and label this war as a black stain on the nation's history caused by a single madman clinging to power, instead of the collective societal bloodthirst it really was.
I can only hope you get out of this sinking ship before you go down with it. Without a significant change in course Israel is doomed, collapsing under its own self isolation and extremism. Same as apartheid south africa
Which one has been funded, armed and backed up politically by the most powerful nation on the planet, and which one has been under occupation and blockade for, well, pretty much all of that time
Israel was established while under a UN embargo. They had to smuggle weapons in from Czechoslovakia. It was not funded, armed, backed up then. Bad take.
The israeli military was created out of militia groups directly funded by the british. However, you specifically mentioned since 1948 to today, and Israel has been supported by the US for most of that period.
As for which is more stable, obviously Israel. They aren't the ones who have been under occupation and blockade for over 70 years. However that doesn't exactly mean it is stable, it does keep getting attacks and uprisings from the people it is oppressing
No, Israel being more stable than Gaza does not disprove anything I said.
Would you feel better about the collapse of Israel if Gaza collapses first? Will that make it worth it? It is fine as long as you can take them down with you?
"Was not stable"? I am not talking about the past, I am talking about right now.
Do you know what happened to apartheid south africa? They faced escalating resistance from the groups they were oppressing and decided to crack down hard with force. That lost they all their international allies who eventually started applying sanctions, under which the apartheid regime collapsed.
That is happening right now with Israel. The US is the only ally you have left, and that ally is actively sabotaging your relationships with everyone else, not to mention even in that country opinions are turning against Israelis. Seriously just look at the results of UN general assembly votes. Most of the world votes against you, but hey, at least you got Nauru, Micronesia, Tonga and Fiji on your side so I guess you are safe.
There is always a point of no return. Like tens of thousands of dead, hundreds of thousands of injured, millions traumatized and billions of dollars of destruction. All with glee. There are videos of IDF soldiers destroying medical equipment while laughing and settlers destroying humanitarian supplies while the IDF watch.
"Been allowed to exist" implies it is within their power to eradicate them. Even if Israel successfully kill every single Hamas members, there will be more, but a different name or the same one. Palestinian militants believe they are fighting for the freedom of their people. You can't bomb that out of them. It didn't work in Vietnam and it won't work now
Japan surrendered because they had the option to do so and remain a free, independent nation. Israeli officials have openly said there will NEVER be a Palestinian state.
Hamas and Palestinian resistance in general may surrender, but ONLY if a viable option is presented as an alternative. Israel has not done that, and has no plans of doing that. In fact they applaud Trumps plan of complete ethnic cleansing, which, for the Palestinians, and Hamas in particular, is a non starter
Viable alternatives? were you born yesterday? Hamas founding charter calls for the destruction of Israel, there are no 'viable alternatives'
Palestinians were given Gaza and Hamas doubled down on the terrorism ffs
If Hamas and their ilk refuse to recognise Israels right to exist Israel will keep the boot on their neck forever. As the saying goes, peace will be possible only when the Palestinians learn to love their children more than they hate Israel
Yeah that's stupid saying which is inherently racist.
The Israelis just want peace, but these monstrous backwards Arabs hate them soooo much that they're willing to sacrifice all their children, just because they argh just hate them arghhh.
Israel has allowed suitcases holding millions in Qatari cash to enter Gaza through its crossings since 2018, in order to maintain its fragile ceasefire with the Hamas rulers of the Strip. Most of the time, Israeli policy was to treat the Palestinian Authority as a burden and Hamas as an asset.
He later said “those who oppose a Palestinian state should support the transfer of funds to Gaza, because maintaining the separation between the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza would prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state.”
You’re going to play a semantics game now about allowing finding vs funding directly as if his intentions weren’t to prop up Hamas, something he now claims to be against despite supporting with fervor over the years.
World news is frothing at the mouth posting daily hasbara, and you can’t come up with something better than Reddit talking points as an excuse to defend your dear leader? 🤣
They say they may release all the hostages if you do a bunch of things including not invade. Saying it’s just the main demand is dishonest. Hamas has other lines in the sand.
They can’t just carpet bomb the entire Gaza Strip and then want the hostages back. Imagin bombing the house in which a hostage is and then getting mad at hamas for reporting that it is dead.
Also let’s be real here. The current events should have made it more than clear that this is lot about the hostages. They want the land very obviously
I doubt Hamas are actually able to return all the remaining hostages. Most of them are already dead and Hamas themselves might not have the bodies or be able to salvage them from the rubble. They already had trouble returning the body of Shiri Bibas.
Anyway, Israel knows that this demand will be at least very hard to fulfill and I suspect that that’s precisely the point. If Hamas don’t fulfill it, it will serve as a pretense for continuing to make Gaza as uninhabitable as possible.
I agree that they shouldn’t have. But it’s not just Hamas who are now suffering from the disproportionate response, it’s everyone in Gaza. The whole population, including children, is being collectively punished for the crimes of a few.
By that logic I guess all the people that Hamas killed on Oct 7th is directly on Israel since they elected Bibi + Likud who are expanding the settlements.
I mean it's absurd, but by your logic that's the only possibility.
One bill submitted for preliminary parliamentary review could potentially grant Defence Ministry powers to far-right politician Bezalel Smotrich to encourage Jewish settlement of the occupied West Bank, where Palestinians seek statehood. - CHECK
Other bills would consolidate cabinet authority over police for fellow ultranationalist Itamar Ben-Gvir, and enable ultra-Orthodox Jewish politician Arieh Deri to serve as finance minister, opens new tab despite his having been convicted of tax fraud. - CHECK
"We were elected to lead in our way, the way of the nationalist-right and the way of the liberal-right, and so shall we do," he told the Knesset, to heckling from centre-left lawmakers. - CHECK
You’re transparently justifying ethnic cleansing and genocide, as are most Israelis. Don’t complain when the entire world wants nothing to do with you.
Do you even know when you would have had to be born to have voted in the latest Gaza election? Go figure that out and report back instead of repeating talking points trying to rationalize the wholesale slaughter of innocent people.
Are you responsible for the Deir Yassin massacre using the same logic purely because you're Israeli?
I don't think you realize the implications of what you're saying if people who weren't even born are responsible for actions taken before they were even born. It's the kind of logic used to commit terrible massacres in the past for perceived transgressions by people way back in time.
The paramilitary groups that did that were not voted in, so it’d be impossible for me to be responsible. You can’t even work your way through simple logic.
Hamas was elected, by Palestinians, while openly stating their goal of annihilating Israel and killing Jewish people. No one forced Palestinians to vote for and support that.
What about the Arab al-Mawasi massacre then? That was perpetuated by the formal IDF forces, which is the armed forces of your country? Explain why you aren't responsible for that using your own logic?
If Hamas wants to have a small sliver of a chance to survive, the only choice is to actually be fucking honest. Grant the Red Cross access to each and every person and corpse they have in their own custody at the very least.
It's a dumb proposal, it's quite clear that they will bomb whether the hostages are returned or not, that's why they refused to start phase 2 and just wanted to extend phase 1 instead
One way to find out. They can release the hostages and hope that israel backs down. Or they can not release the hostages and Israel DEFINITELY won’t back down.
Pretty simple calculus really.
Also, they should really just fucking release the hostages already. And if the world really cared about dead Gaza civilians as much as they pretend to, they would be encouraging the same.
Listen here I ain’t a monster like the Zionist and I genuinely want the hostages back. But do you have any idea what would happen if they let them go ?
There would be exactly nothing stopping israhell and the IOF to just straight up annihilate Gaza.
I have a extremely extremely crazy idea. How about you send in some special forces trained for hostage evacuation to minimize causalities instead of grounding Gaza which is full of children ?
But this way the Zionists couldn’t occupy Gaza and ethnically cleanse the land
Nothing is stopping the Israelis now so I don’t really get your point. And sending in troops into a highly urbanised area is just asking to have casualties on your side which just makes the rescue missions stop. Modern warfare requires areal bombing or artillery barrages first. That’s how it works in Ukraine too, the front lines are basically Swiss cheese, but Ukraine has successful retreated their civilian population away from the front lines and don’t hide Ukrainian commanders in refugee camps.
The best option for Hamas would be to completely surrender, not just hand over the hostages but also step down from government and hand the strip over to an international interregnum government. If you had say Saudi and Egyptian troops in charge it would be harder for Israel to justify an invasion.
I didn’t say send in troops I said send in special forces. Small group high risk high reward. Thats surely better for getting the hostages out than bombing everything there.
Also yes something is stopping Israel and that are the hostages. Thats only reason why the Gazans haven’t been completely annihilated yet. They have to keep the facade of running this operation to get the hostages out or they would loose even more of their populations support and international support. Even more than already
You think special forces are just some invincible group that can deeply penetrate Gaza no problem. They Israelis already use special forces when they can. But this isn’t some situation where you can just arrive blasting in the middle of the night miles away from the frontline, locate the hostages deep in tunnels, kills all the enemies on their home turf, rescue the hostages, then somehow retreat with them back behind your lines. It gets incredibly messy. One time Hamas just ended up shooting the hostages and the other time the Israelis ended up shooting the hostages themselves by mistake. Also most troop lost Israel had this war was on their attempts to rescue hostages.
There was proposals since the start of the war for a UN government to take over in Gaza. Hamas isn’t saving Palestinians, they are the reason Palestinians are dying right now. Israel use the fact they Hamas is in power to justify their invasion. They use the fact that Hamas has a single operative in a residential building to bring the whole building down. I don’t know how you could possibly claim in any single way that Hamas is the only thing keeping Palestinian alive, when it pretty much the exact opposite.
So I guess keep the hostages and see if things get better in that department. Good choice. I’m sure this will bring so much freedom for the Palestinian people and make their situation with Israel less complicated. It sure does sound like a great plan and you are very smart for endorsing it. 👍
No. I acknowledge that the situation is complicated and one side acting like a bunch of Viking raiders from the Middle Ages is not going to make their own situation better.
It’s only complicated for people that refuse to acknowledge the reality of the situation. The complication arises from the cognitive dissonance of defending a genocidal state as if it the victim of the very people it has been victimizing since its inception. Once you dissolve yourself of the need to defend Israel at all costs and view the situation for what it is, there isn’t much to be confused about in terms of who is doing the oppressing and who is being oppressed. Even potential solutions to the problem become much clearer once you abandon this notion of Israeli exceptionalism that renders them impervious from facing the repercussions of their actions.
Here's a better idea. Force Israel to pick a solution and implement it. They refuse? Apply similar sanctions to Russia and completely block off Israel from the West until they agree. Treat them like someone who breaks the international law should be treated.
Is it really about the land itself—300 square kilometres of nothing but corpse-filled ruins and destroyed infrastructure that will cost billions for the cleanup alone—or is it about the violent attempt to prevent Gaza from ever posing a threat to them again, with the consideration of security first and human rights and international law never?
Gaza, Rafah, Khan Yunis and the rest don’t hold much religious or historical significance in Judaism the same way the occupied cities in the West Bank do, leading me to believe Israel is fine with just destroying them instead of settling them. I could be wrong, but there’s plenty of land in the WB that Zionist colonists would want to settle before they start moving into the Gaza Strip.
Yeah it is, they will just bury the corpses in mass graves like they have been doing and bring the bull dozer in. Where did you think Trump got the “riveria of the Middle East” bullshit from?
And I’m just going to say if Israel is going to kill 100s of thousand of people to sent a warning, it shows that they are every bit as barbaric and savage as the group that they accuse of being that if not more so
Ok mister smart brain Israel is a colonizer state that’s what they do. They want the land all for themselves but this is obviously not enough proof.
Calm down, first of all. You don’t have to jump straight to hostility.
Did you know that infront of Gazas shores there is actually a big amount of gas which the Palestinians own because Gaza is their land ?
Yes. Technically, this is an argument over territorial waters, not land—and I’m going to go out on a limb and guess you would say that all of the land that makes up Israel, and it’s natural resources, belongs to Palestinians, which is a perspective you’re entitled to. But if that’s what you think, you’re just helping to blur the philosophical, moral and legal line between where “Israel” ends and “Palestine” begins.
Did you know that in Gaza there is a holy side for the Jews where a ritual is to be held one day to summon their „messiah“
I did not. I’ll look into it.
Did you know that there are be plans to get around the Suez Canal by making an artificial canal through Israel? Problem is that this canal would have to go trough Gaza.
This is more of a conspiracy theory and speculation than an actual plan—at best, it’s Trump-style shit talking from far-right Israeli politicians. And no, there’s nothing about this hypothetical canal (which would have to be dug through mountains and rugged terrain any way you build it) that says it would have to go through Gaza—it could just as well be cut through the desert on the Israeli side of the border, and it would need to run through “mainland Israel” anyway to link the seas together.
Honestly good for calling me out on my hostility. I’m sorry for insulting you I hope you can forgive me.
My head is not in the right place currently and I’m getting more and more hearted and writing more and more stuff that is ( imo ) true but not brought to you as a logical point because there is just too much emotion.
I will stop answering to cool down now.
But honestly good for you for calling my temper out and for making logical and collected responses
Again sorry for calling you a smart brain or whatever I said
All’s good brother, it’s an emotionally-charged topic, and a frustrating one. I get why it makes people go from 0-60. And thank you for showing a rare demonstration of humility on the internet, in a comments section—that almost never happens, and speaks well to your character ✌️
Nah man thinking about it I don’t even know why I engaged in this comment section anyways. It never changes anything. And I normally don’t engage because of that reason.
Yeah usually I am not this heated and just show kindness 😅.
Thx for being cool about it and also we need to stick together as humans.
Plus I actually really like the Canadians so take care. :)
That is why Hamas refused to enter Stage 2. Israel stated that they had to turn over the prisoners and Israel was allowed to continue indiscriminate bombings in Gaza Strip.
This is categorically false. Hamas said multiple times it was ready to start phase 2 negotiations as agreed upon in January. Israel wanted nothing more than an extension of phase 1, which was not part of the agreement, in exchange for releasing more captives all while never committing to ending the war. Israel reneged on the deal then decided to just resume fighting.
Is Israel a good faith actor? They literally raped prisoners to death on video then broke out the rapists and defended the in parliament and one of them is a famous TV personality now.
Israelis are rightly pissed that the hostages are not being returned. If someone took my family members hostage, who knows what I would be capable of if I caught some of the people responsible and they weren’t telling me where they were?
I’m not defending sexual violence and think all violence is abhorrent, but being real here for a minute: I won’t lose much sleep if kidnappers of little kids were tortured into revealing information about there whereabouts. What goes around comes around.
To start with, those were people who weren't kidnappers. At least there was no evidence presented for them to being kidnappers nor a trial. Second, torture doesn't work. Third, it didn't work. Israel only got back hostages by negotiations and all the baby murder didn't release any hostages and instead the random bombing killed them. Fourth, and most importantly, Israel has been raping Palestinians since its inception. It goes as far back as Deir Yassin and Tantura when it comes to rounding up random women in Palestinian villages and raping them. What are you talking about?
I too can read propaganda forums about an area I never set foot in and parrot it back like I know what the fuck I’m talking about.
But I don’t do that. Return the hostages if you really want to avoid conflict in the region. If you still refuse I guess you prefer dead babies and that makes you sick. There is nothing more to say.
Lmao honestly tho. This person is legit saying “hamas” and “says” in the same sentence as if that holds any sort of merit. This world is going to shit if we’re believing a terrorist org is spitting facts after publicly dragging dead Jews on the streets on camera.
You really think Israel as a whole would support that, especially given the cost in lives it would take? More soldiers would die than previously in the war, and no longer would the reason be to save hostages or protect Israel. I can’t see there being enough will within or without Israel for that to ever actually happen.
I’d like to see a poll taken after the hostages are returned. One has to assume that most of the responses are going to be fueled by the want for retribution. Like how support for Hamas and armed resistance increases among Palestinians.
I can’t see into the future. You asked about the sentiment among Israelis about the proposed ethnic cleansing and I provided a poll on their sentiment.
A poll was provided. You said “can’t really blame them”. I can only rely on what you type and the information that is reported on. The facts imply broad support among Israelis to ethnically cleansed the people in Gaza and you agree. This isn’t complicated.
You didn’t understand my statement at all of you think it endorses ethnic cleansing.
Countless polls show support among Palestinians for Hamas. Hamas is a terrorist organization. Would you say that that support for Hamas makes the Palestinian people in general supportive of terrorism, such as suicide bombings, kidnappings, mass shootings, etc.?
The reason your average Gaza will express support for Hamas is simple. They are the only group that provides the means to fight back. If your family was buried under the rubble or had to watch your little sister starve you would be just as susceptible to joining any extremists group. They are human beings who think and feel just like you.
The reason why the average Israeli supports removing Gazans is simple. Hamas attacked from Gaza and is full of Palestinians. They are the ones responsible for attacking and killing their kinsmen. Remove the Gazans, no more terrorist attacks. Since it doesn’t seem like Gazans will ever seek peace, such as giving back the hostages voluntarily, it’s best to remove the threat entirely.
So we agree then. I find it strange you equate the Israeli state to a bunch of extremists but here we are. In the end only one side will commit ethnic cleansing. And it will be Israel with the backing of the United States. Disciple. What a stain on their history. But you will continue to obfuscate. Sad
I’m ok with calling most Israelis “extremists” if you admit that Palestinians as a whole support terrorism. Note, not freedom fighting or resistance, since that’s not what Hamas does, but actual terrorism. And make no mistake, Hamas and the Palestinians absolutely would commit ethnic cleansing if they were able. This is obvious in numerous Hamas speeches and Palestinian chants and actions.
How on earth do you gather that Hamas could be destroyed with a single bomb? Explain this reasoning. I’ve never heard that one before.
I attempted to type “without” a single bomb. I believe if Israel removed all reasons for extremist Palestinians to exist (like constant bombardment and denying their sovereignty) then a group like Hamas would struggle to recruit as many as they do. Unless you think they all are born with an antisemitism gene then what I’m saying is understandable.
Hamas has stated they’re goal is to destroy Israel. Not protect Gaza or the WB or Palestinians in general, but destroy Israel. There is no reason at all to think that if Israel stopped bombing Hamas and thus Palestinians, Hamas would just never attack again. Oct 7th was unprovoked, of course, and is a prime example. If Israel stops hitting Hamas and gets rid of all barriers between the Palestinian territories and Israel and inaugurates free travel, etc., Hamas will just use that to attack Israel more often and more aggressively. Israel can’t just not do anything when Hamas does that either. Make no mistake, Hamas absolutely benefits from the conflict. It absolutely benefits from dead Palestinians. That’s why it never wants peace and tries to get Israel to kill as many civilians as possible. That’s also why they never take any steps to try and minimize civilian casualties in any conflict. Hamas will never want peace, and Israel has to fight against it. If that fight just fuels Hamas, there’s really nothing Israel can do to stop that.
You are ignoring decades of oppression against the Palestinians. You keep saying why Hamas is evil like I’m justifying their existence. I’m explaining WHY they exist. If for the last decade thousands of Palestinians grew up with basic needs and were not under constant threat of bombardment then I think Hamas would not have the means to act as they do. Iran can send weapons for years but Israel gives them a reason to fight by obliterating their entire family and burying all they know under rubble. Israel understands this. They know who has the resources and power and it isn’t Iran or Hamas. It is their US backers.
Why did that constant threat of bombardment exist? Because of Hamas. Israel gives Palestinians a reason to fight by simply existing. Once again, it’s evident in Hamas’ ideology and within many Palestinian chants. “From the river to the sea”, a very popular chant as I’m sure you know, is calling for the destruction of the whole of Israel.
Israel definitely has the power here, but what alternative does it have when it gets attacked by Hamas than to retaliate? That’s why the barriers exist, why control is kept so tight around Gaza and the WB. Because if it slackens, Hamas will exploit that weakness. Should Israel be willing to sacrifice thousands of civilians in order to maybe show that it has a right to exist to Palestinians?
You will never understand until you recognize WHY Hamas exists. You seem to think it’s ‘might makes right’ when it comes to ending this conflict. We have a fundamental disagreement on the ethics of ethnic cleansing and I guess that’s where we have to leave it.
The simple truth is that the Israelis have the power to destroy the Palestinians while the Palestinians don’t have the power to ever destroy the Israelis. If the Palestinians keep making this a struggle for survival, which they do when they keep supporting Hamas, the only way it’ll ever end is when one of the sides is destroyed or no longer a factor. Of course the Palestinians will never be able to destroy Israel, so every time they attack and whenever they support Hamas they’re just slowly killing themselves. The only way this entire conflict ends is when Palestinians actually give up violent resistance, reject Hamas, and show a willingness for actual peace.
If the Palestinians keep making this a struggle for survival
You literally just admitted that Palestinians aren't an existential threat to Israel, how are they then they then making this a struggle for survival?
They exist at the mercy of their oppressors and are somehow also the ones with the agency in the situation. You're treating Israeli aggression as little more than a natural phenomenon which can't be avoided.
What exactly is Israel supposed to do when Hamas attacks? It’s not really an existential threat to Israel, yet they can’t just do nothing whenever Hamas attacks and kills thousands of Israelis, or when Palestinians applaud and overwhelming support these actions. The only reason why Israel would ever let up on what they’re doing now is if Palestinians rejected violent resistance and Hamas. Otherwise, they have absolutely no reason to not continue.
Israel isn’t committing genocide. The two options are do something or do nothing. Except of course Israel can’t do nothing, so it has to do something every time it gets attacked. Or should Israel just turn the other cheek every time Palestinians and Hamas attempt to genocide them?
I’d say there’s a fundamental problem with Palestinian culture at this point. They love dying, they love terrorism, they glorify killing Israelis no matter the cost. There’s hardly any living with them at this point. So the only way to actually achieve peace is for Palestinians to reject violent resistance and reject Hamas. Otherwise they’re just going to keep killing themselves.
There’s been one example of nonviolent resistance like ever. If Palestinians actually gave it a concerted try, like what African Americans did in the US during the 60s, they’d see much more progress.
Israel has no reason to not keep responding as long as Palestinians embrace and glorify violence.
israel isn't committing genocide buuuuuuuut the Palestinians have it coming.
At least you put your racism on display for everyone to see, but the fact that you feel comfortable in doing so is kind of unsettling in and of itself.
They have been slowly becoming extinct for decades. That’s how we got here. They could have rolled over in 1948 but that’s not how the world works. Especially post WW2. The Palestinians will be relegated to the history books and we will have to teach our children about how we stood idle as they were ethnically cleansed in the same way many others were before them. Fucking tragic. I admire the Jewish people and I’m sad this may become a part of their legacy.
Jewish activists have been at the forefront of supporting Palestinian rights for decades. It’s mortifying what we are witnessing.
They have been slowly becoming extinct for decades because they’ve been violently resisting for decades. They didn’t roll over in 1948 because they thought they could win. They lost the land because they lost the war they started. Make no mistake that the Jews would have been kicked out of the land if they had lost the war. The Palestinians are killing themselves by violently resisting. It’s tragic, but there’s no need to feel bad for them because they’re choosing this.
Jewish activists absolutely have been at the forefront of supporting Palestinian rights and independence. And guess what? Many of the must prominent supporters were killed by Hamas on Oct 7th. Palestinians and Hamas don’t care about that support.
Look up Women Wage Peace. Their leader, Vivian Silver, described as one of the most prominent advocates for peace with the Palestinians, was killed on Oct 7th. Turns out Hamas and Palestinians don’t care if Jews want peace. They sure don’t.
Once Palestinians give the hostages back there won’t be anymore desire to continue the war from the Israeli people. No will, no more war. Perhaps it would be wise for Hamas to take away the very reason Israel is invading Gaza in the first place.
I'm basing my replies to you on evidence, you're flinging shit like a monkey in a cage at the zoo.
Bibi is literally fighting right now, as stated by him, to eliminate Hamas, not to rescue the hostages. It's a stated war aim, and the fighting is the only thing keeping his government together. Phase 2, which should've started 4 days ago, would have resulted in the return of the hostages, but Israel refused to enter that phase... Do you know why? Because it included a permanent ceasefire
You're not following along, you're just parroting what you've been told to believe.
If the Palestinians didn’t want it “stolen”, they shouldn’t have declared war on the Israelis to try and kick them out of the whole of the land in the first place.
Per the UN and various international groups, not Israel. Israel agreed much of it was to be turned over as part of a negotiated solution; they've just given up on the negotiation.
Is that a real question? The US blocks anything targeting Israel in the only UN body with any actual power, the security council, which is the only body that can issue binding resolutions...
thank you for saying the quiet part out loud. I screenshot messages like these and send them yo people who are still on the fence about what your side thinks. thanks for the help!
Man sorry but you are so naive. This was never about the hostages.
When you want to free a hostage from a building and make sure they don’t starve… do you carpet bomb the block that building is in ? Do you cut off water and food and electricity, making sure the hostage can’t properly be fed ?
Don’t be a fool. This was never about the hostages. Look at trumps plan. Heck they already started to sell land from Gaza to Israelis ( look it up )
This was never about the hostages it was only a image they needed to totally destroy Gaza and kill it’s people.
Do you think Hamas is actively promoting where the hostages are? If Hamas wanted to ensure that the hostages weren’t killed in bombings, they’d broadcast their locations to make sure Israel avoided hitting them.
And yet the prieotity for most people is to just get the hostages back. Once they get the hostages back, support for the war plummets and the war ends.
But when Hamas threatens the destruction of Israel if they don’t end the illegal blockade of Gaza and the illegal occupation of the West Bank, they’re called terrorists.
The problem is that there is no if there, the sole existence of Hamas is the complete aniquilation of the Israel state. And it has been like that before any ocupation or blockade.
There's literally no upside to keeping the hostages, was all of Gaza destroyed worth it to get a few thousand terrorists back from Israeli prisons?
Israel should implement a death sentence for terrorists with blood on their hands to stop this madness of terrorists sacrificing their whole territory to get a bunch of prisoners with blood on their hands back.
What about the blood of countless innocent children and adults. How will israel wash a genocide off their hands? This isnt about hostages or hamas anymore and maybe it never has been.
This is pure hatred and bloodlust for another human being and i hope your god is proud of the evil it created.
Dont bother if you want to respond with deflection, bullshit facts or the classic antisemite/ hamas supporter card because that is all you have been trained to do.
Yeah yeah, same story as always. Shift blaim, deflect or do anything possible to not acknowledge innocent lives getting killed on this scale.
Even if that defies any logic or empathy for another human being. But i guess that is easy if you do not see the Palestinian as human but as an animal.
Funny how nazis thought the same for jewish people so they can slaughter them without remorse. And they got rightfully hated for it.
There was no war until Hamas started this. Israel was always ready for peace with Gaza, which could've led to peace with the WB and a Palestinian state.
All of this started when european zionist basterds came there and started mass killing and deporting people.
Don't blame desperate people for defending themselves when you stripped them of everything including their brothers and sisters.
You are here defending a genocide because (in your words) they did something on oct 7th. Israel has done that a thousand times worse both before and after that day for 70 years.
You and your country are a shame to the people that died during ww2.
All of this started when european zionist basterds came there and started mass killing and deporting people.
You do know the Zionists agreed to the 1947 UN partition, and not a single Arab from deported from anywhere until the Arabs rejected the plan and started the war.
Why would anyone in their right mind accept giving away the land that their parents and grandparents were born and buried.
They invited jewish people because nobody in the world wanted them and told them to come back home. Their generosity was met by backstabbing land grabbers. Of course they would reject a plan that is set up for them to lose.
The Arabs weren't asked by the British about who could come to the land, they certainly didn't invite anyone. The Arabs revolted in 1936-1939 in the Arab revolt and successfuly restricted Jewish immigration, that's why so many more Jews were killed during the Holocaust, they had no where to go.
You're spewing really low effort propaganda, it's not interesting to discuss tbh.
Maybe it is not interesting for you because you have not addressed the horrible genocide going on and keep deflecting to history or made up facts.
I know you have been trained to do so and I hope someone will pat you on the shoulder for it. You can skew the details, deflect, make up stats or keep blaiming hamas all you want.
At the end of the day the reality is that innocent people are dying, children and babies are dying and the ones left alive are in horrible conditions. No history, facts or hamas involvement will make that blood wash away and i hope everyone involved in this terrible act against humanity will suffer for it.
Keep excusing yourself for killing people, I hope your god is watching in shame because the dead jewish people from ww2 are definitely ashamed for what their survivors have become.
I'm not reading all that rambling pal, you're propoganding online with bullshit Palestinians invited Jews talking points, you showed your analysis skill is ground shallow
Israel should implement a death sentence for terrorists with blood on their hands to stop this madness of terrorists sacrificing their whole territory to get a bunch of prisoners with blood on their hands back.
We could safely count on Israel to implement that in a fair and balanced way - since settler terrorists are barely prosecuted, and Palestinians having a 99.74% conviction rate.
Just as home demolitions theoretically applies to both Jewish and Palestinian terrorist - but not a single Jewish Israeli terrorist home has ever been demolished. But not from a lack of Jewish Israeli terrorists.
That has never been the case. There’s been impunity for abuse and inequality before the law ever since the founding of the state.
So I don’t trust the current government to do it fairly - but no previous government would be better. They all perpetuated the same ‘separate and unequal’ legal systems. Every government since 1967
Approximately 94% of all investigation files monitored by Yesh Din concerning Israelis’ offenses against Palestinians in the West Bank (“settler violence”) opened by the Israel Police in the past twenty years ended without an indictment.
Analysis of the investigation files opened into offenses committed by Israelis against Palestinians reflects that the police failed in the investigation of 81% of the cases.
Since 2005, just 3% of the investigation files opened into ideologically motivated crimes committed against Palestinians led to full or partial convictions.
Data show a dramatic decline in the trust Palestinian victims of crime have in Israeli law enforcement authorities. In 2024, 66% of Palestinian crime victims chose not to exercise their right to file a police complaint against Israelis who harmed them.
If you want to look at anecdotal cases, there's plenty of those - like the hundreds of participants in the various pogroms, or the settler who - with soldier buddies - went into Al Tuwani and shot someone point blank.
If Israel wanted to address this, they could. They could treat settler terrorists the way they do Palestinian terrorists. What do you think would happen if an armed mob came to a settlement to torch it?
Meanwhile I've yet to hear of a single case of Palestinian terrorist who was convicted and jailed by any Palestinian government.
Palestinian security forces extensively cooperate with the IDF. See, for example, the recent PA operations in Jenin.
In fact, the PA security forces does more to stop Palestinian terror than the IDF does to stop settler terrorists. Often, as we know, the IDF accompanies and protects settler terrorists as they attack Palestinians.
This also isn't anything new - the 1984 Karp Report outlines how settlers attack Palestinians with impunity, and they are not held accountable. This is before the first intifada.
To the contrary, they are usually financially rewarded.
You mean as opposed to Israeli settler terrorists, who have their settlements supported by the government, issued weapons by the government, and where there's NGOs to support them in the very rare cases they are convicted?
I'm aware of the Yeah Din report, and while I agree Israel recently doesn't do enough, I also don't trust this report at all. Yesh Din is a foreign sponsored NGO who has every incentive to cherry pick cases to make it seem like it's 6%. This does not change anything about my argument either, people know they will be held accountable for hurting Palestinians, even if the process is flawed, ad evident by the dozens of Jewish terrorists serving life as we speak.
I'm aware of the Yeah Din report, and while I agree Israel recently doesn't do enough, I also don't trust this report at all.
Yes of course. Everyone is lying.
The data on indictments and convictions is public. So there's not some secret amount that has been convicted.
This does not change anything about my argument either, people know they will be held accountable for hurting Palestinians, even if the process is flawed, ad evident by the dozens of Jewish terrorists serving life as we speak.
Lol.
Can you point to the 'dozens of Jewish terrorists serving life'?
As far as I am aware, there's some very few - maybe even only one serving life.
How many people were arrested after the multiple Huwwara pogroms? What about the Turmus Ayya pogrom? What about the settler who shot Zakaria Adria point blank in Al Tuwani?
Again, if Israel wanted to stop settler terror, they could just treat it as they do Palestinian terror.
Like I said, what do you think would happen if an armed mob of a hundred people came to torch an Israeli settlement?
Let's not forget that Israel is running two separate and unequal criminal systems in the West Bank - one has a ~50% conviction rate in the few cases people are even tried, the other has a 99.74% conviction rate. I'll leave it to you to figure out which one settlers are subject to, and which one Palestinians are subject to.
> Again, if Israel wanted to stop settler terror, they could just treat it as they do Palestinian terror.
22 Palestinians died between 2010-2019 according to Al Jazeera from settler violence. While bad it's not nearly close to hundreds of Israeli civilians killed in that period. Contrary to what anti Israel people say, this isn't as rampant a problem as ya'll try to paint it.
I'm also not very interested with the fairness of occupation judiciary, the occupation needs to end with a bipartisan peace deal, that will never happen with the continued radicalization of both sides, and delusion that the other side will ever go away, also practiced by both sides. At least the Israeli side agreed to a 2 state solution before, the Palestinian side has never accepted any deal.
22 Palestinians died between 2010-2019 according to Al Jazeera from settler violence. While bad it's not nearly close to hundreds of Israeli civilians killed in that period. Contrary to what anti Israel people say, this isn't as rampant a problem as ya'll try to paint it.
Since October 7th 2023, more Palestinians have been killed by settlers, than settlers killed by Palestinians in the West Bank.
As it comes to people injured - settlers have injured more than an order of magnitude more people than vice vers:
In the past 10 months, it has recorded more than 1,100 settler attacks against Palestinians. At least 10 Palestinians have been killed and more than 230 injured by settlers since 7 October, it says.
At least five settlers have been killed and at least 17 injured by Palestinians in the West Bank over the same time frame, OCHA says.
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c207j6wy332o
I'm also not very interested with the fairness of occupation judiciary, the occupation needs to end with a bipartisan peace deal, that will never happen with the continued radicalization of both sides, and delusion that the other side will ever go away, also practiced by both sides
Meanwhile, Israel could make them equal before the law in the West Bank. Just make the settlers subject to the same laws and courts as the Palestinians - would just take a quick Knesset action.
Israel, of course, doesn't want that - which is why the Knesset has renewed the 'separate and unequal' legal system every five years since 1967.
At least the Israeli side agreed to a 2 state solution before, the Palestinian side has never accepted any deal.
The Arab Peace Initiative somehow doesn't count? Lol.
Now, can you name a single year since 1967 when Israel did not expand settlements in the West Bank?
Now, can you name a single year since 1967 when Israel did not expand settlements in the West Bank?
Would be nice if Palestinians didn't give right wingers in Israel a reason to say they are not interested in peace and land grab and transfer is the only way. Palestinians are really playing a short sighted silly game, they can really win in optics if they said they are willing to sue for peace, instead they sell their citizens the delusion of destroying Israel and keep educating for terror.
The Arab Peace Initiative somehow doesn't count? Lol.
It was pretty similar to the Clinton Parameters deal in 2000, it's a shame Arafat walked away from it. If it didn't involve mass amounts of Palestinians getting Israeli citizenship, it's a good platform for peace, but it seems like the Arab states disagreed amongst themselves even then. As usual, it's more rhetoric and posturing than a serious deal.
I'm proposing a death penalty for any nationality motivated murder. There won't be that many on the Israeli side as you suggest, between 2010-2019 there were 22 Palestinians killed by settlers according to Al Jazeera.
Just because I speak pro Palestinian dose that make me a Hamas friend ? In various other comments I called the terrorist and I mentioned how I am not a fanboy myself.
But thank you for proving my point that a lot of the Israelis are completely indoctrinated by their government to make a connection of :
Pro Palestinian ( aka anti war crime and anti genocide ) = Hamas sympathizer
Hamas sympathizer = terrorist supporter
Pro Palestinian = terrorist supporter
This is basically your view. Think about it and try to be genuinely open about it
There is already a death sentence. The issue is not destroying terrorists. The issue is the mass murder of women, children and the elderly in Gaza. Along with the complete destruction of basic infrastructure in Gaza that’s millions rely on. The world isn’t black and white no matter how hard you try to twist it.
Meanwhile hundreds of Palestinian terrorists with blood on their hands got welcomed in Gaza with cheers of victory, over a 100 prisoners for 1 innocent civilian hostage rates. This is basically the only reason Hamas holds hostages, what's the point?
Around 200 people were killed during the March of Return and over 9,000 injured. Name a mass casualty event for Israeli citizens before 10/7….
While we’re at it, total the amount of innocent killed on both sides BEFORE 10/7 and Israeli deaths are still nowhere close to the deaths of Palestinians. You don’t know what you are talking about.
Around 200 people were killed during the March of Return and over 9,000 injured. Name a mass casualty event for Israeli citizens before 10/7….
And they burnt tires while producing cover for people to rush the border, we've seen what a successful broken border looks like. You don't get to just walk over a country's border because you want to.
While we’re at it, total the amount of innocent killed on both sides BEFORE 10/7 and Israeli deaths are still nowhere close to the deaths of Palestinians. You don’t know what you are talking about.
I'd hope they won't ever be equal, I hope Palestinians extremists deciding to wake up some day and go murder Jewish civilians in a bar in Tel Aviv are always over representated in death counts.
This is literally a definition of terrorism: "Terrorism, in its broadest sense, is the use of violence against non-combatants to achieve political or ideological aims"
“Return the hostages and eliminate Hamas, and other options will open up for you — including going to other places in the world for those who wish. The alternative is complete destruction and devastation.””
Complete admission of ethnic cleansing if the millions of people in Gaza don’t do exactly what Israel demands. Utter depravity and sickening that so many support this.
So... how does that make Israel any different from all the countries around it who had their jewish populations "decide to leave" over a course of 10 years?
10/7 was an atrocity as well. That’s why I hate seeing a 10/7 happen almost everyday in Gaza since Israel began their bombardment and are now continuing to do so.
Generally, no one uses those terms when wars are happening. But apparently, the Jewish state is held to an entirely different standard, while the Palestinians are held to their own entirely different standard.
In general, that is correct. If you are fighting a war, even against a stronger opponent, I have yet to see people on the losing side call it a genocide or ethnic cleansing.
And based on that logic the genocide of the Palestinians isn't happening? And not because of the videos, courts, witness accounts.. Everything. "But because the losers always say this."
Israel and the USA disagree with everything the palestians say about genocide but will happily quote the "Hamas lead health ministry" on their recorded dead because they know they're underestimated it.
Well... losing a war isn't equivalent to genocide.
Take a look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_genocides. A lot of genocides occur during a war...
Same with ethnic cleansing... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_cleansing_campaigns
And surely I don't have to point out how absurd it is to suggest "war crimes" don't happen during "wars".
Wtf are you even saying? What is this argument? A war is occurring, therefore genocide and ethnic cleansing can't occur? Even if this is the very first war in history where genocide and ethnic cleansing are occurring, that just makes it a world first. It doesn't mean reality and words shift to suddenly make it not real.
That's great. Read the conversation again and reply with something that's relevant. Ask ChatGPT what's going on if you really still can't understand. Do it, really.
Gaza is not the West Bank. But if you are referring to the barriers there, those were erected after a wave of suicide bombers came from the West Bank into Israel during the second intifada.
But if you are referring to the barriers there, those were erected after a wave of suicide bombers came from the West Bank into Israel during the second intifada.
No, I am referring to the never-ending illegal land grabs for settlements, and the impunity with which settlers can attack Palestinains. Often protected by the IDF when they go on their terror rampages.
What happened, for example, 1967 to 1987? Settlement land grabs, military rule, and impunity for settler terror. Just like today.
If Israel wanted to build a border wall, it should be - you know - along the border. Not 85% of it inside the border.
Justifying what? I don't care much about Israel or Palestine, its like watching 2 villians fight, cold blooded terrorists and poor citizens vs cold blooded genociders and passive citizens. HAMAS did what they wanted and now Israel does it. Neither side obviously cares about the other.
It’s totally fine to have a bad stand on Hamas. I ain’t a fanboy either.
But I think it’s actually morally wrong to not criticize Israel wayyyy harder. They are supposed to be the „good guys“ and now they are acting worse than the terrorist
I thought it was only considered cleansing if it was through killing but I see expulsion and similar methods also falls under the same category.
"the expulsion, imprisonment, or killing of an ethnic minority by a dominant majority in order to achieve ethnic homogeneity".
The only side that destroyed the ceasefire is Israel. But the facts trigger you so you have to lie. The 2nd phase framework was agreed to by Hamas and needed to be further negotiated. I’m sure you were complaining then too. But now Israel is bombing like they love to do.
If Palestine actually wanted a ceasefire then there would be one by now. There is no ceasefire because Palestine does not care enough about peace to agree to one.
So you can stop pretending like you care about Palestinian children. Palestine already has.
There is no ceasefire because Palestine doesn't want one. It's that simple.
It's truly sickening to watch a nation sacrifice its own children by refusing to accept a ceasefire, but that's the choice Palestine has made. They simply don't care enough about their own children to accept a ceasefire.
Yes, it is truly tragic that Palestine still has not agreed to a ceasefire. A sickening and bloodthirsty choice from a sickening and bloodthirsty nationalist ideology.
Deflect & deny. Deflect & deny. That's all you ever do. Won't ever discuss or argue the point at hand. Can't ever because you know that you are arguing for us morally indefensible.
Tell Palestinians to accept a ceasefire. Nothing is stopping them from doing so immediately, except for their own insatiable national thirst for Jewish blood.
And they'll likely faces total destruction if they do hand over the hostages, as Israel will point out Hamas still exists so is therefore still a threat.
When loving the sound of your own voice meets the gradual realization that Israel cannot simply defeat Hamas..
If the Israelis thought they could achieve victory, they wouldn’t waste their time making statements or threats- you don’t see a hunter threatening ducks or deer.
There seems to be no benefit whatsoever for Hamas to continue to hold the hostages at this point. What exactly is stopping them from handing them over to avoid more death and destruction?
Multiple incorrect premises. You could have said this the day before the original ceasefire was in place. Going beyond the immediate benefits like having hundreds of the Palestinian hostages freed, not just having Gaza carved up however netenyahu wants is a priority for Hamas.
I would hope after hearing every Israeli politician and every other American one say they will finish “Hamas”, you would understand what turning over the hostages unconditionally would mean for Gaza.
Turning over the hostages immediately at this point would mean the end of the war. Of course at the beginning that wouldn’t have been enough, but Gaza and Hamas have paid enough of a price for the war to end once they give back the hostages. Give back the hostages, then the reason for the war suddenly evaporates.
The primary objective for most of the Israelis supporting the war is getting the hostages back. Once they get them back, popular support for the war disappears and suddenly the lives of soldiers are being thrown away for nothing. That wouldn’t stand, so peace would follow soon after.
Hamas doesn’t really have any right to negotiate for the hostages’ release. Release the hostages without preconditions and then there’ll be peace. Don’t, and see yet more destruction.
I think that you are either being foolishly naive or intellectually dishonest, Netanyahu has already said that he will keep attacking no matter what, and Israel throughly violated the previous ceasefire. You are claiming that they should trust on the good will of a country that invaded and bombed Syria for no reason.
Tell me what Hamas gains by keeping the hostages. Israel has said they’ll level Gaza if the hostages aren’t returned. What makes Hamas think Israel won’t, and what could Hamas gain that’s more important than Gaza still standing?
It appears there is little incentive for Hamas to release the hostages, as Israel is likely to continue its attacks on Gaza regardless. Furthermore, with the Israeli government reportedly stating that their objective involves the ethnic cleansing of Gaza, Hamas finds itself with no compelling reason to proceed with such a release.
There is a reason why Israel wanted to keep extending phase one without starting phase two, so once the hostages were free they could keep bombing.
If there’s a chance the war will end after the hostages are released, as opposed to a guarantee that Gaza will be destroyed if they’re not, I’d most certainly release for the hostages for a chance at peace. Hamas just shows once again that they don’t care about the well being of the Palestinians under their control at all.
You persist in pretending that Israel has any genuine interest in peace. If that were the case, they would have adhered to the phases of negotiation. Time and again, Netanyahu has made it abundantly clear that he prioritizes continued conflict over resolving the issue of hostages. Their agreements to hostage exchanges or ceasefires have only come under external or internal pressure.
To assume that relying on the goodwill of genocidal individuals amounts to anything other than suicide is either a profound display of naivety or a deliberate act of willful ignorance.
They want their hostages back and don’t want to give Hamas the ability to just attack them again whenever they want. Who would?
Tell me, what does Hamas get out of not giving back the hostages at this point? Israel has not announced not only that it would continue bombing but also annex portions of Gaza until it gets its hostages back? What exactly is the benefit of keeping the hostages?
Israel has also said that even if they surrender they will ethnic cleanse the land, what's the benefit of returning hostages? When your options are not returning the hostages and suffering or returning the hostages and suffering what is the incentive to do anything at all?
You are pretending that the Israeli government is a rational actor instead of an expansionist genocidal one.
I mean, if we assume the ethnic cleansing is going to happen regardless (it won’t either way, of course, but just assuming), it sounds like the options are either give back the hostages and end the war and prevent more death and lose all the land, or not give back the hostages and continue the war and cause even more death and destruction and lose all the land. So it sounds like, as has always been the case, Hamas wants to continue the war to get more Palestinians killed. If they cared about their own people, they’d give back the hostages.
That’s an impressive display of mental gymnastics to defend a government that disregards pre-established negotiations and commits war crimes. The options Israel presents are essentially: release the hostages, and we will kill you; or don’t release the hostages, and we will kill you. Israel is fully aware that this approach won’t secure the hostages’ release, and they appear more than willing to let them perish to justify continuing their assault on Palestinians.
I am done with this discussion, have a nice weekend.
That's not a credible position. Hamas already has negotiated for the hostages' release and trades have been carried out.
Netanyahu has long claimed the destruction of Hamas as a primary goal. If that's not the case, Israel should be willing to enter phase 2 negotiations where it would agree to pull out and get hostages back in the process.
How is that not a credible position? The point is that if Hamas wants destruction to stop, they should hand over the hostages. A pretty simple and straightforward trade if they actually cared about the Palestinian people.
Israel shouldn’t have to pull out to get back the hostages. Once they get them back, they’ll pull out to end the war.
There is no offer on the table that says that the IDF will pull out if Hamas releases all hostages. You are making a claim about Israeli political pressures that may or may not work out.
It really shouldn’t be about what Israel should do but rather what Hamas should do. Will Israel stop after it gets its hostages back? Seems likely, considering that’s what the war’s about in the first place. Will the destruction stop? It’s far more likely the destruction will stop if Hamas gives back the hostages than in any other fashion.
That was after having to give up things apparently Israel found intolerable. Not sure why exactly it’s on Israel to show restraint at this point instead of Hamas just giving back all the hostages.
It is on Israel to be consistent. They are supposed to be the reasonable side. Either Israel cares for the hostages or not. I will not defend the actions of terrorists like Hamas. But I will also call into question Israeli action that puts their lives in further danger.
Pray tell me what being the reasonable side helped? During 10/7 Hamas made a point to go after the Israeli peace activists first. There is no benefit to moral superiority when most of the world (see this thread) is going to label you “genocider” anyway
I never said Hamas was reasonable. They are the logical consequence of decades of oppression and subjugation by Israel. Israel has the international backing by the “civilized” world and yet they have killed magnitudes more civilians than any Palestinian extremist group. People pretend Israel is reasonable. That was my point.
You seem to think because I understand all human beings would act similarly given the conditions in Gaza that I think it’s reasonable. That’s not the case. It is a fundamental truth that anybody put through what the Palestinians in Gaza have been put through would act unreasonable. They are being asked to reason with their destruction. Given that choice you would also act unreasonable. Especially after watching your family be buried under your home thanks to IDF bombs.
“It’s a fundamental truth” um…no? Like not at all actually? Surely we can agree the Holocaust was worse? I missed all those Jewish terrorists that raped all the German women…you live in North America on land that was actually ethnically cleansed…how many Indians have massacred your family?
They are in danger because they have been kidnapped, beaten, starved , and raped by hamas. Not because Israel is fighting back to secure them. Imagine telling a mother that she is the one causing her kidnapped children to be in danger because she is going after the gang members that stole them. Preposterous
The hostages are in danger because Hamas refuses to let them simply go home
Imagine a tornado is approaching, but your boss won’t let you leave work. Your wife calls "Honey, why aren’t you coming home?" "I want to, but my boss won’t let me." "But there’s a tornado coming!" "I know, and I’m terrified. But I’m not allowed to leave."
Are you in danger because of the tornado? Or because someone is forcing you to stay in harm’s way? If your free will has been taken then the only one causing the danger is the one who took it.
I have NEVER condones Hamas taking the hostages. You are going at great lengths to argue against something I have never said. I am simply relaying what has happened. Israel destroyed the best path of returning all remaining hostages. I wish they were never taken. If you have a Time Machine let Israel know. Because they are actively going to great lengths to make sure the rest of the hostages never see their families again.
So you want there to be stipulations before the hostages are returned?? I thought you were for the immediate release of the hostages? Which one is it? Should hamas release them now or wait for Israel to agree to their demands?
Dude I can’t go back in time. I’m talking about the plan that was created to release the hostages. A plan was created (past tense) and Israel has destroyed it (present tense). I want the hostages returned and the people with the bombs are making that more difficult. The people holding the hostages agreed to a plan and Israel decided that plan was no good. Because they want to continue the war.
They don’t care about the hostages. I’m starting to think you don’t care about them either given your ignorance as to what the families of the hostages have been saying.
Ohh the plan!? I forgot about the plan! If only Israel would follow the plan the poor hostages would be safe and sound in their own beds with their own families. I had no idea about the plan, this changes things. It's definitely Israel's fault the hostages are in danger, thanks for showing me why.
I'm not mocking anything. I had no idea they were refusing to go along with the plan. Israel is placing its hostages in danger every day they delay this plan. Why would they be so stupid and ignore hama's demands, do they not want to secure the safety of the hostages?
Pretending what? I appreciate you taking the time to set the record straight for me. I had no idea it was Israel's fault the hostages weren't home yet and you've done a very good job of explaining why.
It is unreasonable to negotiate a ceasefire that contains the framework of releasing every hostage and then decide to renege and bomb civilians. The hostages lives are now in further danger thanks to Israel.
But not for the leadership. The leadership wants to eliminate any militant resistance movement and occupation/control over the sector. Israel never committed to getting the hostages back, and many of its ministers say that destroying Hamas is more important than getting back the hostages. In fact, they had a deal that was seeing the hostages released.
You have a bad habit of making costly assumptions. Even if Hamas is foolish enough to put gazas fate in the hands of Israeli society, the government is still free to carve up Gaza.
Hamas is still active, and Tony Blinken has said Hamas has completely replenished its fighters since Oct 7th. Advertising the end of the war is near while making sure another Oct 7th is not possible would be enough for plenty if not most of the general population.
Remember, the main reasons for the Israeli desire for a ceasefire is because some Israelis are in Gaza. Hell, there were large protests against the ceasefire while the Israelis were still held by Hamas.
Look at the West Bank. 40000+ Palestinians displaced, dozens shot dead including children, many houses and roads destroyed just this past month. Israeli society stands for that just fine. You are asking Hamas why don’t they let Gaza turn into the West Bank.
They’re in a very tough spot. They can’t do much more than what they did for 15 months prior to the ceasefire, keep their hostages alive and hope negotiations lead to an ok outcome soon
Why would negotiations lead to an outcome better than total destruction at this point? The "get the world's sympathy" method is no longer viable with Trump in change of the US.
A rational actor would be negotiating surrender terms at this point.
You're missing one crucial point though: Israel has been demanding the complete displacement of Gazans out of Gaza since the 50s. They tried multiple times. This is not their first time trying it, though it is their bloodiest. Hamas knows that if they just roll over that Gaza will be ethnically cleansed. Their point is similar to that of the Viet Cong: make the war as expensive as possible for Israel on every front and try to persevere in the face of the seeming endless firepower and in the face of certain genocide. Where that goes is a question mark, but most nations that behaved like Israel ended up being defeated and either broke down or retracted completely.
You're missing one crucial point though: Israel has been demanding the complete displacement of Gazans out of Gaza since the 50s. They tried multiple times.
When did they do this?
Hamas knows that if they just roll over that Gaza will be ethnically cleansed.
To where? There's no receiving country?
make the war as expensive as possible for Israel on every front and try to persevere in the face of the seeming endless firepower and in the face of certain genocide.
I'm confused: is this death people are fearing or moving?
Either way, Hamas isn't really making the war that much more expensive for Israel. It has total air superiority and has a total blockade at this point.
but most nations that behaved like Israel ended up being defeated and either broke down or retracted completely.
Israeli government officials have openly been wanting to move Gazans to Egypt for years. This is common knowledge, it’s crazy to me that people are still trying to pretend this sentiment doesn’t exist. Hell, even Trump has espoused this sentiment within the past few months. How can you still deny that this is genuinely what the Israeli government and the US want?
I love how even an AI generated video posted by Israel’s greatest ally, the US president, of Gaza being colonised and inhabited by Israelis isn’t enough evidence of intent for you. Do you need Netanyahu to send you a signed letter?
Over the course of this war you can find many statements by Israeli officials, but they did this previously. The demand to displace people to the Sinai was what made Egypt switch over to being communist under Nasser.
To where? There's no receiving country?
Either extermination or they will be distributed around. The US can put pressure on many Arab nations to receive bits and pieces of the population. Everyone is resisting it so far, but if the resistance surrenders completely then it will be much easier to execute.
I'm confused: is this death people are fearing or moving?
Both. But the thing is that many Palestinians chose death over displacement. Many continue to do so, which is why the North of Gaza saw so much carnage for so long yet remained populated.
Don't think this is historically correct either.
Nazi Germany is a good example. This happened to Andalusia when it started engaging in racist politics internally. Similarly, the US is now going through the retraction phase too. No nation that went full-tilt genocidal remained coherent or intact.
What makes you believe Hamas was shooting for that? 17 months of live streamed genocided showed them the international community and law has abandoned Palestine, I don’t think anyone who has even briefly watched the conflict would say the 10000th murdered Palestinian baby being live-streamed would matter.
“With trump in charge”? You do understand biden/Harris were unwilling to even temporarily block aid to Israel or hold them accountable for their most grievous warcrimes to gain more votes, right? This is a bipartisan genocide, brother.
Surrender in what sense? Disarming+inprisonment while allowing Israel to turn Gaza into the West Bank? Over the past 2 months 40000 have been displaced, dozens shot to death, dozens/hundreds kidnapped, many roads, homes destroyed for no reason. What do you picture happening in Gaza?
As I originally said negotiations are the way to go.
Obviously as a American I don’t expect you to fully understand, but ending the fight now unconditionally “to stop more bloodshed” would effectively be ending the Palestinians ability for liberation. If the Palestinian people wanted Hamas to unconditionally surrender, we’d know.
“With trump in charge”? You do understand biden/Harris were unwilling to even temporarily block aid to Israel or hold them accountable for their most grievous warcrimes to gain more votes, right? This is a bipartisan genocide, brother.
Biden wasn't running his own population transfer campaign.
Surrender in what sense, and for what? Disarming+inprisonment while allowing Israel to turn Gaza into the West Bank?
Honestly, that sounds like a life upgrade, not a life downgrade.
What do you picture happening to Gaza?
Agreed with you. West Bank style occupation. A lot better than the present situation.
Obviously as a American I don’t expect you to fully understand, but ending the fight now unconditionally “to stop more bloodshed” would effectively be ending the Palestinians chance for liberation.
Depending on your definition of liberation, the odds of that happening are somewhere between zero and approximately zero.
Yes, he was.
https://reason.com/2025/01/27/trump-revives-bidens-failed-proposal-to-remove-palestinians-from-gaza/
“Biden only murdered the Palestinians, trump may have gotten a brief ceasefire but he wants to enact bidens displacement plan that is doomed to fail”
If you are going to discuss what’s “best” for the Palestinian people while being so feeble minded, the very least you could do is have a basic level of understanding of the situation. Filthy Americans from the comfort of their homes telling subjugated people to graciously accept slow genocide while having nothing between their ears is really something.
So they have all the people locked in a camp aaaand… are just going to kill them all and we got here because these people’s grand-grand parents all were put in a camp and killed….. wtf
So the US should “level everything” in Israel and Palestine? Am I understanding your suggestion correctly? Or just millions of Palestinians because you’re a bigoted POS?
Wl that's more or less what gaza tried to do. Hence why they are now dealing with the consequences. Kne thing we can agree upon is Trump's bold vision for peace in the region. Everyone wins.
One way to find out. They can release the hostages and hope that israel backs down. Or they can not release the hostages and Israel DEFINITELY won’t back down.
Pretty simple calculus really.
Also, they should really just fucking release the hostages already. And if the world really cared about dead Gaza civilians as much as they pretend to, they would be encouraging the same.
As much as Israel complains about Palestinian propaganda, we really don't have much footage at all about life in Gaza right now or at any point of the war. Israel is really keeping a tight leash on comms despite what we do see being horrifying.
we really don't have much footage at all about life in Gaza right now or at any point of the war
????
Palestinian vloggers and countless random accounts on social media from Gaza have been covering things including daily lives and struggle for water and food and even what it's like inside hospitals. Al Jazeera is in there too alongside one or two other Arab news channels that can provide a live broadcast from within Gaza. Israel imposed a total ban on foreign reporters coming into Gaza. If they allow them in, we wouldn't be having this conversation, but you can go look for Gazans on social media. Thousands are broadcasting their living hell.
Israel hits new targets in Gaza after ceasefire shattered 01:58Tel Aviv — Israel's defense minister threatened earlier this week to open "the gates of hell" in Gaza if Hamas refuses to meet Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's demands, and Israel has been delivering. At least 58 people were killed in a third consecutive night of airstrikes up and down the Palestinian territory, bringing the death toll to an estimated 500 people since the ceasefire was shattered with Tuesday's shock pre-dawn Israeli missile barrages, according to the enclave's Hamas-run Ministry of Health.
More than a dozen people were killed overnight in a strike on just one house, the home of the Mubarak family in the northern Gaza town of Beit Lahiya. They had gathered to mourn an earlier death. Survivors whisked the bodies of the dead to a hospital by ambulance and horse cart.
There were reports of fresh airstrikes early Thursday morning near Khan Younis and Rafah in the south of Gaza, near the border with Egypt.
Israel resumes ground operations in Gaza
The Israel Defense Forces confirmed Tuesday that it had also resumed ground operations in central Gaza, again dividing the strip into north and south along the Netzarim corridor and blocking movement across the line. The IDF said it was also stationing a brigade of troops in the south, while airdropping fliers warning civilians to evacuate from areas around the entire Gaza border, which it warned would be turned back into combat zones.
Palestinians mourn loved ones killed in Israeli strikes, in Khan Younis A child looks on as people mourn Palestinians killed in Israeli strikes, at the European Hospital in Khan Younis, southern Gaza, March 20, 2025. Hatem Khaled/REUTERS "The IDF does not intend to harm you," a post by the IDF spokesman for Arab Media said on X. "For your safety it is forbidden to approach IDF forces in the defensive zone and in any place where they are deployed."
That message followed a severe threat from Israeli Defense Minister Israel Katz to the citizens of Gaza.
"Residents of Gaza, this is a final warning," he said in a video broadcast Wednesday afternoon. "If all the Israeli hostages are not released and Hamas is not eliminated from Gaza Israel will act with forces you have never known before. Take the advice of the U.S. President. Return the hostages and eliminate Hamas, and other options will open up for you — including going to other places in the world for those who wish. The alternative is complete destruction and devastation."
It appeared to be a threat of collective punishment against Gaza's civilian population for the actions of Hamas, which has long been designated a terrorist organization by Israel and the U.S.
Collective punishment is considered a war crime under the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court, though neither the U.S. nor Israel are signatories to that treaty.
U.S. strikes Houthis as Yemeni rebels fire missiles at Israel, U.S. ships
Israel's renewed bombing of Gaza has drawn fierce condemnation from most of the country's Arab neighbors, and renewed efforts by Houthi militants in Yemen to target Israel and ships in the Red Sea with missiles.
The Houthis claimed Thursday that they had fired a "hypersonic ballistic missile" at Israel before dawn - the second claimed launch in three days. The group said it had attempted to hit Ben Gurion international airport south of Tel Aviv, and air raid alarms shattered the peace many Israelis had grown accustomed to during two months of the ceasefire at 4 a.m. across the city and central Israel.
"A missile launched from Yemen was intercepted by the IAF (Israeli Air Force) prior to crossing into Israeli territory," the IDF said in a statement minutes after an all-clear was given. No damage was reported.
The Houthis also claimed to have targeted the USS Harry S. Truman aircraft carrier strike group and its warships in the Red Sea with drones and missiles, but the U.S. military said there were no impacts.
The U.S. has responded to the Houthis' resumption of rocket launches with strikes against the group. Overnight, the U.S. struck targets in Yemen's capital of Sanaa, according to Houthi-run Al Masirah TV. At least nine women and children were wounded in a residential neighborhood, a spokesperson for the Houthi-run Yemeni health ministry claimed in a post on X.
Aftermath of U.S. strikes in Sanaa People stand near buildings damaged by U.S. military strikes, in Sanaa, Yemen, March 20, 2025. Khaled Abdullah/REUTERS U.S. strikes also hit targets in southern Yemen, in a province known to have Houthi military sites and weapons warehouses.
President Trump had threatened on his Truth Social media platform that the group would "be completely annihilated."
Thursday morning, U.S. Central Command (CENTCOM) said in a post on X that American "forces continue 24/7 operations against the Iran-backed Houthis," sharing undated videos of U.S. fighter jets taking off from an aircraft carrier.
At least 31 people have been killed in Yemen by the U.S. airstrikes, according to Yemeni media reports.
"This is another example of the Houthi's complete and reckless disregard for the people of Yemen and aggression toward the humanitarian operations that help those in need," CENTCOM said. "The Houthis continue to violate international humanitarian law, as well as put aid workers and the Yemini people at risk. The Houthis care nothing for the Yemeni people."
Editor's note: This article previously cited a leaflet dropped by Israeli forces in Gaza, but CBS News understands that leaflet was dropped in January, not this week. The paragraph referencing the leaflet has been removed.
Ramy Inocencio is a CBS News foreign correspondent based in London, covering Europe and the Middle East. He joined the Network in 2019 as CBS News' Asia correspondent, based in Beijing and reporting across the Asia-Pacific, bringing two decades of experience working and traveling between Asia and the United States.
Of all the sources reporting on this story, 54% are right-leaning, 31% are left-leaning, and 15% are in the center. Read the full coverage analysis and compare how 20+ sources from across the political spectrum are covering this story.
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redelastic@reddit
It's unusual for genocidal intent to be so clearly expressed, yet we have many examples over the last 18 months from senior Israeli leaders of every level and political party.
Anyone pretending at this stage that this is anything other than collective punishment, war crimes and ethnic cleansing is either being intellectually dishonest or deluding themselves.
Simply put: if you support Israel's actions in Gaza, you support the mass killing of children.
Try to obfuscate and find justification all you like: this is what you support.
Dry-Season-522@reddit
"Give us our people back or we'll hit you with everything we have." "LOL NO the rules (that we don't follow) say you have to only fight our soldiers and since we don't mark our soldiers as soldiers you can't shoot back lololol"
This is global FAFO.
Unable_Duck9588@reddit
You can’t fafo away dead children, especially when there was an agreement for the hostages that Israel has always sabotaged.
It’s easy for people like you to talk shit from across the globe, but these are real people and they are the ones that will suffer, both Israelis and Palestinians.
But something tells me you don’t care.
NuggetoO@reddit
>both Israelis and Palestinians.
Exactly , why won't hamas release the hostages and end this bloodshed already.
actsqueeze@reddit
Why won’t Israel end their 58 year long illegal occupation?
NuggetoO@reddit
Is that why hamas took the civilians hostage, because they were on the wrong land? Would a native American be justified in kidnapping your family and holding them hostage?
actsqueeze@reddit
Wait, if a Native American in the 1800’s killed a European that, in your opinion, would mean that manifest destiny was totally okay and it was all the Native Americans’ fault?
NuggetoO@reddit
You are saying that Hamas took hostages because Israel is illegally occupying their land. You are also illegally occupying native american lands. I'm not talking 1800, I'm saying right now. By your own logic any native would be justified performing violence against you and your family. Or does that only work on jews?
actsqueeze@reddit
Do you know anything about international law?
Israel is currently, and has been for over half a century, illegally occupying Palestine.
It’s the longest military occupation in modern history
NuggetoO@reddit
Do you know anything about international law?
America is currently, and has been for over half a century, illegally occupying Native American land.
Did you forget that you also live on stolen land or something lol
actsqueeze@reddit
The USA committed genocide against Native Americans and stole their land.
Israel is currently committing genocide and stealing Palestinian land.
Do you acknowledge this reality?
NuggetoO@reddit
Now that we're on the same page. I don't mind answering questions by the way, that's healthy dialog. It only seems like when I ask mine you're less hesitant so I'll try asking a few more again
Was hamas justified in taking the hostages it took on October 7th for Israel's crimes against Palestinian people?
Do you think hamas should release the hostages without any further delay with or without the deal they made with Isreal actually taking place?
actsqueeze@reddit
Yes, and no.
Palestinians have a legal right to self defense against an illegal occupation and apartheid.
Israel, as the perpetrator of the illegal occupation, doesn’t.
That being said, Hamas would not be justified in harming or mistreating the hostages in any way.
NuggetoO@reddit
Would you call the events of October 7th to be self defense?
Israelis as a whole, which is 21% Arab, aren't allowed self defense because they are occupiers. The people who were massacred on October 7th in your mind should have not fought back got it.
They are justified in kidnapping but not harming. Can I ask you something, if someone kidnapped your family member is that harming then?
actsqueeze@reddit
I don’t condone the violence against civilians on 10/7, but according to international law Palestine has a right to self defense.
Do you not see that 58 years of land theft and apartheid caused 10/7? Do you understand cause and effect?
Of course kidnapping is harmful, Israel should have thought about that before bulldozing Palestinians homes for the last several decades and torturing their children in military prisons.
The ICJ has ruled Israel is guilty of apartheid and that the settlements are illegal. How can you possibly not understand that the apartheid state are the bad guys?
There’s never been a country in the history of the world that stole land and committed apartheid that were the good guys
BehemothDeTerre@reddit
You're a complete monster, and an hypocrite. That's like saying the US deserved 9/11.
actsqueeze@reddit
No, it’s like saying the IRA committing terrorism was the fault of the British, it’s a sociological perspective. The oppressors are the root of the problem.
People that are brutally oppressed for decades will lash out violently. It’s actually understandable if you see the world in more than black and white.
Comparing it to 9/11 is apples and oranges. Apartheid is one of the worst types of discrimination. If you can’t see that the victims of apartheid are going to resort to violence then I don’t think we’re ever gonna see eye to eye.
What’s crazy to me is that you seem to acknowledge that Israel is committing these crimes against humanity yet you still fail to see how that’s fueling the violence
BehemothDeTerre@reddit
What's crazy to me is people embracing terrorism. And hypocritically so, as the US has engaged in plenty of reprehensible actions that could be used to justify 9/11.
The victims of 9/11 aren't likely to be the perpetrators of those reprehensible actions, however. Just like the victims of October the 7th aren't the perpetrators of the nakba.
Violence aimed at civilians is never OK. That's not "seeing things in black and white", it's "not being an extremist".
Even a cause you believe is noble doesn't justify murder.
I wish your generation grew up on Star Trek: TNG, rather than Tiktok.
actsqueeze@reddit
Israel just killed over a hundred children in a matter of hours, they are the terrorists
BehemothDeTerre@reddit
No, your idols still are. Words have meaning, regardless of what Hamasniks would prefer.
actsqueeze@reddit
The side that has killed tens of thousands of children, on purpose. Is guilty of apartheid as per the World Court, and has been stealing land for 58 straight years, are not the bad guys?
Consider this. Russia are the bad guys right? Israel has killed 6 times more children than Russia
https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/children-women-death-toll-in-israel-war-on-gaza-6-times-higher-than-russia-ukraine-war/3146398
In fact, Israel has killed more children than in any conflict this century!
https://www.vaticannews.va/en/world/news/2024-11/gaza-war-deaths-exceed-44-thousand-over-13-thousand-children.html
“According to Australian human rights lawyer, Chris Sidoti, ‘the number of children killed is the greatest number of any conflict in this century’ in addition to the many children ‘wounded and affected by deaths of parents, siblings, grandparents, loss of limbs, traumatizing experiences, multiple displacement from their homes...affecting a larger number of children than any modern warfare has experienced.’”
Israel is significantly worse than even Putin, consider that. You are on the wrong side of history, I promise you.
BehemothDeTerre@reddit
If blind tribalism, obscurantism and theocracy become the new order, if humanity regresses to a prior state, maybe.
I'll still adamantly refuse to embrace theocracy or the slaughter of civilians for political purposes.
actsqueeze@reddit
No one’s asking you to embrace theocracy just to stand against genocide
BehemothDeTerre@reddit
I'll never stand for genocide, sorry. That's your choice, not mine.
NuggetoO@reddit
I agree that all of that is bad and needs to stop but that doesn't justify taking innocent people hostage. I'm just not the kind of person that would ever condone violence against innocent people no matter the justifications.
As I've said America has committed the same kind of genocide against native Americans and they could come lay vengeance upon you and your loved ones in much the same way you feel all Israelis deserve. The sin of living on stolen land was all the people of Oct 7th committed, many peace activist that worked on the border. They didn't bulldoze Palestinian homes. Neither did the family dogs they shot or the Thai workers they hacked to bits with a rusty hoe, or the festival goers who were gunned down at a peace rave. If that's what you call justified defense then you are no better than them.
If you really are American I'm glad you've at least made it known you support Hamas’s "defense" of Palenstine. Easier for them to keep tabs on yall.
NuggetoO@reddit
Yes and I don't support it
redelastic@reddit
They support genocide. They just don't want to say.
Dry-Season-522@reddit
So the land should go back to... Egypt?
actsqueeze@reddit
The West Bank, East Jerusalem and Gaza are Palestine, not Egypt. Do you not know anything about the Israel/Palestine conflict?
Dry-Season-522@reddit
Bro they were literally egypt if you look back far enough. Or do you think land claims only apply to narrow periods that make you right? I steal your wallet, someone steals it from me, I can demand it back because if we ignore the time I stole it from you then it's legitimately my wallet.
actsqueeze@reddit
Oh right, that’s flawless logic, actually, why don’t we just give it back to the Roman Empire.
Dry-Season-522@reddit
Sounds good.
NuggetoO@reddit
He just inadvertently said to give the land back to the jews 😂
redelastic@reddit
False antisemitism claim - bingo!
NuggetoO@reddit
What are some other good ones so that I can fill out my board?
BehemothDeTerre@reddit
We're not talking about individuals, we're talking about governments.
If North Korea decided that South Korea was an "occupier", does that mean it's totally ok for them to kill South Koreans and expect they won't defend themselves?
Every single country in the world would've defended itself after October the 7th, and no amount of "but 1948!" will change that. Nobody's going to let themselves get killed because their ancestors did something wrong to someone that might or might not be the ancestor of the assassin.
Israel shouldn't have been created, but now it exists. Generations have lived their whole lives there. You're not talking about removing colonists by now, you're talking about removing natives.
(and even if it was about removing colonists, violence against civilians would still not be the way to go about it - but I'll save the "ends don't justify the means" lesson for later, don't want to risk overloading you)
Dry-Season-522@reddit
They literally withdraw from Gaza, and the response was that they formed a government with the explicit purpose of killing all the jews.
What more is there to do? Dig a ditch, kneel before it, and let the arab world walk behind them with sharpened blades?
actsqueeze@reddit
Israel is illegally occupying Palestine, that is a legal fact as per the World Court in The Hague.
It’s a legal fact, your position is irrelevant
The ICJ has also clearly ruled that Israel is guilty of apartheid.
Why are you defending an apartheid state?
anonymosoctopus@reddit
Genuinely, when you say the ICJ deemed it an apartheid are you referring to the article 3 ruling or was there a more recent one?
Article 3 isn’t the same as apartheid. For example, all apartheid is a breach of article 3 but not all breaches of article 3 amount to apartheid or even segregation.
actsqueeze@reddit
Their advisory opinion last summer.
https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/07/19/world-court-finds-israel-responsible-apartheid
anonymosoctopus@reddit
Yeah I’m fairly certain that’s just a possible interpretation of the findings as article 3 of CERN means that apartheid might be taking place as a breaching of article 3 is a criteria for apartheid.
Here’s the transcript of the findings from the ICJ website
https://www.icj-cij.org/node/204176
If you (control + f) for apartheid you’ll find that it’s only mentioned in closing statements after the findings are made with some of the individual judges stating that the findings here amount to apartheid while others disagree. They haven’t actually voted on it as a court or found there to be apartheid present as a court. Yet.
This doesn’t mean there isn’t apartheid either though. They just haven’t investigated and decided as a court whether there is or not.
actsqueeze@reddit
Why would you only check the summary and not the entire advisory opinion? The only ones not interpreting it to mean that Israel is guilty of apartheid are pro-Israel apartheid apologists
https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/07/experts-hail-icj-declaration-illegality-israels-presence-occupied
“The Court added that Israel’s legislation and measures violate the international prohibition on racial segregation and apartheid.”
From the link I posted above by Human Rights Watch:
“In a historic ruling the International Court of Justice has found multiple and serious international law violations by Israel towards Palestinians in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including, for the first time, finding Israel responsible for apartheid. The court has placed responsibility with all states and the United Nations to end these violations of international law. The ruling should be yet another wake up call for the United States to end its egregious policy of defending Israel’s oppression of Palestinians and prompt a thorough reassessment in other countries as well.”
The entire opinion:
https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/186/186-20240719-adv-01-00-en.pdf
anonymosoctopus@reddit
Yes. It’s referring to article 3 of CERD where it says it ‘violates the international prohibition on racial segregation and apartheid’. That is literally part of the definition of CERD article 3.
As I stated previously, this doesn’t necessarily mean that apartheid or segregation is taking place. What it means is that there are individual racially discriminatory practices going on that would not look unfamiliar in an apartheid or segregation environment but the scale or scope of them need to be assessed if it is segregation or apartheid or neither.
I thought this would be apparent as the ruling just states it violates article 3 of CERD without mentioning what part is violated. Even if you thought that a breach of article 3 had to be either segregation or apartheid or both the ruling doesn’t specify which one.
The full ruling you linked backs up my argument between paragraphs 223 and 229.
Even more, if they had found apartheid they would have used either the Rome Statute of the ICC or the International Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the Crime of Apartheid and not article 3 of CERD.
actsqueeze@reddit
Yes, it does necessarily mean apartheid is taking place. Breaking article 3 means they’re guilty of apartheid.
This article gets into what you’re talking about:
https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/09/19/world-court-findings-israeli-apartheid-wake-call
“Though the court’s language is a compromise, limited to separation, the finding means that Israel is responsible for apartheid. Several judges, including Judge Nawaf Salam, the court’s president, and Judge Dire Tladi, a South African, made this clear in their separate declarations. Two of the ICJ’s 15 judges disagreed and said the court should not find apartheid. One of these, Judge Georg Nolte, asserted a standard of intent for apartheid that would be nearly impossible to prove, and said the court should not find racial segregation either.“
anonymosoctopus@reddit
That’s not the finding of the court though. That’s two judges whose opinions are that it is apartheid (one of whom is the president). Then two other judges stated their opinions that it isn’t apartheid (one of whom disagreed with the CERD ruling). None of this is in the full opinion of the court (that you linked) though as these are individual opinions and not part of the rulings. And it’s also an opinion in the latest article you linked.
I do admit that the wording is a bit awkward but again, they don’t specify what part of CERD article 3 is violated, they don’t use any of the conventional definitions for apartheid and more importantly, they weren’t even investigating it.
actsqueeze@reddit
The president states that the advisory opinion asserts that it’s apartheid, and there are only two dissenting opinions.
It’s rather clear, and I’m going to believe the legal experts over someone on Reddit
anonymosoctopus@reddit
In the link I shared, it mentions that the president shares additional views that in his opinion are relevant to the conclusions of the court. Again these opinions are missing from the full transcript you linked and so are ultimately irrelevant to the findings.
If it were clear, there would either have been a vote on it or they’d have used one of the definitions.
GR1ZZLYBEARZ@reddit
Where’s Palestine on the historical map again? Who was their founder? Where’s their capital? I don’t remember learning about any Palestine governed by Palestinians in history.
actsqueeze@reddit
Palestine is a territory now and it’s people have a right to self determination.
Self determination is a basic right under international law and Israel is depriving that right to Palestinians and has been for decades.
It’s the longest military occupation in modern history
GR1ZZLYBEARZ@reddit
Palestine is 2 territories with 2 governments, one of which is recognized and one of which is an internationally recognized terrorist organizationz
actsqueeze@reddit
Is that relevant to what I said?
GR1ZZLYBEARZ@reddit
Yes, because Gaza was supposed to be the example of Palestinian self determination. How can you defend Palestine as a state without realizing only one part is a part to the UN and the other ripped up all the existing deals. It’s totally pertinent, how do you think it’s not?
actsqueeze@reddit
But Gaza doesn’t have self-determination.
They’ve been illegally occupying since 1967.
Opening up an open air prison doesn’t give them self determination.
GR1ZZLYBEARZ@reddit
Except for the fact that Israel ceded all control of Gaza in 2005. Palestinians had free and fair elections. Israel built more barriers in response to the actions of Hamas. You’re ignoring a lot of context.
actsqueeze@reddit
You’re spreading misinformation and obvious propaganda.
If they ceded all control then how come Gazans weren’t even allowed to visit their loved ones in other parts of Palestine? How come they couldn’t fish in their own waters or fly on a plane to Istanbul for vacation? How come their drinking water was being controlled by Israel?
They built a fence around their open air prison and wouldn’t let them leave, how exactly is that freedom?
GR1ZZLYBEARZ@reddit
lol read more into their water. They over drilled against international experts advice, didn’t spend on infrastructure, siphoned donated marerials; opting for weapons and tunnels instead. They can fish in their own waters, they’re geographically surrounded by Israel and Egypt, their territorial waters are small because of the location. Same reason they can’t fish in Egyptian waters.
MechaAristotle@reddit
Do people need these arbitrary things to deserve rights and recognition? The native populations of the Americas and Australia didn't have what I think we'd call a capital, a 'founder' or were found on maps.
GR1ZZLYBEARZ@reddit
Secondly, there’s nothing arbitrary about those things. Who’s the government of Palestine? There isn’t one, there’s 2 and one nullified all international treaties and has done nothing to become part of the international community. Those are pretty big pieces of becoming a state.
GR1ZZLYBEARZ@reddit
lol look at the surrounding countries. are there Palestinians in Egypt? Syria? Lebanon? Yes. So why do they need another country? Some of those countries were created by the same process as Israel are they illegitimate stolen land states too?
LowCall6566@reddit
A little known guy Amin Al huseini, who personally visited concentration camps and still was against letting Jewish refugees in, is at the root of Palestinian movement
GR1ZZLYBEARZ@reddit
Lmao, the guy who went to Hitler for help with his Jew problems? You’re really funny, he wasn’t the elected official of anything. He murdered tons of innocent people though.
LowCall6566@reddit
He was a grand Mufti of Jerusalem. In the 30ies, he was probably the 4th most important religious leader among all sunni Muslims.
GR1ZZLYBEARZ@reddit
He went to Hitler to ask for help killing Jews that’s all people need to know. He started multiple riots with his rhetoric that caused the death of innocent Jews, he fled and hid multiple times instead of facing the consequences. Seems like not too much has changed.
Dry-Season-522@reddit
Okay "both sides bad." I'm still going to support Isael with tax dollars. ENjoy supporting your terrorists with petulance.
actsqueeze@reddit
Palestine aren’t committing any of those crimes that I mentioned, one side is clearly the oppressor
redelastic@reddit
So they should, it's not their land.
But it it still considered an illegal occupation by the ICJ.
Perhaps because of Israel controlling electricity, water, all imports, coastal waters, airspace, freedom of movement etc.
Dry-Season-522@reddit
And what makes it "their land?" It's EGYPT'S land, long before it was the palestinians.
redelastic@reddit
You even call them Palestinians. You'll lose hasbara credits for admitting they exist.
Dry-Season-522@reddit
Good for you.
BehemothDeTerre@reddit
When will the US end their centuries-long illegal occupation?
From the ocean to the ocean, Sioux land will be free!
actsqueeze@reddit
So you’re acknowledging Israel is committing genocide and ethnic cleansing similar to how the United States did to Native Americans?
BehemothDeTerre@reddit
No. Did you forget you were talking about "58 years ago"? It's 77 years ago, by the way.
Unable_Duck9588@reddit
They keep trying but Israel keeps sabotaging.
Disgusting bloodthirsty barbaric terrorists come off better than the Israeli Leadership. Killing more babies will definitely keep things safe for Israelis.
Another North American talking shit from the other side of the globe cheering on death and destruction. Always hilarious to see.
Iamover18ustupidshit@reddit
At this point if someone starts with the "why not release the hostages" BS - it's an autoblock.
No need to waste time with anyone who continues to use that as an excuse.
Especially with Israel is blatantly said they will continue to wage "war" once the hostages are released.
bureX@reddit
Because they’re a terror org.
So is this your excuse to kill kids?
NuggetoO@reddit
I don't know what excuse hamas uses to justify the things they do. I only hope, like the person above me, that they release the hostages soon so that there is less innocent suffering from civilians and needless death.
Unable_Duck9588@reddit
Then tell your clown in charge or your officials to talk to Netanyahu and his govrernment.
Because this isn’t working.
NuggetoO@reddit
I know, I don't understand why hamas thinks keeping the hostages is a good idea.
Unable_Duck9588@reddit
You keep repeating this stupid point like the other hasbara regurgitators expecting it to be the truth somehow, but it isn’t.
Do some introspection to find out why you ignore facts so frequently to cheer on dead babies.
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-09-19/ty-article/.premium/new-evidence-reveals-netanyahus-relentless-efforts-to-block-hostage-deal-report-shows/00000192-0a79-d1bc-a1ff-2e7fe0420000
https://www.972mag.com/israeli-hostage-families-ceasefire-netanyahu/
https://www.timesofisrael.com/ben-gvir-says-he-repeatedly-foiled-hostage-deals-urges-smotrich-to-help-him-stop-this-one/amp/
https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/editorial/2025-01-14/ty-article-opinion/dont-let-israels-far-right-sabotage-the-last-chance-to-save-the-hostages/00000194-610e-d2ad-a19d-774f8ad90000
https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-hamas-war-ceasefire-hostages-netanyahu-ff48f081b069e484955a72bc68261364
NuggetoO@reddit
Wait you dont think hamas should release the hostages?
cap123abc@reddit (OP)
Israel does not think so evidently. Phase 2 was their ticket and they destroyed it.
NuggetoO@reddit
I know Israel really fucked up because the only possible way those hostages could be released is by Israel sticking to phase 2. Hamas couldn't possibly just let them go home. Why? Well because they can only go home if Israel agrees to phase 2 and Israel isn't so it's their fault the hostages cant go home.
cap123abc@reddit (OP)
You may have a baby brained way of thinking about international conflict. Unfortunately for the hostage families the Israel states is aligned with how you think.
NuggetoO@reddit
We can't all be big brains like youself. Unfortunately for the hostages they are being held hostage.
Unable_Duck9588@reddit
Wait, you think Israel should kill more babies 😱
NuggetoO@reddit
That's easy to answer. No, I do not think Israel should kill any babies. I'm not for innocents dying, regardless of what country they are from. I'm not for Israel dropping bombs indiscriminately on Palestinian civilians. I'm against Israel taking Palestinian land.
Do you think hamas should release the hostages or do you think hamas should hold them longer?
Unable_Duck9588@reddit
Excellent, so get on the phone and tell your reprasentatives to get netanyahu to stop sabotaging every hostage deal and also maybe stop annexing palestinian land and kidnapping palestinian kids.
Its been going on for decades, I’m sure everyone would be in a much better position of Israel starts treating innocent palestinians as people and not as human shields for their genocide.
NuggetoO@reddit
Do you think hamas should release the hostages or do you think hamas should hold them longer?
Unable_Duck9588@reddit
I think people should be hostages anywhere, it’s netanyahu who doesn’t seem to agree.
So let’s get our leaders to tell netanyahu to stop sabotaging these deals and help end these innocent people’s suffering.
My leaders already agree, as well as most world leaders as well as the families of the hostages.. so we’re all waiting on your leaders.
NuggetoO@reddit
>I think people be hostages anywhere, it’s netanyahu who doesn’t seem to agree.
I'm trying to follow you here. Do you mean that netanyahu needs to meet hama's demands or do you mean Hamas should release the hostages regardless of what happens?
Unable_Duck9588@reddit
Netanyahu has already done several hostage exchanges with hamas. In fact it is with those exchanges where the most amount of hostages were freed… so him stopping the agreement and ending the ceasefire is him gambling with the lives of these hostages.
Hamas aren’t the ones claiming to be the most moral Army in the world, or the only democracy in the middle east.
Hamas are bloodthirsty terrorists, and yet it’s Israel that seems to behave more like the terrorists as they excuse the deaths of countless children and innocents.
What you fail to understand is that the onus is on Israeli government as the actual ‘civilized’ party here, and they have already successfully implemented many exchanges, so renegging to be able to cause more death and destruction only serves his own interests to stay in power.
As someone who wants the hostages to return, you don’t seem to actually understand how that happens, and killing more babies isn’t going to bring them back.
Just as a reminder, this man is actively sabotaging every deal to murder more people and keep the conflict hot so he can go on forever.
NuggetoO@reddit
Wow that's all good information. Thanks for informing me. Do you think Hamas should release the hostages or do you think Israel should meet hama's demands first?
Unable_Duck9588@reddit
You’re being intentionally obtuse and steering the conversation away from the facts.
In fact we all know you don’t give a shit about the hostages or the dead babies and maybe even enjoy them.
There was a deal, everything was working and netanyahu sabotaged it.
Read it again, maybe it’ll click eventually.
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-09-19/ty-article/.premium/new-evidence-reveals-netanyahus-relentless-efforts-to-block-hostage-deal-report-shows/00000192-0a79-d1bc-a1ff-2e7fe0420000
https://www.972mag.com/israeli-hostage-families-ceasefire-netanyahu/
https://www.timesofisrael.com/ben-gvir-says-he-repeatedly-foiled-hostage-deals-urges-smotrich-to-help-him-stop-this-one/amp/
https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/editorial/2025-01-14/ty-article-opinion/dont-let-israels-far-right-sabotage-the-last-chance-to-save-the-hostages/00000194-610e-d2ad-a19d-774f8ad90000
https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-hamas-war-ceasefire-hostages-netanyahu-ff48f081b069e484955a72bc68261364
But again, something tells me you don’t care. In any case, nobody buys the bullshit you sell, everyone sees through the lies and those who perpetuate them.
NuggetoO@reddit
Steering the conversation from the facts? I'm just asking you whether or not you think hamas should release the hostages or do you think Israel should meet hama's demands first?
Unable_Duck9588@reddit
https://www.npr.org/2025/03/19/nx-s1-5332204/israel-breaks-ceasefire-as-it-strikes-gaza-killing-hundreds
NuggetoO@reddit
I love npr, thanks! I was wondering about your thoughts though. Do you think Hamas should release the hostages or do you think Israel should meet hama's demands first?
Unable_Duck9588@reddit
Israel already met Hamas’ deal before Netanyahu and his cabinet sabotaged it. I want him to honour the deal and get everyone out as well as stop bombing babies.
Not pull out and pretend the ceasfire was violated by hamas.
You know… the exact same thing I’ve neen saying for every one of my messages and linking you news articles on how it went down.
Again, there is only one way we can guarantee that no more innocents die on either side, why are you pretending its unerasonable all of a sudden?
NuggetoO@reddit
You keep saying you have been saying the same thing but when I ask for clarity i'm met with contradictory statements like this "Israel already met Hamas’ deal, I want him to honour the deal " Did he already met hamas deal or did he not honor it?
Let's make this easy. I still don't know if you support hamas immediately releasing the hostages or them waiting for some kind of concessions from Israel so out of these two statements which one do you agree with A. or B.
A. I think hamas should release the hostages immediately
B. I think hamas should not release the hostages until Israel agrees to it's demands.
This should not be that hard. Here i'll go first. I agree with option A.
Unable_Duck9588@reddit
Please stop trying to debate lord your way out of this. It’s really pointless.
Once again, what I or you think is irrelevant. A deal was reached and then promptly breached by Netanyahu and innocent people are being killed/ will be killed and the hostages lives aren’t any better.
You say you don’t want people to die but are painting the entire incident in a way that absolves Israeli crimes and murder and trying to steer the conversation will not change this.
Again, if you do care, tell your representatives and tell Trump to reel netanyahu in. But I’m guessing you support both from all of your posts so let’s just agree that you aren’t acting in the best of faith and are indifferent to the pain and suffering of those that aren’t you.
NuggetoO@reddit
It's easy for me because I don't mind people thinking I want hamas to release the hostages without Israel making any kind of further deals. I guess if I thought Israel needed to meet hamas demands first I'd be deflecting as much as you.
Daryno90@reddit
Do you really think Israel is going to stop the massacre just because Hamas release the hostages? Israel was the one killing peace talks that would had brought them home while bombing the area those hostages were in. One hostage even said she was more afraid of Israeli bombs than she was Hamas.
If Hamas did release the hostages, Israel would come up with another bullshit excuse to continue the slaughter. These past 15 months have shown just how moral depraved and barbaric the IDF and Israeli government truly are
Iamover18ustupidshit@reddit
The worst part is, it shouldn't only be about the children. According to the IDF there are/were 30-40k Hamas soldiers.
That means 98%+ of people in Gaza are innocent - including men, women AND children.
Yet the fact we have to continuously point to "children" and STILL have to hear about dumbfuck statements like "FAFO" is unimaginable in any other scenario.
These fucked up lunatics have no morality or soul left, they think everything can just be waved away "because".
Dry-Season-522@reddit
Japan sank five of our ships.
We dropped the sun on them twice.
This is what's known as "proportionate response."
DovahSlayer_@reddit
Man what a rotten genocidal poc
Unable_Duck9588@reddit
For bullies, sure.
But people are waking up to that fact too.
LowCall6566@reddit
Tell that to Chinese and Koreans
redelastic@reddit
No, it's war crimes, ethnic cleansing and genocide. Which you support.
Dry-Season-522@reddit
Call the war police.
redelastic@reddit
The International Criminal Court has already issued arrest warrants for war crimes for Israel's leaders.
Iamover18ustupidshit@reddit
That poster really thought they cooked with the idiotic "call the war police" statement.
redelastic@reddit
Probably related to Team America: World Police.
Dry-Season-522@reddit
And all the genocide of the jews in the region the international courts... did nothing, so why should Israel care?
EH1987@reddit
My guy, which genocides exactly?
LowCall6566@reddit
The expulsion of all jews from all Muslim countries?
EH1987@reddit
Have you ever looked into it or are you just parroting hasbara? Much (if not most) of it was organized and facilitated by Israel, they even committed terrorism to cause jews to flee other countries for Israel. Some countries even attempted to prevent its jewish population from leaving.
LowCall6566@reddit
Yeah, the all-powerful Israel was able to do that and simultaneously fight all of its neighbors. /s
EH1987@reddit
Was Israel at war with all of its neighbors from 1948 until 1970 or are you suggesting all jews were expelled from Arab countries in 1948?
It's clear you literally don't know the first thing about any of this yet still speak with complete confidence.
LowCall6566@reddit
The expulsions of jews started in MENA countries almost immediately after the brits left the Mandate. Are you suggesting that those were instigated by Israel? And if those weren't, what was so different about later ones?
EH1987@reddit
No that's just a categorically false statement. To get back to the original claim, none of this is considered a genocide in any meaningful sense by anyone besides Israeli propagandists who trot it out from time to time in an attempt to justify their own ethnic cleansing of Palestine. And none of them actually make the case for rhe jewish right of return to their countries of origin post the establishment of Israel because that would legitimize Palestinian right of return to their homes in what is now Israel.
LowCall6566@reddit
Because "the right of return" is inherently a stupid idea to begin with? "Palestinians" are probably the only people among every displaced group that demand it. Others have moved on and look towards the future instead of clinging to some imagined past.
EH1987@reddit
Funny you should mention that since that's literally the foundation for Israel's own law of return.
I suppose living in your own imaginary reality is a requirement for holding such blatantly contradictory ideas, I expect you might run the risk if an aneurysm from the cognitive dissonance otherwise.
LowCall6566@reddit
What Palestinians argue for isn't the same thing. They want Israel to cede territories and jews to flee those territories or die. Israel just has a specific immigration policy, which isn't unusual. Equivalent would be for Germany to demand territories back from Poland or Poland to demand land back from Belarus and Ukraine. Before the 7/11, pretty much any "Palestinian" that wanted to could get a work visa and start living in Israel, with a possible path to become an Israeli citizen later. But they don't want to just return. They want Israel gone.
EH1987@reddit
Bro you're literally just making this up as you go along because you have absolutely no legs to stand on. What you lay out here is pure fucking fiction.
redelastic@reddit
What? The Genocide Convention was a direct response to the horrors of the Holocaust.
There haven't been any examples of genocide of Jewish people since then.
"Why should Israel care" is not a valid excuse for Israel to commit war crimes.
actsqueeze@reddit
Israel has been breaking international law for 58 straight years, you clearly don’t know the “rules” or you only, hypocritically, apply them to one side
ArtisticallyRegarded@reddit
How many years has palestine been breaking international law
actsqueeze@reddit
They aren’t breaking international law.
Do you know of a court that’s said otherwise?
ArtisticallyRegarded@reddit
Yes taking hostages is against international law genius
pimmen89@reddit
The dead children took hostages?
ArtisticallyRegarded@reddit
Try a little harder to follow the conversation
pimmen89@reddit
But you talked about taking hostages as being against international law and use it to justify the murder of children, so I’m a little confused since the children didn’t take any hostages.
860v2@reddit
So what’s Hamas’ justification for murdering Israeli children?
pimmen89@reddit
None, there is no justification for murdering innocent children, whether they're Palestinian or Israeli. And you don't stop the murdering of innocent children by murdering innocent children.
860v2@reddit
So why would Hamas intentionally kill Israeli children?
That’s very different than Hamas human shields dying in an IDF bombing.
pimmen89@reddit
Because Hamas is not a good organization, it’s even a terror organization, so they want to scare Israelis into compliance by bombing civilians.
The children can’t choose to be a human shield, the IDF chooses to kill them because they think the end justifies the means, and they ask the rest of the world to take their word for it that there really were Hamas operatives behind every dead child and that they had no choice.
860v2@reddit
Sounds like great reasons why Israel must ensure that Hamas doesn’t continue existing.
Hamas is responsible for the deaths of human shields. No one is forcing them to do that.
pimmen89@reddit
I didn’t say nobody forced Hamas to take cover behind civilians, I just said that doesn’t justify the killing of children. There are simply too many children who have died for me to believe that there was a Hamas fighter behind every single one of them, or even the majority of them, and Israel doesn’t want to share the intel to put that skepticism to rest.
860v2@reddit
International law states that the presence of civilians does not prevent a location from being a valid military target. The burden is on Hamas to not use human shields.
pimmen89@reddit
We have no idea if the IDF had intel that there were any Hamas fighters at the sites full of children. International law states you can’t punish civilians for being in the vicinity of military targets, that’s called ”collective punishment”. The burden is actually on Israel to reduce the amount of civilian casualties when they invade a territory, and this prove they had no other choice than blowing up a school or hospital full of kids.
860v2@reddit
Wrong. A valid military target does not stop being one just because civilians are present.
The burden is on Hamas not to use human shields and not operate from civilian areas.
pimmen89@reddit
But we have to take the IDF’s word that the hospitals and schools are military targets because they refuse to share the intel. Why should I believe them? Because if they’re not, attacking the hospitals and schools full of kids is a war crime.
860v2@reddit
No, there’s videos of Hamas operating out of hospitals and schools.
pimmen89@reddit
But that doesn’t mean that every hospital and school has Hamas in them, so why should I trust the IDF when they say that there was Hamas in every school and hospital they bombed when they refuse to share their intel with the international community? I mean, the IDF used an ambulance to raid the West Bank, by that logic every single ambulance in all of Israel is a valid military target.
860v2@reddit
You can continue denying reality but, again, there’s video evidence of Hamas operating out of/near hospitals, schools, UN offices, residential buildings, etc.
pimmen89@reddit
I’m not denying that Hamas has operated out of civilian buildings, but why should we believe that every single hospital and school IDF has demolished had any sort of intel or evidence backing it up as a military target when Israel refuses to share it?
860v2@reddit
Because they have a history of doing so (all caught on camera)?
You don’t need “intel”, just watch the videos.
pimmen89@reddit
And the IDF has a history of using ambulances as military vehicles. Are all Israeli ambulances military targets too?
860v2@reddit
No, they don’t.
If you want to support bombing Israeli ambulances, that’s on you. The vast majority of people would disagree.
pimmen89@reddit
The IDF admitted to doing it. So since they have used ambulances for military operations, are Israeli ambulances valid military targsts?
860v2@reddit
That’s not “using ambulances as military vehicles”.
Extremely ironic angle considering Hamas intentionally does not wear a uniform so that they can blend in with civilians.
pimmen89@reddit
They transported military personnel to conduct a military operation. How is that not using it as a military vehicle?
860v2@reddit
Nope. Sounds like you’re just wanting to justify bombing Israeli ambulances.
Again, highly ironic considering what I mentioned above.
pimmen89@reddit
What definition are you using where a vehicle transporting military personell during a military operation is not a military target? The Geneva convention gives troop transports as an example of a military target, and a vehicle transporting troops to a military operation is the literal definition of a troop transport.
860v2@reddit
Again, this angle doesn't work because the side you sympathize with and minimize actions for intentionally conducts military operations wearing civilian clothing to blend in with their own civilian population.
If you cared about any of it, you would have criticized it before.
pimmen89@reddit
I don’t sympathize with Hamas, they’re a terrorist organization.
You say that because Hamas has used hospitals as bases, one can just bomb any hospital in Gaza and reasonably assume it was a Hamas base. I say that by your logic, one can bomb any ambulance in Israel and reasonably assume it was an Israeli troop transport since the IDF has used ambulances as troop transports, and troop transports are valid military targets.
I think it’s ludicrous to generalize in either case and that one needs very strong evidence before attacking a target likely to be full of civilians.
860v2@reddit
Yes, you do. Just look at your comment history. All you do is minimize Hamas’ actions while criticizing Israel for the same things you’re downplaying.
Hamas is on video operating out of several hospitals. You can choose to ignore video evidence, but the videos don’t lie.
Have fun losing.
Winter_Result_8734@reddit
I have a genuine question. You basically acknowledged here that Israel is murdering children.
Israel is a state and supposed to be the good guy. Hamas is a terrorist organization.
Since when do we expect terrorist to play by the rules and be ethically correct ?
But wanna know what we always expect ? From the „most moral army in the world“ to be morally correct and not starve children and beating pregnant women. Let alone shoot kids in the head.
How dose that make sense ?
860v2@reddit
No, because that wouldn’t be murder.
Anyone who sympathizes with Hamas does not have the standing to criticize others for lack of morality, ethics, etc.
Winter_Result_8734@reddit
So you are saying that Israel is not murdering children in Gaza ?
860v2@reddit
Yes. I think you need to go look up what “murder” means.
ArtisticallyRegarded@reddit
Yes you are confused. I was responding to the user who said only Israel is breaking international law. The truth is hamas has committed every war crime in the book and Palestine has been breaking international law since before Israel was a country
pimmen89@reddit
And that justifies the murder of innocent children and demolishing civilian homes, which are war crimes? "Two wrongs make a right"?
ArtisticallyRegarded@reddit
What it means is hamas is responsible for a fair amount of the child deaths under international law. The law you guys pretend to care about
pimmen89@reddit
No argument there, but that doesn’t mean that Israel is not responsible for the children they’ve killed in civilian hospitals and schools. They refuse to share any intel or proof with the international community that indicates these hospitals and schools were anything but civilian.
actsqueeze@reddit
So, which court then?
ArtisticallyRegarded@reddit
ICJ
actsqueeze@reddit
Okay,so the ICJ said that the hostages need to be returned without conditions and has also said that Israel has to remove their settlers from the occupied territories completely and pay reparations.
Israel refuses to do the latter, why would Hamas do the former? Do you think that maybe Hamas kidnapped them because Israel won’t end their 58 year long illegal occupation?
ArtisticallyRegarded@reddit
Oh so you dont think hamas has to follow international law. Very interesting. Something something double standards right?
actsqueeze@reddit
They should, but only if Israel also does, hence the hostages as a bargaining chip
ArtisticallyRegarded@reddit
Oh so you unironically support taking hostages
actsqueeze@reddit
I support Israel ending their 58 year long illegal occupation
ArtisticallyRegarded@reddit
And taking hostages
actsqueeze@reddit
Maybe this somehow hasn’t sunk in for you yet, so I’ll reiterate:
Israel has been stealing land for 58 straight years, and discriminates so harshly against Palestinians that they’ve been ruled guilty of apartheid by The World Court.
All of the violence is their fault, they are the oppressors.
ArtisticallyRegarded@reddit
Maybe this hasnt sunk in but palestine has been breaking international law for longer than 58 years dopey. I dont know why you think you udnerstand law you thought TAKING HOSTAGES was legal lol. And then when proven wrong you just doubled down
actsqueeze@reddit
So Israel has a right to defend themselves but Palestinians don’t have a right to defend themselves from apartheid and land theft?
My only question to you is, do you acknowledge that Israel has been stealing land for 58 straight years? And if so, how can you see them as the victims?
Even-North3071@reddit
Defend themselves? Yes. Attack random civilians? No.
The Israeli occupation of Palestine is indeed a crime. But let’s not act like terrorism and violence is the answer.
Ghandi, MLK, Nelson Mandela. They achieved their goals through non-violent civil disobedience. That is the opposite of what is happening now…
I can acknowledge the Israeli occupation in Palestine needs to end. Can you acknowledge that this recent violence wouldn’t be taking place without the civilian attacks on October 7, and that the best way to create a free Palestine is through non-violence?
I mean, Hamas is literally an authoritarian, fundamentalist, terrorist organization. They won the election to gain control of Gazan politics in 2005, then cancelled all future elections. If you were Israeli, that isn’t the group you would want to negotiate with for a free Palestine. You have to look at it from both sides.
ArtisticallyRegarded@reddit
Bro seriously stf lol. You support taking hostages buddy youre not entitled to ask questions. This war is still going on specifically because people like you refuse to hold palestinians accountable for their crimes agaiant humanity and violation of international law. You will sacrifice every last palestinian child to continue your war against Israel
NuggetoO@reddit
All of them
Dry-Season-522@reddit
Oh dear better call the international police, ya know, right after you deal with why all the jews "decided to leave" the rest of the middle east. Ya know, that genocide...
Fantastic-String5820@reddit
Hope you'll appreciate that same attitude when you get another 9/11
NuggetoO@reddit
Something tells me that would make you verry happy.
NoMathematician9564@reddit
Boo hoo lmao. - justifies the killing and maiming of children - proceeds to cry when confronted and treated the same way he treats Palestinians
Dry-Season-522@reddit
Everyone Israel has killed in this conflict was wearing the HAMAS battle uniform. What else are they supposed to do when someone's eawring the uniform of a government that has declared war on them?
DovahSlayer_@reddit
What the fuck are you talking about? Hundreds of BABIES and thousands of CHILDREN killed and I’ve yet to see one in “Hamas uniform”
Dry-Season-522@reddit
What do you mean? Look at the pictures dude! They're all wearing the hamas combat uniform!
Fantastic-String5820@reddit
Why? I'm not the one justifying mass murder, that's your buddy up above
JMoc1@reddit
But you are. You’re here to justify the attacks against civilians in Gaza.
Fantastic-String5820@reddit
You should consult my post history if you believe this
WistopherWalken@reddit
You know, the Nazis probably said the exact same thing.
aikhuda@reddit
Who was taking Nazi hostages with the intent to exterminate Germany?
WistopherWalken@reddit
I'm also so amused by hindutivas who, through shared hatred of Muslims, align themselves closely with ultra far right wing Israeli. I will kindly remind you that far right Israelis do not like you, and in fact, are some of the most racist people around. They see our brown skin and think of dirt. They are not your friends. Stop lapping them up like a dog.
pimmen89@reddit
Plenty of German civilians were captured and hurt by the Polish and Czech resistance. Nazi Germany used those stories to justify the continuation of the war, total control of Eastern Europe was seen as the only solution to it.
LowCall6566@reddit
I'm pretty sure polish resistance didn't waste resources on kidnapping random germans. German "retaliatoriations" were something like 100 dead poles for every german, so the underground government was almost always precise. Hamas took random civilians from a concert.
pimmen89@reddit
They didn’t kidnap random Germans, but people who were related to German officers were sometimes targeted. Civilians none the less. And German civilians were sometimes collateral damage during bombings, such as in September 15 1939 when a Czech group put bombs outside a police station and the ministry of aeronautics.
A civilian is a non-combatant in this definition, it doesn’t matter if they’re visiting a concert.
Aaron_Hamm@reddit
Your capacity to write clearly is on par with your capacity to think clearly
beansthemajicalfruit@reddit
Just return the hostages! Sounds so easy, right???
Are hamas regarded??
redelastic@reddit
But you have nothing to say about the thousands of children killed. I see.
beansthemajicalfruit@reddit
Why do you want them to keep the hostages? Pretty sick position, buddy....
redelastic@reddit
I never said that. I'd prefer to see the hostages returned.
You not condemning the mass slaughter of children is a pretty sick position, buddy...
beansthemajicalfruit@reddit
Of course, I condemn the deaths of anyone. Hamas really sucks getting those children killed. I'll condemn hamas all day long.
redelastic@reddit
"getting those children killed"
Fascinating how you ascribe no responsibility to those actually carrying out the killing.
beansthemajicalfruit@reddit
If that's how you want to see it. Either we're both right or we're both wrong...
redelastic@reddit
You support evil. Make of that what you will.
beansthemajicalfruit@reddit
Funny, I see how you support the mass killing of civilians and keeping hostages, I guess we're not the same 😅
redelastic@reddit
Except I don't support either the killing of civilians or keeping hostages.
But you're selective in your humanity.
beansthemajicalfruit@reddit
I guess you don't understand your own position, common problem among the Irish....
redelastic@reddit
Take your selective humanity elsewhere.
beansthemajicalfruit@reddit
So, releasing hostages and ending war is bad for the Palestinians in your mind? I'm glad to not have your psychological problems....
redelastic@reddit
Killing Palestinians is bad for the Palestinians in my mind.
Sorry you support the murder of children but that's your issue.
beansthemajicalfruit@reddit
Sounds like you support that too, since giving up the hostages ends the killing of children in this war. I don't know why you want more Palestinian deaths, but you do you....
redelastic@reddit
Sorry you support the murder of children but that's your issue.
beansthemajicalfruit@reddit
Does hamas taking and keeping hostages prevent the murder of children? Weirdo....
redelastic@reddit
Sorry you support the murder of children but that's your issue.
beansthemajicalfruit@reddit
Lol, why can't you answer a simple question? Oh right, Irish....
redelastic@reddit
Attacking my nationality does not make you look any smarter. But I suppose that's to be expected from a child murder fan.
beansthemajicalfruit@reddit
Still not answering...? Yep...
redelastic@reddit
I don't answer to genocide supporters. Go earn some tax dollars for bombs, Yank.
Aaron_Hamm@reddit
I certainly think you're regarded
beansthemajicalfruit@reddit
I've never gotten tens of thousands of my people killed because I wanted to keep hostages in my terror tunnels. I guess it's a different type of regard in gaza...
Aaron_Hamm@reddit
Definitely are different kinds... You're the kind that gets on their knees to suck a load of propaganda
beansthemajicalfruit@reddit
Why do you say that? Is it really hard to return hostages?
Aaron_Hamm@reddit
I say it because it's obvious. Ask Israel.
beansthemajicalfruit@reddit
So you think hamas should keep the hostages? Seems like a mistake to me, but you do you....
Aaron_Hamm@reddit
What I think is you can't read.
beansthemajicalfruit@reddit
Is keeping the hostages more important than keeping people alive?
Aaron_Hamm@reddit
Freeing the hostages wouldn't have kept Israel from attacking again. If it would have, Israel would have agreed to phase 2, the hostages would be free, and there would be a permanent ceasefire.
Israel wanted the hostages back and the freedom to keep attacking, obviously.
beansthemajicalfruit@reddit
Ooooo, you also have a crystal ball! Impressive!!
Aaron_Hamm@reddit
No, I can just read. You should try it some time outside of propaganda, headlines, and comment sections
beansthemajicalfruit@reddit
Lol, ok 👍
Aaron_Hamm@reddit
See ya around, Ohio. Enjoy being on the 3 hops watch list
https://blogs.cornell.edu/info2040/2014/09/12/three-degrees-of-separation-breaking-down-the-nsas-hops-surveillance-method/
beansthemajicalfruit@reddit
Ooooooooo, bonertown!
Aaron_Hamm@reddit
Sounds like the kind of place that would be in Ohio
beansthemajicalfruit@reddit
So much boner
Aaron_Hamm@reddit
Awww, Ohio got butthurt about the flyover state joke :(
beansthemajicalfruit@reddit
Boner! Boner! Boner!
Aaron_Hamm@reddit
Keep downvoting me so I know how triggered you are in your angry little Ohio heart.
Aaron_Hamm@reddit
Cool how your flair is a lie tho, Ohio.
beansthemajicalfruit@reddit
Oooooo, big detective here today! Can you use that brain to solve the crisis in gaza?
Aaron_Hamm@reddit
Didn't take much detective work to find out you're a liar
beansthemajicalfruit@reddit
Is that a no to helping in gaza, then?
Aaron_Hamm@reddit
I've sent tens of thousands of dollars to Gaza, bud.
Fun fact: you're on an NSA list for talking to me due to that.
beansthemajicalfruit@reddit
Oh dear....
celloh234@reddit
no its because israel has been actively sabotaging hostage return talks
beansthemajicalfruit@reddit
What's to talk about? Just return them. Stop being shitbag criminals. Hamas could really help the gazans here...
Bourbon-Decay@reddit
Highly regarded
redelastic@reddit
Not kind regarded.
Militatti@reddit
You're the type of dude to say "look what you made me do" after beating your wife.
Killeroftanks@reddit
So when the Germans and soviet's went into Poland murdering all of those civilians, you would've blamed the poles for resisting, right?
beansthemajicalfruit@reddit
Comparing apples to carrots?
Odd, very odd...
Dry-Season-522@reddit
Stop shooting rockets from schools and homes. Allow people to evadcuate when Israel drops leaflets saying specifically where they're going to bomb.
Killeroftanks@reddit
Just so you know there hasn't been any evidence of Hamas or any Gaza military group doing this since 2015.
That's like saying milk is bad for you because 10 years ago this was bad milk going around at the time.
It's fine to be skeptical of the milk, but you can't trust a decade old story to still hold any say for the modern time.
Because remember, Israel said they were using schools and hospitals as military targets, and when asked for proof they planted evidence, or tried to use a video showing off a swedish bunker as proof. Don't know about you but swedish and Arabic doesn't really look the same. Or they use a nearly decade old Lebanese film as evidence. Because no one in the world would've seen that film.
beansthemajicalfruit@reddit
Wow, where do you buy your crack?
Killeroftanks@reddit
I would say your dealer but I actually got standards.
beansthemajicalfruit@reddit
You must be super high if you think that response makes sense 🤔 😂😂
SurturOfMuspelheim@reddit
People can defend themselves from genocide with whatever means they want.
beansthemajicalfruit@reddit
Are they defending themselves, though?
SurturOfMuspelheim@reddit
They've been defending themselves since the 1940s.
beansthemajicalfruit@reddit
It's not working. Maybe they should try something more intellectual and less religious when choosing a defense.
SurturOfMuspelheim@reddit
Lol, what? Who gives a shit if people use their common faith to come together and feel better in terrible times.
beansthemajicalfruit@reddit
Ehhh, it's still a terrible defense though, right?
LowCall6566@reddit
Even if there was an actual genocide and colialism taking place, the tactics chosen by Hamas are contrproductive. Kidnapping, raping, and killing random civilians doesn't do anything for the "liberation" of Palestine
SurturOfMuspelheim@reddit
Whatever you say mossad agent.
redelastic@reddit
Blah blah hasbara talking point no. 84..
You must have not see the multiple times they've bombed tents in "humanitarian" zones.
Dry-Season-522@reddit
Oh hey look, Hamas specifically sets up military operations in humanitarian zones.
Shiroi_Kage@reddit
Talking point no. 85. Still nothing about dead children and restriction of water.
Dry-Season-522@reddit
Translation: "You're not allowed to fight the people of a country that attacks you, only its soldiers. However since its soldiers are mixed with its people, lol u can't attack lol"
Nah. As I put it, "Everyone Israel has killed has been waering the HAMAS battle uniform, which means all of their actions are in compliance with international law."
Shiroi_Kage@reddit
Oh everyone Israel killed? Including over 16 thousand children? Including babies in incubators? Including doctors and paramedics? Including international aid workers? Yeah, all of them deserved to be starved and blown up and having their water sources destroyed.
Dry-Season-522@reddit
Yup. Every single one of them was wearing the HAMAS battle uniform.
It's like we have uniforms for a reason.
Shiroi_Kage@reddit
??? What is the Hamas uniform? Look at the videos of bodies in the hospitals. Everyone is wearing normal clothes.
Dry-Season-522@reddit
So you agree.
Shiroi_Kage@reddit
Ah I see. So in your view, babies are legitimate target if their parents dress them up in camo? You're an idiot.
Dry-Season-522@reddit
I think you missed the entire point.
Shiroi_Kage@reddit
Your point is that Hamas fighters aren't wearing military uniforms that distinguish them from everyone else and are saying "everyone is wearing that uniform." You're justifying baby murder by saying "everyone." See the problem there?
Dry-Season-522@reddit
So what you're saying is that no country is ever allowed to be invaded or attack back if they are invaded because BAAAAAAABIES
Shiroi_Kage@reddit
Yes. International law and the Geneva convention say that you must protect the lives of civilians no matter what happens. It doesn't matter if you're invading or responding or whatever. You have to avoid destroying places like hospitals.
Oh and just so you know, Israel has been invading Palestine from the moment it was created. They keep building illegal settlements on Palestinian lands, and the wall that isolates Gaza is built on Palestinian lands and it occupies a significant chunk of the sector. So no, the Palestinians were the ones defending themselves here not the other way around. Like how do you invade someone's house then shoot them in self defense?
Dry-Season-522@reddit
You don't know what international law is.
You don't know what the geneva convention is.
You're literally arguing that using your own children as human shields should be a rewarded tactic in warfare "under the rules."
Monster.
redelastic@reddit
Truly deranged. But not surprising, those who support the mass killing of children usually are.
Dry-Season-522@reddit
So the Israeli children that died just... don't matter to you. Got it.
redelastic@reddit
I never suggested that but making stuff up seems to be your modus operandi.
Unable_Duck9588@reddit
He’s a trumpster and believes in aliens and listens to joe rogan.
Also brags about dropping suns on Japan in WW2, you typical meal team 6, except this one was in the army.
redelastic@reddit
You believe everything Israel tells you. Good boy.
Winter_Result_8734@reddit
Oh so it’s ok to bomb children / elderly / pregnant women / infants / people with disabilities / teens as long as they are close to a Hamas member ?
Got it you total psychopath
Annatastic6417@reddit
It's absolutely sickening watching people make up stories to justify the bombing of hospitals and schools. Iraq did something similar to the Kurds in 2003 and America flattened it, now you just roll over. Pathetic country.
Dry-Season-522@reddit
Bro it's on video and they openly bragged about it.
SnowMeadowhawk@reddit
What's the point when they're gonna kill all the Palestinians anyway?
They've already sold their land to real estate companies, it's just a matter of time when they'll need to demolish the existing structures and people.
beansthemajicalfruit@reddit
What are they waiting for? Seems like they are wasting time letting them live... /s
SnowMeadowhawk@reddit
Since the international law is merely a suggestion, and the only real law is the rule of the stronger, they'll accomplish whichever they want, whenever they want.
They're waiting to save their PR, which is even more disrespectful and cruel imho. Imagine knowing that the only reason you live is because it's not good for the optics to kill you right away.
beansthemajicalfruit@reddit
Ahhh, so once the new US and Europe have reached peak fascism, Israel will just dispose of all Palestinians? That's quite a prediction! I guess we'll have to wait and see. Thanks crazy person!!
SnowMeadowhawk@reddit
Peak fascism is not necessary, a big enough distraction would be sufficient.
ScaryShadowx@reddit
Just leave the country! Sounds so easy, right? They wouldn't end up in the camps if they just leave!
Conscious-Abalone-86@reddit
The hostages Israel has taken never matters in my logic ! Kill everything!FAFO!
Sounds so easy, right?
beansthemajicalfruit@reddit
So you want to admit hamas are regarded now?
sadderall-sea@reddit
???
SameStand9266@reddit
Everyone should return the hostages, including Israel. Right?
mschuster91@reddit
Hamas could, you know, just release the damn hostages. It's not that hard.
Pklnt@reddit
Israel could, you know, just cease the West Bank colonization. It's not that hard.
mschuster91@reddit
What the fuck does Hamas have to do with the West Bank? If anything, Fatah/West Bank would have had a right of military action against Israel. Israel has been out of Gaza for many years and didn't do shit despite being shelled with rockets all the time since they left Gaza.
There was no reason, no justification for Oct 7th - and that is why Israel reacted the way it did.
redelastic@reddit
That must be why the ICJ still consider Gaza an illegal occupation by Israel.
How convenient you ignore the blockade.
How casually you justify mass child murder - but then, Germany is providing the weapons.
CamisaMalva@reddit
Dude, Egypt blockades Gaza as well for pretty much the same reasons as Israel.
Does that make them genocidal colonizers? lol
redelastic@reddit
Hadn't noticed Egypt murdering 20,000 Palestinian children.
CamisaMalva@reddit
Oh man, is Gaza entirely populated by children or something?
You should be mad at Hamas for dragging Gaza into a war they had no chance at even surviving, especially when they use civilian infrastructure like schools and hospitals as military bases.
Urban warfare has never been good for reducing collateral damage even when your own government is not actively using you as a meat shield.
redelastic@reddit
Oh, so Egypt hasn't killed 20,000 children in Gaza.
So it's a stupid comparison.
Keep supporting widely-documented war crimes.
CamisaMalva@reddit
Nice to see how you didn't acknowledge anything I said, just cling on to the assumption that apparently all of Gaza's population is comprised by children. Actual news don't make such claims, so I suggest you start researching what you're spewing before thinking to use moral outrage in a debate.
And really, lumping in collateral damage with war crimes is about the most immature thing ever- did you seriously expect that war would be a clean affair or something? Maybe Hamas shouldn't killed hundreds of thousands while kidnapping any survivor to use as a bargaining chip against a clearly superior enemy.
Wanna blame someone? Blame Gaza's government for placing their mass-murdering campaign over the lives of its people, which they're on record saying is not their job to take care of.
redelastic@reddit
You're a genocide supporter so not deserving of a reasoned response.
CamisaMalva@reddit
Oh, going straight to the insults rather than bothering to refute anything I said? That's fine, won't change reality either way.
Only 5% or so of Gaza's population has died thus far, and a third of those casualties are Hamas combatants the Gazan Health Ministry conflated with actual civilian deaths whether they were collateral damage or killed by Hamas itself. So much for genocide when the superior army has failed to kill even half the population.
Almost like it wasn't their goal...
redelastic@reddit
It's not an insult, it's simply stating a fact.
You're a liar and a genocide supporter.
It must uncomfortable to hear these facts, I appreciate.
CamisaMalva@reddit
Knocking off the board and claiming you won the game is not really the same as actually winning.
I could call you a dodo and you wouldn't be one. Should've expected that someone from Ireland would jump straight to the wrong take when it came to this subject. Y'all like to support the side that started this for whatever reason.
redelastic@reddit
I'm sorry you support genocide but that is your personal choice.
CamisaMalva@reddit
Yeah, sure, genocide.
Knocking off the board and goading like you actually won...
redelastic@reddit
If you think war crimes is "winning", clearly you have a perverse and broken moral compass.
CamisaMalva@reddit
Collateral damage is not the same as war crimes, my boy.
Or did you think that armed conflicts are like movies where only the people with guns ever get killed?
redelastic@reddit
I'm sorry you support crimes against humanity and can't distinguish between war crimes and "collateral damage" (a disgusting, dehumanising phrase imo).
That's why the ICC has issued arrest warrants for war crimes.
I won't be engaging with you further as I find your position abhorrent and morally bankrupt.
CamisaMalva@reddit
Are you really that emotional that the idea people can and have died to being caught in the crossfire of a war is that unbearable to you?
Blame it on Gaza's government for using civilian infrastructure as bases and weapons warehouses regardless of the danger it ultimately poses for noncombatants. That's the real war crime your stubborn ass should be raging about.
Using places like schools, neighborhoods and hospitals for military purposes voids their special status according to international law, but that's clearly never stopped Hamas from doing so anyways.
Iamover18ustupidshit@reddit
43% of the population of Palestine is considered children (47% just in Gaza alone).
You do know Hamas were voted into power in 2007 right? The reason was because of the uselessness of the PA which were only interested in corruption. And Israel decided to not only continue but escalate the blockade.
All this information is freely available at your finger tips, try utilizing it.
CamisaMalva@reddit
Man, the Pay to Slay thing is that good they've already exhausted their entire adult population by sending them to become martyrs? You should probably be protesting them for fostering a culture were getting yourself killed in a jihad against Israel is considered one's highest calling (And that's not my opinion, I just literally quoted a Hamas leader after one of his son's died just like that).
"It was in January 2006 that the Palestinian territories held what turned out to be their last parliamentary elections. Hamas won a bare plurality of votes (44 percent to the more moderate Fatah party’s 41 percent) but, given the electoral system, a strong majority of seats (74 to 45). Neither party was keen on sharing power. Fighting broke out between the two. When a unity government was finally formed in June 2007, Hamas broke the deal, started murdering Fatah members, and, in the end, took total control of the Gaza Strip. Those who weren’t killed fled to the West Bank, and the territories have remained split ever since."
This is from a Slate article. Now, while it turns out we both were wrong on when they won the election (But I was closer than you), the fact remains that their first executive order was betraying their political rivals after claiming they'd work together and murdering almost every single one of them.
As for Fatah being corrupt... Well, they are the PLO's political wing, did you expect anything less from the people who were committing all sorts of terrorist acts before Hamas became relevant? The only real difference between them is that Hamas somehow surpassed them when it came to extremism. They're both corrupt, fanatical mass-murdering cults at any rate.
Did you forget that they've been trying to kill Israelis nonstop even after they left Gaza and never returned? You say it as though the blockade was completely unprovoked- if so, go complain about Egypt because they're also blockading Gaza for the exact same reasons.
Did just that. You should try to as well.
Iamover18ustupidshit@reddit
Pay to slay? I don't even know what you're talking about and how it relates to 20,000+ children being killed (that we know of so far). If you intend to say nonsensical things, let me know so I can just ignore anything else afterwards.
You're speaking like someone who isn't bothered by pictures and videos of kids burned to the point of being unrecognizable or with limbs blown off - or someone who hasn't seen them. No well adjusted human being would take such a laissez-faire attitude otherwise, so I'd like to give you the benefit of doubt, for now anyway.
You're speaking about Hamas-PLO as if it's a straightforward issue. They both tried to take power and that old fart Abbas (considered a leader by no one, even in Palestine) tried to form his own security force before Hamas did the same. Not to mention that according to wiki - the PA tried to work with the Brits to "degrade the capabilities" of Hamas since it rejected Israeli statehood.
Abbas thought he would easily win out because the "international community" was giving him their backing while putting sanctions on Hamas - in the end he ended up staying useless. He still somehow thinks he'll be granted power, he won't.
As for Israel leaving Gaza - they left (physically) but never actually ceded control - "Israel controls virtually every aspect of life in Gaza. Israel maintains control of Gaza’s airspace, its territorial waters, no-go zones within the strip and even the population registry".
There are also other reasons, as in intending to indefinitely stall any future peace plans + the fact the Israeli populace didn't want to have Hamas continue their suicide and other attacks (which Hamas declared they would be stopping in 2006).
CamisaMalva@reddit
You didn't know about the Martyr's Fund? Well, look it up. The West Bank's government literally gives stipends to the families of people who've clashed with Israel and paid for it in some way- which is to say that if you were arrested for ramming your car against a group of Israelis or got shot in the process of being arrested for stabbing someone to death, the PLO will compensate your family for it. Martyrdom worship is big among Palestinians, though you only get paid in the West Bank for dying in the name of the case; Gazans are fanatical enough to do it for free.
Did you honestly think that the fanaticism is exclusive to just their government? Nah, mate, this is a societal problem. There are videos of civilians celebrating while the corpses of those murdered by Hamas were paraded around Gaza's streets, in case you thought otherwise. About the most Palestinians have come to reject this unending refusal to move on and just mind their own business is that a recent poll showed people didn't like how October 7th backfired so badly on them.
Oh, I am. It's just that I know Hamas is to blame for knowingly instigating an armed conflict they had no chance of even surviving by massacring countless innocents, aware that their civilian population would bear the brunt of it and actively looking forward to it just so Israel would face backlash over the inevitable collateral damage- because that's what it is, collateral damage. Urban warfare is not really for minimizing the number of people caught in the crossfire, especially when their own military makes a point of using places like hospitals and schools as bases/warehouses/hideouts while not wearing any sort of identifying uniform to set them apart from civilians (Did you that the Gazan Health Ministry, which is run by Hamas, doesn't make a difference between dead combatants and ACTUAL civilians?).
Are you really surprised that people preferred the lesser of two evils? Consider how Sinwar went on to start this entire mess in October 7th and think of how, while useless and evil, he most likely wouldn't been hell-bent on radicalizing the entire place because of how suicidal it would have been. The West Bank had its elections suspended indefinitely because Fatah knew that allowing people to vote for Hamas, who are very much present in there and receive plenty of support by Palestinians due to their more proactive beliefs (They like them because they are more extreme than even the PLO), could only end up with the West Bank turned into a second Gaza Strip.
Because, on top of the fact Hamas is on record saying that taking care of Gaza's basic necessities like running water and its electric grid is NOT their responsibility, leaving it wholly unregulated will only result in more attacks coming out of it and more things being smuggled into the place. October 7th only proved exactly why Israel does all of that, and it was only the latest such attack from Gaza over the course of 20 years.
Israel WAS open to peace plans before, but the continued attack (Which I'm surprised you even acknowledged) and all those broken ceasefires kind of made them cynical about thinking that Palestinians would ever want coexistence. That they never actually stopped their damn jihad after 2006 was their first clue- there is a reason why Israel even needs the Iron Dome.
Pklnt@reddit
Oh look, suddenly there is no reason or justification for murdering women and children.
mschuster91@reddit
Well, Hamas waged war against Israel, not the other way around. The fact that they embedded themselves deep into civilian infrastructure (a war crime, by the way) is not Israel's fault either.
Pklnt@reddit
If Palestinians started to colonize Israeli lands, how would you call that?
CamisaMalva@reddit
Except there had been no Israeli in Gaza since 2005?
Iamover18ustupidshit@reddit
Yeah not in Gaza, just around it controlling all aspects of life in Gaza including control of rainwater that falls in Gaza, and what kind of chocolates are allowed in there and anyone exiting and entering having to wait hours every day at checkpoints.
Oh and except for everyone in Gaza having to register with the Israelis, getting rounded up whenever they want and getting arrested for posting a Palestinian flag in on social media.
Gosh, these darn civili- sorry, terrorists just trying to do day-to-day things and being alive? How dare they?!
CamisaMalva@reddit
Clearly you weren't paying attention when Gaza's own government said that taking care of basic necessities like water and electricity was not their responsibility, but Israel's and everyone else pitching in with the humanitarian aid (Which Hamas then pocketed to keep funding it senseless war and enrich their political party). They don't take care of that stuff because they really want to, otherwise they wouldn't have pulled out of Gaza like 20 years ago- the alternative would be completely letting Gazans to fend for themselves, y'know?
And those checkpoints? Well, that's what happens when you commit so many terrorist acts against neighbors- and I "neighbors" because Egypt subjects Gaza to the same kind of blockade given their ties to the Islamic Brotherhood, also known as the terrorist group that's been a colossal pain in the ass to Egypt and of which Hamas is an offshoot/ally. If you're gonna act like it is Israel's fault that they keep get attacked by Palestinians then you should think the same of Egypt... And probably Lebanon, since its opinion of Palestinians has been pretty much the same since the Black September civil war. Kuwait too, now that we're at it.
You didn't know why Palestinians in Gaza are subjected to such scrutiny and distrust? Well, there you have it. October 7th was just the latest incident proving that Gaza is offended by Israel's mere existence and how they refuse to let that slide.
Iamover18ustupidshit@reddit
Clearly you weren't paying attention to the fact that Israel is considered an occupying state - it IS its responsibility to meet certain obligations
ps://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/menasource/gaza-israel-occupied-international-law/
Also Israel isn't a benevolent "provider" with altruistic dreams. It charged Hamas/PA three times the cost of fuel that Egypt used to charge. Oh, and it also conducted an airstrike on the lone power station in Gaza back in 2006 which reduced the power capability by half.
https://www.btselem.org/gaza_strip/20170117_electricity_crisis
CamisaMalva@reddit
Shouldn't the problem be that Gaza's own governing body would rather not do its job and just pocket the humanitarian aid to line their political branch's pockets while funding their holy war? It's crazy to me that Israel still has to foot the bill for a place they intended to leave two decades ago.
Because they gotta take care of not just their basic utilities, but also those of two other territories that actively try to kill them? Tell me if you'd feel benevolent by having to pay for everything your two abusive ex-spouses need even after you tried leaving them.
And last I heard Hamas had been the one to destroy everything Israel had built in Gaza after assuming power, even things like greenhouses, simply because they were of Israeli design. Not to mention this particular incident you mention was sparked because Hamas chose to kidnap a Corporal, which is kind of stupid since they depend on Israel to keep their lights on, AND the entire process to solve this situation was complicated because of a dispute between Hamas and the PLO.
This sounds like the consequences of their actions if you ask me. It's terrible that civilians have to put up with shit like that, but then they probably shouldn't have voted for Hamas to begin with.
Ajmb_88@reddit
You’re a joke. I bet you think Israel planting bombs in pagers Isn’t a war crime? Israel has been hostile since the Nakba.
mschuster91@reddit
Well, with the exception of a few bystanders everyone hit was a Hamas official and thus a legitimate target. Personally, I prefer this over flattening misappropriated civilian buildings in Gaza, but you do you.
redelastic@reddit
Your German genocide boner shames us all.
redelastic@reddit
Why are you not ascribing any responsibility to Israel? Y'know, the ones doing the killing.
I see genocide denial is still running strong.
CamisaMalva@reddit
October 7th was deliberate, genius.
With Gaza, not only is there no feasible way to wage an urban war that's free of collateral damage (Much like there is absolutely no way to wage war in such a way that only combatants will ever die) but let's not conveniently forget that Hamas works entirely from within civilian infrastructure.
This isn't that one Iron Man scene where he had a sci-fi targeting system that could only target obvious bad guys, what you're seeing is war not exactly being a clean and easy affair.
Pklnt@reddit
Cut the bullshit, they shot babies in the head the last time they occupied Gaza.
Iamover18ustupidshit@reddit
But you see, those reports are fake and those doctors aren't even real doctors /s
At least that's what I've heard and seen from the Israel side of the discourse when presented with the statements from these doctors as well as X-rays and all the other evidence.
this_dudeagain@reddit
Yes that happened on Oct 7th....
BehemothDeTerre@reddit
Are you really going to justify the murder of women and children?
Pklnt@reddit
Are you?
BehemothDeTerre@reddit
I will not, no, but you just did.
Pklnt@reddit
Alright, glad to hear that you condemn Israel's actions.
BehemothDeTerre@reddit
Your trolling might be cute if you didn't just justify a terrorist attack. As is, it's just repugnant.
Pklnt@reddit
It's hilarious how you keep missing the point.
The point isn't me justifying a terrorist attack, I never did. The point is to showcase how hypocrites you pro-Israelis are. You keep justifying inhumane treatments of Palestinian civilians and when you're faced with your own logic that would also justify October 7, you give us crocodile tears.
Cry me a river.
BehemothDeTerre@reddit
No, I got that you were trying to equate a deliberate act of terrorism with collateral damage in war (but just this one war, not any other). It's not an uncommon line from Hamas supporters.
You did.
I didn't do any such thing, I just objected to your justification of the murder of women and children.
By the way, I'm not "pro-Israeli", I'm anti-Hamas. You pro-Hamas types get confused about that.
Ajmb_88@reddit
You’re a hypocrite.
JeffJefferson19@reddit
Your division of Gaza and the West Bank into separate entities isn’t really one the Palestinian people share. Palestinians in Gaza view crimes against Palestinians in the West Bank as crimes against “them”.
CamisaMalva@reddit
You really haven't been paying much attention if you think that's the case.
Bro, Gazan Palestinian murdered representatives of the West Bank's government after winning the 2005 elections so that they'd have absolutely zero political rivals, and the West Bank suspended elections indefinitely because they didn't want their civilian population's support for Hamas and their even more extreme anti-Israel fanaticism to turn them into a second Gaza.
JeffJefferson19@reddit
I said Palestinian people.
Fatah vs Hamas is an internal Palestinian struggle. Not a struggle of two distinct nations.
CamisaMalva@reddit
Dawg, Hamas has a well-known presence in the West Bank beyond just being supported by Palestinians there that the authorities are clearly against.
Not to say Fatah is any better, but Gazans see their West Bank unfavorably for not being as extreme as they are. See what this extremism has brought to Gaza, it's hard to disagree with Fatah for not allowing people to elect their own leaders.
arostrat@reddit
what kind of stupid question is that? Much more than what Germany have to do with Ukraine for example.
redelastic@reddit
Germany could, you know, stop supplying weapons to blow the arms off toddlers. It's not that hard.
Yodamort@reddit
If the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising had captured Wehrmacht soldiers along with some German settlers who had moved nearby, would you be blaming the Jewish resistance organizations? Insisting that the SS refuse to negotiate and continue with their campaign of wiping the ghetto from the face of the earth?
What if they had already made an agreement, promising to release the prisoners in waves in exchange for a cessation of hostilities? What if the Germans broke that agreement, and began bombing the shit out of the Jews held within the ghetto regardless, talking about how much they definitely care about rescuing the hostages being held as leverage by the resistance organizations in there? Would you believe them?
ProbablyNotTacitus@reddit
How are you an anti fascist advocating for the IDFs actions. You should be ashamed dude
thirtyuhmspeed@reddit
I hope all hostages are released as fast as possible, that was meant for Phase 2 of the ceasefire, but Satanyahu and his ghouls said there will be no lasting peace and phase 2,because the financeminister Smotrich threatened to destroy the coalition. So tell me why sabotage your ceasefire deal that guarantees all hostages to be released?
The IDF even recaptured hostages that they released in terms of the ceasefire agreement.
Rizen_Wolf@reddit
Not if you know Arabic or Farsi. Its just a lot clearer in English I guess.
arostrat@reddit
whataboutism is fast nowadays
drink_bleach_and_die@reddit
That's the other side of this conflict. Hardly whataboutism.
redelastic@reddit
It's whataboutism when Israel has killed well over 50 times the number of people and is carrying out war crimes daily.
Don't "both sides" a genocide.
drink_bleach_and_die@reddit
Ah yes, the genocide that has been taking over 50 years to be executed despite the perpetrator's overwhelming millitary superiority. Because genocidal powers are notorious for voluntarily withdrawing from their desired territory AFTER SUCCESFULY INVADING IT, then allowing the locals (who belong to the ethnicity the perpetrator wishes to genocide) to set up their own administration, and then only going back in after being attacked. And even after invading again, only killing a fraction of the people they apparently want to genocide.
redelastic@reddit
You may be an apologist for atrocities and crimes against humanity, others are not.
Keep supporting the mass murder of children, I guess.
HugsForUpvotes@reddit
How many minds have you changed so far?
Israel isn't measuring their combat goals to a high K/D ratio. They have successfully destroyed their three biggest rivals entire leadership structure. You want us to believe they got lucky they are blowing up kids and just got lucky they took out the entire leadership of Hamas and Hezbollah while aiming for the kids.
You either think Hamas is a righteous resistance group or you think it's a viable defense to attack your neighbor, take hostages and then hide yourselves around children.
If Israel didn't take out Sinwar, Haniyeh, Deif, Issa and Arouri, I might believe that they are being indiscriminate. If Israel didn't take out Nasrallah, Karaki, Safieddine, Kaquk, Aqil, Wahbi, and Shukr, I might believe there are being indiscriminate.
redelastic@reddit
You're a war crimes denier.
Sounds like you also don't know the history of the illegal occupation.
Keep paying those tax dollars to fund killing kids.
I don't give a fuck about changing the mind of genocide supporters.
HugsForUpvotes@reddit
I'm upset at those dead kids too. I blame Hamas for every single death in Gaza. Maybe don't continuously start flights with people smarter, stronger and better equipped than you. Maybe fight in the fields instead of using civilian infrastructure to kill Israeli soldiers.
If you want less deaths, why aren't you mad at Hamas that was forcing everyone to not evacuate by gunpoint because they need the civilians to be their shields.
At the end of the day, nobody on your side learned a lesson. You all still think that violence is the answer and going to bring about a single state solution. You take zero responsibility for the extreme degradation of Gaza and instead are happy that those people lost their homes. To you, it helps win a political argument. You didn't lose shit. You're living in the western world - and you're comfortable fighting to the last Palestinian in a war they can't win. Don't act like you're on some pedestal. From your own mouth, you aren't trying to change minds. You're just here for the violence.
redelastic@reddit
No, you don't give a shit.
Maybe you should blame the people actually killing the kids.
Enjoy being a war crimes deniier.
AlauddinGhilzai@reddit
They literally took out Sinwar by pure chance of running into him. Haniyeh was killed in Iran not even Gaza. Arouri was killed in Lebanon not even Gaza. So your only points are Deif and Issa.
If you really believe Israel isn't doing a genocide, then why is Israel:
1: Not allowing anesthesia to enter Gaza? This is even more inexcusable than blockading food, cuz at least in theory Al Qassam *could* feed themselves with that food too, but they have no use for anesthesia. It's very obvious that their goal is for the people of Gaza to feel pain and they don't want to give them even the relief of anesthesia!
2: Why does Israel prevent medical evacuations from Gaza? When a Hezb rocket resulted in the accidental killing of 12 occupied-Syrian-Druze kids from the Golan Heights (whether it was an errant iron dome missile as a result of the Hezb rocket or the rocket itself isn't that relevant), Israel cancelled the permits of 2000 gazan children to exit Gaza through Kerem Shalom crossing for medical treatment in UAE. Tens of thousands more never even got a permit to be cancelled in the first place, and were just sentenced to a slow death.
3: Why does Israel not occupy hospitals after raiding them on the suspicion of Al Qassam presence, so that civilians can still use the hospitals without Al Qassam supposedly returning, but they immediately leave after raiding? Then two months later they raid the same hospital, it gets more damaged, then instead of staying they leave? They they raid again & leave & raid & leave & raid & leave until there's nothing left except smoldering smithereens?? It's obvious that there is no significant al qassam presence in Gaza's hospitals, and Israel just wants to destroy the hospitals bit-by-bit instead of all-at-once since that'd be too obvious.
Iamover18ustupidshit@reddit
To add to your points, why does Israel even have the ability to cancel "permits" for residents of Gaza?
They whined and complained about UNRWA even though UNRWA provides a list of ALL employees that Israel combs through before okay-ing, yet suddenly the Israeli government "missed" the allegedly "hundreds and thousands" of employees linked with Hamas.
And lest we forget their blatant horrifying use of AI in Lavender and Daddy's home where they killed entire families to target low level Hamas members.
I'm so tired of this bullshit from Zionists or apologists or bots repeating old shit that everyone can easily disprove.
I-Make-Maps91@reddit
Those assassinations show they very much are being indiscriminate. They *could* take out the specific people, but they aren't, they're killing tens of thousands.
HugsForUpvotes@reddit
But they did? Are you saying it's indiscriminate to kill anyone but your top targets?
They could take out those specific people because they did the work. They limited their bases until they could locate them and kill them. I'm not defending everybody Israel killed, but you can't say it's indiscriminate when Israel is taking out their targets with precise bombing. Civilians die in war and it's terrible. Gaza is extremely urban and the civilians weren't allowed to evacuate and Hamas used the evacuation routes that Israel created as launch sites to forcing Israel's hand. Everyone familiar with this conflict on October 6th knew people were going to die as Israel took every measure to root out Hamas. Many of us expected worse, but we also didn't expect Israel to win so easily, especially with Hezbollah.
I-Make-Maps91@reddit
If you kill \~50k and happen to kill some of your targets, that's coincidental. If you kill a few dozen as you kill your target, that's still morally abhorrent but you could at least argue it was targeted.
Israel is a vile state that is doing a genocide and slow rolling an ethnic cleansing, though if they and Trump get their way it's going to speed up rapidly.
Fuck off with this apologia for such indiscriminate killing.
HugsForUpvotes@reddit
Israel has killed less than 1% of the Palestinian people and killed every single major commander in Hamas and Hezbollah along with tens of thousands of their soldiers. You can't argue that it's coincidental. Part of that percentage and your 50k figure are combatants. We won't ever know the exact civilian:terrorist ratio, but we'll get a good idea after the dust settles.
Are you seriously arguing that they just so happened to kill all of these commanders and their next three lines of successors? At what point do you hold Hamas accountable for being grossly incompetent and raising the stakes instead of Israel for no longer dealing with them after October 7th.
You won't see me hitting Connor McGregor because I think he's a shitty human being. He'd beat me to death. Being impractical is not impressive to me.
Iamover18ustupidshit@reddit
Huh? Less than 1%? Are you living in a timeline that's 1+ year behind?
They've murdered 60,000+ people which is already 3% of the population with literally hundreds of thousands injured and maimed.
Also did you conveniently forget "Lavender" and "Daddy's Home" - that's literal war crimes. And Israel's ministers and top officials have publicly and repeatedly claimed that they want the people of Gaza to get "resettled" somewhere else. That's ethnic cleaning.
I know you're an Israeli apologist but don't be so blatantly daft.
I-Make-Maps91@reddit
Hamas can fuck off too, same as your apologia bullshit.
See how easy that is? You don't need to defend the people who killed, by their own admission, at least 30k civilians. Israel claims 20k Hamas killed, but given they follow the US route of "every male of fighting age is a terrorist," I doubt that very much.
But keep defending the deaths of those innocents, there's a nice warm place in hell for war mongers like you.
HugsForUpvotes@reddit
Does telling them to fuck off remove them from political power and prevent them from terrorizing? Unfortunately sometimes war is required and that means innocent people will get caught in the crossfire.
Hamas needs to go. It's time for Palestinians to get a final chance at electing a leader that builds Palestine instead of fighting Israel. If they can't, we'll have another war and then I'm in support of giving them a ruler appointed jointly by the UN and Israel.
I just want the violence to end. I think that's Pro Palestinian. You disagree but point to the amount of innocent people caught in the war Hamas started when they broke the ceasefire on October 7th. Israel achieved its mission. That alone shows it wasn't indiscriminate. Now it's time to win the diplomatic mission - force Hamas to surrender control of the government. If that fails, it's going to fall to plan B.
You have an unrealistic expectation of war and you're the one cheering for it to continue. You don't take hostages and kill over a thousand people to have a dialogue. I think you are the warmonger and being on the losing side of a war doesn't make your cause noble.
I-Make-Maps91@reddit
Nah, being pro the people bombing Palestinians is not pro Palestine. Fuck off with this new speak bullshit, too. You don't get to support the deaths of hundreds (and that's what you're doing, even if you can't bring yourself to admit it) and then say you support them.
No, I know exactly what war is, this is not a war. There was a ceasefire, Israel broke it, and now they've killed another 1,000 people as you make excuses for them. Israel wasn't interested in diplomacy, that's why they were going ahead with the planned ethnic cleansing and depopulation plan proposed by Trump.
But keep making excuses for genocide and ethnic cleansing. Don't try and say it's not, even Israeli generals and genocide scholars can admit what it is, show at least as much courage as they are.
But this is clearly a waste of my time, so I'll just end with this. You're a vile sycophant for tyrants and my only hope is you grow enough as a person to be ashamed of yourself in the future, but I'm not going to hold my breath.
HugsForUpvotes@reddit
Hamas broke the ceasefire. They announced it. Just like they broke the ceasefire on October 7th. You have no solutions and you have shown that you're willing to lie to win. When all that failed, you insulted me. Classic.
northrupthebandgeek@reddit
Israel being better at genocide than the Iranian proxies it's fighting doesn't make those proxies any less genocidal.
redelastic@reddit
I suppose that's fine if you ignore that Israel has killed over 20,000 children.
northrupthebandgeek@reddit
Again:
redelastic@reddit
Again:
How many Israeli children have been killed? 37
How many Palestinian children have been killed? Over 20,000
Nothing to see here!
northrupthebandgeek@reddit
Being consistent about calling out war crimes no matter who's doing them ≠ supporting war crimes.
redelastic@reddit
"But what about Sudan".
Nah, you're just deflecting from Israel's war crimes. It's quite obvious.
northrupthebandgeek@reddit
I think the Guinness has sterilized one too many of your neurons if you think my repeated explicit acknowledgments of Israeli war crimes in both of our concurrent conversations somehow constitutes "deflecting".
redelastic@reddit
What a banal attempt at a joke. I'll leave you to your whataboutism, minimisation and historical revisionism.
feraleuropean@reddit
Banal as in banality of evil or banal as in 'ethno-colonial genocide enthusiasts have a really short fuse before the colonial savage that they truly are needs to drop the pretense of having any good faith argument and throws a classic illiterate insult'?
northrupthebandgeek@reddit
k
redelastic@reddit
Let's change the subject from the mass killing of children.
Left_Pie9808@reddit
That part lol
this_dudeagain@reddit
Why not just release the hostages then? I don't think Oct 7 was acceptable behavior either.
redelastic@reddit
After all this time, you still think this is about the hostages?
The hostages are justification for Israel ethnically cleansing Gaza - but Israel has shown repeatedly by its military actions that the hostages are way down the list of priorities.
northrupthebandgeek@reddit
If it ain't about the hostages, then that's easy to prove: release them and let Israel be the bad guys. There clearly ain't any strategic advantage in keeping them around, given that the IDF is just as fine with "accidentally" blowing up hostages as they are with "accidentally" blowing up Palestinian civilians.
Iamover18ustupidshit@reddit
If it was about the hostages why didn't Israel just move on to Phase 2 of the ceasefire agreement?
redelastic@reddit
Perhaps you only started paying attention to Israel's actions since 2023. They've been doing this shit for decades.
Shame on the US too for funding child murder and ethnic cleansing.
northrupthebandgeek@reddit
Not anywhere near the same degree that Gaza has been experiencing since 2023. The West Bank ain't exactly sunshine and rainbows, either, but last I checked the children there ain't being bombed to smithereens by the thousands annually - you know, almost as if Fatah had already tried Hamas' approach decades ago and already learned the hard way that it doesn't work.
redelastic@reddit
Actually, in 2023 the West Bank had the highest rate in decades of children being killed by Israel - that was before October 7.
But I wouldn't expect US genocide supporters to pay attention to such small details as human lives.
northrupthebandgeek@reddit
And that was still orders of magnitude fewer than in Gaza.
You can quote where I've supported a genocide at your leisure.
redelastic@reddit
Obviously fewer people killed but that's hardly the point.
I find those who say nothing to condemn war crimes and genocide usually tacitly support it.
College_Throwaway002@reddit
That was literally the point of Phase 2, which Israel had repeatedly refused talks and proceeded to violate Phase 1 agreements (not allowing enough aid in).
If Israel was interested in its hostages and wanted to appear as the humanitarians they claim to be, why did they not agreement to Phase 2 talks?
meister2983@reddit
Definitely collective punishment and war crimes. Ethnic cleansing is a sort of (The IDF fliers are threatening ethnic cleansing as a punishment). Not sure where the genocidal intent is being expressed (surrender or die is not genocidal intent. Genocidal intent is die or die).
Well, yes, everyone sees it as a consequence. Just like I'm sure the Allies knew they were massively killing lots of Axis children.
redelastic@reddit
Seems like you're defending the indefensible. Do you support the killing of children?
Genocidal intent, or dolus specialis, is the specific mental element required to classify an act as genocide under international law; it's the intent to destroy a national, ethnical, racial, or religious group, in whole or in part, as such.
There are many examples by Israeli leaders. You must have missed them all. "There are no innocent civilians in Gaza"..."They have no right to exist"..."Total annihilation" etc.
The world's leading genocide experts have already concluded that there are "reasonable grounds" a genocide is taking place. Many genocide scholars and human rights groups too. The ICJ says it is plausible and they have yet to make a final ruling (these cases take years).
It's a bit ridiculous to make comparisons to the Second World War - before the Genocide Convention (or indeed most international law) existed.
meister2983@reddit
What a strange question. For the hell of it, no. But should a paramilitary get to be invincible because it is near children? Also no.
Read through the endless actual leader lines. It is not genocide is the primary intent is to force a political group's surrender (though certainly other war crimes may be present); the primary intent does not seem to be that or they would have easily killed far far more people by now.
redelastic@reddit
Seems like you do support the killing of children and are a genocide denier. Your choice, I guess.
meister2983@reddit
So your position is that if Hamas surrendered tomorrow, Israel would kill all Gazans? If so, why haven't they already? Not like Hamas is offering much defense there.
Aaron_Hamm@reddit
I think Bibi would come up with another reason to continue the violence, yes. It's the only thing keeping him in power.
The fact of the matter is that Hamas wanted to move on to phase two and Israel said "no, we're gonna start fighting again".
That's just the plain truth.
meister2983@reddit
Technically, Israel was fine with Phase 2 but they wanted it to include Hamas surrendering. Hamas said no, so Israel said to hell with Phase 2 negotiations.
Less_Car5915@reddit
Pretty unreasonable to have absolute surrender of sovereignty as a condition of negotiation, don’t you think? Would you expect Israel to consider such terms if Hamas had put them forward? Or any nation/ resistance group for that matter? Such a condition is clearly just pre-tense to end the cease fire, resume their genocidal campaign, and frame it as hamas’ failure to comply with “peace talks”. Whether they accepted Israel’s terms or not, the Israelis get what they want: complete control over the remaining Palestinian Territories.
meister2983@reddit
Not with the power dynamics as they are.
Less_Car5915@reddit
By “unreasonable” I don’t mean that the demand isn’t supported by sufficient leverage. I mean that it’s an empty demand designed to justify the actions they truly want to take.
meister2983@reddit
So your argument is that they can't demand Hamas surrender because Hamas won't surrender?
Less_Car5915@reddit
no. my argument is that they were done playing by the rules of the cease fire and so decided to offer an empty demand to justify going back to business as usual while making Hamas seem unreasonable for not agreeing to “peace terms”.
meister2983@reddit
Why is Hamas not surrendering "reasonable"?
Less_Car5915@reddit
resistance is their only means of survival. Israel clearly isn’t willing to approach anything regarding the Palestinian plight in a diplomatic way. if Israel is going to demolish them and settle in their ruins regardless, why would they abandon their struggle?
meister2983@reddit
Why? Israel's surrender terms are exile from gaza, not death penalty.
Irrelevant. The choice is be bombed and die or surrender. Surrender is a better option at this point.
Aaron_Hamm@reddit
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/israel-gaza-ceasefire-palestine-hamas-netanyahu-what-know-rcna197012
meister2983@reddit
That's not entirely correct. Stage 1 expired March 1, without stage 2 happening (for reasons I noted), so Israel proposed extending Stage 1. Hamas rejected that.
Aaron_Hamm@reddit
I'm quoting the news. Feel free to bring your own sources
meister2983@reddit
https://www.brookings.edu/articles/gaza-ceasefire-what-the-israel-hamas-agreement-means/
redelastic@reddit
You are again falsely defining genocide - I already provided the definition in another comment.
meister2983@reddit
If no more destruction occurs after a political movement surrenders, the intention was the political movement surrendering, not to destroy the population.
redelastic@reddit
Deranged logic and a laughable defence.
Dry-Season-522@reddit
Sounds like you are demanding that someone who straps babies all over themselves is not allowed to be shot no matter what they do.
redelastic@reddit
I'm sorry you support the mass murder of children but I can't help you discover a moral compass.
Unable_Duck9588@reddit
Actually, you aren’t allowed to do that.
Something tells me you wouldn’t say the same things about Israeli babies.
Dry-Season-522@reddit
So they're not allowed to do it. But if they do, it's resistance... right?
Dry-Season-522@reddit
Allied bombings killed Nazi children. Therefore the Nazis should have just been pushed back to their original borders and the war declared over, right?
redelastic@reddit
I've no interest in making false comparisons with WWII.
LEFT4Sp00ning@reddit
You guys have really been trying to make "Israel is the Allies and Palestine is the nazis" thing work but kinda hard for it to stick when Israel's the one doing genocide
meister2983@reddit
If they were doing genocide, all Gazans would be dead by now.
LEFT4Sp00ning@reddit
Ah yes, that's why every single jewish person and Bosnian in existence are no longer on this mortal plane. What a shame, I'm gonna miss 'em
meister2983@reddit
Except the Serbians actually did kill all the men and boys in Srebreneca..
Nazis actually killed the vast majority of Jews in areas they controlled.
sadderall-sea@reddit
damn, guess what Israel is doing now. the answer may shock you! 😱
meister2983@reddit
3% after 1.5 years?
sadderall-sea@reddit
are.... actually measuring human life based on how many have been killed? are you a serial killer?
meister2983@reddit
Determining intent. An Israel intent on genociding the Gazans really should have been more "successful" by now.
sadderall-sea@reddit
how do you def8ne success? every palestinian in Gaza will have generational trauma, a decent amount of people have had limbs decimated (if they survived) and most importantly a disproportionate amount of children have been killed
bgenesis07@reddit
That is kind of relevant to whether something is a genocide though.
In the same way that something hasn't really been decimated unless one in ten people have been killed
It's a definitions thing.
LEFT4Sp00ning@reddit
It is not nearly as relevant as you seem to think it is. "Only" 8000 people died during the Bosnian genocide, doesn't make it not one simply because it's a low percentage of the population that got killed
celloh234@reddit
**all** the men and boys?
meister2983@reddit
Fair, it was 33% of the city and > 50% of the ones that were unable to escape.
ArCovino@reddit
Yes what is what made that specific incident a genocide.
metamorphotits@reddit
so nazis can wipe out "most" of the jews for it to be a genocide, but it's gotta be "all" gazans?
LEFT4Sp00ning@reddit
Friendo, tell me something. Are there still jewish people and bosnians that are alive on this earth? Maybe even armenians, maybe romani? If so, then that throws out your very stupid assertion of "If they were doing genocide, all Gazans would be dead by now." because then we gotta say that basically every single genocide in the history of mankind, unless it completely wiped out its target, is actually NOT a genocide. Yes, this includes the holocaust.
redelastic@reddit
You seem to not be familiar with the legal definition of what constitutes a genocide.
Genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
Shiroi_Kage@reddit
I don't think he's familiar with much to be honest.
redelastic@reddit
Agreed. See his nonsense on here often enough.
sadderall-sea@reddit
by your logic, the genocide commies by europeans against indigenous people around the world doesn't count either
itonically, that reaffirms the whole ethnostate/colony Israel is trying to create even more
meister2983@reddit
There were plenty of targeted "kill them all campaigns".
CwazyCanuck@reddit
Kind of like how there are no more Jews because Nazis committed genocide, right?
Or maybe learn the definition of genocide.
meister2983@reddit
They didn't control the entirety of the world.
They actually did kill \~80% of the Jews in areas they control.
Old-Raspberry9684@reddit
So the holocaust wasn't a genocide by your standards?
Turing_Testes@reddit
If Indians were genocided then how’s comes we still gots Indians hmmmmm? Curious
Pinkocommiebikerider@reddit
Genocide isn’t based on how fast or slow it happens
NahIWiIIWin@reddit
Hamas only failed to kill as much Israelis because thousands of their rockets headed into populated areas are intercepted and because Israelis have bomb shelters everywhere.
just because Hamas failed doing their genocide doesn't mean they're not genocidal
LEFT4Sp00ning@reddit
Okay cool. Hey remind me how many Palestinians Israel's killed since they broke the ceasefire? Wouldn't be something like 500+ in 3-4 days with 200 children included in those 500+, would it?
celloh234@reddit
the joke writes itself
sadderall-sea@reddit
lmao stop using old terminology and start calling it what it is. that zio propaganda works on you and your ethnistate, but not on anyone with two eyes and a brain
Dry-Season-522@reddit
War crime? Oh no, better send your people to be war police. See how that goes for them, and how it's gone for every country to take palestinian refugees. Ask Kuwait.
jrabieh@reddit
Oh hey, heres one of people you were talking about
Winter_Result_8734@reddit
Man that’s why I like the Irish, just like the people from Spain. Always on the good side
Greedy_Honey_1829@reddit
Spain? Ex colonial state Spain? Yeah always on the good side
davedcne@reddit
So you forgot about the white death? Franco? Fracno's spain providing amnesty and safe harbor for Nazi political leaders? The "deal of silence"? Every nation commits atrocities. Every single one. It is the nature of government to do terrible things in the nature of preserving its self.
Winter_Result_8734@reddit
Yeah I noticed the falsehood of my statement too but didn’t change it. Didn’t think it was necessary.
I should’ve added in recent times or something like that
soyyoo@reddit
Chin chin 🥂
GlitteringDaikon93@reddit
The Irish who were neutral in WW2 and the Spanish who had fascists in power for decades are always on the good side? Lmao
Roland_91_@reddit
According to the UN, all war is genocide.
The term has lost a lot of meaning.
Godwinson4King@reddit
That’s an absurd statement. Here’s the UN’s fact sheet on genocide in case you care to educate yourself. The most relevant section:
Roland_91_@reddit
Yes. Destroy a national group - including forced displacement.
So name me a war that was not a genocide, or contained in it, elements of genocide
Godwinson4King@reddit
It is the definition used by the international community and the definition used in international law. It’s useful because it’s the only definition that matters because if the UN agrees it is a genocide then all signatories of the charter are obliged to act to stop the genocide. It’s the only definition that matters.
Roland_91_@reddit
So how do you go to war with Gaza - that has no formal military - without it being a genocide?
memester314@reddit
I know habibi, it's tough is it to not threaten genocide, ethnic cleansing, bombing thousands of children, starving a whole population, putting up killzones without informing civilians, bombing safe areas, blocking water and electricity, and many more things.
My advice: Don't Do That!
Roland_91_@reddit
Then they should release the hostages.
If they are still being attacked while holding no one, I will then believe it is genocide rather than a just war.
Godwinson4King@reddit
Bullshit. You’d find a new justification for the genocide. This bombing campaign will kill far more hostages than it will save. It’ll kill tons of innocent civilians too, but I doubt you are bothered by that.
Roland_91_@reddit
Neither are the Muslims. They call their dead Martyrs. They believe that their dead are now in paradise. They celebrate their sacrifice.
How do you scare a group of people like that? How do you stop them from raiding your boarders and blowing themselves up on buses?
memester314@reddit
Full on Masks off. Thanks for that bud.
Roland_91_@reddit
I don't know what that means.
memester314@reddit
Don't worry about it bud.
Roland_91_@reddit
You are welcome to prove me wrong tho
memester314@reddit
You cannot empathize with Palestinians. To you they're not people with hopes or ambitions. They're just terrorists, there's no point talking to you. Go justify genocide and ethnic cleansing somewhere else.
Roland_91_@reddit
The west bank sure.
The hopes and ambitions of the Gazans are "kill the Jews" and I cannot empathise with that
jayesper@reddit
Says you. That is all, so you can have the reality you lust for.
Roland_91_@reddit
Ok pal
memester314@reddit
They should, but Israel shouldn't be doing war crimes.
Godwinson4King@reddit
You fight armed insurgents.
Did you think that using non-state actors were a secret loophole to guaranteed false genocide accusations?
Roland_91_@reddit
Well no I didn't think it a loophole. But when 70% of the community back the armed insurgents, it does make the line fuzzier
Godwinson4King@reddit
No. It’s never okay to kill unarmed civilians.
Let’s apply your rationale to Israeli civilians. In a country where everyone must serve in the military, can anyone be an innocent civilian? Are settlers who occupy illegal settlements any different from soldiers in a military occupation just because they’re not armed?
It’s always wrong to attack unarmed civilians. It’s always wrong to commit genocide and it’s disgusting that I have to explain that to you. You’ve fallen for the dehumanizing propaganda to the point that you see the slaughter of people as justified.
Roland_91_@reddit
one side says stop Hamas and protect the boarders, give our hostages back.
The other side are saying "kill all the Jews"
It's very hard to play the humanity card when their mantra is inherently dehumanising
redelastic@reddit
That is the definition of the literal Genocide Convention, the basis of the legal definition of genocide.
ChipsTheKiwi@reddit
Hey how much does defending genocide pay?
Roland_91_@reddit
You are the American, you tell me
ChipsTheKiwi@reddit
Don't know, I think genocide is wrong despite the fact my government participates in it. Personally I can't fathom how morally bankrupt one has to be to defend an explicit threat of genocide for free.
Roland_91_@reddit
Well the other option is to allow a fundamentalist death cult continue to harass your boarders, massacre your people and fire rockets into your country.
So how do you stop a fundamentalist death cult without killing people?
Unable_Duck9588@reddit
The exact same things are absolutely true for the Israelis though… and they’ve been doing it for decades.
Ignoring that fact becsuse you are xenophobic towards muslims doesn’t make you right.
And yes, equating all of gaza to Hamas is xenophobic and, franku, ignorant.
Roland_91_@reddit
Hamas still has majority support.
not against "all Muslims" just the ones that can morally justify blowing themselves up on a public bus.
ChipsTheKiwi@reddit
Genuinely one of the most racist things I've read today, Zionists really are the new Nazis
Roland_91_@reddit
Genuinely, tell me what bit is racist?
ChipsTheKiwi@reddit
You literally just said Palestinians mourn the fact Jews are alive you genocidal maniac
Roland_91_@reddit
What bit is racist?
ChipsTheKiwi@reddit
Please explain how it's not extremely fucking racist to want to eradicate an entire population because a specific group of them are terrorists.
Unable_Duck9588@reddit
Hamas are terrorists that oppose the death, destruction and displacement of their people.
They are terrorists and do terrorist things, Israel, being the so called ‘democracy’ and ‘moral army’ in this situation are absolutely no different.
Nothing Israel has done in the last 80 years has made Israel any safer, in fact it will ensure a perpetuation if voilence until something horrible inevitably happens, a large regional war that lasts for years, maybe leading to a new world war included…
Israel has never stopped provoking or displacing people, it needs to stop, but the entire Israeli government runs on the bloodshed unfortunately.
There are plenty of level headed Israelis who want there to be some form of agreement, but the right wing nutjobs are only there to ensure the perpetual need for them and therefore their power.
Let’s also remember that Israel itself was born of terror and has many state apparatus, including modern day Mossad, IDF and shin bet that originated from terrorist groups and gangs. Resistance is what got Israel to where it is and its expectation that noone else is allowed that resistance will lead to Israelis never feeling safe.
And that is a fact
Roland_91_@reddit
I don't particularly disagree.
But if you were in the position to choose only one of these societies to exist, and the other simply vanished, giving their lands to the other - which would you choose?
Unable_Duck9588@reddit
vanish?
Is this some sort of video game? Why does anyone have to vanish?
I wonder what this question will lead to.
Roland_91_@reddit
Because it is a thought experiment, and the word vanish implies a bloodless magical solution.
now are you willing to answer the question or not?
Unable_Duck9588@reddit
Grow up man. Nobody wants anyone to vanish. We’re on a topic about an actual genocide.
I’d rather nobody gets genocided bloodless or magically…
Making a mockery of the situation with irrelevant hypotheticals is a waste of time.
Roland_91_@reddit
No it's not. If you ask a Muslim they will be able to answer the question instantly.
So if like to know which you would pick
Unable_Duck9588@reddit
Brother, I’ve lived with muslims and non muslims in many countries and used to be one. Nobody wants anyone to vanish.
This is peak ignorance and xenophobia.
There are Australians that hate and wish the aboriginals gone, does that make every white Australian a participant in genocide?
Please grow up. You’re living in a fantasy and you’re grouping an entire religion of billions of people into one mindless monolith. This is what xenophobia and ignorance is.
Grow up.
Roland_91_@reddit
No it isn't, it is a very simple question to frame the 2 possible outcomes.
The other option is you enjoy the continual war, and prefer a state of chaos.
Unable_Duck9588@reddit
There aren’t two possible outcomes. Suggesting there is and its the only way for peace is incredibly ignorant, if not outright dishonest.
I am assuming, for your sake that you are just ignorant and don’t know much about anything and refuse o entertain it any longer, otherwise, you’re just a hateful racist.
it’s incredible how the internet empowers people like you, ignorant people and racists alike, at the end of the day, you’re all just scared.
Goodbye.
Roland_91_@reddit
Actually I am a political scientist.
Specifically I am an offensive realist - and see all states in a constant state of war, just not necessarily armed combat.
And the fact that you aren't willing to answer the question makes me think you have specific vested interests or your account is monitored.
Unable_Duck9588@reddit
👍🏻
Roland_91_@reddit
You don't want to say that you would prefer Hamas to have control of Israel because everyone knows that would be lunacy.
But you also don't want to say that Israel should have Gaza because that is a betrayal of your Muslim connections.
So you choose to just leave, and you call me ignorant. You don't even know what side you are on
ChipsTheKiwi@reddit
How the actual fuck are the people committing genocide and proclaiming it to be gods will not the death cult? This is literally the exact same line of argument Nazis used to justify the holocaust, that the Jews were an existential threat to Germany and even all western civilization.
Roland_91_@reddit
I've not heard the Jews claim that this is God's will.
The Nazis also never claimed anything about his will... So I donno what you are talking about
ChipsTheKiwi@reddit
Israel is not the Jews, that association is antisemitic.
Roland_91_@reddit
Hitler also proclaimed they were socialist. Fascists say whatever they need to say to do what they want to do
ChipsTheKiwi@reddit
Just as Israel proclaims their actions to be inherently Jewish no matter how much their actions directly contradict the Talmud. The cognitive dissonance on display is truly staggering.
Roland_91_@reddit
I don't think I've seen anyone justifying their actions via the Talmud.
They say 'for the good of the Jewish nation' etc. not 'our actions are Jewish'
ChipsTheKiwi@reddit
Literally what the actual fuck is the difference? They are still invoking their religion to justify actual fucking genocide. You are literally no better than an actual fucking Nazi if you think that's acceptable in any capacity.
Roland_91_@reddit
lol, it's antisemitic to refer to the Jewish state as the Jews.
Fuck off.
redelastic@reddit
That's untrue and total nonsense.
Winter_Result_8734@reddit
Man that’s why I like the Irish, just like the people from Spain. Always on the good side
3-is-MELd@reddit
Is that like how you are saying it's okay to take hostages (including sub 1 year olds) but it's not okay to hit military targets that are being shielded by civilians? Why is one okay but the other is not?
More_Net4011@reddit
I remember we were debating about collective punishment at the beginning of all this, but now mid genocide lesser war crimes aren't even they lie about or try to hide anymore?? I guess if Daddy is going to sanction the ICJ and ICC to get them out of any consequences than everything is fair game?
Shower thought ive been having is why isnt Israel offering to send the US eggs? They begging Lithuania now. You would think all them billions would buy you some eggs though
__-C-__@reddit
After the first hospital bombing we went through an entire disinformation campaign where Isreal did their living best to falsify Hamas operations from inside the hospital and pretend they would never ever bomb a hospital, and it was actually a Hamas rocket that failed that blew it up, and when it was concretely disproven and they faced no consequences, they immediately then destroyed every single other hospital in Gaza
860v2@reddit
You just made all this up.
AlauddinGhilzai@reddit
Do you understand how rocket physics work
860v2@reddit
Yes.
AlauddinGhilzai@reddit
Then after seeing Forensic Architecture's along with Maher Arar's analysis of Al Ahli, it's clear a PIJ rocket didn't hit the hospital.
An Israeli CCTV camera from the Gaza envelope shows the launching of 17 PIJ rockets, and all of these rockets had consistent burn rates, so it's impossible for one of those rockets to randomly deviate and strike the hospital after the rocket engine is already exhausted
860v2@reddit
I never said it was a PIJ rocket. I just referenced something that said the rocket originated in Gaza.
You’re wrong.
AlauddinGhilzai@reddit
Those 17 PIJ rockets were the only rockets that were fired around the time of the Hospital explosion
860v2@reddit
False.
https://www.reddit.com/r/anime_titties/s/qXYQUFhnjz
AlauddinGhilzai@reddit
what does ur link lead to?
860v2@reddit
The comment I posted above.
AlauddinGhilzai@reddit
A rocket can not change it's direction severely in the air after the rocket motor has been expended, same way a tennis ball you throw with your hand can't change direction significantly once it's already left your hand
tkyjonathan@reddit
That link you used still thinks Israel caused the al-Ahli Hospital bombing
__-C-__@reddit
Because they did ?
tkyjonathan@reddit
Lol.. sweet summer child. The PIJ misfired rocket hit the parking lot outside the hospital and made a 5 inch hole in the ground.
AlauddinGhilzai@reddit
Do you understand how rocket physics work
Theodosian_Walls@reddit
Right... So the Palestinians didn't blow up their own hospital. The israelis did.
321bosco@reddit
If Israel would kill everyone in Gaza including the hostages, how could anyone possibly believe they won't kill everyone in Gaza after the hostages are released?
saranowitz@reddit
One way to find out. They can release the hostages and hope that israel backs down. Or they can not release the hostages and Israel DEFINITELY won’t back down.
Pretty simple calculus really.
Also, they should really just fucking release the hostages already. And if the world really cared about dead Gaza civilians as much as they pretend to, they would be encouraging the same.
NovaKaizr@reddit
Hamas offered to release all hostages on october 9th 2023. Their main demand at the time was to not invade.
Hamas is still offering to release all hostages. Their main demand is to withdraw from Gaza.
Israel's counteroffer to that is "release the hostages, dismantle the government and then we will allow you to be ethnically cleansed"
860v2@reddit
That would have allowed Hamas to stay in power. That’s a non-starter.
NovaKaizr@reddit
Removing Hamas from power with military might is never happening, Israel has been trying for 20 years, and Hamas have said the only way they will step down is if there is a viable, independent, Palestinian state
860v2@reddit
We did it with Nazi Germany, we can do it with Hamas.
Israel has not been trying for 20 years. What Israel has accomplished in just the past two years proves this.
NovaKaizr@reddit
What has Israel accomplished in the last year? Sure the death toll is huge, but even the IDF admit Hamas has at least replenished their numbers if not increased them
860v2@reddit
Look at the state of their leadership.
There is no replacement for experience.
NovaKaizr@reddit
You mean like the experience they are getting right now? Leaders can, have and will continue to be replaced. As long as the motivation to resist is there, there will always be someone who steps up. They will never stop. As long as they are alive and oppressed there will always be resistance. Your only options are genocide or compromise. The Israeli government knows that, and their choice is obvious
860v2@reddit
Getting bombed isn’t experience.
Their top leadership are all dead. Their replacements have been killed, too. The “resistance” is objectively weaker now than it was 2 years ago.
NovaKaizr@reddit
You are right. It isn't a real threat. In fact it has never been a real threat. The only reason october 7th was even possible was because of a major fuckup on Israel's part. They not only ignored intelligence of an imminent attack, they moved troops away from Gaza to protect and expand illegal settlements in the west bank. That is why it was much more successful than even Hamas predicted. They expected most of their fighters to die just breaking through the wall.
But Hamas doesn't exist to be an existential threat to Israel. The point of Hamas, and their rocket attacks, which they know will do minimal damage, is to say "we are still here and we refuse to roll over and die". Do you honestly think Hamas launches their 59th rocket attack thinking "this time it will definitely work for sure. Just one more attack and the zionist state will collapse".
Hamas is never going to "win" a conventional war, but they don't have to. They just have to provoke Israel into doing something so horrible they can never recover from, which I think they already have. The US is the only ally Israel has left, and even there sympathy for Isaelis is dropping and sympathy for Palestinians rising. If Israel had been sensible the fighting would have been over a long time ago and they would have walked away looking superior to their barbaric enemies. Instead they have not only gone down to the same level, they have gone lower. And the worst part is now Netanyahu can't end it, even if he wanted to, he can only dig the hole deeper. The far right like Ben-Gvir and Smotrich are thirsty for blood and will not stop until every Palestinian is dead, and Netanyahu needs them and the war to stay in power and out of jail. His court hearing was literally cancelled because of the ceasefire he broke. How much more blatant can you be.
If you are Israeli the only hope you have of keeping your country from collapse is to get out there and protest Netanyahu and the war. Your only hope is to get rid of him and his cabinet, and label this war as a black stain on the nation's history caused by a single madman clinging to power, instead of the collective societal bloodthirst it really was.
860v2@reddit
October 7th says otherwise. Not to mention the: mass shootings, mass stabbings, car ram attacks, suicide bombings, rocket attacks, etc.
You really need to stop typing nonsense and go read Hamas’ charters. They’re explicitly clear in their goals.
NovaKaizr@reddit
I can only hope you get out of this sinking ship before you go down with it. Without a significant change in course Israel is doomed, collapsing under its own self isolation and extremism. Same as apartheid south africa
860v2@reddit
Sounds like cope.
Also, highly ironic considering the current state of Gaza and the West Bank.
NovaKaizr@reddit
The ability to create ruins and dominate the weak does not make for a stable state.
But go ahead and keep living in your bubble, it will pop sooner or later
860v2@reddit
Which has been more stable since 1948: Israel or Gaza?
Simple question.
NovaKaizr@reddit
Which one has been funded, armed and backed up politically by the most powerful nation on the planet, and which one has been under occupation and blockade for, well, pretty much all of that time
860v2@reddit
Israel was established while under a UN embargo. They had to smuggle weapons in from Czechoslovakia. It was not funded, armed, backed up then. Bad take.
Also, notice how you didn't answer my question.
NovaKaizr@reddit
The israeli military was created out of militia groups directly funded by the british. However, you specifically mentioned since 1948 to today, and Israel has been supported by the US for most of that period.
As for which is more stable, obviously Israel. They aren't the ones who have been under occupation and blockade for over 70 years. However that doesn't exactly mean it is stable, it does keep getting attacks and uprisings from the people it is oppressing
860v2@reddit
False, those groups were attacking the British. If Israel needed US/UN assistance to survive, then it would have never been established.
If Israel is more stable then the comment you posted below is wrong.
https://www.reddit.com/r/anime_titties/s/N3xX3kZ689
NovaKaizr@reddit
No, Israel being more stable than Gaza does not disprove anything I said.
Would you feel better about the collapse of Israel if Gaza collapses first? Will that make it worth it? It is fine as long as you can take them down with you?
860v2@reddit
Yes, it does. You claimed Israel was not stable.
I don’t care about whether Gaza collapses or not.
NovaKaizr@reddit
"Was not stable"? I am not talking about the past, I am talking about right now.
Do you know what happened to apartheid south africa? They faced escalating resistance from the groups they were oppressing and decided to crack down hard with force. That lost they all their international allies who eventually started applying sanctions, under which the apartheid regime collapsed.
That is happening right now with Israel. The US is the only ally you have left, and that ally is actively sabotaging your relationships with everyone else, not to mention even in that country opinions are turning against Israelis. Seriously just look at the results of UN general assembly votes. Most of the world votes against you, but hey, at least you got Nauru, Micronesia, Tonga and Fiji on your side so I guess you are safe.
860v2@reddit
You said, and I quote: “does not make for a stable state”.
You people have been saying this for 80 years. Nice cope, but no.
NovaKaizr@reddit
There is always a point of no return. Like tens of thousands of dead, hundreds of thousands of injured, millions traumatized and billions of dollars of destruction. All with glee. There are videos of IDF soldiers destroying medical equipment while laughing and settlers destroying humanitarian supplies while the IDF watch.
860v2@reddit
Have fun continuing to lose.
NovaKaizr@reddit
Ok will do
HockeyHocki@reddit
Except they haven't tried, Hamas have previously been allowed to exist, it was a deliberate strategy. that has now changed
NovaKaizr@reddit
"Been allowed to exist" implies it is within their power to eradicate them. Even if Israel successfully kill every single Hamas members, there will be more, but a different name or the same one. Palestinian militants believe they are fighting for the freedom of their people. You can't bomb that out of them. It didn't work in Vietnam and it won't work now
HockeyHocki@reddit
Japan believed they could win a world war, two bombs changed that
And Israel don't need to bomb hamas until they are gone, only until they are irrelevant, which is not far off now
NovaKaizr@reddit
Japan surrendered because they had the option to do so and remain a free, independent nation. Israeli officials have openly said there will NEVER be a Palestinian state.
Hamas and Palestinian resistance in general may surrender, but ONLY if a viable option is presented as an alternative. Israel has not done that, and has no plans of doing that. In fact they applaud Trumps plan of complete ethnic cleansing, which, for the Palestinians, and Hamas in particular, is a non starter
HockeyHocki@reddit
Viable alternatives? were you born yesterday? Hamas founding charter calls for the destruction of Israel, there are no 'viable alternatives'
Palestinians were given Gaza and Hamas doubled down on the terrorism ffs
If Hamas and their ilk refuse to recognise Israels right to exist Israel will keep the boot on their neck forever. As the saying goes, peace will be possible only when the Palestinians learn to love their children more than they hate Israel
Iamover18ustupidshit@reddit
Yeah that's stupid saying which is inherently racist.
The Israelis just want peace, but these monstrous backwards Arabs hate them soooo much that they're willing to sacrifice all their children, just because they argh just hate them arghhh.
Shut up.
NovaKaizr@reddit
The Hamas charter was written after Gaza and the west bank had been under 20 years of "temporary" Israeli occupation.
They also wrote a new one in 2017
BehemothDeTerre@reddit
Hamas' demand is to repeat October the 7th until Isrealis are exterminated:
- Ghazi Hamad
arab-xenon@reddit
Didn’t israhell fund Hamas and call them a strategic friend in ensuring no two state solution? Bibi is a master strategist huh.
860v2@reddit
No.
arab-xenon@reddit
https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/amp/
860v2@reddit
Can you quote where it says they funded Hamas?
arab-xenon@reddit
You obviously don’t read very much.
Israel has allowed suitcases holding millions in Qatari cash to enter Gaza through its crossings since 2018, in order to maintain its fragile ceasefire with the Hamas rulers of the Strip. Most of the time, Israeli policy was to treat the Palestinian Authority as a burden and Hamas as an asset.
He later said “those who oppose a Palestinian state should support the transfer of funds to Gaza, because maintaining the separation between the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza would prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state.”
You’re going to play a semantics game now about allowing finding vs funding directly as if his intentions weren’t to prop up Hamas, something he now claims to be against despite supporting with fervor over the years.
860v2@reddit
Allowing money to move through =/= “fund”.
It’s not semantics. You’re just objectively wrong.
arab-xenon@reddit
Reddit talking points?
World news is frothing at the mouth posting daily hasbara, and you can’t come up with something better than Reddit talking points as an excuse to defend your dear leader? 🤣
860v2@reddit
Yes. It’s obvious that you didn’t read the article.
arab-xenon@reddit
I can’t argue the morality of the facts so I’m going to argue about your reading comprehension.
Most insightful ethnic cleansing enjoyer
860v2@reddit
You can’t argue either. You’re wrong on both ends.
Now here come the copy/pasted attacks. 😂
TheGreatJingle@reddit
They say they may release all the hostages if you do a bunch of things including not invade. Saying it’s just the main demand is dishonest. Hamas has other lines in the sand.
Winter_Result_8734@reddit
That’s exactly what I’m saying.
They can’t just carpet bomb the entire Gaza Strip and then want the hostages back. Imagin bombing the house in which a hostage is and then getting mad at hamas for reporting that it is dead.
Also let’s be real here. The current events should have made it more than clear that this is lot about the hostages. They want the land very obviously
justastuma@reddit
I doubt Hamas are actually able to return all the remaining hostages. Most of them are already dead and Hamas themselves might not have the bodies or be able to salvage them from the rubble. They already had trouble returning the body of Shiri Bibas.
Anyway, Israel knows that this demand will be at least very hard to fulfill and I suspect that that’s precisely the point. If Hamas don’t fulfill it, it will serve as a pretense for continuing to make Gaza as uninhabitable as possible.
860v2@reddit
Sounds like Hamas should have never taken hostages.
justastuma@reddit
I agree that they shouldn’t have. But it’s not just Hamas who are now suffering from the disproportionate response, it’s everyone in Gaza. The whole population, including children, is being collectively punished for the crimes of a few.
860v2@reddit
Thats directly on Hamas, and indirectly on Palestinians for voting for Hamas.
Iamover18ustupidshit@reddit
By that logic I guess all the people that Hamas killed on Oct 7th is directly on Israel since they elected Bibi + Likud who are expanding the settlements.
I mean it's absurd, but by your logic that's the only possibility.
860v2@reddit
No, because Netanyahu wasn’t elected while promising to annihilate Gaza and kill all Palestinians.
Palestinians voted for Hamas to do exactly what they did on October 7th.
Iamover18ustupidshit@reddit
He courted the far right lunatics and is giving them exactly what he promised.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/netanyahu-vows-keep-status-quo-amid-rise-religious-parties-2022-12-13/
One bill submitted for preliminary parliamentary review could potentially grant Defence Ministry powers to far-right politician Bezalel Smotrich to encourage Jewish settlement of the occupied West Bank, where Palestinians seek statehood. - CHECK
Other bills would consolidate cabinet authority over police for fellow ultranationalist Itamar Ben-Gvir, and enable ultra-Orthodox Jewish politician Arieh Deri to serve as finance minister, opens new tab despite his having been convicted of tax fraud. - CHECK
"We were elected to lead in our way, the way of the nationalist-right and the way of the liberal-right, and so shall we do," he told the Knesset, to heckling from centre-left lawmakers. - CHECK
860v2@reddit
Can you show me where he was elected promising he’d destroy Gaza and kill all Palestinians?
Iamover18ustupidshit@reddit
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvqCWvi-nFo
Here he is talking about destroying the peace process and deceiving the US because the US will listen to anything Israel says.
https://archive.ph/YkBQS
Here he is using a fake family not having anything to do with the families of hostages, telling people to suck it up and support him
https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
Here he is propping up and supporting and paying Hamas
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/jan/20/netanyahu-defies-biden-insisting-theres-no-space-for-palestinian-state
Here he is saying there will never be a Palestinian state
https://www.axios.com/2021/12/13/trump-middle-east-peace-netanyahu
Here is Trump confirming Netanyahu has never wanted peace
860v2@reddit
None of that shows what I asked for. You’re not posting the evidence because it doesn’t exist.
Iamover18ustupidshit@reddit
I knew I was wasting my time with you but thought I'd engage either way.
Yeah, we're done here.
justastuma@reddit
Everything Hamas does is on Hamas, everything Israel does is on Israel. Everybody is responsible for their own actions, not for those of others.
And you mean they voted for them in 2006 when the majority of the current population of Gaza wasn’t even born yet, right?
860v2@reddit
False. Hamas never hid their goals/motivations (destroy Israel, kill Jewish people, etc.). Palestinians still decided to elect them.
Then blame their parents. Someone has to be responsible for that decision, you can’t blame “the Jews” for everything.
suitorarmorfan@reddit
You’re transparently justifying ethnic cleansing and genocide, as are most Israelis. Don’t complain when the entire world wants nothing to do with you.
860v2@reddit
Yeah, maybe only inside your own head. I’m just stating the reality on the ground.
No one forced Palestinians to elect Hamas. Elections have consequences.
FlyingVolvo@reddit
Do you even know when you would have had to be born to have voted in the latest Gaza election? Go figure that out and report back instead of repeating talking points trying to rationalize the wholesale slaughter of innocent people.
860v2@reddit
Thats not relevant. The reality: Palestinians voted for Hamas.
You can’t elect a terrorist organization, support their terrorism, then cry about not being responsible for it. That’s not how that works.
FlyingVolvo@reddit
So when would you have had to been born to vote in the latest Gaza election?
860v2@reddit
It’s not relevant. I don’t care if it’s 1980 or 2020.
FlyingVolvo@reddit
Of course you don't. Why let facts get in the way of your ideologically preferred kind of hate?
860v2@reddit
It’s not relevant. They still voted for a terrorist group to represent them. No one forced them to do that.
FlyingVolvo@reddit
Are you responsible for the Deir Yassin massacre using the same logic purely because you're Israeli?
I don't think you realize the implications of what you're saying if people who weren't even born are responsible for actions taken before they were even born. It's the kind of logic used to commit terrible massacres in the past for perceived transgressions by people way back in time.
Iamover18ustupidshit@reddit
The poster does realize - you just have to accept what they're telling you about themselves openly instead of giving them the benefit of the doubt.
They're okay with anything that's happening to people in Gaza - they'll blame Moses if they have to, but nothing is Israel's fault.
860v2@reddit
The paramilitary groups that did that were not voted in, so it’d be impossible for me to be responsible. You can’t even work your way through simple logic.
Hamas was elected, by Palestinians, while openly stating their goal of annihilating Israel and killing Jewish people. No one forced Palestinians to vote for and support that.
FlyingVolvo@reddit
What about the Arab al-Mawasi massacre then? That was perpetuated by the formal IDF forces, which is the armed forces of your country? Explain why you aren't responsible for that using your own logic?
860v2@reddit
This one?
FlyingVolvo@reddit
Are you denying the massacre happened?
ProbablyNotTacitus@reddit
What about the 9 year olds and 10 year olds who will do should they have been born elsewhere? Dude get real here
this_dudeagain@reddit
Just send all the children to Iran since they financed and helped plan the Oct 7. Surely that money would be better spent there.
mschuster91@reddit
If Hamas wants to have a small sliver of a chance to survive, the only choice is to actually be fucking honest. Grant the Red Cross access to each and every person and corpse they have in their own custody at the very least.
Ala117@reddit
Tell that to israel, not hamas.
waiver@reddit
It's a dumb proposal, it's quite clear that they will bomb whether the hostages are returned or not, that's why they refused to start phase 2 and just wanted to extend phase 1 instead
Winter_Result_8734@reddit
Bingo the Germans guy gets it
Sehr gut Respekt. Nicht viele von uns sind so ehrlich :)
saranowitz@reddit
One way to find out. They can release the hostages and hope that israel backs down. Or they can not release the hostages and Israel DEFINITELY won’t back down.
Pretty simple calculus really.
Also, they should really just fucking release the hostages already. And if the world really cared about dead Gaza civilians as much as they pretend to, they would be encouraging the same.
Winter_Result_8734@reddit
Listen here I ain’t a monster like the Zionist and I genuinely want the hostages back. But do you have any idea what would happen if they let them go ?
There would be exactly nothing stopping israhell and the IOF to just straight up annihilate Gaza.
I have a extremely extremely crazy idea. How about you send in some special forces trained for hostage evacuation to minimize causalities instead of grounding Gaza which is full of children ?
But this way the Zionists couldn’t occupy Gaza and ethnically cleanse the land
this_dudeagain@reddit
They've tried that already with minimal success.
ozneoknarf@reddit
Nothing is stopping the Israelis now so I don’t really get your point. And sending in troops into a highly urbanised area is just asking to have casualties on your side which just makes the rescue missions stop. Modern warfare requires areal bombing or artillery barrages first. That’s how it works in Ukraine too, the front lines are basically Swiss cheese, but Ukraine has successful retreated their civilian population away from the front lines and don’t hide Ukrainian commanders in refugee camps.
The best option for Hamas would be to completely surrender, not just hand over the hostages but also step down from government and hand the strip over to an international interregnum government. If you had say Saudi and Egyptian troops in charge it would be harder for Israel to justify an invasion.
Winter_Result_8734@reddit
I didn’t say send in troops I said send in special forces. Small group high risk high reward. Thats surely better for getting the hostages out than bombing everything there.
Also yes something is stopping Israel and that are the hostages. Thats only reason why the Gazans haven’t been completely annihilated yet. They have to keep the facade of running this operation to get the hostages out or they would loose even more of their populations support and international support. Even more than already
ozneoknarf@reddit
You think special forces are just some invincible group that can deeply penetrate Gaza no problem. They Israelis already use special forces when they can. But this isn’t some situation where you can just arrive blasting in the middle of the night miles away from the frontline, locate the hostages deep in tunnels, kills all the enemies on their home turf, rescue the hostages, then somehow retreat with them back behind your lines. It gets incredibly messy. One time Hamas just ended up shooting the hostages and the other time the Israelis ended up shooting the hostages themselves by mistake. Also most troop lost Israel had this war was on their attempts to rescue hostages.
There was proposals since the start of the war for a UN government to take over in Gaza. Hamas isn’t saving Palestinians, they are the reason Palestinians are dying right now. Israel use the fact they Hamas is in power to justify their invasion. They use the fact that Hamas has a single operative in a residential building to bring the whole building down. I don’t know how you could possibly claim in any single way that Hamas is the only thing keeping Palestinian alive, when it pretty much the exact opposite.
saranowitz@reddit
Hey now stop it with your common sense. This commenter wanted emotion and name-calling.
actsqueeze@reddit
Here’s an idea, Israel could stop committing apartheid and decades straight of land theft?
saranowitz@reddit
So I guess keep the hostages and see if things get better in that department. Good choice. I’m sure this will bring so much freedom for the Palestinian people and make their situation with Israel less complicated. It sure does sound like a great plan and you are very smart for endorsing it. 👍
actsqueeze@reddit
So you acknowledge that Israel is committing apartheid and has been stealing land for decades?
saranowitz@reddit
No. I acknowledge that the situation is complicated and one side acting like a bunch of Viking raiders from the Middle Ages is not going to make their own situation better.
Less_Car5915@reddit
It’s only complicated for people that refuse to acknowledge the reality of the situation. The complication arises from the cognitive dissonance of defending a genocidal state as if it the victim of the very people it has been victimizing since its inception. Once you dissolve yourself of the need to defend Israel at all costs and view the situation for what it is, there isn’t much to be confused about in terms of who is doing the oppressing and who is being oppressed. Even potential solutions to the problem become much clearer once you abandon this notion of Israeli exceptionalism that renders them impervious from facing the repercussions of their actions.
Federal_Thanks7596@reddit
Here's a better idea. Force Israel to pick a solution and implement it. They refuse? Apply similar sanctions to Russia and completely block off Israel from the West until they agree. Treat them like someone who breaks the international law should be treated.
Ok_Magician_6870@reddit
I wouldn’t be bashing anyones intelligence if I didn’t know the difference between “calculate” and “calculus”, personally
ScaryShadowx@reddit
They wont back down. How do we know? Because look at the West Bank.
Ok_Magician_6870@reddit
*calculation
saranowitz@reddit
Try again
https://www.reddit.com/r/grammar/s/MQLE2YN0KF
this_dudeagain@reddit
It's basically divide and conquer at this point. Hamas started it but I imagine they didn't think It would get this bad.
adam__nicholas@reddit
Is it really about the land itself—300 square kilometres of nothing but corpse-filled ruins and destroyed infrastructure that will cost billions for the cleanup alone—or is it about the violent attempt to prevent Gaza from ever posing a threat to them again, with the consideration of security first and human rights and international law never?
Gaza, Rafah, Khan Yunis and the rest don’t hold much religious or historical significance in Judaism the same way the occupied cities in the West Bank do, leading me to believe Israel is fine with just destroying them instead of settling them. I could be wrong, but there’s plenty of land in the WB that Zionist colonists would want to settle before they start moving into the Gaza Strip.
soyyoo@reddit
Religión is based on culture and culture is made up
Daryno90@reddit
Yeah it is, they will just bury the corpses in mass graves like they have been doing and bring the bull dozer in. Where did you think Trump got the “riveria of the Middle East” bullshit from?
And I’m just going to say if Israel is going to kill 100s of thousand of people to sent a warning, it shows that they are every bit as barbaric and savage as the group that they accuse of being that if not more so
Winter_Result_8734@reddit
Ok mister smart brain
Israel is a colonizer state that’s what they do. They want the land all for themselves but this is obviously not enough proof.
Did you know that infront of Gazas shores there is actually a big amount of gas which the Palestinians own because Gaza is their land ?
Did you know that in Gaza there is a holy side for the Jews where a ritual is to be held one day to summon their „messiah“
Did you know that there could be plans to get around the Suez Canal by making a artificial canal through Israel ?
Problem is that this canal would have to go trough Gaza.
Here you go
adam__nicholas@reddit
Calm down, first of all. You don’t have to jump straight to hostility.
Yes. Technically, this is an argument over territorial waters, not land—and I’m going to go out on a limb and guess you would say that all of the land that makes up Israel, and it’s natural resources, belongs to Palestinians, which is a perspective you’re entitled to. But if that’s what you think, you’re just helping to blur the philosophical, moral and legal line between where “Israel” ends and “Palestine” begins.
I did not. I’ll look into it.
This is more of a conspiracy theory and speculation than an actual plan—at best, it’s Trump-style shit talking from far-right Israeli politicians. And no, there’s nothing about this hypothetical canal (which would have to be dug through mountains and rugged terrain any way you build it) that says it would have to go through Gaza—it could just as well be cut through the desert on the Israeli side of the border, and it would need to run through “mainland Israel” anyway to link the seas together.
Winter_Result_8734@reddit
Honestly good for calling me out on my hostility. I’m sorry for insulting you I hope you can forgive me.
My head is not in the right place currently and I’m getting more and more hearted and writing more and more stuff that is ( imo ) true but not brought to you as a logical point because there is just too much emotion.
I will stop answering to cool down now.
But honestly good for you for calling my temper out and for making logical and collected responses
Again sorry for calling you a smart brain or whatever I said
adam__nicholas@reddit
All’s good brother, it’s an emotionally-charged topic, and a frustrating one. I get why it makes people go from 0-60. And thank you for showing a rare demonstration of humility on the internet, in a comments section—that almost never happens, and speaks well to your character ✌️
Winter_Result_8734@reddit
Nah man thinking about it I don’t even know why I engaged in this comment section anyways. It never changes anything. And I normally don’t engage because of that reason.
Yeah usually I am not this heated and just show kindness 😅.
Thx for being cool about it and also we need to stick together as humans. Plus I actually really like the Canadians so take care. :)
Agitated-Quit-6148@reddit
Nothing you just said is true.
And Palestinians have lost.
AlexRyang@reddit
That is why Hamas refused to enter Stage 2. Israel stated that they had to turn over the prisoners and Israel was allowed to continue indiscriminate bombings in Gaza Strip.
Shiroi_Kage@reddit
This is categorically false. Hamas said multiple times it was ready to start phase 2 negotiations as agreed upon in January. Israel wanted nothing more than an extension of phase 1, which was not part of the agreement, in exchange for releasing more captives all while never committing to ending the war. Israel reneged on the deal then decided to just resume fighting.
saranowitz@reddit
Ah yes. Hamas, the good faith actor in negotiations over the civilian hostages and bodies they kidnapped.
Shiroi_Kage@reddit
Is Israel a good faith actor? They literally raped prisoners to death on video then broke out the rapists and defended the in parliament and one of them is a famous TV personality now.
saranowitz@reddit
Israelis are rightly pissed that the hostages are not being returned. If someone took my family members hostage, who knows what I would be capable of if I caught some of the people responsible and they weren’t telling me where they were?
I’m not defending sexual violence and think all violence is abhorrent, but being real here for a minute: I won’t lose much sleep if kidnappers of little kids were tortured into revealing information about there whereabouts. What goes around comes around.
Shiroi_Kage@reddit
To start with, those were people who weren't kidnappers. At least there was no evidence presented for them to being kidnappers nor a trial. Second, torture doesn't work. Third, it didn't work. Israel only got back hostages by negotiations and all the baby murder didn't release any hostages and instead the random bombing killed them. Fourth, and most importantly, Israel has been raping Palestinians since its inception. It goes as far back as Deir Yassin and Tantura when it comes to rounding up random women in Palestinian villages and raping them. What are you talking about?
saranowitz@reddit
I too can read propaganda forums about an area I never set foot in and parrot it back like I know what the fuck I’m talking about.
But I don’t do that. Return the hostages if you really want to avoid conflict in the region. If you still refuse I guess you prefer dead babies and that makes you sick. There is nothing more to say.
Unable_Duck9588@reddit
Kinda crazy hoe s terorrist organization is behaving more like the actual most moral army in the world.
Makes ya think doesn’t it?
saranowitz@reddit
Makes me think you’re gullible in slurping up propaganda, yes
vl0x@reddit
Lmao honestly tho. This person is legit saying “hamas” and “says” in the same sentence as if that holds any sort of merit. This world is going to shit if we’re believing a terrorist org is spitting facts after publicly dragging dead Jews on the streets on camera.
Aaron_Hamm@reddit
Hamas wanted to enter stage 2. Israel said "release more hostages for another 30 day ceasefire", which isn't stage 2
meister2983@reddit
So instead, Israel continues to bomb the Gaza Strip.
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
What reason would they have to continue the war once the hostages are released?
cap123abc@reddit (OP)
Control of Gaza and the complete expulsion of 2 million Palestinians. This has been openly proposed and supported by both Trump and Netanyahu.
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
You really think Israel as a whole would support that, especially given the cost in lives it would take? More soldiers would die than previously in the war, and no longer would the reason be to save hostages or protect Israel. I can’t see there being enough will within or without Israel for that to ever actually happen.
cap123abc@reddit (OP)
Unfortunately, yes I think the idea has broad support among Israelis.
https://m.jpost.com/israel-news/article-841693
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
I’d like to see a poll taken after the hostages are returned. One has to assume that most of the responses are going to be fueled by the want for retribution. Like how support for Hamas and armed resistance increases among Palestinians.
cap123abc@reddit (OP)
I can’t see into the future. You asked about the sentiment among Israelis about the proposed ethnic cleansing and I provided a poll on their sentiment.
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
Once again, I’d imagine that’s fueled from a want for revenge. Can’t really blame them there.
cap123abc@reddit (OP)
Ok you support ethnic cleansing. Simple. Why try to obfuscate?
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
Your oversimplification and assumption based on nothing is wildly disappointing. I was hoping you were better than that.
cap123abc@reddit (OP)
A poll was provided. You said “can’t really blame them”. I can only rely on what you type and the information that is reported on. The facts imply broad support among Israelis to ethnically cleansed the people in Gaza and you agree. This isn’t complicated.
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
You didn’t understand my statement at all of you think it endorses ethnic cleansing.
Countless polls show support among Palestinians for Hamas. Hamas is a terrorist organization. Would you say that that support for Hamas makes the Palestinian people in general supportive of terrorism, such as suicide bombings, kidnappings, mass shootings, etc.?
cap123abc@reddit (OP)
The reason your average Gaza will express support for Hamas is simple. They are the only group that provides the means to fight back. If your family was buried under the rubble or had to watch your little sister starve you would be just as susceptible to joining any extremists group. They are human beings who think and feel just like you.
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
The reason why the average Israeli supports removing Gazans is simple. Hamas attacked from Gaza and is full of Palestinians. They are the ones responsible for attacking and killing their kinsmen. Remove the Gazans, no more terrorist attacks. Since it doesn’t seem like Gazans will ever seek peace, such as giving back the hostages voluntarily, it’s best to remove the threat entirely.
cap123abc@reddit (OP)
So we agree then. I find it strange you equate the Israeli state to a bunch of extremists but here we are. In the end only one side will commit ethnic cleansing. And it will be Israel with the backing of the United States. Disciple. What a stain on their history. But you will continue to obfuscate. Sad
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
I’m ok with calling most Israelis “extremists” if you admit that Palestinians as a whole support terrorism. Note, not freedom fighting or resistance, since that’s not what Hamas does, but actual terrorism. And make no mistake, Hamas and the Palestinians absolutely would commit ethnic cleansing if they were able. This is obvious in numerous Hamas speeches and Palestinian chants and actions.
How on earth do you gather that Hamas could be destroyed with a single bomb? Explain this reasoning. I’ve never heard that one before.
cap123abc@reddit (OP)
I attempted to type “without” a single bomb. I believe if Israel removed all reasons for extremist Palestinians to exist (like constant bombardment and denying their sovereignty) then a group like Hamas would struggle to recruit as many as they do. Unless you think they all are born with an antisemitism gene then what I’m saying is understandable.
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
Hamas has stated they’re goal is to destroy Israel. Not protect Gaza or the WB or Palestinians in general, but destroy Israel. There is no reason at all to think that if Israel stopped bombing Hamas and thus Palestinians, Hamas would just never attack again. Oct 7th was unprovoked, of course, and is a prime example. If Israel stops hitting Hamas and gets rid of all barriers between the Palestinian territories and Israel and inaugurates free travel, etc., Hamas will just use that to attack Israel more often and more aggressively. Israel can’t just not do anything when Hamas does that either. Make no mistake, Hamas absolutely benefits from the conflict. It absolutely benefits from dead Palestinians. That’s why it never wants peace and tries to get Israel to kill as many civilians as possible. That’s also why they never take any steps to try and minimize civilian casualties in any conflict. Hamas will never want peace, and Israel has to fight against it. If that fight just fuels Hamas, there’s really nothing Israel can do to stop that.
cap123abc@reddit (OP)
You are ignoring decades of oppression against the Palestinians. You keep saying why Hamas is evil like I’m justifying their existence. I’m explaining WHY they exist. If for the last decade thousands of Palestinians grew up with basic needs and were not under constant threat of bombardment then I think Hamas would not have the means to act as they do. Iran can send weapons for years but Israel gives them a reason to fight by obliterating their entire family and burying all they know under rubble. Israel understands this. They know who has the resources and power and it isn’t Iran or Hamas. It is their US backers.
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
Why did that constant threat of bombardment exist? Because of Hamas. Israel gives Palestinians a reason to fight by simply existing. Once again, it’s evident in Hamas’ ideology and within many Palestinian chants. “From the river to the sea”, a very popular chant as I’m sure you know, is calling for the destruction of the whole of Israel.
Israel definitely has the power here, but what alternative does it have when it gets attacked by Hamas than to retaliate? That’s why the barriers exist, why control is kept so tight around Gaza and the WB. Because if it slackens, Hamas will exploit that weakness. Should Israel be willing to sacrifice thousands of civilians in order to maybe show that it has a right to exist to Palestinians?
cap123abc@reddit (OP)
You will never understand until you recognize WHY Hamas exists. You seem to think it’s ‘might makes right’ when it comes to ending this conflict. We have a fundamental disagreement on the ethics of ethnic cleansing and I guess that’s where we have to leave it.
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
The simple truth is that the Israelis have the power to destroy the Palestinians while the Palestinians don’t have the power to ever destroy the Israelis. If the Palestinians keep making this a struggle for survival, which they do when they keep supporting Hamas, the only way it’ll ever end is when one of the sides is destroyed or no longer a factor. Of course the Palestinians will never be able to destroy Israel, so every time they attack and whenever they support Hamas they’re just slowly killing themselves. The only way this entire conflict ends is when Palestinians actually give up violent resistance, reject Hamas, and show a willingness for actual peace.
EH1987@reddit
You literally just admitted that Palestinians aren't an existential threat to Israel, how are they then they then making this a struggle for survival?
They exist at the mercy of their oppressors and are somehow also the ones with the agency in the situation. You're treating Israeli aggression as little more than a natural phenomenon which can't be avoided.
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
What exactly is Israel supposed to do when Hamas attacks? It’s not really an existential threat to Israel, yet they can’t just do nothing whenever Hamas attacks and kills thousands of Israelis, or when Palestinians applaud and overwhelming support these actions. The only reason why Israel would ever let up on what they’re doing now is if Palestinians rejected violent resistance and Hamas. Otherwise, they have absolutely no reason to not continue.
EH1987@reddit
You just presented it as if the only options are do nothing or commit genocide.
Are you implying genocide is a reasonable response to applauding atrocities? In that case you've just argued in favor of genociding Israel.
Israel responds with violence to violent and non-violent resistance alike.
If you truly believe that I have a bridge to sell you.
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
Israel isn’t committing genocide. The two options are do something or do nothing. Except of course Israel can’t do nothing, so it has to do something every time it gets attacked. Or should Israel just turn the other cheek every time Palestinians and Hamas attempt to genocide them?
I’d say there’s a fundamental problem with Palestinian culture at this point. They love dying, they love terrorism, they glorify killing Israelis no matter the cost. There’s hardly any living with them at this point. So the only way to actually achieve peace is for Palestinians to reject violent resistance and reject Hamas. Otherwise they’re just going to keep killing themselves.
There’s been one example of nonviolent resistance like ever. If Palestinians actually gave it a concerted try, like what African Americans did in the US during the 60s, they’d see much more progress.
Israel has no reason to not keep responding as long as Palestinians embrace and glorify violence.
EH1987@reddit
At least you put your racism on display for everyone to see, but the fact that you feel comfortable in doing so is kind of unsettling in and of itself.
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
Never said that. Putting words into my mouth to get your gotcha moment says a lot more about you than me.
EH1987@reddit
You're spouting textbook racist and genocidal rhetoric, go fuck yourself.
cap123abc@reddit (OP)
They have been slowly becoming extinct for decades. That’s how we got here. They could have rolled over in 1948 but that’s not how the world works. Especially post WW2. The Palestinians will be relegated to the history books and we will have to teach our children about how we stood idle as they were ethnically cleansed in the same way many others were before them. Fucking tragic. I admire the Jewish people and I’m sad this may become a part of their legacy.
Jewish activists have been at the forefront of supporting Palestinian rights for decades. It’s mortifying what we are witnessing.
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
They have been slowly becoming extinct for decades because they’ve been violently resisting for decades. They didn’t roll over in 1948 because they thought they could win. They lost the land because they lost the war they started. Make no mistake that the Jews would have been kicked out of the land if they had lost the war. The Palestinians are killing themselves by violently resisting. It’s tragic, but there’s no need to feel bad for them because they’re choosing this.
Jewish activists absolutely have been at the forefront of supporting Palestinian rights and independence. And guess what? Many of the must prominent supporters were killed by Hamas on Oct 7th. Palestinians and Hamas don’t care about that support.
cap123abc@reddit (OP)
Look up Jewish Voice for Peace. Your ignorance is not completely your fault. Only 90 percent or so. Everyone can better themselves.
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
Look up Women Wage Peace. Their leader, Vivian Silver, described as one of the most prominent advocates for peace with the Palestinians, was killed on Oct 7th. Turns out Hamas and Palestinians don’t care if Jews want peace. They sure don’t.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67413993.amp
AmputatorBot@reddit
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saranowitz@reddit
Classic bad faith argument from a propaganda poster
saranowitz@reddit
Question is: did Israelis support this idea before October 7 2023? Or did Hamas actions radicalize the population against Palestinians?
meister2983@reddit
That's Trump's plan which is that the population transfer is America's problem. Not Israel's problem.
foxwagen@reddit
The same reason Israelis illegally settle (and expand in) the West Bank despite all of it was meant to be Palestinian 🤷
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
Once Palestinians give the hostages back there won’t be anymore desire to continue the war from the Israeli people. No will, no more war. Perhaps it would be wise for Hamas to take away the very reason Israel is invading Gaza in the first place.
sadderall-sea@reddit
you're lying. izzy military officials and citizens have said the opposite
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
Is it wiser to go down the path of assured destruction (not releasing the hostages) or potential peace (releasing the hostages)?
sadderall-sea@reddit
colonial powers break their promises 100% of the time. just ask the Diné how the treaties are doing
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
Israel isn’t a colonial power, so your point is moot.
sadderall-sea@reddit
it very much is, by every definition, so it's not :)
Ala117@reddit
Lie some more.
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
In order to keep lying I’d need to lie first. Since I haven’t lied yet, I can’t keep lying.
Aaron_Hamm@reddit
Then you're naive
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
Don’t type out your mirror thoughts. Those are only for you.
Aaron_Hamm@reddit
Says the guy who clearly isn't paying attention to Israeli politics...
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
Says the guy who clearly doesn’t know history.
Aaron_Hamm@reddit
Here's the thing, kid:
I'm basing my replies to you on evidence, you're flinging shit like a monkey in a cage at the zoo.
Bibi is literally fighting right now, as stated by him, to eliminate Hamas, not to rescue the hostages. It's a stated war aim, and the fighting is the only thing keeping his government together. Phase 2, which should've started 4 days ago, would have resulted in the return of the hostages, but Israel refused to enter that phase... Do you know why? Because it included a permanent ceasefire
You're not following along, you're just parroting what you've been told to believe.
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
What evidence?
A permanent ceasefire would mean that Israel has has to wait until Hamas attacks again. Why wait instead of continuing to attack?
Aaron_Hamm@reddit
Now we get down to some truth from you, finally. You agree with the war mongering.
At least now you're getting honest.
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
Why wait for someone to try and kill you (again)?
Aaron_Hamm@reddit
You're right, it's hard to find a way to live peacefully with someone whose land you've stolen
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
If the Palestinians didn’t want it “stolen”, they shouldn’t have declared war on the Israelis to try and kick them out of the whole of the land in the first place.
Aaron_Hamm@reddit
Anyways, you're clearly a fool, so blocking you now
Aaron_Hamm@reddit
LMAO what an embarrassing attempt at logic
Ala117@reddit
And lie some more you did.
meister2983@reddit
Per the UN and various international groups, not Israel. Israel agreed much of it was to be turned over as part of a negotiated solution; they've just given up on the negotiation.
Aaron_Hamm@reddit
Israel's courts have declared a bunch of the settlements illegal... The people and the military don't care
meister2983@reddit
Yes, that's bad enforcement of laws, a common issue on both sides of this conflict.
Within Area C, they generally are legal per Israel.
Aaron_Hamm@reddit
It's hard to dismiss UN rulings on legality when the state exists purely due to UN rulings
CastleElsinore@reddit
Except it's not a ruling, is a non binding advisory opinion
Aaron_Hamm@reddit
Congrats on pointing out that the US is Israel's lapdog
CastleElsinore@reddit
What does a UN report have to do with the US?
Aaron_Hamm@reddit
Is that a real question? The US blocks anything targeting Israel in the only UN body with any actual power, the security council, which is the only body that can issue binding resolutions...
vl0x@reddit
Sorry to break your bubble but the security council isn’t serious and hasn’t been for a very long time.
Aaron_Hamm@reddit
Sounds like you're not following along with the conversation, bud
vl0x@reddit
Okay so show me a serious moment the security council has had in the past decade.
Aaron_Hamm@reddit
Why? I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you, I'm pointing out your comment doesn't make sense within the context of the conversation.
vl0x@reddit
You said the security council has binding resolutions. No they don’t because it’s a complete charade because they’re a joke.
Aaron_Hamm@reddit
... Lol bro you aren't following along. Why did I bring up the security council?
saranowitz@reddit
They fucking left Gaza for 20 years until the stupid October 7th attack. What are you talking about?
Unable_Duck9588@reddit
No they didn’t… they even control the power and water that goes in as well as the airspace and entries.
Why do people like you keep repeating the same lie?
ForgetfullRelms@reddit
Like how people argue that if the occupation ends- Hamas would disappear?
foxwagen@reddit
Hamas's existence after the conflict is not part of my argument.
Personally I'm in favor of carpet nuking all of the Middle East to achieve permanent peace.
sadderall-sea@reddit
thank you for saying the quiet part out loud. I screenshot messages like these and send them yo people who are still on the fence about what your side thinks. thanks for the help!
Zipz@reddit
To destroy Hamas
Throwaway5432154322@reddit
"But if Hamas is destroyed, then how will we destroy the Yahood- I mean the Zionists?"
-most of this sub
Unable_Duck9588@reddit
That’s not what anyone says, but good on you for trying the antisemitism card again.
Shame that shit doesn’t work.
Winter_Result_8734@reddit
Man sorry but you are so naive. This was never about the hostages.
When you want to free a hostage from a building and make sure they don’t starve… do you carpet bomb the block that building is in ? Do you cut off water and food and electricity, making sure the hostage can’t properly be fed ?
Don’t be a fool. This was never about the hostages. Look at trumps plan. Heck they already started to sell land from Gaza to Israelis ( look it up )
This was never about the hostages it was only a image they needed to totally destroy Gaza and kill it’s people.
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
Do you think Hamas is actively promoting where the hostages are? If Hamas wanted to ensure that the hostages weren’t killed in bombings, they’d broadcast their locations to make sure Israel avoided hitting them.
Winter_Result_8734@reddit
Why would they do that ?
Why would you paint a big fat X on your only leverage ?
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
What leverage exactly do they have with the hostages?
PreviousCurrentThing@reddit
One of their stated objectives is to remove Hamas from power. Getting the hostages back would not have achieved that.
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
And yet the prieotity for most people is to just get the hostages back. Once they get the hostages back, support for the war plummets and the war ends.
tkyjonathan@reddit
Why is this sub filled with conspiracy theories about 'dajooz'?
860v2@reddit
That’s not what that means.
vl0x@reddit
I mean, sure. But Hamas doesn’t have much leverage right now.
Zellgun@reddit
But when Hamas threatens the destruction of Israel if they don’t end the illegal blockade of Gaza and the illegal occupation of the West Bank, they’re called terrorists.
I wonder why the double standards hmm
860v2@reddit
Thats not why Hamas is threatening the destruction of Israel.
Yoodi_Is_My_Favorite@reddit
It is.
You're the aggressor, so I'm less inclined to take your comments at good faith.
Zellgun@reddit
Sure buddy, you work for Hamas since you know them so well?
860v2@reddit
No, I just read both their charters.
Lower_Bookkeeper2160@reddit
They're not threatening Israel just because they're jewish lol. That talking point is outdated, so come up with a new one
XMabbX@reddit
The problem is that there is no if there, the sole existence of Hamas is the complete aniquilation of the Israel state. And it has been like that before any ocupation or blockade.
acegikm02@reddit
probably because hamas doesnt actually have the capabilities to carpet bomb israel off the map dumbass
lightmaker918@reddit
There's literally no upside to keeping the hostages, was all of Gaza destroyed worth it to get a few thousand terrorists back from Israeli prisons?
Israel should implement a death sentence for terrorists with blood on their hands to stop this madness of terrorists sacrificing their whole territory to get a bunch of prisoners with blood on their hands back.
randompersononearth9@reddit
What about the blood of countless innocent children and adults. How will israel wash a genocide off their hands? This isnt about hostages or hamas anymore and maybe it never has been.
This is pure hatred and bloodlust for another human being and i hope your god is proud of the evil it created.
Dont bother if you want to respond with deflection, bullshit facts or the classic antisemite/ hamas supporter card because that is all you have been trained to do.
Icy-Delay-444@reddit
Thanks for telling everyone you don't know what genocide is. Much appreciated.
Avoid any sharp objects or lit flames when Palestine loses the war it started. You might hurt someone in your raging meltdown.
randompersononearth9@reddit
Yeah yeah, same story as always. Shift blaim, deflect or do anything possible to not acknowledge innocent lives getting killed on this scale.
Even if that defies any logic or empathy for another human being. But i guess that is easy if you do not see the Palestinian as human but as an animal.
Funny how nazis thought the same for jewish people so they can slaughter them without remorse. And they got rightfully hated for it.
Icy-Delay-444@reddit
Seriously, thank you for admitting you have no idea what genocide is. I really do appreciate it.
Almost forgot. Avoid any alcohol when Palestine loses the war it started. You might hurt someone in your drunken meltdown.
lightmaker918@reddit
There was no war until Hamas started this. Israel was always ready for peace with Gaza, which could've led to peace with the WB and a Palestinian state.
NoMathematician9564@reddit
This didn’t start on 7 October. 7 October was just you being the victim instead of Palestinians, for once in decades. Crimea River
Icy-Delay-444@reddit
Avoid any sharp objects or lit flames when Palestine loses the war it started. You might hurt someone in your raging meltdown.
860v2@reddit
lightmaker918@reddit
Imagine being on Hamas' side
arab-xenon@reddit
How many children did Israel murder in 2023 before oct7th.
Let me guess, those 200+ were not a “war”, just the status quo for the genocidal ethnostate
lightmaker918@reddit
How many of those are under 12, and who weren't killed while trying to stab/shoot/throw molotov cocktails?
arab-xenon@reddit
EPSTINY fan spotted 🤣
Zipz@reddit
Lol looking through your comments is something else
People give evidence and you ignore it and call them names because you don’t have a point
You are something else. Accusing others of what you do
arab-xenon@reddit
0 sources, 0 link, as many justifications for killing children as possible 🤣
The IDF claiming 251 terror attacks; source, their ass.
If I threw a stone that’s a terrorist attack? Sounds like the new anonymous ADL list for antisemitism; just a fake numbers game.
Don’t worry buddy, the people in power support you, and they’re sig heiling while doing it
860v2@reddit
Considering Hamas and other Palestinian groups use child soldiers, this isn’t a very good angle.
randompersononearth9@reddit
Ah so you chose bullshit facts.
All of this started when european zionist basterds came there and started mass killing and deporting people.
Don't blame desperate people for defending themselves when you stripped them of everything including their brothers and sisters.
You are here defending a genocide because (in your words) they did something on oct 7th. Israel has done that a thousand times worse both before and after that day for 70 years.
You and your country are a shame to the people that died during ww2.
lightmaker918@reddit
You do know the Zionists agreed to the 1947 UN partition, and not a single Arab from deported from anywhere until the Arabs rejected the plan and started the war.
randompersononearth9@reddit
Ah so you chose deflection this time.
Why would anyone in their right mind accept giving away the land that their parents and grandparents were born and buried.
They invited jewish people because nobody in the world wanted them and told them to come back home. Their generosity was met by backstabbing land grabbers. Of course they would reject a plan that is set up for them to lose.
lightmaker918@reddit
The Arabs weren't asked by the British about who could come to the land, they certainly didn't invite anyone. The Arabs revolted in 1936-1939 in the Arab revolt and successfuly restricted Jewish immigration, that's why so many more Jews were killed during the Holocaust, they had no where to go.
You're spewing really low effort propaganda, it's not interesting to discuss tbh.
randompersononearth9@reddit
Maybe it is not interesting for you because you have not addressed the horrible genocide going on and keep deflecting to history or made up facts.
I know you have been trained to do so and I hope someone will pat you on the shoulder for it. You can skew the details, deflect, make up stats or keep blaiming hamas all you want.
At the end of the day the reality is that innocent people are dying, children and babies are dying and the ones left alive are in horrible conditions. No history, facts or hamas involvement will make that blood wash away and i hope everyone involved in this terrible act against humanity will suffer for it.
Keep excusing yourself for killing people, I hope your god is watching in shame because the dead jewish people from ww2 are definitely ashamed for what their survivors have become.
lightmaker918@reddit
I'm not reading all that rambling pal, you're propoganding online with bullshit Palestinians invited Jews talking points, you showed your analysis skill is ground shallow
randompersononearth9@reddit
Sure thing, have fun washing the blood of children from your hands
lightmaker918@reddit
Ditto for covering for Hamas
Winter_Result_8734@reddit
It’s genuinely scary to see how these people think man.
How can you justify starving children and beating pregnant women
redthrowaway1976@reddit
Israel should implement a death sentence for terrorists with blood on their hands to stop this madness of terrorists sacrificing their whole territory to get a bunch of prisoners with blood on their hands back.
We could safely count on Israel to implement that in a fair and balanced way - since settler terrorists are barely prosecuted, and Palestinians having a 99.74% conviction rate.
Just as home demolitions theoretically applies to both Jewish and Palestinian terrorist - but not a single Jewish Israeli terrorist home has ever been demolished. But not from a lack of Jewish Israeli terrorists.
lightmaker918@reddit
Tells something about you you so vehemently want to protect murderers with blood on their hands.
redthrowaway1976@reddit
I have absolutely zero trust that Israel will administer something like the death penalty in anything remotely approximating fairness.
How do I know that?
Because it is running separate and unequal court systems right now.
lightmaker918@reddit
I agree I don't trust the current goverment to, but I'd for such a law to be faily enforced, against Jewish terrorists aswell.
redthrowaway1976@reddit
That has never been the case. There’s been impunity for abuse and inequality before the law ever since the founding of the state.
So I don’t trust the current government to do it fairly - but no previous government would be better. They all perpetuated the same ‘separate and unequal’ legal systems. Every government since 1967
lightmaker918@reddit
I hear that all the time, and yet Jewish terrorists have constantly been convicted and jailed for dozens of years for crimes against Palestinians.
redthrowaway1976@reddit
Common talking point, but simply not true. Facts and data tell a very different story.
There's some individual cases that have been prosecuted - but overall, only around 6% are indicted, and 3% see some type of conviction.
Here is a summary of 19 years of data, 2005-2024
Summary:
If you want to look at anecdotal cases, there's plenty of those - like the hundreds of participants in the various pogroms, or the settler who - with soldier buddies - went into Al Tuwani and shot someone point blank.
If Israel wanted to address this, they could. They could treat settler terrorists the way they do Palestinian terrorists. What do you think would happen if an armed mob came to a settlement to torch it?
Palestinian security forces extensively cooperate with the IDF. See, for example, the recent PA operations in Jenin.
In fact, the PA security forces does more to stop Palestinian terror than the IDF does to stop settler terrorists. Often, as we know, the IDF accompanies and protects settler terrorists as they attack Palestinians.
This also isn't anything new - the 1984 Karp Report outlines how settlers attack Palestinians with impunity, and they are not held accountable. This is before the first intifada.
You mean as opposed to Israeli settler terrorists, who have their settlements supported by the government, issued weapons by the government, and where there's NGOs to support them in the very rare cases they are convicted?
lightmaker918@reddit
I'm aware of the Yeah Din report, and while I agree Israel recently doesn't do enough, I also don't trust this report at all. Yesh Din is a foreign sponsored NGO who has every incentive to cherry pick cases to make it seem like it's 6%. This does not change anything about my argument either, people know they will be held accountable for hurting Palestinians, even if the process is flawed, ad evident by the dozens of Jewish terrorists serving life as we speak.
redthrowaway1976@reddit
Yes of course. Everyone is lying.
The data on indictments and convictions is public. So there's not some secret amount that has been convicted.
Lol.
Can you point to the 'dozens of Jewish terrorists serving life'?
As far as I am aware, there's some very few - maybe even only one serving life.
How many people were arrested after the multiple Huwwara pogroms? What about the Turmus Ayya pogrom? What about the settler who shot Zakaria Adria point blank in Al Tuwani?
Again, if Israel wanted to stop settler terror, they could just treat it as they do Palestinian terror.
Like I said, what do you think would happen if an armed mob of a hundred people came to torch an Israeli settlement?
Let's not forget that Israel is running two separate and unequal criminal systems in the West Bank - one has a ~50% conviction rate in the few cases people are even tried, the other has a 99.74% conviction rate. I'll leave it to you to figure out which one settlers are subject to, and which one Palestinians are subject to.
lightmaker918@reddit
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duma_arson_attack
> Again, if Israel wanted to stop settler terror, they could just treat it as they do Palestinian terror.
22 Palestinians died between 2010-2019 according to Al Jazeera from settler violence. While bad it's not nearly close to hundreds of Israeli civilians killed in that period. Contrary to what anti Israel people say, this isn't as rampant a problem as ya'll try to paint it.
I'm also not very interested with the fairness of occupation judiciary, the occupation needs to end with a bipartisan peace deal, that will never happen with the continued radicalization of both sides, and delusion that the other side will ever go away, also practiced by both sides. At least the Israeli side agreed to a 2 state solution before, the Palestinian side has never accepted any deal.
redthrowaway1976@reddit
Yes, that's one.
Where's the 'many dozens' you mentioned?
Since October 7th 2023, more Palestinians have been killed by settlers, than settlers killed by Palestinians in the West Bank.
As it comes to people injured - settlers have injured more than an order of magnitude more people than vice vers:
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c207j6wy332o
Meanwhile, Israel could make them equal before the law in the West Bank. Just make the settlers subject to the same laws and courts as the Palestinians - would just take a quick Knesset action.
Israel, of course, doesn't want that - which is why the Knesset has renewed the 'separate and unequal' legal system every five years since 1967.
The Arab Peace Initiative somehow doesn't count? Lol.
Now, can you name a single year since 1967 when Israel did not expand settlements in the West Bank?
lightmaker918@reddit
https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/05/04/476722007/israeli-man-sentenced-to-life-in-prison-for-murder-of-palestinian-teen
There are many such cases I don't have the energy to track every single one for you. You can look yourself if you're interested.
Yes the settlers were getting out of hand, but also 2023 was the bloodiest terror year since the 2nd Intifada.
https://www.gov.il/en/pages/wave-of-terror-october-2015
Would be nice if Palestinians didn't give right wingers in Israel a reason to say they are not interested in peace and land grab and transfer is the only way. Palestinians are really playing a short sighted silly game, they can really win in optics if they said they are willing to sue for peace, instead they sell their citizens the delusion of destroying Israel and keep educating for terror.
It was pretty similar to the Clinton Parameters deal in 2000, it's a shame Arafat walked away from it. If it didn't involve mass amounts of Palestinians getting Israeli citizenship, it's a good platform for peace, but it seems like the Arab states disagreed amongst themselves even then. As usual, it's more rhetoric and posturing than a serious deal.
LipstickEquity@reddit
Does the death sentence penalty apply only to Palestinians or are you thinking of including Israelis within that same punishment?
You’d have no government left standing
lightmaker918@reddit
I'm proposing a death penalty for any nationality motivated murder. There won't be that many on the Israeli side as you suggest, between 2010-2019 there were 22 Palestinians killed by settlers according to Al Jazeera.
arab-xenon@reddit
lol you’re not counting the execution by the IDF in the West Bank huh?
Winter_Result_8734@reddit
Leave him be. He is totally indoctrinated by the Israeli terrorist state
860v2@reddit
Ironic coming from a Hamas sympathizer.
Winter_Result_8734@reddit
Funny that you proved my point.
Who said that I am a Hamas sympathizer ?
Just because I speak pro Palestinian dose that make me a Hamas friend ? In various other comments I called the terrorist and I mentioned how I am not a fanboy myself.
But thank you for proving my point that a lot of the Israelis are completely indoctrinated by their government to make a connection of :
Pro Palestinian ( aka anti war crime and anti genocide ) = Hamas sympathizer
Hamas sympathizer = terrorist supporter
Pro Palestinian = terrorist supporter
This is basically your view. Think about it and try to be genuinely open about it
860v2@reddit
Your comment history.
Winter_Result_8734@reddit
Amazing conter /s
860v2@reddit
Do you want specific comments? I can do that if you want.
860v2@reddit
That’s not murder, that’s self defense. The West Bank is full of terrorist groups.
cap123abc@reddit (OP)
There is already a death sentence. The issue is not destroying terrorists. The issue is the mass murder of women, children and the elderly in Gaza. Along with the complete destruction of basic infrastructure in Gaza that’s millions rely on. The world isn’t black and white no matter how hard you try to twist it.
lightmaker918@reddit
Meanwhile hundreds of Palestinian terrorists with blood on their hands got welcomed in Gaza with cheers of victory, over a 100 prisoners for 1 innocent civilian hostage rates. This is basically the only reason Hamas holds hostages, what's the point?
cap123abc@reddit (OP)
No mass deaths before 10/7? You have no clue what you are talking about.
lightmaker918@reddit
50 Gazans died in 2022. Show me when mass amouns of Gazans died without escalating first.
cap123abc@reddit (OP)
Around 200 people were killed during the March of Return and over 9,000 injured. Name a mass casualty event for Israeli citizens before 10/7….
While we’re at it, total the amount of innocent killed on both sides BEFORE 10/7 and Israeli deaths are still nowhere close to the deaths of Palestinians. You don’t know what you are talking about.
860v2@reddit
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_suicide_attacks
lightmaker918@reddit
And they burnt tires while producing cover for people to rush the border, we've seen what a successful broken border looks like. You don't get to just walk over a country's border because you want to.
I'd hope they won't ever be equal, I hope Palestinians extremists deciding to wake up some day and go murder Jewish civilians in a bar in Tel Aviv are always over representated in death counts.
Shiroi_Kage@reddit
There were always mass deaths in Gaza. 2014 alone saw the deaths of around 15 thousand people.
lightmaker918@reddit
Started by Hamas rocket fire on Israel.
Winter_Result_8734@reddit
You are a total lunatic and a total psychopath
Mad-AA@reddit
This is absolutely insane
"Destruction of a population in whole or in part" is a literal definition of Genocide as per international law.
And somehow we are walking through all of this as it was nothing.
WarmRestart157@reddit
This is literally a definition of terrorism: "Terrorism, in its broadest sense, is the use of violence against non-combatants to achieve political or ideological aims"
Mad-AA@reddit
This is not the definition of terrorism.
This is the definition of Genocide
"Destruction of a population" is a literal definition of Genocide as per international law.
cap123abc@reddit (OP)
“Return the hostages and eliminate Hamas, and other options will open up for you — including going to other places in the world for those who wish. The alternative is complete destruction and devastation.””
Complete admission of ethnic cleansing if the millions of people in Gaza don’t do exactly what Israel demands. Utter depravity and sickening that so many support this.
Dry-Season-522@reddit
So... how does that make Israel any different from all the countries around it who had their jewish populations "decide to leave" over a course of 10 years?
soyyoo@reddit
Read JSTOR, a reliable database to learn about 🇵🇸 rich history
Dry-Season-522@reddit
I'm sorry, palestine? I think you mean the land of Egypt stolen by the Ottoman Empire.
soyyoo@reddit
Seriously, just 20 minutes to learn about 🇵🇸 rich history dating back to before Shakespeare’s time
tkyjonathan@reddit
You mean Oct 7, right? A report from the UK just described it as "acts of sadism unseen in the world since the 1937 Nanjing Massacre"
cap123abc@reddit (OP)
10/7 was an atrocity as well. That’s why I hate seeing a 10/7 happen almost everyday in Gaza since Israel began their bombardment and are now continuing to do so.
tkyjonathan@reddit
You definitely deserve a block for that comparison.
Idrialite@reddit
You are literally the one who made the comparison
Idrialite@reddit
Absolutely. Oct. 7th was awful.
Throwaway5432154322@reddit
You miss this part?
Tsofuable@reddit
The rest are free to stay and be bombed.
860v2@reddit
Not if the hostages are released and Hamas is eliminated.
northrupthebandgeek@reddit
I'll believe that when I see it.
860v2@reddit
No need for any of that. Just look at Jordan and Egypt.
redthrowaway1976@reddit
Do what they say and get ethnically cleansed. Don’t do what they say and get killed.
Those are the options.
tkyjonathan@reddit
Starting wars has consequences.
Idrialite@reddit
Generally we consider ethnic cleasning, genocide, and other war crimes reprehensible even in the context of war. Hence the name
tkyjonathan@reddit
Generally, no one uses those terms when wars are happening. But apparently, the Jewish state is held to an entirely different standard, while the Palestinians are held to their own entirely different standard.
Idrialite@reddit
No one refers to genocide, ethnic cleansing, or war crimes when wars are happening? Am I understanding what you said right?
tkyjonathan@reddit
In general, that is correct. If you are fighting a war, even against a stronger opponent, I have yet to see people on the losing side call it a genocide or ethnic cleansing.
lovely-cans@reddit
And based on that logic the genocide of the Palestinians isn't happening? And not because of the videos, courts, witness accounts.. Everything. "But because the losers always say this."
Israel and the USA disagree with everything the palestians say about genocide but will happily quote the "Hamas lead health ministry" on their recorded dead because they know they're underestimated it.
Idrialite@reddit
Well... losing a war isn't equivalent to genocide.
Take a look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_genocides. A lot of genocides occur during a war...
Same with ethnic cleansing... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_cleansing_campaigns
And surely I don't have to point out how absurd it is to suggest "war crimes" don't happen during "wars".
Wtf are you even saying? What is this argument? A war is occurring, therefore genocide and ethnic cleansing can't occur? Even if this is the very first war in history where genocide and ethnic cleansing are occurring, that just makes it a world first. It doesn't mean reality and words shift to suddenly make it not real.
tkyjonathan@reddit
Wikipedia is not a good source for politicial issues such as these:
https://manhattan.institute/article/is-wikipedia-politically-biased
https://www.piratewires.com/p/how-the-regime-captured-wikipedia
https://thewikipediaflood.blogspot.com/2024/09/anti-zionist-editors-trash-wikipedia.html
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/25785648.2023.2168939?scroll=top&needAccess=true&role=tab&aria-labelledby=full-article#abstract
https://thedispatch.com/article/fact-check-has-a-wikipedia-founder/
https://www.worldreligionnews.com/wikipedia/wikipedia-and-judaism-how-holocaust-denial-became-embedded-in-the-worlds-go-to-source-of-misinformation/
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/wikipedia-jewish-problem
https://www.piratewires.com/p/how-wikipedia-s-pro-hamas-editors-hijacked-the-israel-palestine-narrative
https://jewishjournal.com/news/united-states/376157/wikipedia-editors-place-a-near-total-ban-on-calling-gaza-health-ministry-hamas-run/
https://forward.com/opinion/550600/wikipedia-holocaust-disinformation/
https://www.algemeiner.com/2024/12/04/wikipedias-quiet-revolution-how-coordinated-group-editors-reshaped-israeli-palestinian-narrative/
Wikipedia is BROKEN (Hacked by pro-Palestinians) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnceHuVnXWg
https://www.thetimes.com/uk/article/how-wikipedia-is-being-changed-to-downgrade-iranian-human-rights-atrocities-0j6gqqtkt
https://www.piratewires.com/p/the-terrorist-propaganda-to-reddit-pipeline
https://digitalcommons.chapman.edu/history_data/1/
https://www.thejc.com/opinion/analysis/how-wikipedia-is-warping-the-worlds-view-of-israel-bmqzvizw
https://www.thepanthernewspaper.org/news/qc524ux8pw0df80na9dl9wcekjkffq
https://nypost.com/2025/03/18/business/dozens-of-wikipedia-editors-colluded-on-years-long-anti-israel-campaign-bombshell-adl-report-claims/
Idrialite@reddit
Actually, here you go. https://chatgpt.com/share/67dd8166-c024-8011-b0b6-3b2a71a05f36
Idrialite@reddit
That's great. Read the conversation again and reply with something that's relevant. Ask ChatGPT what's going on if you really still can't understand. Do it, really.
redthrowaway1976@reddit
So what are appropriate consequences for what Israel has been doing in the West Bank for 57 years?
tkyjonathan@reddit
Gaza is not the West Bank. But if you are referring to the barriers there, those were erected after a wave of suicide bombers came from the West Bank into Israel during the second intifada.
redthrowaway1976@reddit
It is the same overall conflict.
No, I am referring to the never-ending illegal land grabs for settlements, and the impunity with which settlers can attack Palestinains. Often protected by the IDF when they go on their terror rampages.
What happened, for example, 1967 to 1987? Settlement land grabs, military rule, and impunity for settler terror. Just like today.
If Israel wanted to build a border wall, it should be - you know - along the border. Not 85% of it inside the border.
tkyjonathan@reddit
Nothing about the West Bank was mentioned as the reason for "al-aqsa flood" which started this war.
vaksninus@reddit
Is being forced to move (the implied threat I assume), the same as ethnic cleansing now?
Idrialite@reddit
read word
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing
waiver@reddit
... yes, that's what ethnic cleansing implies, what did you think it meant?
Winter_Result_8734@reddit
No way you are trying to justify this
Why are people so rotten omg this is crazy
vaksninus@reddit
Justifying what? I don't care much about Israel or Palestine, its like watching 2 villians fight, cold blooded terrorists and poor citizens vs cold blooded genociders and passive citizens. HAMAS did what they wanted and now Israel does it. Neither side obviously cares about the other.
Winter_Result_8734@reddit
It’s totally fine to have a bad stand on Hamas. I ain’t a fanboy either.
But I think it’s actually morally wrong to not criticize Israel wayyyy harder. They are supposed to be the „good guys“ and now they are acting worse than the terrorist
redthrowaway1976@reddit
Yes, forcing people of a specific ethnicity to move is literally ethnic cleansing.
What did you think ethnic cleansing meant?
vaksninus@reddit
I thought it was only considered cleansing if it was through killing but I see expulsion and similar methods also falls under the same category.
"the expulsion, imprisonment, or killing of an ethnic minority by a dominant majority in order to achieve ethnic homogeneity".
Nottabird_Nottaplane@reddit
Ethnic cleansing routinely includes killing because 10%+ of a population is not leaving their country all at once without the threat of violence.
redthrowaway1976@reddit
It you kill people to cleanse an area, it’s genocide.
Fermented_Fartblast@reddit
It's cute watching people who are holding literal babies as hostages for political leverage accuse others of depravity.
Projection is all you know.
cap123abc@reddit (OP)
Israeli rejected the 2nd Phase that would have released the rest of the hostages. Stop pretending you care about them. Israel already has.
Idrialite@reddit
This is a bot account. Look at the comment history.
Fermented_Fartblast@reddit
Stop pretending that Palestine cares about a ceasefire. If they did then they would've agreed to one by now.
cap123abc@reddit (OP)
The only side that destroyed the ceasefire is Israel. But the facts trigger you so you have to lie. The 2nd phase framework was agreed to by Hamas and needed to be further negotiated. I’m sure you were complaining then too. But now Israel is bombing like they love to do.
Fermented_Fartblast@reddit
If Palestine actually wanted a ceasefire then there would be one by now. There is no ceasefire because Palestine does not care enough about peace to agree to one.
So you can stop pretending like you care about Palestinian children. Palestine already has.
Unable_Duck9588@reddit
There was one, Israel broke it. As they always do.
Another American wanting innocent baby blood spilled from across the globe. How quaint.
Fermented_Fartblast@reddit
There is no ceasefire because Palestine doesn't want one. It's that simple.
It's truly sickening to watch a nation sacrifice its own children by refusing to accept a ceasefire, but that's the choice Palestine has made. They simply don't care enough about their own children to accept a ceasefire.
Unable_Duck9588@reddit
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-09-19/ty-article/.premium/new-evidence-reveals-netanyahus-relentless-efforts-to-block-hostage-deal-report-shows/00000192-0a79-d1bc-a1ff-2e7fe0420000
https://www.972mag.com/israeli-hostage-families-ceasefire-netanyahu/
https://www.timesofisrael.com/ben-gvir-says-he-repeatedly-foiled-hostage-deals-urges-smotrich-to-help-him-stop-this-one/amp/
https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/editorial/2025-01-14/ty-article-opinion/dont-let-israels-far-right-sabotage-the-last-chance-to-save-the-hostages/00000194-610e-d2ad-a19d-774f8ad90000
https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-hamas-war-ceasefire-hostages-netanyahu-ff48f081b069e484955a72bc68261364
Fermented_Fartblast@reddit
Yes, it is truly tragic that Palestine still has not agreed to a ceasefire. A sickening and bloodthirsty choice from a sickening and bloodthirsty nationalist ideology.
Clean-Ad-6642@reddit
Deflect & deny. Deflect & deny. That's all you ever do. Won't ever discuss or argue the point at hand. Can't ever because you know that you are arguing for us morally indefensible.
Fermented_Fartblast@reddit
There's no getting around the fact that Israel offered a ceasefire deal to Palestine and Palestine rejected it.
If Palestine actually wanted peace, they would've accepted that Israeli ceasefire offer. But they didn't, because Palestine doesn't want peace.
Unable_Duck9588@reddit
Ignoring the truth won’t work here buddy. You cheer the death of babies and children and are a deplorable person for doing so.
Go back to worldnews if you want a circlejerk. We talk facts here.
Fermented_Fartblast@reddit
I just pray that Palestine accepts a ceasefire as soon as possible. For their own sakes.
Unable_Duck9588@reddit
Praying won’t help, tell your representatives to tell netanyahu to stop sabotaging every hostage deal.
Fermented_Fartblast@reddit
Tell Palestinians to accept a ceasefire. Nothing is stopping them from doing so immediately, except for their own insatiable national thirst for Jewish blood.
Shiroi_Kage@reddit
There was one just a few days ago. Israel broke it. What are you talking about?
CastleElsinore@reddit
It ended three weeks ago, on March first
cap123abc@reddit (OP)
They agreed to the ceasefire that Israel ended. You are a dunce.
axeteam@reddit
While I don't support taking hostages, there is something far worse than hostage-taking.
mittfh@reddit
And they'll likely faces total destruction if they do hand over the hostages, as Israel will point out Hamas still exists so is therefore still a threat.
Kahzootoh@reddit
When loving the sound of your own voice meets the gradual realization that Israel cannot simply defeat Hamas..
If the Israelis thought they could achieve victory, they wouldn’t waste their time making statements or threats- you don’t see a hunter threatening ducks or deer.
tkyjonathan@reddit
It can easily defeat Hamas if all the human shields leave Gaza.
dukeofflavor@reddit
Imagine referring to civilians living on a tiny patch of THEIR land occupied by an imperialist apartheid state as "human shields!"
Dry-Season-522@reddit
War's not about who is right. It's about who is left.
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
There seems to be no benefit whatsoever for Hamas to continue to hold the hostages at this point. What exactly is stopping them from handing them over to avoid more death and destruction?
Several_Cycle_2012@reddit
Multiple incorrect premises. You could have said this the day before the original ceasefire was in place. Going beyond the immediate benefits like having hundreds of the Palestinian hostages freed, not just having Gaza carved up however netenyahu wants is a priority for Hamas.
I would hope after hearing every Israeli politician and every other American one say they will finish “Hamas”, you would understand what turning over the hostages unconditionally would mean for Gaza.
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
Turning over the hostages immediately at this point would mean the end of the war. Of course at the beginning that wouldn’t have been enough, but Gaza and Hamas have paid enough of a price for the war to end once they give back the hostages. Give back the hostages, then the reason for the war suddenly evaporates.
Several_Cycle_2012@reddit
It seems like you are missing something. Try rereading what I wrote.
Consider the possibly of Israel’s primary objective not being something as nice as getting their hostages back.
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
The primary objective for most of the Israelis supporting the war is getting the hostages back. Once they get them back, popular support for the war disappears and suddenly the lives of soldiers are being thrown away for nothing. That wouldn’t stand, so peace would follow soon after.
meister2983@reddit
I don't think that is true or there would be more pressure on the government to have entered phase 2 negotiations without a demand that Hamas disarms.
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
Hamas doesn’t really have any right to negotiate for the hostages’ release. Release the hostages without preconditions and then there’ll be peace. Don’t, and see yet more destruction.
waiver@reddit
I think that you are either being foolishly naive or intellectually dishonest, Netanyahu has already said that he will keep attacking no matter what, and Israel throughly violated the previous ceasefire. You are claiming that they should trust on the good will of a country that invaded and bombed Syria for no reason.
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
Tell me what Hamas gains by keeping the hostages. Israel has said they’ll level Gaza if the hostages aren’t returned. What makes Hamas think Israel won’t, and what could Hamas gain that’s more important than Gaza still standing?
waiver@reddit
It appears there is little incentive for Hamas to release the hostages, as Israel is likely to continue its attacks on Gaza regardless. Furthermore, with the Israeli government reportedly stating that their objective involves the ethnic cleansing of Gaza, Hamas finds itself with no compelling reason to proceed with such a release.
There is a reason why Israel wanted to keep extending phase one without starting phase two, so once the hostages were free they could keep bombing.
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
If there’s a chance the war will end after the hostages are released, as opposed to a guarantee that Gaza will be destroyed if they’re not, I’d most certainly release for the hostages for a chance at peace. Hamas just shows once again that they don’t care about the well being of the Palestinians under their control at all.
waiver@reddit
You persist in pretending that Israel has any genuine interest in peace. If that were the case, they would have adhered to the phases of negotiation. Time and again, Netanyahu has made it abundantly clear that he prioritizes continued conflict over resolving the issue of hostages. Their agreements to hostage exchanges or ceasefires have only come under external or internal pressure.
To assume that relying on the goodwill of genocidal individuals amounts to anything other than suicide is either a profound display of naivety or a deliberate act of willful ignorance.
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
They want their hostages back and don’t want to give Hamas the ability to just attack them again whenever they want. Who would?
Tell me, what does Hamas get out of not giving back the hostages at this point? Israel has not announced not only that it would continue bombing but also annex portions of Gaza until it gets its hostages back? What exactly is the benefit of keeping the hostages?
waiver@reddit
Israel has also said that even if they surrender they will ethnic cleanse the land, what's the benefit of returning hostages? When your options are not returning the hostages and suffering or returning the hostages and suffering what is the incentive to do anything at all?
You are pretending that the Israeli government is a rational actor instead of an expansionist genocidal one.
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
I mean, if we assume the ethnic cleansing is going to happen regardless (it won’t either way, of course, but just assuming), it sounds like the options are either give back the hostages and end the war and prevent more death and lose all the land, or not give back the hostages and continue the war and cause even more death and destruction and lose all the land. So it sounds like, as has always been the case, Hamas wants to continue the war to get more Palestinians killed. If they cared about their own people, they’d give back the hostages.
waiver@reddit
That’s an impressive display of mental gymnastics to defend a government that disregards pre-established negotiations and commits war crimes. The options Israel presents are essentially: release the hostages, and we will kill you; or don’t release the hostages, and we will kill you. Israel is fully aware that this approach won’t secure the hostages’ release, and they appear more than willing to let them perish to justify continuing their assault on Palestinians.
I am done with this discussion, have a nice weekend.
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
The options aren’t at all like that. It’s either release the hostages and don’t die or don’t release the hostages and die.
I hope you take the weekend to educate yourself on this topic.
meister2983@reddit
That's not a credible position. Hamas already has negotiated for the hostages' release and trades have been carried out.
Netanyahu has long claimed the destruction of Hamas as a primary goal. If that's not the case, Israel should be willing to enter phase 2 negotiations where it would agree to pull out and get hostages back in the process.
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
How is that not a credible position? The point is that if Hamas wants destruction to stop, they should hand over the hostages. A pretty simple and straightforward trade if they actually cared about the Palestinian people.
Israel shouldn’t have to pull out to get back the hostages. Once they get them back, they’ll pull out to end the war.
meister2983@reddit
There is no offer on the table that says that the IDF will pull out if Hamas releases all hostages. You are making a claim about Israeli political pressures that may or may not work out.
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
Is it better to chance an end to the conflict or guarantee further or total destruction of Gaza?
meister2983@reddit
I'm also asking why Hamas doesn't just surrender elsewhere in this thread, but I also don't think your framing of Israel's position is correct either.
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
It really shouldn’t be about what Israel should do but rather what Hamas should do. Will Israel stop after it gets its hostages back? Seems likely, considering that’s what the war’s about in the first place. Will the destruction stop? It’s far more likely the destruction will stop if Hamas gives back the hostages than in any other fashion.
Several_Cycle_2012@reddit
You do a good job of living up to your nationality. Americans….
cap123abc@reddit (OP)
I must mention that the 2nd Phase of the ceasefire agreement slated the remaining hostages to be released from captivity. Israel ended the agreement.
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
That was after having to give up things apparently Israel found intolerable. Not sure why exactly it’s on Israel to show restraint at this point instead of Hamas just giving back all the hostages.
cap123abc@reddit (OP)
It is on Israel to be consistent. They are supposed to be the reasonable side. Either Israel cares for the hostages or not. I will not defend the actions of terrorists like Hamas. But I will also call into question Israeli action that puts their lives in further danger.
cookingandmusic@reddit
Pray tell me what being the reasonable side helped? During 10/7 Hamas made a point to go after the Israeli peace activists first. There is no benefit to moral superiority when most of the world (see this thread) is going to label you “genocider” anyway
cap123abc@reddit (OP)
I never said Hamas was reasonable. They are the logical consequence of decades of oppression and subjugation by Israel. Israel has the international backing by the “civilized” world and yet they have killed magnitudes more civilians than any Palestinian extremist group. People pretend Israel is reasonable. That was my point.
cookingandmusic@reddit
"I never said Hamas was reasonable." *proceeds to explain why Hamas is reasonable* lol tf you smoking
cap123abc@reddit (OP)
You seem to think because I understand all human beings would act similarly given the conditions in Gaza that I think it’s reasonable. That’s not the case. It is a fundamental truth that anybody put through what the Palestinians in Gaza have been put through would act unreasonable. They are being asked to reason with their destruction. Given that choice you would also act unreasonable. Especially after watching your family be buried under your home thanks to IDF bombs.
cookingandmusic@reddit
“It’s a fundamental truth” um…no? Like not at all actually? Surely we can agree the Holocaust was worse? I missed all those Jewish terrorists that raped all the German women…you live in North America on land that was actually ethnically cleansed…how many Indians have massacred your family?
NuggetoO@reddit
Should hamas release the hostages right now?
cap123abc@reddit (OP)
Of course. That’s why I’m upset Israel has destroyed the ceasefire and made Phase 2 impossible. The hostages are now in more danger.
NuggetoO@reddit
They are in danger because they have been kidnapped, beaten, starved , and raped by hamas. Not because Israel is fighting back to secure them. Imagine telling a mother that she is the one causing her kidnapped children to be in danger because she is going after the gang members that stole them. Preposterous
cap123abc@reddit (OP)
Why did you forget to mention it Israeli bombs being dropped on their heads for over a year?
NuggetoO@reddit
The hostages are in danger because Hamas refuses to let them simply go home
Imagine a tornado is approaching, but your boss won’t let you leave work. Your wife calls
"Honey, why aren’t you coming home?"
"I want to, but my boss won’t let me."
"But there’s a tornado coming!"
"I know, and I’m terrified. But I’m not allowed to leave."
Are you in danger because of the tornado? Or because someone is forcing you to stay in harm’s way? If your free will has been taken then the only one causing the danger is the one who took it.
cap123abc@reddit (OP)
I have NEVER condones Hamas taking the hostages. You are going at great lengths to argue against something I have never said. I am simply relaying what has happened. Israel destroyed the best path of returning all remaining hostages. I wish they were never taken. If you have a Time Machine let Israel know. Because they are actively going to great lengths to make sure the rest of the hostages never see their families again.
NuggetoO@reddit
The best path to returning the hostages is for hamas to let them go back home to their families .
cap123abc@reddit (OP)
Then you should be angry with Israel. They abandoned Phase 2 which slated all hostages to be returned to their families. Shame on Netanyahu.
NuggetoO@reddit
So you want there to be stipulations before the hostages are returned?? I thought you were for the immediate release of the hostages? Which one is it? Should hamas release them now or wait for Israel to agree to their demands?
cap123abc@reddit (OP)
Dude I can’t go back in time. I’m talking about the plan that was created to release the hostages. A plan was created (past tense) and Israel has destroyed it (present tense). I want the hostages returned and the people with the bombs are making that more difficult. The people holding the hostages agreed to a plan and Israel decided that plan was no good. Because they want to continue the war.
They don’t care about the hostages. I’m starting to think you don’t care about them either given your ignorance as to what the families of the hostages have been saying.
NuggetoO@reddit
Ohh the plan!? I forgot about the plan! If only Israel would follow the plan the poor hostages would be safe and sound in their own beds with their own families. I had no idea about the plan, this changes things. It's definitely Israel's fault the hostages are in danger, thanks for showing me why.
cap123abc@reddit (OP)
You are mocking a plan that was negotiated by Israeli officials you dunce.
NuggetoO@reddit
I'm not mocking anything. I had no idea they were refusing to go along with the plan. Israel is placing its hostages in danger every day they delay this plan. Why would they be so stupid and ignore hama's demands, do they not want to secure the safety of the hostages?
cap123abc@reddit (OP)
Isn’t exhausting? The constant pretending? No one is forcing you to behave this way. It’s almost sad.
NuggetoO@reddit
Pretending what? I appreciate you taking the time to set the record straight for me. I had no idea it was Israel's fault the hostages weren't home yet and you've done a very good job of explaining why.
cap123abc@reddit (OP)
Again. Exhausting right?
ForgetfullRelms@reddit
So if Israel cares about the hostages- that would mean that there’s no unreasonable demands-
even if the demands are thing like ‘’give us your nukes’’ or something else crazy?
If there is a line of unreasonably, what is that line?
cap123abc@reddit (OP)
It is unreasonable to negotiate a ceasefire that contains the framework of releasing every hostage and then decide to renege and bomb civilians. The hostages lives are now in further danger thanks to Israel.
ForgetfullRelms@reddit
And that’s why you should not take hostages.
cap123abc@reddit (OP)
Look into what the Israeli hostage families are pleading ever since the bombing began again.
Shiroi_Kage@reddit
But not for the leadership. The leadership wants to eliminate any militant resistance movement and occupation/control over the sector. Israel never committed to getting the hostages back, and many of its ministers say that destroying Hamas is more important than getting back the hostages. In fact, they had a deal that was seeing the hostages released.
Several_Cycle_2012@reddit
You have a bad habit of making costly assumptions. Even if Hamas is foolish enough to put gazas fate in the hands of Israeli society, the government is still free to carve up Gaza.
Hamas is still active, and Tony Blinken has said Hamas has completely replenished its fighters since Oct 7th. Advertising the end of the war is near while making sure another Oct 7th is not possible would be enough for plenty if not most of the general population.
Remember, the main reasons for the Israeli desire for a ceasefire is because some Israelis are in Gaza. Hell, there were large protests against the ceasefire while the Israelis were still held by Hamas.
Look at the West Bank. 40000+ Palestinians displaced, dozens shot dead including children, many houses and roads destroyed just this past month. Israeli society stands for that just fine. You are asking Hamas why don’t they let Gaza turn into the West Bank.
meister2983@reddit
At this point, Hamas seems to be in an unwinable situation, so still not getting the calculation.
Several_Cycle_2012@reddit
They’re in a very tough spot. They can’t do much more than what they did for 15 months prior to the ceasefire, keep their hostages alive and hope negotiations lead to an ok outcome soon
meister2983@reddit
Why would negotiations lead to an outcome better than total destruction at this point? The "get the world's sympathy" method is no longer viable with Trump in change of the US.
A rational actor would be negotiating surrender terms at this point.
Shiroi_Kage@reddit
You're missing one crucial point though: Israel has been demanding the complete displacement of Gazans out of Gaza since the 50s. They tried multiple times. This is not their first time trying it, though it is their bloodiest. Hamas knows that if they just roll over that Gaza will be ethnically cleansed. Their point is similar to that of the Viet Cong: make the war as expensive as possible for Israel on every front and try to persevere in the face of the seeming endless firepower and in the face of certain genocide. Where that goes is a question mark, but most nations that behaved like Israel ended up being defeated and either broke down or retracted completely.
meister2983@reddit
When did they do this?
To where? There's no receiving country?
I'm confused: is this death people are fearing or moving?
Either way, Hamas isn't really making the war that much more expensive for Israel. It has total air superiority and has a total blockade at this point.
Don't think this is historically correct either.
SurfiNinja101@reddit
https://www.timesofisrael.com/intelligence-ministry-concept-paper-proposes-transferring-gazans-to-egypts-sinai/amp/
Israeli government officials have openly been wanting to move Gazans to Egypt for years. This is common knowledge, it’s crazy to me that people are still trying to pretend this sentiment doesn’t exist. Hell, even Trump has espoused this sentiment within the past few months. How can you still deny that this is genuinely what the Israeli government and the US want?
meister2983@reddit
A link about some document made after October 7 doesn't prove your point that this is a plan from the 1950s.
I'm not arguing there isn't sentiment. I'm arguing no actual demands made.
SurfiNinja101@reddit
I love how even an AI generated video posted by Israel’s greatest ally, the US president, of Gaza being colonised and inhabited by Israelis isn’t enough evidence of intent for you. Do you need Netanyahu to send you a signed letter?
meister2983@reddit
We are arguing about the last 65 years, not today
SurfiNinja101@reddit
Who gives a shit what happened then, when we should be talking about what can actually happen right now and how to prevent a tragedy from occurring
meister2983@reddit
Different discussion
Shiroi_Kage@reddit
Over the course of this war you can find many statements by Israeli officials, but they did this previously. The demand to displace people to the Sinai was what made Egypt switch over to being communist under Nasser.
Either extermination or they will be distributed around. The US can put pressure on many Arab nations to receive bits and pieces of the population. Everyone is resisting it so far, but if the resistance surrenders completely then it will be much easier to execute.
Both. But the thing is that many Palestinians chose death over displacement. Many continue to do so, which is why the North of Gaza saw so much carnage for so long yet remained populated.
Nazi Germany is a good example. This happened to Andalusia when it started engaging in racist politics internally. Similarly, the US is now going through the retraction phase too. No nation that went full-tilt genocidal remained coherent or intact.
Several_Cycle_2012@reddit
What makes you believe Hamas was shooting for that? 17 months of live streamed genocided showed them the international community and law has abandoned Palestine, I don’t think anyone who has even briefly watched the conflict would say the 10000th murdered Palestinian baby being live-streamed would matter.
“With trump in charge”? You do understand biden/Harris were unwilling to even temporarily block aid to Israel or hold them accountable for their most grievous warcrimes to gain more votes, right? This is a bipartisan genocide, brother.
Surrender in what sense? Disarming+inprisonment while allowing Israel to turn Gaza into the West Bank? Over the past 2 months 40000 have been displaced, dozens shot to death, dozens/hundreds kidnapped, many roads, homes destroyed for no reason. What do you picture happening in Gaza?
As I originally said negotiations are the way to go.
Obviously as a American I don’t expect you to fully understand, but ending the fight now unconditionally “to stop more bloodshed” would effectively be ending the Palestinians ability for liberation. If the Palestinian people wanted Hamas to unconditionally surrender, we’d know.
meister2983@reddit
Biden wasn't running his own population transfer campaign.
Honestly, that sounds like a life upgrade, not a life downgrade.
Agreed with you. West Bank style occupation. A lot better than the present situation.
Depending on your definition of liberation, the odds of that happening are somewhere between zero and approximately zero.
Several_Cycle_2012@reddit
Yes, he was. https://reason.com/2025/01/27/trump-revives-bidens-failed-proposal-to-remove-palestinians-from-gaza/
“Biden only murdered the Palestinians, trump may have gotten a brief ceasefire but he wants to enact bidens displacement plan that is doomed to fail”
If you are going to discuss what’s “best” for the Palestinian people while being so feeble minded, the very least you could do is have a basic level of understanding of the situation. Filthy Americans from the comfort of their homes telling subjugated people to graciously accept slow genocide while having nothing between their ears is really something.
Have some shame.
860v2@reddit
Your entire premise is ahistorical. Israel has made peace with countries they were once at war with (Jordan, Egypt).
If Palestinians wanted peace, there would have been peace.
tkyjonathan@reddit
They are just trying to buy time. Thats why they released the hostages so slowly and havent released a new on during March.
Karlinel-my-beloved@reddit
This seems like the kind of thing you say before, you know, extensively bombing said zone. I guess I’m just odf.
doxxingyourself@reddit
So they have all the people locked in a camp aaaand… are just going to kill them all and we got here because these people’s grand-grand parents all were put in a camp and killed….. wtf
tkyjonathan@reddit
Naa.. Egypt is taking half a million. Syria, East Africa and Somaliland are taking the rest.
doxxingyourself@reddit
We found Trumps account?!
LowDownLockDown@reddit
That’s how you deal with terrorists.
uulluull@reddit
"We are not fighting the Palestinians, we are fighting Hamas" - ?
I read this statement somewhere recently, but I don't remember exactly where or who made it.
Tangentkoala@reddit
At this point, leveling everything might be a benefit to rebuilding.
Were already at complete destruction. Might as well give construction a head start with everything graded
McKoijion@reddit
So the US should “level everything” in Israel and Palestine? Am I understanding your suggestion correctly? Or just millions of Palestinians because you’re a bigoted POS?
Tangentkoala@reddit
I'm saying 80% of the infrastructure is crushed already.
Its all already level
McKoijion@reddit
So the US should “level everything” in Israel and Palestine? Am I understanding your suggestion correctly? Or are you a bigoted genocide supporter?
It blows my mind how similar Zionist are to the Nazis. It’s like looking in a mirror. They didn’t think their ideology was pure evil either.
Agitated-Quit-6148@reddit
So so so sick of the pampering. It needs to stop. Palestinians have lost.
McKoijion@reddit
Cool, we’ll just nuke Israel and Palestine into the ground. Or let Iran do it. Happy?
Agitated-Quit-6148@reddit
Wl that's more or less what gaza tried to do. Hence why they are now dealing with the consequences. Kne thing we can agree upon is Trump's bold vision for peace in the region. Everyone wins.
Agitated-Quit-6148@reddit
💯
saranowitz@reddit
One way to find out. They can release the hostages and hope that israel backs down. Or they can not release the hostages and Israel DEFINITELY won’t back down.
Pretty simple calculus really.
Also, they should really just fucking release the hostages already. And if the world really cared about dead Gaza civilians as much as they pretend to, they would be encouraging the same.
mfact50@reddit
As much as Israel complains about Palestinian propaganda, we really don't have much footage at all about life in Gaza right now or at any point of the war. Israel is really keeping a tight leash on comms despite what we do see being horrifying.
Shiroi_Kage@reddit
????
Palestinian vloggers and countless random accounts on social media from Gaza have been covering things including daily lives and struggle for water and food and even what it's like inside hospitals. Al Jazeera is in there too alongside one or two other Arab news channels that can provide a live broadcast from within Gaza. Israel imposed a total ban on foreign reporters coming into Gaza. If they allow them in, we wouldn't be having this conversation, but you can go look for Gazans on social media. Thousands are broadcasting their living hell.
redthrowaway1976@reddit
No foreign journalists allowed, even during the ceasefire. There’s a reason for that…
empleadoEstatalBot@reddit
Maintainer | Creator | Source Code
Summoning /u/CoverageAnalysisBot
coverageanalysisbot@reddit
Hi empleadoEstatalBot,
We've found 20 sources (so far) that are covering this story including:
telex.hu (Leans Left): "Israel abandoned the hostages, barbarism against humanity, Hamas' fault – reactions to Israel's new airstrikes"
Daily Post Nigeria (Center): "War: Israel issues last warning to Gazans"
News (Leans Right): "‘Last warning’: Israel’s ominous Hamas threat"
Of all the sources reporting on this story, 54% are right-leaning, 31% are left-leaning, and 15% are in the center. Read the full coverage analysis and compare how 20+ sources from across the political spectrum are covering this story.
I’m a bot. Read here to learn how it works or message us with any feedback so we can improve the bot for you.
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