Easterners: are all "turnpikes" toll roads?
Posted by Drew707@reddit | AskAnAmerican | View on Reddit | 122 comments
The only tolled roads we have in California are a few glorified parkways in OC, express lanes (which are pretty classist), and bridges—most of which were originally meant to be tolled only until their construction costs were recouped, yet here we are.
kaleb2959@reddit
Kansas is hardly "eastern," but we're east of you. The Kansas Turnpike has a 15-mile stretch at its east end that is not toll. It was originally, but communities on the outskirts of Kansas City have successfully lobbied to have the toll lifted to help encourage development.
However, while I-70 is technically part of the turnpike for most of its run through the Kansas side of Kansas City (this is a jurisdiction and maintenance distinction), people gradually stopped referring to the free portion as such. In the minds of folks around here, "turnpike" still very much refers to a toll road.
oligarchyreps@reddit
Massachusetts here: Massachusetts Turnpike is a toll road
I never heard of another turnpike
TsundereLoliDragon@reddit
We have a number of roads that are pikes but only the PA turnpike is a toll road.
Drew707@reddit (OP)
Is there an alternative to the PA turnpike and how much worse is it if so?
cherrycuishle@reddit
It depends what direction you’re going. If I’m driving Northwest, going Philly to Cleveland, I’ll take I-80. It’s like 30 mins longer, but $45 cheaper, and I avoid driving through the Pittsburgh area which I find nauseating. But if I’m going to Pittsburgh, I’ll probably take the turnpike because 80 will be too far out of my way and add an hour to my drive, and there’s no point in trying to avoid that area since that’s my destination.
Sovereign2142@reddit
The non-tolled alternative that almost parallels the PA turnpike is Route 30. It takes about two hours longer to cross the state but is very scenic.
MortimerDongle@reddit
The only toll-free alternative is I-80 but that'll add hours to your trip if you're driving Philly to Pittsburgh
abbot_x@reddit
For Pittsburgh-Harrisburg-Philadelphia the Pennsylvania Turnpike is the only sane option. There isn’t a good free highway paralleling the Turnpike, which goes through mountains.
TsundereLoliDragon@reddit
For long distance east-west travel the only real option is going north and then taking rt 80.
weredragon357@reddit
Or drop into Maryland and run 70
I_am_photo@reddit
Isn't turnpike another word for till road?
jurassicbond@reddit
Yes, but I suppose they may have stopped collecting tolls and kept turnpike in the name
firesquasher@reddit
I'd love to hear the history behind tolls being collected on Bordentown turnpike if that's the case.
syncopatedchild@reddit
If you're referring to this disconnected stretch of road outside Jamesburg,
then it was part of the Bordentown and South Amboy Turnpike, chartered in 1816, one of the many toll roads of that era which are now untolled local roads.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_turnpikes_in_New_Jersey
You can see on the map how it used to shoot off from Jamesburg's Main Street (which turns into Bordentown Ave. in S. Amboy) but is now cut off by railroad tracks. It met up at some point with modern US 130 and followed that routing to Bordentown. The railroad that cuts through the turnpike was originally built by the Camden and Amboy Railroad in 1832 as part of their initial operating line between South Amboy and Bordentown, which presumably is what killed the turnpike's business.
firesquasher@reddit
This was a fantastic reply! There are a number of turnpikes in the area and I had no idea of the history behind it.
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
[removed]
AutoModerator@reddit
The use of URL shorteners on this subreddit is prohibited. Please repost your link without the use of a url shortener
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
[removed]
AutoModerator@reddit
The use of URL shorteners on this subreddit is prohibited. Please repost your link without the use of a url shortener
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
Alfonze423@reddit
Historically, yes. Many were publicized over the years.
Flossthief@reddit
well the idea is that the toll pays for the road and eventually goes away
but some of them seem to last forever
butt_honcho@reddit
For a lot of them, the tolls pay for continuing maintenance.
devilbunny@reddit
In theory. They’re mostly just cash cows after being paid ofd. Sometimes it’s really necessary though - the Dallas North Tollway is physically limited to its current size and has no shoulders for a significant amount of its length. A 24-hour rapid response towing service to get the car(s) off the roadway is critical infrastructure.
Flossthief@reddit
That makes sense
Although states like Pa have vehicle inspections and the cost of the tags adds to the budget for maintaining roads
I noticed your flair has two states-- I'm originally from Pennsylvania but now am in Indiana; if I've lived in 5 states can I get a flair with all of them in order?(I've lived in a few of them twice or more so it would be more than 5 states)
NorwegianSteam@reddit
Old.reddit.com/r/askanamerican
You edit your own flair.
butt_honcho@reddit
Fuel taxes go toward it too. Road maintenance is expensive.
Not sure how to do it on mobile, but you can make your own flair in a browser by going to the "User Flair" section of the sidebar. If you hover over it, an Edit icon will appear. Click on it and scroll down until you come to a text box labeled "Edit Flair." You can enter anything you like there.
Delicious-Badger-906@reddit
Before the late 19th century or so, states and the federal government very rarely built roads between towns or cities.
The main way those roads got built and maintained was as turnpikes. Usually the state government would pass a law authorizing a company to raise money, mostly by selling bonds, to build roads between towns and cities. The bonds would be backed by the promise of toll revenue. Once the bonds are paid off, the company can’t charge tolls anymore and often the state would take over the road.
Many of these turnpikes kept their “turnpike” names.
Note that this is pretty different from the major toll freeways that states built starting in the 20th century. Those usually were always state owned and sometimes are allowed to keep charging tolls after the bonds are paid off.
Any-Concentrate-1922@reddit
No, but they probably should. Driving is hell on the planet.
Drew707@reddit (OP)
Don't really disagree, but until there are viable transit options, tolls are a regressive tax.
berraberragood@reddit
All turnpikes were toll roads at one time and many still are. But a few no longer charge tolls, such as the Connecticut Turnpike, which ended that in 1985.
KathyA11@reddit
We were on vacation in CT (Mystic Seaport) when they were demolishing the toll plazas. What a hassle.
Sovereign2142@reddit
This is true, but at least as far as my PA experience goes, a "turnpike" is a toll road. All other non-tolled turnpikes are just called "pikes."
WetBandit02@reddit
The NJ Turnpike charges tolls, but so does the Garden State Parkway, so it's not got a Monopoly or anything. There are also roads called turnpike like the Hamburg Turnpike in New Jersey that is just a road and doesn't have tolls. They're seemingly no rhyme or reason, it's like the wild west.
theother1there@reddit
No, just a legacy of the fact the Eastern part of the US is far older and were building highways before the interstate highway system (late 50s/early 60s).
Before the Interstate Highway System, there was no real federal funding to build highways so most states only could afford to build them as Tollroads. They were commonly called "Turnpike" (Penn, NJ, Maine, Mass, etc). When the Interstate Highway System was enacted, the US government incorporated many of these older toll roads into the system and had a grandfather clause allowing them to keep collecting tolls (which is otherwise usually not permitted). But in all cases, they kept the names.
Zardozin@reddit
The only turnpike we have is the one named for the state.
In theory it was supposed to be free by now, as the bonds were paid off, but I can’t argue with the decision to make it wider.
Delli-paper@reddit
Not anymore
butt_honcho@reddit
No. On some roads it's just become part of their name, like the Hamburg Turnpike in northeastern New Jersey.
Ill_Pressure3893@reddit
It connected to the Newark-Pompton Turnpike, which also was a toll road for most of the 19th Century …
butt_honcho@reddit
Yeah, New Jersey has a lot of turnpikes that aren't toll roads anymore.
limbodog@reddit
Was it not, at some point, a toll road? Because a turnpike is a reference to the two pike-armed guards at a gate who would stop you from passing through until they checked you out. Because the turnpike has toll stops.
butt_honcho@reddit
I'm well aware of what "turnpike" literally means. That's the whole point of this conversation. And whether or not it was a toll road at some point, it isn't now, but has retained the name. So yes, it's a turnpike that isn't a toll road.
butt_honcho@reddit
*shrug* Probably. But it's just its name now.
Human_Management8541@reddit
The Susquehanna Turnpike in Greene County NY too. It's a 2 lane winding road through the Hudson Valley.
im-on-my-ninth-life@reddit
Yes but maybe there's like 1 or 2 that are the exception that prove the rule.
For example, the Connecticut Turnpike was a thing, but tolls were removed; but also I think people don't call the road the Connecticut Turnpike anymore.
Ill_Pressure3893@reddit
It’s officially been the Gov. John Davis Lodge Turnpike for 40 years now. But plenty of us old-timers who remember those tollbooths still refer to the stretch of 95 & 395 as the old Connecticut Turnpike.
(My crazy father knew exactly where to punch the base of the basket and steal a free toll 😂)
I was a kid in ‘83 when the Stratford toll plaza accident killed seven people. (Six months later a portion of the Mianus River Bridge collapsed.) By the end of 1985 the tolls were gone.
Spud8000@reddit
well....maybe. back in 1700, there were privately maintained roads. you rode your horse up to the gate keepers house, and a pike was across the road. you paid a toll, and the keeper turned the pike to let you by.
often to make money, the wife would cook cookies and sell them there. these "Tollhouse Cookies" were quite popular.
in MA we have a Shunpike.
I am not sure if there are free turnpikes....will have to think about that. it does seem that the free ones have a different name, such as "Taconic State Parkway"
Drew707@reddit (OP)
No shit? That's where Tollhouse Cookies comes from? Cool fact. Thank you!
butt_honcho@reddit
No. The modern recipe was created at the Toll House Inn in Wakefield, MA in 1938.
CupBeEmpty@reddit
Yes but the inn was named such because there was a toll house there.
butt_honcho@reddit
"Contrary to its name and the sign, which still stands despite the building having burned down in 1984, the site was never a toll house, and it was built in 1817, not 1709. The use of 'toll house' and '1709' was a marketing strategy."
CupBeEmpty@reddit
Well dang, learn something new everyday.
butt_honcho@reddit
Yes, but the name of the cookie comes from that specific place, not the fact that they were generally sold at toll houses. If it had been called the Brownstone Inn, they could very well be called brownstone cookies today.
Drew707@reddit (OP)
Buzz kill lol
butt_honcho@reddit
I know. It's the kind of story you kind of want to be true.
Drew707@reddit (OP)
Really living up to your username!
But, yes, that would have been cool.
GetOffMyLawn1729@reddit
Middlesex Turnpike in Burlington & Billerica. I suspect it was a private toll road in the 18th century and they just kept the name.
Streamjumper@reddit
We have several turnpikes in Connecticut, and zero toll roads.
evergladescowboy@reddit
Hold on now. Explain how an express lane is “classist” please.
Drew707@reddit (OP)
Express Lanes are classist because they turn what should be a public good--efficient roads--into a privilege for those who can afford to pay. Richer drivers get a fast lane, while everyone else gets worse congestion.
wifespissed@reddit
I didn't even know what a turnpike was until I just looked it up. Not really any toll roads in the Northwest. I think the new tunnel that replaced the viaduct in Seattle might have a toll? I've never had to use it though.
mkshane@reddit
There is nothing so permanent as a temporary government program
rawbface@reddit
I'm from Jersey. Turnpikes are toll roads, Parkways are toll roads, Expressways are toll roads, you will even pay tolls on the Interstate...
Drew707@reddit (OP)
On the interstate? I mean, they keep putting paid express lanes on our interstates, but do you mean like all lanes? That seems not right.
rawbface@reddit
I-95 merges with the Jersey Turnpike, so it becomes a toll road in central Jersey. And that's not counting bridges.
RHS1959@reddit
There are many tolled turnpikes in the east. Many go by that name. The Pennsylvania Turnpike, the New Jersey Turnpike, The Ohio Turnpike. Other major toll roads have different names. The Garden State Parkway pretty much parallels the NJ turnpike north-south. The New York Thruway crosses New York east-west from Albany to Buffalo.
Chickadee12345@reddit
The GS Parkway was originally one of those roads where the tolls were supposed to end when the road was completed. Well that never happened.
RHS1959@reddit
It’s also one of those that have tollgates across the highway at regular intervals, not just at the entrance and exit. Those in the know would buy a roll of toll tokens at a slight discount and you only had to deal with one coin each time (I think the regular toll was $0.35 at the time). If you were really good you could hit the basket on the roll without ever stopping. EZ pass made that little amusement obsolete.
Chickadee12345@reddit
I lived in the Philly burbs and would go down the shore (south Jersey) regularly. I knew exactly the right amount of change I needed so I would line up my quarters and dimes before I left so I could just toss them into the basket and be on my way quickly. It's kind of a nostalgic memory. But at least the EZPass really helps keep the traffic moving on those weekends when all the Shoobies (me included) were on their way down or back home.
RHS1959@reddit
You should have bought the tokens. They were only 30 cents each when you bought a roll. Imagine how much you would have saved over a summer, and you might have a few old tokens ratting around in your glove box as souvenirs!
ssk7882@reddit
Not all of them, no. While that's obviously the origin of the word, some of them are now free roads.
TillPsychological351@reddit
There's a few roads I know of in PA that even dropped the "turn" and are just called "pike". Baltimore Pike, Lancaster Pike and West Chester Pike. All are just normal roads.
CupBeEmpty@reddit
Turnpikes are named so because they were toll roads at least at some point. Some no longer collect tolls but kept the name. Others are still toll roads.
Ashamed-Complaint423@reddit
No, it can just be a name.
DAJones109@reddit
No. But many roads named turnpikes or pike used to be private toll roads that were built by firms. Usually so far back that it was before the automobile or around that time.
Haruspex12@reddit
No. There was a toll road where I used to live. I forgot the name, but at some point in my teens it stopped being a toll road. State law only permitted the collection of tolls until it had been paid for. Oddly, the tolls had also been used to maintain the road. Once that stopped, the road fell apart.
Dai-The-Flu-@reddit
Not necessarily. Not too far from where I live we have Union Turnpike in Queens and Jericho Turnpike in Nassau county. These are just regular multi-lane roads, not highways. They don’t have tolls, they don’t even have exists and on-ramps.
Redbubble89@reddit
No it's random. Some turnpikes aren't even freeways in Virginia and it's used like avenue. Little River turnpike has traffic lights and is a 4 lane road and Columbia Pike is the same way too. I know New Jersey and Pennsylvania has theirs long and tolled.
Drew707@reddit (OP)
How better are they than the un-tolled routes?
Redbubble89@reddit
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_State_Route_236
I actually did not know this and I've lived in the area for 35 years. It was built in 1801 to 1806 and it was a private paved road with tolls every 5 miles where it went from Alexandria to Loudoun County. The spectators at the Battle of Bull Run were probably complaining about the tolls to get there. The and it was made public in 1896. No one bothered to change the name.
GlobalTapeHead@reddit
I travel on Little River Turnpike occasionally. Sometimes the traffic is slow enough in Annandale you can read the historical marker near downtown that explains its history!
Redbubble89@reddit
Outside of taking courses at NVCC, never find myself down there that much and I'm in Merrifield Vienna Tysons area now.
ursulawinchester@reddit
Usually, in my experience, a turnpike with a toll has more lanes and fewer exits. It’s like an interstate.
If a road is called a turnpike but doesn’t have a toll, you can usually expect it to be more akin to a county route. It will probably have intersections, not exits. It may very well have businesses. They used to be tolled, perhaps even before cars, and the name just stuck. Like how you still “rewind” a video even though you are streaming it online, so there is no tape.
Also note that most of the NJ Turnpike IS I-95. When my cousin was a kid and went on a road trip to Boston or somewhere, they were surprised the signs changed but the road stayed the same.
Drew707@reddit (OP)
Like an anachronism. Makes sense.
12BumblingSnowmen@reddit
They aren’t. They just were the only “good roads” in the early 19th century. If you read about the Civil War, a lot of these come up. Warrenton Turnpike (Modern US-29) and the Valley Turnpike (Modern US-11) are example of this.
Rough-Riderr@reddit
There's a road in Virginia Beach and Chesapeake, VA called Centerville Turnpike. It's not a toll road. It's not even a highway. It's just a (mostly) 2-lane road that runs through town.
abbot_x@reddit
That was a toll road in the distant past.
NamingandEatingPets@reddit
Nope.
nosomogo@reddit
As a grown-ass man from the Great American West, I have no fucking idea what a "turnpike" is. I've never once in my life encountered a "toll road" or been charged to drive somewhere. I get a little annoyed if I have to pay for parking. The East Coast might as well be fuckin' Moldova as far as I can tell.
GotWheaten@reddit
No. Nashville has a lot of “pikes”; none of which are toll roads
HudsonMelvale2910@reddit
For what it’s worth, the name that has stuck around on historic turnpikes that are free now has usually been shortened to “pike.” So in the Philadelphia area you have Bristol Pike, Germantown Pike, Ridge Pike, West Chester Pike, Lancaster Pike, Baltimore Pike, Chester Pike, etc. Growing up, I just thought it was a word for a big road like Avenue or Boulevard and it wasn’t uncommon to hear someone refer to whichever they lived near as “The Pike.”
Proud_Calendar_1655@reddit
Historically the term turnpike was used for toll roads bc you would turn around at the pike/toll if you didn’t have any money to pay.
Alfonze423@reddit
There would be a pike across the road, mounted on a pivot point, which the toll-taker would turn to let you pass after paying the toll. Hence, a turn-pike road.
PseudonymIncognito@reddit
And then you had the shunpikes which were the alternate routes that people took to avoid paying tolls.
Inevitable_Channel18@reddit
Anyone saying yes to this is completely incorrect
CerebralAccountant@reddit
Almost always. There might be a stray exception here or there, but you can assume "turnpike = toll road" pretty safely.
In and around Appalachia, "pike" is a common name for state and U.S. highways between towns. For example, US-31 south of Franklin, Tennessee is the Columbia Pike, a two to four lane road connecting Franklin, Spring Hill, and (surprise!) Columbia. Pikes might have had a toll back in the day, but not anymore.
Wise-Construction922@reddit
It seems “pikes” were old point to point wagon roads, usually named for what town it was headed to or terminated at.
Lots of civil war battles were fought at pikes
CerebralAccountant@reddit
Exactly.
tranquilrage73@reddit
Yes. But not all toll roads are turnpikes.
Relative-Magazine951@reddit
They got a turnpike that's all I know
Square-Platypus4029@reddit
All turnpikes are toll roads but not all toll roads are turnpikes.
Rough-Riderr@reddit
Nope
fakesaucisse@reddit
I have driven on many roads called turnpikes in PA and none of them have tolls.
therealjerseytom@reddit
There's only one turnpike, to rule them all.
NJTP
Accept no substitutes.
Nah for real of all the places I've lived and traveled the only time I've heard "turnpike" mentioned regularly is NJ.
shelwood46@reddit
PA has one (76) as does Ohio (80, which is free through PA)
burberburnerr@reddit
Nah, the first highway in the world earned it, the Pennsylvania Turnpike and all it’s curvy, boring, hilly glory
kermitdafrog21@reddit
We shorten it up, but we have the MA Pike
Drew707@reddit (OP)
I was thinking about Being John Malkovich which prompted this question lol.
Watcher0011@reddit
Here in Northern California most of the freeways have toll lanes which I find crazy that people are ok paying money to drive on a road tax dollars built.
shelwood46@reddit
Yes, in the northeast we tend to assume highways will be free unless it's a "turnpike" or "parkway" or "thruway" (or bridge or tunnel), we almost never use the word 'freeway" at all.
Drew707@reddit (OP)
Yeah, and they are adding more, which is kinda bullshit since the people that can afford them are the least impacted by traffic.
shelwood46@reddit
They all were historically, but there are many "turnpikes" that are now just plain old roads. The "Georgetown-Franklin Turnpike", aka Route 518 through Central Jersey/lower Somerset County had tolls on it, but I'm pretty sure that stopped in the early 1800s.
Chrisg69911@reddit
Yes. On a side note, the whole "tolls to pay for construction costs" was such a silly thing to believe in in the first place way back when. Do roads and bridges magically stay all good and dandy without any funding? No. Take for example the GWB, it was supposed to have its tolls reduced or taken away after construction. Right now its in a $2 billion, 15 year project to basically rebuild it and everything around it (they just finished replacing all of the cables a few weeks ago). Where was that money supposed to come from, thin air? The owners of the bridge (Port Authority of NY and NJ) don't get any tax money and are self-sustained.
DubiousSpaniel@reddit
In Atlanta they built a toll road in the early 90s, GA400, that goes from Buckhead up to the northern suburbs. It must be 8 out 10 lanes in parts and it’s a very important commuting route into the city. They installed tollbooths with the promise that the 50 cent toll would go away once the road was paid for. ‘Yeah right’, I thought, ‘that will never happen’. Well, about 10-15 years ago they demolished the tollbooths and the road is now free! The state keep widening, lengthening and improving GA400, but the road is 100% toll free! I gotta believe it’s one of the few cases where the toll actually went away!
Drew707@reddit (OP)
I think just regular taxes that already cover other infrastructure maintenance costs, but I wasn't eligible to vote in the 1930s.
zebostoneleigh@reddit
No. Lots of turnpikes are not toll roads.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_turnpikes_in_New_York
butt_honcho@reddit
New Jersey has several as well.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_turnpikes_in_New_Jersey
WalkinSteveHawkin@reddit
Do they have a history of being a toll road, and the name just stuck after they got rid of the toll?
WalkinSteveHawkin@reddit
A lot of turnpikes are toll roads, but not always. For example, Little River Turnpike that runs through Alexandria and Annandale, Virginia isn’t a toll road. But that could be arguably be a misuse of the word because the term “turnpike” originated from toll roads.
Drew707@reddit (OP)
What kind of construction and design standards would you equate a turnpike to? On a spectrum of state highway to interstate, or does it vary?
WalkinSteveHawkin@reddit
Typically a highway. I dug through the history of Little River Turnpike just now (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_State_Route_236#History), and it actually used to be a toll road. The name just stuck after they got rid of the toll.
So I would actually rephrase my comment as, “a turnpike is not always currently a toll road.” I would imagine the same is true for a lot of the “turnpikes” on the east coast that don’t seem like they should be turnpikes.
charlybell@reddit
All the turnpikes I have been on were toll roads , but haven’t done an exhaustive study
o93mink@reddit
Yes