Israel launches first ground offensive since Gaza ceasefire collapse, partially recapturing key area
Posted by cap123abc@reddit | anime_titties | View on Reddit | 467 comments
throwawayyawaworth77@reddit
Question: for those supporting the Israeli re-invasion, the ostensible reason is to pressure Hamas to return the hostages, right?
But phase 2 of the ceasefire - which Israeli did not agree to pursue - would have seen the release of ALL hostages (in return for tHE IDFs withdrawal from Gaza).
So how can you reconcile that? Wouldn’t phase two have been a much more effective way of returning the hostages?
The hypothetical reasons I see are: 1) you don’t believe Hamas would honor the terms, but to be fair, they largely had through phase 1 2) destroying Hamas is more important
But what do people actually think?
Those just interested in name calling and slogans can get their fill on other posts please
SymphoDeProggy@reddit
no, the reason is that Hamas will not negotiate itself out of control of gaza.
that's why talks broke down. Hamas wants israel to pull out of gaza fully, while also remaining in control of the strip.
removing Hamas is the primary purpose of the war.
israel is willing to delay this prime objective for hostage release - and it did - but Hamas still has to surrender and either dissolve, disarm, or go into exile as a condition for ending the war. Hamas will not negotiate a surrender, so israel will keep battering it until Hamas surrenders or negotiates something close enough to it that no further war will be necessary.
Winter_Result_8734@reddit
Do you have any idea how much nonsense this apparent plan is ?
You will NEVER be able to pull hamas out of Gaza. Wanna know why ?
Because you kill their parents / their teachers / their children / their infants / their grandparents / their friends / their doctors / their servers / their family and you destroy their houses / hotels / restaurants / hospitals / schools / government buildings / police stations / gas stations.
You force a bunch of children into starvation and freezing at night. You force pregnant women to have miscarriages and humiliate them by showing of their private underwear. You beat and rape their women.
And if all of that weren’t enough you actively humiliate them and stop aid from entering.
Now tell me one thing, how do you think will this help you eliminate Hamas and not just strengthen their support in the upcoming population? Or at least what is left of them after you murdered them.
Tell me, would you be peaceful with your opressors after your grew up in rubbles and ate gras to survive ? After you saw your father cry and your mother lose limbs ? After you saw the pictures of fathers carrying their children’s remains in plastic bags ?
SymphoDeProggy@reddit
this is the "Hamas is an idea" argument with some dressing.
it's not. it's an organization. It has supply, training, and intel gathering infrastructure. it has personnel with institutional knowledge and experience in operational planning, smuggling, coordinating with external patrons, training. when these people are killed the people replacing them are less experienced, less knowledgeable, and less capable.
sheer willpower is not sufficient to effectively control Gaza, or any territory. territorial control is a feat of logistics. take out enough key members, enough institutional knowledge, and destabilize Hamas' infrastructure enough, it will collapse, or be pressured enough to surrender to avoid collapse.
Winter_Result_8734@reddit
Yeah no that’s how Military’s work and to a certain extend these militants too. But even if you eliminate Hamas. Do you seriously think that no other group will just arise from the ashes ?
One with more followers who are now scared from this one sided slaughter ?
I’m genuinely asking you this so please answer me.
Do you have any idea of what you did in Gaza and just how much destruction and death appeared because of Israel’s unproportional response and just how much hate the people of Gaza and the majority of the Muslim and at this point Webster world have ? How much hate these children feel for people they never even saw properly. The people who starved them and cut off their electricity. Bombed them in their sleep?
I want to make something very clear. I didn’t write all this to blame you or anything like that. I’m trying to show how big the extend has come and how much Israel did to make my question really pop
Do you understand just how much Israel did to Gaza and how much hate is in Gaza towards Israel ?
It is impossible from now on to have peace even if Hamas surrenders
SymphoDeProggy@reddit
one of the unique challenges of fighting hamas is that it doesn't have any political competition.
a good counterexample is Hezbollah in Lebanon. Hezb had the ability to proudly threaten political opponents with assassinations (and to follow through) if someone encroached on their political control. once Israel defeated them sufficiently, they became too weak to project power, a vacuum formed, and other political entities in the government filled that vacuum.
for Gaza, there is no alternative for Hamas that can fill up the space. moreover, Hamas doesn't have to be conducting this war while also competing with other political entities for control. this means Hamas is a much more resilient organization to pry away from territorial control.
but it doesn't make it unpriable.
like i said, territorial control is a feat of logistics. if you do not have the personnel and the organizational infrastructure to conduct war while also holding on to territory, you will not be able to hold on territory.
it is possible that Hamas will surrender before such a thing happens. but if it doesn't, it can still be removed from power by sheer consistent degradation.
that still leaves us with the problem of there being no political alternatives, which means the vacuum will have to be filled externally. some combination of Egypt, UAE, Saudi, and the west will have to step in and rebuild Gaza. nobody but israel will be willing to do the dirty work of dehamasifying Gaza, or keeping it dehamasified while this long term project is being carried out, but otherwise it will be these moderate arab entities in charge of rebuilding Gaza's infrastructure.
Winter_Result_8734@reddit
Sadly you didn’t answer my question but rather talked around it.
Again please answer my question.
Secondly to still answer you.
Hamas at this point will turn into a ideology. A belief.
You ensured that with all the stuff that Happened after the 7.10
Imagine if a new political party comes along. They are friendly with Israel. Do you think that the Palestinians who suffered from white phosphorus will accept that government ? Or the ones who carried their children’s remains.
I hope you get what I’m trying to say. No matter what happens from now on… peace will never be an option again.
I wish there could be peace but it’s impossible from now on. Too much hatred is flowing around. Enough for generations. Too much murdered happened. Too many civilians and workes have been targeted. Too much starvation happened. Too much medical facilities have been hit.
And worst of all which this comment section proves over and over again.
„Ignorance“
Israel is doing nothing wrong, the children are Hamas too, why should we let aid get in, cut off their water and electricity, hit them at night when they don’t expect it, send them from north to south and bomb their safe spaces, bomb the camps, bomb the aid workers
But we never did anything wrong…we were always the good guys
————
This is the worst part and why peace will never be an option after this point
SymphoDeProggy@reddit
have you read the 2nd part of my response ?
Winter_Result_8734@reddit
Yes I did but I don’t get what you are suggesting.
Israel is supposed to keep Gaza clean of Hamas while the other Arab countries rebuild Gaza and set up a government ?
How is this supposed to work ? You bomb Gaza while binding a government.
You can’t form a government while bonging a country dude.
Also you clearly didn’t get my message so I will say it again but easier.
No matter what government takes place in Gaza. The hatred of the Palestinians is at this point too deep. They will riot the new Israel friendly government. They will attack Israel on their Owen and form new groups to defend their Homeland. Now your part comes in where you said that Israel will take care of those groups. But how ?
Good luck trying to get rid of a entire generation filled with hate. Millions of people you’d need to murder to get rid of that problem you mentioned.
Plus let’s not forget that in this state there will be no possibility to build a government.
So again will you finally acknowledge my original question and do you understand the current point I’m trying to make ?
SymphoDeProggy@reddit
your confusion regarding pragmatics comes from improper ordering.
you are correct gaza cannot be rebuilt while israel is still fighting hamas. which means the fighting must be over first. you can't rebuild gaza before hamas surrenders or collapses.
if there's still military scale fighting to be done, then hamas hasn't collapsed or surrendered yet.
if the arab technocary administering to gaza can be killed by Hamas, then Hamas hasn't collapsed or surrendered yet.
these things will not work in parallel. hamas must be removed from power in the most practical, facts-on-the-ground sense, before any external administrative body can start doing anything.
like Germany and Japan. surrender first. then comes the rebuilding.
yes this does not mean no further bloodshed will take place. other terrorist organizations, or a disempowered but yet active Hamas could still fight.
but Hamas is no longer in control of the territory. they don't choose what is taught in schools. they don't control foreign aid money. they don't have free use of civilian infrastructure. you don't need 2k bombs to destroy reinforced cement tunnels, because Hamas doesn't have the ability to build or maintain them. you don't need to attack hospitals because you're holding the hospitals in the first place, not Hamas. they are not the government anymore.
so the image you have of a full scale hot war occurring simultaneously with a rebuilding project is not the plan, and will not be necessary to maintain security during
Germany could be denazified. Gaza can be dehamasified.
the palestinians are not more far gone than the germans were, nor are they more far gone than the jews who survived the holocaust were.
you're going to have to tell me which of the multiple questions asked in each of your comments are you specifically referring to.
Winter_Result_8734@reddit
Dude honestly I am done we are kinda jumping in a circle here.
Just two more things
Number one Germany was never really denazified. Look at the AFD the German far right party which has obvious connections to far right extremist nazi groups.
Secondly my original question to put it blindly was:
Do you acknowledge that Israel’s response was unproportional
And
Do you acknowledge that Israel hast murdered civilians and commited war crimes ?
I’m not asking this out of anger. I just want an answer
SymphoDeProggy@reddit
this is a stretch. Germany has been a stable and peaceful democracy for 80 years.
no.
yes.
Winter_Result_8734@reddit
Interesting conclusion
I did not expect you to accept the war crimes. However you declined that the answer is unproportional.
Dose that mean you are okay with war crimes ? This sounds really harsh but I’m genuinely just trying to understand.
Also if you want to ask me stuff go ahead
SymphoDeProggy@reddit
yes and no, depending on how you mean that. war crimes are not necessary to win a war, so i am not okay with them in the sense that i think they are ever good.
at the same time i recognize that war crimes inevitably occur in war, which is to say that it is not possible to fight a war without war crimes occurring. despite this knowledge i am still in favor of the war so long as Hamas remains in power. so you could say i'm okay with it in that sense.
this is one of the issues where the main departure is one of scope. i'm willing to bet much more of the IDF's actions in the war will be considered war crimes by you than by me.
i would imagine you'd have no problem conceding that some war crimes were committed by the Ukrainians in they war against Russia, but despite such instances, their war is justified and largely in keeping with the laws of war. in that context, would you consider yourself okay with the fact that Ukraine has committed war crimes during the war?
Winter_Result_8734@reddit
No I don’t think war crimes are ok ever. There is a reason why war crimes are forbidden and called crimes. We are talking about war. People kill each other and we made rules for that.
I don’t know that much about the Russia Ukraine war but I’m pretty sure war crimes happened. Sometimes they happen. It’s sadly part of war… however this dose not mean that they are ok. Every single war crime should be followed harshly.
So basically no I don’t think that war crimes are okay in any instance.
Also I have to mention that Imo the Russia Ukraine war can’t be compared to the Israel Hamas war.
One side it’s two militaries
The other is a military backed by the west versus a militant group that is cut off from the outside world. Now sprinkle in the fact that I believe that Israel is not caring the tiniest bit if civilians get hurt and you have a pretty different situations.
Russia’s warcrimes mostly hit military.
Israel’s war crimes mostly hit civilians.
Speaking about bombing a civilian camp
SymphoDeProggy@reddit
so you are aware that ukraine has committed warcrimes, yet don't this this means that ukraine's war is not justified, or want them to give up fighting.
so you see how you can agree that warcrimes are "not ok ever" yet still support a war during which war crimes are committed.
very much agree. we disagree the details of how and why.
Winter_Result_8734@reddit
I like it how much we talked already. I don’t think I ever talked with anyone this long on here before ( amount of threads wise )
I actually think you are a rather calm and logical person. I’d almost say we would’ve made good friends if your regime wouldn’t be killing children and you’d be supporting it.
Anyways to your question :
Your question in itself is very subjective.
Was Russia’s attack on Ukraine justified ?
Was the Americans involvement in Vietnam justified?
Was the entire world war 2 justified?
It depends on who you ask.
I’m gonna be very clear about this so listen and please don’t put certain words in my mouth or twist them :
I think Israel’s desire to eliminate Hamas makes sense. If I had a neighbor that threatens to murder me id wanna protect myself too.
BUT are they justified to eliminate Hamas ? Id say yes/no
On one hand they have brought you a bunch of suffering and did nasty stuff no questions asked this is a fact.
HOWEVER here is the No part, Israel has on a larger scale commited way more atrocities… I already named a bunch in this thread so I won’t repeat myself. It’s important to note that I am referring back to wayyyy before the war. The internet is full of videos from Israelis spitting on Christian’s and Muslims. It’s full of IDF pushing and punching pregnant women and containing children. Of videos on how they repeatedly mock the Palestinians for years and how settlers say things of the likes on how Palestinians need to be moved away so Israelis can take the land. On how your government is full of extremist who refer to Palestinians ad human animals. Your allies are publishing videos on how they build beach front resorts in Gaza and move away all Palestinians. If you guys really cared about Gaza they would’ve stepped up and said that this is not acceptable.
It is only logical that anger will form in the Palestinians and that a group like Hamas will result as that. You repeatedly put fuel in the fire called Hamas and now you are wondering why it gotten so bad and why the Palestinians don’t like you ( plus the entire world at this point. Ya all really messed up your public image for good ).
So do I think that it makes sense that your desire to eliminate them makes sense ? Yes I think so
Do I think it’s justified? Yes/no but more no tbh
But again this is a very subjective topic. You will probably think way different than me.
SymphoDeProggy@reddit
listen, you're good faith and cordial. i'd love to keep discussing this with you but life is too busy to be constructing essays back and forth.
if you're interested in discord chatting DM and i'd be happy to continue this conversation.
Winter_Result_8734@reddit
Nah dude its enough. Was an interesting talk but let’s be real here, this will lead nowhere. You and I both very obviously won’t change our opinions.
Honestly you don’t seem like a bad person either. Just your views on this topic kinda disturb me. It’s probably the bubble each of us grew up in. ( don’t get me wrong I am still feeling strongly for my brothers and sisters in Gaza, but I’m trying to understand your guys view )
Anyways thx for the civil talk.
And thy for ending this. My ADHD prob wouldn’t have allowed me to end tbud talk that „quickly“
SymphoDeProggy@reddit
fair enough
if that's the case then i have a recommendation for you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKoUC0m1U9E
Winter_Result_8734@reddit
I will look into it if I remember it.
But I’m pretty sure it won’t change my way of thinking. You can be a huge victim and still commit atrocities.
Too much happened at this point
SymphoDeProggy@reddit
now, as for the more emotional aspect of you comment:
in a practical sense - no, we are not concerned about Gazans hating us more. they already hated us enough that their government was Hamas. Hamas' goal was already the destruction of israel, and it was already going about it by killing as many israeli civilians as it could. it never wasn't.
it was never an issue of how much they wanted to hurt us, it was always an issue of how much capability they had.
so no, nothing changed on this front from the israeli perspective.
this is a bit of arab exceptionalism. gazans are people, and people can move on. make a peace agreement, maintain it for several decades while older generations phase out, and peace will stabilize.
all wars are terrible to those experiencing them. this is not the first war to ever happen, and it's not the first multigenerational conflict either. palestinians are still capable of self-interested cooperation, and this war did not change that.
ironically, the argument that you are making is the argument of the israeli right (though nowadays most centrist agree). that peace is simply beyond the palestinian people. that the hatred is too deep, too culturally entrenched.
the difference between you is that the my center-right friends have been thinking this for 20 years already - Oct 7 from a seemingly non threatening Hamas sealed it for them - and since they are convinced that Palestinians and Hamas' goal of destroying israel are not separable, they don't want peace anymore.
another difference is that, being Israelis, and thus an affected party, once they've come to the conclusion that peace is not an option, their next problem is what to do in the absence of that option. that's how terrible ideas like mass expulsion take root.
i do not believe that palestinians are uniquely incapable of moving on. you shouldn't either. and even if you did, you shouldn't be convincing israelis of it. we don't need help believing it already, and it more people believing it will cause worse outcomes.
throwawayyawaworth77@reddit
Let’s say you’re correct-is this goal practically achievable? Unless Israel decides to completely re-occupy the strip (which I don’t think anyone wants), won’t whatever governance returns just be the same people force and ideology with a different name?
SymphoDeProggy@reddit
yes.
one of the unique challenges of fighting hamas is that it doesn't have any political competition.
a good counterexample is Hezbollah in Lebanon. Hezb had the ability to proudly threaten - political opponents with assassinations (and to follow through) if someone threatened their political control. once Israel defeated them sufficiently, they became too weak to project power, a vacuum formed, and other political entities in the government filled that vacuum.
for Gaza, there is no alternative for Hamas that can fill up the space. moreover, Hamas doesn't have to be conducting this war while also competing with other political entities for control. this means Hamas is a much more resilient organization to pry away from territorial control.
but it doesn't make it unpriable.
on a pragmatic level, territorial control is a feat of logistics. if you do not have the personnel and the organizational infrastructure to conduct war while also holding on to territory, you will not be able to hold on territory.
it is possible that Hamas will surrender before such a thing happens. but if it doesn't, it can still be removed from power by sheer consistent degradation.
either way an occupation is unavoidable. as mentioned, Gaza has nobody to fill the vacuum once it's been created. that means the vacuum will have to be filled externally. some combination of Egypt, UAE, Saudi, and the west will have to step in and rebuild Gaza. nobody but israel will be willing to do the dirty work of dehamasifying Gaza, or keeping it dehamasified while this long term project is being carried out.
it's true that israel doesn't want to occupy Gaza, but Israel will not tolerate Hamas in control of Gaza ever again. and we've just established kicking their ass and going home will not do the job.
this_dudeagain@reddit
It's impossible to say without the intelligence on the ground.
azure_beauty@reddit
Hamas wouldn't be satisfied with phase two without foreign security guarantees that Israel will not reenter a war. What sort of example does it set if Israel lets Hamas stay in power after all this?
And if they stay, we have seen absolutely zero indication that they will ever be placated. So a peace is only temporary, until the next, just as destructive war.
Now, I don't know the calculations being made behind the scenes, but I think you can acknowledge that this is a difficult situation for Israel. Regardless of your beliefs, there is no winning.
Winter_Result_8734@reddit
You will NEVER be able to pull hamas out of Gaza. Wanna know why ?
Because you kill their parents / their teachers / their children / their infants / their grandparents / their friends / their doctors / their servers / their family and you destroy their houses / hotels / restaurants / hospitals / schools / government buildings / police stations / gas stations.
You force a bunch of children into starvation and freezing at night. You force pregnant women to have miscarriages and humiliate them by showing of their private underwear. You beat and rape their women.
And if all of that weren’t enough you actively humiliate them and stop aid from entering.
Now tell me one thing, how do you think will this help you eliminate Hamas and not just strengthen their support in the upcoming population? Or at least what is left of them after you murdered them.
Tell me, would you be peaceful with your opressors after your grew up in rubbles and ate gras to survive ? After you saw your father cry and your mother lose limbs ? After you saw the pictures of fathers carrying their children’s remains in plastic bags ?
azure_beauty@reddit
The Nazis still rule Germany for this very reason.
Winter_Result_8734@reddit
The Nazis actually are not dead yet. Look at East Germany and the AFD the far right German party.
My point was not that they won’t stop ruling my point was that the ideology won’t vanish.
Germany was its own biggest enemy. Hitler killed his own people if they didn’t follow him. Not saying that hamas is not doing the same here and there but fact is that hamas only exists because of Israel. If it weren’t for the opression and colonization the Hamas would not be in the position it is atm. And as long as the opression continues the ideology will never die.
Let’s make one thing very clear. After they declare the Gaza „war“ ( or rather one sided slaughter ) over. Hamas won’t be finished no matter what.
The children will grow up with PTSD and see the destruction and hate will flicker in them. That’s how such organizations work. But this time it will be even more than before. Way more Militants because ya all thought starving a entire population and bombing them to pieces was enough.
After the nazis gave up the allied forces pumped money into Germany and closely watched over it. Trying to do them good so the pest that the nazi ideology is can die out and can be erased from the indoctrinated people of Germany.
If you tried that with Hamas you wouldn’t succeed because the aggressor can’t be the savior. Imaging if Russia tried the same thing in Ukraine what the allied forces did in Germany. Won’t work right ? And same with Hamas and Israel.
You are too deep in.
Bloodshed will continue eventually. The kids of the annihilated Gaza’s will fight for their freedom with the very few limbs they have left.
azure_beauty@reddit
Well to be truthful, I don't really care if a few Nazis are left in Germany, what matters is that they no longer have the capabilities to kill me.
Same for Hamas. I don't care if some people continue to hate me. I care that they are unable to kill me.
Following Sharon's disengagement, practically every hostile measure enacted against the Gaza strip was in direct response to a provocation. Hamas fired rockets at Israel mere hours after it disengaged from Gaza in 2005.
It exploited every single concession. It forced Israel to fight back, and ensured that the Israeli response would incur Palestinian casualties, thus selling this idea that Israel is an enemy.
Or course, without Israel Hamas wouldn't exist. Without the Jews, the Nazis wouldn't exist either. Does not mean it's Israel's fault for existing, necessarily. And while some have been very unfriendly, others tried peaceful approaches to Gaza. None of those people have been rewarded by the Gazans.
And the "oppression" only exist to prevent gazans from slaughtering Israelis. If you give the average Israeli a choice between killing Gazans in self defense, or letting them kill you, I think you know what option most would choose.
That's not a justification for terrorism. Jews survived much worse, and yet I don't go around saying we should create Lehi 2.0. People can change for the better. No one is intrinsically programmed to be a terrorist.
You are also just wrong, as the limited polling we show actually shows that Hamas has lost support during this war, not gained it.
Not a very convincing argument for why Israel should give Gaza more autonomy and freedom.
Yes, and that's great. In theory, I would absolutely support that. But that simply does not work while Hamas remains in power, because they are a dictatorship, and their objective is the destruction of Israel.
Financial appeasement was tried. It resulted in 7/10
Wait a minute, you just said the allies pumped money into Nazi Germany after winning the war? Which one is it now?
This outcome is not inevitable. But if it is as you claim, then I see no reason why Israel should give leniency to people who you claim would try to kill us anyway.
You fail to understand that if given the choice, most Israelis would say it is more moral to break international law and expell 2,000,000 people with 0 casualties, than it is to fight a war with entire cities destroyed and 50,000 casualties.
From a choice of purely A or B, I would also say expulsion would be more moral than death and destruction. Of course reality is not so simple and international law exists for a reason, but what incentive to Israelis have to abide by international law when it failed them so much?
I do not agree, with them, but I completely understand why so many Israelis are done playing nice. If it didn't work in the past, how can we convince them it will work this time?
throwawayyawaworth77@reddit
Let’s say your correct - is “ destroying Hamas” a practical possibility?
azure_beauty@reddit
Well, yes. The depopulation of the entire strip is also a possibility, with Trump in office. Doesn't mean it is a desirable outcome.
But no, as long as there is no day after plan and no entity to replace Hamas, they will obviously remain. And Bibi is currently the biggest obstacle to a day after plan.
meister2983@reddit
Highly unlikely. US and Israel won't permit actual genocide and I highly doubt anyone can negotiate a receiving country to take the population.
Agreed in some form
redelastic@reddit
They have so far.
What a rose-tinted view you have of your criminal imperialist government.
meister2983@reddit
This is the problem when you redefine genocide. People just talk past each other
redelastic@reddit
Nobody is redefining genocide, other than those supporting and denying it.
azure_beauty@reddit
I wish I could be so confident. But four years is a long time, and so far every day is worse than the last.
Killeroftanks@reddit
ya no, the depopulation of the strip is not a possibility, unless you relocate them inside of israel (seeing every other country around israel has stated they will attack if they try that shit) so the only solution, is genocide...
or the actual solution, give a branch for peace, because the only thing that kills terrorist and extremists, is hope. but that takes time and everyone is too fucking stupid to realize the only solution that wont kill everyone involves will result in some more hurt. like at this point israel is gonna get more terror attacks, theres no ifs or buts about it, the question is, will it be a few or a massive amount that will likely break Israel's spirit.
wewew47@reddit
What do you make of the hostage families condemning the reinvasion and saying the best way to rescue the hostages is to stick to the ceasefire plan?
'We don't want to look bad among our own people so we'll resume massacring thousands of innocents. Our population lack empathy so massacring thousands actually doesn't hurt our image with them'
azure_beauty@reddit
The hostage families of course want their family members back. I am two degrees of separation from multiple hostages, most of whom are released, some of whom are still in Gaza. (By that I mean I know someone who knows a hostage/hostages)
That said, the hostage families are not military strategists. Maybe they're right, maybe they're wrong. I completely empathize with them, but I do not believe they should he the ones singlehandedly deciding the security of the Israeli state.
Now, from the reports I have read, Hamas is relatively unwilling to release hostages unless Israel gives guarantees it will not restart the war. Which means more hostages and more conflict in the future.
So if there is no option on the table which ensures the release of the hostages and ensures that no new hostages are taken in the future. The leadership needs to make a choice, prioritize the current hostages, or prioritize future victims? I do not envy them in the slightest, because both choices directly lead to human deaths.
You misunderstand. While for Bibi, yes, defeating Hamas is important for PR. For Israel a, defeating Hamas is important for it's security as a state. In the Middle East, might makes right. And if you showed weakness, bad actors will exploit it.
Many in Israel believe any survival of Hamas is a guarantee that other bed actors will not be inclined to attack, knowing they will survive.
PrimAhnProper998@reddit
Netanyahu wants to prolong the war in order to stay in power
Maybe they would get the hostages back but Hamas would remain. They want both, the hostages to be returned and Hamas to be destroyed. Phase 1 has shown that they are still there.
I think it's a mix of those two reasons.
dummypod@reddit
No.1 most likely. But consider that the right wing nuts also want this opportunity to annex Gaza and is willing to sacrifice as many of their own to achieve it.
Call_Me_Clark@reddit
Exactly. He was scheduled to testify the day this attack began - with the intended effect of delaying his testimony.
Sevinki@reddit
Number 2, destroying Hamas is more important than any hostages can ever be. Israel has played this game time and time again, hamas takes hostages and israel negotiates their release for an unreasonably high price. There is no reason to believe that Hamas will stop once this period of fighting is over, they will just get more hostages in a few years and start again.
If this assumption is true, the best solution long term is to devalue hostages, show hamas that they will not get what they want no matter how many hostages they take, instead all they will get is more bombs, more deaths and more destruction.
If israel succeeds in fully destroying hamas, great. If they do not then hamas will still have learned that hostages do not work anymore.
redelastic@reddit
Germany's support of this slaughter disgusts me.
Winter_Result_8734@reddit
They are actively supporting a terrorist regime that’s committing mass murder on children and women. I’m sick of lying my taxes here. I will turn my back to this country as soon as I can.
Disgusting rats. They will pay their price for this eventually
redelastic@reddit
Atoning for genocide by supporting another genocide, the German way.
Winter_Result_8734@reddit
They are the experts after all
Winter_Result_8734@reddit
Do you have any idea how much nonsense this apparent plan is ?
You will NEVER be able to pull hamas out of Gaza. Wanna know why ?
Because you kill their parents / their teachers / their children / their infants / their grandparents / their friends / their doctors / their servers / their family and you destroy their houses / hotels / restaurants / hospitals / schools / government buildings / police stations / gas stations.
You force a bunch of children into starvation and freezing at night. You force pregnant women to have miscarriages and humiliate them by showing of their private underwear. You beat and rape their women.
And if all of that weren’t enough you actively humiliate them and stop aid from entering.
Now tell me one thing, how do you think will this help you eliminate Hamas and not just strengthen their support in the upcoming population? Or at least what is left of them after you murdered them.
Tell me, would you be peaceful with your opressors after your grew up in rubbles and ate gras to survive ? After you saw your father cry and your mother lose limbs ? After you saw the pictures of fathers carrying their children’s remains in plastic bags ?
Fantastic-String5820@reddit
Why would Israel want to destroy one of it's greatest assets?
By the way what camps did your grandparents serve in?
FlagerantFragerant@reddit
I can't even begin to imagine the amount of head trauma one has to go through to think Hamas is Israels greatest asset.
By the way which street corner did your mum work late nights at?
UK_KILLD_10M_IRANIS@reddit
I wish German people would understand that the holocaust won’t get un-done by simping unconditionally for a genocidal apartheid regime all bc the said regime is Jewish this time.
I get there is a collective German guilt in your society for the shit you have done (and rightfully so), but the lack of critical thinking amongst yall is absolutely wild to me.
kirrillik@reddit
Germany has a far far far better international image than Iran. People care more about recent events than our grandparents history.
Eche24@reddit
You mean propaganda. What has Iran ever done to anyone that is unrelated to Israel?
kirrillik@reddit
Oppress women, gay people, instigate proxy wars all over the Middle East, I can go on. It’s a theocratic shit hole
Eche24@reddit
“Opress gay people”?
Why isn’t saudi arabia on the hit list then?
Fantastic-String5820@reddit
Britain, lmao
Ever find whose WMDs Barry?
FlagerantFragerant@reddit
Rich coming from someone from Iran. How are all your terrorist proxies doing? Maybe if there was some Iranian guilt. 😂
See why you shouldn't pick on flairs, especially coming from Iran? 😂
UK_KILLD_10M_IRANIS@reddit
You failed to make a single counter-point and just resorted to attack me for “terrorist Iranian proxies” (as if I am even supportive of the IRI lmao) and throwing tantrums like a little child.
The education system in Germany really is terrible, i see. No wonder that AfD is rising in power lol.
Fantastic-String5820@reddit
You don't have to imagine that, I'm just quoting Israels minister of finance lmao
You know, the guys that have your phul support?
P.s. I hope it'll be worth it when the next round of terror attacks happen Freidrich, don't worry I'm sure Israel will be grateful at least.
FlagerantFragerant@reddit
You're quoting them incorrectly and well out of context because the lack of self respect that led to you to have this fake Israeli flair is leaching into this embarrassing rhetoric.
P.S. there won't be any terror attacks Einstein, that's the point of the IDF objective to dismantle Hamas. Jesus, you can barely keep up, eh champ? 😂😂
warnie685@reddit
I'm pretty sure that's not incorrect at all, he did say that
FlagerantFragerant@reddit
Of course you are, cupcake. Ppl like you aren't equipped to understand how significantly the word "greatest" changes things. Ppl like you also skip that i spoke of context. That's why you ppl are just "pretty" sure of things and never get anywhere lol
warnie685@reddit
Lol, I cant believe you actually posted that, are you ok?
FlagerantFragerant@reddit
No, I'm not ok. I'm educated and have the deal with the likes you of you lot so it's absolutely terrible, thanks for asking 🥰
redelastic@reddit
"I'm educated"
Cringe.
FlagerantFragerant@reddit
Awww honey, the only cringe here is you following someone around and commenting this sort of stuff on all their comments. Find something to do with your life already 💀
redelastic@reddit
Jawohl, mein Führer.
warnie685@reddit
You really are aren't you? You can always tell lol
FlagerantFragerant@reddit
Good, at least you can recognise people more educated than you. That's a start I guess 😂
warnie685@reddit
Haha, I honestly doubt it. No I just meant you being one of those Antideutsche, the posting style is a dead giveaway.
FlagerantFragerant@reddit
Imagine thinking an entire political movement has a "Posting style" 😂😂
And imagine labeling someone as belonging to a political.movement when I didn't even mention Germany 😂😂
warnie685@reddit
Ah it does though, you can spot it a mile off.
warnie685@reddit
Are you an Antideutsche by any chance? That would explain a lot, and I don't mean the support of Israel
FlagerantFragerant@reddit
Another stupid question with less than zero basis. Jesus, I guess I'm the stupid one for continue to address this meaninglessness. Sigh.
warnie685@reddit
Definitely one. You always have the same posting style
FlagerantFragerant@reddit
"Posting style" 😂😂
We need to find a place for y'all to contribute to society somehow. Maybe a nice turnip farm where there aren't too many sharp tools so y'all don't hurt yourselves
warnie685@reddit
You should honestly avoid saying "y'all", it ruins the facade. Now that just sounds uneducated, unless you're actually from the South
redelastic@reddit
All the genocidal remarks are taken out of context too, I take it.
Your rhetoric is embarrassing - you're talking like a school kid.
Fantastic-String5820@reddit
Israelis respect you so much for your deepthroated support Gunther, I just want you to know that. I promise they don't make fun of servile gentiles
P.s. I wasn't referring to terror attacks against Israel, although they will tragically happen too
HugsForUpvotes@reddit
And the mask slips
FlagerantFragerant@reddit
Majority of the world respects Germans regardless. What they don't respect is this embarrassing attempt to make jokes cause you were caught spreading misinformation and out of context garbage.
P.S. you cheap behaviour is probably an upbringing issue. Get it fixed before it's too late, seriously. You should talk to who ever raised you, if they're still around and able to stand your display of embarrassment that is 😂
Fantastic-String5820@reddit
Lmao you actually typed this out oooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
https://imgur.com/xW43i03
FlagerantFragerant@reddit
Lmao you actually just "jajajajaj" like a true Israeli would. Can't imagine what a piss poor mental state you have to be in just to have fake flairs for fake internet points. 😂😂
This is way too much cringe for me. Get checked and for god's sake don't go spree in a school or what ever it is you lot do
Fantastic-String5820@reddit
So you do believe I'm israeli, thank you Gunther!
FlagerantFragerant@reddit
That has nothing to do with Israel. Forget working on your self respect, focus on some basic education 😂
Fantastic-String5820@reddit
You mean like this? https://imgur.com/J5YIDH7
FlagerantFragerant@reddit
Any education will help the wilted cabbage leaves rolling between the ears of trolls like you at this point 😂
dropoutwannabe@reddit
Hahaha you guys have your fight. I just don't want the humour of a kraut using kraut in an insult to go ignored. Although as you said I think that it's most likely some Irish mashed potatoes (or lack thereof) in the skull of this "Israeli"
Fantastic-String5820@reddit
So I should start studying skull shapes? Thanks for the encouragement Klaus
FlagerantFragerant@reddit
Jesus, you can't even apply italics properly. 🤦🤦
No problem, illiterate
Fantastic-String5820@reddit
Can't say I'm shocked to see this kind antisemitism from a German, why don't you just call me an untermensch 😭
FlagerantFragerant@reddit
We all know you're neither Israeli nor Jewish tho. Just an illiterate troll with so little to do with their lives that fake internet points are the highlight of their day. It's sad 😂
So run along now, go be the illiterate troll you were raised to be elsewhere 🥰
DanDan1993@reddit
When did a school shooting in Israel happen?
Fantastic-String5820@reddit
Israelis prefer to shoot up schools outside of Israel, thats true
DanDan1993@reddit
But I thought you're Israeli too? Why are you not using WE?
Fantastic-String5820@reddit
I can longer associate myself with the actions of Israel, hence why I have decided to colonize Ireland
DanDan1993@reddit
Ahhh so you're a settler? Jewish Settler? Jewish Settler Colonialist?
that's some tough group to be in this sub... thank god you are neither
Fantastic-String5820@reddit
Yes 😎
ODHH@reddit
Has Germany already dug up the old gas chamber plans for their Israeli friends or are you guys waiting for an official request?
DanDan1993@reddit
It's public information you dimwit
https://www.yadvashem.org/yv/en/exhibitions/through-the-lens/auschwitz-blueprints.asp
UK_KILLD_10M_IRANIS@reddit
Majority of the world still think of Nazis and Hitler when they hear of Germany, but whatever bud.
FlagerantFragerant@reddit
Majority of uneducated world who can't keep up with the times *
FTFY *
UK_KILLD_10M_IRANIS@reddit
You can cope with whatever you want, but outside your precious Europe that’s what most people associate you with lol
FlagerantFragerant@reddit
That's what most uneducated people who can't keep up with the times *
FTFY
Imagine calling education a cope, true Irani attitude 😂
UK_KILLD_10M_IRANIS@reddit
Yes, what a great way to show how educated you Germans are by making racist remarks lmao
FlagerantFragerant@reddit
Says the genius that just claimed most of the world thinks of Hitler and Nazis when thinking of Germany. Can't make this stuff up 😂😂
Hilarious watching y'all cry after using your own logic against y'all 😂😂
redelastic@reddit
I can't even begin to imagine the amount of head trauma one has to support the mass murder of children.
But, hey, Germany.
Sevinki@reddit
Oh the irony of your comment lmao
You defend all palestinians as innocent bystanders but in the same breath assume that every german has nazi grandparents. Keep it up mr „i am totally not irish“
Frost787@reddit
Hamas is born in response to the occupation. They may take down Hamas but a new group will take their place in a few years. It will keep happening unless the occupation ends. Palestinians won't abandon their lands, will Israel kill the 2.8 million Palestinians then? Their "most moral army in the world" slogan is already in the gutter, how will they clean their image after displacing and/or killing that many people?
FlagerantFragerant@reddit
Ya, that's called terrorism. Trying to gain political grounds by enforcing fear and destruction. By this logic, Indian must have been teeming with militants kidnapping people sympathetic to the British occupation. Y'all clueless enough to keep spouting the same meaningless crap that isn't true 😂
Frost787@reddit
Did you not see the video Israel sent to Palestinians posted in this very sub today? Who's the one enforcing fear and destruction right now? Clueless? What would a German know about genocide and occupatio... oh.
FlagerantFragerant@reddit
Conveniently skipped the "for political notices". What would Puerto Ricans know about good education systems that would allow them to read and comprehend full sentences... oh.
HELL5S@reddit
We know enough given the fact that we can actually argue for and defend our positions without having resorting to racist attacks based what ever false orientalist view you've conjured up about the island. Then again what would German's know about education when the only lesson they've learned from the Holocaust is that they should scapegoat their problems on Muslims instead of Jews so they could circlejerk each other on how they "reformed from our Nazi past" as they continued the exact same fascist rhetoric just against a different minority population. Not really surprising though given that American never truly committed to denazification and allowed bunch of Nazi's to continue running the West German state.
FlagerantFragerant@reddit
Your buddy that I responded to starter with a racist remark though. And you straight up continue with the racist stuff as well. 😂😂
Can't make this stuff up 😂
HELL5S@reddit
Truth hurts, Stalin really should have gone through with his plan to execute all of the Nazi officers to bad Churchill was a fascist who bitched about it. The Americans were pussies who should have gone through with the Morgenthau plan in the wake of your vain attempt of colonization.
FlagerantFragerant@reddit
Hahahahahah bro is so typically Puerto Rican that he can't even write comments to get past the auto filters 😂😂😂
Go back to your turnip farms or what ever else it is y'all occupy you lil lives with. Leave these bigger matters to us, we've got it. It's beyond y'all anyway 😂
Frost787@reddit
Germany is as irrelevant to geopolitics as Puerto Rico nowadays, honestly. Anything you say in your current crashout has no real weight to it honestly. You should stop wasting time with us small folk ans go prepare for your upcoming 4th Reich in the making.
FlagerantFragerant@reddit
Another illiterate that compares the third largest economy in the world, largest in Europe, defacto leaders of the EU to a country that begs for aid when ever there's a light drizzle that washed out a few villages 😂😂😂
Seriously, just go back to your banana plantations. We'll be sure to throw some spare change your way and you can have electricity or what ever
Frost787@reddit
Keep spouting whatever you want. Nothing coming out of your Schutzstaffel's mouth is really going to offend me lol.
The EU? Famously relevant right now, just look how seriously Russia and the US are taking them in the Ukraine talks. There's a reason Trump wants to pull out of NATO and distance himself from you guys.
FlagerantFragerant@reddit
If your village had the technology and education to keep up with the news, you wouldn't be embarrassing yourself like this. The EU just rejected any further deals with the US. Germany just approved a trillion euro project for infra and military and other EU nations are to follow. Rearmament Bank is already in full swing. Cause we're smart and capable, unlike you trump supporters and turnip farmers. Touch grass cupcake. Your country is beyond worthless compared to Germany or the EU. Learn to read the news 😂😂
HELL5S@reddit
Lmao turnips ain't what you guy's were forced to eat during WW1 when you guys were starving yourselves in your first attempt at imperialism domination in ww1, we don't eat that shit we have a far better cuisine than you euros could ever have (the mofongo and pork I'm having is absolute gas) . Your auto filter comment is absolutely nonsensical I honestly don't even know what your hallucinating about.
What bigger matters bro your country doesn't decide or influence shit you just follow whatever America says and like a good little vassal. You guys let America blow up you're own gas line its actually hilarious you think you have any affect or influence in this current phase of imperialist competition.
FlagerantFragerant@reddit
Hahahahahahaha even your last comment was deleted 😂😂😂😂
Just give up, like the rest of your country. Let us know if you need any aid money or if a small storm is about to wipe out all of your villages and stay out of our way unless. Embarrassing 😂😂
HELL5S@reddit
Actually hallucinating on copium. Love the fact that you have no rebuttal to anything you should really improve your rhetorical skills it would benefit you in your arguments. Don't worry we don't need your help we can support ourselves; let me know when you're countries starving during your next attempt at imperialist domination I'll buy and send some turnips your way since you seem to enjoy them during times of famine.
FlagerantFragerant@reddit
HAHAHAHAHA "we don't need your help" while begging the world for aid during your next rain fall 😂😂
HELL5S@reddit
Your tears taste amazing keep seething
FlagerantFragerant@reddit
Jesus, imagine living in such low, poverty that y'all think tears taste good. Seriously though, do y'all need help? We just approved 1 trillion euro budget package, we could send some your way for food and stuff
HELL5S@reddit
The salt from seething Germans is the best. Don't worry we're good as I said the mofongo and pork I had were gas enjoy your turnips I never had them hope they taste good.
FlagerantFragerant@reddit
Jesus, Puerto Ricans don't even basic vegetables like turnips. Y'all live in absolute misery, eh? 😭
HELL5S@reddit
Ya we don't eat that shit we have rice, beans, plantains, yuuca, and coffee. You can keep your turnips we don't want them.
FlagerantFragerant@reddit
Hahahah y'all eat coffee 😂😂😂😂
And you don't have turnips, you probably just don't know enough English to know what that means. Look it up in what ever language us Europeans had to teach you 😂
HELL5S@reddit
You drink coffee bro you don't eat it sorry if you didn't know that or where taught that in school. Also what is your obsession with turnips we don't eat them considering they were horse food.
FlagerantFragerant@reddit
Two minutes ago you didn't know what turnips are and suddenly you do. Lil third world fella is learning 🥺🥺
What else do you know about the world? Have y'all reached a point in your cukture where inbreeding is a no-no? Doesn't sound like it from your comments
HELL5S@reddit
My guy I said we didn't eat them learn reading comprehension, did you go to school because it feels like you're projecting.
Frost787@reddit
His mask fell off real quick, starting to think the Reich never really fell.
HELL5S@reddit
It never really did the Americans allowed them to continue running the show in West Germany. They just switched which minority group to scapegoat.
FlagerantFragerant@reddit
More comments deleted 😂😂
Lil third world guy is so triggered that he can't even get past auto mods. Learn English already 😂
FlagerantFragerant@reddit
Awwww the third world fella has learnt to lie 😱
Can't believe y'all eats tears and coffee while feeding actuall vegetables to horses. Guess we need to come over and teach you some more
HELL5S@reddit
Ya you are incapable of reading comprehension keep going my german lolcow.
HELL5S@reddit
Also the laugh crying emoji's just let me know you're absolutely raging so keep the tears following I enjoy salt.
FlagerantFragerant@reddit
Hahahahaha the Puerto Rican doesn't even know what emojis are for 😂😂😂😂
Now go farm your turnips. You'll cause nearly $3.76 worth of GDP loss if your farm collapses, that would terrible for you lot 😂
HELL5S@reddit
Bro I get it you like Turnips I already said I'll buy you some for when Germany is starving. Also keep them coming
FlagerantFragerant@reddit
You didn't say anything cause most of your comments can't even make it through Reddit auto filters. That's how bad your education system is 😂😂
Imagine a Puerto Rican thinking Europe will starve hahahahah
HELL5S@reddit
You need to improve your rhetorical skills bro you make no sense. Keep them coming its really enjoyable to see you flailing.
FlagerantFragerant@reddit
There we go, your last comment was also deleted 😂😂
Puerto Ricans can't even manage to get past auto filters. That's your place in the world 😂😂😂😂
HELL5S@reddit
I honestly don't care about what gets past autofilters the fact you care this much is peak lolcow.
FlagerantFragerant@reddit
I know y'all care very little, that's why you're still a third world country begging for aid each time it rains. It's genetic, I guess. Hundreds of years of European rule and y'all still can't cope 😂
HELL5S@reddit
What arguments are you even making how does that relate to autofilters. Flordia and the Southern US require aid and assistance everytime a hurricane comes though so your arguments doesn't even make sense.
FlagerantFragerant@reddit
Sie haben das Nutzungslimit Ihres aktuellen Tarifplans für Free AI Language Generator erreicht. Um weiterhin uneingeschränkten Zugriff auf unsere Dienste zu erhalten, empfehlen wir Ihnen, auf den nächsten Tarif umzusteigen.
HELL5S@reddit
Lmao upgrade your plan buddy
FlagerantFragerant@reddit
Let me break it down for you so someone at your poor education leven will understand: go through your comment history and see how many of them have been removed by Reddit auto mods. That where youre at. 😂
HELL5S@reddit
Why would I give a shit if that was the case I honestly don't care its just fun wasting you're time you're just a lolcow to me.
Assassinduck@reddit
Based and correct.
FlagerantFragerant@reddit
Doubling down on the racism while calling other racists 😂😂😂
Do y'all have schools at all?? This is usually how uneducated people, didn't think Puerto Rico was this far behind that y'all can't even see the irony
Frost787@reddit
The rise of the Afd over there must mean your education system is top notch, I'm jealous.
HugsForUpvotes@reddit
Honest question: would you support a Puerto Rican government that tried to win independence through repeatedly starting and losing wars? Assume that San Juan looks like Gaza and tell me that you'd support that.
Even if you're right that Hamas is just in their cause, they are fighting a hopeless war and making a bad situation many times worse.
HELL5S@reddit
Yes I would support any movement or government that defied the American occupation like we did in the 50's.
You would given last time an uprising happened the American government had to resort to bombing the island in order to maintain it's occupation.
HugsForUpvotes@reddit
What would you hope to get out of it? Do you think Puerto Rico can win this hypothetical war?
Because it seems to me like it would just be a death sentence to everyone involved and a lot of people uninvolved.
HELL5S@reddit
Freedom and Dignity
No Puerto Rico alone will not win a war against the US empire, it will however win and be truly free when the proletariat liberated themselves and dismantled the systems of oppression that keep Puerto Rico chained to American capital.
HugsForUpvotes@reddit
Do you believe Hamas has increased Gazan freedom or dignity?
HELL5S@reddit
We’re talking about Puerto Rico dipshit stay on topic. Ask Palestinians that question I don’t speak for them or their views. I would however say the IDF has been the primary party responsible for lowering the freedom and dignity of the people of Gaza.
HugsForUpvotes@reddit
My original question was
My point is even if you view Hamas as justified, their actions have undoubtedly hurt Gazans in the past, present and future. I don't think it's a pro Palestinian perspective to support their dictator government that prioritizes losing wars to governance.
HELL5S@reddit
Ya the primary party responsible for the suffering is the occupation not the resistance to that occupation. Not that your colonialist mindset could ever grasp or understand that given fact.
HugsForUpvotes@reddit
First of all, Israel isn't a colony by definition. Secondly, a lot of the suffering is a direct reaction to the Palestinians failed attempts at "destroying the Zionist state." I agree with you the walls are oppressive, but they also reduced suicide bombings 80%+. What would Palestine look like today if Arafat signed the Camp David Summit? Instead, Arafat rejected it and made no count counter offer. Israelis responded by elected Likud to find alternative solutions when the Israeli Left failed to make peace.
At some point, Gazans need to give up on using a military conquest to beat a much more advanced country. It isn't effective and it just widens the divide. Unfortunately, I don't think Gazans will get another chance due to who we just elected President. They're going to be run off and they're extremely unwelcome in every surrounding country.
HELL5S@reddit
It is a colony it’s a colonial outpost for US imperialism and power projection in the Middle East. I have no interest in debating someone who agrees with putting Palestinians into a concentration camp for the benefit of the settler population, who killed Rabin it certainly was the Palestinians? Enjoy your colonial mindset your empire is in its dying days and Trump is flailing trying to cling on to whatever remains of American hegemony. Gonna be enjoyable watching it collapse.
HugsForUpvotes@reddit
It isn't a colony because they don't answer to the United States. Puerto Rico is a colony, for example. The island is required to follow American Law. Israel has their own laws whereas Puerto Rico cannot pass laws that override Federal American Laws.
I think that's awful and support statehood. My wife is Puerto Rican and we have family on the island. It's a pretty important subject to me.
I doubt either of us will live to see the US collapse, but we're in interesting times so maybe you're right. I do think that if the US "Empire" collapses, you'll see hundreds of millions of the most impoverished and marginalized people die around the world as wars to take our place pop up and our charity stops. I wanted America to leave Syria only for Russia to take the wheel and kill half a million people.
This idea that all the world's problems are American made is just the leftist form of American Exceptionalism.
HELL5S@reddit
Lmao you don’t understand Israeli’s role in the US empire which is the to methods of fascist control on a civilian population (imperial boomerang) as well as a live fire testing zone on a civilian population in the form of Gaza. We don’t want statehood we want independence given everything you have done to the Island don’t pretend to give a shit about us. Also classic white mans burden “charity stops” you don’t know anything it’s honestly pathetic. As for Syria how are your “moderate rebels” doing ever since you finally ousted Assad. Also yes America bad you should look up the Jakarta method and operation condor.
Frost787@reddit
If the US had us in exact same situation, with the same circumstances that Israel has Gaza and the West Bank? Yeah, I believe I would and I bet many other would too for their country and family if they put themselves in the shoes of what Palestinians are going through right now. But our situation with Puerto Rico (geographically, historically and politically) is waaay different to be comparable to be honest.
HELL5S@reddit
Hey their education system is great it teaches them that instead of blaming all of societies problems on Jew's they should instead blame all their societies problems on Muslims and somehow that means that they've really turned a new leaf and should be proud of themselves for reforming from their horrific Nazi past.
FlagerantFragerant@reddit
If you were educated anywhere else apart from Puerto Rico, you'd know how the the political systems here work and how ridiculous your comment even sounds. Lucky for you, you'll never realise 😂😂
ForgetfullRelms@reddit
Resorting to bigoted name calling will solve nothing -_-
FlagerantFragerant@reddit
Tell that to the fella who started it, not me. Wouldn't want you to think you're biased -_-
ForgetfullRelms@reddit
Honestly a fair rebuttal
HELL5S@reddit
Ya pointing out that Germany committed one of the largest genocides and projects of attempted colonization in the history of the world is equivalent somehow the same level of bigotry as saying all Puerto Rican's are stupid because "reasons" (aka we're brown).
FlagerantFragerant@reddit
❣️❣️
Frost787@reddit
I should've keep it more civil, my bad.
Killeroftanks@reddit
so you also believe that israel shouldnt exists, after all they did gain their independence on the actions of terrorist groups, you know that right?
fuck one of israels political group (a small one mind you) is the same terrorist group that was created back in the 1930s, because their original terrorist group wasnt cunty enough to palestinians, and for some fucking reason israel thought giving them a political spot was a good idea and people still support them.
then again they also though allowing hamas to gain power in gaza to split palestinians into two groups so no peace could happen was a good idea for Israel's future... ya israel's politicians arent the brightest bulb in the box if you will.
ForgetfullRelms@reddit
And if the occupation ends with Hamas in power?
Honestly I think when people call for the end of occupation they should start stating what kind of end they are talking about. Because ‘’ending occupation’’ means a dozen different things and everything from ending the blockade to having the majority/entire population of Israel turned into refugees.
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
Ending the occupation would take almost all support from Hamas if done via negotiations. Unfortunately Israel only understands force.
ForgetfullRelms@reddit
If accurate and if Hamas recognizes this (mind you their leaders are millionaires at minimum)- wouldn’t this mean that Hamas would have zero reason to agree to such negotiations?
Sevinki@reddit
Sometimes, actually almost every time, when people decide to go to war and lose, they get expelled from land that was previously theirs. Thats how the world works, how it has always worked and most likely how it will continue to work.
We can argue forever about who started it, who was the first jew to kill a muslim in that area and vice versa, it does not matter anymore. All that matters is that in recent history, Israel has won all of the wars and taken territory, which is a quite normal thing to do historically speaking.
The palestinians can either continue to fight forever or they can accept reality and move on just like basically anyone else has done in the past. Millions of germans were expelled from eastern europe after germany lost ww1 and ww2. Hundreds of thousands of Armenians were just expelled from nagoro karabakh a few years ago, where was the outrage there? Where are the insurgences there? Why are there no german suicide bombers blowing up poland or belarus?
The longer they fight, the less they will have left once all is said and done because every attack gives israel a reason to take more land. Its possible that they lose Gaza now, time will tell.
And before you check my history and call hypocrisy because i support ukraine, let me be clear. If there is peace in ukraine and ukraine has to give up territory, attacking russia again in a few years to try and take it back would be a stupid move, they should also accept their loss, do a population transfer and move on.
Killeroftanks@reddit
ya but since ww2 we tried not to, because we saw what happens when you just let winning powers keep their lands, they generally dont stop until they have all of the lands, or the loser just regains powers and reconquer the lands and tries to take some extra for revenge, and repeat.
the reason the soviets never fully integrated the lands they took outside of kaliningrad was because russia didnt have the population count, and even then when they did integrate kaliningrad, they kinda hard to murder a million germans to do so and forced the rest to relocate to the newly formed east germany, and that still is causing germany problems, then again everything the soviets did is still causing problems.
point being that since ww2 we kinda as a world gave up the idea of keeping lands during wars, because the whole reason we had constant wars between nations was because one side would take some land from a previous war. fuck 80% of the wars between the french and british was because of britain would maintain lands in france.
then we get you fucks to come out of the woodworks trying to defend israels policies which consistently causes wars involving itself. sooner or later you need to admit their one major problem child if everyone around them constantly gets into spats with them.
Frost787@reddit
The problem I have with what you say is that your premise is that this war started in Oct 7, this all started way before. I'd argue way before the 1948 war even. What's happening today is not a war agiants 2 equal nations like Ukraine and Russia. Palestinians do not have an army. This is an ethic cleansing being done by Israel and the Palestinians are resisting. Yeah, before you ask if I condone oct 7 I don't want Israeli civilians to die either.
In the scenarios you mentioned there was plenty of outrage. And all 3 are completely different and I don't see how you can compared them.
In regards to the last statement I also supported Ukraine at first and still support the Ukrainian people, but in recent years it's their government's unwillingness to accept defeat and prevent more deaths and the Azov factions who've lost me.
meister2983@reddit
Hamas is an expansive movement. Occupation means the Zionist entity existing.
I mean, yes, this is true, but Israel isn't going to accept such terms.
They did already physically and I suspect can be made to abandon claims with means far less drastic than outright genocide.
cyberadmin1@reddit
The issue is HAMAS doesn’t have a leg to stand on ethically or strategically. It would behoove HAMAS to release all the captured civilians and let the chips fall where they may. They are not bargaining with captured soldiers or politicians, they are trying to leverage innocent people who have nothing to do with their plight. This is ethically indefensible. If they get what they want by doing that, what does that tell the other terrorist cells who are closely watching?
Fundamentally, when you lose a war. Losers don’t get to dictate the terms of your surrender on equal footing with victor. This is NOT a stalemate, HAMAS and Co were decimated.
Does it suck for HAMAS that they can’t negotiate the way they want to? Yes, and that’s why if you engage in war you better win.
redelastic@reddit
Great lecture on ethics which omitted the mass killing of children by Israel.
I see that ethics are selective.
Who was decimated? The answer is civilians.
Pathetic to frame this in the language of a normal conflict when they are dropping bombs on children in tents.
cyberadmin1@reddit
The Irish flairs are not beating the allegations.
Why does HAMAS not wear uniforms when in combat? Why dont they let civilians into their tunnels when the IDF warns there will be an imminent bombing?
Please answer those questions lad
redelastic@reddit
You literally support child murder.
Look yourself in the mirror lad.
cyberadmin1@reddit
No you
redelastic@reddit
I don't support child murder.
My conscience is clear.
azure_beauty@reddit
The problem is, Hamas did not lose. Yes, they lost militarily. But they still have leverage, because Israelis value the lives of their hostages. And until that bargaining chip is removed, Hamas is not defeated.
cyberadmin1@reddit
Therein lies the problem. If you want something from Israel (or any country that values their people) just take some hostages, then make your demands (bonus points if you ask for a security guarantee), and that country will have to comply.
This is a REALLY bad precedent that HAMAS is trying to set.
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
If Israel valued their people more than they valued hurting Palestinians and stealing their land we wouldn’t be in a situation where there are settlements in the West Bank, a 20 year brutal siege on Gaza and a tendency for Israel to mass murder Palestinian children.
cyberadmin1@reddit
If Israel is so callous and values hurting Palestinians more than saving their people, why is HAMAS taking hostages? Are they just that simple of a people to you, they just don’t know any better?
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
What kind of an argument is that? You can have more than one bad guy in this. Hamas taking hostages doesn’t mean Israel isn’t doing horrendous things.
cyberadmin1@reddit
That was not my claim, SpontaneousStrawman.
If Israel cares more about hurting Palestinians than saving their own people. Why would HAMAS think taking an Israeli hostage would be effective? Do you think Palestinians are just that stupid?
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
You think Hamas aren’t stupid? Well well well. I think they are. And that we’ve learned a lot about Israelis over the last 18 months. Their willingness to commit atrocities seems unrivalled. And many do seem to care very little for the hostages. Israel has killed more than they’ve rescued.
azure_beauty@reddit
I know. It's a lose lose situation for Israel. Which means in a way, Hamas achieved a serious blow. Not that it helped them, but they are a very real enemy, and not one to be underestimated.
wewew47@reddit
Evidently not, because the hostage families wanted the ceasefire to continue as it already would've led to everyone being freed. Netanyahu and the government don't value their lives at all and are resuming the war for political reasons. All they had to do was withdraw from gaza and the hostages would be released.
Various_Builder6478@reddit
The lives of the hostages will be weighed against the lives of the future would be hostages that Hamas had promised to take over and over.
So yea, it’s indeed caring for the citizens.
__-C-__@reddit
They can’t reconcile it, they’ve just picked a side and are too cowardly to accept that they chose the objectively evil one
throwawayyawaworth77@reddit
Please see the last line of my original post
__-C-__@reddit
The last line of your post is irrelevant, cognitive dissonance is the staple of Israel defenders whether or not you care to acknowledge that. There is no reconciliation to be done, these people have simply chosen to believe what they believe and no amount of empirical evidence will change their mind. These are people who believe every single human rights organisation in the world is infiltrated by Hamas. Rationality does not apply here
meister2983@reddit
Obviously the answer is #2 which itself is driven by long term consideration of #1.
The counter argument to this is that without intense reoccupation it is impossible to prevent a Hamas like entity propping up again so #2 isn't worth the cost
ijzerwater@reddit
you think intense reoccupation would suppress violent reaction by the occupied?
meister2983@reddit
Yes. The West Bank is much less militant than Gaza. Occupation allows easy arrest of anyone that is militant
throwawayyawaworth77@reddit
That would indeed be a good counter argument. I’ll give you the other, even simpler one, that “destroying Hamas ” is a slogan, not a practical solution.
meister2983@reddit
Is definitely practical, just Israel doesn't want to do the steps to keep it destroyed
TXDobber@reddit
I support the goals, but I just don’t think they can be achieved via military force, at least not military force that doesn’t involve eviscerating the entire Gaza Strip… and I think Bibi is using this as an excuse to delay and delay and delay his criminal trials in Israeli courts.
wewew47@reddit
To add on to this - the families of the hostages have stated the same exact thing as you - that the best method for returning the hostages is to stick to the ceasefire.
meister2983@reddit
Everyone is aware of that. It's how you weigh trade-offs for future would be hostages
Call_Me_Clark@reddit
in a sane world, Palestinian lives would be valued in the decision
Various_Builder6478@reddit
When even the government of Palestinians don’t care for Palestinian lives, why would/should Israel?
It only cares for its citizens and the security of its state. Lives of Palestinians should be the concern of Hamas to be very honest.
meister2983@reddit
They are, at probably 10000:1 foreigner:local or so. Which is typical for most nations.
wewew47@reddit
Not everyone is. I have had comments from people earlier today saying they didn't know this.
Various_Builder6478@reddit
Destroying Hamas is more important because they have repeatedly said they will keep doing Oct 7th over and over and over. In a cold strategic level the lives of few hostages now is well worth the safety of the Israeli state in the long run.
Second it’s to pressure Hamas to release hostages WITHOUT any conditions (withdrawal from Philadelphi corridor, not releasing convicted terrorists in exchange etc) like it should have been.
There is no contradiction here.
ODHH@reddit
https://xcancel.com/dropsitenews/status/1902384311128510919
If this isn’t genocidal rhetoric I don’t know what is.
The majority of the population of Gaza are literally children. And the populations with the highest death tolls from Israel’s death eater squads are also children.
Sarcasmed@reddit
So that pretty much confirms they never intended to get beyond phase 1 of the ceasefire, ever since the orange turd laid out his Gaza “vision”.
Now being ethnically cleansed is the “carrot” being dangled in front of the Palestinians, with genocide being used as the “stick”.
mittfh@reddit
I wonder how long it will be before they decide that every family even tangentially associated or affiliated with Hamas in the West Bank is targeted for assassination, as they're "terrorist sympathisers"?
(Oh, and anyone else who happens to be nearby will be unavoidable collateral damage - the official line potentially being along the lines of they should have known the political affiliation of their neighbours and moved far away: if they didn't, then they were obviously terrorist sympathisers as well so no great loss).
~oOo~
While Israel has to at least pretend to be interested in a Two State Solution and offer residents at least a token amount of notice of impending air strikes, it could reasonably be argued that they're apathetic at best about the fate of Palestinians (in general, whether they live in Gaza or the West Bank), maybe even negligent (grossly?), and would prefer they disappeared from the land claimed by Israel, one way or another. They can't publicly state it, but they'd very much like sole control of all the land between the Mediterranean and Jordan - and are willing to play the long game to get their wish.
Of course, it also has to be stated that Hamas had an equal but opposite goal, even though their chances of success were virtually nil. The Big Attack was likely at least partially designed to goad Israel into a massive retaliation that would cause massive amounts of property damage and human deaths - something which, on previous occasions, has increased their support and funding (well, technically, increased support and funding for both sides, so allowing the status quo to continue - and I wouldn't be surprised if previous escalations were courtesy of both sides deciding things had been too quiet for too long, so time to wind each other up again).
However, beforehand, several Arab countries were contemplating improving relations with Israel, Hamas was in danger of losing support and becoming irrelevant. So what better way to reverse that than the cruel tactic of effectively inviting the IDF into committing their biggest assault ever on the territory (although it's likely Hamas underestimated the scale of the retaliation).
Heck, the Israeli government likely couldn't have wished for a better gift for promoting their cause than The Big Attack. Either their intelligence didn't pick up on the planning and preparation for it, they underestimated the scale of it, or we start getting into conspiracy theory territory with alternative scenarios.
meister2983@reddit
They've always said Hamas must surrender for phase 2 withdraw. This is consistent with that
waiver@reddit
Kinda ignoring the whole threatening civilians with collective punishment part here.
Various_Builder6478@reddit
It’s not collective punishment when the hostiles blend in with the civilians and use them as goal shields.
Let them come out, wear uniforms (ironically the cowards were wearing their jihad uniforms during a ceasefire and during hostage release) and then you will see military on military war with very minimal civilian casualties.
The civilian casualties is specifically due to Hamas war strategy that intentionally relies on more civilians getting killed so that useful idiots around the world will get suckered in with propaganda.
waiver@reddit
Dude, he is literally threatening people with destruction and they are not allowing food to cross into Gaza, I swear to God they could be walking people into gas chambers and you people would be making dumb excuses about it.
meister2983@reddit
That's not inconsistent either.
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
Yes. To a Zionist killing children seems to be the moral choice.
Virtual-Pension-991@reddit
More of anybody who is familiar with this war after years knows well enough that the ceasefire was merely temporary.
If either Hamas or Netanyahu wanted ceasefire, they'd first be sending delegates to each other's territory.
Not rely on third parties to do the job for them.
meister2983@reddit
> If either Hamas or Netanyahu wanted ceasefire, they'd first be sending delegates to each other's territory.
HUH? Israelis aren't going to make themselves hostages and Hamas isn't going to make themselves prisoners. You don't negotiate this way when you don't recognize each other diplomatically.
Hamas obviously wants a ceasefire, but they aren't willing to agree to Israel's ask which is basically total surrender
Virtual-Pension-991@reddit
Again, read properly before say anything stupid.
But then again, I should've worded it better with Both...and rather than Either...or
Stubbs94@reddit
Any leader of a Palestinian resistance movement or spokesperson that entered Israel would be assassinated or kidnapped.
Virtual-Pension-991@reddit
Read first before you comment anything stupid
More_Net4011@reddit
Netenyahu said as much before the agreement was reached. Smotrich said it too. We gotta believe them when they say their evil shit
waiver@reddit
Since May 2024 they wanted a ceasefire without ceasing fire, Netanyahu has been really open about that.
jaynic1@reddit
Kind of. Israel is like Russia. They both have strong hands in their situations and they both know that hence they aren't willing to compromise. So the negotiations was a sham in the first place because they were never willing to give an inch.
meister2983@reddit
Russia is not anywhere in the relative position of strength as Israel.
In Israel's case, it literally makes no rational sense to negotiate anything besides surrender terms barring hostage releases.
Level_Hour6480@reddit
Fascism is international.
barc0debaby@reddit
Israel and Russia have a long history of friendship and collaboration, so it isn't too surprising.
actsqueeze@reddit
And then claim that they can relocate as a “choice”
waiver@reddit
The Israeli version of "No Child Left Behind" is nasty.
Own_Thing_4364@reddit
Yeah, why can't they just let a terrorist organization exist and plot to murder them?? Clearly GenOciDe!
cap123abc@reddit (OP)
It is clearly ethnic cleansing.
Own_Thing_4364@reddit
Now it's EtHniC ClEanSinG
cap123abc@reddit (OP)
What would you call the proposed forcible expulsion of 2 million people out of Gaza?
Own_Thing_4364@reddit
What do you call Hamas when they say ‘Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it’. An invitation to a party?
some-craic@reddit
well it took them 2 years to plan an attack that Israel pretty much had to do everything in their power to make it as bad as possible to even get to a 10th of the people killed by Israel within 2 weeks.
Also the political division of Gaza and the west bank has served Israel so well that you literally couldn't make me believe that Mossad had nothing to do with it. Your cute little quote probably makes Mossad high five each other.
Look at the unbelievable power the right wing nut jobs in Israel have, stealing American money while their nation has more social benefits than America itself.
Israel is a colonial settler project, Palestinians are semites, if you refer to ancient home of the jews, between the time of the caanites and now muslims have held the land far longer, the christians also held it longer, you have less claim to it. The only reason the world believes you have claim to it is because of Christian Zionism, which is literally fundamental nut jobs.
And no, I am not spending any time providing you any sources, because you are compromised in my eyes as well and not worth my time.
Own_Thing_4364@reddit
Where can I read your 5 star review of the The Protocols of the Elders of Zion?
some-craic@reddit
to me zion was the city in the matrix, 1 movie great but the rest sucked.
Own_Thing_4364@reddit
Awesome, your grasp of history is exactly as expected. Based entirely on movies.
some-craic@reddit
nope, it just ends your attempt of painting me as an anti-semite, remember palestinians are semites, I stand with them all day long, therefore how can I be antisemitic?
Own_Thing_4364@reddit
Things that anti-Semites say to erase Jews. Thanks for exposing yourself!
some-craic@reddit
You are proving with every breath that you aren't worth speaking to. Judaism is bigger than Israel and will exist long after Israel. To me they are not the same. It is the tireless work of hasbara to inextricably link them, only to use the defence that you are uttering now. I do not hate Jews, I am not anti-Semitic, nor am I racist, nor am I Islamophobic, but I dislike you as an individual you might as well have blood on your hands in my eyes.
Iamover18ustupidshit@reddit
I feel like it's just better to block those trolls and move on. They will only parrot their talking points in the same order regardless of what you say.
Own_Thing_4364@reddit
"Everyone I disagree with is Hasbara."
Yup, just keep proving I'm right, ya Nazi sack of shit.
cap123abc@reddit (OP)
I asked a specific question regarding 2 million people in Gaza. Not the thousands Hamas members among them. Feel free to answer the question.
Own_Thing_4364@reddit
What do I call it? An excuse for you jackoffs to condone and support Hamas behevior. There, you happy? So now, what do you call Hamas's declaration to exterminate Jews?
ForgetfullRelms@reddit
Akin to those who propose that all of the Israelis should ‘’go back to Poland’’.
cap123abc@reddit (OP)
Yes that would be ethnic cleansing. I’m glad you understand Israel is ethnically cleansing the Palestinians.
ForgetfullRelms@reddit
I think I would have believed it earlier if there was fewer people who argued that any military action would be ethic cleansing -_-
cap123abc@reddit (OP)
Trump proposed it and Netanyahu has openly supported the expulsion of all Palestinians from Gaza. What more do you need to see?
ForgetfullRelms@reddit
People been making the call form day one.
CwazyCanuck@reddit
By day one, do you mean when Zionists started ethnically cleansing Arab villages in 1947, in preparation for declaring their ethnostate?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_towns_and_villages_depopulated_during_the_1947–1949_Palestine_war
ForgetfullRelms@reddit
By day one I mean October 7th when Israel started to respond to a military attack
Israel wasn’t founded until 1948.
CwazyCanuck@reddit
Well, considering Zionists started ethnically cleansing Palestinians in 1947, and have continued since then, cutting all that history so you can claim day one is Oct 7, is disingenuous.
There is a reason why, according to your idea of “day one”, people have stated it was ethnic cleansing, because it’s been ongoing, with occasional slowdowns and breaks, since 1947.
ForgetfullRelms@reddit
So what is day one?
CwazyCanuck@reddit
You’re the one that started with this “day one” bullshit. The point is that by trying to define a day one as October 7th, you ignore all evidence prior to that that would justify someone making a claim on October 7th that Israel is ethnically cleansing Palestinians.
Israel ethnically cleansed Palestinians between 1947 and 1949, it’s called the Nakba.
Israel ethnically cleansed Palestinians during the 6 day war, that was called the Naksa.
Since 1967, Israel has been ethnically cleansing Palestinians in the West Bank, slowly expelling Palestinians while setting up illegal settlements.
So coming in here and complaining about people calling it ethnic cleansing on “day one” is disingenuous. It was still ongoing.
ForgetfullRelms@reddit
When I stated day one I referred to the first day of the Hamas War as many people are calling it.
I am sorry that neither side of this argument cannot keep their definitions consistent egoft to avoid wrong assumptions regularly regardless of definitions used
cap123abc@reddit (OP)
I would say you need to actually see the expulsion to understand but we already saw millions of Palestinians in Gaza relocated to the “safe zones” and I guess you still don’t believe it. Oh well.
ForgetfullRelms@reddit
Truthfully at the time it made sense and this was after Hezbola started to target civilians on October 8th to ‘’end a genocide’’, and during this period when I asked people what Israel should have done differently at that point I keep getting ‘’no military actions’’ responses.
Stubbs94@reddit
Do you think after Israel kills every member of Hamas and the other resistance groups along with another 100,000 civilians, they'll help rebuild Gaza and allow everyone who left that wants to return, return?
ForgetfullRelms@reddit
Why should they? all we need to do is to give Gaza the normal amount of international aid that Hamas steals and they should be able to fix it.
Or Iran finds some group of terrorists to support instead of Hamas.
Stubbs94@reddit
So once they eliminate all of Hamas... Hamas will still exist and Israel will just refuse to let people back into Gaza or help rebuild it? Makes sense...
ForgetfullRelms@reddit
Truthfully- I don’t know what is the solution.
Try to fix one side and the other side do something that just proves the radicals right, and then you get the screeching supporters making so much noise that people are def when things are actually going down, you have people screaming about ethnic cleansing in one breath and then saying how they want to commit one in the next breath- kinda make you def when the wolf actually comes and howls doesn’t it?
Stubbs94@reddit
Do you think the solution is mass bombing and permanent displacement of Palestinians? Because that's the end goal of Israel in Gaza, and just a less overtly violent ethnic cleansing in the West Bank. The solution must start at ending the ethnic cleansing campaign and the genocide by Israel. The violence of the Palestinians towards Israel is because of that.
ForgetfullRelms@reddit
That’s the START of the solution, but what is next? And who should we blame if Hamas - like in 2005- respond to such starts to a possible peace with violence like with the 2nd uprising.
Stubbs94@reddit
I'm talking about ending the occupation completely, not a return to the previous situation with an occupation of the Palestinian territories. Israel never stopped occupying Palestine.
ForgetfullRelms@reddit
How should Israel respond to Hamas attacks during this hypothetical process?
Stubbs94@reddit
My entire premise was if Israel achieved its goal of killing everyone who had anything to do with Hamas or the Gazan civil service, or anyone who attempted to resist them. If Israel achieved its goals, given their rhetoric during this ongoing "war", do you think they would end the occupation and the brutality of the Palestinians across the occupied territories?
Fermented_Fartblast@reddit
When they say "Go back to Poland", what they really mean is "Go back to the Nazi death camps".
Fantastic-String5820@reddit
Why would you have a problem with that zionazi?
DonutUpset5717@reddit
Clearly you don't. Why are you pretending to be Jewish, very odd.
Fantastic-String5820@reddit
How can someone pretend to be jewish?
DonutUpset5717@reddit
Basically, by not being Jewish but then implying they are. I'm sorry I should have said pretending to be Israeli. We both know you are Irish buddy this is embarrassing.
Fantastic-String5820@reddit
Hang on, are you admitting Israel is an ethnostate?
I thought that was a no-no for you guys
DonutUpset5717@reddit
Yes, Israel is a Jewish ethnostate. I'm anti-zionist, but I'm also not anti-semitic. You should try that out, it's very easy.
Fantastic-String5820@reddit
no thanks
DonutUpset5717@reddit
Well thanks for admitting to being an anti-semite, although it was embarrassingly obvious.
Fantastic-String5820@reddit
I can't be an anti semite I'm king of the jews
ForgetfullRelms@reddit
That’s my point
CwazyCanuck@reddit
You do understand that genocide is one form of ethnic cleansing, right?
Own_Thing_4364@reddit
You do undertand that this isn't genocide, right?
CwazyCanuck@reddit
Based on the UN definition of genocide, it is in fact genocide. If your intent is to ethnically cleanse and you commit genocidal acts to effect that ethnic cleansing, you’ve committed genocide. It’s really quite simple.
Own_Thing_4364@reddit
The UN doesn't make that determination. But, by all means, where did they declare it a genocide?
CwazyCanuck@reddit
Learn to read. I referenced the UN definition of genocide, not that the UN determined it was genocide.
I’m stating of my own accord, based on my own analysis, that Israel is committing genocide based on their intent to ethnically cleanse Palestinians and their use of genocidal acts to effect that ethnic cleansing.
The two conditions for genocide, intent and the acts, are present. Genocide is happening.
Hazer_123@reddit
It isbethnic cleansing. It is genocide.
LEFT4Sp00ning@reddit
least imperialistic american
Own_Thing_4364@reddit
I don't even know what "imperialism" has to do with having an iota of common sense.
LEFT4Sp00ning@reddit
maybe the fact that you're going GeNoCiDe and EtHnIc ClEaNsInG? Were you one of the children Bush left behind?
Own_Thing_4364@reddit
Probably not, since I was actually born long before you were a stain in your dad's underwear. Which would explain why you're regurgitating Tik Tok idiocy. You'd think the younger generations would be more tech literate, but they're even dumber than the dipshit Boomers.
ChefCurryYumYum@reddit
Do you really believe this thing you just wrote? Do you really think the October 7th attack justifies killing and maiming over 100,000 men, women and children?
The destruction of nearly all homes and infrastructure, starving these men, women and children, preventing them from getting adequate access to medicine, food, electricity, this is all very moral and very correct to you?
Collective guilt, collective punishment, this is what you believe in?
Own_Thing_4364@reddit
You're right, that's exactly what I justified. Hey, maybe when the Palestinians repeat the atrocity at a grander scale, maybe you'll be finally convinced.
Oh, that's right. You're HOPING for that.
ChefCurryYumYum@reddit
Are you doing ok?
Stop projecting your blood lust, us well adjusted people don't have it.
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
Will you be ok with Palestinians and pro-Palestinians justifying the same thing? Or is it still one rule for Israel, one rule for everyone else?
Own_Thing_4364@reddit
They already do, so what's your point?
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
They do? Where?
Own_Thing_4364@reddit
I see, so you were born on October 8th.
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
So you have no proof at all?
Own_Thing_4364@reddit
October 7th was the proof, you fucking idiot.
mnmkdc@reddit
Arguing that this is a defensive war at this point is just pure intellectual dishonesty. I doubt you even believe that
Own_Thing_4364@reddit
Speaking of intellectual dishonesty, nice strawman. Where did I argue it was a "defensive war?"
Another graduate of the YouTube University of Rhetoric shows all that they know!
mnmkdc@reddit
Are you not defending this action by saying that Israel is defending itself against terrorism. If that’s not what you mean, you definitely worded your sarcastic comment wrong.
Own_Thing_4364@reddit
Am I defending the actions of continuing a war against a foe who continually threatens their existence? Yes. The fact you're okay with that speaks volumes about you.
mnmkdc@reddit
So they’re doing it to defend themselves but it’s not defensive?
Where did I say I’m okay with the threat of genocide against Jews? I’m not in support of Israel’s actions and I actually think they worsen the threat of genocide against Jews although that’s not actually something that could reasonably happen today. I simply value the lives of Jewish people and Palestinian people equally and with that standard there’s just simply no justification for this.
Own_Thing_4364@reddit
It's just called a "war," maybe you should look into history a bit more.
mnmkdc@reddit
A war with the purpose of defending yourself against an existential threat is a defensive war. Not all wars are like that. “Israel has a right to defend itself” has been one of the most used phrases by proponents of Israel in the last few decades. Surely at the very least you can understand why everyone is interpreting your comment this way.
Where in the history books is it going to say I hate Jews? That seems like a weird inclusion in a book. Could you point out to me why you think I hate Jews? Is it because I said I view them equally to Palestinians and you hate Palestinians?
I feel like as this war has gone on, pro Israel people have gotten worse and worse at defending the situation. People used to try to make actual points before calling someone an antisemite. Now that Israel decided to break a ceasefire you guys just cut right to the chase.
Own_Thing_4364@reddit
Oh, so it is a defensive war for Israel! Thanks for admitting it. Oh, that's right. You've been justifying October 7th this whole time, so to you, it's just those "uppity Jews" daring to fight back.
mnmkdc@reddit
Okay so you are saying it’s a defensive war. It took 3 comments for you to just acknowledge your own words lol. I don’t think Israel is stopping an existential threat. I think they’re possibly worsening it although I don’t think there’s a legitimate threat to them in Gaza. Certainly not one that justifies over 50000 dead and millions in horrible conditions.
Can you quote where I justified 10/7 or said “uppity Jews”? It kinda feels like you’re just giving me preprogrammed responses because you can’t defend your own opinions
Own_Thing_4364@reddit
No, you did.
Yes, what's 1200 people murderd and raped to hateful bigots like you, amirite?
mnmkdc@reddit
You’re doing such a poor job trolling with this. Like I said, I don’t even think you believe what you’re saying. You know I didn’t say that and you know you did imply it was a defensive war.
Alright let’s do this again: quote where I downplayed 10/7 or defended it. That’s all you need to do. I said Israel doesn’t have an existential threat right now and I don’t even think there’s a slight risk of another 10/7 level event happening any time soon and I said is 10/7 doesn’t justify 50000 people at a minimum dead. I never downplayed it, justified it, or whatever else you’ll accuse me. You are simply lying.
Own_Thing_4364@reddit
Yeah, it only took close to 20 years after the withdrawal from Gaza. But I'm sure Israel can trust your personal guarantee and opinion that another one won't occur. Thank you for your service!
mnmkdc@reddit
And now israel has killed at least 40x as many people and likely far more and yet you'll say it isn't genocide. So how is it existential to Israel if Israel isn't an existential threat to gazans? Also if your claim is that hamas hasn't gotten weaker then did they just kill all those people for fun?
Even according to Israel, 10/7 required a major security flaw. It also required Hamas at their full strength, which they aren't even close to now. The threat of another terrorist attack of that size also goes down the more Israel tries to actually move forward with the peace process. The more they terrorize the palestinians, the more likely they will be to join in radical action against Israel. That isn't justification for any murders, but that is how real life works. Its why these massive anti terror wars basically always fail.
Own_Thing_4364@reddit
Oh, is there an exact multiplier that automatically determines what's a genocide or not? Please, enlighten me. And when you present your case to the ICC, be sure to quantify your data.
You're right, because before October 7th, everything was hunky dory. October 7th was just an innocent cry for help! So what's a little murder and rape? Hamas had no CHOICE but to do it!!!
mnmkdc@reddit
No but if you’re going to argue that 10/7 is an existential threat then logically you’d have to hold that logic and then some to the much more brutal response.
No, they weren’t. Israel was oppressing the Palestinians. Ending that is the best way for peace for both parties. Israel just doesn’t want to lose control of the land
Own_Thing_4364@reddit
Boy, you are really one of the most dishonest Hamas simps I've encountered. 10/7 wasn't an existential threat, but a symptom of an existential threat.
Ahhhhh... thank you for outing yourself as either a) A fucking moron or b) a dishonest piece of shit.
The last 70 years is rife with examples to the contrary. the fact you don't know that or completely ignore it says everything.
mnmkdc@reddit
10/7 was by far the biggest attack any Palestinian group has ever pulled off. Israel responded by killing more civilians than every Palestinian group has killed combined. Hamas was not an actual existential threat to Israel. If you truly believe that then you must think Israel is very very weak. Hamas is bad and they threaten a lot of innocent lives. None of their actions justify the level of response Israel has given even if there was no occupier-occupied dynamic. If you cared about innocent lives at all, you'd agree, but you only care about certain ethnicities.
"Israel gave them Gaza" incoming for sure. There's a good reason that they internationally are still recognized as occupiers of gaza. They've effectively annexed the west bank (except when it comes to giving the natives rights, then they are just occupiers of course). They annexed Golan. They only left Lebanon because they were forced to. They've taken space in a Syria that has very clearly said they don't want trouble and won't let Iran use them. More and more of Israel proper is being bought up by a group that only sells to Jews and they've passed legislation to allow cities to ban residents that don't "culturally mesh" with their communities. They've even been entertaining the idea of ethnically cleansing gaza entirely. Even them pulling the troops out of Gaza was, by their own words, to "freeze the peace process." There is not 70 years of counter evidence.
I do appreciate you finally growing up and trying to defend yourself though, although you're still just sticking to the script pretty hard.
Own_Thing_4364@reddit
The fact that the only example you could refer to was in 2005 (and predictably snarky) says everything about your knowledge about this region.
mnmkdc@reddit
Ah, so you stopped reading there huh? Give me some examples then bud
Own_Thing_4364@reddit
I guess your geographic knowledge of the area is so piss poor you never heard of the Sinai Peninsula.
mnmkdc@reddit
I mean I knew they left Sinai but I’m not sure that’s “70 years of counter examples” lol. Sinai was like the least desirable land they’ve occupied and it was the first “concession” (in quotes because the settlements were still illegal to start with) they ever made. They even specifically told Israelis that they would expand West Bank and Gaza settlements to make up for it.
Drab_Majesty@reddit
defending the violation of the Geneva convention... Zionists going mask off, this is a good thing.
Own_Thing_4364@reddit
And can you cite the court case where they came to this verdict?
Better than when Nazi anti-semites like you go mask off.
Drab_Majesty@reddit
There is a reason that Israeli leaders have international arrest warrants, brother.
Calling everyone who doesn't see Palestinians as animals an anti-semite is not going to save you.
Own_Thing_4364@reddit
Interestingly enough, so does Hamas members, but I don't see you cheering for those. Probably because you agree with their intent to kill Jews, "brother."
So pardon me if I don't buy your faux concern about humanity.
Drab_Majesty@reddit
My comment history is easily accessible, my views on Hamas are plain to see and have been consistent. It would seem like most Zionists you have made ignorance a personality trait.
Own_Thing_4364@reddit
Wow, you wrote some pretty words somewhere and it justifies your hatred of jews. What a nice world you must live in.
Drab_Majesty@reddit
I love my Jewish brothers, plenty of love in their heart. A shame you have only hate in yours.
Own_Thing_4364@reddit
Whatever you have to tell yourself to sleep at night.
Drab_Majesty@reddit
Only one of us is spiralling here.
Own_Thing_4364@reddit
Can't you just feel the "love" from this gaslighter here, folks?
Drab_Majesty@reddit
your fellow genocide cheer leaders are in r/worldnews, brother.
Own_Thing_4364@reddit
And your fellow anti-Semites are all around us, Nazi.
actsqueeze@reddit
You clearly implied it was a defensive war against terrorism
Own_Thing_4364@reddit
Nope, that's just your lack of reading comprehension.
Stubbs94@reddit
Mr. Own Thing is the type of person who celebrates the dead children in occupied Palestine.
sonymnms@reddit
It’s because the IDF IS the terrorist organization
DerCatrix@reddit
Ah yes, it’s been so long since we talked about Gaza. I forgot people assume everyone living in Palestine is assumed to be a Hamas agent smuggling nukes.
Teenager? Hamas Grandma? Hamas New born baby? Believe or not, Hamas
LEFT4Sp00ning@reddit
Hamas Granny sounds like some sort of 70's comics weird side villain that is just a slightly tougher goon of, idfk, the green goblin or something. Quick, somebody get Stan Lee's ghost on this!
waiver@reddit
I won't hold it against you that you fail to grasp the existence of alternatives beyond merely 'doing nothing against Hamas' and 'indiscriminately killing civilians.
Own_Thing_4364@reddit
Yeah, Israel should have just said after October 7th "Everything is totes okay, mistakes happen!" God, what a pleasure it must be to be such an ignorant twat.
Fantastic-String5820@reddit
Why not? That's what you expect of palestinians, to just take it.
Own_Thing_4364@reddit
Hey, it's the Irish troll pretending to be Israeli! How goes the bot campaign?
Fantastic-String5820@reddit
You think your anti semitism bothers me? Deny my heritage all you want fatty, I'll still take your american dollars
Own_Thing_4364@reddit
Go pray at the IRA/Hamas mural there in Belfast, tankie.
AnUninformedLLama@reddit
Go pray for Daddy Jesus to bring forth the rapture, evangelitard
Own_Thing_4364@reddit
What makes you think I'm religious, dipshit?
AnUninformedLLama@reddit
It’s a valid guess because no one cucks for Pissrael harder than evangelitards. Those brain-dead lunatics genuinely believe that if their biblical “chosen race” reclaims the “holy land” then daddy Jesus will return and fulfill their unhinged doomsday fetish. Truly deranged people
Own_Thing_4364@reddit
And no one cucks harder for Hamas than tankie anti-Semites like you.
AnUninformedLLama@reddit
Whatever helps you sleep at night evangelitard. No matter how much your dimwitted cult wishes, daddy Jesus won't return to smite the Jews (pretty antisemitic of him if you ask me) and fulfill your biblical doomsday fetishes no matter how much you cuck for Pissrael and the "chosen race".
Fantastic-String5820@reddit
Should you be gearing up to invade Canada Jethro?
P.s. thanks for paying for my healthcare, hope the PTSD isn't too bad 🤣
Own_Thing_4364@reddit
I'm not a MAGA idiot, poser.
Fantastic-String5820@reddit
Whatever you say Jethro, thank you for your loyal support of Israel
Unable_Duck9588@reddit
Damn, you must be such a tough guy…
Look at you acting all bigly and brave on reddit, excusing the murder of children and babies with ‘hamas said they don’t want israel’.
Go to bed you racist little boy.
Call_Me_Clark@reddit
What % of the dead children were terrorists?
Financial-Chicken843@reddit
Why cant israel just stop oppressing palestinians then? If Palestinians had a military that was on par as the idf i assure u they wont need to resort to terrorism
Old-Raspberry9684@reddit
Clearly.
https://www.hrw.org/report/2024/12/19/extermination-and-acts-genocide/israel-deliberately-depriving-palestinians-gaza
Own_Thing_4364@reddit
"On January 26, 2024, the International Court of Justice (ICJ) issued provisional measures that included requiring Israel to prevent genocide against Palestinians in Gaza, enable the provision of basic services and humanitarian assistance, and prevent and punish incitement to commit genocide.[12] The measures were adopted as part of a case brought by South Africa alleging that Israel was violating the Genocide Convention of 1948."
I know you fuckheads never actually read these things, so i ade sure to copy and paste the relevant sections for you. Feel free to read your own sources next time.
Aaron_Hamm@reddit
You really think you've got something here lmao
Own_Thing_4364@reddit
Can't argue with that outstanding rebuttal. It's almost like you know you don't got shit and you're huffing massive amounts of copium. But hey, feel free and prove me wrong with something that isn't pulled out directly from an OPINION.
Zipz@reddit
One of the things I noticed the anti Israel crowd loves to do.
As soon as they don’t have an argument they just start acting like idiots.
Aaron_Hamm@reddit
There's nothing to rebut lol
Old-Raspberry9684@reddit
Is that where you stopped reading?
The very next paragraph:
'Since that time, Israel has violated the ICJ’s measures, including preventing “the deprivation of access to adequate food and water.”[15]'
So that's Genocide, and it has only gotten worse.
The entire report is relevant. You just choose to ignore reality in support of those committing crimes against humanity. Must be a blissful kind of ignorance. Also I love how you immediately resorted to name-calling, very cool and normal.
Own_Thing_4364@reddit
So according to the footnote, this was May of 2024 and solely due to this allegation, that's the basis of your entire case.
Oh wow, we got an international lawyer here who already has concluded a verdict before any trial has started! Tell me, did you get a 178 on your LSATs, because you're going places!
DopeShitBlaster@reddit
You realize that was the justification the Nazis used for the Holocaust…. But sure.
Own_Thing_4364@reddit
And now you're doing the same, justifying Hamas's attack against Jews. I hope you're proud of yourself.
DopeShitBlaster@reddit
Why would I support Hamas? And my family are Jews…. You sound unhinged.
Own_Thing_4364@reddit
Awesome appeal to unverifed authority.
DopeShitBlaster@reddit
Your Hasbara doesn’t make sense. Sent you some talking points to read up on.
https://www.molad.org/images/upload/files/37830581085043.pdf
Own_Thing_4364@reddit
"I'm a fucking lying idiot and when I can't reply with anything intelligent, I just scream HasBara!"
Weird_Point_4262@reddit
They literally threaten the civilian population with destruction in the tweet
Own_Thing_4364@reddit
And Hamas, including Gazan civilians, LITERALLY killed and raped Israelis and other nationals in their homes and streets. Why are you excusing that?
Papa-pumpking@reddit
He literally didn't.
Own_Thing_4364@reddit
What does it matter when every time an Israeli breathes, you assholes scream "GenOCidE!"
Stubbs94@reddit
Mass murdering children children is moral in your twisted mind.
Own_Thing_4364@reddit
Only thing moral in your mind is justifying Hamas's actual genocide campaign against Jews.
Stubbs94@reddit
Is the only logical answer to a resistance group in your mind sniping toddlers?
Spooky-skeleton@reddit
That's all they can do, they flex their muscles fighting women and children, but when it's head vs actual soldiers those zionists get crushed like were by hezbullah on the ground
When ground zionazi invasions (they always do) they go back to air bombing schools and hospitals
ForgetfullRelms@reddit
Like how they were crushed in 1948, or 1967, or 2005, or 2023,…. I am seeing a pattern here unless your arguing that there’s no ‘’actual solders’’ in the Middle East.
Now that would be pretty self bigoted.
Spooky-skeleton@reddit
You are aware that the zionists don't operate in a vacuum but are bankrolled by western imperialist powers vs men in sandals firing bottle rockets right, and still during the last face-off between the genocide army of the ethnostate vs hezbullah, they were being sent back in body bags destroyed every merkava that stepped foot on lebanese soil
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20241127-over-50-israeli-tanks-destroyed-in-lebanon-in-52-days-hezbollah-says/amp/
ForgetfullRelms@reddit
Had anyone verified theses reports? I am trying to do my due diligence- don’t want to believe false reports by the vary same militant organization that would benefit from it.
You know, like with certain hospitals in Gaza.
DanDan1993@reddit
shhh don't let people here know what rhetoric Hamas and Houtis use. they obviously write love poems and agonized messages asking for sorry
Fantastic-String5820@reddit
Wasn't it the Israeli president who said there are no innocents in Gaza?
You mean that kind of rhetoric moshe?
DanDan1993@reddit
I mean you're Israelian so you obviously know the answer, right Connor? Why again are you not using the terminology of OUR president?
NuggetoO@reddit
If that guy is Israeli, I'm the pope.
Fantastic-String5820@reddit
I'm a real Israeli, not like that genocidal Herzog pretending to be middle eastern
Unable_Duck9588@reddit
Conflating support for the palestinian child and innocent with hamas is a move that clearly doesn’t work anymore, but you do you.
DanDan1993@reddit
How did I conflate those things? I can argue you are conflating all Israelis and our government right now, right?
Unable_Duck9588@reddit
I never said anything about Israel.
I know first hand that many many Israelis and Jews that aren’t Israeli don’t support Netanyahu and the government.
Im just pointing out that some Israeli flairs here are making it seem that being against the murder of innocent people is terrorist sympathy.
But I have a feeling you already know that.
DanDan1993@reddit
no, but you assumed about me while mostly getting that information from my flair. so I guess you have some cognitive structure for what you define Israelis, and it kinda conflates with what you think of our government most of the time.
I'm just pointing out how people here continuously talk about our governments rhetoric while Hamas and the Houtis literally do the same. Hamas not committing genocide on Israeli is just a matter of inability.
While I don't support resuming the war nor any actions taken on my government part, this doesn't absolve the part where most of Palestinians support the massacre of Israelis and a two state solution is dead for the time being (courtesy of both our extremists), and people here only see this as some black-and-white situation where one side is right and one side is wrong. Honestly watching the cognitive dissonance of people supporting terrorists here just to bash on Israel is both Interesting and depressing af.
Unable_Duck9588@reddit
I didn’t do any of that but you do you man.
DanDan1993@reddit
good talk bud. go ducks!
Unable_Duck9588@reddit
🦆🦆🦆
Big_Red_Machine_1917@reddit
Yes, it is indeed terrible that a murderous organisation like Likud has been allowed to exist so long.
Own_Thing_4364@reddit
Your username tells me all I need to know about your feelings on Jews in general. Glad my family fled Russia before you kooks took over.
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
“No child left behind alive?”
robotoredux696969@reddit
So the options are:
Various_Builder6478@reddit
But yeah that’s somehow conveniently left off.
cesaroncalves@reddit
That's left off cause it's the same as the 2. Just nicer words that you tell yourself to pretend the genociders you're supporting are anything but.
waiver@reddit
The unarmed population of Gaza "Oh yeah, we will work right on that"
waiver@reddit
You can go to wonderful places like Congo or Somalia!
LividAd9642@reddit
Israel, the US, and the EU bear all the responsibility for this. Sincerely, I can't imagine people supporting this to be anything less than psychos and I include in this the majority of the Israeli population that'd kill them all if possible.
More_Net4011@reddit
Wishful thinking at best.
When has the US ever faced accountability for war crimes or genocide? They are assuredly guilty of both. We dont even refer to the genocide of native americans as such. Its wild
RingSplitter69@reddit
The person you responded to wasn’t arguing for these countries to face accountability but simply that they bear responsibility.
Unable_Duck9588@reddit
They are here in this very thread with their US and Israel flairs.
Frost787@reddit
Only thing I'm glad is that we're in the age of information and these types of videos can be archived easily. After this is all over the propaganda machine they will unleash to clean their image will be unlike anything we've seen before. They will forever be stained by this genocide no matter how how they try to erase history.
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
Nope. Google is not your friend. Neither is Bing. Try to look up a video of an Israeli atrocity from a year ago. Even with all the right keywords it won’t appear in the first results page.
enilea@reddit
What in the world
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
Are we allowed to admit this is pure fucking evil yet? Or are we antisemitic for suggesting that?
TechnicianOk9795@reddit
Where is the European Army? Where is the alliance of will?
I don't want to call this double standard, it's just the the Europe wanted a war with Russia.
meister2983@reddit
Sounds mostly collective punishment. Genocide is "prepare to die and there's no other option"
Still_There3603@reddit
Mods of r/worldnews should face genocide propaganda charges at the ICC if Israel goes through with the forced deportation.
Daryno90@reddit
The Israeli government are Nothing but genocidal bastards who deserve the rope
_MonteCristo_@reddit
If you had to write an example of realistic genocidal language for a textbook or something, that isn't just "we are going to kill this entire ethnic group deliberately because of our ideology mwahaha" - it could be this statement.
aWhiteWildLion@reddit
It seems as if Israel has finally embraced Trump's green light to open the gates of hell upon Gaza. I think we're about to see some massive firepower from Israel and witness Gaza getting flattened like never before. They asked for it.
Iamover18ustupidshit@reddit
I really don't understand how you can type coherently whilst continuously getting bukkake'd by the Zionist shills.
Are you wearing high quality goggles at least?
CwazyCanuck@reddit
Said the bully.
Said the rapist.
Said the genocide supporter.
happycow24@reddit
and I got so much hate for mocking those who thought "Biden and Trump are the same" and voted for Stein. lol, lmao even.
wewew47@reddit
Under which president was gaza flattened?
Under which president were there almost 50k direct deaths, 11k missing, and many tens of thousands of uncounted indirect deaths?
happycow24@reddit
Not what I said.
you're about to see the difference in Biden and Trump's foreign policy; it's about scale.
wewew47@reddit
Genocide is genocide...
The scale of Bidens genocide was near absolute.
Honestly if you're at the point of comparing genocides to try and mock people complaining about Biden then you've completely missed the point.
ForgetfullRelms@reddit
Biden wasn’t trying to end Nato, so there’s that
wewew47@reddit
That's nothing to do with the genocide
ForgetfullRelms@reddit
Ok- Biden didn’t propose the Gaza plan. Tho I must ask you when did it go from a war to a genocide
AnUninformedLLama@reddit
The genocide actually began a long, long time ago once the Zionists launched their colonial expedition into motion
ForgetfullRelms@reddit
Ok, so how far back can we go to justify intergenerational race based blood feuds. Do you think that if the descendants of the Aztecs decide to try to murder the descendants of the Conquerors that the conflict started when Cortez and he’s marry men of murders sack modern day Mexico City- or started at the most recent outbreak of hostilities.
AnUninformedLLama@reddit
If the descendants of the aztecs were still living under continuous occupation to this day, then it would have started with the onset of the occupation even if the Aztecs were responsible for the recent escalation. But the Aztecs did not manage to resist for much long unfortunately as they were successfully genocided unlike the Palestinians who managed to put up a continued resistance
ForgetfullRelms@reddit
Some would probably argue yes.
AnUninformedLLama@reddit
Exactly, and it would be a pretty reasonable argument. Glad we could find common ground and have a good day
happycow24@reddit
yes
You mean Biden's complicity in Netanyahu's campaign of genocide and ethnic cleansing (hasbara come @ me) was near absolute.
Honestly if you're still playing some mental gymnastics about the lack of meaningful difference between Biden and Trump's foreign policy, then you've completely missed the point. But you'll see.
azure_beauty@reddit
Not much left to flatten.
le-o@reddit
There is no bottom to humanity's capacity for malice.
While the life expectancy is incredibly low, all this means is that there are still plenty of children in Gaza left to cleanse, and many creative avenues left for humiliation, debasement, and torture for Israeli society to explore.
azure_beauty@reddit
Live expectancy in Gaza prior to 7/10 was higher than Egypt. Higher than most of the Arab world.
I will be happy to see it one day go back to that reality.
DeathStrike56@reddit
It had gdp literally worse than north korea
70% youth unemployment
No drinkable water
Israel allowing barely above starvation level calories in gaza
Death from preventable disease rampant
But no gaza was a paradise before gazans decided to attack israel for no reason
azure_beauty@reddit
So I guess they just didn't drink?
3,000-3,600 calories PP per day is not "barely above starvation"
Sure. And it needs to be prevented. Like Israel has done by providing millions of polio vaccines the moment it was detected in the strip.
Certainly was a better place than it is now.
DeathStrike56@reddit
Not from local sources which were contaminated by sewage thank to israel bombing
How about 1500-2000
Yeah sure they gave it out of goodness from their heart not because they want to prevent epidemic spreading to israel, however when it comes to non infectious diseases, israel is fine letting gaza hospitals be undersupplied and people having to wait years to get into egypt for medical treatment and many die while waiting
Something less shit is still shit
azure_beauty@reddit
So you admit Israel provided wafer for them. You are also just plain wrong, as Gaza has desalination plants, which if I may add, are also fueled by Israeli electricity, which is provided completely for free.
They could also import it from Egypt, but they stopped paying the bill because Israel was obviously willing to give them more without anything in return.
How about sticking to facts
Polio doesn't infect vaccinated individuals. Nearly everyone in Israel is vaccinated. Do you really think the Jews are so evil that even providing lifesaving medicine has some sort of ulterior motive?
Don't see how that's Israel's fault. Prior to the war, Israel treated gazans for disease which their hospitals were not equipped to deal with. Israel tried setting up a field hospital next to Gaza, but Hamas bombed it. Now they take children to Jordan for medical treatment.
I'd rather something be a third shirt than 200% shit.
Gilamath@reddit
That reality existed within an intolerable context of oppression and suffering.
AnUninformedLLama@reddit
A genocidal azeri psychopath? Color me shocked.
Orange_penguin02@reddit
It's already destroyed
Drab_Majesty@reddit
Number of Palestinian casualties since the ceasefire 400+
Number of Israeli casualties since the ceasefire... 0
The majority of hostages have been released thanks to negotiation. Israel does not care about the hostages, they are just pawns to continue the Zionist colonial adventure.
ODHH@reddit
Hamas hasn’t fired a single rocket or bullet but Israel has been killing Palestinians in Gaza nearly every day.
ForgetfullRelms@reddit
And what was Hamas doing before October 7th?
ijzerwater@reddit
they watched and saw Palestinians being murdered
ForgetfullRelms@reddit
Leaving out some relevant information there.
CwazyCanuck@reddit
https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties
They were preparing for an attack against Israel because it had become abundantly clear that Israel was not interested in peace that included Palestinian self determination.
ForgetfullRelms@reddit
Your leaving out the weapons fire Hamas was preforming before October 7th.
Dose Hamas want a peace that includes Israeli self determination or is such concerns a one way street
CwazyCanuck@reddit
A two state solution by definition would include Israeli self determination. Hamas has pushed for a two state solution multiple times. But Israel refuses to negotiate with Hamas. Because they don’t want a peace that includes Palestinians.
ForgetfullRelms@reddit
Per Hamas own 2017 charter a 1967 2 state solution would not be a end of hostilities but would simply be ‘’Good for now’’. Nice try
CwazyCanuck@reddit
Do you understand that when a peace treaty is signed, all the bullshit before it becomes irrelevant, right?
Like Egypt had said stuff about destroying Israel, and then they signed a peace treaty, and how’s that going?
ForgetfullRelms@reddit
So why was day one before 1948? That peace treaty was in 1967ish (give or take a year). Hamas was created in the 1980’s- Is the end of the 2nd Arab War sometimes relevant, sometimes not relevant?
CwazyCanuck@reddit
The day one topic is from a different conversation.
That peace treaty with Egypt was signed in 1979, and Hamas was founded in 1987, 20 years after Israel started its illegal occupation.
No idea what the 2nd Arab War is. Google suggests it was the 1956 Suez Crisis.
Various_Builder6478@reddit
Yes it means the offensive is working destroying Hamas rocket launching capabilities. Surely you don’t mean a genocidal jihadist death cult suddenly had a change of heart and is abiding by the way of peace and coexistence.
FudgeAtron@reddit
You asked further up in the thread what the logic was for restarting the invasion, hardliners have been saying the point was exactly to show that Hamas is incapable of firing back. In essence to show that Hamas have been strategically defeated.
Not only was Hamas (or any other Palestinian group) able to respond to the strikes, none of the Axis of Resistance (bar the Houthis) responded either. The Houthi response was ineffective and met by American aistrikes and increased Israeli attacks on Gaza.
In effect they are saying to Hamas:
Whether you think this will work is your choice, that is the logic they are using.
RaiJolt2@reddit
Well they have bombed busses, and multiple Hamas members were attacking civilians so no.
Preventing attacks is not the same as not being attacked
ODHH@reddit
None of that happened since the ceasefire.
meister2983@reddit
Israel released thousands of prisoners to get the ones they did get back. Obviously they care to some degree.
CwazyCanuck@reddit
They care about the optics and the protests of the hostages’ families.
meister2983@reddit
Yes, that's how politics works. Prioritizing different stakeholders; we say the country's priorities are the grand sum of internal negotiation.
memester314@reddit
They took alot more palestenians in from the west bank to compensate.
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