Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople says Great Schism ‘not insurmountable’ | Assessment by honorary head of worldwide Orthodoxy follows Pope’s call for a common Easter date, raising Christian hopes for ‘historic breakthrough’
Posted by 1DarkStarryNight@reddit | anime_titties | View on Reddit | 36 comments
Crouteauxpommes@reddit
I love how alt-right fundamentalist Christians are saying that Francis is the worst pope in history and should be killed so he'll rot in hell quicker, but in the meantime he so involved in oecumenism that he may singlehandedly mend the great schism and even reconcile the Lutherans and the Church of England with Rome.
Sea_Lingonberry_4720@reddit
Trad caths are anything but traditional. Just yesterday I saw someone on Twitter say the Old Testament was added to the Bible as Jewish lies, and all I could think was “man, the inquisition would’ve tied him to a pyre for this. They’re inventing heresies I didn’t even think were possible”.
A_Rogue_GAI@reddit
But if they get rid of the old testament they won't have Leviticus, and that's their favorite part of the bible!
Solarwinds-123@reddit
That isn't a tradcath, it's a heretic
Evolvedtyrant@reddit
There's fringe groups in every religion, country, group tbh
JeffJefferson19@reddit
Yeah they hate that
LuoBiDaFaZeWeiDa@reddit
What about the other schism? What about the self-proclaimed "Orthodox Church of Ukraine" and the illegal autocephaly granted by you, Oecumenical Patriarch?
Your words contradict your actions.
FartOfGenius@reddit
Are you an expert in Orthodox canons? What gives you the authority to proclaim the OCU as illegal? The canonical arguments for granting autocephaly have been clearly presented. Meanwhile the Moscow Patriarchate is so blatantly pro-war that it's impossible not to regard it as a mouthpiece of the Russian state.
Glass-Shock5882@reddit
Russian Orthodex has ALWAYS been a stooge of the Kremlin. Stalin tried to remove it, but because people are so full of shit, and their lives are so bad, it required him to bring it back because mass nihilism was negatively effecting the USSR. At that point in time, the full capture of the Russian Church was complete, and they've been merely the theological arm of the Kremlin since then, giving people Hope(TM) instead of taking a good hard look at their actual problems.
LuoBiDaFaZeWeiDa@reddit
The ecclesiastical jurisdiction of Metropolis of Kiev was transferred from the Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople to the Moscow Patriarchate in 1686, which is the point of having autocephalous churches. The Oecumenical Patriarchate is not a pope and has no jurisdiction over Kievan Metropolis in 1700 or in 2016.
FartOfGenius@reddit
The right to ordain Kiev Metropolitans was transferred by oikonomia, the Metropolis was never included in the boundaries of the Moscow Patriarchate
LuoBiDaFaZeWeiDa@reddit
"never included"
The annexation is confirmed and repeated again and again in the 1686 letter. For one example:
"We decree: that the most holy eparchy of Kiev shall be subject to the most holy patriarchal throne of the great and God-saved city of Moscow"
FartOfGenius@reddit
Did the boundaries of the Patriarchate of Moscow expand by this decree, or was it simply that Moscow was given the right to ordain the Metropolitan of Kiev? Also, let's not forget that the OCU was not just formed from the church of Ukraine under the Moscow Patriarchate but also the Kiev Patriarchate and the Autocephalous Orthodox Church
LuoBiDaFaZeWeiDa@reddit
For another example, which will be clear
"and let this Kiev metropolitanate be subject to the most holy patriarchal Moscow throne"
The so-called "Kiev Patriarchate". It illegally broke away in 1992 but that is not what I was talking about in this post. In this case only the false Kiev patriarch is schematic (and could be dealt internally). However, Bartholomew recognising autocephaly is an escalation of the matter so I call him hypocritical.
FartOfGenius@reddit
You don't seem to understand the point about how these decrees came about through oikonomia and didn't involve actual territorial exchange between the two patriarchates, but fine. Your premise that Bartholomew should want to heal the schism is a bit silly given how hawkish Kirill has been about the invasion. It's a good illustration of why ROCOR was created in Soviet times, unfortunately they were fooled by Putin's nationalistic religiosity in the early 2000s.
Command0Dude@reddit
I mean, very simply, the Orthodox church could just start using the correct calendar and they'd immediately be in line with the rest of the christian world on Easter. It's bizarre they're still clinging to the Julian calendar just because the new one is from a Catholics. Even Protestants gave up on that centuries ago.
Still, it's good to see both churches working towards common ground.
AmericanNewt8@reddit
Ultimately Catholic and Orthodox practice have transitioned such that they're essentially compatible over the past century, but the theology remains profoundly different between the two and that gap has only grown. Greater cooperation seems inevitable but ultimately unless the Pope brings the church into line with the East (as a matter of governance, the Patriarch of Constantinople cannot do this, so it would be dependent on an ecumenical council anyway), reconciliation will be impossible.
It's more likely that the Eastern Orthodox come into communion with the Oriental Orthodox (whose disputes may just be odd translation issues?) or the Anglicans (who are a big tent national church, perhaps a little too big for their taste, but in terms of governance and history might fit well).
Belgrave02@reddit
If I recall in the 70’s there was a push for union between the orthodox and anglicans but then something happened with the Anglican’s and scuttled the talks
AmericanNewt8@reddit
It's happened several times.
Weegee_Carbonara@reddit
It doesn't help that the Orthodox Patriach is an active arm of Putins political machine. Actively praising Putin and supporting the war.
AmericanNewt8@reddit
The Russian one is, but while he rules the largest denomination he's nearly split with Constantinople and the other autoencephalus Eastern Orthodox churches.
Weegee_Carbonara@reddit
Ahh alright. Appreciate the info!
BBlasdel@reddit
The 'Patriarch' Kirill of Moscow, the gangster, fancy watch afficionado, and tobacco magnate, is only one of the nine canonical Patriarchs of the Orthodox church. Patriarch Bartholomew, who is quoted here, is not even a little bit the same.
Weegee_Carbonara@reddit
Oh, thank you for the info!
I never knew.
BIG_DICK_MYSTIQUE@reddit
Eastern oriental orthodox churches themselves are divided into a hundred different churches. The world is big, different people have different interpretations, some people want power, you can't expect all to follow some dudes in Europe.
Metrobuss@reddit
Thirst, Thirst for the power never changes...
debasing_the_coinage@reddit
You're saying the date thing is just a filioque?
TearOpenTheVault@reddit
Alright, who let Paradox Interactive get to do the patches for Earth this year. Come on, someone admit it so we know what to brace for when it comes to the next eight months.
LinxESP@reddit
It's not planes crashing, its Josh from Lets Game It Out
TheSamuil@reddit
I can only hope that no comets get sighted
Not_Dav3@reddit
If only we had comet sense...
Solarwinds-123@reddit
Oh Comet, devil's kith and kin
AniTaneen@reddit
That explains the xenophobia faction getting all those votes from immigrants in the United States
frizzykid@reddit
The history of the great schism is really just a giant political power move by the roman church. the actual theological dispute that caused it is pretty ridiculous.
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