National mourning day in Bulgaria over the tragedy in MK where 60 people have died

Let’s not be naive, majority of people outside Reddit echo chamber ( PEACE AND LOVE ALL BALKAN COUNTRIES PEACE RESPECT ) don’t care about this tragedy, some even celebrate it

I think it’s a tragedy that things like this happen, always because of corruption

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_-Event-Horizon-_@reddit

Let’s not be naive, majority of people outside Reddit echo chamber ( PEACE AND LOVE ALL BALKAN COUNTRIES PEACE RESPECT ) don’t care about this tragedy, some even celebrate it

I agree that Reddit is an echo chamber, but in real life most people in my experience are decent. Social media just brings the focus on the extremes, rather than the average people and polarizes society.

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Lgkp@reddit

Yes but Reddit is so extreme in that sense. Majority of people here act as if all Balkan people love/like/atleast tolerate eachother which is simply not true

This subreddit gives foreigners the fakest view ever on Balkan peoples opinions

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XDLMAOROFLXD@reddit

Seems like you're projecting something more than anything

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chaotebg@reddit

From what I've seen most people in Bulgaria do care. People talk about it everywhere I go and are very empathetic. It's all over the news. More than 500 people have donated blood.

I need to say I find the way you dismiss people's genuine outpouring of compassion as naiveté and a Reddit thing a little bit edgy and outputting.

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Lgkp@reddit

I love how you talk like a true redditor.

I need to say I find the way you dismiss people’s genuine outpouring of compassion as naiveté and a Reddit thing a little bit edgy and outputting.

I haven’t dismissed it but it is quite annoying to keep seeing people on this subreddit painting the balkans as some kind of compassionate family that loves eachother. As much as I would like us to not hate eachother it is simply not reality in real life and this subreddit is an echo chamber trying to act as we indeed are okay with eachother and ”that we aren’t so different after all”.

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chaotebg@reddit

But you did dismiss it, it's right there in your comment. I gave you a perspective from my own experience and you still tell me what I've seen is not true. Declaring what reality is, talking about echo chambers and then calling others "true redditors" is just so rich.

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AideSpartak@reddit

There’s news articles from every major Bulgarian media coming out all the time about this and they do get a lot of reactions. Most people do care about what happened, that’s why they are donating blood, sending help, treating patients here and we have a day of mourning.

Also the vast vast majority of people are in support of us helping and see this as a tragedy. There’s some that are idiots and every time we help will say something like “we can’t provide for our own, why are we trying to fix the world” but those people are a minority and they will complain about literally everything. I still haven’t seen a Bulgarian celebrating this, only very few people that think we shouldn’t help because of political issues. They are a very small minority though and are the nationalistic idiots that every country has

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Mysterious_Contact_2@reddit

I which respect you mean? Talking from Albanian perspective or?

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Osstj7737@reddit

Not here. There’s been a massive gathering in front of the embassy of NM to pay respects

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PenguinGenius69@reddit

👍🏻

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Vesko85@reddit

There are very sick people eveywhere, people only who waste air and resourses.

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Zealousideal_Low9994@reddit

I feel like we "hate" each other but every time tragedy happens we drop the hate and go all in to help our neighbours.

I've seen a lot of Greek and Bulgarian comments online showing their support.

Bulgaria and Serbia already sent medical staff to help.

Reminds me of Turkey and Greece every time there's an earthquake.

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31_hierophanto@reddit

Brothers are brothers, no matter how they constantly shit on each other.

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EpicStan123@reddit

Yeah feels like all that hate and saber-rattling is....performative and superficial, like we do it because we're sorta used to it.

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RegionSignificant977@reddit

Hate is very strong word. We have very different opinions on some matters but that's not hate.

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Zealousideal_Low9994@reddit

Hence why I put it in quotation marks.

I feel like the Greece-Macedonia relationship is much more acrid than Bulgaria-Macedonia though.

Nevertheless, I was surprised by the outpouring of grief from Greece online.

Most Macedonians had a similar reaction to the train crash in Greece.

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RegionSignificant977@reddit

Oh, Bulgarian Macedonian relationship are very very complex. My great grandfather was born in Stip. I have relatives there from his siblings. Still we may have very different opinion of our ancestors. Frankly most of Bulgarians don't care. But people like me that know they are related are more sensitive on the matter. That again doesn't mean that we hate them.

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Zealousideal_Low9994@reddit

For what it's worth I'm not a fan of how "history" is taught in Macedonia either.

All the Alexander the Great stuff is cringe copium, and I wish we could just acknowledge that Bulgarians and Macedonians have a common origin that diverged in the 20th century and that most of our national heroes self-identified as Macedonian-Bulgarians.

But balkan nationalism prevents having a reasonable discussion and re-assessment of our history.

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Much_Demand_1907@reddit

The common origin theory is not true. The Macedonians of Tetovo and Kumanovo are much more linguistically, culturally and genetically closer to Serbs in southern Serbia. Macedonians in western Macedonia are just as close (if not closer) genetically to Albanians as Bulgarians or Serbs. The identity of Macedonians in the 19th century was primarily formed by church-affiliation and not an ethno-national affiliation. Most western scholars and visitors to the Balkans in the 19th and early 20th century made clear that the “Bulgarian” “Greek” or “Serbian” labels were political labels—nothing more. The rival propaganda in Macedonia was overwhelming and exhausting.

Even the Macedonians that immigrated to the US in the late 1800s and early 1900s mostly identified differently than Bulgarians. In 1906-1909 Granite City, Illinois, newspapers reported how Macedonians and Bulgarians would brawl with one another; many Macedonians identified as speaking Macedonian even though there was no codified MK language (Vishanoff who came from Salonica in the late 1800s gave sermons in both Macedonian and Bulgarian…his words), the MPO which, although shifted to pro Bulgarian after the Mihajlov takeover, filed their articles of incorporation in 1922 in Indiana stating that Macedonians were their own race and nation. The evidence is endless.

While Macedonians and Bulgarians are closely related, it’s absurd to talk about a common origin because Macedonians and Macedonia were influenced by people and factors differently than Bulgaria—which is natural for all regions and peoples. All of Macedonia’s neighbors can make strong claims to being closer to Macedonians, based on different historical, cultural, linguistic, political, and genetic evidences and claims. It’s even more nuanced when you get to specific regions and villages. You have brothers and cousins split in Tetovo villages between Serb and Macedonia identity like in Lerin/Kostur between Greek and Macedonian and in southeastern Macedonia between Bulgarian and Macedonian. There are many political and social reasons why and how this came to be.

But it’s really unnecessary…to force a common origin story on Macedonians with Bulgarians will only lead to more problems.

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RegionSignificant977@reddit

How do you explain my Stip great grandfather stories then? He was VMRO long before Mihajlov and had to come to Bulgaria when Macedonia became part of Yugoslavia. Explain VMRO engagement in WWI, which was also before Ivan Mihajlov took leading role in the organization.
My other great grandfather is from Drama region in Aegean Macedonia, so it wasn't different there also. His family came to Bulgaria almost at the same time. It wasn't safe for them in Greece.
Also Bulgarian Exarchate emerged after Ottoman Empire conducted plebiscites in areas contested by both Churches. People in those regions explicitly insisted on creation of Bulgarian Church and were among the first ones to do so. In my great grandfather birth town of Stip 100% of the Christians demanded Bulgarian church in that same plebiscite. Before WWI almost all the people that fought for Macedonia independence and you respect as pillars of your country and nation were identifying themselves as Bulgarian. Goce Delchev included. Massive shift in sentiments happened after the WWI when VMRO United stated that Macedonians are different people around 1930 not without influence of Comintern.
And if you think that I dream of uniting Bulgaria with Macedonia you are terribly wrong. I don't think that it will make something other than more problems. Both for us and for you. But you want me to admit that both my great grandfathers were lying to us.

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Much_Demand_1907@reddit

Actually, I’m not asking you to do anything. Your ancestors were probably telling you their truth. And while that truth for many Macedonians at that time meant a Bulgarian affinity or identity, for many other Macedonians it did not. Which is my point—that there are many political and social reasons why Macedonians identified the way they did. We can go to different regions of Macedonia and different villages within those regions to different time periods and find different answers. All these stories are valid. They’re complex but valid.

There are historical events that explain a lot of this. As an example re the churches: Macedonians preferred Bulgarian church over Greek church because the Greeks refused to allow service in Slavic. For political reasons, Serbian church was originally off the table. Many Macedonians preferred service in Bulgarian which they could understand to varying degrees compared to Greek, which they couldn’t understand at all.

Regarding identification, “ethnicity” wasn’t really part of common terminology amongst the commoners. Association was more with church and sometimes nation.

I had a great-great grandfather from my father’s immigrate to the US before 1913: he was listed as Turkish on immigration records, but his brothers as Serbian and Bulgarian respectively. I had two great grandfathers from my mother’s side who immigrated before 1913 and both listed Macedonian. My mother and father are from two different regions.

So yes, our stories are unique. And to suggest that Macedonia and Bulgaria have a common origin based on your story and not my story is just not feasible. Just like there are Macedonians deeply interconnected with Serbs, Greeks, and Albanians throughout centuries of history, the same applies to Macedonians with Bulgarians.

The Macedonian identity is only strengthened every time a neighboring nationalist tries to tell the Macedonians who they are. This in part caused the Macedonians to go down this rabbit hole to ancient history. The irony is that the Macedonian nationhood gained significant traction specifically because Macedonians neighbors were fighting over her. As that stara baba from Bitola said in 1917 in National Geographic: “Neither Bulgar nor Serb; I am Macedonian only and sick of war.”

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RegionSignificant977@reddit

Still for some reason VMRO joined Bulgarian Army during WWI. How do you explain that? And if you want Bulgarians to respect your identity you should respect the fact that Goce Delchev was identifying himself as Bulgarian also. And not only him. You are saying that you are not asking us for anything. Which also isn't true. North Macedonia is recognized as independent country by Bulgaria. But as far as I can remember there are other demands towards Bulgaria. And that's where are the issues and the conflict between my own family history and your claims.

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Much_Demand_1907@reddit

No, not all VMRO joined Bulgarian army. Aleksandrov’s faction—yes. There are political reasons for it.

The identity of Delchev is complicated to understand in modern terms. Actually, the ethnic identity of anyone from 19th century Macedonia (and other Balkan countries for that matter) is complicated because the sense of identity doesn’t equate to today’s sense of identity.

What is Macedonia asking of Bulgaria? As far as I can tell, Macedonians could care less what Bulgarians think about history. Just stop using your veto powers to force some sort of acknowledgment that we share a common language and identity and history.

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RegionSignificant977@reddit

In the Ustav of the VMORO is written that only Bulgarians are accepted in the organization when it was established. There's nothing complicated about that. It's clearly ethnic/national affiliation and Goce Delchev was part of that organization. And as I said, if you want us to respect yours you must respect our identity and ethnic affiliation. A huge role in forming that identity has this man, and ironically he was born in Pirin Macedonia. Many generations earlier than the end of 19th century.
The Veto has nothing to do with language and identity and history. The veto is because you deny to add Bulgarians in your Constitution. It was clearly stated today by Thomas Weiz, that you will start admission process immediately after adding Bulgarians to your constitution. Veto is no longer present. There will be no longer voting for you to start the negotiations. The process will just start. And that process alone will have impact on your country and your statehood because your Parliament has to do a lot of work in terms of legislation which hopefully will help that tragedies such as that at Kochani wouldn't happen again. But maybe your politicians aren't so keen about that and blame Bulgaria. Again, I'm not talking for full membership. Even starting the negotiation process will have impact on your country.
And yes, not all VMRO fractions joined Bulgarian Army during WWI, just the main one, approximately 80%.

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Much_Demand_1907@reddit

So now you want to argue history? A rabbit hole. Perhaps Macedonians should be in the Bulgarian constitution?

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RegionSignificant977@reddit

There are no list of ethnicities in Bulgarian Constitution and we Bulgarians are not special. Maybe we should add Macedonians only. There are a lot of people in Bulgaria like me that wouldn't be offended if someone call them Macedonian.
Unlike in yours that there are some ethnicities listed, and for some reason Bulgarians aren't there even if there are many people in Bulgaria that would admit our common history, and basically all the people that fought for Macedonia independence were identifying as Bulgarian.
You are denying me of my family history demanding that your version is one and only and explaining how the identity of Delchev was complicated, that's why he wasn't Bulgarian. As my both great grandfathers that felt the same way. Both from Aegean Macedonia and Vardar Macedonia. When they moved to Pirin Macedonia and started family with locals that also felt the same way. You even don't realize that it affects a lot of Bulgarians personally. We've been told that our ancestors were uneducated. And even worse things. Well, Goce Delchev was educated enough. Hristo Tatarchev also.
And the most important thing is that there's no Veto from Bulgaria, and it's everything is up to your government. That clearly don't want to be part of EU. Your governments are constantly provoking Bulgaria to be able to blame their failure to Bulgaria. Maybe we should make the historians all over the world to admit that Tzar Samuil was Macedonian.
You were much better of in 2000 than Albania, now they are better than you and Bulgaria doesn't have nothing to do with that.

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RegionSignificant977@reddit

Seems like awesome foundation to build much better future relationship. I don't think that there are many people in Bulgaria that want more than that.

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Rich-Adhesiveness137@reddit

The only difference between Greece and NMK is the name. Nothing else. With Bulgaria is much more serious because Bulgaria considers the people of NMK to be Bulgarians.

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movierevision@reddit

People are kind and have a good heart. Governments globally don't represent the feelings of most people faithfully.

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Aggressive_Limit2448@reddit (OP)

Hopefully if MK continues to join EU which will be hard anyway the relations will get better. So I wouldn't say it's like Greece and Turkiye.

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Zealousideal_Low9994@reddit

I'm no expert on Greece-Turkey relations.

But it was my impression that they have a generally hostile relationship that is ignored when tragedies happen.

I could be wrong, but that's the impression I have.

But yeah, hopefully MK joins the EU someday and we can normalise our relationships with our neighbours.

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31_hierophanto@reddit

Pure class. Hats off to you, Bulgaria.

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SilentMadge7@reddit

I'm so sad this happened. Sending all the love from Greece. Fuck politics

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heyons@reddit

❤️❤️❤️

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livebeforeidie9@reddit

Thank you neighbors. I hate how a few people in politics can spark the impression that countries hate each other. God bless you all.

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Aggressive_Limit2448@reddit (OP)

Stay strong.

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Vivid_Barracuda_@reddit

Meanwhile the "brotherly" people, Russians, haven't made one sentence through their foreign ministry.

Ungrateful sour bastards.

Thank you Bulgaria. Let's hope we can work together on these things not happening ever again, and being more stronger here, not allow some power-fuelled blind heretics divide and conquer us here and laugh from above.

<3

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Constant-Twist530@reddit

Not spreading hate between each other for a change, love it.

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Aggressive_Limit2448@reddit (OP)

Hopefully a catalyst for change but we will see.