The Rise and Fall of Cyrix: How Quake Destroyed a CPU Brand
Posted by theSiliconSiren@reddit | vintagecomputing | View on Reddit | 43 comments
Posted by theSiliconSiren@reddit | vintagecomputing | View on Reddit | 43 comments
koolkitty89@reddit
The National Semiconductor merger with Cyrix was the real beginning of the end, management changes, massive emphasis on the Media GX embedded/integrated processor (innovative but ahead of its time and off the mainstream, orthodox desktop processor performance niche Cyrix had carved) and bloat with over-expansion and over-investment in areas outside of strictly useful engineering (that could go to market) akin to several other major examples during the late 90s tech boom.
Quake didn't kill them though, Quake did make things hard for AMD, but at least the K6-2 kept clocking higher and then the Athlon came (though actually doesn't do that well on Quake 1 benchmarks relative to its clock rate ... Quake II does much better, quake 1 is really weird). But Cyrix engineering seemed to trail off and get divided over the wrong priorities, and the 6x86 MX (or M2, or MII) didn't scale as well in clock speed as the K6 (which only lagged behind the Celeron/PIII a bit, and had the advantage of faster FSB + decent L1 cache size + potentially large board level L2 cache to out-scale the Celeron at higher clock rates ... if using the official 66 Mhz Celeron bus speed, though for FPU-bound games, or even some just raw FPU+ALU computation/logic bound games or software, the celeron's I/O bottlneck didn't show as poorly: say, maybe for a game like Outcast, that was very P2/III/Celeron optimized and not in the MMX optimized context that the Unreal engine was: Unreal's software renderer is super MMX heavy, so the fast MMX unit on the K6-2 and PII or PIII or Celeron all do well, the SSE and 3DNOW! instructions don't matter ... and the Pentium MMX and Cyrix MX/MII do OK and not too far apart at similar clock speeds, unlike with Quake, similar PR speeds is another matter: and vanilla Pentium or 6x86L/Classic are MUCH slower and a bit buggy in Unreal ... software renderer wise)
OTOH, if Cyrix had managed to engineer a quirky P5 Pentium-like FPU (like apparently the Winchip team did with the Winchip 2), so not just a fast FPU, but one putting unusual emphasis into the Quake Engine's exploits (very quickly and immediately after the game hit the market ... so working on such when it had been in publicity releases and beta), it might have been a saving grace even with the poor clock rates and management problems, but even so, the latter was the real problem, and why Cyrix couldn't maintain the edge they had on office/business/mainstream (non-gaming) computing performance, and even decent multimedia performance. (though with DVD drivers and some other multimedia stuff not leveraging MMX as heavily as expected, and 3DNOW! floating point SIMD or SSE being more appealing, Cyrix's lagging to implement 3DNOW also hurt them on the non-gaming multimedia end ... even the Winchip 2 managed to get that down, though it was a dead end in terms of clock rate scaling, and no overclock potential via higher voltage unless you modified your motherboard to go over 3.5V assuming the chips weren't at their very limit already)
OTOH, Cyrix did quite oddly avoid the 100 MHz bus speed and stick to the unpopular (and difficult to find stable motherboards for: or rather, motherboards + peripheral bus speed combos that were stable). A 2x100 MHz part would've probably proven to help quite a lot in getting back near the top of price to performance to general purpose/office computing (around the same time they released the 3x66 and 2.5x83 MHz models). It probably wouldn't have gotten them back on top of that niche, but it might have bought a little more time. (and they HAD briefly had the fastest x86 CPU in the world across a number of significant benchmarks, with the original release of the 150 MHz 2x75 6x86 PR-200, including pitting it against the Pentium Pro at 200 MHz, including some of the 32-bit office/productivity and multitasking benchmarks, not just the mix of windows + 16-bit DOS multitasking shell environment benchmarks the 6x86 was always especially good at) OTOH, that was also fastest officially rated CPU in the world, and Cyrix was pushing their chips hard into grades that might be seen as overclocking by Intel standards, perhaps not by AMD standards given the K5. (though the early K5 or "5K86" has an interesting, undocumented 1x multiplier mode that makes the lowly 75 MHz model quite interesting at 1x75 rather than 1.5x 50 MHz, or the 90 MHz model at 1x83, 90, 95, or 100, though 83 would be the top one for the time, and an overclock setting, not standard rating ... yet ... and you could probably get the 75 MHz model at 80 MHz if a mobo supported 80: plus PCI was happier at 40 than >41 Mhz, or many PCI cards were, rather)
koolkitty89@reddit
Failing to continue servicing the 486 budget market (upgrade and just fast late gen Socket 3 motherboards) might've been another mistake, perhaps not compared to focusing purely on the 6x86 and Socket 5/7+, but compared to the direction they went with the Media GX. (it used a derivative of the 5x86 core used on 486 platforms, but limited to a proprietary embedded systems platform ... so if they'd gone the other direction, with a die-shrunk + enhanced + bigger cache 5x86 in the Socket 3 compatible package and put the neat embedded stuff into an in-house 486 chipset instead, like a high performance, highly integrated northbridge rather than putting much of that inside the CPU, all while also having a Socket 3 compatible CPU that could be sold to use in existing 486 boards: namely UMC and SiS at that point, as far as good/fast late 90s 486 boards: VIA and ALI ones were rarer with them moving up-market, and OPTI boards were kind of crap; UMC and SIS ones were fast and often had undocumented 60 and 66 MHz bus speed options and 1/2 PCI dividers ... or if you were ony using PCI for video and had a PCI-66 capable card, just leave it at 66 for 1xAGP-like performance, say with a Voodoo Banshee PCI, though a number of ATI, cheap SiS, and a few others will run 66 PCI without issues: S3 Trio32 will too, oddly, though the Trio64 and Virge get corrupted 256 color palettes at 50+ MHz PCI, though highcolor/truecolor work OK from what I've seen, so it's a CLUT interface/corruption problem ... oh and Matrox Millenium and Mystique work fine at 66 and are VERY fast for VGA/SVGA/VESA mode software renderer use, as is the Voodoo Banshee and 3 ... all about dead even at top end 2D acceleration or unaccelerated but fast video bus performance, including unchained/Mode X VGA stuff like Quake uses, or ... I'm not 100% sure 320x200 Quake uses it, but all the other vanilla-VGA compatible modes from 320x240 to 360x200 up to 360x480 all have to use unchained/planar/ModeX; Doom uses unchained mode at 320x200, but Heretic opted out of that for better speed, so I'm not sure what Quake did)
_-Kr4t0s-_@reddit
Um.. that’s only the preamble to the whole story. A company called Via bought them (Via used to make chipsets during the 486/Pentium era) and released some more CPUs under the Cyrix brand. They eventually started making x86 platforms that were tailored to the embedded / industrial / low-power market. They invested the Pico-ITX standard and had computers like the Artigo A1000 which could fit into a 5-1/4” drive bay, long before Raspberry Pi’s and Mini PCs were done by anyone else.
They’re still in business today.
Intel never licensed anyone else to produce x86-compatible processors and they certainly didn’t want to let that license go to waste.
koolkitty89@reddit
Via was one of the dominant (if not the dominant) 3rd party PC chipset manufacturer out there well up into the Pentium 4, Athlon XP, and at least into the Althon 64 era (and they had good chipsets before Intel had any really decent ones, ie in the 486 era). ALI/Acer and VIA were the two biggest Taiwanese chipset makers around, though there were other notable ones ... some that are more notable now than VIA is (like MSI/Microstar). This was LONG before AMD was making their own chipsets to any significant degree. (there was one VIA chipset they rebranded as their own, too, but the first really notable AMD chipset was their multiprocessor capable one for Athlon) Nvidia was a brand new company in the mid 90s, but also became a big player in high performance chipsets with both the Pentium 4 and Athlon (and the original XBox)
VIA didn't buy Cyrix until after the company was effectively dead, gutted, and mismanaged to oblivion (completely unrelated to quake, highly related to National Semiconductor's acquisition and an obcession with the Media GX system on a chip design ... which may have been ahead of its time, but didn't do a lot of good for Cyrix while they still existed) And NS specifics aside, Cyrix management almost certainly ran into the bloat and spend+expand more ... engineer/do less that several companies did in the mid/late 90s overlapping with the dot-com tech bubble, but not one in the same per se. (S3 ran into this problem big time)
AMD ended up buying the rights to the Media GX line and spun it off into their Geode line, continuing to use the Cyrix core design for some time at higher and higher clock speeds and some architecture (or multimedia instruction) advances before switching to an Athlon derived core much later on. (I think the Cyrix 5x86 derived core in the Media GX topped out at something like 600 or 700 MHz way down the line)
VIA also bought out the Centaur/Winchip design/company (fabless like Cyrix, IDT made their chips) at the same time as Cyrix and looked at both the improved Cyrix-made desktop CPU (code name Cayenne or Jalepeno or something, and the Winchip III, and while the Cyrix part actually performed better, it used a significantly larger die and ran at a slower clock speed vs the Winchip III which had poor (486-like) per-clock performance but could simply be clock rated, no PR rating ... ignore the fact that it's WAAAAY slower than its clock rate for many things. (it was something like 400-500 MHz range roadmap for the Cyrix, and 500-750 MHz for the Winchip) So they went with the Winchip, but brinded it the VIA Cyrix III just to be confusing, and kept that line going for quite a long time, into the GHz range, but (outside of some office applications/desktop stuff that's entirely I/O bound and benefits from the decently fast front end and OK cache size or ... Celeron-ish for the time), it was really slow, like well under 1/2 the speed of budget competition at the same clock rate at the same time for games. (and way, WAY worse clock for clock at running original Quake than even the Winchip 1 ... for some reason; supposedly they ran the FPU at 1/2 speed, but models claiming to have a "full speed" FPU still performed like that, until a heavy redesign late in the series, well into the early 2000s) Weird given the Winchip II actually ran Quake pretty well (managed to somehow do mimic P5 pentium-like oddly specific performance quirks that magazines back in the day just called "pipelining" ... even though the K5 and all Cyrix FPUs were pipelined: the K5's was fast too, faster than the pentium one at some things, but not Quake-quirk-compliant, while the Cyrix one ... fast up through 486 standards)
koolkitty89@reddit
Cyrix MII officially released models topped out at 300 MHz 2.2V model, though very rare, the 250, 262, 266 MHz models of 2.9 and 2.2V flavors were fairly common around 1998/1999 and the uncommon but not crazy rare 291 MHz PR 400. (they did take oddly long to embrace the relatively standard 100 Mhz Super Socket 7 bus speed, which also tended to have fewer problems than the 83 MHz speed or even 75 MHz, and easier to find proper motherboards to configure reliably, the 2.5x 100 model didn't come until 98 or 99, but a 2x100 model should've been on the table long before that; granted, you could set them to such speeds unofficially and they'd probably work ... though the older 6x86L or classic doesn't like 100 MHz FSB, I have several that run at 3x68 fine, but not 2x100, and yes 68, ie 204 MHz)
But many of the 2.9V models were made on 250 nm process and will undervolt a lot at stock speeds (I have a PR 366 2.5x100 model that's happy at 2.2V) while also taking overvolting like crazy (like 3.3V or possibly 3.5V without issue, though the WInchip2 is the same and also 250 nm, but node size doesn't really tell you tolerances alone given other manufacturing differences, like metal inteconnect layer and other things). AMD's 250 nm chips will instantly pop above 3.3V and often die if overclocked at 2.8V for long periods. (they tend to be OK up to 2.6V, but that's a pretty hard limit: it's often what was used to push K6-2 550s to 600 MHz) That 250 MHz rated "PR366" (which would be more realistically a 350 if compared to a K6-2 on general purpose office benchmarks) effortlessly runs at 300 MHz if actually set to the rated 2.9V ... I think I had it above that at some point for some benchmarks. (was playing around with lots of retro PC stuff about 15 years ago) OTOH certain other motherboards aren't nearly as happy with that same CPU, though I can't be sure with age/wear/tear vs just board or chipset quirks. (VIA chipsets are supposed to benchmark better with Cyrix parts, but the one I ran the most was an ALI Aladdin V based Asus P5A-B board)
Realistically, the ghetto build budget gaming tweak option for Socket 7 was pretty much ... get a Pentium MMX 233, run it at 2x100 on a Super 7 board, and possibly overvolt it to 3.3, maybe 3.5V and go for 300. (they rarely do more than 300, but do tolerate 3.5V ... they're Intel 350 nm parts, and the rare mobile 250 nm ones with 4x multipliers are weird and tend to not work right with anything but Intel TX chipsets, though there's also a very rare 350 nm 2.2 or 2.5V rated mobile 233 MHz version that probably overclocks well). In any case, good for software rendered quake, good for 3D accelerator FPU requirements, pretty good at MMX performance (K6, or at least K6-2 is better at same clock speed: K6-2 improved MMX execution on top of adding 3DNOW!), though MMX only matters for Unreal's software renderer ... so the Pentium MMX at 300 MHz is probably going to be better with a Voodoo card too. (maybe even next to a K6-2/500 or K6-III/450, though 3DNOW! drivers for Direct3D would probably change that, I forget if any 3DNOW! patches for Glide or miniGL wrappers were any good at all, I know the one for Quake didn't really work well enough to fully close the gap, well ... maybe for 500 vs 300 Mhz, but still)
I will say that playing Unreal with a Voodoo 3 at 1024x768 on a K6-2 300, and Cyrix MII and Pentium MMX both overclocked to 3x100 MHz, the difference in average and minimum framerate (without using a frame counter) was not immediately obvious, or at least not dramatic. (software rendering speed with all at same clock and bus speed also wasn't that dramatic)
Heh, you know Quake II ALMOST got MMX optimized, but Carmack opted out of that and focused on Pentium Pro optimized code instead (which still ran well on the P5 Pentium family), but had he gone that direction, it would've had bigger implications for Cyrix and AMD, albeit more for casual gamers not willing to shell out for a 3D accelerator. (or specifically, any one with useable OpenGL drivers, even beta ones ... obviously 3D FX was the best at the time, but I recall some of the beta drivers available for ATi Rage Pro actually did relatively better than the Nvidia Riva, though the latter was usually faster in DirectX; the Ati Rage forums back in the day and ATi's webstite had a lot more obscure tweak happy stuff that's either gone or really hard to track down these days: they had beta DVD media player drivers too at one point that worked quite well on our K6-2 300 rig, but probably nearly impossible to find anywhere now, and even then, my Dad had to patch together bits of several different versions of the software to make it work reliably ... and that lasted until we upgraded from Windows 98SE to 2000)
kriebz@reddit
Not to take credit from Via for literally launching the still thriving mini-ITX wave, but AMD had the Geode and Intel had embedded CPUs as well as buying in the StrongArm as an SBC option. But yeah, neither appeared anywhere significant as retail computers.
_ragegun@reddit
interestingly the via platofm is actually a very good way to play retro PC games today.
LordSesshomaru82@reddit
Indeed. I've got an old board from a Supermicro server. It has USB HDD emulation cooked into the BIOS. Has a passively cooled 1 GHz Nehemiah core.
_ragegun@reddit
Yep, you'll get enough grunt to play 98 well into the early 2000s and usually in a relatively tiny package
valthonis_surion@reddit
If you can get an Ezra-T chip at 1ghz it’s around P3 550 performance. But the nice thing is between cache disabling (L1/L2) and multiplier adjustment you can easily get 386/486 and early Pentium performance. For those pesky retro games that don’t like fast CPUs.
Autoexec_bat@reddit
Blast from the past. My dad and I specced out a Cyrix machine in the early days that the chips were available as a suggestion from the strip mall PC vendor we were using. Saved us $100 or so compared to the Pentium II we were probably considering at the time. I also had one of those Artigo machines running Windows 98 or XP and it's sole purpose in life was to connect to my Slingbox and serve as a kitchen TV. It was barely up to the task. Thanks for the memories though!
kester76a@reddit
My brother had a P75 and I built a system with a Cyrix 5x86 CPU. The Cyrix definitely ran faster with quake. I can't remember if this was due to faking a FPU or cache though. I didn't think quake ran well until I bought a voodoo card, that 1st 3dfx card was something to behold back then.
I remember the first time I saw one in the flesh was at my friend Vlad's house. He had bought one as he had got fed up with me talking about how much better it was than his original matrox mystique card. This is back when you got a hardware locked version of mechwarrior 2 with practically every GPU. He was pretty much blown away by the difference.
IQueryVisiC@reddit
Matrox is for CAD. You get 3d in clear HD.
MWink64@reddit
I remember an ad for the Cyrix 6x86 that was just flagrant false advertising. It claimed that "lower is better" on the benchmarks, when it was blatantly obvious the opposite was true.
theSiliconSiren@reddit (OP)
I feel like I remember some of these ads. Pretty sure I have a few magazines I could scan them from. I’ll try to look soon!
MWink64@reddit
I'm pretty sure I have a scan of it somewhere. I know it was for the models that competed with the Pentium 166-233 MMX.
mgmorden@reddit
I had several of those back in the day. When I replaced my Intel 486 20Mhz system I went to a Cyrix 5x86 100Mhz. Then after that a Cyrix 6x86 P-200. It eventually was damaged when the heatsink came off it and I replaced it with an even more obscure IDT Winchip :).
Sciby@reddit
I had a 6x86L PR200+ - great bang-for-buck chips. I got lucky with mine as it would overclock from 150 to 200mhz without complaint or voltage fettling. I was a broke student though, so I didn't let it run like that normally.
theSiliconSiren@reddit (OP)
Ah, the Winchip 😅
They definitely weren't bad for all use cases. In general, I think the price to performance ratio was pretty darn good. Some people just didn't know exactly what they were buying...
scots@reddit
C'mon, cover the IBM 386SLC "Blue Lightning 386 processor that ran so goddamned hot you could fry an egg on it
Calm-Station-649@reddit
I remember Cyrix. Cyrix certainly did have its haters, but I don't recall having a problem playing Quake with my Cyrix system. Although I was always partial to Age of Empires, Dune II and Red Alert from Westwood Studios, and Starcraft, and Warcraft from Blizzard during the mid and late 90s, so maybe that played a part. My Cyrix replaced my 486slc2 with VLB and I think my Cyrix was replaced with an Abit Bx6 and celeron 300A OC combo. God I miss the old days of reading a Computer Shopper, and Maximum PC and or course Anandtech and Toms Hardware. Maybe I forgot a few.
prosper_0@reddit
I had a cyrix system. And an K6 system. And an intel system. All right around the 'PR200' zone. Overall, the cyrix was hot, and slowest of the bunch. The K6 was quite nice at everything short of Quake and games that needed an FPU, but it paired well with a Voodoo card. The intel was a good general purpose system. Where AMD and Cyrix ruled was in dollars-per-performance. If you had a fixed budget of (say) $2000, then the absolute fastest system you could build would absolutely have been AMD or Cyrix.
stromm@reddit
Chris wasn’t destroyed by Quake. It was destroyed by investors who bought low in massive stock quantities and then because of all those fly by night Investment Brokers, sold high all at the same time.
When that happens, the stock value crashes.
RetinaJunkie@reddit
Interesting. All I remembered was they where cheaper and everywhere, then gone just as fast
_ragegun@reddit
honestly, they weren't even that bad at running Quake. By the time I had a PR200, the performance differential wasn't too shabby at all.
An Intel might have done it *quicker*, but it was fast enough to be playable.
giantsparklerobot@reddit
Cyrix's problem was Quake's performance was just one of many small issues start started with the 5x86. The 5x86 was a pretty good upgrade for an existing 486 PC so long as the board was compatible. Even when a Cyrix would work fine it needed a bunch of configuration registers set to enable its more advanced features that let it perform like a Pentium (branch prediction etc.). Not all BIOS supported that configuration at boot so you needed to run utilities to enable them at start up. Then some software needed patches to work right on the 5x86 and 6x86. There was a lot of homework required vs a (much more expensive) Pentium Overdrive.
These little problems gave Cyrix chips an undeserved reputation for being incompatible or worse performers than advertised. The actual poorly performing FPU didn't help as by 1995 more and more software was relying on FP math as x87 hardware was finally common.
aToyRobot@reddit
I remember going out to one of our local computer fairs back in the 90s and excitedly picking up a Cyrix 686.
I got home and installed it and everything was faster than it used to be before, Quake included, so I was very happy. It was quite a significant clock speed bump IIRC, so any Cyrix penalty was probably pretty insignificant, and it was much more affordable than the Intel equivalent. We weren't rich, you know!
theSiliconSiren@reddit (OP)
A pretty good summary 😅
os12@reddit
LOL, I had a machine with a Cyrix CPU in the 90s.
geforce2187@reddit
As a kid, my second computer had a 300 MHz Cyrix CPU
ravensholt@reddit
You're a little too late , the story has already been told a few times...
I highly recommend watching the following...
QUAKED: The Cyrix MediaGX and the Rise and Fall of Cyrix Corporation by RetroTechBytes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIh3gOSfkhI
What Happened to Cyrix Processors? | Nostalgia Nerd
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWGAdoMz1c0
Quake, Floating Point, and the Intel Pentium by RTL Engineering
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWVhIvZlytc
Frankly speaking, it's a very well known story. I'd be surprised to find anyone who didn't know this already.
Next you'll be telling the story about how either Doom or Wolfenstein killed the Amiga, right?
In that case, you can go and "get inspired by" Ahoy! or Modern Vintage Gamer
theSiliconSiren@reddit (OP)
Did you comment on each of their videos telling them they were late because there was at least another video out there?
Virtually every story in the world has been told countless times over. I wanted to do a shorter summary that still provided a decent bit of detail. Short attention spans and all.
Anyhow, I agree that these are all great videos 👏
theSiliconSiren@reddit (OP)
Did you comment on each of their videos telling them they were late because there was at least another video out there?
Virtually every story in the world has been told countless times over. I wanted to do a shorter summary that still provided a decent bit of detail. Short attention spans and all.
Anyhow, I agree that these are all great videos 👏
HobartTasmania@reddit
Not sure what windows versions the 586 chip was compatible with but NT 4.0 wasn't one of them for me as the install procedure crashed every time with the same weird error.
Kaldek@reddit
Hoo boy, I read the comments on the video. Why did I read the comments.
But hey, if it gets clicks from thirsty folks, I guess that's a...win?
Also, props to your OF short where you had The Midnight's "America Online" playing. I am somewhat of a Midnight obsessive myself - https://imgur.com/a/that-retro-vibe-IGjvqDM
ravensholt@reddit
The comment section is sometimes the best part of "watching" a video on YouTube.
Ryokurin@reddit
Floating point, while an issue wasn't as big as a lot of people made it out to be. I got into tweaking due to the Cyrix system I built, and most games played better once you got a 3d accelerator card.
Anyhow, what I think a lot of people misremember is that some of the compatibility issues that people had was due to early versions of Windows 95 and dos apps of the same vintage recognizing it as a 486. Again, if you knew what you were doing, you could usually work around the issue, but I do remember some heated discussions back in the day over it.
CookieEquivalent5996@reddit
God, I miss this era. Before consolidation and before the death of Moore's law. So many companies and crazy ideas around, and such quick turnover from nothing to success and vice versa.
No_Boysenberry4825@reddit
I enjoy her content. It's straightforward, humorous and engaging.
Swabia@reddit
Subscribed!
I like the history of computing. It’s fun to hear how the people making/marketing/predicting trends got things right or wrong.
Aaylas@reddit
Yes, the video was nice, but the red stapler on your desk was what really did it for me.
theSiliconSiren@reddit (OP)
I'm glad it made it into the video! Thank you for watching 😊
theSiliconSiren@reddit (OP)
Hope you all enjoy my video! 😊