How many of you were aware of assimilation methods used in Greece?

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ohgoditsdoddy@reddit

Huh. Turns out Greece had it’s own version of “Citizen, speak Turkish!”

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Yeah…..no, Arvanites fought for Greece during the war of independence. They were literally killing “turko Albanian Muslims” (that’s the term used during that time). If you call any of them Albanian today you’re very likely to get punched. We take pride to our Arvanite heroes and we know which people were in contrast to what this propaganda suggests 🤦🏻

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Renacimiento1234@reddit

That is a sign of how assimilation was successful

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Niocs@reddit

there was no need of assimilation, we literally shared everything. But you wouldn't get it. You are a Turk. And your people literally was created by (coerced) assimilation

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Sagaru_Y@reddit

And your people literally was created by (coerced) assimilation

Says the Hellenized Slav/Anatolian lul. You have less Hellenic than we carry Turkic heritage.

https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2F1cpzyqcf31oe1.jpeg

Your country was invented by Philhellenes. Not by you. Westerners told you to identify as Greeks. And you did.

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Niocs@reddit

The original image is no longer available, except for its reposting by some insecure Turks struggling with their true ancestry. I’ve also heard that you even called for a boycott of Ancestry.com because it was too painful for Turks to receive Greek ancestral results all the time.

This image has already been thoroughly debunked, including in your own propaganda post on this subreddit with clear refutations from non-turks. If you genuinely cared about the truth, you wouldn’t have posted it in the first place.

As for the history of my country, the burden of proof for these claims lies with you, try it and I'll happily refute you. But I suppose that’s difficult for you, because it would require you to actually do some research and think critically.

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Sagaru_Y@reddit

No it was boycotted because of genocide accusations. Turks don't get Greek heritage even in normal websites. But Greeks get Middle Eastern.

It was much more than that.

Christian vs muslim, conquered vs conqueror mindset plus living along each other and mixing leads to an assimilation of the smaller one (im partially that result lol!)

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Lakuriqidites@reddit

That is the definition of assimilation.

It is crazy how as a nation you have 0 awareness when it comes to minorities and their treatment.

I have always said, Greece is the worst country in the Balkans and probably the worst in Europe too when it comes to minority rights.

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Aegeansunset12@reddit

Arvanites fought for Greek orthodoxy against turko Albanian Muslims. Albanian identity didn’t exist during that time.

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Citaku357@reddit

Did you read this shit before you wrote it or not?

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Do you even know what a minority is Christos?

Yes Blerim, I know what it is.

Also the biggest diaspora is in Italy

400k+ albanians are in Greece. They wouldn't be here if what you said was true. You are exaggerating and you know it.

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Niocs@reddit

his name is Granit

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ohgoditsdoddy@reddit

Were you refuting my comment in some way?

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Aegeansunset12@reddit

Kurds did both sides in Turkish war of independence like say Sheikh Said. Arvanites didn’t ally with Albanians because they were enemies

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ohgoditsdoddy@reddit

Kurds are not the only minorities in Turkey, assimilation only partially succeeded for a population as large as the Kurds. Many Trabzon Turks, who were Pontic Greek not long ago, will lose their shit on you if you suggest they’re anything other than Turkish even though some of their grandmothers still know how to speak Greek.

You keep repeating the same thing. I personally find it difficult to understand why one would feel the need to control what language such loyal people speak.

In before you accuse me of some imagined ulterior motives again, I stand against all forms of assimilation and I am the furthest thing from a Turkish nationalist, so please, do not claim I’m pushing an agenda here.

My only agenda is understanding if you’re saying OPs post did not happen, or if you’re saying it did happen but there is important context missing that ameliorates what we are seeing. If latter, I also want to know what that context is, beyond “Arvanites are great and loyal people, they were always on our side, we did not assimilate them.” Because I can’t imagine a context other than assimilation for OPs post.

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Aegeansunset12@reddit

I’m not here to do you favours. I said the video pushes a false narrative. I gave you the example that was needed for you to understand my thesis. Judge what happens based on the time frame it did not today’s standards. Arvanites joined our Greek identity because they identified as Christian orthodox romans beforehand. It isn’t something that became suddenly.

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VirnaDrakou@reddit

My thought here but i wouldn’t consider those people greek at least only would in “genetic” terms.

They are raised in turkish culture,language and belief..they are turks 🤷‍♀️

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17lej@reddit

They can consider themselves whatever they want today but anyone who thinks their Arvanite ancestors weren’t Albanian is in denial

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Aegeansunset12@reddit

They considered themselves during that time and that’s when it mattered the most. You can’t apply today’s anachronistic dna obsession to make a nationalistic narrative of a greater Albania or an Albanian civil war. If that were the case i would say all our fights with Türkiye were a civil war 🤦🏻

They bled for Greece and are as greek as it gets

Considering that you accept Pontic "Greeks" (Hellenized Kartvelians) as Greeks too, there isn't any meaning to the Greek identity. It's more of a vibe than a reality. United in LARP.

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Odd-Independent7679@reddit (OP)

How were Catholic and Orthodox Albanians called Turks? Are you alright?

You called Muslim Greeks and Slavs Turks, too.

That only shows YOUR fascist way of dealing with others.

Albanians united, disregarding religions.

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absolutzer1@reddit

Greeks claim anything that doesn't belong to them as theirs. For example, Turkish food and also the name Macedonia. Athens looks like a dumpster, worse than Mogadishu Somalia and these people still think they are the best country in the Balkans. Now they claim arvanites for Greeks.

Arvanites, tosks, gheghs, arbereshe, dardans, they are all albanians

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Muted-Listen6707@reddit

Then by your own admittance Arvanites are not entirely Albanian because if we were then we’d be united and we’re not. Btw calling people fascist while arguing about racial purity is questionable at best and down right malicious at worst. Your whole narrative just screams right wing ultranationalist.

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Slimk1ng@reddit

Greek identity was created based on religion, like the Serbian identity or Turkish one. That's why you had the population exchanges based on religion and not ethnicity. Albanian national identity was created of a people group, with no connection to religion. OP said nothing about racial purity but it is a fact that Greece divided people by religion, calling the christian Albanians Greeks and the christian Albanians Turks. While for Albanians they were all Albanians.

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Odd-Independent7679@reddit (OP)

Where did I talk about racial purity?

with similar social values to Western Europe,

Odd-Independent7679@reddit (OP)

Nope, just some modern Greeks.

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StamatisTzantopoulos@reddit

Arvanites in Greece in 2000bc? What are you smoking mate? As for genetics, trust me, it's very difficult to extrapolate insights into identity and ethnicity from that. People mix.

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Odd-Independent7679@reddit (OP)

I didn't word it properly, you are right there. It seems that the forefathers of Arvanites have been in Greece since 2000bc. So, not all Arvanites moved in 13th century. Many were there already.

And, science has already studied and "extrapolated" it. So, not that difficult. One just needs to start accepting facts before learned history.

Many mainland Greeks have the same blood/ancestry as Albanians. It seems many were hellenized during the Byzantine Empire, especially in urban centers. While others were hellenized much later.

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MegasKeratas@reddit

It seems that the forefathers of Arvanites have been in Greece since 2000bc.

Big claims like that require proof.

One just needs to start accepting facts before tought history.

And these «facts» I'm guessing are your comments...

Many mainland Greeks have the same blood/ancestry as Albanians. It seems many were hellenized during the Byzantine Empire, especially in urban centers. While others were hellenized much later.

Greetings,

Your post/comment was removed for violating Rule 11 of r/AskBalkans: "For the time being, no posts or comments about genetics are allowed on this sub.".

If you believe this is an error please send us a modmail.

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MegasKeratas@reddit

This doesn't mean that everyone was Albanian... It means that neighboring populations share some ancestry. This common ancestry isn't necessarily Albanian.

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Odd-Independent7679@reddit (OP)

This genetic profile is no longer existent in other populations. Today, it can be found only in Albanians, West Macedonians and mainland Greeks.

And it is not ancient Greek, as they were there before these people came. It says most of their ancestry is derived from West Balkans.

This populations was formed and spread around at least 1500 years ago, around the time the Albanian language and identity was formed.

Another study about the Arbereshe (tried, but couldn't find right now), confirms that the Arbereshe who fled to Italy from Greece seems to have come from two moevements, around 1000 years apart.

So, while they both were speaking Albanian, one group was in Greece around 1000 years earlier than the other, before they both migrated to Italy.

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MegasKeratas@reddit

This populations was formed and spread around at least 1500 years ago

«around», «at least» very precise wording...

around the time the Albanian language and identity was formed.

That's very convenient, isn't it?

You are basing your whole argument on uncertain facts. Stop presenting them as accepted truths. Enough with the propaganda.

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Odd-Independent7679@reddit (OP)

You can continue picking at my words, or you can read and inform yourself. What I am saying is not propaganda. What you have been taught, is.

"MBA-IA populations of a large geographic region spanning northern Greece, North Macedonia and the entire Adriatic coast, including the region of modern Albania, form a uniform genetic cluster with similar admixture proportions (Fig. 3B) that persists for at least 1.500 years…

Remarkably, a majority of these haplogroups (J2b-Z600, R1b-BY611, R1b-PF7562, I-M223) experience a sudden and steep increase in subclade diversity between 500-800 CE (Fig. 10), which coincides with the timing proposed by linguistic and historical hypotheses on the origins of Albanians and their language (33–35, 64, 84), as well as IBD-sharing analyses... The rate of E-V13 subclade diversification increased steeply from 500 CE onwards, following the pattern of the other haplogroups found in modern Albanians ..."

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They don't score Greek. They score Albanian. However, since mainland Greek can't be distinguished from Albanians, the companies decide to name it Greek since they'd rather anger Albanians than Greeks.

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Kalypso_95@reddit

Idk man, I trust these companies and their namings more than an Albanian ultranationalist like you. Take a DNA test and see how much Greek dna you'll score!

Adios 😘

And where exactly did I say that?

Literally the comment above? 🤦‍♀️why am I wasting my time with you? It seemed funny in the beginning but I got bored of you

Look at my posts

No thanks, I don't want to lose braincells

The mental gymnastics...

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Kalypso_95@reddit

He asked for evidence about ypur bs statement. I don't see any

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Odd-Independent7679@reddit (OP)

Look at my other comments.

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StamatisTzantopoulos@reddit

Just facts

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Odd-Independent7679@reddit (OP)

No, nations are mostly biological entities. Except in those places where assimilation happened, and the nation is still not ready to accept it.

All nations are indeed a mix, some more, some less. However, the Albanian identity and language was formed around 2k years ago. So, those that diverged from the Albanian tree in the last 2k years have Albanian ancestry. Not only common ancestry with Albanians.

While, those that diverged before 2k years ago, do indeed only have common ancestry with Albanians, since Albanian wasn't formed yet.

There's no denying there. I'm just waiting for the time you'll finally come to terms with the truth.

As per Illyrians, there is now undeniable genetic proof, besides historic, linguistic and archeological proof that Albanians are their descendants. You still continuing to deny that shows the bias and propaganda that was instilled in you.

Remarkably, Albanian paternal ancestry shows continuity from Bronze Age Balkan populations, including those known as Illyrians.

But I guess that's not enough proof for you?

Btw, this article was written by authors who are quite skewed against Albanians.

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StamatisTzantopoulos@reddit

That nations are biological news will be news to the historians, ethnologists, sociologists etc who study nations. It will definitely be news to the English for example, who are a mix of Briton, Saxon, Norman, Danish etc DNA.

The Albanian language was formed way earlier than 2k years ago. As for the identity - we just don't know. I know it's hard for you to accept, but we need sources for that we don't have enough. I don't think you even understand the links between genetics, language and identity, which are indeed very complicated. You may speak an X language, have Y biological ancestry, and identify as Z.

Re Illyrians, I do wonder if you have read the paper you yourself shared here and what it says, eg this 'We find that modern Albanians descend from Roman era western Balkan populations, with additional admixture from Slavic-related groups.' In any case, that's not proof that there is a link between modern Albanian and Illyrians as ethnic groups - it's like believing that modern Turks of Byzantine/Roman ancestry who assimilated to Islam in the Middle Ages are Hettites because they happen to have some of their genetic heritage! And of course the Illyrians never lived in Greek lands, no historian in their right mind would have ever claimed there.

Re the linguistic links, as I said there is no consensus. Many serious linguists think the Albanian language came from northeastern Balkans and is not related to Illyrian but again - WE JUST DON'T KNOW! https://balkaninsight.com/2011/03/25/austrian-scholars-leave-albania-lost-for-words/

In any case, I will stop here cause I think I am wasting my time. Discussing with nationalists who think their grand-grand-father was the best and had a bigger dick than everybody else and everyone has cheated on them is probably a waste of other people's time, especially if those people are only interested in stirring up trouble, as you did with this post, and know little about the relevant sciences.

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VirnaDrakou@reddit

Love, first even greek wasn’t a broad term at the time let alone albanians.

The genetics is because of paleo balkan and indo european shared ancestry. Anatolian farmers..

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Odd-Independent7679@reddit (OP)

It seems like you think that since Greeks didn't have a common identity, nobody did. However, many did.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/League_of_Lezh%C3%AB

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VirnaDrakou@reddit

You are speaking about 2000 BCE and i am replying to you that neither albanians or greeks existed as a broad term not in 1400s.

Those greeks score differently because the mainlanders have more yamnaya input, it also has to do that there wasn’t just one main group inhabiting those lands and islands. Islanders are most likely pre-greek/anatolian people, it is quite evident even in the culture back then.

Idk why yall (greeks and albanians) want someone to top, we had shared ancestors who weren’t greek neither albanian. Goddammit yall make me wanna slam a wall 😭☝️

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Odd-Independent7679@reddit (OP)

Neither Albanian, nor Greek needed to exist as a term for the forefathers of Arvanites to be living in Greece. What does one have to do with the other?

Yes, indeed. Some did come with the Yamnaya. However, (ancient) Greeks were not Yamnaya. So, those that came with the Yamnaya were hellenized. Some sooner, others later.

Mainlans Greeks don't only score genetically the same with Albanians because of Yamanaya input. Their paternal DNA tells they come from the same ancestry as Albanians, which is very different from the rest of Greece.

Actually, the island genetica is the Greek genetics. It's what's found in ancient Greek civilization.

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VirnaDrakou@reddit

I am sorry if i sound rude but you understand our conversation is about 2000 BCE.

The way you word and want to twist is basically “gently” trynna say that what? Ancient greeks were albanians? Or that we are all albanians? Then why do we score similarly even the mainlanders with italy and north macedonia and bulgaria (who are also heavy on paleobalkan compared to slavic) were they all ancient albanians or what? Is it that hard to grasp that neither of the above mentioned countries is the genetical progenitor of the rest?

Also genetics is just a modern way of eugenics and disregard many other factors.

As an Arvanite may i ask what you want? You want us to tell you “yes we are albanians?” No we aren’t, genetically our forefathers were but when you literally settle,intermix and make families with the rest you are gonna assimilate. I have no problem to admit that a part of me genetically is albanian but that means shit just it would be for a turk to have greek.

Now can we move on, on some real issues that plunder our countries instead of genetic jack off?

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Odd-Independent7679@reddit (OP)

No, ancient Greeks were absolutely not Albanian. They were Anatolian related.

Many (not all) modern MAINDLAND Greeks (only mainland), however, do have Albanian ancestry. Some more recent, others more distant. While some others have common ancestry with Albanians.

What I want is Greeks to be able to accept that some of them have Albanian ancestry, don't feel any negativity while saying it, and accept that it happened because of foreceful assimilation.

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VirnaDrakou@reddit

You keep talking about genetics and it is wrong, genetics can be interpreted in many and different ways. You clearly want some “albanian win” by both your answers.

It is like greek nationalists who want badly Turks to admit they have greek in them. Like guys why do you give such a big fucking care about this shit? Will you feel better at night? Did Albania,Greece or insert which ever country wins in the end of the day? Good lord.

I am sorry to break it to you or anyone else but having someone admitting they have something in them is a way too boost low self esteem and comfort your nationalism.

I don’t care what my great x grandparents spoke in 11th-12th century. I am greek and that’s what matters 🤷‍♀️

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Odd-Independent7679@reddit (OP)

Greece wants Macedonians to accept they have nothing to do with ancient Macedonia because it was Greek, not Slavic. Is that wrong, too?

I don't want anyone to accept they "have something in them." I want them to accept their ancestry and accept forceful assimilation happened. That's all. Why is that such a huge deal to you? Ever asked yourself?

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VirnaDrakou@reddit

Girllll you make me laugh.

You want people to accept they were forcefully assimilated?? Lol when they tell you no it wasn’t that case just because it doesn’t fit your agenda. Goddammit this sub can bring some hilarious people.

North macedonia is a different case, it would be like take epirus and south albania, make a complete different ethnicity to that of albania and greeks, take skanderberg and alexander call them arvanites and just make up something completely different.

My people weren’t forcefully oppressed whether you like it or not 🤷‍♀️ i don’t care to call myself albanian neither my great great grandparents.

You don’t use genetics properly, you have lack of understanding and use them for nationalistic purposes. If you want purity go to an isolated amazonian tribe or suck it up like the rest of us.

I shall leave you in your fantasy and fight internet wars.

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olivenoel3@reddit

Arvanites maintained a distinct identity till 20th century. Only after strong assimilation policies of greek state did you all start to completely "be" greek.

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Muted-Listen6707@reddit

We still have a distinct identity. It’s just not purely Albanian. It’s more complicated than that. We’re a heavily mixed people that always identified as Orthodox Christian first and Greek or Albanian second. In fact if you want to truly quote the actual Arvanites that lived during the 1800s, we always saw ourselves as “Roman”, as in descendants of the Byzantines. I’m sorry it doesn’t fit the dogma but that’s just the truth.

Was assimilation a fact? Definitely? Do we feel like Albanians that need to be liberated from evil Greeks? Nope. We’re both Greek and Albanian but after all these years we feel closer to Greeks and live our lives as modern day Greeks. We’re not going to change that because our distant cousins in the far north have a sovereign state of their own. Modern day Albania is your business and we’re not involved with that.

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olivenoel3@reddit

No, not every Arvanite identified with roman/byzantine. Most of them identified with albanianism. Look up the Arbereshe of Italy today. Some of them originate from modern greek territories. And some Arvanites originate from medieval albanian noble families.

Do we feel like Albanians that need to be liberated from evil Greeks? Nope. We’re both Greek and Albanian but after all these years we feel closer to Greeks and live our lives as modern day Greeks.

That's an understatment that doesn't portray the real picture. Plenty of you even hate the idea of an albanian ancestry.

We’re not going to change that because our distant cousins in the far north have a sovereign state of their own. Modern day Albania is your business and we’re not involved with that.

Well you were pretty much gorced to think like that, so no wonder!

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Kalypso_95@reddit

Olive you should make a DNA test. If it comes out that you have 25% Slavic ancestry, you should start identifying as Serbian, move to Serbia even, because it will mean that some of your ancestors were forcefully assimilated into Albanians!

That's how dumb you all sound

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olivenoel3@reddit

Here's your 🏅 for the bullshit of the day... it has nothing to do with what we are discussing here...

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Kalypso_95@reddit

This medal belongs to you and OP. I don't know why the mods let you attack the Arvanites and their identity like that when they're so sensitive with other people's identity. Maybe u/bambumkiofte23 could answer that

But you know what? I enjoy the Arvanites themselves in the comments owning you

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olivenoel3@reddit

I am not attacking anyone. I am stating facts. Stop with the victimisation. Noone is owning me. And why do you care if you are not one?

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Kalypso_95@reddit

Did you not say to him that he was forced to think that he has nothing to do with Albania? Who forced this guy to think like that? And OP is even calling him brainwashed! Are you people serious?

And why do you care if you are not one?

Why do YOU care if you're not one? Leave them alone, how many times do they have to tell you they want nothing to do with you? You all sound like my ex at this point lol

Also, you are the one who talks about attacking others' identity? When you only badmouth Albanians here?

Pot calling the kettle black here! XD

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olivenoel3@reddit

Did you not say to him that he was forced to think that he has nothing to do with Albania? Who forced this guy to think like that?

Greek government.

Are you people serious?

Yes, truth hurts.

Why do YOU care if you're not one?

So why do you care, what name the slavs above you use for their country?

how many times do they have to tell you they want nothing to do with you?

They are to say what they want just like we are. Feelings don't change facts.

Pot calling the kettle black here

When did I attack greeks here?

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Kalypso_95@reddit

Greek government.

Mitsotakis? I'm not a big fan of him but when did he do that?

When did I attack greeks here

😂😂😂

Good one Olive!

So why do you care, what name the slavs above you use for their country?

So, since we're mentioning random things, why do you care about Kosovo?

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olivenoel3@reddit

Mitsotakis? I'm not a big fan of him but when did he do that?

No, the greek governments after you got the independence with their assimilation policies. Maybe read the history of your country first?

Good one Olive!

Still waiting for you to show me where I attack greeks!

So, since we're mentioning random things, why do you care about Kosovo?

1st of all: Kosova is made up.of Albanians. Before that it was called Dardania by actual natives.

2nd of all: it's not random. If we should not care about arvanites, why should you care about north macedonians since you are not one as well? That's what your stupid logic is

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Kalypso_95@reddit

If we should not care about arvanites, why should you care about north macedonians since you are not one as well? That's what your stupid logic is

But it's your stupid logic Olive, since you're the one asking why I care about Arvanites if I'm not one in the first place 😭

No, the greek governments after you got the independence with their assimilation policies. Maybe read the history of your country first?

I don't think the Arvanite guy you were talking to is 200 years old Olive! 🤦‍♀️

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olivenoel3@reddit

But it's your stupid logic Olive, since you're the one asking why I care about Arvanites if I'm not one in the first place 😭

Yes, you are not one. I am at least related to them. Arvanite it's how my medieval ancestors called themselves too. You do understand the concepts, right? It's like saying you should not claim anything about ancient greek history as well...

I don't think the Arvanite guy you were talking to is 200 years old Olive! 🤦‍♀️

You know pretty well, what I mean. Stop acting stupid

He was telling you his opinion and you were talking to him when you said he was forced to think that way

I wasn't correcting his opinion. I was corrceting the false narrative he stated which is not based on true facts. I am not denying he has a greek identity just like Arbereshe have an italian identity as well.

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Kalypso_95@reddit

Arvanites are my compatriots Olive, not yours. They want nothing to do with Albania, how many times do they have to say that to you? Bear in mind that we're talking about people who came to Greece in 11th-13th century and in addition, they mixed so much with Greeks that it's stupid to tell them that they're not Greeks now. It's as stupid as asking from Americans with an Irish great-great-great-grandfather to identify as 5% Irish. But they're mocked when they do it

You know pretty well, what I mean. Stop acting stupid

No I don't and you should stop deflecting. You told him that he was forced to think the way he thinks. I asked you a simple question. Who forced him? You failed to answer that

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olivenoel3@reddit

Arvanites are my compatriots Olive, not yours.

Arvanites are not a monolith. You can't decide for others whose compatriot is who.

They want nothing to do with Albania, how many times do they have to say that to you?

Why are you talking on their behalf as if they are a monolith? You know we can follow the same logic for slavs in north macedonia, right? If they identify with macedonian identity, why do you all make a fuss about it?!

Bear in mind that we're talking about people who came to Greece in 11th-13th century and in addition, they mixed so much with Greeks that it's stupid to tell them that they're not Greeks now.

Again why are you talking about arvanites as if they are all a monolith? Even if their modern identity is greek they still have albanian origins and they used to speak arvanitika.

It's as stupid as asking from Americans with an Irish great-great-great-grandfather to identify as 5% Irish. But they're mocked when they do it

Not even remotely the same situation. The Arvanites in greece never had any chance to freely live their albanian identity after greek independence.

No I don't and you should stop deflecting. You told him that he was forced to think the way he thinks. I asked you a simple question. Who forced him? You failed to answer that

I did. If you don't understand it, it's on you.

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Muted-Listen6707@reddit

Dude you have a modern day Arvanite right here talking with you and debating in good faith. However instead of acknowledging my experiences and those of my family/people you immediately shut down my points as “yeah right, that’s what a brainwashed person would say”. You’re not here to listen or care about us. You want to expand your own lands and use us as an excuse. Albanians don’t give a fuck about Arvanites. We’re simply a pawn in your grander strategy against Greece or something. Like I said above I know you guys are our cousins but we have our own history now and don’t feel like we’re Albanians. I’m sorry you find this offensive but it’s not my problem.

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Odd-Independent7679@reddit (OP)

That is exactly what a brainwashed person would think. Albania never had any expansionist desires. Greece, on the other hand, did.

However instead of acknowledging my experiences and those of my family/people you immediately shut down my points as “yeah right, that’s what a brainwashed person would say”.

You don't even correctly know your own's ethnogroup history. 🤷🏻‍♂️

Albanians don’t give a fuck about Arvanites.

We give a fuck about those who are not ashamed of their albanian ancestry.

Like I said above I know you guys are our cousins but we have our own history now and don’t feel like we’re Albanians.

Hmm, I wonder why the Arbereshe of Italy don't say that ....

I’m sorry you find this offensive but it’s not my problem.

I find offensive when they reject the albanian ancestry

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Muted-Listen6707@reddit

I never once rejected my Albanian ancestry. I’ve stated this in every single comment in this thread. You’re not even reading my replies man. You’re just out for blood.

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olivenoel3@reddit

I was not talking specifically about you. I think that's pretty clear from my comments 🙄

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Muted-Listen6707@reddit

I haven’t spotted an ashamed Arvanite in the comments. I don’t know who you’re referring to here other than me. Btw we’re regarded as national heroes in Greece and are wildly celebrated. We never faced any shame in the way you seem to suggest. As I explained above (although you refuse to acknowledge it) Arvanite history in Greece goes way back and didn’t start in the 1920s through forced assimilation. We were always close to Greeks since the early days.

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olivenoel3@reddit

I haven’t spotted an ashamed Arvanite in the comments. I don’t know who you’re referring to here other than me

You do know there is a real world outside reddit, right? If you all cared about your ancestry, you would have tried to at least preserve arvanitika.

We never faced any shame in the way you seem to suggest

Most of you deny the albanian ancestry. That's what I mean by shame. That is a fact!

As I explained above (although you refuse to acknowledge it) Arvanite history in Greece goes way back and didn’t start in the 1920s through forced assimilation.

Well, of course. Who denied that?

We were always close to Greeks since the early days.

No, you weren't, lol. You were full fledged Albanians. You only got close to them because of the ottomans.

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StamatisTzantopoulos@reddit

I think it's coping with the trauma of post-war Communism and immigration over the last 3 decades. They have been through a lot, they have a bad reputation that they probably don't deserve (most Albanians I know are law-abiding and hard-working people) and are subject to a lot of racism, even today in Greece and Italy. Extreme nationalism is almost an inevitable reaction to cope.

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thestoicnutcracker@reddit

I have a relative through marriage (my uncle) and two friends who are part Arvanites. They HATE, D E S P I S E being associated with Albanians. One of them said that if I called him an Albania he would send me to my grave.

Because Albanians fought against their Arvanite brothers during the Greek War of Independence. Arvanites were Orthodox and fought with the Greeks while Albanians were Muslim and fought on the side of the Ottomans. Our two forefathers split right there and then and became opposing factions that killed each other. When Greece was established the Arvanites married Greek men and women, had kids with them and learned to live inside the new Hellenic Kingdom as modern day Greeks. Now we’re completely assimilated and you can barely tell us apart.

There’s zero Albanian nationalism amongst the Arvanites and we were mostly left alone by Albanians until now. All of a sudden you guys remembered we exist and start using us as propaganda tools to convince people that all modern Greeks are Albanians and you should have our lands. Arvanites are distinct from Albanians and were never part of the modern Albanian state.

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Odd-Independent7679@reddit (OP)

Muslim Greeks fought against Orthodox Greeks, too.

Why don't Greeks call themselves Albanian, then?

The mental gymnastics...

I didn't come to your country. Neither did I tell you you're Albanian.

I told you that you have Albanian ancestry. And I'm not telling you that you should feel bad either.

Why are you continuing to put words in my mouth? Trying to find something to attack me for stating simple facts, or is it reading comprehension issues?

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Muted-Listen6707@reddit

Then it appears we’re in complete agreement because I also made it clear that I have Albanian ancestors in my comments above. The issue is not the facts stated because we both agree on them. My issue is your overall rude tone when speaking about Arvanites and calling us brainwashed fascists for simply stating that over the years we also mixed with Greeks and since we live in Greece, we feel like Greeks and have no desire for reunification with a people that feel alien to us. It’s like finding out your dad had a kid with another woman. Sure that kid is your sibling and the same blood flows through your veins but at the same time that kid doesn’t feel like family because your moms are different and you have completely different lives by now. It’s so simple but you refuse to grasp this idea repeatedly in the comments, resorting to name calling and personal attacks. If you weren’t rude with me before I wouldn’t have to use a harsher tone with you. You can’t do that to people and expect them to not talk back. Instead of starting this conversation in a civilised manner you immediately went “Greeks=Bad, Albanians=Good” and refused to listen to actual Arvanites sharing their experiences with you. Hence me accusing you of using my heritage for your own personal agenda.

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VirnaDrakou@reddit

With so much mixing and after the centralization of Athens and abandoning the rural areas, there is no ‘purity’. Even my grandpa’s village was a mixed one.

Our situation is kind of similar to modern turks, just an encyclopedic fact nothing more and nothing less. It would also be dumb to call or identify myself as albanian (same goes for my grandparents gen) because few things i know are by my association with albanian immigrants who are friends,coworkers,neighbors.

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VasiliasBezos@reddit

People can't believe that every single country on Earth used to be a multinational kingdom of some kind and people mixed with each other all the time. Nation-states are a modern trend in civilization building and it's natural to have frictions from this. There are no pure balkan peoples. We're all related in some way or another and anyone who refuses that is probably an ultra-right-wing person looking for a cheap excuse to hate other people.

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VirnaDrakou@reddit

If anyone wants purity they should hit some isolated tribe in the amazon or the one in an island near India.

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Muted-Listen6707@reddit

gif

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theguysinblackshirt@reddit

Is this how you indoctrinate the ignorants against Albanians? Telling that we want to expand borders and also use violence????? We??? Less than 2 million people? 😂😂😂😂😂 dude you are funny maybe you should find the difference between Kosovo, Arvanitas and the rest with us, real Albanians cause we ain't like who are trying in a "polite" way to edd more hate

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Muted-Listen6707@reddit

Eat your own words: https://m.wikidata.org/wiki/Q331022#/media/File%3AGreater_Albania.png

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theguysinblackshirt@reddit

Dude they were al Albanian speaker territory, is different some Kosovo or others who live outside the territory wants the big Albania but I won't eat my words im Albanian from Tirana i am not nationalist and not a ignorant to accuse neighborhood or spread war or ignorance

We have come to terms with it. As I said we know we have Albanian ancestors. However it was so long ago that it doesn’t matter anymore. Our entire family trees were born and died in Greece. Bringing this up with the intention to start drama isn’t going to change anything.

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Odd-Independent7679@reddit (OP)

Why does it bring drama if you've come to terms with it?

My intention is not drama. It's normalization of the truth. You are the first one here to recognize it. As you can see from other commenters, others don't.

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StamatisTzantopoulos@reddit

Because the motivation most of the times is nationalist, just read the comments from Albanians on the post. Some think we stole their lands!

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Odd-Independent7679@reddit (OP)

Greece did occupy lands where Albanians were a majority in South Epirus. That is also a fact Greeks need to come to terms with. We are not asking back for it.

However, Greeks continue to ask for South Albanian land. They continue to ask for minority rights while they deny those same rights to those in their country. They also continue to spread propaganda of ethnically cleansing Albanians because they fought for fascists. The truth is, they were being ethnically cleansed 20 years before WW2.

Moreover, Albanians usually just react to Greek commenters. They get mad at madness, and spread more madness.

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StamatisTzantopoulos@reddit

Which lands were majority-Albanian in South (Greek) Epirus? I am afraid that's false. The Chams were roughly 20,000-30,000 people, ie a minority. I do think there was ethnic cleansing of Chams after WW2 - however, many Chams did indeed collaborate with the German occupiers and massacred Greeks during the occupation. I think all these events really have to be seen in the context of the post-WW2 dramatic events, effectively ethnic cleansing all over Eastern Europe, and even parts of Western (Italy and France). I don't see any Greek comments on the video.

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Odd-Independent7679@reddit (OP)

The ethnic cleansing started in 1920s. What was the population of Epirus then? And Chams did collaborate with whoever promised to leave them alive in their own homes.

How about you see the reason why Chams fought alongside Italians and Germans, first?

Italians and Germans were the first one to allow Albanians to open schools in their language in Kosovo and Macedonia. They were the first ones to not imprison them, or beat them, or torture them or kill them, or expulse them for simply being Albanian.

Many of the people who were expulsed in 1923 were Albanian.

What should they have done? Fought alongside Greeks who were already ethnically cleansing them? Or stayed neutral, and let Greeks win, so in the end they would get ethnically cleansed nonetheless.

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Zaharoplastio@reddit

I’m going to tell you the same thing the Turks tell us, “it didn’t happen, but if it did you deserve it “.

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StamatisTzantopoulos@reddit

The population of Epirus at the time was >100,000, just Ioannina was +20,000. There was indeed some strife between Chams and the Greeks even back then, but definitely not ethnic cleansing. 1923 - that was an international treaty, Muslims had to leave Greece and go to Turkey (the Turks wanted them actually) and as a matter of fact you have to credit the Greek state for not deporting all of them although it had the capacity to do so. Regarding your final questions re WWII, look there is no easy answer, these things are not black vs white. People make hard choices during wars that they may regret later. I do think that you could call what happened to the Chams, esp those who didn't collaborate, ethnic cleansing, but unfortunately that was the norm all over Eastern Europe in 1945. So much had happened, in this case Chams killing Greeks. Do we really want to open this can of warms and make what happen in 1945 a political issue? I think it will go ugly, and not just in Greece and Albania. Look at Poland (asking for reparations from the Germans!), Russia vs Ukraine, Hungary vs everyone etc. It doesn't help anyone.

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Positive-Donut-9129@reddit

I don't disagree with anything that you're saying. And I think that is is about time in Balkans to do what other Europeans did after centuries of war and bloodshed (eg France, Germany, UK, Spain, etc). Come to terms with it and make Blakans a peaceful and prosperous neighbourhood through collaboration, trade, culture, etc. 💪💪

My only objection is that as a Greek, I can reassure you that I don't know ANY Greek person, no matter how far right they are (and I know many of them) ,that asks for South Albanian land. I don't doubt that you have encountered such Greeks, but trust me, they are NOT representative of the political discourse, not even of the far right political discourse.

The main reason is politics.

Eg when it comes to allowing minority languages in Greece, in Western Thrace, Turkey takes advantage of that situation, calling the Muslim minority Turkish, planting Turkey supported political parties. There they even have religious schools that are more liberal with Islam than Turkey (women can wear headscarf, Arabic chants in prayers, Islamic law is allowed). There are also minority schools and the kids that go there till high school do not know that well Greek, as in their homes they speak Turkish. While the Pomaks are forced to learn Turkish too. When they go to Turkey they aren't that well accepted either. If Greece faces one front with Turkey, opening another with Albania and Slavic Macedonia that would appropriate Arvanites and Slavic speakers as Albanian and Ethnic Macedonian,(because that is what will happen) would be too much. BTW Albania poses similar challenges to teaching Greek language in the Greek speaking minorities, making school access demands very hard. While Muslim, Turkish and Italian schools are much more wide spread.

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SomeOneOutThere-1234@reddit

It is awful. As I said over on r/Greece, it’s also sad seeing people in (mostly) other social media platforms claiming that “whoever got killed in that fire in the club in Skopje got killed because god decided to punish them for having the name north macedonia”.

And yes, those idiots insist on calling the country Skopje. They’re assholes and there are many of them, unfortunately.

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MegasKeratas@reddit

it’s also sad seeing people in (mostly) other social media platforms claiming that “whoever got killed in that fire in the club in Skopje got killed because god decided to punish them for having the name north macedonia”.

Link a tweet or something, I'd be interested to see who has said this.

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SomeOneOutThere-1234@reddit

I saw it on Facebook, I don’t really use the platform, but it was on a post that a friend of mine shared. If I see anything, I’ll DM you.

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The oldest written Albanian is from 1462.

However, there is a reference to Albanian books from 1332, which means Albanian was written even before then. It was lost, or most probably destroyed by our loving neighbors.

I'd say that's not "until recently."

Albanians (called Arvanite in Greek) had, of course, an Albanian identity. Otherwise, they would be called Greek. But no, they were called Albanians. That is until they were forcefully assimilated.

If our neighbors hadn't taken over half our land, we would probably have has enough to stay in our country.

It is about time you accept reality.

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Aegeansunset12@reddit

That’s what I literally said Albanian was the last language in the region to be written let alone to have an identity on its own as a nation. As I said Arvanites fought for Greece and orthodoxy. Not Albania. As for stolen lands you’re the last to talk considering you outbred Serbians in Kosovo and then created a separatist movement.

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Odd-Independent7679@reddit (OP)

Inform yourself, and don't talk rubbish. By order:

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Aegeansunset12@reddit

The percentage of Serbs declined and then the Albanians declared independence. In summary :

1) Arvanites fought for Greece and did not have an Albanian identity

2) Serbian population in Kosovo declined and Albanians declared independence from it instead of remaining in the same country history had brought them so far

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Citaku357@reddit

it instead of remaining in the same country history had brought them so far

Tf is this supposed to mean lol

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Slimk1ng@reddit

"Roman orthodox"

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Aegeansunset12@reddit

That’s how our revolution started. Arvanites identified as Christian orthodox romans and killed turko Albanian Muslims

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Slimk1ng@reddit

"Albanians" not "Arvanites"

"Albanian Muslims" not "turko Albanian Muslims" ( this is just a racist slur used by your likes, no one identified as such)

they were both Albanians,

and both Arvanites. Arvanite is just the way to say Arbër in Greek. Just like Albanian is the the way to say Arbër in Latin which is what English adopted.

there were also Albanians in the territory of today's Albania, North Macedonia, Montenegro Kosovo, Turkey and Italy that were Roman Orthodox. I even personally know Arbëresh in Italy that are and always have been orthodox.

Try not to make the same mistake again.

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Aegeansunset12@reddit

Turko Albanian Muslim is the term used to refer to our enemies during our war of independence. Arvanites gave their lives to protect Christian orthodox Roman Greece.

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Slimk1ng@reddit

yes it was a racist slur like you are using it, not a form of identity. I don't know how else to explain it to you. There was no Greece back then, they were fighting the remove the Ottoman empire. Then Greece was created from the Roman Orthodox population which was rebranded as Greek Orthodox to create the national identity of the modern country of Greece.

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Aegeansunset12@reddit

It was a form of identity. Turko Albanians fought us. Greek and arvanites won the turko Albanian ottomans and we became the most prosperous country in the region. Albania is jealous of Greece and even though they migrate here to have a better life they are still jealous and try to steal our Arvanites.

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Slimk1ng@reddit

no one is trying to steal your Arvanites lol. you are still living in 20th century propaganda.

You really think Muslim Albanians thought of themselves as Turks? Not sure if you are really that dumb or just acting dumb.

There's a significant percentage of Christian Albanians so religion was no difference per se. You will generally have a hard time proving any distinction between Arvanites , Albanians at the time, because even though people may feel loyalty to different religious institutions, kingdoms or empires, ethnicity is a matter in itself (and for most of history was not associated with the polity one lives in, or the religion one has).

Serbian population in Kosovo declined and Albanians declared independence from it instead of remaining in the same country history had brought them so far

We have had a majority Albanian population in Kosovo even before the Serbian occupation in 1912, what are you blabbering about?

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Aegeansunset12@reddit

1) Orthodoxy was tied to Greece and the medieval Roman Empire. Arvanites were orthodox and in many cases dual speakers.

2) Serbians had a significant population and Albanian ended up growing to such extent that they separated. Read again what I said and don’t interpret based on emotion

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DK_Aconpli_Town_54@reddit

Arvanitas called themselves as Arbereshe not Greeks, we know this for a fact. There was a significant percentage of non-Arvanitas Orthodox Albanians.
Albanians being a majority in Kosovo had no role into us separating from Serbia. It was nationalist movements from their end which brought our independence, this is what I was trying to tell you, or do you lack reading comprehension?

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Aegeansunset12@reddit

1) Arvanites joined Greek forces against turko Albanian Muslims. Albania back then didn’t exist as a nation or idea.

2) You’re lack clarity for being a victim of said history

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DK_Aconpli_Town_54@reddit

I think your mom gave birth to you from her ass, that you are not able to comprehend the Arvanitas identity before the modern nations were formed. Only when Albanians began forming a nation state distinct from Greece did the Arvanites choose Greece, without feeling affiliation to Albania all that much. Understandable since they already had a nation at this point.
Read what I said one more time, maybe it will hit you.

✅ Keep your hands off our country and arvanites.

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DK_Aconpli_Town_54@reddit

>You made attacks

Ironic

>✅ You spread lies

Which?

>You admitted arvanites fought for orthodox Greece

Yes

>had no Albanian identity

Never said that. Although I am not surprised you cant even read.

>Now you begin a new narrative since the last one failed

What?

>Keep your hands off our country and arvanites.

Are you ok in the head?

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Aegeansunset12@reddit

I made no reference of birth via anus although it fits you. You did so in the parenthesis above that you put Albanian when Arvanites had 0 Albanian identity. Zero. Keep your hands off our Arvanites. They died for us and we you wont use them for your nationalist narrative.

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DK_Aconpli_Town_54@reddit

All your comments in this thread are calling Albanians as turko Albanians and calling others names, even using terms as outbred, once you got a taste of your medicine you start crying.

>You did so in the parenthesis above

They have assimilated into Greece now of course they're Greek, their ancestors though, are Albanian, and when they speak in their language they say Arbereshe while they use shklerisht for Greek - here's the Arvanites Nikos explaining that to you lol: https://youtu.be/YQCM4AbVRoI?si=Rp_DqU6cdAaBkmAN

You’re not dying about anything, you’re an internet noone who is on Reddit all day.

Why did they speak Albanian at home? Why do you call them Arvanites? Why couldnt their women speak Greek at all?

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Aegeansunset12@reddit

I will be here today the next day and the day after to stop the Albanian propaganda that tries to steal our people. Arvanites speaking Greek and arvanite identified as Christian orthodox romans. They never fought for Albania and they have no affinity to it. Get your hands off it. I’m not dying but I am voting and I will make sure others know your big Albania dreams as well.

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DK_Aconpli_Town_54@reddit

I cant promise you Ill be here every moment since I have a life, but Ill make sure to make fun of you and your kind every time I see their comments, what in the cringe is this?

Keep on referring to them as Arvanites as you burn.

You evaded nothing? Why did they call themselves Arbereshe then?

Bilingual? Here Johann Georg von Hahn explains it to you how bilingual they were:

https://imgur.com/a/Z1SHohr

https://imgur.com/a/uIfxDQQ

Here's him explaining how they spoke Albanian at home: https://zeitschrift-fuer-balkanologie.de/index.php/zfb/article/view/390/411

Here's Arvanite Nikos explaining how his grandmother couldnt speak Greek at all, and how they call Greek shklerisht - foreign: https://youtu.be/YQCM4AbVRoI?si=VOeb3aBq4F75n6C2

Can you not see I am making fun of you bro? Move on to someone of your level please.

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DK_Aconpli_Town_54@reddit

I said “I dont have to answer” since you’re calling them Arvanites for me. Your ancestors have fought one another all history, you still claim them as Greek, today I claim Arvanites to be Albanian since they chose the Greek nation. But saying that they had no Albanian ethnic identity when they called themselves as Arbereshe, when their women couldn’t speak Greek for shut, and that their ancestors werent Albanians, is pure delusion. You’re a chronically online keyboard warrior who can’t answer simple question but always evades the point. You have Arvanites in this thread saying that their ancestors were Albanians, maybe go and cry to them a little more, or do you lack attention this much you’re stuck on me like the shit that gets stuck on your shoe?

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DK_Aconpli_Town_54@reddit

Ottomans were your enemies, a couple Albanians were used as mercenaries and they betrayed the Ottomans the moment they didnt pay them, they switched sides for the highest bidder, going into great length of history would be too much for your peanut brain who cant comprehend a modern nation and the ancestors of Arvanites who were Albanian.

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Odd-Independent7679@reddit (OP)

Arvanites had a f.. ARVANITE (Albanian) identity. That is why they were called ARVANITE and not Greek!

Arvanites who moved to Italy identity Albanian today, 600 years later. That is because they were not forcefully assimilated.

Serbian population percentage in Kosovo (they were at most 20%) declined for several reasons:
In 1878, Serbia ethnically cleansed Albanians from half of historic Kosovo. They then moved to modern Kosovo. That's how the Albanian population in Kosovo almost doubled.
Serbs who did crimes (murdered their neighbors) fled and didn't come back, because how could they?
Over 1 mil Albanians and some Serbs were deported or fled during the war. Albanians came back. Serbs did not. Because they had it better in Serbia. Many Albanians who fled to the West also never came back.

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Sokola_Sin@reddit

Serbian population percentage in Kosovo (they were at most 20%)

Arvanites back then didn’t identify as Albanians but rather with their Christian orthodox religion. Kosovo ended up in Yugoslavia and Serbia but once Serbians became a tiny tiny minority Albanians separated. In Kosovo there was pile of bones from the Serbians that died there in 1389.

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Sokola_Sin@reddit

If our neighbors hadn't taken over half our land, we would probably have had enough to stay in our country.

Land you colonize isn't yours. It's land that had never belonged to you to start with.

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Odd-Independent7679@reddit (OP)

How did we colonize a land where we've been living for millenia?

Hello, look at the mirror.

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Sokola_Sin@reddit

You didn't though, and that's what you'll see if you actually study the history. You're claiming lands that you colonized in the Ottoman era, none of which are yours.

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Citaku357@reddit

You didn't though, and that's what you'll see if you actually study the history.

Serbian History the one who says Skenderbeg was a Serb lmao no thanks.

You're claiming lands that you colonized in the Ottoman era, none of which are yours.

Which lands lol

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Odd-Independent7679@reddit (OP)

You know, in 2019, they actually started studying anciend graves DNA around Balkans, especially in Serbia.

Your propaganda doesn't function anymore. Educate yourself.

Debatable based on what exactly? I think you simply have a hard time making a distinction between ethnicity and a modern nation.

Well obviously you know how that is spelled

https://www.libgen.is/book/index.php?md5=FD7569ACA41724D65C665A1722F90A15 Here's the pdf of the book btw, next time be a good boy and honest.

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Odd-Independent7679@reddit (OP)

Then, do explain to me why Albanians in Italy, Croatia, even Ukraine don't deny their ancestry, and view it positively.

It's only the Albanians in Greece who don't want to accept any relation with Albanian roots.

Moreover, do explain to me, why didn't Catholic Albanians become Italian? Because nobody tried to assimilate them, maybe?

I don’t personally know or care what her job exactly is, but as you can see, based of their albanian documentary, they’re not hesitant to claim those greeks are albanians and continue to harass them even in the 20th century, and like i’ve said, greek speakers experienced similar torture of what you posted, and who knows how many people there who identify as albanians have actually greek roots themselves?

All those Serbs in Albania 😂😂😂😂😂

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Sokola_Sin@reddit

Yes, like your national poet, Miloš Nikolić.

Why lie about a Serbian minority in Albania when there never was one?

Do you guys ever argue in good faith? Of course there is/was a Serbian minority, it's officially recognized as "Serbs-Montenegrins" i.e. one category. It's literally on your latest census, use your own eyes.

Minorities are well respected and live in peace in Albania.

Minorities are mostly assimilated or long since expelled. I referenced laws introduced that prohibited Serbian names and the Serbian language, and you called me a fascist for it. You're clearly living in your own little world.

If you have any Serbian friends in Albania, you should have them translate [this little documentary](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANx0j1jJ1Ik), titled How Serbs became Albanians. It's very interesting.

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Traditional_Eagle554@reddit

They’ve been labeled both for the sake of political correctness, but go ask them what they actually consider themselves, buddy. There are fewer of them left than guests on my cousin’s wedding list, so maybe quit yapping.

And do you actually have proof of these so-called laws, or are you just using that to dodge my other two points? The real issue here is why Serbia is trying to erase Albanians from the Presheva Valley. Systematic discrimination, forced migration, this isn’t some conspiracy, it’s happening. So what do you have to say about that? https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.dw.com/en/passivation-how-serbia-is-eroding-the-rights-of-ethnic-albanians/a-69638770

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Sokola_Sin@reddit

They’ve been labeled both for the sake of political correctness, but go ask them what they actually consider themselves, buddy. There are fewer of them left than guests on my cousin’s wedding list, so maybe quit yapping.

I just linked you a great documentary on it, they consider themselves Serbs or Montenegrins, mostly Serbs it seems. LMAO

And do you actually have proof of these so-called laws, or are you just using that to dodge my other two points?

Yes, they existed in your country. Do I need to prove that the sky is blue too?

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Traditional_Eagle554@reddit

Sending a YouTube video and calling it an proof seems ridiculous and a bit slow move on your side. I can send you tons of documentaries on Albanian. Motherfucker I don't speak your language.

That's not an argument proof of existence or shut the fuck up. Serbs favorite sport, victimization.

And it seems like you're ignoring my point. Why are you destroying the Albanian minority in Serbia right as were speaking? Europe should know about it.

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Sokola_Sin@reddit

The only victimization here is yours. There are Serbs in Albania, and there were plenty more. If you actually care and aren't just arguing in bad faith (which you are) you could easily employ AI to translate the documentary. And yes, the documentary is great proof since it shows the people telling their stories. It's not great for someone who doesn't want to know.

And it seems like you're ignoring my point. Why are you destroying the Albanian minority in Serbia right as were speaking? Europe should know about it.

I'm ignoring you derailing the discussion and changing topics, but here you go: you're not oppressed because you can't falsely register your extended family of 60 people on one address in Serbia. Turns out UDI's come with the cost of dealing with the aftermatch of Uranium consumption on your own.

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Traditional_Eagle554@reddit

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Lakuriqidites@reddit

That is whataboutism at its finest.

No minorities were wiped out, forcefully displaced or assimilated in Albania.

That is not the case with Greece and its ethnostate politics.

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Sokola_Sin@reddit

No minorities were wiped out, forcefully displaced or assimilated in Albania

That's a crazy thing to say. Maybe you need to educate yourself on your history? Like that of the Aromanians and the destruction of Moscopole, or the general politics of assimilation?

The Serbian-Montenegrin minority, during the past century, has been the subject of injustices by the state structures of that time, while institutional repressive measures led to discrimination and attempts to assimilate this minority. This repressive policy of assimilation begins with the regime of King Zog, who banished schools in Serbian language and continued with the communist regime, when the Serbian-Montenegrin nationality was forbidden, along with the names and in particular the family names ending with the characteristic suffix "ich", as well as the right of education and the right of information in their mother tongue, the right to maintain contacts with the mother country, the right of religion etc

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Lakuriqidites@reddit

We are not talking about oppression attempted by the government Nemanja but about total displacement or total assimilation of the population.

You know like the attempted genocide your compatriots tried in Bosnia and Kosovo.

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Sokola_Sin@reddit

We are not talking about oppression attempted by the government Nemanja but about total displacement or total assimilation of the population.

Yeah, that's what that sounds like. Where are the Aromanians of Moscopole, the center of Aromanian culture in the Balkans? Gone. Where are the many Serbs? Assimilated.

You know like the attempted genocide your compatriots tried in Bosnia and Kosovo.

Genocide in Kosovo? Hilarious.

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Lakuriqidites@reddit

Aromanians are where they always were in Albania. A lot for them left for Greece for a better life after the communism fell.

Half of Kosovo Serbs had Albanian ancestors, too. And I bet they all fought the Ottomans, too. Just like Albanians did. However, Serbia taking over and slavicizing them doesn't mean that they fought for Serbia. They fought for their homeland, were later ruled by Serbs and assimilated into Serbs.

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YpogaTouArGrease@reddit

-''If Albanians fighting for their own homeland (which was not a state back then) solidified a Greek consciousness, why was there a need for homogenizing Greek policies?''-

Because of pure nationalistic bullshit.The standardisation of the greek language,the linguistic problem between kathareuousa and demotic(search it up) and its enforcement are all examples of french nationalism,which was of course copied by many states at 19th-20th centuries.
On one hand ,standardisation and official language helped solidify a state,on the other it erased every other language and dialect; be it Albanian,Bulgarian,Turk,Aromanian or even Greek( oh yes).

Since the 1970s and the abandonment of Kathareuousa,such persecution has stopped all together.However,urbanisation truly finished off most dialects in our state.

-''Albanians fought for the liberations of their homes, whether they happened to be in modern borders Kosovo, Serbia, Macedonia, or Greece.

They didn't fight for a Greek-speaking state, because it didn't exist back then. The region was called Greece, and it was their homeland.

Half of Kosovo Serbs had Albanian ancestors, too. And I bet they all fought the Ottomans, too. Just like Albanians did. However, Serbia taking over and slavicizing them doesn't mean that they fought for Serbia. They fought for their homeland, were later ruled by Serbs and assimilated into Serbs.''-

You are right in what you say.However,what most Albanians(more like most people here) who argue here do not understand is the difference between Greek and Albanian ethnic consiousness.
For albanians,blood and language matters the most. Especialy after the the formation of albanian nationhood and statehood,religion matters little if not at all.
For Greeks,it is greek-orthodox christianity first and foremost,as a continuation of the Rum Millet and the Byzantine Empire.
So Arvanites(I am mostly talking about those in southern Greece),over many centuries,shifted from albanian to greek ethnic conciousness,thanks to their Orthodox Christianity.

I think the word ''assured'' would be better than ''solidified'', my bad.

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VirnaDrakou@reddit

Οταν οι προγονοι μας εζησαν, αναμειχθηκαν και έκαναν οικογένειες με ντοπιους πρεπει να παραδεχτουμε στην κοπελια οτι ειμαστε αλβανοι;

Δηλαδη να πανε και οι σερβοι στους γερμανους για τους σορμπς που επι το πλειστον ειναι αφομοιωμενοι και να λενε « ε εσυ εισαι σερβος/σλαβος αντε παραδεξου το».

Αυτη η εμμονη ειναι κακη, οπως και η εμμονη που εχουν ελληνες με τουρκους αν ειχαν προγονους ελληνες. Η OP απλως θελει μια αλβανικη νικη και να αποδεχτουμε πως το μεγαλυτερο ποσοστο των ελληνων ειναι αλβανοι που μας αναγκασαν να αλλαξουμε εθνικοτητα.

Εμενα με προσβάλλει οταν γνωριζω ποσοι προγονοι μας πεθαναν και θυσιασαν τα παντα για την ελευθερια μας μονο και μονο γιατι πριν απο 400-700 χρονια ηταν αλβανοι οι δικοι τους προγονοι.

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Odd-Independent7679@reddit (OP)

They shifted from Albanian to Greek because of assimilation. Either from the Greek Church, or from the Greek state. And yes, the church fought Albanianism, too.

That's all I'm saying. It seems most Greeks/Arvanites don't wanna accept this. And if they do accept it, they do not want anyone to mention it. It's like a past they wanna hide under the rug.

I see a similar thing happening with hardcore islamists here. First, they will tell you "the Ottomans never occupied us", then "yes they occupied us, but we changed our religion freely (without being forced)", and when you present facts to them of forcefull assimilation, they'll start attacking you and speaking rubbish.

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YpogaTouArGrease@reddit

----''They shifted from Albanian to Greek because of assimilation. Either from the Greek Church, or from the Greek state. And yes, the church fought Albanianism, too.

That's all I'm saying. It seems most Greeks/Arvanites don't wanna accept this. And if they do accept it, they do not want anyone to mention it. It's like a past they wanna hide under the rug.''------

Yes ,it is assimilation,gradually and over many years .Mostly from the Eastern Orthodox Church and its use of Hellenistic Common. It did fight Albanianism,by banning the language and murdering people like Noli. As it did to the Bulgarian Exarchate.

I wouldnt say they want to hide it.Most remain oblivious and arent that good history students.

---''I see a similar thing happening with hardcore islamists here. First, they will tell you "the Ottomans never occupied us", then "yes they occupied us, but we changed our religion freely (without being forced)", and when you present facts to them of forceful assimilation, they'll start attacking you and speaking rubbish ("Islam is the greatest thing that happened to us! Thankful we're not heathens like the Christians anymore).''---

Damn,history does like to rhyme. You could remove words like Albanians,Islam and Christians,replace them with other ethinc groups and religion and you would have a real world case.

Yeah,I once experienced this ''islam is the greatest'' from both secular and muslim Albanians in this sub, when they tried defending islamic circumcision.
People are willing to defend a fucking bronze-age blood ritual,just so they can say 'fuck you,we are different'' to Serbs/Greeks/whoever-the-fuck.
(again ,this could happen with every ethnic group in the world-stupidity and illiteracy are universal)

Odd-Independent7679@reddit (OP)

I agree. I also hope you and your grandparents realize you have been doing the same to Albanians.

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hungry_4_tacos@reddit

Well know we haven’t, but I’m sure others have.

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VasiliasBezos@reddit

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It shouldn’t matter where I am from, what I say still stands. Frankly, your comment and the disgusting messages I am receiving from Greeks on here (telling me I should have been killed) are beyond abnormal. You all need serious help…

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Muted-Listen6707@reddit

I need help because I pointed out there was an Albanian-Macedonian war in the early 2000s? I didn’t send you any hate messages so why are you accusing me? I didn’t do anything to you. Wasn’t that your own answer to the fellow Albanian in the comments above? It’s not my fault some whack job send you a hate message.

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Iapetus404@reddit

omg so terrible.....

Dude hundreds of thousands Greeks who lived in Balkans...literally murder or forced to be bulgarians, ,Albanian,Serb or from your country....!!!!

Your people(SNOF-NOF,СНОФ) kill tens of thousands Greeks in the WW2 and Greek civil war 1946-49

Same with more 1 million Greeks in Anatolia which they genocides from the ottomans 1914-1923

Same with the Greeks of Crimea,Odesa etc who send them to far east from Tsar and communist Russian regimes.

same with more 200.000 Greeks of Egypt who lived there since of Alexander the Great era...forced to live from they homes by Nasser's regime. 1956-57

Chill....stop cry and spread lies and black propaganda.

You are not special or victim you want to presenting!

Your people also had the hand in full of blood of innocent people

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hungry_4_tacos@reddit

Another great example.

Just to help your peanut brain for a second - I never said in general Macedonians were part of other wars. We don’t deny we were.

Most greeks and nearly all diaspora Greeks deny ethnic cleansing occurred by them.

You know, most Western Europeans have generalisations about Greeks that I always thought were unfair, but reading your intelligent comment, they make sense now.

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VirnaDrakou@reddit

Listen i am very sorry to what happened to your grandparents and fellow slav macedonians, i do believe that and know that (in my opinion too) that they had the worst oppression out of other minorities.

I don’t know what we can do about it, i am no politician but hate doesn’t help. Also my condolences on the recent tragedy where 100 people died, horrible thing.

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Iapetus404@reddit

τι ζητας συγνωμη απο τον γκεμπελισκο ρε φίλε?

θα παραδεχτει αυτος ποτε τα εγκληματα που κανανε στους βαλκανικους,στον ΒΠΠ ή στον εμφυλιο?

Μην πέφτεις στην λούμπα της προπαγανδα τους!

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hungry_4_tacos@reddit

Thank you for your kind words. I think acknowledgment as you have done is the best way to mend what’s happened in the past, that way we can all move on and support each others unique ethnicities.

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Niocs@reddit

sad to hear if true. I hope you also recognize the massacres commited by you during WW2

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hungry_4_tacos@reddit

Perfect example of the ongoing sarcasm and rudeness we experience.

DARK_M123@reddit

They do the same thing to Macedonians living in Aegean Macedonia, especially after ww2 when the Macedonian language was banned to be used in public

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Odd-Independent7679@reddit (OP)

I know. And then Macedonians did the same to Albanians.

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Uncle_Andy666@reddit

Yeah to their is agean maedonians in australia.

Heaps of them.

I dont know full history of them.

Did the bulgarians in greece face this sort of stuff?

It's interesting how nationalistic regimes try to reintroduce certain events and promote their politcal interests through their agenda. Of course Greece went to the obvious period where one language should define a whole nation. Arvanites or people speaking albanian had to learn greek and use it in their daily lives. Slavs and bulgarians too. The ones that didn't agree with it for example migrated to North Macedonia and maintained their cultural identity, while others stayed in northern Greece near Florina etc. Turkish speaking population too. But one thing that all the little-knowledged, superficial and careless people, who like reading and listening to stories, which make them feel like they literally got robbed and Greece owes them something, forget is that this process happened to every single nation-country (probably in the world). Take for example France. Have you ever searched what happened to the italian speaking population in south east? Have you ever searched what happened to the south west part with the Basques, who spoke euskera or the Occitans and now their population has diclined significantly? The same thing did the spanish, to their same people and to their Basques. Ever heard of forced assimilations in Germany, Poland, Russia, Turkey etc? And you get that comment from a Pontic Greek, whose ancestors also got their hands beaten if the spoke pontic greek! (a true greek dialect which has roots in ancient Koine greek). It doesn't have to do with Greece in particular. Many similar regimes at that time did atrocities even to their own people. Don't look at it the way your nationalistic politicians want you to, because you only do them a favor and you are preparing the ground for further conflicts and the next potential sad event.

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StamatisTzantopoulos@reddit

Things a bit more complicated. Greek nationalists don't want to admit that the Arvanites spoke Albanian and came from Albania (at least the country we call Albania today, as they came over during Byzantine times). Albanian nationalists on the other hand don't want to understand that the Arvanites willingly assimilated into the Greek nation BEFORE the establishment of the Greek state, mainly through the Orthodox faith and by and large with very little coercion; this is why they fought on the Greek side during the Greek revolution. It's like thinking that the descendants of people who migrated from Germany to the US in the 18th century are still German...The people who speak in the video have a Greek national consciousness, not Albanian. There was a bit of coercion to abandon the language, especially during the two dictatorships (the Metaxas one in 1936-1939 and the junta in 1967-1974) and mainly through the education system but that's not unique to Greece or even the Balkans. Nearly all European states tried to homogenise their poeple within their borders linguistically, for example Spain and France. Untily a few decades ago for example the Breton language was practically prohibited in Brittany, France.