What is it about ‘15 minute cities’ that makes people so angry?
Posted by GoodGrapeVimtoFiend@reddit | AskUK | View on Reddit | 1016 comments
I’m not half as well informed as I should be on this, but how I understand it is that the end goal would communities where you can walk to access things you need on a daily basis rather than commute via train/bus/car and tbh, that sounds great. Not sure exactly how they’ll achieve this, but surely working towards something like that is what we need?
Rubberfootman@reddit
Some of the nutjobs who are against 15 minute cities seem to think the government will somehow try to confine us to our particular area.
That doesn’t make any sense, but some people don’t need things to make sense to believe them.
gereedf@reddit
well its too late, this system of totalitarian oppression, car number plates, were already introduced years ago, the arrival of communism is nigh /s
TrackNinetyOne@reddit
This is pretty much entirely it It was high jacked by right wing nut jobs in the US as a plan for the government to keep everyone under control and trapped in their district unable to move around
It doesn't really apply in the UK or most of Europe, in my opinion, as you could argue there's already 15 minute cities everywhere, I definitely couldn't and wouldn't want to live in a place you were reliant on a car or transport to get everywhere day to day
It's ideal having all shops, gyms, restaurants, whatever, within walking distance but that doesn't translate to the car obsessed US for some bizzare reason
Beneficial_Nose_7934@reddit
Car obsessed US and Canada are huge and you need a vehicle to get around. Some cities you don't but the majority you do. Most places are not built on top of eachother.
Ok-Salary-5128@reddit
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2026/01/24/labour-opens-door-stalinist-15-minute-cities-across-britain/
MyDadsGlassesCase@reddit
I've spent most of the last 30 years living in cities and every neighborhood I've lived in has been a 15 mins city, even to the point of A & E and swimming pools (ok the last one is more like 30 mins)
The irony is that the 15 mins cities man you aren't dependent on a car like in the US, and yet it's somehow portrayed as a loss freedom.
---Cloudberry---@reddit
Having lived places where you have to drive for everything, it’s the opposite of freedom, especially for anyone too young/poor to have a car of their own. Even with a car it takes so much more time and planning for everything when things are far away. Those places were shit for public transport too naturally.
Slyspy006@reddit
The 15 minute city idea is explicitly a US idea, the intention being to provide more local services and amenities and so reduce the number of car journeys. I have no idea why the idea, or at least the conspiracy theories around it, has taken root in the UK.
Top-Broccoli-5626@reddit
It is not a US based idea at all. It was compiled by an academic based in France called Carlos Morello.
nathderbyshire@reddit
Hunger Games baby
BakedOkra@reddit
This aged like milk
thebadgerandthebee@reddit
Yes, because you must trust your government, without question! 🤦♀️Did the Covid years teach you nothing? Have you read the UN Agenda 30 objectives? They are all about far less room for freedom in the name of climate change. Mission creep also seems inevitable. People get twitchy, not least because people with power tend to want more of it, and there can be a striking lack of competency, decency and vision when greater systems of control become implemented. It’s not unreasonable to want to have and maintain, decent levels of freedom. And it’s reasonable to have a healthy level of cynicism towards those who govern us. Successive U.K. governments have shown us they cannot be trusted implicitly. It would be silly to assume otherwise! They’re only human after all, and wildly fallible.
Ok-Salary-5128@reddit
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2026/01/24/labour-opens-door-stalinist-15-minute-cities-across-britain/
Rubberfootman@reddit
Brand new account. Link from The Telegraph which uses the word Stalinist in the headline.
Bot junk.
boudicas_shield@reddit
This is it. These conspiracy theorists think that a 15-minute city is going to turn into some post-apocalyptic “zone” system, where you’re not allowed to leave your “zone” without permission from “Them”.
It’s a good idea for a novel, but there’s little basis in reality, as most of these things go. I have to say, as an American who emigrated to the UK, I’d hoped that I would meet with fewer crazy people in doing so. Alas, this has not proved to be the case. Nutters are ubiquitous, it would seem.
Ok-Salary-5128@reddit
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2026/01/24/labour-opens-door-stalinist-15-minute-cities-across-britain/
LambonaHam@reddit
Whilst not that extreme, it's disingenuous to suggest that there's no attempt to deincentivise travel by private vehicle (i.e. car).
Mysterious_Floor_868@reddit
There are private vehicles that are not cars, you know. The government has basically no control over my bike.
LambonaHam@reddit
I do know. That's why I specifically said "(i.e. car)".
boudicas_shield@reddit
I’m American; I actually miss driving a lot. It’s a necessity at home. I see it as a vanity option here in the UK city in which I live. I don’t think getting rid of the reliance on cars is a negative.
LambonaHam@reddit
You must live in a city centre.
Try living somewhere that doesn't have a direct bus route, let alone a train stop.
boudicas_shield@reddit
I don’t live in a city centre. You seem to be misunderstanding me. I miss driving but cannot afford a car. I therefore wish for a 15-minute city. I hate not having usual car access the way I would at home.
LambonaHam@reddit
Sure, as would most people I assume. But that's not a reasonable or practical goal is it?
Making things easier for people who don't have, or don't want to use a car is fine. When you start punishing people who do drive, and by necessity, then it becomes a problem.
Rubberfootman@reddit
Unfortunately, the internet has allowed village idiots everywhere to communicate with each other, and be influenced by the sort of agencies who seek to influence village idiots.
It won’t be exclusive to UK and US village idiots either.
boudicas_shield@reddit
Yup totally agree. I see a lot of American hate on this sub, but it’s the same the world over. Every country has its dumbasses, as we’d say.
MBS-F1@reddit
This is it. This is by far the worst aged comment on the whole of Reddit. Bravo.
Spare_Conflict6362@reddit
LMAO!!!!!! ALWAYS go STRAIGHT to “if you don’t agree with me you’re racist!” I feel bad for the actual victims of racism these days because yall have made that word completely useless so now majority of people don’t even take it serious when someone says it. Between that and all the complete, 100% proven race hoaxes
Beatrix_-_Kiddo@reddit
Maybe they'll be numbered districts and every year the government will ask for a volunteer from each district to fight it out for a big Greggs hamper 🤷♂️
Rubberfootman@reddit
You should write a book about that.
Michael_Goodwin@reddit
"The Slightly Peckish Games"
SentientWickerBasket@reddit
It tends to get confused - possibly intentionally - with traffic calming measures in cities like Oxford. They're implementing a system of zones and cameras to discourage people driving through the centre of the city and instead use the ring road. Residents get a certain (quite large) number of free passes between zones a year and then get charged.
The panic insists that this is 1) a central government policy and 2) will be applied everywhere. It won't; they're targeted towards neighbourhoods in major cities (London, Birmingham) and entire small cities (Oxford, York) that have old layouts that were never invented for every household to drive two cars.
Bainshie-Doom@reddit
Yeah Oxford being dumbasses was what really messed up the idea. They tried to implement (Possible money grabbing) stupidity under the name of the 15 minute city, which was the worst implementation of the concept (As it would literally financially trap people within the city).
This now means any other mention of the idea is then compared with this stupid idea.
capitalboth@reddit
It absolutely doesn't 'literally financially trap people within the city' - this is exactly the sort of rhetoric that is used by the 15 minute city conspiracy theorists.
Care to elaborate on what you mean?
Bainshie-Doom@reddit
Creating a situation that in order to leave an area, you must pay extra money, has the potential to financially trap people who live within this zone if they're unable to pay.
All they needed to do was offer full complete access for all residents within the area, but they didn't.
capitalboth@reddit
I'm struggling to see where the extra cost is; where in the scheme do people have to pay extra money to leave an area?
FunRub598@reddit
Similar scheme to ULEZ you pay to enter and leave, logical thinking please
capitalboth@reddit
That's not a thing. Nothing in the Oxford scheme charges people to enter and leave the areas. Be kind, FunRub598, and have a good day.
FunRub598@reddit
Apologies if I was not clear enough I should’ve emphasised it’s similar to ULEZ, not applicable to Oxford but to London. I just wish people connected the dots. Have a lovely day too!
strum@reddit
Don't confuse cars with people.
7148675309@reddit
I was thinking Oxford as well - although until the Botley Road reopens the traffic gates are not going to start. If I remember correctly Oxford residents get 100 days of use.
You already can’t drive through the city centre (and been like that for at least 20 years) as you can’t drive down the High Street - but now you’d be forced to use the ring road for journeys that are much further out. Some of the gates make no sense - the Marston Road for example.
Bad_UsernameJoke94@reddit
I was gonna say, I remember watching Top Gear as a kid and they said Oxford simply wasn't designed for or wanted the car.
malcolite@reddit
“The city that hates cars”
claireauriga@reddit
There are two major challenges for driving in and out of the city right now:
The major road coming into the city on the west side has been closed for over a year, directing all traffic to the north and south roads as there are limited bridges over the river.
The Park and Rides don't quite serve the function they need to. Instead of queuing for half an hour to get to the city-centre car park, I can wait 15 minutes for a bus and then queue for half an hour to get into the city centre along the exact same road.
malcolite@reddit
This exactly.
What’s more, we’re expected to pay for the P&R and the bus. Parking should be free if they really want us to use it - the eastern P&R is largely an unsurfaced and windswept patch of gravel in the middle of nowhere - so it’s clearly just an exercise in gouging. It’s not even in convenient walking distance from anywhere of interest. The buses are irregular and unreliable (I once missed an interview because my bus was 40 minutes late). Using the P&R would effectively double the length of my commute, and that’s not something I am willing to do. The bus lanes are full of bottlenecks, where the bus lanes end because of restricted road width, so going by bus is no quicker than driving. Add to that that, return bus tickets are not transferrable between different bus companies, as if we should all be hyper-aware of which company runs an approaching bus. The council seems unable or unwilling to hold the bus companies’ feet to the fire.
claireauriga@reddit
Yep. It may make me part of the problem, but right now I still usually go to Westgate for parking because I'll have to sit in the queue to get into the city either way and my car is more comfortable and convenient, and faster for getting home at the end of the day.
barrybreslau@reddit
I live in a similar city and i wish it was like Oxford. Cars do laps looking for free parking on residential streets and the wankers do 70 everywhere.
malcolite@reddit
I appreciate the aims, but now traffic has been concentrated on to the main routes, which were not designed to cope it so they’re usually at a standstill, even the buses. All the traffic pollution has likewise been concentrated around those routes, most of which are residential. Public transport - is disjointed, expensive and slow, so there’s little impetus for locals or commuters to use it. It all seems a bit ill-thought out.
7148675309@reddit
Given the amount of jumping around they did in that episode (they clearly cut it in some jumbled order in the edit suite**) I wouldn’t necessarily trust what they say. That said I grew up in Oxford and traffic has been a problem for many years.
** I always think of the first episode of the Grand Tour - where he takes a flight from Heathrow to LA and drives to the desert. I have taken that same BA flight many times and lots wrong with the sequence…
Cakeo@reddit
Have you just found out that tv is edited? Of course they closed the road they are trying to film lol
Key_Effective_9664@reddit
25 years it's been like that. I hated it when they brought it in. Was so convenient to drive
Mukatsukuz@reddit
I've seen people in my local Nextdoor groups saying the same sort of thing about Newcastle because all the main bridges across the Tyne are now in a Clean Air Zone with the other route being the Tyne Tunnel, which you have to pay for. So, if you own a non-compliant vehicle, the only way to go from Newcastle to Sunderland without paying an extra fee is to drive all the way out to Scotswood, making journeys a lot longer.
Doesn't make the city a prison, of course, but a lot of the conspiracy theorists are claiming it does.
krappa@reddit
Botley road is still closed? It's been a couple years since I've been through there but that area was such a mess
sjw_7@reddit
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/czen7g5e9dpo
The bridge by the station closed in April 2023 an not due to open until August 2026. It was only supposed to be closed for six months so things have gone badly wrong.
bopeepsheep@reddit
Completely cut off from the city centre for many purposes - if you want to get a bus you have to walk under the bridge and along to a temporary bus stop (that has been in use for at least 2 years and will probably be at least another 18m). Pretty poor disabled access as a result of that.
7148675309@reddit
Road still closed to cars according to my parents!
claireauriga@reddit
From my perspective, a 15-minute city is a good idea if it's done with carrot, not stick. If cities encourage small business, retail and public service hubs throughout neighbourhoods, that would be great. If they just restrict traffic without actually providing any of the things to make it possible to stick within that 15 minutes.
Eternal_Demeisen@reddit
Must be comforting to be able to predict the future and know for sure what money stealing precedents the government will use to take the piss ever further and what ones they won't.
Mysterious_Floor_868@reddit
I've got an ingenious way of avoiding vehicle charges in Oxford. It's called "getting a bike"!
Crooklar@reddit
But that’s not real 15 minute cities!🌆
strolls@reddit
I don't think that's confusion, is it?
Sensible traffic policies are part of it because you can't have a walkable neighbourhood if cars are hooning through it trying to take a shortcut??
ValleyCommando@reddit
When you say free passes , what does that entail? Does it mean they can only use the road when the authority permits them too ? Then banning them from using it other times …?
RatsOfParis@reddit
No they have a certain number of passes that allow them to travel through for free, once their passes have been exceeded, they are charged. There’s no blockage or actually restriction, except for financial penalties
LambonaHam@reddit
Financial penalties are a restriction.
ValleyCommando@reddit
Ah I see. Like carbon credit type tax?
LambonaHam@reddit
This is a large part of it. There's significant overlap between the people who (vocally) support 15 minute cities, and people who support traffic limitations akin to Oxford.
You say it won't, yet you don't provide a basis for this. Meanwhile as I said, there is significant overlap between the people who support both of these.
Jamericho@reddit
It’s also only applied to 6 small filter roads between 7-9am & 3-6pm daily. It’s 5 hours a day and only on 6 filter roads. People are simply ignoring this (likely in bad faith) and claiming it’s a 24 hour ban.
colei_canis@reddit
Oxford's problems are far deeper. One of the main roads in and out of the city has been closed for nearly two fucking years when it was meant to be closed for six months thanks to catastrophic incompetence on all sides performing upgrades around the train station. The city isn't designed for cars to begin with, it's designed to defend against mediaeval conflicts and with one of the main roads out of use pressure increases on all the others.
The Abingdon Road just can't carry that much traffic, and it gets absolutely fucked up for buses and cars alike much of the day. Oxford likes to advertise itself as a 'cycling city' but really it's a horrendous hodge-podge of pedestrians, cyclists, buses, and cars all jammed in together in a situation that can't ever improve because the whole point of Oxford is the Luftwaffe left it alone and it's this pretty and historic city - something which inherently precludes cars ever working well there. Public transport is wank if you're coming from outside the city, partly because buses get fouled up in the same traffic but if you're trying to get to the east of the city from say Abingdon the routes mean it's a pain in the arse even when it does flow freely.
It's a really difficult situation to balance, even the most competent council would struggle to find a solution that works for everyone. Oxford's council probably couldn't competently decide which colour crayon to shove up its nose.
zone6isgreener@reddit
That is a system of rationing so don't underplay it.
Crafty-Sand2518@reddit
Same people that though the EU was going to take away their curved bananas and straight cucumbers.
Jlaw118@reddit
It’s the chemtrail conspiracy theorists that’s absolutely blow my mind for being complete and utter idiots. They’re 1000X worse than flat earthers in my opinion.
FunRub598@reddit
Just like everything else in life, some conspiracies are true and should not be classed as a conspiracy and some are false hence the word conspiracy. Nowadays nobody does any research and accepts the “truth” from puppets. The gov may not be poisoning us via weather but weather control is real mate. The actual scientific term is called cloud seeding…..
Adept_Deer_5976@reddit
The government and the civil service are absolutely fucking useless. It always amazes me that people think they are competent enough to perpetuate these massive conspiracies.
You have to be exceptionally think to simultaneously hold the view that the “ruling elite” wanted us to stay in the EU, but then they are also able to cover up aliens and chem trails.
I think it gives people some semblance of reassurance in a world that is changing too quickly for them to believe that there’s an organ of the state that has this kind of power. The reality is that governments just move from dealing with one crises to another
Frequent-Struggle215@reddit
I've worked for the Illuminati for decades and, believe me, we couldn't organise a piss-up in Hollow Earth if you sprayed us with Adrenochrome from 60,000 feet all year round... and the billions we've invested into Flat Earth and then some pastor from nowhere takes half a dozen streamers to the Antarctic and its all wasted time, money and effort...
I was chatting to a Demon just last week and he's fed up and ready to quit it all... says he has more impact making novelty cupcakes based on Romantasy novels and embedding subliminal messages in the frosting... not to mention all his friends in the Vatican have left the Cabal and trotted off to the Secret Space Force retirement home on the dark side of the moon. The Nazis left there years ago and their last-guy-standing on Earth has gone all "Howard Hughes" trying to catch up to them on Mars...
You can't keep a good conspiracy running these days... there's no passion left and the algorithm is against you.
Chicken_shish@reddit
"Why" is always a good question.
i encountered one who believed in chemtrails and thought that. "They" were attempting to desertify Southern Europe using cloud seeding.
He was absolutely stumped by 'Um, OK, why would they do that?'
lonehorizons@reddit
Also why would government officials want to spray themselves with chemtrails? They live here too 😂
Visual_Stable3692@reddit
Love this.
I think this applies to any conspiracy that would involve more than a few people. I specifically love the conspiracy theories that involve large groups of scientists all agreeing to hide the truth about something - for some reason.
I've been around scientists and academics for my entire working life, and I've never encountered a more argumentative section of people. Getting them to agree on ANYTHING at all is a miracle. Let alone on a massive worldwide conspiracy.
mkmike81@reddit
That's what they want you to think....
mkmike81@reddit
Sarcasm by the way, just in case it wasn't obvious.
Adept_Deer_5976@reddit
Exactly - if any profession class has its contrarians, it’s academia
Fun_Aardvark86@reddit
As someone who works in Government, I can’t get a working pen from the stationary cupboard so we sure as shit didn’t mastermind a Covid conspiracy, so Bill Gates could implant the population with microchips.
Adept_Deer_5976@reddit
Absolutely fucking bizarre innit … this simultaneous view that government is both incompetent and ruthlessly capable of these grand conspiracies
alltorque1982@reddit
Accidentally fell down one of these rabbit holes the other day and was flabbergasted. There is a whole clump of people who were saying Stephen Hawking was a fake person, put there by lefties etc, possibly an android or puppet, and the same people were then saying he was on Epsteins island. WTAF.
Jlaw118@reddit
Alright that’s definitely enough Reddit for today 🤦🏻♂️ what even are these people? 😵💫
spamjavelin@reddit
These are people of the land. The common clay of ~~the new West~~ Middle England. You know... morons.
Negative_Equity@reddit
Unexpected Blazing Saddles reference
Ok_Donkey_1997@reddit
15 minute cities are a very good idea in principle, but in practice there have been places where this idea has been implemented in a completely bullshit manner.
The basic idea of a 15 minute city is that everything you need is available to you within a short walk/cycle and public transport should be affordable and easy to access. The way this should be promoted is to create environment where everything is available and then people choose to ditch their cars.
In practice there are places were city governments have just introduced fees for people using their cars within the city. This is a regressive tax and it sucks for people who do not live within a short walk of the shops they need to access, or their place of work.
On top of this, you have conspiracy theorists throwing a load of confusion into the mix, and this makes things even more difficult for the people who are being cut off from their shops and places of work, facing increased taxes and now they are also being called conspiracy theorists because no one wants to take the time to understand the issue and differentiate between the people with a legit complaint and the cranks.
Insane-Membrane-92@reddit
Congestion fees are not about "15 minute cities". They are parallel ideas, not the same.
Ok_Donkey_1997@reddit
Oh, they are different? If that is the case then I guess we will never understand how people who are being hammered by a regressive tax could get caught up in a conspiracy theory that resonates with their lived experience.
Insane-Membrane-92@reddit
"hammered by a regressive tax"
Yeah, you're not biased.
Ok_Donkey_1997@reddit
I earn good money and the congestion charge is no big deal for me. I also had the financial freedom to choose to live in a place where I can cycle to work in 15 - 20 mins, and I actively choose to go into the office because I have a nice cycle trail and I enjoy the activity.
Other people do not have that luxury. They can't easily move house or change job. If the policy to get them to give up their car is all stick and no carrot, then that is a bit shit for them.
Insane-Membrane-92@reddit
I had a read up about London's congestion charge. It's a bit of a mixed bag results-wise, but I don't think your reasoning is sound. The charge has a 90% discount for people living in the zone, further reduced by paying in advance. It only covers the very centre of London too. You'd have to be mad or bad to want to drive there.
I would be keen to hear your ideas on reducing traffic in cities which didn't have an element of restriction involved. Even making public transport free wouldn't solve traffic because some are emotionally wedded to driving in their little protected box.
Ok_Donkey_1997@reddit
I'm mostly in favour of the congestion charge and LTNs, they've generally been successful and most people approve of them, but the congestion charge is a regressive tax with increased surveillance, and some LTNs were implemented by blocking off streets with bollards. Some people have been done over by them.
If you are actually interested in understanding how opposition to something as benign as 15 minute cities took hold, then this is a factor that you should consider.
Insane-Membrane-92@reddit
I am not particularly interested in the opinions of stupid people with low critical thinking skills, no. That's not aimed at you.
dualdee@reddit
possibly androids or puppets?
OccasionNo2675@reddit
I read through the conspiracy sub for the shits and giggles. I find it fascinating what people genuinely believe no matter how much evidence is presented to them to counter their belief. It used to be very entertaining, however it's become overrun with a lot of right wing conspiracies now and it's just not quite as entertaining. Still fascinating though how people buy into such awful ideology.
iTomWright@reddit
I used to like the sub when it was silly little conspiracies like pigeons aren’t real and jellyfish are actually aliens, but now it’s too real and personal. Talking about kids being eaten etc
EdgeCityRed@reddit
That sort of thing is blood libel, and is in fact ancient conspiracy theory that has resulted in very, very bad things.
lonehorizons@reddit
Yeah it always boils down to basic antisemitism doesn’t it.
EdgeCityRed@reddit
Rather often, yes.
cyberllama@reddit
I'm pretty sure flies have been replaced by tiny drones.
lonehorizons@reddit
Yeah unfortunately conspiracy theories have all been merged together into one big far right American one, like the Amazon of conspiracy theories.
average_as_hell@reddit
Sadly several members of my family have become these sort of nut jobs. I think in my mothers case it is because she has spent so long working in Government and seeing how disorganised it all was. She know longer trusts "experts" because how they are used and manipulated withing certain circles of government to secure funding.
The problem being is that the people she now takes her information post dumb shit on Facebook. Worded in such a way to illicit an emotional reaction from her she then fails to research it and just accepts it because, perhaps, she enjoys the rage.
Sgt_major_dodgy@reddit
Conspiracies used to be fun, like you'd read about them and be like "imagine this was true lol" or they would be true and you'd be like "those bastards"
But now it's just unhinged, people not giving their kids vaccinations because a woman who washes her face with her own piss says not to, or that the government secretly wants to erase white people or something but when asked the reason why they just reply "do your own research"
DontDrinkMySoup@reddit
I'm convinced that sub is 80% bots, its kinda crazy how much obvious Kremlin propaganda is in there
alltorque1982@reddit
Totally agree, I found it lighthearted and silly initially, but the further you go, it just becomes disturbing and sad. And the current US situation is just dividing Americans more and more, feeding into more conspiracies!
Cheapntacky@reddit
The best question you can answer one of those nut jobs is why?
jobblejosh@reddit
If you want the real answer?
People fall into conspiracy theories usually because of some deep-seated dissatisfaction or anxiety. The modern world is a chaotic place and the universe is ultimately uncaring and random. Why do pandemics, natural disasters, etc happen? Why do bad things happen to generally good people? Why do bad things happen to them?
Now, most people have a safety net, be it family, friends, coworkers, colleagues, money saved away etc. Through this safety net, they can usually cope with whatever trauma is flung their way (depression, unemployment, natural disaster, loss of earnings, medical issue etc).
Some people lack a significant enough safety net, and without it, they become Vulnerable to Manipulative Cult-like Groups. They often start by saying things like 'We know the answers', 'We know why you've had bad things happen to you', 'It's not your fault', 'We'll make you successful' etc.
Then starts the brainwashing process. If there's a central leader, it's often managed deliberately and purposefully. If it's a more autonomous/decentralised movement (your conventional conspiracy theorists etc), then these behaviours are often copycatted and unwillingly/unknowingly passed on and reinforced through group dynamics.
Check the BITE model for abusive relationships and you'd be surprised at just how much of it applies to these MCGs. I won't go into any detail but suffice to say if you look at any particular group of people who aren't listening to any kind of logic, you'll find at least three of those behaviours listed in there.
This extends to conspiracy theorists, Multilevel Marketers, extremist political and religious sects, Actual Cults, Cryptobros, doomsday preppers...
And the reason that you can't logic someone out of these positions is because the logical-rational part of the brain has been eroded away and ignored as the more powerful emotional part of the brain that looks for social connection has been hotwired into making the person flat-out ignore any evidence or thought that would go against their worldview; it's a self-protective mechanism put into overdrive.
The only way you can help someone like this out is by removing their attachment to the MCG and helping them become part of conventional society again.
Status_Jellyfish_213@reddit
you've also just described organised religion
lonehorizons@reddit
I’m a pretty strong atheist and when I was younger I might have agreed with you, but not now. I’ve got friends and family who are Christians and Muslims, and I’ve also wasted a lot of my time trying to reason with flat earthers online.
The flat earthers are nothing like the religious people (though lots are religious), because they literally can’t talk about anything other than their conspiracy theory. If you look at their Facebook profiles my religious friends are all like “Had a great day at the park with the kids then went home and watched a film together”, whereas the flat earthers’ profiles are just a long string of antisemitism, far right hate speech, posts about NASA, the US government controlling people’s minds by putting fluoride in the water etc.
It’s totally different being in an actual cult to believing in an organised religion.
vinpetrol@reddit
“The main thing that I learned about conspiracy theory, is that conspiracy theorists believe in a conspiracy because that is more comforting. The truth of the world is that it is actually chaotic. The truth is that it is not The Iluminati, or The Jewish Banking Conspiracy, or the Gray Alien Theory.
The truth is far more frightening - Nobody is in control.
The world is rudderless.” ― Alan Moore
Gellert@reddit
Hawking is an example of why socialised universal healthcare is a societal benefit. Thats bad for the kind of person who wants to screw you out of your money because a single national healthcare service has all the bargaining power: go through us or fuck off.
People fall for it because they think they'd take home more money if we went full libertarian dystopia.
You see this sort of shit constantly but seemingly nowhere as obviously as in the US where you have parents of victims of school shootings being told they're crisis actors whose kids never existed by gun lobbyists because god forbid Colt take a hit on sales.
GNRevolution@reddit
I wouldn't even bother engaging, every why? question always has some answer wrapped in mental gymnastics and bs "research" to justify their half-baked ideas.
DotSpecific120@reddit
I mean he was actually on the island that is a fact but he is a real guy
alltorque1982@reddit
As a Cambridge resident, can confirm I saw him hundreds of times, and used to serve him where I worked, all I can say is he was very realistically made.
pencilrain99@reddit
Ha so your claining that Cambridge is real place now and how can you claim to have seen him hundreds of times when numbers only go up to 69
opitypang@reddit
I used to live in Cambridge and he nearly ran me down in the street once in his jet-propelled chair.
alltorque1982@reddit
Luckily you had space and time to move.
Insane-Membrane-92@reddit
He watched the Big Lebowski at the Regal when I went.
opopkl@reddit
Let me tell you something else. I've seen a lot of spinals, Dude, and this guy is a fake. A fucking goldbricker.
TheLoveKraken@reddit
So the real guy was on the island and remote piloting the fake one we saw in public??
Quick-Rip-5776@reddit
No. He was on another island but hosted by Epstein. There’s nothing to suggest that Hawking went to Epstein’s private island or made contact with Epstein after he’d been charged with trafficking children.
Prince Andrew however…
sputnikmonolith@reddit
He was a total horndog too by all accounts.
So I bet he was getting his end away on the island too.
What an image.
JetFuel12@reddit
Even if he was on Epstein’s island I can’t imagine he would have been able to do much..
Smooth_Sundae4714@reddit
You should try being Australian. There is an entire group of weirdos who think we don’t exist and are just paid actors.
No-Cost-1045@reddit
But you are all paid actors, and you all live on either Ramsay Street or in Summer Bay. I've seen you on the TV.
Smooth_Sundae4714@reddit
Very true. It is always summer in summer bay.?
TeHNeutral@reddit
What do they think about kiwis? Is it just aussies that don't exist? My family in Perth are just permanent hallucinations from a teenage acid trip? Is reddit even real?
Smooth_Sundae4714@reddit
I think most just think New Zealand is a state of Australia so they don’t exist either. They must be mailing my cheque to the wrong address because I haven’t been paid.
YorkshireRiffer@reddit
There's been plenty of psych studies about people who believe conspiracy theories and the outcome of these studies is typically:
"Conspiracy nutjobs are typically people with low intelligence and very average lives, who don't have much control or command over something, so believing they are the self-certified experts on conspiracies gives them something to have control over and feel superior about."
Just a shame they're so confident about utter bollocks.
elethiomel_was_kind@reddit
So who did Pink Floyd have on their 90s classic The Pulse!?
Are they in on it!?
OwnCurrent6817@reddit
The government are putting chemicals everywhere! I madea cup of tea this morning and chemicals were coming out of the kettle! Then i took a hot shower… more chemicals fogging up the bathroom. You even see chemtrails in the sea behind boats now!
Farscape_rocked@reddit
I have a van, a neighbour asked me if I'd pick up an american style fridge freezer for him. We set off to go get it and it turns out he's a conspiracy nut. Flat earth, chemtrails, new world order, all of it.
My favourite bit was when he told me the government was going to end private ownership of houses. That they would force-purchase all our houses and we'd have to rent off the government. I told him that sounded great and asked him when it'd happen, and he was a bit flummoxed, and then I told him it wasn't going to happen because banks, not governments, hold the power in end-stage capitalism so the more people who have a mortgage the better because then the banks actually own all the property. He couldn't really cope with that one and he hasn't spoken to me since.
Kapha_Dosha@reddit
My question to myself reading this is, when did people stop minding their own business or keeping their thoughts to themselves. How did all of this come out in the space of a fridge-collection trip?
Jlaw118@reddit
In my last job I worked in transport management, and I worked really closely with two of the training managers.
Over the course of a week they’d train new staff up, mainly delivery drivers, and usually on an afternoon on one of the days, I’d get invited in to do driving licence and background checks on the drivers.
Got one American guy once. Somehow from me doing his driving licence, he got talking about 9/11 theories, chemtrails, social credit scores, digital currencies. Finally finished up about Covid theories but he got abruptly stopped by the training manager as he’d lost his daughter to Covid and really didn’t have the time of day for this guy after that.
But I’ve forever questioned how on earth “can I just run a quick licence check on you?” Turns into a conspiracy theory debate
will_i_hell@reddit
Probably because it's all these nuts think about, their paranoia is all consuming to the point that it's their only topic of conversation, every other topic you can think of starting a conversation about will be turned by them, I have a couple of friends who turned this way I no longer see because of it.
Farscape_rocked@reddit
I guess cos it entirely consumed him when I asked him how he was it just leaked out. He was genuinely concerned that the government were going to force him to give up his house and rent it from them.
SilverstoneMonzaSpa@reddit
https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/jet_fuel.png
MaxDaClog@reddit
I'd have kicked him out and told him to get one of his mates to help.
ShelleysSkylark@reddit
My mother believes this because she's very lonely and spends most of her time on Facebook. She says planes create clouds ('chemtrails') because they block out the sun and that means that we have to buy vitamin D supplements.
IntelligenzMachine@reddit
The government aren’t competent enough to perform this level of conspiracy- imagine Liz Truss trying to control the weather lmfao
_Denizen_@reddit
I see your chemtrails and raise you to the planet Nubiru, which allegedly is on a 2400-year orbit that soon will draw close to close to earth. On this mystical planet are aliens who created humans by splicing ape genes with lizards. No idea how people can belive this shit 🤣
Ur_favourite_psycho@reddit
My son had it written in a book from school that they've been making clouds sinces the 50s.
DeezWuts@reddit
Disagree, there's atleast reasons someone may believe chemtrails vs no actual reasoning for flat earth that isn't based is basic misunderstandings.
Agencies do spray chemicals in the air, geoengineering has been a thing for a while to help combat climate change, so chemtrails gud.
In terms of government doing something nefarious... I mean they always have 😂 but in specifics to chemtrails the UK gov did actually spray chemicals over a bunch of cities (and the London underground) in the 40s to research how a chemical attack would effect the country and how it would travel etc, and unfortunately some of the chemicals they used were later found to bring carcinogenic.
In 1952 british scientists almost accidentally dosed the Isle of Lewis with live plague bacteria because they assumed the wind wouldn't change direction, couple years later we decided it might not be best so moved our chemical testing to the Bahamas and Nigeria.
Difficult_Cap_4099@reddit
If this was possible… we’d be living in Spain…
If this was possible, the NHS would be in a great state.
PapaJrer@reddit
I mean, controlling weather by dropping chemicals from plans is a thing that happens. Just not in the way most chem trail folk think.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloud_seeding
Difficult_Cap_4099@reddit
I know, but that’s a specific result only and most people don’t know about it.
When people talk about the government controlling the weather, one can point out that if they had that ability they’d avoid natural disasters or extreme cold which has an impact on election results… and yet they don’t.
It’s pointless arguing with people believing in that, I very much prefer to explore the ramifications of their beliefs and why we’re not reaping any of the potential benefits like rain only during weekday evenings and glorious Spring days year around. ;)
GoogleUserAccount2@reddit
They're still going?
HaydnH@reddit
I have one of those on my FB feed, it's always a screenshot, "scientific study proves X"... If that's the case then why not post an actual link to the god damn study so I can actually read it?
TunedOutPlugDin@reddit
Do your own research /s
GavUK@reddit
I've had a few people who engaged with and tried to push their conspiracy theories onto me (particularly for the couple of years I traded cryptocurrencies where I came across a lot of people/groups that fell into that category - it seems to attract them [and scammers, of course]).
Anyway, after telling me to "do your own research", they didn't like that I was pretty good at researching things on the internet and finding generally balanced and credible sources while discounting opinion pieces and hyperbole, so therefore I was coming to a rather different conclusion to their own.
HaydnH@reddit
I've experienced exactly the same. I believe part of the issue is that a lot of their "theories" are apparently intertwined. "They're using chem trails and vaccines to control our minds so that we won't stand up against being forced to live in 15 minute cities all so that we keep buying McDonalds and Bill Gates can keep selling them PCs to cook the burgers with" or whatever. If you disprove one part of the web, their whole world is at threat of collapse.
chicaneuk@reddit
I just have to pipe up in any discussions about chemtrails to say... whilst I unequivically don't believe in chemtrails and think all the people that go on about them are crazy, like many conspiracy theories there is a kernel of truth about them and a reason I suppose why they exist...
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/how-the-british-government-subjected-thousands-of-people-to-chemical-and-biological-warfare-trials-during-cold-war-10376411.html
Pretty interesting to read about.. and I suppose it's probably fair to say the average chemtrails nutjob doesn't even know about this sort of stuff. They just latched onto the conspiracy and believe it for whatever reason.
TeHNeutral@reddit
Are those... Thomas the Tank Engine masks?
GavUK@reddit
I mean, the released gases and any unburnt aviation fuel from aircraft probably isn't healthy (but obviously dissipates into a large volume of air, making it a very low concentration except perhaps around airports), but that's also the case with emissions from cars (but being at ground level is - as I understand it - worse) and, of course, this isn't what the conspiracy theorists are going on about..
TeHNeutral@reddit
No, these ones I've had someone tell me don't exist. You just can't win.
doubledooter@reddit
Not a conspiracy theorist at all, but unfortunately the UK government is actively funding research into what effectively amounts to "chemtrailing" right now lol
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/mar/12/solar-geoengineering-uk
FlyiingDutchmaan@reddit
While the conspiracy theories are usually very far fetched and ridiculous, cloud-seeding is a very real technology that can change weather patterns and has been widely used globally.
laidback_chef@reddit
There's a guy i know who keeps posting about chemtrails and how they make it rain. Funnily enough, it's always sunny in these posts. The only person I know is getting sun over Christmas.
caspararemi@reddit
One of the stars on prime time British soap posts about chemtrails and the government affecting the weather and it’s absolutely mental.
caffeine_lights@reddit
It's weed addled thinking I reckon. I have someone like this on my FB, I added her about 15 years ago, she was fairly sensible back then, a bit hippyish and left wing and yes had some non-mainstream opinions, but nothing completely insane. Homeopathy, clean eating, (but weed is fine cos it's natural innit) school and 9-5 is a drone factory, be free, don't be just another brick in the wall etc.
Covid hit and she ramped up the homeopathy and clean eating stuff into actual craziness and conspiracy thinking and she is now in a pattern where she'll post nothing for a few days/weeks and then suddenly will repost dozens of things from groups, all of them totally bonkers and accompanied by increasingly deranged posts in all caps. I reckon we're just seeing her go on a scrolling binge.
chatterati@reddit
Well they did regulate on it! For all the good of the EU they didn’t half waste money on some very useless things
GoodGrapeVimtoFiend@reddit (OP)
Oh god lol
PurpleFirebird@reddit
Just want to say, Vimto is awesome. The perfect beverage
GoodGrapeVimtoFiend@reddit (OP)
Nothing but truth there!
SojournerInThisVale@reddit
That was the Commission Regulation (EC) No 2257/94, which was introduced in 1994 and set quality standards for bananas. It classified bananas into different categories (Extra, Class I, and Class II) and included requirements on size, shape, and condition. It stated that bananas should be “free from malformation or abnormal curvature. It was repealed in 2008; apparently even the EU realised they’d overreached
strum@reddit
This was part of an agreement amongst suppliers, distributors & retailers. They required a standard definition of goods, so that each stage of commerce could predict what they were to deal with.
They called for EC regulation, so they could carry on in confidence.
SojournerInThisVale@reddit
And yet the EU abolished the regulation that you feel is so important
strum@reddit
It wasn't needed any more. It had achieved its purpose.
On_The_Blindside@reddit
They didn;'t say they felt it was important, they were explaining why it existed.
Or does knowing something and explaining mean you now support that in your world view?
bertthefish@reddit
Some of the legislation was basically copied off companies like Tesco, specifically their own buying requirements. The basic idea of the legislation was logical - too many imperfections could signify something is wrong with the produce, and could spread if there was an infectious disease as the cause.
KONING_WILLEM@reddit
That's is something else. There was a myth going around in 2015 that the EU would only allow straight banana's to be sold. Complete hogwash.
Note that rules on straight cucumbers and bend bananas where originally suggested by the UK to the EU.
lifeismadness22@reddit
THERE ARE STRAIGHT CUCUMBERS???? i thought all of them were bent to the right😱😱😱
PackageOk4947@reddit
Hey I have nothing against straight bananas... :D
fruitcakefriday@reddit
Gullible people, basically.
SuperTed321@reddit
Don’t forget their sovereignty…
tempingupstairs@reddit
I mean, you say this, but the fact is that the government DID quite recently confine people to their particular area.
I obviously don't believe any of this nonsense about 15 minute cities, but it's hard to deny that their paranoia is without at least some merit
Rubberfootman@reddit
That was so we didn’t kill everyone grandparents, it is completely different.
tempingupstairs@reddit
Yes, but you have to accept that the lockdowns were vital and necessary to accept that and for some people they weren't either of those things.
Like I said, this isn't my POV, but it's important to be able to understand where people are coming from in situations like this and the simple fact is that they believe the government could enact another martial law situation to attempt to lock people down to 15 minute cities.
Talysn@reddit
the biggest irony is that if you ask the same people if they want "garden cities" they'll certainly be in favor of such a sterling british concept....
But, garden cities are what we would now call 15min cities (or accessible cities, or walkable cities), arranged in a nodal network. (and have nothing to do with gardens, and have never been actually implemented...).
chatterati@reddit
That’s a brilliant conspiracy theory haha
Low_Resolve9379@reddit
Have you looked into what these policies actually are? If you do, you may be disabused of that notion. Look into the policies implemented in Oxford. They're just making it harder to get around by car. That's not just something that would wind up tinfoil hatters, but anyone who simply doesn't want to be unnecessarily inconvenienced.
The main issue with these policies is that they're totally unnecessary. Oxford already was a '15 minute city'. We're not America, we don't have the kind of car-centric urban design that exists over there. Even our most "carbrained" city (Milton Keynes) is infinitely more accessible as a non-driver than, say, Phoenix or San Antonio.
These policies are not necessary or desirable in a British context. It's a bit like being told by your GP you're being signed up for chemotherapy when you don't have cancer.
wtfomg01@reddit
Have you ever driven in Oxford? It's already awful to get around by car, there's no making that better without policies like this.
LambonaHam@reddit
Policies like this make it worse, not better though.
wtfomg01@reddit
How? By moving traffic from two lane roads to bypasses?
Low_Resolve9379@reddit
You're not understanding the situation correctly. Driving is already inconvenient in Oxford. These policies are intended to discourage car use, not make it easier. That isn't simply my interpretation of them, either - literally the first paragraph on Wikipedia:
This was never a problem in Oxford. It was built before the car. Driving has always been less convenient in Oxford than walking, cycling, or public transport. In other cities - particularly in the US, Canada, and Australia - a 15 minute city-minded approach may actually be helpful. In Oxford they're a solution in search for a problem.
wtfomg01@reddit
If people get discouraged there will be less cars using those roads making it easier for those who need to and have the pass or are willing to pay.
LambonaHam@reddit
The fact that you're citing facts, and being downvoted for it, is a perfect demonstration of the issue.
The people pushing for '15 minute cities' clearly aren't capable of acting in good faith, so why should anyone trust them that it's all above board?
AnselaJonla@reddit
As a non-driver, I agree.
I end up going there for work every now and then. Sometimes with a driver, sometimes without.
Last time I was there, I had to walk from the train station to where I was meant to be. It was pretty much a straight shot from point A to point B, along wide pavements and through underpasses.
On a previous visit I was going from a hotel outside of the city centre to a store that was even further out, a bit more of a complicated route. But I still found myself going under main roads rather than crossing "at grade".
Electronic-Goal-8141@reddit
The people who think that are just the sort who should be confined to a 15 min walking radius of their house 😄
elethiomel_was_kind@reddit
I imagine if the people who think that actually exercised, the unprecedented rush of blood to their brains would allow some critical thinking and flush out the rot…
doc1442@reddit
They’d also realise 15 mins walk is a quite sizeable 1.5km radius
mkmike81@reddit
Don't you be using those foreign measurements of distances now! How many furlongs is it?
---Cloudberry---@reddit
I don’t know but it’s 1,000 bootlaces.
MTFUandPedal@reddit
A lot.of them can't walk very far in 15 minutes either....
GoodGrapeVimtoFiend@reddit (OP)
Now there’s an idea!
zone6isgreener@reddit
Except the big plan put forward did include rationing of journeys in it. Going through a zone would have had repercussions.
duskfinger67@reddit
You are confusing traffic calming measures with walkable neighbourhoods.
A 15 minute city is to say that day to day amenities should be within 15 minutes of your homes.
Traffic calming like you discuss are where restrictions are placed in city centres to ensure that through traffic goes around the city, not through other neighbourhoods. No rationing of any journeys, just alternative routes.
Additionally, no proposal for 15 minutes cities or otherwise have suggested that people would not be allowed to leave their zones.
zone6isgreener@reddit
Not I'm not, and I never even hinted at people not being allowed to leave.
duskfinger67@reddit
You are confused, because you comments refer to the ideas of traffic calming, not 15 minutes cities. The Oxford scheme only rationed driving through other zones, there was unrest if Ted access via foot, bike, or bus to all areas of the town.
zone6isgreener@reddit
I'm not confused at all. As to your "only" comment, you just agreed with me that the scheme had rationing so you've lost sight of what you are arguing against now.
Have a think and then come back to me. I won't take a response posted in the next thirty minutes so you can do that, so don't bother with another quick fire reply
duskfinger67@reddit
I am not going to revisit this in 30 minutes just to appease you.
You have misunderstood the nature of the Oxford proposal, and the very idea of the 15 minute city.
Have a splendid day.
stuaxo@reddit
"Looking at your comment histories you are usually racist too" I do this too, and it is true almost every time.
lonehorizons@reddit
Not only that, every single comment they leave on any post is always negative and miserable. Cheer up guys!
stuaxo@reddit
I live next to a narrow bit of the road - these are probably the same guys who wake me up when they won't let each other past - it's pretty funny to wake up to two white van drivers going "youuuu caaant" "no, you get out the van arl faackin hit yer".
There's help for the few vehicles affected by ULEZ, unless you happened to be running a business that the tax man didn't know about, in that case it could be more tricky.
KelpFox05@reddit
It's horribly silly how some people need to make up conspiracy theories about terrible things the government is doing in order to have stuff to gossip about. The government is already doing plenty of terrible things, talk about those to get your conspiracy theory kick instead.
lonehorizons@reddit
Yeah all these things distract people from actual conspiracies which are mostly financial and a lot less sexy, like the covid PPE scandal. What happened to Michelle Mone? Why hasn’t she been dragged back to London to face an enquiry and possible criminal charges? Meanwhile these idiots are trying to convince us not to vaccinate our children.
Mindless_Count5562@reddit
You’re more generous than I am, I think they’re too stupid to comprehend reality so latch into convenient lies.
OldLondon@reddit
And all these people use Facebook almost exclusively which is the most tracked, targeted and insidious platform in existence
GoodGrapeVimtoFiend@reddit (OP)
Exactly - the government is more than busy with all the shit it’s doing publicly.
SojournerInThisVale@reddit
That’s something that happened in very recent memory. Not against fifteen minute cities, by the way. The biggest problem with them is the marketing. Calling them walkable or mixed use cities would overcome a lot of the problems
thejadedfalcon@reddit
I wonder why... could it have something to do with all the deaths?
SojournerInThisVale@reddit
So I guess that means it never happened then?
Mindless_Count5562@reddit
It’s a complete false equivalency. Lockdown happened without 15 minute cities, why on earth is it a part of the conversation?
SojournerInThisVale@reddit
As said, I’m not against 15 minute cities. I’m simply pointing out the government has done what you claim is a crazy conspiracy within very recent memory
duskfinger67@reddit
Our building also have a fire drill yesterday, so there is a very real fear that we will be evicted onto the street.
thejadedfalcon@reddit
Because of a health hazard that every reputable medical organisation on the planet said needed to happen sooner to avoid needless loss of life. I'm sorry you got Covid 45 times, the brain fog is clearly affecting you greatly if you need this explained to you. I can get out the crayons if you'd prefer?
On_The_Blindside@reddit
No it means it's completely irrelelvent to normal times. Obviously.
stuaxo@reddit
Exactly, they are not angry at what 15 minute cities are, but they've believes some dark money funded absolutely mental version.
It's the same disinformation system (whatsapp groups, stickering etc) that pushed anti-covid, then anti 15 minute cities and any traffic calming LTNs etc the "bladerunners".. just people who are manipulated by a lot of fucking bollocks funded by arseholes.
Prestigious-Gold6759@reddit
Bladerunners remove the ULEZ cameras which is excellent public service
stuaxo@reddit
They chopped down the traffic light near me + it broke the crossing sequence, so it didn't go green on the crossing on the way to my daughters school, so all the parents with small kids had to just cross the busy road in the rush hour - it wasn't even on a ULEZ boundry - probably they cut it down because there was a cycle lane.
Bladerunner was about a future where earth was so polluted everyone had basically left, so it's appropriate that the group gave themself that name.
Important_March1933@reddit
People are idiots, they really are.
Few_Engineering2820@reddit
Some of the nut jobs that are for 15 minute cities are the same nut jobs that were calling for harder/longer covid lockdowns /restrictions and pro illegal immigration.
ValleyCommando@reddit
Serious question. Do you think they are implementing these 15 minutes cities for your benefit ?
Rubberfootman@reddit
I think it is more likely that than it being a massive government conspiracy to confine us to our local area.
LambonaHam@reddit
Why?
LemonRecognition@reddit
Because the massive government conspiracy makes no sense even from a dictatorial perspective.
LambonaHam@reddit
Remove the emotion attached to the work conspiracy, do you still hold the same view?
Have you never experienced a government restricting freedoms in order to better control a populace? Heard of it happening?
Why is the notion that a government, even a modern British government might do something like difficult to consider? Because you find it unpalatable?
MattSR30@reddit
Because this is a conspiracy that wouldn’t give them any control.
How does you living within a walking distance from a Tesco give them control over you?
LambonaHam@reddit
If it was such a nutjob conspiracy theory, people like you wouldn't be so desperately creating strawmen would you?
MattSR30@reddit
How is it a strawman? Replace ‘Tesco’ with anything else.
How does living in a small town give them control over you?
LambonaHam@reddit
Because no one is suggesting that living within a walking distance from a Tesco (or anywhere else) gives the government control over you.
Oh look, yet another strawman.
MattSR30@reddit
Fine, I'm legitimately not trying to create any strawmen, I am genuinely trying to get an answer from you because I truly do not understand your position. I'll reframe it like this:
What worries you about the concept of 15 minute cities? There is nothing that I can see that remotely resembles government control, so what is it that you see that has you concerned?
pajamakitten@reddit
Do you think the government would be able to keep that secret from the public?
LambonaHam@reddit
What secret?
pajamakitten@reddit
That fifteen minutes cities are actually an attempt to confined us within a local area. There is no way the government would be able to hide that from the general public.
LambonaHam@reddit
Who said it was a secret, or that it's the goal?
xXxR3alR3ptilianxXx@reddit
It happened in China during corona. It's a valid concern.
On_The_Blindside@reddit
China
...
during corona
...
For fucks sake mate, seriously? This is the UK, not fuking China, so no it's not a "valid concern".
xXxR3alR3ptilianxXx@reddit
Smh how is it not a valid concern?
On_The_Blindside@reddit
I can explain it to you but I cannot understand it for you.
New_Line4049@reddit
I hate agreeing with the nutjobs, but we don't have such cities yet and the government are already starting a campaign against cars. They quite clearly seem to want us not to own cars or travel by car, and are doing what they can to make cars more expensive and less practical. I hope I'm purely falling victim to conspiracy theories here, but it does seem the end result of this campaign would be restricted movement.
urlackofaithdisturbs@reddit
To be fair to the nutjobs, the government literally and exactly did this during Covid. Now they are definitely nutjobs but it’s not like they don’t have material to work with.
On_The_Blindside@reddit
I wonder if that had anything to do with all the deaths?
urlackofaithdisturbs@reddit
Well yeah, that's why they did it, but they did do it.
On_The_Blindside@reddit
So not exactly comparable to a normal time then is it?
urlackofaithdisturbs@reddit
Yes I know, thats why I called people who think the government will do this in general 'nut jobs'. But the post was wondering why people think the government would do something THEY HAVE ALREADY RECENTLY DONE, and its mad to ignore that as a cause for the conspiracy theory.
On_The_Blindside@reddit
So their reason is a non-reason.
You may as well, correctly, say they have no good reason, as they don't. Just call them out on their bullshit rather than mollycoddle it.
urlackofaithdisturbs@reddit
A bad reason isn't a lack of a reason, deliberately ignoring the reason why those you disagree with, disagree with you, is just wallowing in ignorance for the sake of a weird sense of moral purity.
yojifer680@reddit
You think the government will try to restrict your rights to move around freely? Lol, nutjob.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-m&sca_esv=cb2bd471e7c0d922&sxsrf=AHTn8zq_YVm0kqdhhHyjMybDsVVx_iNsiw:1742157788159&q=uk+low+traffic+neighbourhoods&udm=2&fbs=ABzOT_CWdhQLP1FcmU5B0fn3xuWpmDtIGL1r84kuKz6yAcD_igefx-eKq1gCPHF3zhthFomh79cFPZr7GL5iNp2GA56P4OLMlzQBs5wyqMSRRYvXId3jnqQ_ktF6u5mwEk7Wx9wrJKG0-gZ-bqAYYNMoIkheQ8WpBb41_dSXMbqEj39huOSF4T5_LR8-J3S7zvZ7snnBPkdBDEofJxoXSC643PL8zSMb5Q&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjQmezAu4-MAxXNYEEAHTbMLfUQtKgLegQIDBAB&biw=98&bih=182&dpr=3.33
LeTreacs2@reddit
Every one of those pictures is free to move through unrestricted lol
LambonaHam@reddit
"unrestricted"
You might want to look up what that word means...
LeTreacs2@reddit
Can you not move through those roads? How fat are you?
LambonaHam@reddit
Looks to me like cars would be a bit too wide to fit. If not, whoever installed them needs a new tape measure.
LeTreacs2@reddit
You think that changing a road layout is truly “restricting rights to move around freely”? changing a road layout isn’t a conspiracy, it’s literally happened since the start of roads.
Shit, half of those pictures have cars parked the other side, it’s just no longer a through road. How do you people function?
LambonaHam@reddit
Yes, because it is. Again, look up what restricted means. Hint: You being okay with a restriction doesn't make it not a restriction.
I never said changing a road layout was a conspiracy. Why are you so desperate that you would create this strawman?
In the real world, and better than you apparently.
LeTreacs2@reddit
No it isn’t. You can walk through any time you like, 24 hours, 7 days a week. Saying a car has to drive another way round does not impact your freedom at all.
I’m not straw manning, look at the context of the thread you’re in, that’s the conversation you’re ‘contributing’ to. If you don’t think that frames the points you’re making then you’re a fucking idiot.
LambonaHam@reddit
Since you can't manage it, here's the definition:
Restrict: "put a limit on; keep under control".
This is a limit, hence it is a restriction.
Yes it does. Lying doesn't change facts. You being okay with it doesn't change facts.
Can you quote the "context of the thread" where someone says 'changing a road layout is a conspiracy'? Because if not, it's a strawman (I guess that's another word you're going to need me to define for you).
LeTreacs2@reddit
Jesus fuck. This dense motherfucker.
The thread is about rights and freedoms being restricted. Can you go through? Yes, yes you can.
Also I literally quoted in the previous comment.
I have a set limit of stupid that I can deal with in a day, and you’ve taken up the whole quota. I’m out.
On_The_Blindside@reddit
Are you wider than a car?
LambonaHam@reddit
Are you smarter than one?
On_The_Blindside@reddit
You know, you are able to do other things than drive? Like, that is the whole point there champ,
LambonaHam@reddit
Am I? Oh, I never realised that 🙄
On_The_Blindside@reddit
Well evidently you're struggling with the concept given that you seem to think it's an unnacceptable option that you may have to consider not driving, and see that as some sort of restriction. It's ridiculous.
The argument of someone with no actual argument at all, frankly.
Afinkawan@reddit
Even if your point wasn't completely insane, that stopping people driving in, not stopping people leaving, so literally the complete opposite of whatever the voices in your head are saying.
yojifer680@reddit
It's both you genius. Both sides of the road are blocked.
urnangay420blazeit@reddit
God forbid cars aren’t allowed literally everywhere
StashRio@reddit
I have lived in a city - Brussels - where the concept of a 15 minute city was put into practice. This meant a lot of car restrictions. This is what I immediately noticed , as someone who owns a car and parking space.
A lot of high end business moved out almost immediately, including quality restaurants. A lot of quality restaurants are in relatively poor areas or where a lot of the flats are rented by students ; as soon as rich people stopped coming with their cars the quality restaurant trade collapsed.. these moved to other parts of the city. The ghettoisation of the city, already a problem in Brussels along ethnic community lines, was enforced across socio economic lines.
People who don’t have cars continued to suffer the same issues that they are probably not aware of. They were stuck to buying groceries and other shopping within that 15 minutes radius unless they went on special shopping trips to shopping centres, on public transport where this often involves a one hour trip to cover 4 or 5 km. While this is normal, what I have long since known is a reality was reinforced , namely these people were paying higher prices because they could not shop around as they did not have required mobility. This is especially the case when it comes to food and groceries.. for example if you only have a Tesco express within your 15 minute radius you are likely to shop mainly at the Tesco express if you don’t have a car and the prices at these express supermarkets are higher. There is also lower quality available, especially when it comes to fresh items..
Beefstah@reddit
I have no problem with 15-minute cities and fully support anyone wanting to live in one.
I just don't want to live in one myself.
As long as the idea is opt-in, I'm all for it.
FlapjackAndFuckers@reddit
Why?
Genuinely asking.
Beefstah@reddit
I like living in low density environs for which it would be impractical to try and build the infrastructure for 15-minute living.
My nearest shop is a 25 minute walk each way, and technically isn't in the same village. The nearest pub is about the same in the opposite direction. I have a bus stop 100m from my house that can get me to the local town in about 25 minutes, which has a train station that could get me to the nearest city about 30 minutes after that. I work remotely, and only need to go into the office sporadically, sometimes weeks or even months between trips in.
I have about half a dozen immediate neighbours that are close enough that I'd not bother putting on a jacket to pop round, but far enough away to not pick up their WiFi. We get on well, and help each other out, but unless one of us is actively having a party we can't hear each other.
I feel like I'm not on top of other people, and they aren't on top of me. They're present, but at a comfortable arms length that means any interaction is on my terms, and for this I am quite happy to accept compromises in other areas - such as conveniently popping to the shop for a pint of milk.
But I recognise that but everyone wants this, so for those that do prefer the higher density living, I say go right ahead and build the life you want. I'll be cheering you on...from a distance.
Cultural-Ambition211@reddit
There isn’t an intention to turn villages, hamlets, and random houses into a 15 minute city.
Beefstah@reddit
No, and I never said there was. Saying I don't want to live in one does not mean I'm rejecting the idea itself. I'm just saying it's not for me.
The original question was "Why are people angry?". The answer is fear - fear that there is a desire for everyone to live in such cities, and that choosing different is considered wrong.
The truth is this isn't the case...but it's also not wrong to say there aren't some noisy voices saying exactly that. /r/fuckcars can be a good source of that extremist viewpoint
Cultural-Ambition211@reddit
Why not? You do realise you aren’t confided and if you wanted could continue living exactly the same way you do right now?
Beefstah@reddit
I've just responded to my other reply as to my reasoning, but I don't feel it's practical to build the infrastructure necessary for the low density living I prefer - and that it's not reasonable to ask for it to be built either.
Upper-Radish-9177@reddit
I'm not against 15 minute cities but I never want to live in one. The population density isn't something I enjoy
Rubberfootman@reddit
That is completely understandable, we don’t all want to live in the same type of place. I prefer more population density than you do.
Upper-Radish-9177@reddit
I think the problem with discourse more generally is that people think that if they don't like it then the other people are stupid because they must've misunderstood something. This applies to this discussion but more generally, too, and it almost always happens on both side of the discussion. When people figure out that most things come down to opinion rather than fact the world will be a better place.
I can see the benefits of these living spaces for everybody whether you live there or not. It is nice to be able to go to a central shopping location even if you do want to get far away later 😊
5im0n5ay5@reddit
There's an excellent podcast by Jon Ronson in which he explores this and other strange tales from the culture wars https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p0h24kbq
trish1400@reddit
Ah cool, I'll check that out. 99 PI did one on 15 minute cities too and the guy who coined it all got death threats. 😬
hddfhtvcs@reddit
Bit of an over generalisation at the end there.
I think a person's activity on Reddit is directly correlated to how weird they are irl
Rubberfootman@reddit
That generalisation was, at the time I made the edit, 100% based on looking at their comments.
OkayYeahSureLetsGo@reddit
Here it's that, but the "way" they're doing it is you won't be allowed to park in the other areas?? But people are rabid about parking, which always makes me wonder why they don't just live a bit further out with a driveway instead of terraced housing on a narrow street while owning 2 vehicles
Puzzleheaded_Act7155@reddit
Happens in china, if you your social credit is too low you can’t enter/exit certain districts
NewtonPost1727@reddit
That wild, any references?
Puzzleheaded_Act7155@reddit
BBC did a storyville on it, it’s on iPlayer, all about surveillance and social credit system, they have gates around districts you have to scan to get in and out of.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001wkcr
DistributionMost6109@reddit
Do you even remember covid lock downs?
OnMeHols@reddit
You mean the infection control method? That worked?
DistributionMost6109@reddit
Did it "Stop The Spread"?
OnMeHols@reddit
It did its job in stopping it from completely overwhelming the hospitals. And hence why they didn’t become permanent?
DistributionMost6109@reddit
I'm not sure that follows but regardless I'll leave this conversation here.
OnMeHols@reddit
You’re implying that because of Covid lockdowns, thats why governments want to control our movements in 15 minute citys. But the lockdowns ended? If it really was all about “control” why end them?
Jamericho@reddit
Yes, I walked further than 15 minute from my home every day. Do you think the government are going to spend trillions on cement/steel to partition the whole uk into 15 minute grids?
ValleyCommando@reddit
Well they are doing it in Oxford already. According to a comment above.
Jamericho@reddit
What does traffic calming measures have to do with confining people to a certain area? It’s pushing traffic out of the city centre and onto ring roads.
ValleyCommando@reddit
Don’t shoot the messenger. He claims local residents have a certain amount of passes per year to use the road. If they exceed those passes, they are then required to pay a toll to use the roads. One could possibly call that a carbon tax. But what do I know. It’s just a conspiracy isn’t it ?
Jamericho@reddit
So based on what you’ve just described, wouldn’t you say a limited amount of passes to use an area is the opposite to being confined to an area?
You are also going on someone’s comment without doing any of the research yourself. Oxford city centre is older than motor vehicles and isn’t built to handle the number of vehicles currently on the road leading to huge congestion. They have implemented filter areas (Each filter will cover a very short section of road and cars filter point at any time without a permit). These zones are only applicable during PEAK hours of 7-9am & 3-6pm (not 24 hours) and just means that private cars have to use outer ring roads and avoid the city centre.
How is forcing traffic away from an area the same as being confined to it? They are the opposite ideas.
ValleyCommando@reddit
You are getting confused. I didn’t describe anything. I was simply repeating what Sentiment wrote above. But besides that. Limiting passes to residents with the threat of having to pay to use your local roads , is absolutely the definition of confining them to the area. I mean how the fuck can you not see that. It’s the U.K. government we are talking about. It won’t end there I can promise you.
Jamericho@reddit
You replied to a comment of mine stating just that - that these people believe 15 minute cities are literally confining people to small areas. I’m not confused in the slightest. Again, you haven’t read the actual scheme. It’s limiting access to FILTER points but all other roads aren’t affected. Nobody is forced or confined to an area, they are just forced out of the city centre for 5 hours a day and on to outer ring roads. This is the issue, people see something and overreact without taking time to read it. It’s less restrictive than places that say, close off a whole street for bus lanes or make them one way.
ValleyCommando@reddit
I think it’s time you googled the frog in the pan metaphor. As I said , this is the U.K. government we are talking about. I promise you it won’t stop here. You have to be complete naive to believe that.
Jamericho@reddit
You could have just said you still haven’t bothered to read what the trial is, despite it being explained by several people and being linked to it.
ValleyCommando@reddit
I know exactly what it is. It’s just amusing to read the comments making out it’s all a conspiracy. While simultaneously describing it as the very thing the conspiracy theorists are trying to warn you about. 😂
Jamericho@reddit
Please explain how 6 filter roads requiring permits for five hours a day, in a city centre is the same as the conspiracy theory that people are going to be confined to a small area. You are really going HAM with the mental gymnastics at this point.
You realise there are alternate routes around the filter points right?
What’s next? Wales having a 20mph speed limit in residential areas is proof they want to get rid of cars?
ValleyCommando@reddit
You’ve just done it again. Thank you….😂
Jamericho@reddit
I’ve not done anything. You’ve just repeatedly shown a complete lack of understanding of a subject and were exposed for it. Now you are resorting to celebrating non-existent “wins” as a way to exit this with your tail between your legs.
Enjoy being fearful of everything buddy, it sounds miserable.
ValleyCommando@reddit
I live in Wales and I can assure you it isn’t just residential roads. It’s a complete war on motorists. Are you actually aware of how much revenue the welsh government have raked in since that ridiculous 20mph rule ? Anyone who tries to defend that is a die hard labour supporter or somebody who failed their driving test. And this will be spread out over England very soon. It’s so blatantly obvious it’s slapping you in the face and you still can’t see it. Keep licking those boots son.
ValleyCommando@reddit
Oh no. How will I cope. Some random Fruit loop thinks I’m miserable. Off you go son. Keep running away x
Jamericho@reddit
I also live in Wales and travel 100+ miles round trip into Cardiff daily. Take a guess how much of that consists of 20mph roads? 1 mile - my street.
Do I like 20mph roads? No. Has it affected me in any meaningful way? No. Want to know my contribution to the labour government since it was brought in? Zero. The reason for zero? I passed my driving test and can drive to a speed limit.
Nobody is licking boots, everything is a slippery slope with you and my description of you being miserable still stands.
LambonaHam@reddit
Forced out, and forced in are the same thing. It's all geographical exclusion.
Doginatophat@reddit
It is a glorified diversion for non-residents/public transportation during rush hour traffic. These are small streets that are often at a stand still because they weren’t built for the number of vehicles on the road. Nobody is being expelled or excluded fella, you just drive a different route around the filters to get to the same destination. Not a hard concept.
LambonaHam@reddit
Having visited Oxford, it's a bit more than that. Restricted parking, signs on the motorway pushing people to park outside the town and take a shuttle in, etc.
It also effects residents, they just get a limited number of exceptions.
If it's not a hard concept, why are you failing to understand it? Or are you just lying?
It is objectively exclusion. That you deem it acceptable doesn't change that.
Doginatophat@reddit
Parking is restricted in most city centres because of the sheer amount of traffic that comes into the city from other places. Most parking is restricted to businesses or residents. This isn’t special for oxford.
Yes, I’m lying that people can just take a different route to get to the same destination. Oxford only has one road obviously.
Jamericho@reddit
No it’s not. It’s reducing congestion by requiring people to drive an alternate route in peak congestion times. You are still going A to B, you are just having to take another turning during rush hour. It’s not this complicated to grasp surely?
LambonaHam@reddit
It objectively is.
You are conflating 'I think this is good' with 'this is not exclusion'.
Your opinions are irrelevant, regardless of whether you support it or not, it is objectively a form of exclusion.
And yet, you seem to struggle with basic concepts.
Jamericho@reddit
I’m driving from one end of Oxford to the other at 9am. My usual route is now a filter road so I have to take a different road around it. I reach my intended destination anyway.
Where was I excluded or confined to one area? See my point?
LambonaHam@reddit
No? It's literally being confined to an area.
It's forcing people to pay to leave / enter an area. That's confinement.
Or are you going to claim that because a police car isn't physically blocking you in it doesn't count as confinement?
I can vouch for their comment, having visited Oxford and read up on why it's so fucked up.
I honestly can't tell if you're trolling, or if you just really don't understand what confinement means...
Jamericho@reddit
It’s a filter on 6 roads in different parts of the city. There are alternate roads around said filter which lead to ring roads on the outskirts. Please explain how that is confinement? Is a bus lane confinement too? How about one way streets? You have to drive around those.
I mean, it’s ironic you think i’m trolling when you have no idea what the scheme is. You don’t even know oxford has more than 6 streets apparently:
Burnsy2023@reddit
When people are just puppeting misinformation without any sort of critical thinking, the messenger should be shot.
ValleyCommando@reddit
Misinformation? I can see the local imbecile has been allowed his allotted internet slot.
Burnsy2023@reddit
I think you're being a bit harsh on yourself but sure, I'll go with that.
WynterRayne@reddit
It'd be difficult indeed to do that.
15m for me isn't the same as 15m for the people at the end of my road. Are they going to put barriers between all of the addresses in the country so that everyone has a 15m (at average walking pace) radius before the barrier comes down on em?
Jamericho@reddit
It’s exactly what these people seem to think is going to happen. Like they are going to somehow force everyone into “15 minute blocks”. The issue is that these people are just contrarian and antagonistic to ANYTHING the government proposes.
Rubberfootman@reddit
Yes, that was so everyone’s gran wouldn’t die. It’s not the same thing.
DistributionMost6109@reddit
Fuck they really sold you didn't they
Portarossa@reddit
It's a wonder you can even tie your own shoelaces.
Interrogatingthecat@reddit
Let's see...
So let's see which one you are... Nutjob, thirteen year old, or just generally trying to stir up shit?
Could easily be all three, fair's fair. I'm willing to bet on option 4: Just a dick
BeefsMcGeefs@reddit
What does that have to do with having accessible public amenities?
SillyStallion@reddit
Usually these are also the same people who have never left their country, or even their home state...
Interesting_Fig_4337@reddit
Something that is happening in Bristol as we speak. Policy enforcers "the police" are stopping and charging people to leave the zone they are in.
OrangeFlavoredPenis@reddit
Show some evidence of that? Sounds interesting
sideone@reddit
It's not happening
OrangeFlavoredPenis@reddit
The evidence or the reality? Both
Always interesting to ask as people can't pull up any source its just some tweet they saw some time ago from someone they trust for some reason.
thejadedfalcon@reddit
Oh, we all know that, but it's usually interesting to see what nonsense they spout.
sideone@reddit
No they're not. Stop talking nonsense
auto98@reddit
It's odd though, this question made me realise I have seen far far more stories about people being against them, than actually hearing people be against them.
LambonaHam@reddit
This is because the people supporting them need to concoct strawmen.
Rubberfootman@reddit
That is possibly because “that’s a good idea” stories are a lot more boring than “you are now confined to district 17” stories.
throwaway_t6788@reddit
next, you'll be spewing out that earth is not flat.. /s
Shitelark@reddit
The Earth is flat, to Muons.
SuperTed321@reddit
Ludicrous statement. We all know the earth is pineapple shaped.
Kiardras@reddit
It is flat. And carried through space on the back of four elephants, in turn on the back of Great Atuin
mccnick@reddit
The Turtle Moves
WeatherwaxOgg@reddit
GNU Terry
EchoJay1@reddit
Literally this. I have seen so many articles where the sense of a nice area to live in is countered by " they want to take our cars away! Its social control! "
1995LexusLS400@reddit
Not only that, but the rise of 15 minute cities is a US/Canada specific thing. 15 minute cities are already a thing In the UK (and the rest of Europe) and have been for centuries.
WeekendWithoutMakeUp@reddit
I've been lectured on this very subject by a family member. There's so much online telling them that they're not free and the government only wants to restrict their freedom further. They use Covid lock downs as evidence of that lack of freedom (as I see some bright spark has already done in reply to this comment). It would be funny if it wasn't so heart breakingly awful, it feels like we're in the prequel to Brave New World right now. Feed them the propaganda so they consume, consume, consume.
BenathonWrigley@reddit
As the saying goes:
‘Everything is a conspiracy if you don’t understand how anything works.’
jake_burger@reddit
The anti lockdown movement was heavily pushed by the oil industry and after the pandemic they morphed it into a kind of anti “climate change lockdown” conspiracy because things like 15 minute cities were being talked about and obviously walkable neighbourhoods with everything you need is bad for cars.
Fixeq@reddit
Open air prison how are you guys not seeing it didnt they confine us to our homes 2years because of plandemic ? how is there anyone who likes this idea ?!?
Donkey_Apple@reddit
The point is that it's about making it difficult to travel more than 15 minutes from home. The argument of course is that everything deemed necessary is available within 15 minutes walk so you have no business travelling any further, but the schemes are all about introducing movement restrictions.
Itchy-Ad1943@reddit
permit
Rispy_Girl@reddit
I'm just resting about it after seeing a post and the concern is if people are restricted to those areas. Like needing a permit to go outside them
SensitivePotato44@reddit
A 15 minute city is the eminently sensible idea that shops, doctors, schools etc should be within walking distance of homes. The right wing took that idea and aggressively misrepresented it to rile up the rubes.
PossibilityNo7912@reddit
The issue is that the implementation of the 15-minute city trials have always been just focused on closing roads, removing parking, etc - but never on actually delivering amenities within the 15-min walk.
For example, these are the walk distances to from my home to some amenities.
I would love to live in a 15-minute city, but the problem is that most basic amenities are further than a 15 minute walk. The solution needs to be to provide more local amenities, open more local GP surgeries, open more schools, open more post offices, open more shops and supermarkets, open more bank branches; instead of just closing a few roads and removing parking.
shackled123@reddit
Sorry to join late, but this was interesting so I did my own;
These are times from maps, I think all of them are overestimates.
Add a bike, and it's a pretty good shout for me, I'm not in a very densely populated area, so that time for a school is sensible, and with a bike it is pretty much 15min.
Ok-Following447@reddit
It isn't supposed to be a 15 minute walk, but 15 minute with public transportation or bike.
PossibilityNo7912@reddit
If you include cycling, then every single city in the UK is already a 15-minute city
Ok-Following447@reddit
Yeah. That is what is so crazy about all the people who are hysterically against it, tons of cities are already 15 minute cities, in fact they are what the entire concept is based on.
Impossible_Theme_148@reddit
The 15 minute concept is that you should be able to get to your amenities within 15 minutes walking - or cycling.
Given that cycling averages 3 to 5 times the speed of walking that suggests all the amenities you listed do already fit into that category apart from recycling and maybe banking.
But obviously I agree the big issue is still building amenities and infrastructure - particularly physically segregated cycle paths - and not trying to get there by artificially restricting traffic.
circumlocutious@reddit
Why do I have to scroll so far to see this?
FraGough@reddit
This had been my observation too. They're being enacted with sticks, not carrots.
Nothing has been done to make 15 minute cities more realistic. All that's happened is making it hard to commute.
NoisyGog@reddit
It was never a policy that was even attempted to be implemented. It was a thought piece.
Stop falling for the bullshit. You don’t need to be this angry or annoyed.
frankchester@reddit
Yup this is my issue with 15 minute cities concept from a person who actually lives in one of the places proposing them.
How about instead of focusing on this 15 minute city pie in the sky concept, you just start with a bus route more than once an hour that doesn’t end at 1pm on Saturdays?
divorcedhansmoleman@reddit
My nearest bus stop is 15 mins walk itself. The bus to my work place stops at 6pm and I often finish work at 10pm. I refuse to walk the 45 mins walk home at 10pm
FeGodwnNiEtonian@reddit
Sorry, you live a 19 minute walk from the nearest pub? A 55 minute walk from a Bank? A half hour walk to a School? Is this actually in a city?
potatan@reddit
So we're about half way there by your estimates. The 15 minute city is a goal, an aspiration, and it starts with some of the measures you've highlighted in order to begin to make walking or cycling a more positive experience. You appear to live in a "30 minute city", which by many estimates of quality of life is pretty good.
Less_Mess_5803@reddit
Well done if you have that much free time in your day that you could live by those figure. 80minute round trip to Lidl, hour round trip to basic facilities. There is a long long way to go to get anywhere near aspirational figures for the majority of people who don't live in the middle of a city. 40 mins to my gp, don't even start thinking about walking to nearest train station or supermarket.
potatan@reddit
You're basically hitting the nail on the head as to why a 15 minute city is a desirable aim. Imagine the free time you'd have if your daily commute was under 15 minutes, if you could visit your doctor during your lunch break, and then grab 2 or 3 days shopping on your walk home, and not have to slog to the supermarket for an hour every Saturday.
Everything on your doorstep (or close enough) seems such a win-win I don't know how people can be so set against it.
Less_Mess_5803@reddit
It's never going to happen though is it? You'd need companies to relocate to hundreds of micro sites all across the country. You'd need GP's to run for the good of patients and not as a business. That's before you even start on building more schools with smaller catchment areas etc. Visit your Dr in your lunch break??? Haha lucky if you can get an appointment when you are on your death bed 😂 now I know its all some sort of dream.
potatan@reddit
Sainsbury's Local, Tesco Metro, CoOp are all increasing their small shops count. My home town has had new schools and GP surgeries in the last few years.
I still don't know why your preferred option is to do fuck all, and to be permanently angry at the distances you have to travel to access these resources in the average town
Less_Mess_5803@reddit
Oh great, we can all shop in overpriced shops like the tiny co-ops and tescos. I've no issue with things being local, but there won't ever be everything we want and need within 15mins and to pretend otherwise is plain naivety. You don't just build new schools and break up existing ones to make travel time shorter. There isn't the money and it's not going to happen.
potatan@reddit
This whole thread is not about me specifically of course, but for me (and presumably everyone in my street):
I live near the edges of an average town of something over 100,000 people, so I don't believe my experience is particularly remarkable. It is certainly doable, and to cry "it'll never happen" over and over again doesn't make it any less likely or desirable.
AutomaticInitiative@reddit
GPs running for the good of the patients and not as a business... Ain't that the dream!
potatan@reddit
Whilst the guidelines are not specifically about you and your living situation, the point is that it's possible to reach all these places within the limits suggested, not that you need to visit all of them every day within 30 minutes like a scalded ferret in a drainpipe maze.
Slyspy006@reddit
Where is live I have a supermarket, local shops, GP and pharmacy, tip, parks, postoffice, pubs and schools all within easy walking distance assuming you are fit and well. I also have decent public transport links to the wider world. And this is not exactly a heavily urbanised area, though nor is it a suburban development.
But this is also a relatively poor area, and I wonder whether this is a factor.
InformationNew66@reddit
That is because closing down a road costs almost no money, while the rest are very expensive.
InformationNew66@reddit
It's impossible to have doctors within 15 minutes of walking distance, if you look at the map of the UK it's much rural and spread out. You can't have a doctor in every small village and development.
And even if you do have a doctor, how many doctors? Just general ones or specialized?
Mysterious_Floor_868@reddit
90% of the population live in urban areas. Of the remaining 10%, most still live in settlements large enough to support a GP practice. So we can have 15 minute neighbourhoods for 95% of the population.
InformationNew66@reddit
I lived in an urban area and had to commute 30 minutes, not by foot.
Mysterious_Floor_868@reddit
People commute in the Netherlands too. With less school/shopping/errand etc. traffic the roads flow smoother for those who do need to use their cars.
AsparagusCreative224@reddit
What grinds my gears is the number of vocal anti-campaigners who live in London, or other cities where 15-minute regions have happened organically AND they can even choose between facilities, because there's more than one in the area.
New_Expectations5808@reddit
These are the same people who object to new developments because there aren't enough amenities planned
Esoteric_Prurience@reddit
I think if central government tightened up their section 106 requirements for new developments, getting these things built might go much smoother.
Rubberfootman@reddit
That does make more sense, you can’t build 500 homes without also building an appropriate number of schools, health centres etc.
I had someone in a local sub asking about moving into a new estate in an outlying village - I pointed out that they will not be able to get their kids into the village school.
XihuanNi-6784@reddit
Sadly the planning puts housing first, not amenities. They do not build amenities and then housing. They build housing and then judge the demand on local services to see if the amenities need supplementing. I don't know who's great idea it is but that's what we've got. I suppose they do eventually build them. But yeah, I don't think "not building housing" is a good fix either.
jobblejosh@reddit
Personally I'd like to see more mixed-use properties. Blocks of flats with shops/clinics etc on the ground floor. They don't have to be dingy flats above a Chinese takeaway (not that there's anything wrong with them); you can make some perfectly nice mid-rise buildings with corner shops, or some higher rise buildings with rows of shops etc along.
The issue is that culturally we value the American Dream of a detached property in a suburb, with 2+ cars and a big garden. We live in The Living Box, we drive to the Work Box in our Driving Box, and on the weekends we go to the Shopping Box in our Driving Box, we buy everything we need, we drive home, we watch the Entertainment Box, and we repeat this until we die and are buried in The Box.
There's so much more community created with mixed use development, not only from interactions with residents, but when you live close to amenities you start to become a Regular there (no need to drive to the pub and worry about getting home when you can just walk there in 5/10 minutes, so you can pop in on a Friday evening and speak to other people (who are also there of an evening)
Spottyjamie@reddit
But there arent the staff for any new schools or health centres
Littleleicesterfoxy@reddit
Exactly
MetalGearSolidarity@reddit
Yeah, at its core it's a rejection of environmentalism in a very roundabout way that appeals to the kind of paranoiacs who are scared of 5G, vaccines, etc. It's the same reason its linked so closely to ULEZ because it encourages less use of cars.
Routine_Ad1823@reddit
I basically live in an accidental 15 minute city and it's fucking great. I have a car but I probably only use it once or twice a week.
NibblyPig@reddit
Capitalism does not work that way though, we're not living in Sim City where every 15 blocks we build a Police Station and a Hospital.
I always shop at lidl. In Bristol, it's about a 30 minute walk, which is no fun at all with a lot of shopping for the week.
So I either pay more to shop locally or I drive, but this system is designed to make driving a pain.
For people that live further out, it's gonna be even worse.
And population density is going to affect where services go, and most services are private enterprises that are looking to maximise profit, they won't build themselves where it's inconvenient, so ultimately higher density housing will attract bigger businesses.
FourLetter7am@reddit
Watch fallout or silo and and think about it....
itsDisfunktion@reddit
https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/motoring/motoring-news/england-towns-cities-face-perverse-33298136.amp
Ohhh would you look at that, the so called ‘nut job conspiracy theorists’ are right…. And all the boot licking left wing commies in this thread are wrong again ☕️
AskUK-ModTeam@reddit
AskUK is a "catch-all" subreddit for questions about the UK life and culture, but this does not mean we accept any and all questions or answers. We are liable to remove posts or comments which are best discussed in more specialised subreddits, or are simply not desired here because of the problems they bring.
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SB-121@reddit
People don't trust that the government won't make it difficult to travel outside the 15 minute range, for good reason.
GoodGrapeVimtoFiend@reddit (OP)
But what benefit would the government get from that?
SB-121@reddit
The same benefit they get from congestion charging, ULEZ, net zero, etc.
National_Yogurt_3689@reddit
so basically you hate the 15 minute city because drivers will get inconvenienced? what a shallow reason behind the hate
GoodGrapeVimtoFiend@reddit (OP)
How much would it cost to police that?
SB-121@reddit
I have no idea.
KILOCHARLIES@reddit
I would assume the big saving on maintaining and creating new infrastructure. They’ve already started this is wales where they’ve decided no new roads are to be built now as it’s too expensive and if you build them then more cars just fill them up.
zigunderslash@reddit
question mark question mark question mark profit
That-Surprise@reddit
Tax.
redunculuspanda@reddit
aries6776@reddit
The problem is imo how it is being approached. The concept of a 15 minute city is great. Everything within easy distance so you don't have to go far to live your life.
The problem is politicians want to implement it by force using the stick but not the carrot. The whole point of a 15 minute city is that you provide all the amenities, make it affordable, the cycle lanes, the pedestrian routes, and adequate public transport. You don't just ban cars for people who need to enter that zone to work without providing them with suitable alternatives that actually make them want to leave the car at home!
The way UK politicians and councils seem to be approaching the concept is to force everyone to adhere to a 15 minute city without actually providing the beneficial parts of a 15 minute city that would lead to people happily adopting to life in one. You shouldn't need to force someone into a 15 minute city, that defeats the entire purpose of one!
CharacterWest4661@reddit
Most UK cities adhere to the 15 minute concept as most were largely built in the post war reconstruction, whee the 15 minute idea was first proposed.
I am not aware of areas that have banned cars other than pedestrian zones and the insides of large shopping malls and shops.
House71@reddit
The concept isn’t evil, but they work in metropolitan centres with large populations. Trying to force them into small towns is causing hatred for the concept.
OldLondon@reddit
Some people get angry for a living. They are just crying out for the next thing to be angry about. I can 100% guarantee the people angry at this will also be angry at
Ulez
Immigrants
Megan Markle
Vaccinations
Any-Skill-5128@reddit
Ulez is a load of bollocks let’s be real
Chester-Ming@reddit
Megan Markle lives rent free in the minds of every Daily Mail journalist, reader and online commenter.
Like holy shit I’ve never seen a group of people so obsessed with someone they hate.
Slow_Ball9510@reddit
Check out r/saintmeghanmarkle for some truly unhinged lunatics.
Krakshotz@reddit
And Piers Morgan
Optimism_Deficit@reddit
They're so obsessed with her because the outlets that tell them how awful she is are also the ones providing constant updates on everything she does.
If they really don't like her, they should just stop reading the Daily Mail, and they'll hardly hear about her. They're too dense to figure this out, though.
mbdjd@reddit
Don't forget they're being purposefully riled up by social media algorithms combined with Russian bots. There are people out there intentionally stoking these flames because it benefits them financially or geopolitically.
CyanideGlitter@reddit
Add cyclists to this. They fucking hate cyclists.
mysp2m2cc0unt@reddit
Could you imagine if they saw a fully vaccinated Megan Markle cycling through a Ulez. Their heads would explode.
chartupdate@reddit
I just asked Grok for an example of this. It was everything you dreamed it would be and more.
theevildjinn@reddit
And EVs. But they also think the boss of Tesla talks a lot of sense...
Kistelek@reddit
WFH, even though they're all angry retired pensioners. Pure jealousy.
OldLondon@reddit
Oh my god so much yes. I’ve got an elderly friend of my father in laws. He lives in a purely white middle class enclave and has never worked in an office in his life but wow he’ll bang on about immigrants and “them others” ruining his town and how we all need to be in offices as that what he had to do. These people convince themselves up is down and white is black (almost literally)
Kistelek@reddit
I worked from home since 2002. Everyone legging it to safety when lockdowns hit was no biggy for me but now the business property tycoons are losing rent so everyone's being forced home, even though so many companies and organisations don't have the seats any more. My own employer decided everyone had to go back to the office, even though my colleagues were all over the country. Fortunately they screwed their policy up enough that I go offered voluntary redundancy with 12 months salary, six months before I was planning to retire early with just my pension. Thank you large former incumbent telco.
AlternativeProject88@reddit
Immigration and ULEZ are serious issues, however.
Garfie489@reddit
How is ULEZ a serious issue?
AnselaJonla@reddit
I mean, the person you're replying to supports the Salvation Army, despite being in one of the demographics that said group is against.
(Also, I am suspicious of anyone with an 88 in their username, as most of us with that birth year are not keen on using the shortened version due to its other meaning.)
tobotic@reddit
If you were born in '88 then make sure to include the century too.
Unless you were born in the fifteenth century.
AlternativeProject88@reddit
Nowt wrong with the Salvation Army, laddie.
AnselaJonla@reddit
Nowt like a self-hating gay, laddie.
AlternativeProject88@reddit
Non sequitur
Garfie489@reddit
"Alternative Project" is maybe not the best username to combine with an 88.
bucket_of_frogs@reddit
It’s also an “Obvois throwaway acount”
ReallyIntriguing@reddit
Probably a large crossover. I don't blame em
blob8543@reddit
They're also very angry about trans people. Physically violent in some cases.
_disasterplan@reddit
Diane Abbott Net zero Greggs vegan sausage roll
(I'm describing Piers Morgan, aren't I?)
Delduath@reddit
Mind boggling that we could choose to invest in energy sources that are close fucking free, and people still get annoyed about it. That's even aside from the fact that fossil fuels make us reliant on other countries, and are also making the planet uninhabitable.
not_who_you_think_99@reddit
Car loonies think it is the first step towards an authoritarian dictatorship, and that they have a constitutional right to drive and park anywhere.
Green loonies fail to realise that the concept was born in the US, where stupid zoning restrictions prevent the mixing of residential and business activities, forcing people to drive more. But Europe doesn't have this problem, in Europe shops close because of high costs taxes etc, not because of zoning restrictions.
Ok-Following447@reddit
It is just dumb and/or crazy people being very stupid. Here in my country, NL, there are also tons of these idiots who cry that there is some sinister conspiracy to get us all into 15 minute cities. They don't even realize that 15 minutes cities are modeled after, among others, Dutch cities, literally almost everybody here already lives in a 15 minute city.
The stupidity is unbearable these days.
GBParragon@reddit
It’s a change that will be enforced / driven by barriers (figurative and literal) rather than by creating new opportunities, pathways that people have an option of taking up.
No one like rules / barriers that effect / limit them but we do always need more rules that apply to other people
Evening-Collar6662@reddit
Simply put, it's about technocratic rule being imposed on people.
Fluffy_Register_8480@reddit
I don’t know, man. I’d fucking love to walk to work in 15 minutes. Last night it took me two hours to get home from work on public transport due to delays and broken trains. If I had a car? It would taken 30 minutes tops. I got home and cried 😂 I don’t think I can do it much longer
Goldman250@reddit
A major selling point for the place I’m currently renting was that it’s basically a 15 minute city - supermarkets and pub are 2 minutes away, train station about 5 minutes, shops and town centre are about 10, and work and the gym I was going to at the time are about 15. The only thing I’d want to go to that is further than 15 minutes away is the cinema. It’s fantastic.
jcmbn@reddit
They should move the gym further away, then you would need it...
Bad_UsernameJoke94@reddit
Where I am, we have a GP surgery, a pharmacy, two supermarkets, a post office, a dentist, an opticians, a pub (albeit a chain for those that matters to), a card shop, a nice range of cafes, hairdressers, etc. (Though I'm bald so)
For me, it's wonderful. I struggle with communication because of a disability, a speech impediment and hearing loss, and I know I can cope with all these being local. The people know me and can help me when I'm struggling.
I know 15 minute cities aren't going to be ideal for everyone and possibly not viable, but for me and many with disabilities, it's wonderful.
txteva@reddit
And yet, for many other people with mobility based disabilities it's going to be much worse.
sgst@reddit
Same here. Doctors, pharmacist, schools, bakery and post office 10 min walk to the east. Train station, supermarket, high street, park, cinema, restaurants, etc, 10 min walk to the south. Leisure centre & big park 10 min walk to the west. It's brilliant!
The only arguments I've ever heard against the 15 minute city concept have been from conspiracy theory morons.
Quick-Low-3846@reddit
I’ve lived in towns and cities since 2009 and haven’t owned a car since then. Every thing I need is in walking distance. Everything else I can get to by bus. I’ve hired cars for long journeys but that’s very rare because I’ll happily take the train using the money I didn’t spend on owning a car.
LordPurloin@reddit
Same!
Rubberfootman@reddit
It is the same where I live. When I wasn’t working I picked up a load of the parenting slack, and even though I don’t drive I was able to do almost all the grown-up stuff locally.
What’s not to like about that?
Illithid_Substances@reddit
The idea that I have seen people unironically posit is that the government is going to "trap" you in these walkable zones and restrict your movement outside of them. I don’t know if anyone has less insane issues with the idea
LittleSadRufus@reddit
Rather like how COVID was just a manufactured excuse to introduce a lockdown and we'll never see it lifted, they'll retain control forever once we give it up, etc etc. Except when that turns out not to be true they never question whether the other nonsense they come up with might also be a bubbling pot of horseshite.
Cub3h@reddit
That's the fun thing, look back 5 or 10 years and whatever the conspiracy was then is just forgotten.
You get people freaking out over 15 minute neighbourhoods yet they forget we were all basically forced to stay inside our homes for months during Covid. Why not just keep that going if the end goal of the 15 minute city is to lock us in?
I'm still waiting to fall over from the covid jabs 4+ years ago now.
that-vault-dweller@reddit
The bench mark has been moved to 10 years now, then we'll get super cancer.
Sadly my friend fell down this hole, so I like to point out every time the bench mark has moved.
n3m0sum@reddit
Yeah, but..........the vast government conspiracy to control the population failed, didn't it.
Because Barry, Karen, Lozza and Shelley got the world out on Facebook. Shared in Stoke-Newington.
LittleSadRufus@reddit
Shit you're right. A thousand years from now there will be a statue honouring Lozza rising up against the rogue state.
Forward-Net-8335@reddit
It turned out it was an excuse to hike prices for everything and never reset them. And to make the peasants dance with pots out of their window.
thegerbilmaster@reddit
Dunno brought in some dodgy laws on the back of COVID and tried bringing in other shit like vaccine passports
InformationNew66@reddit
I still remember the article when a jogging woman was fined by the police because she also had a cup of coffee in her hand.
And that broke lockdown rules.
LittleSadRufus@reddit
Yes the conspiracy theorists pointed to that as an example of police state crackdown, but the criminal justice system also saw it as lunacy, cancelled the fine and obliged the police to issue a full apology (the women were five miles from home but in 2021 there was no formal definition of what "stay local" meant, and a cup of coffee quite clearly doesn't constitute a "picnic" as police claimed).
Quite the opposite of what the conspiracy theorists felt was happening, but of course they don't revise their opinion when facts evolve they just move to the next thing to shout about.
justanotherzom@reddit
Could you imagine tourism, hospitality and entertainment industries just gone. Well you could go to the local to watch Barry's kid's band destroying a cover of The White Stripes for the 99th time.
And then there's work, everyone is remote working and any type of skilled based labour/production requires all staff to live within several meters of the warehouse.
Sounds like a surefire way to kill a country's economy. I guess the local coffee shops would prosper.
Top-Broccoli-5626@reddit
This is just a jumble of confusion around what 15 minute city actually means. This is not reality, or what would happen.
justanotherzom@reddit
Agreed, that's the point about it's not to trap people, like people say
coocoomberz@reddit
But the 15 minute idea is purely about quality of life for local residents, making public services, retail, entertainment etc accessible within 15 mins for all.
It's nothing to do with stopping people travelling and supporting the industries you mentioned. Not sure what your point about working has to do with anything.
More than anything it sounds like you're still with the conspiracy theorist crowd but are trying to trick people by posing 'what if' scenarios which sound rational on the face of it
justanotherzom@reddit
Not at all I'm all for 15 min cities. I was stating what would be the benefit to "trap" people into just one area. Like the conspiracy theorists are saying. That would be terrible for the economy and no government is going to do that
Cakeo@reddit
Public transport?
I think i just solved all your problems.
NoisyGog@reddit
The hatred and stupidity was caused by propaganda, spread by misinformation troll farms.
Make people angry about something pointless, and you’ll sow division, and make them ignore the important little things going on.
MultiMidden@reddit
Part of the problem is that the most vocal proponents of 15 minute cities are often people who hate cars and want to see LTNs introduced. My personal view is that 15 minute cities should make LTNs totally pointless because they'll become defacto LTNs because people don't need to drive.
Oh and the Oxford LTN scheme will use ANPR to ensure only residents use the gates on one of the 100 days a year they allowed to use the entry gates. This is where they get the trapping idea from.
So the loonies have put 2 and 2 together and got an answer that is wrong, but from a certain perspective can look close enough to 4.
LawTortoise@reddit
Government "you guys are always complaining about lack of transport, town centres dying and climate change, how about we create walkable cities?"
"Fuck off. Stop trying to control me, Deep State."
If you don't laugh, you'll cry. The over-amplification of fringe voices is a real issue with our society.
GoodGrapeVimtoFiend@reddit (OP)
Yeah. Why would they do that? Conspiracy rarely consider whether what they’re worried about is actually possible.
yojifer680@reddit
It's already happening. The 15 minute cities will just be used as justification for more of it.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-m&sca_esv=cb2bd471e7c0d922&sxsrf=AHTn8zq_YVm0kqdhhHyjMybDsVVx_iNsiw:1742157788159&q=uk+low+traffic+neighbourhoods&udm=2&fbs=ABzOT_CWdhQLP1FcmU5B0fn3xuWpmDtIGL1r84kuKz6yAcD_igefx-eKq1gCPHF3zhthFomh79cFPZr7GL5iNp2GA56P4OLMlzQBs5wyqMSRRYvXId3jnqQ_ktF6u5mwEk7Wx9wrJKG0-gZ-bqAYYNMoIkheQ8WpBb41_dSXMbqEj39huOSF4T5_LR8-J3S7zvZ7snnBPkdBDEofJxoXSC643PL8zSMb5Q&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjQmezAu4-MAxXNYEEAHTbMLfUQtKgLegQIDBAB&biw=98&bih=182&dpr=3.33
dinobug77@reddit
There are 15 minute cities without LTNs. There are LTNs nowhere near town centres. There is no correlation let alone causation.
drivingagermanwhip@reddit
I'd guess it would be very disadvantageous to some big businesses and so there's an attempt to make it sound scary. However it would be such an obviously great thing for almost everyone that the reasons given why it would be terrible are even nuttier than usual.
hu6Bi5To@reddit
It’s because of the “not sure how they’ll achieve this” part.
No-one is actually building these idilic communities. The only local authorities which cite the concept are those that are cash-strapped and trying to put a positive spin on increased parking fines etc.
jonewer@reddit
These "idilic communities" already exist - British cities are already mostly 15 minute cities, as are most reasonably sized towns
hu6Bi5To@reddit
There are some, yes. But those all existed spontaneously rather than as a result of planning.
Impossible_Theme_148@reddit
That isn't true, many UK cities have organically become 15 minute cities but the wave of New Town developments that started in the mid 20th century were effectively planned and built that way.
Nobody called it that then, but they were designed with the idea of people being near everything they need - so they were conceived as 15 minute cities even if the label didn't exist then.
hu6Bi5To@reddit
The mid 20th Century New Towns were the peak of car-first development. Almost the exact opposite of the concept surely?
Impossible_Theme_148@reddit
Well I, lived in one growing up and we walked to primary school, and local shops. Crossed one road to walk to the supermarkets, doctors and secondary school, with the city centre being a 20 minute cycle ride (just missing the 15 minute marker).
There were a number of towns developed and some had different priorities, but I've seen plenty which were built with similar guidelines in place.
I haven't checked the dates but they were being developed from the 40s to the 70s - maybe the earlier one's were the one's you are thinking of and I'm more thinking of the later one's
Complex-Setting-7511@reddit
Yes the only attempts so far have included fines for traveling to far/often (by car) but no new amenities or infrastructure to make it easier to stay in your zone/district.
HeartyBeast@reddit
I think that’s a fair point - as someone who is a fan of the 15 minute concept
Novel_Passenger7013@reddit
Having everything you need within 15 minutes is great, but it’s always paired with restricting people’s movement with fines, which will make life much more difficult for average people while not effecting the wealthy.
There are also some questions that never seem to get answered.
What if the school nearest to you is over subscribed because your zone just had 200 new houses put up and now there are 100 new pupils? What If its just a terrible school or run by a shady academy or a religious school you don't want your children attending? Are you just told oh well, deal with it? We’d have to implement an American style system where anyone in a certain postcode is assigned a school so you wouldn't end up placed somewhere outside the zone.
How is it going to work having your job be within 15 minutes? If you're only allowed to drive a certain number of days and have to pay a fee to move between zones, you’re going to be limited in changing employer, which benefits big business, not you. If you work at a cafe in an expensive area, how will you afford the rent? With the home buying process as onerous as it is in the UK, how could homeowners ever change jobs without incurring massive fees for commuting? And would you really move house for a job an extra 10-20 minute commute or would people just stay stuck with employers who no longer have as much incentive to offer better pay packages to retain people?
What if your local amenities are shit? The sports centre down the road has a 2 year waiting list for swim lessons, but it’s a £20 a day fee for driving your kids to the one across town. You want to take up pottery, but sorry, there are no studios in your zone so the lessons now cost twice as much when you factor in the fines. What if you live on UC and the only grocery stores within 15 minutes are a Waitrose and a Spar? Whats the premium you pay over someone near a Lidl? Or worst of all, what if the only pub within 15 minutes serves birdseye patty burgers and charges you £20 for the privilege?
No one is against having amenities near them except people way out in the countryside who choose that purposefully.
People are worried that restricting movement will make their lives more expensive, more limited, and more difficult, which it absolutely will.
Divorce the 15 minute city from the restrictions and people will be on board. They will also naturally not drive as much if they don't have to. British people love a walk.
jimthewanderer@reddit
No it isn't.
Kelypsov@reddit
You realise all the 'restrictions' you're referring to here are not actually part of the concept of 15 minute cities? So, when you say:
Boom. Done. So, are you now on board?
Novel_Passenger7013@reddit
Yeah, as long as no one is blocking roads or restricting when people can drive.
I suppose I already live within a 15 minute walk of daily necessities. A lot of it is shit, but it’s technically there.
There is still that small worry in the back of my mind that once they've declared they've done it, they can argue that blocking roads and restricting car travel is fine, because their “consultation” said we have everything close by and don't need to drive.
I suppose the biggest issue is that I don't trust the government not to turn it into a huge, expensive and inefficient headache, like they seem to do with everything else.
Kelypsov@reddit
...which isn't part of the concept. So they would be actually deviating from the whole idea.
This little conversation is actually an excellent example of what the OP was asking about, which is why people get very angry with the whole idea - things that are simply not part of the whole idea and concept seem to get conflated and included with it, and they get angry with things that simply aren't part of it, but they get told it is. And, for some reason, even doing a very basic level of research, such as things like a simple online search to find out what '15 minute cities' actually is doesn't seem to occur to a lot of people.
GoodGrapeVimtoFiend@reddit (OP)
I suppose the biggest issue is that I don’t trust the government not to turn it into a huge, expensive and inefficient headache, like they seem to do with everything else.
I totally agree with this - but at the same time, this is why the talk of restricting people’s movement and choices seems far fetched. How’s that same shower of incompetent bastards going to create the infrastructure to control and keep people in those areas?
jimthewanderer@reddit
Mental illness.
There is no reasonable argument against the concept.
mtw3003@reddit
It's on the list of angry-words, so when I see it I'm obliged to get angry
dregjdregj@reddit
The idea of not having freedom of movement and being fined /overcharged seemed verycommunist.Having everything within 15 minutes sounds good but they seems to be discussing "penalties" for those that dared transgress
GoodGrapeVimtoFiend@reddit (OP)
They ‘seem’ to be discussing stuff like that? Are they really? Where was that reported?
fn3dav2@reddit
https://travel.admin.ox.ac.uk/article/oxford-traffic-filters
1CharlieMike@reddit
The Oxford traffic calming measures aren’t anything to do with being a 15min city.
They’re to try and enable a beautiful medieval city cope with today’s transport demands.
fn3dav2@reddit
But they do fit the methods and goals of a 15-minute city scheme, so it's relevant.
It's like how a man who loves and has sex with men (and not women) is gay, even if he doesn't want us to say that he's gay.
1CharlieMike@reddit
It’s nothing like the goals of the 15min city.
The goal of a 15min city is to have all amenities within easy walking distance.
Oxford is very much not that. The goal of traffic calming is Oxford is to stop people being killed, to keep busses running, and to stop buildings falling down.
fn3dav2@reddit
The Council expects the filters to make bus journeys quicker and more reliable, and walking and cycling safer and more pleasant. This is a trial, and the changes will be made permanent only if there’s clear evidence that they are working well and delivering the expected reduction in congestion.
The 15-minute city is an urban planning concept in which most daily necessities and services, such as work, shopping, education, healthcare, and leisure can be easily reached by a 15-minute walk, bike ride, or public transit ride from any point in the city. This approach aims to reduce car dependency, promote healthy and sustainable living, and improve wellbeing and quality of life for city dwellers.
I notice some common goals here.
robtheblob12345@reddit
They don’t make me angry, but I live in zone 2 of London. I only got fibre optic broadband in 2021 (not even a joke) as they didn’t have the infrastructure in place. There’s no way they’re getting on street vehicle chargers installed anytime soon. My nearest supermarket that isn’t overpriced corner shop is more than 15 mins walk away. Nearest hospital more than 15 mins walk away, nearest pharmacy too, nearest gym too. Unless the infrastructure is being built before they force me to get rid of my car, I’m not down for it. They can barely manage to empty the bins weekly at the moment and council tax is going up again. Don’t restrict aspects of my life or make it more expensive of the promise you’re going to build this stuff “sometime soon”
lonehorizons@reddit
Don’t worry, the whole conspiracy theory started when anti lockdown activists heard about an academic paper from some guy in a European country in the 90s suggesting it might be good for governments to make sure they built amenities within 15 mins’ walk of any new housing development to help with traffic flow problems.
The Guardian tracked the guy down and interviewed him last year and he said it was literally just a suggestion in a paper he wrote 30 years ago, it’s not some big secret worldwide conspiracy .
adezlanderpalm69@reddit
The Cambridge one was a fake
Prestigious-Gold6759@reddit
https://www.drtrozzi.news/p/the-smart-city-infrastructure-a-digital?r=o6faa&triedRedirect=true
This is a good summary.
Spirited-Scallion904@reddit
There’s a really great podcast on this by the climate deniers playbook. It explains the origins of the conspiracy (being totally baseless) and how it took hold. But Noami Kleins recent book Doppelgänger speakers to why these kinds of conspiracies are catching hold so much more at the moment, it’s a book I wish literally every person in the western world would read right now.
There are lots of real issues in the world being left unaddressed - surveillance, corruption, wealth divides that limit freedoms, a profit over people economy, a total breakdown of trust of the rich powerful. The left of politics, trying to distance itself from the alt right over the last decade, has unfortunately not given any solutions to these issues or even really acknowledged them in recent years. This has left lots of people who were apolitical or previously left leaning feeling abandoned and not taken seriously. Tapping into this feeling, and using conspiracies to rile up fear and emotion, has been a very successful part of the alt right / maga campaign since 2016 to win those people over. We live in a world now where the majority do not trust the mainstream media (for some legitimate reasons), but trust wholeheartedly what they see on social media, even though it’s even less reliable and susceptible to misleading information. The sad thing is these conspiracies only divide us more and make the powerful even less accountable for their very real sins. It’s easy for the oil industry to get away with destroying the planet for example, if people believe conspiracies that climate change is a hoax to lock us in 15 minute cities. The irony is that people thinking they are free thinkers because they are angry about 15 minute cities are being intentionally mislead to create a world where the rich and powerful get to do whatever they want unchecked. They think conspiracies free them from the shackles of mainstream manipulation, but they ARE the new mainstream manipulation. That’s my own conspiracy anyway.
It’s really sad we are where we are to be honest.
Mad_Mark90@reddit
AstroTurfed propaganda from lobbies that would lose profits or power
Global_Geologist8822@reddit
Tin-foil hat conspiracy theorists on YouTube / TikTok grossly misunderstanding the concept.
WellWellWell2021@reddit
Easiest way to do this is to just start building a new 15 minute city from scratch somewhere with lots of land around it. Its next to impossible and would be extremely expensive to convert existing areas that are not already close to 15 minute cities.
Now if they did succeed and it was very desirable to live there, I would live there happily, if I could afford to.
Wino3416@reddit
Pricks think that it means the government will somehow keep them confined to within 15 minutes of their houses. It’s the same shit pipes who go on about yeoman of the land “law”, think someone’s put 5g up their arse, etc etc. For some reason there’s a Venn diagram of “wellness” influencers, people who go to/own gyms who shout in strong regional accents and people who think that if you occasionally use card payments you’re one of the “sheeple”. Used to be Russell brand fans but they’ve gone quiet for some reason.
smd1815@reddit
God forbid that people go to the gym.
Wino3416@reddit
Not quite sure where I said that people shouldn’t go to the gym? I mentioned that I’d seen people shouting about 15 minute cities from the gym, generally the owner of said gym. Not sure how that translates into me saying “don’t go to the gym”. I hope not, as I’m off to the gym now…
Wino3416@reddit
Downvoted for… being pleasant and actually clarifying my point? Reddit is a bunch of arse at times.
smd1815@reddit
Wasn't me haha, only just saw this. Thanks for the clarification, have an upvote.
Wino3416@reddit
Thank you! And that’s when Reddit is nice, and I love it.
marianorajoy@reddit
Completely agree with you. It's also people with low IQ that want to use their car on cities as priority over bicycles. In my council they've restricted driving through smaller roads and people with low IQs still complain that instead of taking 5 minutes from A to B by car, their journey now takes 15. Take a bicycle, you dumb fuck! Jeez...
GruffScottishGuy@reddit
People are just angry for the sake of being angry. Just like how everybody's angry at things being "woke"
Enough-Ad3818@reddit
"Woke" has lost it's meaning.
Anyone who doesn't like something, simply labels it as woke.
lonehorizons@reddit
Weirdest one was Reform people saying semi-skimmed milk was woke recently. Yeah sure, being heathy is woke now. Going to the gym is woke too I guess.
CosmicBonobo@reddit
This comment is woke.
supercakefish@reddit
It is morning and now I am woke.
lacb1@reddit
I'm pretty woke ATM, but in a few hours I plan on going to bed.
H16HP01N7@reddit
I just WOKE up.
denjin@reddit
Going to bed early is WOKE
CosmicBonobo@reddit
Sleep is a liberal hoax.
LegendEater@reddit
Utter woke nonsense.
Badger_1066@reddit
I remember when "woke" was used to describe a conspiracy theorist. Because they had "woken up" to see the "truth."
Fuck knows what it means now.
gadusmo@reddit
Was never supposed to mean that. It was awakened to social injustices and dangers as a black person in the United States. It's a very old term.
MagnoliaPetal@reddit
It was explained to me that "stay woke" was said among black people so they'd stay aware of micro aggressions so they could remove themselves from situations before they potentially escalated.
CityOfNorden@reddit
Sure they used to tell each other to "stay woke". Now they throw it about as an insult. Odd creatures.
Grimdotdotdot@reddit
madboater1@reddit
Woke has no meaning, it just allows people to dismiss others without having to discuss things.
NeverCadburys@reddit
Before woke it was "remoaners", and "loony left", before theat "Political correctness (gone maaaaad)", and before that it was "namby pamby free loving kumbaya-singing hippies". You know, god forbid some of us just want to treat everyone with the respect they deserve.
ItsKingDx3@reddit
Remember SJWs? That was only a few years ago but the term seemed to disappear overnight. It was completely supplanted by Woke
NeverCadburys@reddit
Ah yes, and I saw that change on Tumblr from the genuine unhinged to yet again reasonable people just asking for people to be respected.
GoodGrapeVimtoFiend@reddit (OP)
It does seem to be the same demographic of people…
_disasterplan@reddit
The gammonati?
BaBaFiCo@reddit
The uninformed and the easily led.
bartread@reddit
I don't hate the idea at all in some ways but there are scenarios where the ideal breaks down pretty quickly.
For example, if you're ambitious and want a career as opposed to a job - very likely as soon as you move employers for the first time. And the transaction costs of just selling up and moving so you're within 15 minutes of your new employer often don't make sense, and it's not just about moving home:
- What about your partners employment? Do they change to? Quite possibly not, and especially if they're the main breadwinner
- What about your childrens' schools? Do you want to keep shifting them around schools just because you've changed jobs?
Beyond this:
- What if the schools more than 15 minutes away are better? Will you settle for the closer schools or push to have your kids in better schools?
And the list goes on.
The problem with the 15 minute city is it's an ideal, not an executable plan - not even once - and certainly not a template for the future that can be applied repeatably with tailoring to each context.
glasgowgeg@reddit
None of this makes sense unless you think 15 minute city bans you from leaving a specific area, which isn't the case.
fn3dav2@reddit
Sure, it just fines you.
Cars that aren’t exempt (or resident permit holders who have used up all their day passes) will receive a fine of £70 (reduced to £35 if paid within 21 days) if driven through the filters.
"But that isn't part of the 15-minute city idea!"
Whatever. It's the same thing. Just because they don't call it that, doesn't mean it's especially distinct. I don't know why you care what they call it. Neil deGrasse Tyson doesn't stop being an atheist just because he says he "doesn't want that label".
The 15-minute city is an urban planning concept in which most daily necessities and services, such as work, shopping, education, healthcare, and leisure can be easily reached by a 15-minute walk, bike ride, or public transit ride from any point in the city. This approach aims to reduce car dependency, promote healthy and sustainable living, and improve wellbeing and quality of life for city dwellers.
In the United Kingdom, a Low Traffic Neighbourhood (LTN) is an area in which filtered permeability and traffic calming are deployed to reduce motorised through-traffic in residential areas. ... There is evidence to show that LTNs lead to a decrease in car use, increase in walking and cycling and a decrease in street crime, violent crime and sexual assaults.
glasgowgeg@reddit
Correct, give an example of the thing being discussed.
It's not.
It's not a 15 minute city, stay on topic.
The bit in bold is what a 15 minute city is, nothing there says you're banned from leaving it.
Not a 15 minute city.
fn3dav2@reddit
I didn't say a 15-minute city scheme currently literally bans you from leaving a certain area. I doubt many people have been saying that. It's kind of a strawman.
glasgowgeg@reddit
None of the things you complain about in your original comment make sense unless you believe it bans you from leaving the area.
chrispy108@reddit
What?
No one is suggesting that you'll be banned from driving to work, just that you shouldn't have to walk to get to shops, bars, doctors etc.
bartread@reddit
> No one is suggesting that you'll be banned from driving to work,
Who's saying that? I never said that. I just said that it's a bit of an unworkable ideal to be able to work within 15 minutes of where they live.
chrispy108@reddit
You don't need to live 15 minutes walk from work. That's fine. No one ever said you did. You've invented a problem against a lovely idea and then ran with it.
You decide where you want to live. In the local area they'll be schools, doctors, shops and restaurants within a 15 minute walk, so you won't need to drive as much for life. Lovely stuff.
You drive 30 minutes to work. Drive home. Kids are home already because they can easily walk home. You can wander out for a coffee or a bit of food. Brilliant stuff.
Change jobs. You drive 30 minutes in the opposite direction. Drive home. Life still the same.
LNGBandit77@reddit
More things would be online one would have to assume. Telemedicine etc.
iain_1986@reddit
Noted.
cnsreddit@reddit
You can still drive to work bro
Savage_Tech@reddit
Most of the people complaining about 15 minute cities are flat earthers. In fact I don't think I've ever heard anyone else complaining about them.
Obviously if someone is a flat earther they have issues. Maybe there are some problems with the 15 minute city concept but I wouldn't know because listening to flat earthers is worse brain rot than tiktok.
BritishBlitz87@reddit
Because they are using the stick to make them happen not the carrot.
"Too many people are driving to work. It takes them 30 minutes but the bus takes 45 and only comes every half an hour.
We could build some infrastructure, subsidise our buses more so we can speed up public transport. Maybe long-term encourage moving the jobs and people closer together are somehow. It's a tricky one alright"
"Wouldn't it be easier to just cause more congestion with badly planned cycle and bus lanes that don't work, planning route closures and redesigning junctions to reduce throughput until it takes an hour to drive into town? It'll still take 45 minutes on the bus but it's now the better option. If we put bus lane cameras everywhere and charge people £50 for putting a tyre over the corner we'll even make money"
"Excellent idea Simpkins!"
I know Reading Borough Council and Greater London Authority have this as policy to encourage modal shift.
Bladders_@reddit
So accurate its scary ha
ComeHereUk@reddit
That's not the 15 minute neighbourhood principle. The 15 minute idea is you can walk or cycle to local facilities. Why would you not want somewhere to grab a drink or shop within an easy walk?
WhalingSmithers00@reddit
Their point is that people don't trust that this will actually happen. We hear about congestion charges and restrictions on cars but just expect nothing will happen to compensate for this.
Public transport is in the toilet, more shops seem to be closing than opening, doctors and dentist appointments are hard to get and cycle facilities are seen as expensive and pointless.
A lot of this is media and how they report on 15 minute cities. The rest is just that general feeling that things only get worse not better. It might not be true, it might not be rational but that's the political landscape are in unfortunately
jonewer@reddit
Restrictions on cars is nothing to do with 15 minute cities though.
It's like saying reducing plastic food packaging is forcing people to eat more fruit and vegetables.
WhalingSmithers00@reddit
Sorry I wasn't trying to say what it is but what people think it is
grrrranm@reddit
Test
1CharlieMike@reddit
You can still freely move around the city, you just might have to use your legs, your bike, or a mobility scooter instead.
grrrranm@reddit
Of course that's good but I'm specifically talking about the limitation on car transportation whether that be physically blocking roads or people being priced out unable to use them!
For example, Central London is really good public transportation but in the suburbs, it's virtually impossible to get around quickly and efficiently using it...
1CharlieMike@reddit
And I specifically said you can still use those roads, you just have to find a different way.
You don’t have a human right to be able to drive a car on any patch of land you desire.
grrrranm@reddit
Absolutely have a human right to travel anywhere freely within the public domain but sometimes public transport is not a viable alternative then what you do if you can't walk or bike to the place you need to go!
I suppose you're you stay at home and you're trapped!
1CharlieMike@reddit
The reality is that closing a few local roads to cars isn’t preventing preventing you from getting somewhere. Either you park outside and travel in by a different method, or you continue around the closed road by car and go on to your destination.
But since that’s obvious to just about anyone you must be being deliberately obtuse.
grrrranm@reddit
We're talking about hypothetical situations as to why people don't like 15 minutes cities
I'm telling you why? no one was asked if it is to be it would be imposed!
1CharlieMike@reddit
And I’m telling you why the hypothetical arguments are silly.
grrrranm@reddit
They're not! We can have different opinions But the points are valid!
1CharlieMike@reddit
It’s not valid to say “a street half a mile away from me is closed to cars therefore I’m trapped in my house.”
grrrranm@reddit
There you go misrepresenting exactly what I'm saying, implementing ULEZ style systems, implementing low traffic neighbourhoods & not providing adequate public transportation to facilitate 15 minutes cities.
Will Limit peoples ability to get around the city in a hypothetical scenario! If everywhere in the country had central London transportation then they wouldn't be a problem.
1CharlieMike@reddit
And yet, even with those failures people would not be “trapped” at home.
whatwhenwhere1977@reddit
Some ‘people’ have said that it’s because people aren’t allowed out of their section of the city. Which is obviously not true. For some people it’s about the fact that the primacy of the car is not being maintained. But increasing the liveability of cities seems very sensible to me.
TwinkletheStar@reddit
Yeah, what on earth is the issue with having everything you need within a 15 minute walking distance? If you already live in a city Where's the joy in sitting in a traffic jam to go to work, take your kids to school, etc? Especially in the UK where our roads are already overflowing. Wouldn't it be nice if when you had to drive somewhere there weren't hundreds of other cars on the same road doing journeys that could be done by walking instead?
military_history@reddit
People have a way of becoming fond of circumstances that are forced upon them, to the point where they actually believe they entered into them by choice.
Good thing is, if we can get enough people walking or getting the bus, they'll very quickly tell themselves that's what they wanted all along.
TwinkletheStar@reddit
I do have a car but living in a city means that sometimes it's easier to get the bus and I have to say, other than waiting in cold weather, I actually enjoy sitting on the bus listening to a podcast. It's a bit of time where you don't have to think you should be doing something and can just relax for a while.
military_history@reddit
I know exactly what you mean. I actually get the train to work because I live next to a station on a (fairly poorly used) branch line which just happens to lead straight to where I work, and that 40 minutes of reading a day does me a lot of good. I have to drive almost everywhere else though.
Slyspy006@reddit
The flexibility and freedom of movement offered by owning a car can not be overstated imo. That isn't illusory.
military_history@reddit
No, it's just very situational. I'd love to not have to own a car, and just rent one for when I want to go on holiday. And how much nicer would it be to drive if that were the case?
RevStickleback@reddit
There's further thought from these types that it's designed to institutionalise people into believing they will never need to leave their zone, to make controlling the population easier. One insane bit if video 'evidence' of this was showing how if you open the door on a chicken coop the chickens don't try to escape, because everything they need is there.
The fact that we aren't chickens was an obvious flaw in that analogy, but not as obvious as the fact that the chickens were kept in a locked cage to stop them wandering off.
The overall idea of governments wanting to control us is strong in them, despite there being no obvious advantage to doing so.
Queen_of_London@reddit
Also, chickens do go out of the coop/run if the door is left open. They return for food and nearly always return to lay their eggs because they want to lay their eggs in a safe place, and come back at night of their own free will because it's dark and cold and they want to go to sleep, and the chickens that didn't get inside away from predators didn't live long enough to pass their genes on, but they'll roam fairly widely during the day.
Those must be very selective videos. Even ex-battery hens are keen on exploring when they're given the chance.
TwinkletheStar@reddit
As someone who doesn't get sucked into conspiracy theories it's hard to understand why these people do believe that shit.
Just thinking about it sensibly for a couple of minutes would make most of their perceived fears null and void.
And why, if you believe one conspiracy theory, does that mean you're probably going to believe in lots of insane things? I'm actually really interested now.....I might see if I can find some research.
GoogleUserAccount2@reddit
You underestimate the number of people who only act sucked in to do the sucking themselves.
TwinkletheStar@reddit
That's a frightening thought but I can see what you're saying. We see a lot of politicians adopting this strategy, media that is scaremongering and Internet personalities/influencers who boost their ratings by having extreme/misleading views on an array of topics.
It's basically a business strategy it seems.
RevStickleback@reddit
Typically people believing they are much smarter than they are, convinced knowing this 'truth' is proof of them being smart, because normal people are too 'blind' to see it.
There's also the general trend that people want to believe the exciting story, rather than the mundane.
TwinkletheStar@reddit
Yeah, the being smart thing really isn't working out in their favour is it?!
charlescorn@reddit
Conspiracy theories are how idiots get to feel like intellectuals.
"Theorists" are "in" on a "secret" that the "sheeple" aren't, so they're "special". That's basically it.
WarmTransportation35@reddit
They do have a point when there are people who never left their town or part of city becasue they had no reason to venture out so 15 minute cities will ensure everyone does that and believe in the ideology governemnt force them to belive through propaganda. Making the country sparsly populated will ensure forced ideology does not spread.
They igrore the fact that there will be people who enjoy or have a job that involves traveling to other parts of the country or different countries so not everyone will be confined.
RevStickleback@reddit
Most of the countries that have adopted something akin to 15 minute cities are pretty densely populated, although it has to be said, most of those cities were close to being 15 minute cities naturally.
Not feeling you don't need to leave a city is nothing like being forced to stay in a city.
Most Americans never leave the USA, but I bet none worry that the government is trapping them in the USA.
WarmTransportation35@reddit
Exactly, this isn't the midevil times when cities are walled off and you need permission to go past the city gates. They also forget the idea that people are a lot more critical thinkers so if they notice governemnt is censoring the internet then people will create VPN and not use the internet for entertainment if it's full of nonsense.
Most natural 15 minute cities have a community culture where everyone helps each other out which is different to the UK and USA specially where the consipiricy theoriest live who have an independant self suppporting culture so the are actually scared of the cultural shift.
lyta_hall@reddit
It’s honestly shocking how dumb people can be
Interesting_Try8375@reddit
Most people don't leave their area very often already though. Unless they work a long way from home anyway.
How many times in the past month did you leave your county, or even your town, other than to go to work if you don't work in the same place you live? I expect for the vast majority answer is pretty low.
whooptheretis@reddit
Nope, chickens aren't locked in the run; foxes and badgers are locked out of the run.
Emperors-Peace@reddit
I mean if everything I need in the world is in one city. I wouldn't leave...
However, it would be difficult for one city to offer all the things I need holidays etc to obtain.
I don't think it's control to say "we've put everything you need nearby so you don't have to travel far."
SpudFire@reddit
And anybody that has ever watched Chicken Run will know for a fact that chickens are organised. They're not going to do something stupid like try to escape while people are watching
E420CDI@reddit
I told you they was organised!
TwinkletheStar@reddit
🤣🤣🤣
Ybuzz@reddit
As someone who has owned many many chickens over the years I do find the utter failure of this analogy hilarious because yeah... You can open the door wide open and they won't find their way out for 20 minutes, but when it's pissing with rain at 9pm and you have gone to shut them in their house for the night you can bet one of them will be sat on top of the damn run, soaked through, looking at you like "Help pls", having snuck out of a tiny gap that they couldn't navigate their way back into.
Literally used to have a hen named Houdini.
InformationNew66@reddit
How can you guarantee everyone has a workplace within 15 minutes of walking distance?
TwinkletheStar@reddit
You can't, it's been talked about in other comments.
InformationNew66@reddit
If you can't then 15 minute cities are impossible.
TwinkletheStar@reddit
I don't see it as an all or nothing idea.
Even if you can't guarantee everyone could work within 15 minutes of their homes it could still be a more convenient and accessible idea. By encouraging more people to walk in place of driving for most of their needs will reduce traffic significantly making it easier for those who do have to drive to work
InformationNew66@reddit
The problem is that 95%+ people will work further than 15 minutes that means during the day they won't spend money in their neighbourhood. Eg. unless barbers want to work only 6 pm-11 pm they won't have customers, as not many there during thq day. Same for other shops.
TwinkletheStar@reddit
But there WILL be people working there, even if they have come from outside of their '15 minute area''.
Maybe there's an expectation that a lot more people will be working from home in the future. Both of my children have jobs where they do. My son travels to London once a week via train to do any face to face meetings but the rest of the week he's at home and uses the local shops, barbers, takeaways, etc. I realise that this isn't possible for a lot of jobs but all these small changes can have a positive impact on many people's quality of life.
Something needs to change in our cities that are becoming gridlocked daily, adding a lot more time on journeys, and thus lowering the amount of free time for people. Pollution levels that cause asthma and other chronic lung diseases and add to global warming, need to be lowered and the health of a nation who use their cars for most journeys, (adding to the increase in obesity, heart disease, etc) that could benefit from walking more regularly, needs to be addressed. I'm sure there are many more reasons for this kind of change in our cities.
I look forward to seeing new ideas and hope that British people's lives can be improved through them.
InformationNew66@reddit
That's exactly the point: once you leave your 15 minute area, it's no longer a 15 minute city. Because you'll hop out for a coffee, a sandwitch, etc. But NOT in the 15 minute area you live in.
For home office, that's being abolishe now for the most part. Companies are bringing back people to the office everywhere.
TwinkletheStar@reddit
That's just semantics. The 'aim' doesn't necessarily end up being exactly what it was intended to be. Just an improvement on current standards of living in cities.
The home working thing was something that could possibly be more manageable in the future, especially if there were incentives for companies to embrace it.
As for electric cars....they are going to have to significantly reduce the price for many people to afford one and improve the charging facilities around the country to meet the demand that everyone having electric cars would require. That's not even mentioning goods vehicles.
There will always be difficulties in trying to make big changes, with public opinions and stonewalling being one of the biggest. People like to moan about the current situation but then put up barriers to prevent change. Increasing populations and more vehicles need innovative solutions for us to continue living in cities without there being more strain on the current infrastructure.
LambonaHam@reddit
No one has said there is one. No one objects to that.
The issue is with dismissive and condescending attitudes like yours.
TwinkletheStar@reddit
Wow!
Apparently there are people who do object or this entire post is pointless.
I'm not sure how I was dismissive or condescending to you in such a manner that you thought you'd like to be snarky with me!
LambonaHam@reddit
Because never in history has anyone ever lied, right?
No, people don't object. The point of this post is to circlejerk.
Oh?
So this was a totally mature and genuine comment was it? You genuinely believe that people are critical of 15 minute cities, because they hate the idea of having everything within 15 minutes walking distance? 🙄
TwinkletheStar@reddit
I genuinely believe that there are people critical of everything, even really good ideas.
And again, seeing as I wasn't aiming my comment at you directly why did you feel so affronted that you decide you want to argue with me over something so trivial?
In fact, don't bother answering because I don't wish to continue this pointless conversation.
LambonaHam@reddit
Because I don't like lies.
Then you wouldn't have responded. What you mean is you don't want to eat crow.
TwinkletheStar@reddit
I have not lied.
Are you expecting me to agree with you? Probably not, so therefore this conversation is pointless.
You are a sad, angry person.
WhatYouLeaveBehind@reddit
It's literally one of the main things most people look for when it comes to housing: is it close enough to things I need.
Whether than be shops, schools, doctors, dentists, transport links or anything else, local amenities are always a priority one way or another when you live in an urban environment.
TwinkletheStar@reddit
Exactly! Who ARE these crazy people who don't think it's a positive?
Are they people who don't actually live in cities and have to experience the horrors of urban traffic on a daily basis?
WhatYouLeaveBehind@reddit
Usually rural folks who think they'll be locked to their little village that only has a co-op and a leaky-roof church.
TwinkletheStar@reddit
I think that part of the process should be to provide people with details that reassure them that this isn't aimed at limiting people's rights at all. I'd be worried if I thought I'd be stuck in a village like that too!
WhatYouLeaveBehind@reddit
They do.
It's a planning tool, not a law.
Unfortunately the media twists things for engagement and profit.
TwinkletheStar@reddit
Media should be taken with a pinch of salt. A place to hear about something before you do your own research on the facts.
WhatYouLeaveBehind@reddit
Unfortunately, majority of the world said "No".
Lemonsweets25@reddit
I think having everything in walking distance is great, I live in a city in a new build of flats and it’s nice to have my local shop, hairdresser, doctor, gym etc all a 2 minute walk away.
The only thing I will say is these developments are built sort of all at once by commercial developers and you end up in with the local businesses being chains like Costa, Tesco, pure gym or whatever. In turn these places just look and feel quite artificial and I think its detrimental to independent business, because it’s all ready made instead of the establishments and community forming naturally over time.
Fortunately the development I live in is still next to an old high street/town so I still have plenty of unique cafes, shops and grocers I can frequent a 10 minute walk away but many other developments I’ve seen being built don’t have that, it’s just this odd sterile shiny commercial village, somewhat disconnected from neighbouring towns.
TwinkletheStar@reddit
I live in a small house in a housing estate in a city and do actually have most of the things I need within a short walk and excellent public transport connectivity. I still have a car though as I have to travel, to areas that don't have these things, quite regularly.
Maybe over time the new developments will feel less sterile and more independent traders and services will become a part of them too.
ElonMaersk@reddit
Yes! Get orange-pilled, people! with Not Just bikes: https://www.youtube.com/@NotJustBikes/
TwinkletheStar@reddit
This looks like an interesting channel.
Thanks 😊
BookMingler@reddit
Honestly, some people just really hate the idea of not driving anywhere. I live in a town where every attempt to develop biking infrastructure is shouted down, even though fewer cars making local journeys would make everything more pleasant.
TwinkletheStar@reddit
I used to cycle everywhere but some health issues have put a stop to it. But it made me into a driver that doesn't hate cyclists (which apparently makes me unusual). Having better cycling lanes and the ability to walk to more places is so much better for our health, for children to walk/cycle to school safely and would make life cheaper if you didn't have to get in a car to go everywhere.
Bendy_McBendyThumb@reddit
In my personal opinion, one of the most complex difficulties with it is making sure that everybody works within said 15 minute city, otherwise you have to ask what is the point?
It’d feel like our half-arsed “smart” motorways that people endlessly grumble about.
Next to that, I recall reading something about the cost/fines for leaving being in relation to some sort of “pass” that registers when you leave/visit other locations beyond your remit. There’d be an arbitrary limit that when you go beyond that, you would start paying for any time you go outside the boundary. No idea what ever came of that, but I definitely read that it was something along those lines.
TwinkletheStar@reddit
I would imagine that the work thing would be completely unattainable. But if it could reduce congestion by stopping people from driving their kids to and from school that's already a big win imo. The difference in traffic when it's half term or holidays is markedly less than the rest of the time.
Bendy_McBendyThumb@reddit
That’s fair enough! As I say I’m not naive enough to pretend it isn’t complex, because it is. We’re miles off getting anywhere near achieving it though.
I’m all for it ultimately, I just like to probe and ask questions for extra perspective.
TwinkletheStar@reddit
There's nothing wrong with wanting to know what it will really mean to the average person. It does sound like a bit of a pipe dream to think that it would work perfectly and everyone would be happy with it but I think it sounds like a great idea, in theory, so I hope that they won't completely scrap the idea. I imagine that they'll do a trial somewhere to see how it would work in reality.
theabominablewonder@reddit
15 minutes cities usually benefit those that rely on public transport or local journeys and the demographics of those people are generally not opposing 15 minute cities. They tend to be opposed by the conspiracy nuts that own a car and think their freedoms are being taken away. They don’t consider that having good local amenities will be a good benefit especially to care givers, pensioners and the like, as they don’t see it as such an issue when they can just drive somewhere.
M90Motorway@reddit
Because they worry that having everything in a 15 minute zone could be justification for the authorities to restrict movement between different zones. And (yes I know this is a taboo thing to bring up on Reddit, but I don’t care) considering the fact that we have faced restrictions on our movement due to Covid I can see why some people might be worried about it. This is because events like the Covid lockdowns were likely traumatising to a lot of the population.
zone6isgreener@reddit
It's a pipe dream as centralizing functions brings far more efficiencies and consumer power.
Farscape_rocked@reddit
I live on a fairly small estate sandwiched between two main roads. The council talked about making the centre pedestrianised so you couldn't drive from one side to the other, which would be great because a lot of people use it as a rat run. This would've meant my small children could've got almost anywhere on the estate without crossing a road, but the council bottled it in the end. I'm really disappointed.
I'd love to live somewhere where there's a carpark on the edge and it's car-free in the middle.
mkmike81@reddit
Milton Keynes is a fairly good compromise. People who have never been here mock the planning and roundabout confusion but that is what makes each estate its own little space. Not quite a bunch of 15 minute cities but as close as we will get. Each estate has a small shop and there are bigger shops scattered about. Schools are within walking or cycling distance although a lot of people choose to drive.
You can drive from one side to the other in 15 minutes. You can walk from one side to the other without crossing a main road (it will take a lot longer than 15 minutes!). It is difficult to be car free free anywhere but at least there is a chance in MK.
The only thing stopping somewhere like MK from fulfilling its potential is the people who insist on their right to drive everywhere.
Massaging_Spermaceti@reddit
When I lived in London my local area was trialling an LTN - I lived just off the North Circular and Green Lanes, so people often used our residential roads to avoid all the jams there. The LTN made a few streets one way, blocked off one major rat run, and removed the residential access to the North Circular.
People flipped their shit, vandalising the signs and planters put up to block traffic, posting their own anti-LTN signs everywhere. I received death threats via the Next Door app for saying I supported the measure!
Excuse me for wanting to be able to cross the road and cycle safely in my residential neighbourhood while not having to breath the fumes from hundreds of cars and HGVs clogging up the streets!
Similar_Quiet@reddit
Me too. It baffles me that thousands of people each week go to somewhere like center Parcs where this is the case, their children are roaming freely and safely and there's no dead animals at the side of the road. Then they experience the mad max of center parcs departure day and think "yeah this is what we want"
Farscape_rocked@reddit
Yep.
I live on a cul-de-sac. There used to be a small block of flats at the end of the street, and for a few years after they knocked it down a few of us (mainly those of us with kids) would park in the car park there, leaving the street emptier. It was great. I also grew up on an estate where houses weren't build along the roads, the roads were there almost as an afterthought and that was awesome too.
Complex-Setting-7511@reddit
The Oxford "15 minute city" started putting up surveillance cameras to count how many times you leave your "zone" (and fine you if you leave too often).
They did this before they built any new amenities that would make it easier to stay near your home.
whatwhenwhere1977@reddit
The Oxford example is simply not true and there is plenty of explanations on line to show why. It has confused a traffic scheme using ANPR cameras and a scheme for 15 minute neighbourhoods.
https://fullfact.org/online/digital-ID-Oxford-15-minute-cities-false/
Complex-Setting-7511@reddit
Oh wow a "fact-checker"
According to your "fact-checker"...
People of Oxford will absolutely be fined if they leave their "zone" 100 times in a year. But they have changed the name, it isn't a "15 minute city" any more, so anyone who claims you get fined for leaving your 15 minute city is a conspiracy nut... because we changed the name.
Mysterious_Floor_868@reddit
No they won't. They'll be charged if they use their cars to take shortcuts through six specific roads too often. No one will be charged for going via the ring road, and you can go wherever you like on a bike or on foot. Bus services will be quicker too, as they won't be queuing up behind cars.
whatwhenwhere1977@reddit
Oh fine. You don’t believe in facts or independent groups investigating issues so we ll just discuss thing based on your prejudices and post truth world. Boring.
Complex-Setting-7511@reddit
I do.
Your fact-checker said that people in Oxford will be fined for leaving their "zones" but they changed the name, so it isn't a 15 minute city... Because they changed the name.
whatwhenwhere1977@reddit
So what is your issue with ‘fact checkers’?
They haven’t changed the name. It’s two different policies. It really isn’t very complicated. One is about trying to get oxford’s traffic under control by managing access to certain roads. One is about 15 minute cities. They are not the same.
LambonaHam@reddit
No one is against increasing the liveability of cities. The issues are; (a) the methods used tend to be reactionary, and short-term, and (b) people pushing for 15 minute cities are incapable of being honest / acting in good faith. You can see that in this thread with so many comments simply being hostile to anyone who doesn't agree.
whatwhenwhere1977@reddit
I’d be fascinated to hear an explanation of those statements
LambonaHam@reddit
Sure.
Reactionary methods: Places like Manchester have converted a significant number of roads in to one-way streets. This makes it far more difficult to get around by car. If you miss a turn (a lot aren't clearly marked) you end up having to do a lap of the city.
There's also the issue of 'STOP' mentality. People suggesting incremental changes, and then refusing to acknowledge that further changes will undoubtedly occur. In other words, ignoring the 'slippery slope'. It's a matter of 'I want this', and local governments feelings pressured to oblige, without fully investigating the impacts.
Bad Faith: This one is self explanatory. Just look at the top comment. No attempt to engage, or act with rationality. Simply insult levied towards anyone who isn't 100% on board, despite there being no actual attempt to convince.
slainascully@reddit
Hot take but the entirety of Manchester city centre should be pedestrianised except for taxis and delivery vans. Every Saturday all the roads out are chock full because people drive in and then complain about traffic.
LambonaHam@reddit
Definitely a hot take.
The problem is that is acting in a vacuum. Pedestrianising the city centre doesn't actually fix the issue, it just sweeps it under the rug.
Also, people in Manchester seem to love throwing themselves in front of traffic. Who are we to take their hobbies away from them?
slainascully@reddit
....a child died less than two weeks ago because a van driver somehow ignored the massive yellow tram and the tracks it is fixed to.
whatwhenwhere1977@reddit
Thank you. So why are one way roads linked to 15 minute cities?
And the top comment is fairly full on but aimed at people who believe governments will confine people to 15 minute areas. That is a pretty extreme view with no supporting evidence. I don’t think that’s anything to do with people who are for 15 minute cities acting in bad faith. Nor do I think Reddit is the best place to judge the arguments.
_TattieScone@reddit
My parents believe this. 15 minute cities are so the government and trap and track you but having a car that requires you to have a license, insurance, and has number plates which can be recognised by cameras is true freedom. They've had their brains fried by Facebook and will believe anything said by a guy with a YouTube channel who claims to have information "they" don't want you to know.
TimedDelivery@reddit
Facebook has rotted so many of my Australian family members’ brains. Every now and then I’ll receive a concerned message and a forwarded video from them with some American weirdo ranting about how most of England is now under sharia law, we reassure them that this is very much not the case, they briefly calm down and then Facebook will serve them up some garbage about NHS death panels or every British household being legally required to house migrants and the cycle starts again.
It was even worse during Covid lockdowns, my brother would send me videos of some rando being all “I’m a nurse in a hospital in London, and what THEY don’t want you to know is that all of the wards are actually empty and doctors get paid for every death certificate they fill out with Covid as the cause!” I’d respond with telling them about my friend who actually is a nurse in a hospital in London and was going through actual hell but nooooooo, rando had video evidence of an empty hallway and was wearing scrubs so it must be true!
_TattieScone@reddit
Yup, you can't outpace the disinformation that Facebook feeds them so it's a losing battle. I think part of it could be helped if they would go out and try and get a hobby or meet people but they'd rather sit on Facebook all day.
ZestycloseStyle88@reddit
Thanks for the story. It answers a question I wanted to ask. It's sad.
It makes me wonder. Is it the age. Or is it that the education was so different. Or something else
_TattieScone@reddit
My parents left school at 15 45-50 years ago and do not have great critical thinking skills. They're also prone to falling for scams and can't tell that obviously AI generated images and videos are AI. They think that they're highly intelligent though because they went to the "university of life".
WhatYouLeaveBehind@reddit
Ironically the point is to give people opportunities to access amenities without driving 🤣
Kistelek@reddit
Heaven help them if they ever find out about mobile phone mast triangulation.
whatwhenwhere1977@reddit
Do you try and talk to them about it or just let it lie? My biggest argument with my mum has been about her support for the monarchy v my avowed republicanism. Which we ve both silently agreed to not discuss again.
_TattieScone@reddit
I used to try and talk to them but there's basically no conspiracy that they don't seem to believe but they also half-ass their responses to it. They believe that food that isn't organic is injected with some hormone that is responsible for cancer etc but if Tesco doesn't have organic milk they just buy regular milk. They're becoming more and more toxic and one day we probably won't speak anymore but currently I have other family that I won't be able to have a relationship with unless I also have a relationship with my parents so I just don't engage with them on a lot of things.
whatwhenwhere1977@reddit
I totally get it. Doesn’t sound like you or anyone will change their minds so trying not to talk about it seems best.
flippadetable@reddit
Commiserations for having to deal with this from your own parents 🫠
_TattieScone@reddit
Thanks, I know that one day I'll probably end up never speaking to them again because they're turning into bitter, hateful people.
Sweaty_Sheepherder27@reddit
I think that many of us probably already live in 15 minute cities. I know I do - If a dentist opened within range, that would pretty much be everything we need.
whatwhenwhere1977@reddit
I am not sure we all realise that we could live that way. The message that we should prioritise choice seems to mean driving around rather than appreciating what is close to us.
ValleyCommando@reddit
“Govern me harder daddy”
Interrogatingthecat@reddit
Take your conspiracies elsewhere
ValleyCommando@reddit
The government is your friend. They definitely have your best interests at heart.
Interrogatingthecat@reddit
"HOW DARE THE GOVERNMENT MAKE IT SO I CAN WALK TO A SHOP, A SCHOOL, AND A DOCTOR WITHIN FIFTEEN MINUTES! CAN'T YOU SEE IT'S ALL A BIG CONSPIRACY TO GASP MAKE YOUR LIFE A BIT EASIER AND NOT NEED TO DRIVE EVERYWHERE?!?!?!?!?!"
Yeah nah fuck off mate. Go tell someone who cares.
ValleyCommando@reddit
I’m not your mate. You fuck off
Interrogatingthecat@reddit
:)
whatwhenwhere1977@reddit
Unfortunately I don’t know what that means
ValleyCommando@reddit
This doesn’t surprise me in the slightest.
Best-Hovercraft-5494@reddit
Don't bother trying to understand them. Had one of these nutters drop into an event asking people for their views on a new set of pedestrian crossings I was working on. Apparently I was part of a conspiracy enacted by the World Economic Forum to control people, and ensure they only shop at speficic chains and never leave allocated zone. 25 mins of my life I will never get back.
NibblyPig@reddit
That sounds like the kind of argument that you see a lot about 15 minute cities. Everyone who opposes them is an idiot conspiracy nutjob so let's not even entertain the idea there might be logical opposition.
My greatest concern is that public transport sucks and you can't implement this without better public transport. The bus monopoly here in Bristol is absolutely -atrocious-, buses don't show up, are late, massively overcharge people, break down, etc. but they will do anything to maintain their monopoly and the council are powerless to police them.
They are implementing these without improving public transport, so how's that going to work? We've made it a pain in the arse for you to get to work by car, but don't worry there's a bus every hour that shows up 50% of the time and appears as 'arriving in 3 minutes' and then doesn't show up for 1 hour+
And the worst issue of all is that it just pushes the problem elsewhere. Where I used to live, you could just park on street no problem, a main road going through Bedminster (part of Bristol). Then they implemented residents parking on the north side of the road, so everything north of that road (all the way for miles through the city etc.) was now residents only parking.
Rather than pay for a permit, everyone just parked their cars on the south side of the road, so I couldn't park outside my own house anymore without looping 3 times, meanwhile across the road, plenty of spaces.
Great success say the council, now there are less cars there. This is exactly what I expect from these 15 minute thingies as well, just push the problem elsewhere.
Mysterious_Floor_868@reddit
I grew up in Bristol. Other than the constantly delayed (and eventually cancelled) Supertram, the main issue with Bristol's public transport was that the buses got stuck in traffic. I remember crawling down Gloucester Road at 7mph on many occasions. The traffic was definitely the problem.
NibblyPig@reddit
The price and reliability are definitely up there as well though, in the evening when there's little traffic they still consistently don't show up
Mysterious_Floor_868@reddit
It's been some time since I lived there. Things have definitely got better according to my parents, the Metrobus is far quicker than the 73 ever was and of course fares are now a flat rate.
jonewer@reddit
You are confusing 15 minute cities with LTN's, congestion charging, and low emission zones, parking regulations, and poor public transport
Best-Hovercraft-5494@reddit
at no point were any of the points you raised here made by the person who spoke to me - if they actually raised an issue with the scheme itself fine but we went straight to the WEF conspiracy. What am I supposed to do?
NibblyPig@reddit
You said "Don't bother trying to understand them." which I interpreted to mean you considered everyone opposing it to be like that
_disasterplan@reddit
Blamed it all on Soros, didn't they?
Natural_Dentist_2888@reddit
It's slightly ironic they wasted more of their life whittering at you than they would spend just walking to the shops in a 15 minute city.
I always point out that I pretty much live in one now and if I didn't need my van for hobbies at the weekend, I'd sell that cash eating millstone around my neck. £1500 a year before I even drive it anywhere back in my pocket.
Demka-5@reddit
It is not such a new concept- Any bigger houses development ( small town) they have already all shops/school/services within walking distance.
UndulatingUnderpants@reddit
Lack of education, propaganda, misinformation, and idiocy.
paddydog48@reddit
It was an issue that the right wing decided to fixate on so they could harp on about “government overreach” or “government tyranny “ or some such nonsense not based in reality or fact as anyone with more than a few functioning brain cells understood wasn’t actually the case and like with most of the stuff conservatives start pearl clutching about turned out to be nothing like how they were attempting to present it as.
They never let things like facts or reality get in the way of a good bit of propaganda for the dribbling idiot’s that get taken in by their nonsense, they have mostly moved on from this particular issue and reverted back to the more tried and tested fear mongering subjects of demonising black/brown/immigrant/trans people as this is always a sure fire winner that never fails to get their followers energised and riled up.
horsebeech@reddit
There's a good episode of the Things Fell Apart podcast that covers the origins.....
S2. Ep 7: You'll Own Nothing and You'll Be Happy.
If you haven't heard the other episodes it's really good at showing the origin point of a lot of these conspiracies and how people take things the wrong way (on purpose sometimes) then use the misinformation for their own ends.
Covers things like the Satanic Panic and where the obsession of (some) Americans with banning abortions came from.
opaqueentity@reddit
Mainly nutjobs but I have a problem with the idea it would happen. You just won’t get new shops, post offices, dentists etc within 15 minutes of people anymore. To make it work would require a LOT of money to be put in and no one is doing that. Very sad.
wandering_salad@reddit
I think it's the (perceived) lack of personal freedom people are worried about.
MarcusFallon@reddit
They are batshit crazy fullstop.
KurtWuster@reddit
The same people against them also post those “traditional” pictures with everyone strolling along the High Street past the thriving local butchers, bakers etc.
GoodGrapeVimtoFiend@reddit (OP)
The same people who have nostalgia for a war they weren’t even alive in.
KurtWuster@reddit
That’s the ones 👍
Fromasha@reddit
It's because it usually makes driving anywhere a PITA, and people like driving in their cars rather than being expected to cycle or take shitty public transport...
cnsreddit@reddit
The point is you can literally walk. That's what the 15 minutes is...
txteva@reddit
You can. Not everyone finds that as easy.
glasgowgeg@reddit
How? It just means that services you need/use should be available within 15 minutes of you.
Fromasha@reddit
It sounds great in principle, however my personal experience of how urban planning works in the UK is that actual implementation is poor and doesnt really benefit most people in the local area. It generally just means making driving difficult (impacting local businesses/working people) and building more cycle lanes that are expensive and don't get used. Not everyone works from home.
glasgowgeg@reddit
Yeah, you just made that claim, I asked you how it does this.
Can you answer the question this time?
Fromasha@reddit
Sure, through one way systems, increased parking restrictions (cpz, electric only bays), no right turns, cycle lanes taking up road space, speed bumps everywhere. Waltham Forest for example is pushing the 15 min thing and put cycle lanes across the borough that no one actually uses a few years ago. No one I know in the area actually wants this and this is a waste of money considering the other ways London needs to be improved at the moment.
glasgowgeg@reddit
None of these are specific to 15 minute cities, which is what we're discussing.
15 minute cities, as a concept, is where everything a person would need exists within 15 minutes of them.
Explain how that makes driving more difficult.
ExplanationMotor2656@reddit
Why do you think cycle lanes are expensive? It's the cheapest bit of infrastructure possible.
WelshBluebird1@reddit
The whole picture is so you don't have to drive everywhere
dbxp@reddit
The 15 minute city idea doesn't say anything about cars
txteva@reddit
Some people forget that disabilities and mobility issues exist and sometimes a car which can park closer is needed.
With an added bonus that most people with these issues don't have a Blue Badge so they wouldn't be able to use any Blue Badge privileges.
In UK around 24% of people (16.1 million) are classed as disabled - around half of this is mobility issues.
However, there are only 2.57 million Blue Badges held - meaning that a good proportion of those with issues who might need a badge don't have one since only 15% of disabled people have one.
Ysbrydion@reddit
They think you'll be fenced in to a small area and shot if you leave.
It's really kind of sad. People lose family members over this.
Complex-Setting-7511@reddit
You will literally be fined if you leave too often.
Not quite as bad as being shot but still a bit dystopian, no?
Ysbrydion@reddit
No you won't, hth
LooselyBasedOnGod@reddit
I know someone who went out to get a pot noodle and saw a neighbour, got chatting and he was out of his zone for 16 mins and 21 seconds and now he’s in jail on a whole life tariff
andyff@reddit
These days, if you go out to get a pot noodle and see a neighbour, get chatting and he be out of your zone for 16 mins and 21 seconds, you get arrested and thrown in jail on a whole life tariff, don't you?
waterless2@reddit
It would be good for society and therefore the target of hostile disinformation campaigns, would be my guess; plus some level of actual bad implementation and some people's simply having ingrained resistance to change.
SkipperTheEyeChild1@reddit
I’m very happy for everything to be 15 minutes walk from where I live as the choice for me to drive somewhere else whenever I want isn’t taken away from me. I live carrots. They can go fuck their sticks.
jmabbz@reddit
The sanest reason is it might include pedestrianisation, one way streets and limiting road access which would make driving more difficult (an issue for those with poor mobility). The insane reason is there is a conspiracy theory that we will be confined to our zone like hunger games.
GingerPrince72@reddit
It's just conspiracy theory crap.
No sane person would object to the reality.
mrattapuss@reddit
To give the most charitable view, with which i have a lot of sympathy, central planning is often very ineffective. Think of affordable tower blocks all pristine and new which fall to ruin and become hellish prisons for the worst off in society because the underlying issues aren't addressed. Think of how slow public works are compared to private ones. Think of the million youth centers that no one uses, half assed public parks, mps campaigning tirelessly to save a random shitty building from the seventies from destruction, think of every high street rejuvenation project and how much the high street is actually rejuvenated.
Settlements in their most original sense are emergent, houses go where people want to live, parks go somewhere with the best views, shops should be close to roads to facilitate transportation. These decisions are pragmatic and internalised rather than explicit plans, a collection of individual personal corporate and governmental desires. The result of this is, ideally, a community moulded by convenience and practically. The complex marching patterns of ants are nothing more than thousands of collective insects making individual choices, and yet the result is optimal.
For the reasons above, i struggle to envision centralised, especially government centralised, planning being any good. Maybe there is a supermarket a mathematically perfect distance from your house, but the shop is on a hill and getting stock delivered is an ass, and it's right next door to the fifteen minute away high school so no one wants to run the shop cos of all the schoolkids. And we need to have a gym within fifteen minutes as well but no one is interested in starting a franchise there or maybe there's just no interest among the existing community but maybe one day someone moves in each does want a gym, do we build one just for them or is there like a threshold?
I don't think the free market is absolute, but it provides a framework for the complex interplay of societal needs and wants to result in a settlement which generally, big picture, reflects what people want. I think a top down, planned community approach to this results in a lower resolution view with too much requirement for social and societal engineering.
And to give a drop of sympathy to the "THEY ARE GOING TO POLICE HOW FAR WE CAN GO" crowd, who are absolutely hyperbolic. Think about the current implementation of catchment zones for schools and gp's as way of top-down rationing access to location sensitive resources, my choice to shop three 15min blocks over if replicated en masse may cause congestion for the people in that block, and how would such a top down system deal with that?
Basically, it's a great idea when it emerges naturally or mostly naturally, but as a top down initiative is massively vulnerable to inefficiency, bureaucratic bloat, questionable incentives, and market issues, especially when implemented by government and council bodies who already exhibit glaring failures in understanding what people want and need and how to implement.
jsosmru@reddit
I've lived in a 5 minute walk city for years, arguably 10-20 years.
Or 10 minutes city if you want to include a discount supermarket and dentist. There's also underground and rail stations, post office, pharmacies, clothes shops etc close by too.
There may be genuine concerns, but it's worked for many years where I am.
hypertyper85@reddit
I think some of it's from the same people who give so much hate to cyclists and cycleways being built. There are a lot of these people in Coventry at the moment. It's not like anyone is forcing them to cycle or anything but they can't stand money behind spent on cycleways (even tho most the money is from grants) they just do not like it and it's really getting on my nerves and getting old now. Every time the city announces a new cycleway there's another big backlash from these people. I'm here thinking, how is this a bad thing? I cycle and drive, my kid cycles, I'd like him to eventually cycle himself to secondary school and it would be great to have a network of segregated cycle lanes so I know he's safe. but noooooo for some reason they are all angry boooo
Humble-Variety-2593@reddit
It makes thick people angry.
Everyone else gets it.
PaDDzR@reddit
There are a lot of comments talking of "brainwashing" or "locked down" or various fear mongering things being thrown around...
But I'll give you something else to wonder over. Why is there ALWAYS something internet is fighting over that's completely disconnected and irrelevant or just minor part, no one should reliably care about?
15min cities are a pipe dream, it's this nonsense crypto bros and corporations have wet dreams about. It's not based on reality. You're not getting a hospital, massive tesco, lidl, asda, sainsburys etc, police, firestation, schools for ALL ages and the population to sustain it. It's not realistic, will never be realistic.
So, what's to gain here? Same as other racial, religious and human "debates". They're here to distract you. It's irrelevant which camp you're on, the subject itself is flawed so you'll have endless camps setup with both sides having enough "gotchas" just to brew up hate. While billionaires keep on getting richer.
I'm old enough to have seen it all and know enough about history to see same patterns. (Who else knows about old school mining towns? Man, can't wait to be paid in store credit!).
If you take anything from my comment in this ocean of hate and bad faith arguments of one group calling the other idiots, Internet attention span is roughly 3 months. There's war on information going on and we (the common folk, couldn't care less if you're left or right, you're ALL being played) are losing hard. Think back over the past 6 months and what the internet was up in arms about... When was last time you've seen a mention of it?
hannah3186@reddit
It's called freedom matey
NorthernSimian@reddit
Limiting the need for cars is a bit like saying to some people 'do you really need that assault rifle?'
Knight_Castellan@reddit
There is the concern that the government wishes to restrict the ability to freely travel, and that making amenities local is a flowery excuse.
Given that authorities have already started blocking roads to limit travel in certain suburban areas, and the ULEZ system penalises driving anything except expensive new cars in London, these fears aren't exactly unfounded. The UK has been drifting slowly towards totalitarianism for some time now.
GoodGrapeVimtoFiend@reddit (OP)
My car is over 10 years old, cheap and exempt from ULEZ so that doesn’t exactly persuade me.
Knight_Castellan@reddit
There are many cars which are younger than yours which are penalised under ULEZ.
Anecdotal evidence is not evidence. It's like trying to disprove global warming by building a snowman.
GoodGrapeVimtoFiend@reddit (OP)
Is it because those cars are diesel with and unnecessarily large engines?
Knight_Castellan@reddit
No, it's because the emissions of those cars just don't meet the required standard, for any number of reasons.
1CharlieMike@reddit
It’s a good argument to buy an older but good car though. Which is good for the planet by reducing consumption.
ILoveBrunoFernandes@reddit
Stupid idea. I've lived on the outskirts of several large cities and have always lived within 15 minutes walk of shops, a doctors, dentists, barbers, schools and bars.
You won't be able to implement it in rural areas.
Seems like another way to spin some money by once again putting the onus on the average Brit in an era where the countries that actually matter in the fight against climate change (India, China & the USA etc..) don't give a fuck about their environmental impact.
GoodGrapeVimtoFiend@reddit (OP)
That’s why it’s called 15 minute CITIES not rural areas?
ILoveBrunoFernandes@reddit
I addressed CITIES that's why i mentioned living there in and near them.
Your reading comprehension is dreadful.
GoodGrapeVimtoFiend@reddit (OP)
“You won’t be able to implement it in rural areas”
ILoveBrunoFernandes@reddit
I don't understand why you're latching onto that sentence. I explained how it was useless in cities and what's left after that? Rural areas. Im just highlighting how it's a useless idea everywhere.
Any more questions?
jandemor@reddit
How, in any reasonable way, are you going to have everyone living within a 15m walk from their jobs? or their universities? what if you have kids and want a certain type of school for them? What do you do if you change jobs? What do you do with the people that already live in a place and have their jobs one hour away? There are a million questions. I heard someone defending this idea on the radio and he had 0 grasp on reality.
To be able to take this idea in any serious way implies negating reality. It's the typical idea that sounds great on paper (not to me), but horrible in reality.
eairy@reddit
The nuance you're missing is that when someone tried to implement '15 minute cities' plans, 99% of the time it involves banning people from using cars, or making car use in some way harder. That's what gets people upset.
GoodGrapeVimtoFiend@reddit (OP)
Can you give me any examples of cities where they’ve tried it and failed? I’m genuinely interested.
eairy@reddit
Where did I say anything failed?
GoodGrapeVimtoFiend@reddit (OP)
You said that’s always how it turns out, so I’m assuming to can point me in the direction of some examples
eairy@reddit
Then you've misread what I said. I'll try to reword it.
'15 minute cities' as a concept doesn't have to be anti-car. However it always seems to turn into anti-car policies when implemented. Rather than trying to make walking better, they try to make the utility off driving worse. Which isn't an improvement.
Yesiamaduck@reddit
Angry people who lack the critical thinking to know why they're angry
Teaofthetime@reddit
Basically it's just going back to how things were, every area had it's own shops and services nearby before supermarkets and out of town retail came along. The people opposed to this are very badly informed.
Claire1075@reddit
I have to say, I've never heard of the term "15 minute cities"! Is it a Southern term?? I'm in Lancashire. And what does it have to do with conspiracy theories? 🤔
krappa@reddit
The reasoning is the following.
The cities would become more accessible without cars, so not everyone needs a car.
Now that the city is more accessible, the government or council can put huge taxes / congestion charges / outright bans on cars.
You really need to drive for your lifestyle or work, so the above would hurt you.
GoodGrapeVimtoFiend@reddit (OP)
Your argument was lost with using ‘woke’ like that… But does everyone need a car for their work and ‘lifestyle’? The second in particular baffles me…
krappa@reddit
It's not "my" argument, I was reporting the rationale that some people would offer. I'm on the totally side.
LambonaHam@reddit
It's less about opposing the concept of a 15 minute city, and more about the fact that the people pushing this idea tend to be extremist, and elitist bigots.
Example: the top comment on this thread as I type.
The immediate and knee-jerk reaction is to brand anyone who's critical, or just not completely on board, as "nutjobs" (and that's one of the milder attitudes).
15 minute cities are fine, and pretty much already exist if you live in the city centre. The issues come from how to expand this. Usual suggestions include things like 'remove roads', 'walk / cycle / public transport', completely ignoring that this isn't viable for a lot of people: e.g. people who live outside cities. Parking at the city limits and then having to take a tram / shuttle in to the city sounds great if you live in the city. It's a massive pain in the arse if you've just driven for 45 minutes and then have to commute in even further.
GoodGrapeVimtoFiend@reddit (OP)
Oh, a user friendly bus service in my city is the dream. I understand people not trusting the infrastructure with the track record we have in this country, but people having such an extreme reaction to the basic concept of it is, well….
LambonaHam@reddit
I want to stress that no one has an "extreme reaction" to the concept of a 15 minute city. Having everything you need (or regularly use) in life within a 15 minute walk is something everyone will agree with.
The problem is how they're implemented, and the attitudes around them. Attitudes like the one you've just displayed.
Giving you the benefit of the doubt, what you've just said demonstrates that you genuinely think that the criticism, disagreement, etc, is completely invalid. This demonstrates that you've actually listened (somewhat ironic given the thread you've created), or that you're only listening to the extremist bigots like the one I've linked. Best case scenario: you are being incredibly dismissive.
That kind of attitude is cyclical. Why would people with genuine concerns want to speak to you, if you've opening discourse with such hostility and disdain? This then results in an echo chamber, as you can see in this very thread.
GoodGrapeVimtoFiend@reddit (OP)
Perhaps my wording isn’t ideal - I don’t claim to be a writer. My opinion is also subjective - seeing professionally printed banners attached to the sides of local roads and businesses is extreme. It takes time, effort and money. And a motivation based on shaky evidence. One said that there would be forced vaccinations and a whole host of things that just discredit their arguments.
Yes, I realised after posting this that I would essentially be posting to an echo chamber, but to me (at least) Reddit was always going to give me a more balanced view than other platforms I’m on and I have received/read a wide range of views and opinions (I’m not sure I’m going to be able to keep up with the amount of them tbh), and I have learned something.
However, you are the only person so far who’s decided to focus your criticism mostly on me…
LambonaHam@reddit
My criticism isn't focused on you. I'm simply pointing out that most people who 'stan' 15 minute cities display similar attitudes: that of acting in bad faith.
This alone should give any sensible person pause.
There are very valid reasons to be critical of people pushing for these schemes.
I'm not sure what you're referring to here. Are you seeing banners opposing 15 minute cities?
How are you determining that the evidence is shaky?
1CharlieMike@reddit
I have to disagree. I used to go to university in Oxford. I would drive to the park and ride and then get the quick bus in to uni.
It was easier than messing around trying to find somewhere to park in a city.
The park and ride car park was large, clean, secure, and had toilets and a cafe. It was brilliant.
ConfectionHelpful471@reddit
The only justifiable reason I can think of for objecting is for the rural population who would see this as yet another way in which funding will be shifted to cities at the expense of the rural areas which are already lagging behind in terms of service provision.
chrisjwoodall@reddit
They’ve all been brainwashed that you’ll be locked down within the 15 minute zone. And yes, the idea that you can access most of what you need within a 15 minute walk sounds utopian not dystopian to me (remember proper town planning when this kind of thing was done for newly built estates and towns?).
dinobug77@reddit
When I moved house we looked specifically for a place where we had all the amenities within 15 or so minutes.
We have 2 train stations, 2 supermarkets, multiple restaurants, pubs and coffee shops, hardware store, greengrocers, butchers, bakery and more. We have 2 parks as well. We can get a bus to two different towns in less than 15 minutes each and a 15 minute uber to a tube station.
We absolutely love it here and the face that we can do so much without the car but fuck me did we have to pay a premium!
AutomaticInitiative@reddit
You found heaven lmao.
dinobug77@reddit
Honestly we actually love it here. When we bought it just before Covid we worried we were a bit too far from the trains for everyday commuting and at stations where the trains were already full - but now we go in so little it doesn’t matter!
Oh yeah and we have a pharmacy, W H Smith, 2 really good charity shops, a gift shop, 3 barbers, a florist and 2 dry cleaners / key cutting / shoe repairs.
WhoYaTalkinTo@reddit
Yeah I don't get the issue. If you don't like that everything you need is close by, you yourself can just decide to travel further if that's what you want.
theshortlady@reddit
I don't see the benefit to the government of doing such a thing, but conspiracies don't need to make sense.
mctrials23@reddit
Something something control.
Quick-Low-3846@reddit
Ironically, just the kind of people who should be tagged and not allowed to leave their house for more than 15 minutes for the benefit of the rest of society.
marxistopportunist@reddit
It's preparation for the scarce resources future as we begin to phase out scarce resources.
But critics of 15min cities are literally always of the mindset that there are no finite resources.
Hot_Price_2808@reddit
They are a great idea but I understand people being against. People are terrified after lockdown and the trauma it's caused.
joeykins82@reddit
Because there's been a coordinated campaign to radicalise people in "the west" via social media disinformation for many years.
The targets/victims of that campaign are already angry: this is just an outlet for it.
dave_po@reddit
To achieve that they would need to build far more schools and hospitals. This ain't happening so don't worry 😅 unless they time the 15 min cities by flying F-16 at mach 2
GoodGrapeVimtoFiend@reddit (OP)
Very good point.
Puzzled-Leading861@reddit
The fear is that you either aren't allowed to leave or aren't allowed private transport. In either case you'd need to hope that some faceless bureaucrat has accurately determined what your "needs" are and provide you with them in a 15 minute radius.
As far as I am aware, there are not plans to stop people leaving their local areas or to prevent people from owning cars. There may be the odd bit of drivel from some think tank but no actual concrete plans.
Unlike the top commenter, I do not think that disagreeing with me makes you a mentally ill racist. But I probably still won't reply <3
Virtue330@reddit
Another thing is note is that most of the UK lives in a 15 minute community anyway and just don't realise it, most of Europe does in fact
Infrared_Herring@reddit
The right wing morons including the daily fail and GB news lied about what it means. Their twisted version is that you will not be allowed to travel more than 15mins from your house which is completely bullshit. There's a guy at work who's fallen for this and fervently believes this is what 15 minute cities are.
requisition31@reddit
There are two things that i hear often when people discuss this -
The lack of decision on implementing them (same thing that upsets people about ulez)
The promise within the idea of 15 minute cities is that everything you need will be within 15 minutes walk, which will clearly never happen. (schools, GPs, dentists etc)
Economy_Judge_5087@reddit
If they sold the idea as a return to the Great British High Street That You Remember From Your Ladybird Books it wouldn’t face half so much challenge.
See also: using a wicker shopping basket rather than plastic carrier bags.
Sunshinetrooper87@reddit
The idea of having everything in 15 minutes sounds lovely.
I'd welcome a GP, some shops, amenity land, sports field, schools, library, community centre and a decent sized playpark all within 15 mins.
Bollards stopping me driving to my house seems a tad extreme.
Decimus-Drake@reddit
You're mixing up different concepts but you probably know this already.
Nipso@reddit
No LTN stops anybody driving to their house.
It might mean you have to take 2 minutes extra to go the long way round, but that's it.
Sunshinetrooper87@reddit
I perhaps should have put a sarcasm thing. Part of the aversion to them is the belief that we will be bollard away from our homes.
Nipso@reddit
Ah right, gotcha.
InsaneInTheRAMdrain@reddit
Wasn't there a study on rats showing the effects of enclosed habitats.
I already feel trapped.
birchboleta@reddit
John Ronson did a great podcast on the origins of the 15 minutes cities conspiracy in his 'everything fell apart' series. Available on BBC sounds.
BarNo3385@reddit
So, I'm mildly against, but a few caveats;
If you want a design a couple of new towns on this basis and people can choose to live there if they want; great. I'm sure it works well for some people with specific needs, and I don't see how those people wanting to live in a given style hurts anyone else.
That isn't the same as saying it's a model you want to move the entire country too, or it's some kind of "one size works for all" super solution to urban design.
Specific issues;
How does it work for disabled people? My best friend is an above the knee amputee in a wheelchair. He, by requirement, drives most places I'd walk, how does that work for us trying to socialise, visit etc?
A core dependency of 15m cities is remote/ WFH. So, if I'm in a job that I can't do remotely how does that work?
Practically there are lots of impractical designs that fit the "15min city" requirement. Trying to do a weekly shop for a large family that's a 15minute tram ride away is still really quite tricky. If you've ever done the student gauntlet of trying to do IKEA, "big" shops etc by public transport it's a colossal PitA , if even possible. Today I can put my stuff in a trolley, from the trolley to my car boot, and then park outside my house to go from car boot to kitchen. How does that work on public transport?
It seems like a model that could be good for younger, able, remote working, people with no kids. Add 2 children, disability and an in person job in and it starts looking pretty dubious.
As I said at the beginning, as an option - sure - I'm broadly supportive of building lots of different styles and types of places for people to live. But it's not a cookie cutter model that will work well for everyone.
robjamez72@reddit
15 minutes seems too long to me. Even most gym users park as close to the gym door as possible so they don’t have to walk too far to do their daily exercise.
Jayatthemoment@reddit
The thing is, wealthy people already have these things. Go to a nice suburb of Manchester or Edinburgh, there will be libraries, pools, cinemas, fishmongers, etc. Similar in nicer parts of London like, say, around Upper St. you don’t need a car, and everything is close.
Compare that with the 70s sink estates and less privileged parts of town. You ain’t going to a bakery or a cinema round there. Even the Iceland and the Primark are a long bus ride away.
Propaganda to make poor people happy with shit communities.
SingerFirm1090@reddit
The oddest aspect is that the UK's new towns, designed in the post-war period, like Basildon, Harlow, Stevenage, Corby, Peterlee were all designed on that principal.
Neat estates with shops, schools, leisure facilities factories and employment a walk or bus ride away.
It's really not a new idea.
open_thoughts@reddit
Watch this video that highlights that this is mostly a US/American centric problem.
My friend got caught in this despite basic questioning collapsing his idea. Despite living in a terraced council house, his child goes to school locally and him working in retail on a high street which he gets to buy bus/escooter (weather dependent).
In America the zoning laws mean you cannot build ANYTHING - schools, pubs, shops, barbers, chippy, bank, post office, etc are all placed outside of the residential zone. Pretty much any place in the UK that isn't the most rural village IS a 15 mins city. I lived all over the UK, small rural towns, central London, and everywhere has an accessible shop at the very minimum. Usually a school, pub and whatnot at well.
Many americans are blind to this and conspiracy theorists are even more so
skycs@reddit
People on reddit usually extremes in either direction. I cannot speak for England, but ss for the opposition to it in Scotland I can attest to where the frustration comes from.
Scotland has a harsher north/south (central) divide than many down south realise, for the last 15 or so years we have seen all the country budget pumped into just the central belt, leaving people in the North and borders equally frustrated seeing city's rot, funding withdrawn, projects cancelled and money only ever spent on consultants who say no.
Major projects you see 'talked' about frequently is the dualling of the A9 and A96 these are both major roads in the North the A9 connect you to the south and the A96 is the only real connection between the major cities of Aberdeen and Inverness. And there is a lot of traffic that has to use these roads, people on holiday, locals, agriculture and the oil industry. There is so much heavy traffic on these roads which are not much more than B roads that have not been touched up since they were paved. The rail alternative has pretty much been removed either monetarily as its so expensive or literally as most of the railways here were dug up and sold for scrap iron in the late 60s.
Now there were plans to dual these roads to increase capacity and reduce accidents as the Highlands, moray and aberdeenshire have some dreadful road deaths per capita due to people trying to get past frustrating traffic with no alternative.
These plans were axed and delayed by the Green Party coalition - the ones currently pushing the 15min city idea and so far have only implemented anti motorist laws in areas were we have no other options. This is why 15 minute cities have opposition in Scotland.
While the idea sounds nice, it its being implemented by an unpopular party here in an obtuse maner alienating a population of a country that is not in 0.1% of the landmass. I cannot imagine opposition if investment was simply offered elsewhere in the country.
no3y3h4nd@reddit
The daily mail
dhthms@reddit
Change
colei_canis@reddit
I think there's a bit of a built in expectation developed over years of things in the UK generally getting crappier that it'll be all stick and no carrot. People hear 'fifteen minute cities' and instead of hearing 'all the shit I need to do is fifteen minutes' walk away and it'll be convenient' they hear 'the council will set up ANPR cameras in places specifically to catch people out and fine them, then do literally nothing else to improve local infrastructure'.
There's been a considerable breakdown of the social contract recently I feel, people assume that anything the government does necessarily involves shitting on ordinary people somehow. As trust in the establishment weakens, conspiracy theories take hold with alternative explanations for why things are getting worse. The reality is we have this insane situation where councils are responsible for adult social care when our age pyramid is getting completely bent out of shape worsening the dependency ratio (ie there's less workers per pensioner to pay for their support). Council budgets are cut as the consequences of the dependency ratio bite worse and worse, in many cases councils are essentially care home providers who occasionally fill in a pothole or collect bins.
What we really need is to take social care out of the hands of councils and put it into the hands of central government which actually has the resources to deal with the Herculean task of managing our worsening dependency ratio. This way councils will be able to actually do council things again, and there'll be incentives to actually build good shit for the future rather than focussing entirely on extracting revenue from the public to fill gaps in Westminster's petulent underfunding.
Complex-Setting-7511@reddit
"people expect it will all stick and no carrot"
Yes, this, however it's not even what we expect, we know this for a 100% fact.
There is literally a zero chance that throughout the country every single 15 minute diameter area (guessing this is around a mile across) will receive nice new amenities and infrastructure and public transport links, before the cameras and fines are in place.
Infact there is zero chance that each 1 mile area will receive new amenities, infrastructure, and public transport links even after the cameras/fines are set up.
chrisrazor@reddit
I don't know much about what's happening with social care, but I think generally you're right that people have - with good reason - come to distrust government initiatives, be they local or central. If people are to be weaned off dependency on eg cars, first good alternatives need to be created.
It probably doesn't matter too much which brach of government these impulses come from - although local implementation may be better simply because details are likely to vary by area.
The main problem is, as usual, that a tiny minority is sucking up all the resources, leaving the rest of us scrambling for scraps. So, however well intentioned, any initiative ends up compromised and a bit shit.
Henno212@reddit
So you happy staying with the city? And not going anywhere else? As it will incur charges/ etc
GoodGrapeVimtoFiend@reddit (OP)
Yeah no, that’s not going to happen.
Jealous-Accountant70@reddit
Why are you so sure though that this will not happen?
Take London for example - the infrastructure is already in place and drivers of older cars are already being charged simply to use them. Currently it is based on Euro 4 petrol cars, however nothing to stop the minimum being Euro 5, 6, any specific CO2/km or above car etc.
Equally the London Assembly is reviewing the viability of pay per mile charging within the city - so in the future cars may be charged more for entering certain areas or charged more per mile after they drive more then x miles in a day.
We can argue the reasoning behind it, pollution reduction, climate change, government control, forcing people out of cars into public transport - some of the Left would support the first points, some on the Right would point out the possibility of the latter points. Equally it might all be a way to raise more tax revenue - likely a combination
The point is trust in government is at an all time low, whether it is profligacy, mismanagement, incompetence, deliberate - to be so sure this won't happen appears a rather naive stance to take. I wouldn't trust the government, local or central, to not try and nudge me into doing what they consider 'correct' and make me pay for the privilege if I don't!
Nipso@reddit
Your fundamental assumption running through this comment is that "going somewhere" is the same thing as "driving".
just_some_guy65@reddit
It seems to be a standard thing for the tinfoil hat people to go on about.
Tinfoil hat people are almost invariably mentally ill or educationally subnormal so there is zero point engaging with them on this as I discovered not that long ago.
CCFC1998@reddit
Because liveable cities with basic amenities within easy walking/ cycling distance are bad for big oil & car companies profit margins
GoogleUserAccount2@reddit
The more I hear from the right's numerous moral panics the more I'm convinced they've spontaneously organized into a grift that's meant to keep the progressives out of power by any means necessary.
feel-the-avocado@reddit
the only problem is 15 minutes is too far. i take my car to the corner store and thats the way i like it.
_Rookwood_@reddit
As a driver in a city policies which fall under the fifteen minute city umbrella make driving more expensive and inconvenient.
I like the idea of walkable communities, with all your amenities nearby. However I don't trust government, in particular the local numpties in the council to get it right.
InformationNew66@reddit
The whole 15 minute city idea is nonsense.
It falls down when it gets to the point of "but where will you work". Most workplaces are further than 15 minutes, that means you will have to commute and spend 30-50 minutes to travel to the workplace and then back, and be there from 9 to 5.
So where's the 15 minutes in that?
photism78@reddit
I can have almost anything delivered and I can work from home. Feels like a "30 second to the front door" city.
Hcmp1980@reddit
Oxford Council had plans to implement this. At the same time they wanted to implement traffic calming measures that were designed to put people off driving from one district of the city to another. Essentially you had 100 free passes to do so a year, then you had to pay.
People HATED the idea. Too controlling. Disadvantaged women (who disproportionately have childcare and adult caring duties and need to do lots stops), and disabled people.
It got wrapped up in the 15 minute city launch and forever inter-twinned.
Became a political football.
Anxious_wank@reddit
I can only assume they don't live in a new housing estate, I don't either, but I have most the Lidl/Aldis within ten minute walking distance, the choice of avoiding the corner shops and Co op as they're usually more expensive. The ability do walk a little bit further and a two big supermarkets about a 30 minute walk away, so 1.5 mile and I can't imagine living without that access that doesn't require a car even though I have a car and drive.
Obviously rural areas never had that level of access but most had space for the little shops to avoid driving even if driving is what inevitable brings them closer to having to shut down, the options to use that shop was there.
I've visited/seen some of the new build estates where the choice to walk isn't there, there's no shops, barely any greenery, and the ability to do a quick walk to the shops and back just doesn't exist because that walk is now 3 miles there and 3 miles back and that blows my mind why anyone would be happy with that.
tradandtea123@reddit
A lot of them point to a proposal in Oxford which was basically a bus lane that local people could drive in something like 50 times a year. They decided this meant they couldn't leave their area more than 50 times a year despite there being plenty of other roads. They became so obsessed by the idea and so many put it on the Internet as evidence that no sensible reasoning can convince them otherwise.
1CharlieMike@reddit
That’s basically it as someone who used to live nearby.
Oxford has a ring road. The most efficient way to get to different parts of Oxford is to leave your suburb, go onto the (very good) ring road, and then enter the city at a different part to get to your destination.
But car drivers insist on wanting to drive through the extremely densely built medieval city centre where the roads are completely unsuitable for cars (and it’s mostly one way or blocked off roads anyway, and has been since I moved there over a decade ago).
After spending decades on making the city more pedestrian and bike friendly, the planners now want to enforce use of the ring road for car drivers to make it even safer and to stop emissions continuing to destroy the precious ancient buildings made of fragile Headington Sandstone.
But car drivers (of which frankly there are few in Oxford these days unless you’re wealthy enough to afford a driveway), seem to think their right to drive through a medieval city centre trumps everyone else’s right to safety, health, and heritage.
Kapha_Dosha@reddit
I have no idea, and haven't thought about this topic at all recently, even though I read about it a while back, but if I try to put myself in the shoes of someone who might be opposed to it, I would guess that one perspective, who gets to decide who lives in the nice part and therefore has access to everything within 15 minutes of it, and who doesn't.
monkeysinmypocket@reddit
They've been told to get angry about them by the propagandists who do their thinking for them. That's as deep as it goes.
Alarmed_Ste@reddit
The best argument I've heard against it is basically it's been tried before and they have all descended into ghettos or no go areas. This was over a work meal with engineers, PMs and logistics managers none of which in my opinion know the ins and outs, but the guys arguing against definitely knew more than me about the subject.
I didn't believe them, still not sure I do but they gave examples like Park Hill in Sheffield. It was meant to be an early version of the 15 min city but ended up as a horrible place which eventually was abandoned until recently.
They also used similar examples from South Africa and China. I don't know enough about them to have a strong opinion either way but from the limited knowledge I have compared to what I was told I couldn't find a way to disprove them.
It basically boiled down to - it sounds nice in theory but in practice it's a nightmare. People live wildly different lives and condensing that many people into one area either needs to be very heavily regulated and policed or the worst in the area make everyone else's life hell.
1CharlieMike@reddit
And yet the UK is built on towns where everything is 15 mins away…
“No, not like THOSE towns” they say. “15 min towns would be different.”
🤷♀️
1CharlieMike@reddit
I’m always confused by the resistance to 15 minute cities.
I live in a medieval market town. Almost EVERYTHING is within a 15 minute walk. The only time I ever use my car is if I’m going to B&Q (30 minute walk and I usually buy heavy stuff), or if I’m driving to work (twice a week, a 30 minute drive).
Coconelli40@reddit
It will be shit just like everything else the govt touches. And you'll have to participate.
tiringandretiring@reddit
I think I live in one. Two train stations, multiple bus lines, several grocery stores, post office, large shopping streets, restaurants, shops, government offices, parks, schools, all within a 15 minute walk. It is pretty great.
Doogle300@reddit
It is change, so therefore they fear it.
I guarantee if you asked them if they liked the idea of all the aspects of a 15 minute city as standalone questions, they would support all of them.
fn3dav2@reddit
Well virtually everyone who doesn't live in the countryside already has common amenities within 15 minutes of home. So if a British politician or activist is advocating to change things to make "15-minute cities", it's likely they are advocating for surveillance or tolling.
SophieCalle@reddit
It's nutters. Literally all small villages and european small towns have been "15 minute cities" forever.
These same people have zero issue with Elon Musk and Peter Thiel making MAJOR cities be total police states and support them fully.
They are completely lost in the sauce.
H16HP01N7@reddit
Ignorant, right wing, nut jobs.
So, just the normal fucking morons we don't need to listen to.
After-Cell@reddit
I don't think its possible without taking away sunlight?
GoodGrapeVimtoFiend@reddit (OP)
Eh?
After-Cell@reddit
I think the instinctive assumption people have is that for everything to be accessible, tall buildings are going to be blocking out the sun.
In a 15min city, access to everything should include the sun. Sunlight (and fresh air) is absolutely crucial to human health. I think the reason why people are skeptical of the 15min city concept is because most people have experienced and city and the countryside, and they know where they're happiest, but it's actually the sunlight doing that.
I think these are people's concerns.
I live in a 15min city, Hong Kong, so if anyone has any questions, please ask. The main gripes for me living here are noise pollution from constant apartment renovation, the aforementioned sunlight issue, and traffic. Traffic noise and air pollution should get better with electric cars. For sunlight I just have to take an hour out of my day to address it. For noise there's noise cancelling headphones, but this isn't the best solution by far considering sleeping and ear infections.
TeetheMoose@reddit
It only makes conspiracy theorists angry, because they are paranoid AF. The rest of us see that it's a good thing. In fact if people thought about it, they'd realise they already live in one. My town certainly is.
Dominax_Ferrosi@reddit
Everyone else has hit the nail on the head about conspiracy theorists thinking of 15-min cities as a measure of control rather than a chance to improve neighborhoods but i think it's worth exploring why people start to believe this (spoilers: it's because of the built environment)
If you think about someone living in a newbuild estate or even town that's only connected by car and the possibly daily bus, you begin to wonder how many people actually rely on their car to do, well, anything. If you were stuck in a place like that, and 2020 happened, and all you could do is go to the big shop in your car, and the stress of lockdown turned your mind conspiratorial, it seems almost logical that a constituency of people would emerge who were terrified at the prospect of losing a car and a place to drive it because it is the only way to not be trapped at home.
This is probably too speculative to be entirely accurate, but the main point here is that i think the response to anti-LTN people should be more sympathetic, given that a lot of the way modern Britain is built is in a way that creates enormous social atomisation in terms of opportunity and even distance from community.
People get forced into their cars by design and into conspiracy by effect, and the solution isn't going to be handwaving conspiracists away since its mostly just an attempt to rationalise and order the irrational and haphazard way our society seperates people from other people.
Afraid_Simple_4061@reddit
TLDR. I'm an old git and remember when we had '15 minute towns', but they were just how towns were in Those days. Nobody was under government control because of it, and no one felt compelled to never leave their area.
Ok, I haven't read all the replies, but... I'm 50 this year, and when I was a kid our primary/junior school was a five minute walk away. Our town centre was a 10 minute walk away, our local swing park was a five minute walk away. The nearest bus stop to get us to the town centre was only two minutes up the road (but only ten minutes to walk to town centre anyway). There wasn't a supermarket in the guise they are now, selling clothes and car stuff and books etc. there was a Sainsbury in the town, a butcher, a baker (no candlestick maker though). Fish and chip shop, video rental, electronic shop, library, snooker hall, pubs, cafe and all sorts. We were allowed to go further if we wanted/ needed to. It was normal.
This wasn't some rural outpost... this was in one of the London suburbs (greater London).
Then, back in the mid 80s they built a shopping centre and all the little high street shops shut down. Then Lakeside shopping centre was built over in Essex and our shopping centre started losing trade as we are not far from the Dartford crossings. Then Bluewater was built and our area lost more business. Everyone was driving to 'out of town' shopping centres with restaurants and cinemas and all that.
Now some people can see benefits in having things closer to home, like we used to... but apparently it's all so the government can control and herd us. A couple of my mates, same age bracket, believe it is a control thing... and they should remember how convenient it was when we were younger. I don't get why people are so against it.
Glittering-Device484@reddit
The majority of Brits prefer policies that hurt people who aren't them over policies that improve life for everyone.
GoodGrapeVimtoFiend@reddit (OP)
I still hold out some hope that those people are just a loud minority.
Klumm@reddit
Bloody hell I’ve just been to Germany and the US. More than 15 minutes away from my East Anglia home.
GoodGrapeVimtoFiend@reddit (OP)
They let you out or you escaped?
Klumm@reddit
I did have a couple of officers round my house when I got back, but that was because I drove 16 minutes away from my house. Luckily I only got a fine.
GoodGrapeVimtoFiend@reddit (OP)
I lived in East Anglia for a bit - I understand the motivation to try and leave.
mist3rdragon@reddit
The funny thing is that there are plenty of areas in the UK that conform to these principles incidentally. I live near the Tyne & Wear Metro, I can walk to any vital amenities you could name within 20 minutes and I'm 20 minutes by public transport from city centres on top of that for basically any other leisure purposes that aren't close by foot.
Can you imagine telling someone who lives in my area that it would be more ideal if everything was spread out and more difficult to walk to? It'd be a ludicrous thing to say.
CaterpillarLoud8071@reddit
If you don't need to leave your area, you don't need a car and a future government could use environmental rules to stop people from using or owning cars, enabling the government to trap them in their local area by cutting off public transport? Or something like that. Idk.
GoodGrapeVimtoFiend@reddit (OP)
But why would they want to do that?
Different_Exam_6442@reddit
There's a chip shop near me that always has a stack of a conspiracy theory newspaper. I occasionally take one to see what's coming up in the conspiracy world.
There was a lot about 15 minute cities in it for a while. I used to work in transport planning so I tried to keep up with who was pushing what.
The 15 minute cities issue comes from a few places. There's people who are annoyed that low traffic neighbourhood's exist because it slightly inconveniences them and don't want to admit that they're just kinda lazy. But also there's reporting that it's actually a government plan to trap people in their zone so they can control everyone more. I live in a small town where everything is already 15 minute walk from everything else, and there's still people here furious about the concept.
I do worry that there's someone deliberately preying on disinformation and conspiracy thinking, because the same messages pop up from different channels all at once, and then a few months later they're on to a new thing. But then... I guess that's still a conspiracy theory.
Teembeau@reddit
OK, so I'm not "angry" about it. But you should understand this is how things were back in the 1970s and there's reasons we stopped doing it.
Back in the 70s, you'd have people living on estates. Men generally went to work, women home. And the things they wanted were within 15 minutes. Near me, there was a butcher, a newsagent, a hairdresser, a grocer and a hardware store.
You think the hairdresser does a bad job, what are you going to do? How about the butcher is incompetent at getting enough meat in? The grocer has bread that's going stale, and barely any choice of it? Oh, and all of these services work 9 to 5, so you can't go to work?
The world of cars and supermarkets is what had to happen for women to work. Shops that are open late, with excellent stock management, that you can go to after work. It raised the quality of everything because crappy little shops went out of business because now people could access a wider choice of suppliers. Honestly, the customer service in most of these shops was atrocious. The choice of products was rubbish too. And it was all much more expensive without the scale of large supermarkets.
15 Minute Cities are not going to happen because forcing people into a load of poor choices won't be accepted.
mist3rdragon@reddit
Go to a different hairdresser or grocer. Nobody is forcing you to go to the one you live closest to. The idea is that people shouldn't need to travel by car for amenities, not that they can't should they want to.
The concept of 15 minute cities doesn't require "crappy little shops", nobody is taking away your Tesco.
GoodGrapeVimtoFiend@reddit (OP)
I can understand that to an extent, but what if people were closer to amenities? Show me a town this country that doesn’t have empty offices in the centre or boarded up shops - even pre pandemic. Maybe rigid zoning could be loosened.
Teembeau@reddit
I mean, yes. We could make a lot better use of space in towns instead of having it empty. It's a scandalous waste of valuable land. When towns used to largely decide their own planning regulations it didn't happen because they would maximise the use of land for the greater good of the town. They'd rather collect rates from a house than nothing. The planning regulations in this country have been centralised and bureaucratised and it's like having communists in charge of it.
prustage@reddit
A|re you joking? If you have a 15 minute city then people wont need their cars. Then how are the car manufacturers gong to make a profit? What about the poor oil barons - if people stop filling up with gasoline these guys might have to start selling their yachts and real estate!
As for the "people" being so angry - its the media thats angry, not the people. And guess who owns the media?
itsyaboiReginald@reddit
Astroturfing from the fossil fuel and car industries.
Cult-Film-Fan-999@reddit
Conspiracy theorists have mistaken a town planning concept with a batshit crazy idea that we'll be forcibly confined to our local area.
itsyaboiReginald@reddit
And Astroturfed by fossil fuel companies to ensure people stay reliant on cars.
Zs93@reddit
Honestly I think a lot of people just hate walking
this-guy-@reddit
What it actually is: "wouldn't it be nice if there was a baker, butcher and doctor on the high street and a nice place to exercise nearby rather than a massive drive away. Like. If you could nip out to a cafe or bar near your house. ".
What lunatics hear "you will be in a walled enclosure with gun turrets and issues NWO food credits. You will own nothing and if you are not happy we will kill you"
I live in a "15 minute city" anyway, and I can walk or cycle to anything I want. And yes, it is nice. Other than the gun turrets and the big wall around me of course.
marsman@reddit
Isn't the issue more that the intention might be that it would be great if there were a baker, butcher, doctor and dentist on the high street, a local primary school, good transport links to secondary schools and other facilities etc.. But the initial plan is that there are going to be road closures enforced by cameras, roads blocked, parking restrictions and so on, and the things you actually need (That are currently much further away and hard to get to on foot, by bike or on public transport) aren't going to be put in place for a while..?
It's that the initial push on these is generally the restrictions rather than the improved amenities..
Less_Mess_5803@reddit
Yes the implementation is shockingly poor. The irony is most places DID used to be more like a '15 minute city'. High streets existed with actual shops, local Dr's etc. Then came supermarkets decimating high streets. My nan never drove, she could get everything locally or a short bus ride away. Now we have swung so far the other way it's impossible to return to that model. 2yrs ago my dentist was bought out by a large company who then closed it, at the same time as they closed 2 other dentists and opened a dental hub 5 miles away. But the government's answer to all this is more bloody coffee shops and closing roads.
marsman@reddit
I've said the same thing elsewhere in this thread, between centralisation for efficiencies sake (large supermarkets etc..) and cost cutting by Government (local and national) I feel like we've moved away from lots of small clusters of amenities/facilities to larger ones further away (the same for schools too btw..). Reversing that is possible, but it'd take time and money that I'm not sure is being spent. The same goes for things like public transport links too.
bopeepsheep@reddit
Yeah - I'm in Oxford, in one of these LTN areas. If they built more schools, doctors' surgeries, etc in every area of the city - great! But all our hospitals are in one area (Headington) so everyone with an appointment needs to come here at some point, which has knock-on effects on parking, traffic, bus routes, etc. But they have made very few improvements to those.
redunculuspanda@reddit
Oxford isn’t a 15 minute city. LTNs and 15 minute cities and a lot of other nonsense is deliberately conflated together.
The purpose of LTNs is to reduce traffic.
The reason “they” didn’t build 15 minute city infrastructure as part of the LTN is because there is no “they”.
bopeepsheep@reddit
It was very prominent in the Local Plan 2040, which has only just been withdrawn (for housing reasons, not infrastructure around that proposed housing). "They" are the city council and county council.
redunculuspanda@reddit
The city council didn’t implement “15 minute cities”
The council obviously doesn’t have the power to do any of the things the conspiracy claims. Local government is not as exciting as you imagine. The local plan isn’t a conspiracy.
Do you genuinely believe Oxford city council is part of a global conspiracy to take over the world?
bopeepsheep@reddit
No. I do believe they had a genuine interest in the positive benefits of 15 minute neighbourhoods, but they have currently abandoned the concept because the planning difficulties are too great. I never said there was any conspiracy - are you mistaking my comments for someone else's?
ComeHereUk@reddit
No, you are mixing up 15 minute neighbourhoods with low traffic neighbourhoods. Yes, an area can be both but it doesn't necessarily have to be. 15 minute neighbourhoods are just about being able to walk or cycle to local facilities. Who wouldn't want to be within walking distance of somewhere to get a drink?
marsman@reddit
I'm not, although I can see why some people are. There is a bit of an overlap between straight up traffic reductions in the LTN's and the methods used to try and reduce broader travel (And encourage local usage) within 15 minute cities.
And again, I agree with you. I live in an area that happens to meet all the requirement of a 15 minute city and its great, it'd be pretty awesome if that could be more of a thing. I don't need to drive, I have good local public transport too (well beyond the 15 minute thing...) and it just works.
That said, I'd argue that the issue is that we've lost a lot over the last two decades that could have supported it, essentially cuts have forced centralisation (health, schools, libraries etc..) and that has dragged shops along with it (loss of footfall etc..) and issues with public transport (outside of London and a few other areas). And again, there is definitely an issue with councils presenting a plan that either is a 15 minute city plan, or something essentially equivalent, but the only elements being implemented are things like road closures and reorganisation.
And again, I don't think that's intentional on the part of councils, but it seems to happen more often than not. As I said, where my parents currently live, there was a plan (actually built into the initial planning for a couple of large developments...) to have central amenities, transport links and so on.
The road network was both altered and designed with that in mind (the new build areas have massive estates with what supposed to be a very walkable central area with space for shops, a GP/Dentists, library, community space etc.. and small bendy roads, with only one entry point into an area with hundreds of houses), but then the support for the amenities essentially fell away.
The result is that the public transport links are now not really useful (they don't link to anything...), the road layout is now not fit for purpose and you have a lot of cycling and walking infrastructure that doesn't go anywhere useful (not that that it isn't nice to be able to cycle and walk around a massive estate, it's just that you can't really cycle or walk off it, or get to a shop, school, library, doctors etc.. without driving.
Now on the plus side, at least it has been designed with these things in mind, so it's something that should be viable at any point where either there is private investment to meet demand, or suddenly more cash available to actually deliver. That said, in the interim, the outcome is worse for everyone in the new builds, the people in the existing housing have had various roads essentially closed off, and what was a meandering bus route through some housing are now all offset onto a major road (which also has a lot more traffic so you can imagine what that's done..).
In all seriousness, I love being able to stumble home from the pub in 3 minutes, being able to grab a kebab or a burger, or get my hair cut within 5 minutes, go to the gym or go for a swim within 2 minutes, wander down to a full sized supermarket in 3 or 4 (this does lead to demands for icecream from partners at 5 to closing time though...). I have busses and trams within a couple of minutes and via those a major train station within 10. It's a great way to live, it means I could live without a car easily, I can walk to almost anywhere I want and I have decent (recreational...) cycling close by too.
If you could pick that up and transplant it I'd be all for it, I think the vast majority of people would (its like living in a well serviced village, albeit with more people and a higher population density, and broader gene pool). The problem is that essentially to do that, step 1 needs to be the amenities and the facilities, and they often seem to be sort of step 12..
Oh, I also have a fair bit of open public space, something else that seems to be dying in much of the country..
ComeHereUk@reddit
You make some excellent points. And you've highlighted the issues that I face as a transport planner when things get watered down or amended by those in power who think they know better!
marsman@reddit
Since this is something you do, any chance you could give me an idea of how this is supposed to work from a planning perspective? It just seems so problematic a lot of the time, and so not-joined up across councils - I was under the impression there is supposed to be a masterplan over years that other things are supposed to slot into, but it never quite feels that way!
ComeHereUk@reddit
I get involved in the layouts for new developments. You start with the walking routes, then cycling, then public transport etc. at the hierarchy. It's not about preventing movement by private cars generally just making the other choices more prominent. The problem is a lot of the work is done in isolation and a lot of the time the 'experts' are still teaching the councils what they should be doing. Then the issue is you are often limited with the space available to make major off-site improvements and it's hard to get joined up thinking particularly across county boundaries. So it can end up a bit piecemeal. Things are improving but it will take time.
marsman@reddit
Aha! Then the disaster that is my parent's current estate is your fault!
Yeah I think you can see that in the planning on their estate, it doesn't prevent movement, but if you go and wander randomly (which I did a few times when they moved there, because I wanted a look around - mostly somewhat in horror, my house is from the 1890's, and everywhere I've ever wanted to live has been somewhere established and 'organically' grown as it were...), you'd end up in the are that had been designated for the shops/doctors etc.. and you'd sort of funnel past bits of open ground/parks etc.. And from there it was easy enough to get to where the public transport links in where supposed to be too.
It really sort of worked in the sense that you were at most 5 minutes from the shop bit, and so essentially 10 minutes from anywhere, from anywhere, and that across a deceptively large estate.
I'm not sure that all of it will stand up massively well long term (There are a few places where people have put up quite large fences for example, creating fairly secluded walkways with corners, something I thought from a crime prevention perspective could be a bit problematic, but at the moment the isolation, or self-contained nature of the estate sort of plays in favour of that for now.
Makes sense I suppose, it just feels like (and again, locally to me, cancellation of bus services at the same time they were trying to reduce traffic..) there are a lot of relatively small wins out there, that don't get pursued (for whatever reason), and then attempts at big changes that only seem to get half way to completion.. It's a real shame given the real impact this has so often, and how much it changes peoples enjoyment of the areas they live in.
Quick-Low-3846@reddit
You’ve got a point there. The idea is a great one, the implementation by councils can be pretty poor. Like science being funded by multinational corporations.
marsman@reddit
The idea is fantastic, I mean granted one of the reasons I bought my house where I did was that I could get by without a car if I wanted to, and I don't drive short distances unless I can't avoid it, and most people where I live are broadly in the same boat, because you don't need to. It works as a thing, and even in the relatively deprived area I live in, I think it improves the quality of everyone's lives..
But the point I'd make is that you can achieve that by having those facilities/amenities in the right places, yet if I look beyond my local area (and a lot of this is luck rather than planning) you see closed community centres/libraries/schools etc.. Fewer pubs, shops and so on. That makes it much harder for people (even in quite dense urban areas). And I live really close to a load of different public transport options, if I lived a mile further south, It'd be a slog to get anywhere..
Routine_Ad1823@reddit
Yeah, I basically live in one too and I LOVE it.
Especially coming from a big city previous, but one with terrible transport links that needed a lot of busy driving
robowns87@reddit
The proposal somehow caught the interest of online conspiracy nutjobs and spread from there.
HDK1989@reddit
Brainwashing on social media and on certain TV channels, it really is that simple.
ban_jaxxed@reddit
Untreated mental illness
WorriedHelicopter764@reddit
Usually misunderstanding of what they actually are/ fear porn/ distrust of authority
Remarkable-Ad155@reddit
Is this still a "thing"? Time was a 15 min city was a selling point.
LNGBandit77@reddit
It was the selling point. The idea is that every thing you will ever need will be in 15 minutes.
rikkiprince@reddit
During COVID, right wing conspiracy theorists manufactured the lie that 15 minute cities were a move by governments to further remove the public's freedoms, after forcing everyone to inject 5G microchips into their bloodstream.
There was quite a lot of effort to spread the misinformation. Lots of podcasters, social media influencers and the like were reporting it as fact. I personally assume there must have been some lobbying by the car manufacturers and petroleum industry, as they have a vested interest in cities not being walkable.
I think the 15 minute city would have more impact in North America. Every city I've lived and worked in in the UK or visited in Europe are dense, pretty walkable and had decent enough public transport to use on a daily basis.
wlondonmatt@reddit
They believe that they wouldnt be able to leave the 15 minute area and see the covid lockdowns as evidence that this is happening (Despite the lockdowns being reversed)
It also ignores all the government infrasturucture projects that are obly beneficial for travelling further than 15 minutes away (Like HS2,Crossrail, hearhrow expansion etc etc)
tman612@reddit
Many people who lack critical thinking or education due to a variety of reasons are prone to falling for fake news and conspiracy theories posed by bad actors with malicious intent.
ilDucinho@reddit
Of course it sounds good in theory. Communism is great in theory too.
The reality is that:
A) The government can’t plan or organise anything, even vaguely efficiently. We can all come with a nice idea, but what actually leads to better outcomes is letting the free market decide. This means that sometimes people have to drive more than 15 mins, sorry.
B) If these 15min cities were to come into play, at best, what would happen is you’d have some that work well and some that have nothing. 1 terrible school, 1 understocked supermarket, nothing to do socially. People would then move to the outskirts of the good 15 mins cities and there’d be no net benefit.
C) The Gov. have already shown they are really using this as an excuse to deprive people of freedom. Restrict their movement. Restrict their ability to drive. Possibly to hit arbitrary climate targets. Possibly because it just makes them feel good to have power and to control people.
It’s quite simply impossible to live a good lifestyle in a 15 mins city. There are loads of places I need to drive to to buy stuff or enjoy a new experience. A nice country pub. A furniture shop. Driving to Scotland. Driving to the cinema or London.
The Government wants to paint this as some absurd luxury and say I should either just not do it at all, or should take twice as long with twice as much smell and danger with public transport.
txakori@reddit
Thie idea behind “15 minute cities” is that all your basic essentials should be within 15 minutes worth of travel- like there should be a parade of shops within walking distance that can cater for the majority of your needs (i.e. how most towns in the UK are or used to be within living memory), not that you’re only allowed within a 15 minute radius of where you live. I have no clue why people think otherwise.
ilDucinho@reddit
This is why, locally:
https://www.thebridgeburford.co.uk/post/the-end-of-the-15-minute-city-plan
More generally, almost every single Government plan ends up like this.
If they just said, it would be nice if local areas had more amenities within walking distance, that would be fine.
As soon as the Government feels they have a mandate to force this, then taxes go up, money gets wasted, freedoms go down.
If there is organic demand for schools and shops in a local area they should be built for that reason. Beyond that, we shouldn’t force what the market can’t tolerate.
txakori@reddit
Did you know that you can now save £££ by getting your tin foil hats pre-made from Amazon, saving you the hassle and fuss of making them yourself?
Cybermanc@reddit
If you can picture Grampa Simpson clenching his fist and shouting at clouds, that's your answer.
factualreality@reddit
The problem/concern is that they can be used as an excuse for local councils to make it harder for people to move between local areas (blocking roads etc), rather than councils actually improving local services and amenities so people just don't need/want to. The first is much cheaper.
glasgowgeg@reddit
Nobody is advocating the first one.
Coolio2510@reddit
The councils and government is
glasgowgeg@reddit
Any examples of them actively supporting you being banned from leaving the 15 minute cities?
Primary source please, not third party nonsense from the fearmongering press.
factualreality@reddit
I didn't say people were banned from leaving, just that the idea can be used as an excuse to limit traffic without appropriate other services being put in place.
For a case in point, try googling 'oxford 15 minute city road closures' for a whole range of links. They have now dropped the 15m city excuse from the city planning although continue with the general plan for filters and restrictions.
If they want people out of cars and on buses (not an unreasonable aim), then they need to spend money on making the bus services sufficiently attractive, not forcing cars onto fewer roads to sit there in artificially worsened traffic making the air worse not better, as they are currently doing.
glasgowgeg@reddit
"The problem/concern is that they can be used as an excuse for local councils to make it harder for people to move between local areas"
Nah, you can source your own argument.
factualreality@reddit
If you google the phrase I gave you, it will give you multiple links which show the history to Oxford's scheme. You asked for a source, I have given you a way to get multiple.
This scheme involves road filters reading number plates which charge people moving directly between the different city areas, with allowances for residents. People are not 'banned from leaving,' that is hyperbole, they are however to be fined to incentivise them to use different roads and not easily move between neighbourhoods. They have made the travel harder, as I said. They have not banned anyone from leaving, which is a nonsense claim. This is basic reading comprehension.
You made me laugh at the idling is illegal bit. If the traffic is jammed, cars have no choice but to sit in it and inch forward slowly. Oxford traffic is appalling and shutting of minor through roads (which they have already started) makes the jams worse as more cars are forced onto the main roads.
glasgowgeg@reddit
No, you can provide your own source rather than expecting others to do the work.
If it's jammed you sit in place with your engine off.
factualreality@reddit
Why should I? You asked a question, I am trying to help you by answering it, if you want to continue in ignorance that is not my problem.
The last sentence is ridiculous. You turn your engine off in stationary traffic. This is very slow moving, stop start traffic. They are not just sitting there all day not moving.
glasgowgeg@reddit
Because you made a daft claim, the burden of proof lies with you.
marianorajoy@reddit
That's just a conspiracy theory. The council is always working for my benefit. The people that believe that believe in vaccines, 5g loonies and Megan Markle. Read the comments.
just_burn_it_all@reddit
What amenities would a 15 minute city have though?
By the time its built, 80% of retail will be purely online. Most regional towns cant even afford to sustain their own hospital these days, so it ends up being county level.
That'd leave schools, gyms, libraries (maybe defunct by then?), some convenience stores (which are already within 15 minutes anwyay)
OldGuto@reddit
One reason is Oxford's LTN and other similar schemes have become conflated with 15 min cities. Another reason is too many people who are pro 15min cities are also anti-car, so it's not too far a logical jump for people to think that once they exist they'll be used as an excuse to restrict car use.
As an aside it's worth remembering reddit is not representative of the 'real world' when it comes to work as it's very heavily skewed toward WfH. ONS data shows that even during the lockdowns most people didn't WfH, so being anti-car and hence seen as anti-worker is very dangerous ground.
macrowe777@reddit
Literally just US propaganda leaking across the pond to the least of us.
OperationMission8254@reddit
How many people really are that angry? Is this all just manufactured controversy in search of clicks?
The Media: Wholemeal bread is healthier than white bread.
Reddit: Yawn.
The Media: A random on X just called wholemeal bread 'woke'. And you won't believe what happened next!
Reddit: Right, let me explain at great length why wholemeal bread is so very wholesome.
non_person_sphere@reddit
People are mental and love driving to the shops. It's the exact same people who chopped down 5G towers because they thought they were controlling people's minds or something.
ComfortableAd8326@reddit
Right-wing vested interests don't like sustainability as a concept. They've successfully astro-turfed their base with outlandish conspiracy theories
hloba@reddit
I'm convinced it's driven by car and oil companies. At the very least, they will have tried to fan the flames if they know what's good for them. Large businesses get up to all kinds of imaginative activities behind the scenes, whether it's Merck creating fake medical journals or eBay sending packages of spiders and animal organs to their critics' houses.
The main conspiracy theory that I don't have a conspiracy theory about is the flat earth thing. I don't see who benefits from that. It doesn't even really seem to be directed at anyone in particular. I think it just happened by chance and they all sincerely believe it.
sgbea_13@reddit
Because no-one asked for them and we don't like this shit being forced on us.
HavokGB@reddit
The fifteen minutes city concept sounds good on paper, shops and services spread out better, better public transport, better organised paths etc, but when it comes to implementing it, non of that stuff actually happens. Instead, by the time it comes to implementation, all that’s been cut and all that’s left is closing off streets to make it more difficult to get about by car, trying to force people into using inadequate, overpriced public transport by making driving worse, instead of making the alternatives better.
There doesn’t need to be any conspiracy theory to convince people to dislike it, it’s a crap idea all on its own.
Building an actual fifteen minute city takes decades of careful planning and implementation, gradually migrating businesses and services, and moving and improving the public transport to fit. Trying to force people to travel less by blocking streets with planters in order to force all the traffic though a single junction is the height of midwittery. It’s local council workers trying to live up to buzzwords they don’t understand.
BenFranklinsCat@reddit
99pi did an episode on this: https://open.spotify.com/episode/0ujUnWVCmttRBtYhpQLhDv?si=FHIQ7LdeQ0KUKvrOHDDizg
Essentially it's a combination of propaganda nonsense and the way people read into things.
infinite_spirals@reddit
In Europe it's just how things were before motorways and hypermarkets. Hard to get paranoid about something so normal.
In USA it's an evil left wing plot. But then so is anything that suggests motorways and hypermarkets aren't always good in literally any location.
entersandmum143@reddit
I live in a small Northern English town.
Everything from 2 supermarkets, the high street, a surprisingly large amount of pubs, bars and restaurants, the library, the town hall etc....is within 15mins WALKING distance
There's still nutjobs within the residents' association who bleat on about on about 15 min cities. They're also the 1st to complain that the town doesn't have an "insert niche shop" and they have to drive out of the area.
grrrranm@reddit
Because it's an open air prison! Trapped in your area, penalised & discouraged from travelling anywhere else for environmental reasons, but yet the people who govern have private jets & go to Davos 4 times a year!
Street_Inflation_124@reddit
People are morons, and believe bullshit.
That’s literally it.
Imwaymoreflythanyou@reddit
Because “communism” and “woke” idk I’ve given up trying to understand such people.
FraGough@reddit
Because they're being enacted with sticks, not carrots.
(I'm not talking about the nutjob conspiracy theorists, they're a different problem)
BlackOwl2424@reddit
Boomer conspiracies
Pashizzle14@reddit
Propaganda from the automotive industry + deep state type conspiracies went mainstream, pulling in the otherwise ‘moderate’ people who probably just don’t want to slow down for cyclists and think bus lanes slow down their commute, and radicalising them against one very niche urbanism concept somehow.
TheMusicArchivist@reddit
In Bristol the council have been removing access to some roads except for pedestrians and bikes in order to make it more pleasant to walk to the local shops (which are within 15mins walk). People want to drive down any road they see whether they need to or not.
blackleydynamo@reddit
15 minute cities are, and have always been, just the idea that everything you need to live should be within a 15 minute walk if you choose to walk. Supermarket, bank, post office, school, doctor, pharmacist, public transport links. If you want to drive to the opposite side of London to do your shopping, knock yourself out, but it shouldn't be necessary, is the basic principal.
Morons and nutjobs like to spread the absolute horseshit conspiracy that "guvmint wants to lock us up in a 15 minute radius of where we live", because they're thick and can't read, or don't want to. There's a right wing pro-car lobby element to it, but it's mostly just fucking stupidity.
oudcedar@reddit
Cyclists. Anything that helps those dangerous selfish buggers is always bad for bus passengers and pedestrians.
DaveyBeefcake@reddit
It will increase inequality and segregation, planning and control will be impossible, so the whole idea simply can't be applied and is not practical, it assumes the facilities people need are already there or will magically appear, its just a poorly thought out idea all round. It would only really benefit wealthy and affluent areas.
Nine_Eye_Ron@reddit
They equate driving with freedom only, not active and public transport
Nine_Eye_Ron@reddit
They equate driving a car with freedom but not active or public transport
el-destroya@reddit
If you really want to get into it I'd recommend watching the philosophy tube video Why we can't build better cities. She covers the anti 15 minute cities movement but also the philosophy/politics/history of urban planning and why it is the way it is.
GoodGrapeVimtoFiend@reddit (OP)
She’s brilliant - I’ll have to watch that one!
toady89@reddit
They’re usually discussed alongside low emission zones leading people to believe the government are trying to confine people to a small area and that you’ll be fined for leaving.
shell-84@reddit
I would love to live in a 15min city. The luxury of having everything on my doorstep, bliss
Garth_Knight1979@reddit
Ignorance essentially. And reading too many conspiracy theories. As a Londoner, the average traffic speed across many streets, taking into account the constant stopping at pedestrian crossings and traffic lights amounts to around 20mph. London has gradually introduced this speed limit across many main streets. As a driver of both hybrid and full electric vehicles, I’ve realised that fuel and power consumption is very low at these speeds. In a hybrid, I’d be using stored battery power rather than the petrol. It definitely helps with efficiency. But many loons seem outraged they can’t drive at higher speeds
txakori@reddit
It doesn’t, not in the UK. Opposition to more walkable urban areas seems very much an American phenomenon.
Bumble072@reddit
Doesnt make me angry, just I dont see point of them. I mean we already have bus and train that takes anywhere with a lower pollution rate and at a cheap cost. Also I like travelling further for a change of scenery and meeting new people? But I guess towns in the traditional sense are kind of fading away.
OutsideWishbone7@reddit
It takes me 15 minutes to my town center … I love it. The town has a railway station and a good bus network to other towns. I can easily travel to another city if I want to. I can be in London in 1 hour 10 minutes, if I need to.
In 15 minutes I can also be in the countryside if I travel away from the town.
I love the idea of 15 minutes cities.
size_matters_not@reddit
The biggest problem with 15 minute cities is you’re never more than 15 minutes away from some nut job conspiracy theorist.
WVA1999@reddit
Ahh another buzzword from the ignorant, uneducated, mouth foamers. Usually in the same camp as: WEF, Digital Currency, Climate Change denial, etc etc.
ExcitementKooky418@reddit
I don't know a lot about it, but I think it boils down to the point of 15 minute cities is that you CAN get to wherever and whatever you need without trwv lying for more than 15 minutes
But those that opposed it, for whatever reason, try to portray it as you CAN'T go more than 15 minutes away, like it's some kind of mandatory curfew type thing
TopSpread9901@reddit
It’s American brainrot propaganda.
It’s fucking Europe. Most cities are walkable cities.
Zealousideal-Wash904@reddit
I don’t see why people have a problem with 15 minute cities. It wasn’t that long ago that our local high streets and town centres provided practically everything we needed within walking distance or a short bus ride. I would love to see a return to this way of life and our money being spent in supporting local businesses and workers.
PineappleFrittering@reddit
Jon Ronson's podcast Things Fell Apart has a good episode about where this anxiety about them came from. I think I already have a "15 minute city" life and it's pretty great 🤷♀️
yojifer680@reddit
They're not just giving people the option to walk, they're also trying to prevent people from driving. We've seen this through policies like LTNs. Apologists will claim they're unconnected, but soon the 15 minute cities will be used to justify more LTNs, more congestion charges, more anti-war policies. Car owners aren't stupid, we can see what they're doing.
BppnfvbanyOnxre@reddit
Some people are really, really dim.
mgorgey@reddit
15 minute cities are a great concept.... However people have rightly noticed governments tend to try to encourage activity by making the thing they don't want you to do more expensive/bothersome/unpleasant rather than making the thing they do want you to do more appealing.
FireWhiskey5000@reddit
From what I understand the main conspiracy theory is that it’s the thin end of the wedge that ends with the government determining where and when you can go out. Preventing you from going out of your 15min area. It seems like a major leap of logic to get to that end point from my perspective.
Kelypsov@reddit
Basically, the idea of 15 minute cities is 'wouldn't it be great if everything you need on a day-to-day basis was available within a 15 minute walk, bike ride or travel on public transport of where you live?' Some really bizarre whackjobs have seen this and somehow come to the conclusion that this will take the form of dividing every town and city up into more or less a series of outdoor prisons which is no more than 15 minutes travel across, and the incumbents of each prison are actually banned from travelling further than that. The internet being what it is, this utterly insane take has been spread far and wide, primarily through social media, and those not too swift of thought and/or lacking any real critical thinking skills at all have taken this as being what everyone means by '15 minute cities', when even the most basic of basic research into the concept shows that is top-tier, premium grade bullshit of the highest order.
afungalmirror@reddit
They have poo for brains
ImpressNice299@reddit
It’s not an argument I’m invested in, but I don’t understand how 15 minute cities are meant to work. If we’re all to have a bakery within 15 minutes of us, will the council allocate a slot? What if the bakery is terrible and we all have to go to the next “block” over? What if nobody wants to open one there at all?
Thevanillafalcon@reddit
It’s a specific right wing conspiracy theory about how’s we’d all be trapped 15 minutes to where we live.
These people are almost fanatical about cars as well, not even in a petrol head way, they may not give a shit about their actual cars but they think any betterment of either public transport or making things more accessible for pedestrians is some how an afront on their freedom as car owners.
As climate change gets worse, we need to stop listening to this people, they need to he told to shut up
Son-Of-Sloth@reddit
The government can't keep a COVID party secret or build a railway line but these nut jobs think they are trying to control our lives by limiting cars and the weather using Ryanair.
Plane-Physics2653@reddit
Charles' utopian city Poundbury is designed as a 10 minute city. I suspect many of the conspiracy theorists are monarchists so we should tell them that.
LellowYeaf@reddit
I’d also suggest the idea is attacked by people who can’t understand the concept. I think 15 minute cities sound amazing in areas that can accommodate that idea. But I have to drive 5 mins just to buy milk, if the idea was applied here I couldn’t teach any amenities. I understand the idea isn’t for rural areas, but I think people incorrectly think it’s going to be applied everywhere, get scared of the idea of not being able to reach a shop / dentist / doctor, and then rail against it as a form of “control”. I know it seems obvious that it isn’t to be applied to rural areas, but maybe that point should be explicitly made to avoid panicking by people who can think critically.
Ok-Discussion-8099@reddit
I don't understand how applying the urban-planning concept of providing more local amenity infrastructure would prevent you reaching any amenities?
LellowYeaf@reddit
I think in practice it would be unchanged. But what I’m saying is I think some people imagine it would mean being confined to an area without any amenities.
It would very unlikely be improved - the UK has hardly any money to invest, so I don’t think our village would get a shop / dentist / doctor etc as part of a 15 minute city initiative
Ok-Discussion-8099@reddit
Why/how would anyone be confined in any way? I don't understand the point you're trying to make.
LellowYeaf@reddit
The key word in my response is what people “imagine” will happen.
So people hear about 15 minute cities, and incorrectly imagine it means they will be restricted to a 15 minute radius.
The conclusion is incorrect. But I don’t think it’s hard to understand how people incorrectly reach that conclusion. Because they are ill informed / lack critical thinking skills / don’t read beyond headlines.
McLeod3577@reddit
iTs aLL abOUt cLosEr AmEnitIEs
GoodGrapeVimtoFiend@reddit (OP)
Can’t see owt wrong with that?
MobiusNaked@reddit
This BBC podcast will answer your question.
MattCDnD@reddit
Stupid poors are stupid.
And they outnumber smart poors.
This is all you need to understand about anything in politics.
GoodGrapeVimtoFiend@reddit (OP)
😢
NepsHasSillyOpinions@reddit
15 minute cities sound amazing to me. Obviously I'm not under the illusion that people would be confined to their designated zones/districts as if we're in some dystopian cyberpunk alternative reality. Real life is dystopian enough as it is. 😂
People would still have cars, but they wouldn't need to use them for every little thing.
Where I live right now the nearest shop is a 20 minute drive away, let alone anything else. Can't do anything without my car, but that's fair enough since I live in a tiny village in the middle of nowhere. The roads are narrow with ditches on either side with no cycle lanes, I never see anyone cycling out here either because it's just too dangerous. Poo to that.
When I lived in Edinburgh I didn't have a car. Didn't need one. Buses were great and most things I needed were within walking distance.
I'm not anti-car, but I'm not pro-car either. I'm all for anything that reduces our need to use cars (especially in built up/urban areas), because why not?
GoodGrapeVimtoFiend@reddit (OP)
Couldn’t agree more!
DEADB33F@reddit
A lot of it is your usual conspiratorial nonsense.
But an actual argument against it is that many of the things that are being done are putting the cart before the horse.
If you want people to be able to walk between local amenities then you need to provide and/or encourage those amenities to be established first ...smaller local GP offices near where people live rather than giant centralised ones, small independent local shops, leisure opportunities inside people's neighbourhoods, etc.
It's fairly easy to argue that blocking off smaller roads and forcing people to take circuitous driving routes to the amenities that do exist but are outside walking distance (or require multiple bus changes) probably isn't the best way to promote the idea of 15-min cities. That's just gonna piss people off.
But yeah, blocking off a few roads can be done in a weekend. The actual solution to providing the amenities and infrastructure that 15 minute cities require is much harder to actually pull off.
NB. I live out in the sticks so don't really have a dog in this fight but I can see why the idea of 15-min cities is a good one. I can also see that the way they're often being implemented leaves a lot to be desired.
Low_Resolve9379@reddit
People are suspicious because we already have 15 minute cities in this country. This isn't America - "car dependency" isn't really an issue here. For the vast majority of people living in British cities, they can already get around conveniently without a car. So when politicians talk about implementing policies to make their already walkable cities into "15 minute cities", they're rightly somewhat suspicious that in practice this means "we're going to make it harder for you to drive places".
ArseWhiskers@reddit
American propaganda spreading like a contagion throughout the anglosphere. Down in their part of the world they have zoning laws keeping their suburbs away from any shops or workplaces and suggestions of making their cities more European are met with people going “so what’s the catch”. The conspiracy really caught on in the US extreme right circles, the sorts who say “London is a muslim no go zone” so it’s no shock the sort of people who hate Sadiq Khan and are looking for justification are more likely to be sucked in.
I live in a 25 minute city - work, the big shop, my GP etc are all within that walking time and it is marvellous.
AnAncientOne@reddit
Yes, more stuff provided locally so you can spend less time on doing the things you need to and more time on the things you want to seems like a bit of a no brainer. Maybe it's the walking v car that kind of thing tends to enrage these types of people.
PhantomLamb@reddit
Right wing media can make up and old nonsense and terrify the righties.
HelloW0rldBye@reddit
Yep interesting isn't it. But it's always the same people, anti Vax, anti face mask, governments waste money, Ukraine is run by a dictator, immigrants etc etc etc.
I think there is a whole side of "news" that a lot of us just don't get to see. All thanks to the great algorithm in the sky.
Fit-Yak2365@reddit
1.Masks dont prevent the spread (proven) 2. Covid jab was a scam (although not all vaxs) 3. All governments do waste money? 4. I don’t agree with this one tbf 5. Mass migration is a problem
15 minute cities sound great, only if they’re not enforced by not being allowed to leave freely whenever you want, as some people claim, weather they’re full of BS idk
Ok-Discussion-8099@reddit
That's the tragic bit. How can you not know? How can you be so wilfully uninformed as to not be able to identify very clear and obvious bullshit?
Garfie489@reddit
Who ever claimed masks prevent spread?
They reduce spread, but nowhere near prevent it.
Ultimately, during a pandemic where spread is out of control and causing serious issues, making people infect 10 people rather than 100 is still an extreme positive.
Same then goes for vaccines. If you think its a scam, you either care not for data - or completely misunderstand what the point of a vaccine is.
Fit-Yak2365@reddit
Which data for the Covid ones? Excess deaths and everything else due to them?
Garfie489@reddit
Data such as the mortality rate within hospitals of those with and without the vaccine.
Whilst deaths can be attributed to ANY medication (even placebo's), it needs to be within the context of the lives saved.
There are numerous medical studies looking into the effect vaccination had on overall mortality rates. They are publically available.
HelloW0rldBye@reddit
At what point was "not being able to leave your zone*part of the 15 mins city was ever talked about at a government level?
I'm not going to argue your other points as they are argued to death all over the internet.
AuRon_The_Grey@reddit
Go back to Facebook.
Any-Move5580@reddit
There is mountains of evidence showing masks reduce transmission. Just another propaganda-believer 🐑
Difficult_Falcon1022@reddit
The backlash was artificially manufactured. Nobody in their right mind would have an issue with it.
The policy is ; let's have essential services and other day to day places within a short distance of people like a village is arranged. Then people won't need to drive out to them.
It makes you wonder if those who are trying to orchestrate opposition through misinformation have a vested interest in keeping living standards as low as possible.
GeekyGamer2022@reddit
Because they're fucking simpletons who believe just about every right wing conspiracy theory going.
This particular one imagines a future where all private vehicles are banned, you are banned from laving your neighbourhood and there are machine gun nests on every street corner to mow down anybody trying to leave your assigned ghetto.
hoyfish@reddit
This is one of the first conspiracy theories that I think…
That actually sounds great, if done well.
sparklingbutthole@reddit
As a landscape architect in training the discourse around this is very very funny to me. 15 minutes cities are not a new idea. Garden cities were based on a similar principle - back in the 1800s. As usual, people with barely a surface level understanding have taken and twisted something potentially really good and useful and made it into something nefarious. Now, I have some thoughts about whether it's actually practicable in reality, but I would say it's a decent thing to aim towards.
whatatwit@reddit
It's bad branding by people who know what they mean without thinking about how to convey the concept to those that don't. I'm not a branding expert but something about rebuilding London villages might have been easier to get across with the explanation that in a village you needed a bank/post office, a few shops, and so on.
uk100@reddit
I think it's the belief that (whether actually implemented or not) they will be used as a reason to implement ways to reduce car use outside that radius. For example a fee every time you leave it, or per mile outside it.
krappa@reddit
This.
Maybe not quite outside that radius, but in general
TheNathanNS@reddit
Car shaggers infuriated at the mere thought of having to walk for 5 minutes instead of sitting in a metal box for a 2 minute drive.
Greg-Normal@reddit
Putting the road restrictions in BEFORE the 15minute infrastructure would be one.
Are you giving up your choice of pub, restaurant, hair salon/barbers, supermarket etc etc and going to the one that the government says you have to use ?
marsman@reddit
Basically this. The restrictions coming in first, either via the blocking of roads, or road charging (cameras, fines etc..) at a point where nothing else actually exists. So you make driving more expensive or longer, but the alternatives, in terms of public transport, working, biking etc.. either come later, or don't seem to come at all. Throw in issues around bottlenecks because of road changes etc.. And people get pissed off.
I mean don't get me wrong, I live in a city, I have a local doctor, dentist, gym, pool, library (now volunteer run...), supermarket, schools etc.. I can (And do) run to work, or bike, in fact it would be more awkward for me to drive etc.. I have good access to local public transport (wider national links are a bit shit, so its cheaper and faster for me to drive to the next big city, but hey) and its great, it is absolutely a good way to live and I wish most people had that. However.. The various people I know who live in or near areas where these sorts of 15 minute schemes have been suggested or sort of started, the impact has generally been negative and there has been little progress in bringing facilities together (and in one case, the plan to put in a GP surgery and dentists has instead resulted in the council simply spreading that cash out to existing ones and scrapping the central one.. Which is suboptimal given they also built 1000+ houses around it..).
AuRon_The_Grey@reddit
They're hearing about it entirely from conspiracy wonks on the Internet. No sane person would object to having amenities within walking distance. Well, maybe Americans?
KILOCHARLIES@reddit
I love the rose tinted view that well all get better local amenities without the cost of being restricted to only the local ones to us.
It never gets implemented like that. It’s all stick with little carrot.
AuRon_The_Grey@reddit
It's hardly rose tinted to not be creating paranoid delusions about it. My view is that it's not likely to happen at all.
bawjaws2000@reddit
There's a certain element of freedom that comes from having your own transport that can't be replicated by other means.
Once cars are phased out (which 15min cities will trigger) and people are unable to transport themselves; then you're basically putting yourself at the mercy of some greedy conglomerates; and you already know how that goes (see trains, water, postal service, utility companies for some recent examples of why this isnt just some wild conspiracy theory).
To me, thats just a fucking massive leap backwards.
I currently rarely drive but when I do drive; it tends to be to places where public transport is either massively inconvenient / expensive or not available at all.
If I want to go climb a hill or visit a loch or some remote Scottish town; then there aren't viable options via public transport.
Uber is completely unreliable nowadays. It was cheap and readily available when it first broke in as an option. But once competition was broken, it became more and more expensive - and now its probably only available at all half the time I want to / try to use it.
Also - physical shops are already dying to ecommerce. What are 15min cities going to do to save things? I already use local shops whenever it is convenient / a viable option and I already walk to work. But sometimes you get sick of going to the same places. I can't just jump in the car and go visit a shop on the other side of the city in this mad utopia where public transport will just magically start working and get you wherever you want to go at a convenient schedule and at a reasonable price.
Right now I can go on a daytrip on a whim at my own schedule. I can turn it into a few days if I dont have work to go to. But people want to take that away? For what? So people can spend most of their lives within 15mins of their front door? Why is that better in any way?
If its all about emissions - why dont we just focus efforts on improving fuel / transportation? If it's all about roads being overloaded with traffic - then why don't we focus efforts on improving public transport. If it was reliable and cost effective; then people wouldnt need to use cars. But they're not. Or we could improve roads so that traffic flows better.
So why are people talking as if the solution to any of these things is just to demonise cars and to take away transportation options? Thats not resolving anything and its setting us back 100 years.
I already have my work on my doorstep and food joints and some small supermarkets on my doorstep. I already use them. Why would I want those to be my only decent options though?
BigBunneh@reddit
Considering the whole reason European cities came about was to reduce the time to travel from one amenity to another, there's absolutely no sense arguing against 15 minutes cities!
madpiano@reddit
It's something that came over from the US, where towns and cities are nothing like the UK. Their suburbs are only housing, there will be no corner shop, post office, hair dresser etc in walking distance. European neighbourhoods have always been "15 minute cities" unless you are very rural.
Of course UK Conspiracy Spreaders wanted to join the party and claim LTNs are to stop us leaving our neighborhood, which is ridiculous.
RedPlasticDog@reddit
“There’s no facilities near me”
Also
“15 minute cities are bad”
marsman@reddit
This sort of makes sense though. If there are no facilities near you, and someone kicks off a 15 minute city plan by making it harder to drive to the facilities that do exist (and the other elements of the plan are not implemented yet, potentially years away..) you'll get objections.
In fact that seems to be a fairly large chunk of the objections, whether from people living in the areas, or business within or on the fringe of them..
ThatBurningDog@reddit
Your understanding of it is correct. Unfortunately, lots of people are either regurgitating incorrect info or are deliberately misinforming others for their own agenda.
The bit everyone gets right is that a '15 minute city' should have all the general amenities one might need day to day within a 15 minute walk / public transport ride away, reducing the need to drive a car.
The conspiracy theorists take it a step further, suggesting that those in such cities would be somehow banned from leaving their town - why would you if you have everything on your doorstep?
This is, of course, utter horse-shite.
That-Surprise@reddit
It won't be "banned" per se but it will be bloody taxed. LTN style restrictions to make driving in particular to be a huge pain, but they'll sell it as being great for health and the environment as everything you could possibly need is 15 mins away.
The reality is it won't be. My parents were promised we could go to a new local primary school when they got their new build house in the 80s. I was 25 by the time it opened and I was the youngest sibling.
The truth is that people would genuinely love it if everything they need is a max 15 min walk away, it would be a huge time saver. They know it won't be done, as it would cost too much money to build all the needed schools, GPs etc. But it will be used as a cover for creating punitive driving restrictions that can generate a healthy cash flow.
CharringtonCross@reddit
I don’t think any pushback was ever about the idea of having more local services per se, it was about the perception that there were some policy ideas that were aimed at encouraging the organic development of certain businesses by limiting or adding cost to people’s ability to access similar services further afield. Stick first and hope carrot comes later. Whether or not those fears were ever well founded or not, that’s what it was about.
dwair@reddit
They make me deeply angry because I live out in the sticks and it's a 20 min drive just to get a pint of milk. There is literally nothing within a 15 min walk of where I live. Just open moorland and some fields. There aren't even any buildings or houses. It's a failed concept dempt up by the urbanite elite.
sjintje@reddit
Lots of unhelpful non-answers, but to summarise the actual reasons. 1. People like cars. 2. People imagine they will be limited to their current shit local services and facilities etc. 3. People think their liberties will be restricted by authoritarian governments.
insomnimax_99@reddit
Because of the way they get implemented.
“15 minute cities” are now seen as being synonymous with “make driving and getting around difficult and do nothing else”, because in practice, that’s how they get implemented. Anti-car schemes are popping up everywhere, but there’s basically zero emphasis on improving local services and infrastructure.
People would be a lot more onboard with it if local services and amenities were provided so that 15 minute+ journeys became unnecessary, leading to people organically making the choice to not drive more than 15 minutes (or walking and using public transport rather than driving), rather than current implementations which revolve around punishing people who don’t adhere to 15 minute city journey planning.
15 minute cities would have been a lot more palatable to the population if the emphasis was on providing local services and improving infrastructure, rather than anti-car schemes.
Without trying to sound too much like a conspiracy theorist - I strongly suspect it’s due to the fact that anti-car schemes generate money, whereas providing services and improving infrastructure costs money (local councils being money grabbing bastards isn’t too much of a conspiracy theory IMO).
WelshBluebird1@reddit
You realise that in a lot of areas reducing the impact on public transport of traffic is the way of improving local infrastructure. If a bus constantly gets stuck in traffic then the way to improve that is to add bus lanes, bus gates or bus priority junctions and lights.
_disasterplan@reddit
You're confusing 15 minute cities with low traffic neighbourhoods. All the things you listed as positives are part of 15 minute cities. Nothing about cars in there; that's a separate (albeit often connected) matter
Gullflyinghigh@reddit
You know how some people are morons? That.
zigunderslash@reddit
you know how some right winger says "they want us to eat bugs" every now and then?
it's the exact same reason. both ideas where "suggested" at the world economic forum, a party that a bunch of rich assholes throw themselves every now and then to congratulate themselves on how powerful and virile they all are. they sit through some presentations, hobnob, presumably smash various powders into their orifices and then go back to being regular wankers.
the presentations are basically filler. to make it seem less like a jolly on the corporate credit card. they listen to new, groundbreaking ideas that no one has any intention of breaking ground with to tell themselves they know all about what cutting edges to be at. it's meaningless. but because conspiracy theorists think this is all somehow something to do with a "new world order", they take everything they say incredibly seriously and assume sinister intent.
they figured that a guy talking about how he was selling larvae protein to mean that they wanted to feed us all bugs, and that "maybe it'd be nice if you could walk to the shop" as "they're building prisons around us" because if they didn't they'd have to live in a world where the rich dickheads who run everything have no bastard idea what they're doing and are just throwing themselves parties with fancy names and that's infinitely scarier than sinister overlords meticulously planning our exploitation.
PersonalityTough6148@reddit
99% invisible have a great podcast episode on this!
https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/605-15-minute-city/
Basically - Jordan Peterson started spreading the myth that it was about hemming people in. Which was total garbage but gained traction. The "creator" received death threats and it was all pretty bananas for a while.
PersonalityTough6148@reddit
They also mentioned that the World Economic Forum did some campaign that used Prince/King Charles 🙄 to introduce the idea which then got everyone talking about Lizards controlling us or something...
And some places called them districts so people thought it would be like the hunger games 😑🤔
seasickwolf@reddit
During lockdown, conspiracy theorists ended up viewing the concept as a plot to make stay at home orders and rules around starting in your local area into some kind of permanent ban on going anywhere, and things spread from there.
It's explained pretty well in this podcast episode/accompanying article from 99 per cent invisible
PersonalityTough6148@reddit
Ahh just posted this episode before I saw this comment! Glad to see another 99pi fan 💚💚
And I'm Roman Mars...
BibbleBeans@reddit
I haven’t really found Brits to be against it but I asked an American why they drove a mile and you’d have thought I’d drop kicked a puppy from the outrage.
Spirited_Praline637@reddit
I think it’s linked to climate scepticism as it will reduce reliance on cars, but also is part of a pattern of increasing discourse amongst western countries which, in my country (UK) at least, is seemingly encouraged by the gutter media.
QuiteFrankE@reddit
People seem to want to believe in conspiracy theories ti make their lives interesting. My neighbour was telling me with all seriousness how she’s heard on Facebook (of course!) that once they bring in 15 minute cities, we won’t be able to leave that zone, money won’t work in other areas and we will be forced to stay there.
My first question was why? It didn’t make any sense. The idea of being able to access everything easier made complete sense, but it’s not as interesting to these people.
BadgerDeluxe-@reddit
The end goal isn't that bad. But the journey sucks. Every proposal to implement these is all stick and no carrot. They all essentially draw a load of boundaries and either stop, limit or charge cars for crossing the boundaries. This means households or businesses who are established in a location can suddenly find life unworkable because they live in one area, go to school in another area and work in yet another area.
Even the goal is quite misguided, right now I can drive 5 minutes drop my kids at school then drive 25 minutes to work, because I've sensibly picked a school in the right direction. The goal is for me to walk 15 minutes to drop the kids off, then walk 15 minutes back home, then drive 30 minutes past the kids school to get to work. Turning a 30 minute journey into a 60 minutes journey.
Really the 15 minute city is only actually good for people without mobility issues and without young children, who rent. because the only way to resolve the travel issues the implementation causes is to move house, which is staggeringly expensive if you own the house.
SecTeff@reddit
The fear is driven by a sense of a loss of control. That we as citizens are watched and also judged by our behaviour through a system of surveillance cameras and automation.
So we will be kept in our 15 min areas and not allowed to travel.
It’s not rational but the seed of it is born from the loss of freedom and paranoia that arises from being watched by systems such as ULEZ, phone tracking or general population surveillance and monitoring.
It is the irrational reaction to living in a surveillance society being expressed in a counter productive conspiratorial manner.
69AssociatedDetail25@reddit
They will imprison us, preventing us from reaching the edge of the flat Earth /j
Ojohnnydee222@reddit
They don't exist - that's what makes me angry!
ohmyblahblah@reddit
15 minute cities sound great. People are idiots
Iamblaine1983@reddit
People with a financial incentive through social media engagement and brain pills deliberately misrepresent the information, and the self styled "free thinkers" eat it up
wintonian1@reddit
Because you can't inconvenience the (selfish) motorist.
Wolf_Cola_91@reddit
Dim witted morons think it's a plan by a shadowy cabal of elites to confine everyone to living within 15 mins of their home.
Rather than being able to walk to a local shop.
shark-with-a-horn@reddit
Councils can't make any improvements that don't directly benefit car owners without getting pushback, it doesn't matter if it would benefit everyone, if they aren't being pandered to they aren't happy
Interesting-Cash6009@reddit
Everything they offer that is ‘shiny and gold’ turns into something brown and smelly.
_Featherstone_@reddit
Because they have no reading comprehension and believe it means you aren't allowed to move any farther than that.
DaiYawn@reddit
My one objection (which I think is reasonable) is that a lot of this stuff is enforced with fines for driving etc. I don't mind that but as with a lot of things in the UK the execution is crap and I expect that the infrastructure for GPs within walking distance etc will be on a promise after these are brought in and never actually come.
connorkenway198@reddit
Frankly, it's their own idiocy. They figure that they'd be kept imprisoned in that city
Martinonfire@reddit
Because it’s a great idea but the implementation has been dreadful, lots of stick and no carrot.
Warm-Marsupial8912@reddit
Because people think they won't be allowed to drive and don't realise that at some point they and/or their loved ones won't be able to drive so having access to the necessities by foot may be a good thing.
exile_10@reddit
Would highly recommend the 'Things fell apart' podcast for how we ended up with all this stuff being talked about so much
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/series/m0011cpr
chrispy108@reddit
There's someone regularly in the local town centre with a load of placards against vaccines, the BBC, 5G, debit cards, and the 15 minute city.
When they came over once to start a conversation I pointed out I walked 15 minutes from house to get here, and the hospital is 15 mins walk too, so we live in a 15 minute city.
Obviously met with complete confusion and no response.
anchoredwunderlust@reddit
A lot of people have confused them with car free cities for one
But I do think the way the various govt of this country have cashed in on things like car taxes or charging to drive certain cars into London etc has made people paranoid yes, but about things that the govt does tend to do. Like nobody has really benefitted from sugar tax shrinkflation and the now 50p plastic bags etc.
I’m in favour of them but I think it’s easy to manipulate
WPorter77@reddit
Because people really are stupid. Thick as mince, easily fooled and want something to hate and get angry about.
Every time ive seen someone passionately debate why a 15 minute city is terrible everything they say is completely wrong.
YunaLessCar@reddit
Because stupid people think that they’re smart enough to ‘figure out’ that there’s some big conspiracy to keep people in specific areas.
DaiYawn@reddit
Two lots of people against it.
1st lot is the type who believes that its about trapping people in the area. Clearly cranks
2nd lot have seen scenes like the one discussed in Oxford that restricts resident car use with a set number of days that you can drive before you as tart incurring charges. This one's a bit more grounded in reality but is still a bit weird.here
dbxp@reddit
The Oxford one is like a congestion charge just with allowances for local residents. My only criticism is that it is incredibly confusing and there's a good chance GPS systems will send people on routes where they'll be fined.
DaiYawn@reddit
They should have just pro-rated the free days for a discounted 365 rate for residents and made it a congestion charge for all vehicles.
nadinecoylespassport@reddit
I did my geography dissertation on Public Transport and Car-Free urban areas . Let's just say people don't want to give up their cars
mitchley@reddit
“Everything is a conspiracy theory when you don’t know how anything works.”
DiscoChikkin@reddit
Because theres nothing more annoying than convenient shops and public services.
Fred776@reddit
I honestly don't know. It has to be people misunderstanding what is meant and getting sucked into batshit conspiracy theories. I've lived in places all my life - not necessarily cities - that have had all the essentials more or less within a 15 minute walk and it's something that I very much appreciate.
martinbean@reddit
Because they read some drivel on social media about how it’s some government plot to “control” people.
Organic-Locksmith-45@reddit
It’s a Facebook thing. People in general are racist and I’ll educated.
Either-Equivalent314@reddit
Literally because they are told it is bad by whoever lunatic they follow on Facebook or X and the people you see waffling about it is exact type of people who you would expect, older gullible individuals with to much time on their hands, the same ones that thing 5g is out to get you and that vaccines are bio weapons
effefille@reddit
15 minute cities is a conspiracy theory. Idiots think that climate change policies will mean everyone is locked down into 15 minute areas. Ie they aren't allowed further than 15 minutes from their house.
In reality, a 15 minute city just means having shops, drs, schools etc a 15 minute walk or cycle from houses.
twins_garage_horns@reddit
It started off as the 'But my caaaaaar' brigade, then they somehow managed to recruit the hardcore nutters to their cause. Cue insanity.
Jimmy_KSJT@reddit
This sounds absolutely marvellous.
So when is the government going to move my workplace and the shops to within 15 minutes walk of my house? Until that happens I am driving to work and Tesco.
i_sesh_better@reddit
Well... yeah. This is just a truism.
CiderDrinker2@reddit
The car and oil lobbies hate, so spread deliberate misinformation about it all being a giant conspiracy by the Global Elite European Zionist Muslim Transfolk to lock people down in their neighbourhoods. It is, of course, nothing of the sort. It's just a principle of planning that makes life more liveable without a car.
One_Pangolin_999@reddit
Conspiracy theory believing twats believe that it means "the people" will be stuck within 15 minutes of their home and not allowed to work, travel, cross borders or something. Remember kids conspiracy theories are stupid and don't hold up to an atom of scrutiny and logic
Jlaw118@reddit
The conspiracy theorists have jumped onto it and have this ideology that 15 minute cities mean being locked down into them and unable to travel anywhere else as you essentially “don’t need to,” and claim that the covid lockdowns were a trial of this etc.
It’s alongside other suggestions of a digital currency and social credit score system, where there’s theories that the government will control your money, won’t let you pay for goods outside of the 15 minute zones and things like this.
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