[The Arctic may be sea ice-free in summer by the 2030s, new study warns | CNN](https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/06/world/arctic-sea-ice-free-climate-change/index.html)
lol sure man, we still have time
Seriously, they’re just salivating over those shipping lanes opening up like any of this is okay and normal for our species since at least the age of agriculture.
Lol or paper straws.
I went and bought a slushy the other day and had to use one of those paper fucking straws with the spoon like scoop on the end......in a plastic cup with a plastic lid
Also we should fly a bit less. Or we could compensate it with climate certificates printed on paper made up from trees we killed. Yeah let's do that instead.
The Oil Industry sells Hopelessness. It means you do nothing.
We're fighting for every .1 degree.
Work to throw out the Global Republicans and the oil industry out of Climate Policy making.
But, it also teaches the FAILURE of Capitalism. Those Negative Externalities sure do have a big cost, the actual destruction of the human race.
I’m considering marking fuel pumps with “tobacco style” warning labels. Some parts of Canada has made this mandatory. But I think this might be a suitable idea for some activism as well.
This kind of doomerism is not helpful. Plays right into Oil Industry propaganda: Nothing to do, we're already screwed, so don't even try, just carry on as before. We might not be able to stop it but we can make it better, we could limit deaths to Millions instead of Billions.
That’s the thing, we can’t do much at this point. There’s over 8 billion people and 99%+ of them aren’t willing to make any substantial changes. If anything, they want to buy more useless crap, take more cross, country vacations, eat more steak, Drive bigger cars. There is no magic technology that can save us. The only thing that could delay the apocalypse is it pretty much everybody got on board and that’s just not going to happen.
Oh, sorry if anyone thought I meant that this was about the personal responsibility of the average citizen. I meant we could limit to millions instead of billions by regulating/eliminating the consumption and pollution of the like 100 Companies responsible for the majority of climate change.
Calling realists doomers is not helping. Had we listened to the “doomers” decades ago, we’d have had a fighting chance, but we didn’t. We called them alarmists and tree huggers and cut them out of the conversation in pursuit of profit. We stuck our fingers in our ears and sang “la la la” as we skipped steadily toward a bleak future.
Now we’re left with mitigating the damage as best we can. I’m not convinced that we haven’t passed the point of no return, but I, and I believe many others in this community, are doing what we can to minimize our environmental impact and advocate for measures that may help us limit what damage we can - degrowth, end to capitalism and consumerism, regenerative agriculture, less energy consumption overall, system change. I would argue that accepting the reality of the situation makes people more likely to do what is necessary. When you truly understand that your life and the lives of people you love are at stake, you’ll try harder to save them - no matter how low the odds.
Well said. It makes me sad to see how many people are optimistic about fixing things, or at least delaying things. When the population keeps growing, people keep consuming more, and maybe one out of 100 people make more than token gestures to fight climate change. They think we’re in a car headed for a cliff not understanding that we already went off the edge. Oh sure it’s gonna take a while to hit the bottom but we’re going to hit the bottom.
Massive 3d printed carbon trap towers at strategic locations. giant carbon eating algae filled blimps. floating cloud makers in the ocean. And probably shit I don't know about and can't think of
We already know what to do, we just can’t bring ourselves to do it. If AI can stop everyone and all our stuff from moving around all the time and force us to give up meat while shutting down all fossil carbon extraction then yeah bring it on I guess…
I see people talking about a mass migration north and it’s not going to work. The states that are expected to remain habitable and functional can’t sustain 340 million people. I live in Vermont and it’s a perfect example because we just got hit by a biblical flood. The flood destroyed home’s, business is Kamala thousands vehicles, and took a few lives. But it also destroyed a bunch of farms that won’t be able to produce much this year. And that’s after a hard freeze on May 17 that wiped out to entire counties of fruit tree, berry, bush, and spring vegetable production. That’s counties not towns. My point is even the places that will be safer will not be safe and it’s doubtful they’ll be able to produce as much food in the future versus today.
Every year we will lose more cropland, and every year places that can still effectively grow. Food will face grader challenges and potentially lower yields. Then there’s the question of what do you do with the millions upon millions of climate refugees? You can’t build homes for hundred plus million people. The overwhelming majority of those people are not going to work the fields, tend to animals. So you have less productive land to grow on, less production, because of bizarre weather, and a nation of mostly useless people to feed
Oh, I wasn’t assuming you thought it was going to work. I was just talking about it in general. It’s like how millions of stupid people plan to bug out to rural areas if things go bad, not understanding that the infrastructure to support them isn’t there and us rural folks aren’t exactly looking forward to setting a table for 50.
You would think that there would be outrage when our skies are dimmed by toxic smoke from forest fires. Or flash floods from cloud bursts dumping 9 in of rain from one storm as it did in Vermont recently. Somalia looks like a scene out of Water World. Signs, signs, everywhere are the warning signs of imminent disaster. Humans have deluded themselves thinking they're in control. L M F A O
Those floods damn near destroyed my state, it’s horrible. Our farms already got their asses kicked by a hard freeze on May 17 and now a whole bunch of farms have been wiped out by the flooding. The floods also devastated areas frequented by tourists, areas that have only started to recover after the pandemic. The average Vermonter does not have a lot of money and these floods are causing economic devastation. I know several people who suffered severe damage to their homes, lost cars, lost animals. Obviously, the ecological impacts are horrific, but the impacts on the average working people here are just cruel.
It's only going to get worse. The time to act was in the 1950s. I grew up in the late
50s into the 60s. We called it 'acid rain'. I remember a science teacher in 70s adamant about finding clean energy. We lost precious time listening to idiots telling the public 'it's a hoax". I just it again yesterday.
The implosion might have, but the crew onboard definitely heard the carbon fibre slowly fault and crack more and more quickly, like a crescendo. Each "hottest day on record" is a fault, all leading to the eventual failing of the hull.
Had a lovely exchange with a couple users on r/environment last night. Talking about how electric vehicles are going to save us. They could not seem to understand they electricity still comes from fossils fuels. Like I had to reiterate that point several times. My lord we are in way over our heads.
Its worse than that. Nevermind the electricity, we don’t have the production capability necessary to build out the amount of cars needed to replace gas cars at scale. There’s also the fact that there isn’t enough raw materials in the ground, even if we did.
Yeah, I have no idea who that is.
https://zeihan.com/evs-not-so-little-dirty-secrets/
Believe it or not, doesn’t matter, I seriously think most of us will be dead in a few years.
Simon Michaux is the chief cheerleader of the "there ain't enough minerals for the wind and solar energy transition" and it's a bunch of strawman attacks and blatant misunderstandings of the renewable energy literature. EV's can be made from fairly abundant materials like LFP batteries, and they're even moving away from rare earth's in the electric motors
Don’t you worry, you’re preaching to the choir here. It’s just simply math at this point. Look at current levels of warming, factor in the global carbon budget (which seems seriously underestimated if you ask me) and then think about overhauling the global car fleet. Just insane this is still part of the conversation.
Climate change has so much momentum that it's like a freight train, there is no way we can stop it and it's just getting faster. I cannot but laugh every time I hear someone mention the goal of 1.5°C.
Have you heard of this? “Precision Fermentation” could feed us all the protein and fats we need from an area the size of Greater London. That's all the bacteria-grown-meat (served up like chicken tenders?), milk, palm oil, etc we could want. It basically replaces cattle and other livestock, letting us return 2 billion hectares to forest. That's (on average) 3 trillion trees - enough to return CO2 to 350ppm and solve climate change! The human race fed, habitats restored, and climate change solved! George Monbiot for 6 minutes - check it out! https://youtu.be/6eaTIe\_TBZA
If we stop polluting right now... All the sulfur in our atmosphere goes away in a few months and raises temperature by almost a full degree, bringing us way past 1.5c. Nice
> Don’t you worry, you’re preaching to the choir here.
Oh, I know. Here I don’t get permabanned for inciting violence when I remind everyone that we’re all doomed, like I’m the one that controls the earth’s climate lmao
What we NEED to do is fundamentally restructure society around walking again. Tear down old car based cities and rebuild new ones with walkable planning in mind. Streetcars and trolleys used to be common in the early 20th century and can make a return for longer distances. But people need to shop and work within walking distance again.
The idea that people 'need' a car is absurd and needs to go away.
Even the Soviets had amazing city plans that they would have implemented if it weren't for Americans ruining everything. Their futuristic cities were fascinating.
ok, but that requires machines to rebuild everything for that, which will also have a huge resource and carbon cost no one is willing to pay. You need to be more pragmatic, because as it stands right now, what you’re asking for is impossible.
H2 internal combustion engines is the future,
same old technology (ICE), slightly better efficiency, no need for wierd rare earth elements AND easy to transport. It is the ultimate no co2 solution.
So much this. I remember when h2 cars were the talk in the late 90’s, then came all of the Hindenburg themed propaganda. Looking back, I realize that propaganda only existed because it was a legitimate threat to the oil industry.
You should investigate metal hydrides. It is a way to store hydrogen in a solid state and is the most flame retardant way to store hydrogen. Sadly it is super expensive.
We don't even have the infrastructure to push out all the power to charge all those EVs and we don't have the copper to upgrade it all. It's all a green mirage.
PRT systems like skyTran would work. They're directly mains powered and use passive maglev rail. The track has no physical contact so it lasts a very long time. No lithium batteries requried.
But sure, that's a huge construction effort. We could easily do it if we didn't have to cope with the capitalist nonsense but of course we do. But just recycle the cars, all of them, and make something useful out of the resources...
Ah, as much as I hate cars as a new urbanist / old peak oiler - EV's ARE still better than oil cars for the climate, even with a dirty grid. Check the papers on this. AND they lend towards national security in an oil crisis as we've got to wean off oil somehow
If car munfacturers really wanted to make efficient electric vehicles (as much as possible for an electric vehicle atleast) they'd be making electric public transportation. Electric busses, that sort of thing.
Or better yet, make cities walkable.
There literally isn’t enough metals specifically copper on planet earth to make a sustainable transition and keep our consumer economy afloat. It’s all a pipe dream. Degrowth or extinction.
Well that's not true. We can get the minerals, it'll just take decades to mine them. But sufficient deposits do exist. And lithium is the biggest bottleneck, because of its use in batteries.
As long as shareholders pay nothing for the Negative Externalities. Where are the Economists. You'd think there'd be a GLOBAL UPRISING in the Economics Profession already.
Yeah, you'd think.
But I mean if there isn't an uprising of lawyers against other lawyers, politicians, judges and SCOTUS dregs that are using the letter of the law to undermine the spirit of the law and making life for average people worse, then there will probably never be any uprising.
There are too many complex social systems (like professions) all tied up with managing minutiae and fighting each others for money and influence.
They're obviously meant to stop the use of fossil fuels in transport, one of the biggest oil sectors, and Carbon Dioxide Producers. If you don't stop that, how are you going to slow down and STOP CARBON BURN?
Wishful thinking?
Or, are you just going to give up now.
Imagine you go skydiving right, you're failing about time to pull your chute open and it fails. Nothing happens. You're still failing and trying to get the parachute.
Now, you can keep trying and trying and trying but you know it will never open, you are doomed. Your fate is locked in.
This is where we are.
Do you continue to struggle and panic as you fall to the ground (knowing you will die?
Or do you give up and at least try to enjoy the last moments of your life the best you can free falling trying to absorb whatever blissfulness you can?
This is where we are my friend, fight it all you want. However, giving up and enjoying what we have left might be the better option.
The wishful thinking is that we have the resources to achieve these feats of the scale of our society. If we where asteroid mining it would be a different issue. But strip mining the earth for lithium and copper which specifically copper there isn’t enough on earth to make this transition…
I mean electric cars are just another way to move around. How you recharge the battery is up to you, and very open to future electric generation innovation that wouldn't be able to scale down into a car.
Plus power plants are more efficient at capturing the energy out of the same amount of fuel than a car engine would. One is designed to be lightweight and repairable, the other is a giant machine dedicated to extracting and converting energy into a useable form for us to use.
Are they the answer to everything? No. Is it disingenuous to write off all EVs and market them as the exact same as a combustion engine for the average person? Yeah kinda
Again my point of how do we overhaul the global car fleet while not expending the remaining global carbon budget? You can’t because it’s mathematically impossible at this point when you look at current warming.
That’s what we are saying, electric cars are an awesome idea, but 2023 is far far too late to be starting the transition. The northern hemisphere just hit 1.5c briefly last week. Co2 emitted today will be causing warming and climate damages for at latest the next 300 years.
Why is there no middle ground between overhauling every single vehicle and leaving EVs? Downvoting and acting like my comment is too stupid to even consider doesn't automatically make you right.
I didn’t down vote you. And I agree, you don’t need to go all the way. However, I just think with the remaining carbon in budget, this is nothing but a waste of time stalling the real systemic change required. But I also believe it’s too late at this point to limit warming below 2c. I just find it a funny talking point when we have a 23 million year record Co2 concentration in the atmosphere causing climate damages.
It sometimes does. Market forces now favor renewables. Solar is cheaper than coal. Literally the cheapest form of energy generation. Market forces alone might take 30 years to phase out coal, so let's hope we find ways to do it a bit quicker.
The bigger issue with electric cars is mining the lithium (and to a lesser extent, nickel) necessary to replace every gas powered vehicle out there with a EV. That'll take decades as well, unfortunately.
EVs are a long term solution but we ideally need a short-term stopgap to minimize damage in the meanwhile. I suspect we won't find one and the number of species and fellow humans we lose as a result will be heartbreaking.
My home's electricity comes from a solar co-op, so my EV is powered by the sun (or sun credits, I guess lol). But all that does is alleviate my own guilt. The world's still fucked.
I have also given up, I decided it’s utterly hopeless. The human condition cannot charge it’s in our dna. I get a lot of comfort from going Vegan from vegetarian 5 years ago. Feel fantastic physically and knowing that no animal will suffer any more fear, pain or suffering ever again on my behalf helps me cope a little with all the gloom.
Not trying to discourage your veganism, props to you in fact.
But I promise you you’re causing (indirect) harm to animals. Just because you’re not eating then doesn’t mean you’re not affecting them.
That is true but a lot of the other ways of causing harm are more difficult to figure out and observe, and veganism is a really simple way to lessen the impact with a clear correlation between the cause and effect.
​
For example, it's possible that I could be paying rent for an apartment in any major city, not knowing that the building is owned by a giant real estate investment firm that is planning on using that money towards building another apartment complex on the local wetlands. Or, all the plastic waste and medication we urinate leeching into the water supply and disrupting fish reproduction. Streetlights and other light pollution that have a serious effect on bird populations. etc
Porsche and I believe Ferrari, have developed an E fuel. That uses water to turn captured carbon into gasoline, it’s carbon neutral as the carbon released was already captured. There’s definitely alternatives that are becoming available.
So let me get this straight. They're taking carbon that was sequestered then released, inputting massive amounts of energy ( carbon capture and then turning into fuel ain't coming from unicorn giggles) into it, to make a fuel to re-release the original carbon and calling it carbon neutral? Sounds totally sustainable Let me guess, the premise being that "in the future" we'll have carbon free electricity to do the capturing and production and we'll now have green liquid fuels to fly around the world and drive alone everywhere?
Every single climate change "solution" that tries to maintain business as usual is like the South Park underwear gnomes. There always some step with a non-existent process to get us to the end.
We have plenty of water. Plenty. Two thirds of the planet is covered in it.
We have a shortage of clean, drinkable water in some places. We have *too much* water in other places.
My gut tells me - and I’m open to being wrong - that this process doesn’t require water that’s fit for human consumption.
I think you are missing my point slightly. Yes, alternatives are coming out/being developed. But when you look at current levels of warming/the global carbon budget/and the current energy systems of earth and brings those concepts together, it appears as if we have stalled progress for too long.
I mean the Co2 emitted today will be causing climate damages for at least the next 300 years. I’ve seen some say 1000. 2023 is just too late in the game to really subvert the major impacts of living in a 1.5-2c warmer world.
Electric vehicles are great and all, but they aren’t going to save us. We could keep driving fossil fuel cars and be doing fine if we could focus on reducing the largest sources of CO2 emissions, corporate production. We’d be way better off if we also figured out a way to make industrial farming have a smaller impact on the environment, including greatly reducing agricultural runoff and water consumption. Advances in electricity infrastructure, electricity generation, and electronics consumption are what’s needed most to reduce corporate CO2 impact. And alternative farming techniques are needed to reduce agricultural environmental impact.
As such, investment into things like solar, wind, hydrogen fuel storage (not compressed hydrogen gas), materials science, hydroponics, aquaculture, etc are likely going to be the things that will ultimately save us. Without those things in place, electric cars are a drop in the bucket. And at this point, it’s not crazy to think that solar geo-engineering is our only chance of survival. Though it very well could lead to our ultimate demise.
The electricity doesn't have to come from fossil fuels though. It does in many cases, but it's not necessary. Too bad we demonized nuclear power so much since that would have probably helped save us like 20-30 years ago.
Electric cars are fossil fuel products that can't be made on scale without fossil fuels. What are the non-fossil fuel plastic alternatives? Wasting food crops and land areas to make some sort of bioplastics? What about the replacement rate of these electric vehicles? Is there no entropy law that limits the circular economy? Can we make all these innovations everywhere in the global economy using a profit oriented, neoliberal mindset to get within ALL the planetary boundaries?!???
So many questions, and response from them is like the sound of a wet fart *port*. Namely; you overuse the word neoliberalism. Who says that capitalism even exists? Or I'm a fan of capitalism and everyone who is against me is an insane Marxist.
Humanity really needed to give communism—actual communism—a shot back in the 30s. If we had, maybe things would be different. But like you said, the endless need to create profit has destroyed any chance we have at making a better, or hell, even *inhabitable* world for the future.
Hell, the sooner the better. I just associate the 30s with the height of communism in America, but I could be wrong. I’m certainly no historian, just someone with a finely-tuned wish things were that weren’t.
It’s actually crazy hey, and these are self proclaimed “greenies”. Like how have you not done the math at this point. All the signs point to collapse, I guess some people really just don’t wanna do the synthesis yet.
Green growth, which has its faith in that the free market will solve the crisis through technological innovation is a co-optation of the sustainability debate.
I had a class last semester where we spoke about the idea of “sustainable development”. Our lecture ended the class by suggesting that maybe listening the the neoliberal idea of “sustainability” isn’t the wisest idea.
Was a very eye opening class.
And this is why some people don’t want kids to go to college and make it harder by the day. Feel so bad for the younger generations the kids and babies of today.
As opposed to the people on this sub, that thought civilization was going to collapse a few weeks before night clubs opened up in 2020. I'd take the predictions of virtually anyone over the people here.
And instead of doing the maths my family comes with ad hominem like "you have bought a t-shirt that was made in Bangladesh for 5 years ago and you are still wearing it".
Then my grandfather said yesterday: "at least people are doing something with the EU environmental law, there is progress". And when I say that it is mainly the degrowth front doing the heavy lifting and it is all the capitalist institutions (institutions that hold most of the capital) that are pushing back he is just ignoring what I say. And people like him are also pleased with just the weakened version of the environmental regulations because "we also need to keep the economy going and people have to keep making money".
Air temperatures in Southern Europe are 60% at the moment. Most MSM presstitute outlets have a picture of love Island contestants exposing their flesh for a little titillation for their puerile consumers.
I mean sure, but cars sell every day; an electric car CAN be powered by wind and solar at any point in the future; a gas car sold today with a 15 year lifespan will ONLY run on fossil fuels for 15+ years.
So EV has the potential for improvement, but it’s whether we can adjust our habit (still need to drive less) and green the grid.
Only in Republican controlled states does electric come from fossil fuels. It's rapidly converting to solar, wind, and battery as they're cheaper. Are Republicans going to force you to buy More Expensive Energy?
Also, those fossil fuels, look what they did to Pennsylvania, polluted the water, and just walked away from a huge collection of drill holes, Never Capped.
Most electric systems burn the fuel to heat up water. The pressurized steam turns a rotor fan which is directly connected the the stator. Inside the stator a magnet is rotated around copper coils. The movement of the magnetic field is caught by the coppers electrons and generates the electricity.
[Tl;dr. Fire->water->steam->fan->magnet->electricity](https://www.mcmasterenergyweek.com/the-power-line/2020/10/13/electricitygeneration)
That’s a real concern a lot of us Northerners have. That in the coming decades we’re going to get flooded with refugees and that a lot of them won’t be asking for help, but will be taking whatever they want by force. Sure I’ve got my guns and my homestead but I’m only one man, there’s not much I can do if/when thousands of hungry city people decide they want my small farm.
Most of the wealthy people in this world are not young. They’re not exactly worried about the state of the world when they check out they had their wealthy enough that they could write out anything short of a full blown apocalypse in relative comfort.
SS. It's too late, we fucked up. There's still time to save a remnant of humanity and perhaps 10% of species, but oblivion is locked in. There are still too many people urging calm when we should be panicking.
Related to collapse because this kind of gaslighting will make things get worse, much quicker. "We still have time" is just climate procrastination.
We've got to watch out for linear thinking. I know I'm prone to it - it's natural. Just as many of us are not good at estimating the risks from long-term growing threats like climate change, many of us are not good at estimating how fast the good trends could roll out. Nothing substantial appears to be happening for a long time - but that's the very nature of exponential growth.
Remember the old example of bacteria in a Petri dish. Assume you know it doubles every minute, and the dish will be full in an hour. When is the dish half full? In 59 minutes! The bacteria has been almost invisible for 50 minutes then in the last 10 minutes goes from a tiny blotch to an eighth, then a quarter, then a half, and suddenly the dish is full!
Most of us have been ignorant of the slow but accumulating breakthroughs in both renewable technology and the ability to scale it. Indeed, until a year ago I was pro-nuclear for at least half the grid because I just couldn't see how renewables could be Overbuilt sufficiently to offset winter and "Dunkelflautes". But renewables are now SO cheap they can be Overbuilt for our needs. Supply lines and investments are kicking in, but all behind the scenes. In my metaphor, that’s the invisible bacteria breeding in the dish - for the last few decades. But now, suddenly we can see the renewables breaking out. It's matured - and it’s about to explode exponentially across the next decade. So many solar factories are being built today that when they are finished in 2025 they will build FOUR TIMES the solar built in 2022! This is 6% of today's electricity built EVERY YEAR! 17 years to the job from solar alone!
[https://xenetwork.org/ets/episodes/episode-184-eroi-of-re/](https://xenetwork.org/ets/episodes/episode-184-eroi-of-re/)
Solar is doubling every 4 years and wind every 4.5 years. It's also a myth that they rely on rare earths, as most brands of renewable energy are moving into more abundant materials. Sodium (sea-salt) batteries are now a thing, and even their catalysts are from abundant materials like "Prussian Blue" (chemically treated iron) or "Hard Carbon" etc. EV's will be HALF of all new cars sold by 2030. Trucking is changing - Tesla have their 40 ton Semi, and Janus Australia even have a 100 ton electric ROAD TRAIN that runs on a giant battery-swap system! [https://youtu.be/9eYLtPSf7PY](https://youtu.be/9eYLtPSf7PY)
Mining prototypes could be heading in that direction soon.
It's all growing SO FAST that the head of the International Energy Agency predicts peak OIL DEMAND by 2026 and declining from there. https://www.iea.org/news/growth-in-global-oil-demand-is-set-to-slow-significantly-by-2028
Experts think peak FOSSIL FUELS will be reached soon, and phased out WELL before 2050!
[http://theconversation.com/theres-a-huge-surge-in-solar-production-under-way-and-australia-could-show-the-world-how-to-use-it-190241](http://theconversation.com/theres-a-huge-surge-in-solar-production-under-way-and-australia-could-show-the-world-how-to-use-it-190241)
Basically, people are going to be shocked at how fast things change across the next 10 years. Elon Musk has pointed out that as we “Electrify Everything” we will halve the amount of TOTAL thermal energy used - as measuring fossil fuels at the point of mining and extraction is a cheat. What counts is the electricity delivered to homes and miles driven in an EV - the work done. The world will be moving from dirty polluting climate-changing fossil fuels to clean abundant renewable energy from super-abundant materials that can be recycled. It's going to clean the air, clean much of our water, save the climate, and topple petro-dictators.
And we haven't even mentioned the changes in food tech that are coming!
It’s just like these fake socialist that infest our British media. The fuckers spend all their time railing against the injustices of a vicious Tory Government but come election time they do a complete 180% and spend every minute of their day slagging off the opposition and ensuring an even more extreme psychotic manifestation of Tory Government gets in yet again. The best propaganda is that that is the least obvious. The propaganda that pretends to be the good guys….
Somebody posted a comment on another forum, saying, "We can't fight homelessness, hunger, or poverty, but we are going to fight climate change?" That really drove home for me just how awesome and amazing our capitalist system really is. The more we have to struggle, the stronger we will become!
In all seriousness, though, it feels like corporations are hijacking potential social movements left and right in order to steer those movements away from the possibility of actual substantive changes to the socio-economic reality we live in. As our species approaches the possibility of life in an underground bunker, these fuckers will still be running commercials pointing the finger at all of us, "don't forget to recycle YOUR plastic, shower together to save water, shut off your lights when not in a room." All stuff we should do, but I don't see the commercials telling BP or other corporations, "Remember to shut off your oil when the gulf is not in use, remember not to destroy America's local economies by placing huge retail stores in towns with 4 or 5k people, etc."
I think at this point, "solving" now means "find a ridiculously perilous way humans can survive despite the planet failing all around them". Things like "block the sun's rays" or "build large underground cities" come to mind. Or maybe just "let everyone duke it out, while we wealthy enjoy our remaining years in our bunkers and private islands".
UNDERWATER cities !!! Why you guys always want to go with underground . Underwater is better from all regards. Nuclear attack , earthquake , invadators , you name it .
We could certainly mitigate the damage and do a fair bit to cushion the blow, but that would require starting with replacing capitalism with a cooperation-based system that didn't even use currency, but rather scientific analysis to arrive at solutions and processes.
So yeah, we're definitely doomed. No way that will happen in time.
This would require an educated government. This would require an ethical government. This would require an entire country to cooperate. This would require an educated electorate. This would require an act of God. Acts of God are uninsurable.
Sorry I did the math, we’re fucked. 🥶
Still every bit helps mitigate the disaster as it's a exponential problem, so doing all you can will make it slightly better and stopping the 100 corporations responsible for 70% of all human emissions goes a long way. But don't terrorism as it can be used to justify inaction
What are they going to do in 20 years when climate change still hasn't destroyed the world, but they still need to trick people into giving them money?
C0llapsen!ks know the clock run-out in the 80s...we're now way past Injury Time.
\*Can't think of a metaphor involving SD Penalty Shoot-out in the near future\*
Look, the truth is, there is still time to fix it. All we gotta do is work for $1/hour, work 4 jobs, sleep never and create as much value for shareholders as possible. And when we all work ourselves to death and the rich have absolutely all the money in the world, the climate change will stop.
You just gotta give up a little bit of your personal comfort in order to stop the climate change. Do it for your kids, who by the way need to work too, because your obese bodies can't fit into the coal mine that well.
Question: should we give it up and enjoy the time we have left (the mantra of r/collapse?) or should we take Obama’s claim, in his interview with Hasan Minhaj, that if we can reduce our increase going forward things won’t be as bad and we should focus on environmental policy with this in mind? Maybe both?
There is not much time left. Killing heatwaves are a thing now.
It is time to give ourself to adaptation (degrowth). Regardless of how well it goes, it's better than panicking (as OP) or accellerating our doom.
If only powerful nations didn't start bombing each other, I think it could work (in the sense of allowing bearable standards of life without billions of deaths).
The bombs were never gone. Every year there is some war somewhere, with the USA and other superpowers involved.
My point was that war is quite resource-demanding. It burns lots of energy, materials and manpower (plus all the destruction) that should be directed to prepare for the new times instead of just trying to steal from the neighbors.
‘Mutually Assured Destruction’
also
‘Nuclear Summer’
Many squares to be checked!
^([Apocalypse Bingo](https://www.reddit.com/r/ApocalypseBingo/comments/10qotoh/apocalypse_bingo_v3/))
Destruction and energy consumption means line goes up and human systems aren’t logical but driven by money and power
That’s to say I agree with your point but only think more war and conflict is coming
I ask myself this constantly, but I almost always fall on the side of keeping my environmental impact low. I'm vegan, don't own a car, have low energy consumption and buy second hand as best I can. Mainly so I can look at my kids and say I tried my best when it all goes to shit.
My wife and I struggle with this. We want kids but haven’t had luck. At this point it almost feels like “why would I do that to someone?” With how the planet is going…
I had my kids before I was aware. I'm sure it happened to a lot of us doomer parents. All I had was the news feeding me hopium that things could be fixed if we all really tried.
So I did. For a very long time. And while I still try to keep my impact low, and try to inform others of what's going on, I know it won't affect collapse, but at least I'll carry way less guilt as we trudge through the years.
Same here. About twenty years ago I had to make a decision about having kids. I really didn't expect we'd make things worse, let alone do nothing at all.
> let alone do nothing at all about Climate Change.
Plenty of people did stuff. Under capitalism, that just meant there was more oil for those who didn't.
Our kids weren't really planned per se. And definitely before I embraced the collapse. I've known things were bad for years though. So, now I'm just doing what I can to make sure that there's something for them to fall back to.
I was still buying into the hopuim up until 2020
Once I saw how badly we handled a glaringly in your face threat like a pandemic, I knew the "frogs in boiling pot" aspect of climate extinction was truly inevitable and have had the absolute worst survivors guilt for having kids ever since
Yeah that was a huge turning point for A LOT of people. People had to make the collapse support sub because all the posts of people who finally had it click that we're not stopping climate change from destroying us.
This was the precise moment (well, stretched-out train wreck of a moment) I knew we were doomed. It’s like we’re being run by those people in 12 Monkeys. Idiots that shouldn’t be in the position they are.
I made sure not to have kids but I’m vegan and also and limit my consumption as much as I can knowing it’s futile. Humanity I feel deserves it’s fate. All the other beautiful complex and intelligent life on this planet didn’t. My heart bleeds for them.
This. I’ve been awake on climate impacts since Al Gore. Was too young for James Hansen, but now understand Jimmy Carter took his testimony seriously and, as a nuclear engineer, also understood the impacts of what the scientists were saying. After all, scientists knew in mid 1800s that burning coal would heat our atmosphere.
However, now that the consequences are piling up, I find my emotions get stuck on rage, helplessness, & sorrow at how much we have fucked other species. I live in Central Illinois and this used to be insect heaven during the summers. Last few summers, insects have rapidly declined. It’s eerie and heartbreaking. The consequences of this, alone, are beyond repair.
What are we gonna do? Politicians and corporations control what happens with climate and they're deep in each other's pockets. Nothing's gonna change. I'm enjoying the time I have left by preparing for collapse and spending time with my family.
I struggle with this daily. Wrong or right, I think my mind frequently comes to “I, as one individual, likely can’t produce much significant change, so I lean toward just enjoying”. I think that was the message behind Dont Look Up. The top scientists in their field couldn’t convince the populace that this imminent threat needs attention, and the movie ends with them just enjoying their last time left together, pretending nothing is wrong.
I’ll conserve / recycle / vote / support what where and who I can that would help, but I’m not in a position in my life where I could risk being jailed for obstructive protests (I know, it’s fucking wild we have to be in this position). So I’m just gonna make each day as good as I can for me and my kids and my family and friends. I’ll try to prepare some, but like the meteor headed toward earth, there’s not much use in preparing. Enjoy the nice time you have left.
The problem, or rather the non-solution, with reducing one’s footprint is that it only leaves more space for someone else to use that space/resource/energy.
Unless we’re talking locking away resources forever, or at least dramatically reducing the rate of their use **globally**, then it’s as a single flame of a raging wild fire saving the forest.
Do less so you yourself feel less guilty, but realize unless it’s impossible for the metaphorical flames to reach the metaphorical trees, they will burn, with or without you.
Furthermore, it seems to me, we already set off a chain reaction that will functionally wipe out humanity as we know it. Maybe 6 or 7 of us survive in some mountains somewhere, but the era of the fire apes will be over. That’s locked in. Bye bye.
Everything we do now, going forward, is just gravy. Maybe a few million years fewer or more before earth’s system calm down, maybe a few billion tons more or fewer plastics in the dead oceans.
Mind the meaning you can, while you can. It’s out of anyone’s control now.
We should try anyways but be realistic in our expectations about the outcomes moving forward. Giving up is entirely useless regardless of how dire and, considering that we're equally able to be misinterpreting data, exaggerating possibilities, or are just lacking critical information (as humans, not us in the sub), it's worth at least making some effort for change and improvement. At least, if the ship sinks, we know we did our best.
To be clear, I'm not trying to push hopium. I personally think we're fucked. Still, if I can apply effort somewhere, I do it anyways because who knows. Perhaps we're not entirely, completely screwed yet but will be if we continue to take no action. It's dubious if those in power will, obviously.
I don’t see a problem with doing both. Unfortunately, many of the public refuse to believe collapse is here, much less coming. So many people just go about their business, full-speed ahead, damn the torpedoes!
I'm so glad I found this group. I feel like a douche because at this point, I'm just exhausted. I've been bitching for decades about environmentalism. Now, NOW the masses are panicking. And somehow, I'm the AH because I'm not falling for the "it can still be rainbows and sunshine" routine. Thank you to all of you who make me feel less alone.
Give it a year. Then we'll see the real panic setting in. I'm in the build your supplies and learn to be self-sufficient mode. At least we're ahead of the curve in here.
Me too. I bought a few acres last year, moving in next month to finally get started. I still feel behind the curve but at least I’m doing something I guess. Cheers to the end of the world, friend. “Our” world at least.
The corporate overlords want you to think we’ve run out of time so that they don’t have to change their ways. There’s still time for radical change. Don’t be a bitch a give up.
Regardless, they are the biggest contributors to the climate crisis.
And blaming individuals for buying things they need and those who vote is ignoring the need for massive cooperation of people the world has never seen before.
Show me any government action that can bring down compamies and change things faster than customer spending.
Sears, Kmart, Montgomery Wards leaders of retail industry brought down in just a couple short years, not by Amazon, but by individuals changing their spending to Amazon.
Walmart didn't wipe out small town retail businesses. Again, it was customers switching their preferences.
All group actions start as individual actions. Your drinking the corporate Kool aid saying individuals don't matter, the corporations you complain about, are more than happy to let you scapegoat them as long as you keep buying thier crap.
We haven't... the only issue is profit motive.... if we juat do it to do it... we should and would be fine... but everyone is concerned about thwir return on investment.... how about the survival of the fucken species... a normal life for your grandchildren.... healthy rewilding and regeneration of ecosystems??? For fucks sake.
60 years ago some of the best engineers in the world worked for Shell. They thoroughly documented the chronic risks of burning fossil fuels and climate impacts.
I mean, this is harmful rhetoric. It might be too late and it might be bad but we can still transition to Greene energy and stop flying and stop factory farming cows. It’s not like we’ve tried everything.
economic incentive will always be more powerful than political will
investment will inevitably prioritize green energy, just for the simple fact that fossil fuels are a finite resource that will run out eventually, and that its more expensive to find new fuel deposits
we're never going to flying or farming. instead we'll get more efficient with our fuel usage, waste reduction and energy storage
using the remaining fuel for production of renewable energy infrastructure instead of bringing it directly. you can consider it a form of carbon capture.
> humans will figure out how to run planes on cow farts before they give up either.
Cow farts are methane, which is natural gas. I could see cow farts becoming a power source as fucked up as that is.
There is ZERO human need to fly. “I need to visit my kids” is not valid if you’re contributing to their early demise. How did the world go on running during Covid lockdown? It did JUST FINE. Save the emissions for food production and delivery to markets. That’s IT. Done.
its not a matter of need. if people have the means to do something they will do it. it took a deadly pandemic to stop people from flying. you practically need to put a gun to their head before they give things that make them comfortable
I’m don’t understand this “self fully prophecy” rhetoric. I’ve personally got much more fight in me after accepting the hopelessness of the situation. It’s made me angry, I can use that emotion for real action now.
Politics IS part of it though. While the science is settled, the political bickering continues while we burn. I forget you said it…’we have the information, we have the knowledge, the science is settled; what we lack is the political will to change anything’.
At this point, can we stop climate change? No
Can we do a lot more to manage and slow it's impacts to minimize unnecessary suffering? Absolutely.
Is that likely to happen? Probably not.
That depends on what you mean by "solve climate change." If it means to prevent any warming at all, well, yeah, absolutely it's too late for that. If it means prevent the worst case climate scenario, which is basically human extinction, it's definitely not too late. If it means limit warming to 1.5 C above preindustrial levels, it's probably too late, unless something really drastic were to happen very, very soon.
There is no solution. There will be a lot of damage. Will it be so bad that mankind and most complex enough life on the planet will be extinct? We might have still the opportunity to change that outcome.
In any case, we still keep accelerating (not slowing down, not keeping speed, but fully accelerating) towards doom. And that is the main factor to decide that there is no hope.
I'm gonna start mining Carbon Credit Crypto Coins! If I run my A/C hard enough, I can have a dozen rigs mining coins simultaneously. I'm doing my part!
The following submission statement was provided by /u/Bellybutton_fluffjar:
---
SS. It's too late, we fucked up. There's still time to save a remnant of humanity and perhaps 10% of species, but oblivion is locked in. There are still too many people urging calm when we should be panicking.
Related to collapse because this kind of gaslighting will make things get worse, much quicker. "We still have time" is just climate procrastination.
---
Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/14z8fdt/sorry_gaslight_gary_you_have_no_power_here/jrwk7cl/
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