Practice ILS legality

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Reputation_Many@reddit

Do not wear a view limiting device without a safety pilot. You should know, even with your instrument rating you are still responsible for your own separation and visual conditions.

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HuthS0lo@reddit

Considering that every commercial flight is on an instrument flight plan; most of which are not in IMC, you're good bud.

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And it doesn't \*have\* to be a practice ILS -- it can be a real ILS in VMC if you're instrument rated and they give you an instrument clearance for (all or that portion of) the flight. ATC will probably \*want\* it to be practice -- it's kind of a headache to do all of the ATC separation stuff if they don't have to. But it does make some minor differences -- like whether you need to call to close your IFR flight plan at a non-towered field -- so it's good to be clear on which one it is (practice ILS on a VFR flight, or unnecessary but real ILS clearance on an IFR flight). Either way, of course, you have to watch where you're going outside, and can't log it for proficiency.

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tommarca@reddit

Wait. You can’t log an ILS approach if you aren’t in IMC? Even if you’re instrument rated? I haven’t flown in the US, so I wouldn’t know how it works over there, but it doesn’t seem right

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Goop290@reddit

Pur rule CFR 14 part 61.51(g) we can only if we are imc or under stimulated instrument. But to under simulated instrument in VMC we need a safety pilot rated for the airplane with atleast a private pilots certificate. (Someone to look for traffic.)

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mcmanigle@reddit

Exactly this. If you have some personal need to know how many instrument approaches you’ve done in your life or something, sure, you can keep a log of it. But it only counts for currency if you’re in real or simulated IMC.

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tommarca@reddit

Can it happen for an airline pilot to lose their IR currency because they haven’t flown an approach under IMC for some time? I know it is a longshot, but maybe a long haul relief pilot that the only times they do a flying trip is under VMC.

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mcmanigle@reddit

No, part 121 (airlines) and 135 (commuter and on-demand charter) follow special rules. Their exemptions are laid out in 14 CFR 61.57(e), but my understanding is that as long as they are in good standing with their company training programs, those pilots don't have to worry about the finer points of currency.

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tommarca@reddit

Thank you! I’ll take a look

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fly123123123@reddit

It does seem right to me. Why should you be able to log an approach if you can see the runway the entire time? You aren’t gaining practical experience / proficiency in flying in instrument conditions.

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alexthe5th@reddit

> ATC will probably *want* it to be practice That really depends on the airspace you're operating in. Seattle TRACON, for example, prefers that everyone files IFR, even for training flights. I did my entire instrument rating here (and checkride) without flying a single VFR practice approach.

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Mid_Atlantic_Lad@reddit

Oh Seattle, never change. I loved hearing about XC flights from my old school that would go up there and come back with the wildest interactions.

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vismaypikachu@reddit

Do tell of these interactions.

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storyinmemo@reddit

Certainly varies by region. NorCal provides IFR separation with VFR practice approaches anyway so you don't have to file, especially because many of those approaches would be VFR / safety pilot capable only: https://notams.aim.faa.gov/lta/main/viewlta?lookupid=3283031797142656530

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apprentibidouille@reddit

Huh that's interesting, I'm wondering why we have this exception.

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BeginningTotal7378@reddit

\> if you're instrument rated AND current

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_toodamnparanoid_@reddit

I'll almost always request an RNAV or ILS the first time I fly into an unfamiliar airport, even VMC conditions. It's just simpler and doesn't (usually) take that much extra time.

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WhiteoutDota@reddit

They give you the same IFR separation on a practice approach as a real one iirc

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Ok_Truck_5092@reddit (OP)

Thank you

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kdbleeep@reddit

It's legal even if you aren't instrument rated.

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Rexrollo150@reddit

As long as you’re not picking up a clearance, yeah.

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randombrain@reddit

There are multiple kinds of clearances. ATC can say "cleared ILS runway 69 approach" even to a VFR aircraft and the aircraft is still VFR. I don't think it would be illegal for a non-IR pilot to accept that clearance.

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fly123123123@reddit

I’ve only heard this phraseology when the controller was making a mistake lol. Gently replied “practice approach approved, maintain VFR.”

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Rexrollo150@reddit

I’ve never heard “cleared for XYZ approach” while doing practice approaches under VFR. I’ve always heard “practice approach approved”.

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PARisboring@reddit

As an approach controller, if you ask for a VFR practice approach own nav, I'll say "practice approach approved, no separation service provided". If you ask for vectors for a practice approach or otherwise indicate you want us to treat you like you're IFR for practice, I'll initially tell you to "maintain VFR" and then treat you just like an IFR aircraft.

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randombrain@reddit

Do what your career can handle but FYI [this interpretation exists:](https://pointsixtyfive.com/xenforo/wiki/interpretation_12/) > This provision does not permit operational personnel, in any instance, to conduct VFR practice approach operations at any airport listed in the LTA without providing standard separation. I guess it depends how you define the difference between you "conducting" a practice approach vs not... whether the pilot says "own nav" might make a difference in that or it might not.

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PARisboring@reddit

As an approach controller, if you ask for a VFR practice approach own nav, I'll say "practice approach approved, no separation service provided". If you ask for vectors for a practice approach or otherwise indicate you want us to treat you like you're IFR for practice, I'll initially tell you to "maintain VFR" and then treat you just like an IFR aircraft.

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EmergencyTime2859@reddit

At my facility we treat every approach like they’re IFR whether you’re VFR or not. I’ve never once said “practice approach approved no separation services provided”

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Rexrollo150@reddit

Ok thanks for the info, that makes sense. I hear that phrase every time. Guess it’s different in different places. What sort of facility do you work at?

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EmergencyTime2859@reddit

Tower and approach

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DanThePilot_Man@reddit

Are you talking to tower or approach?

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Rexrollo150@reddit

Seattle Center, I fly in Central Oregon.

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randombrain@reddit

Center will almost never ever ever provide IFR separation to a VFR approach. Maybe two or three airports in the entire NAS. Approach, however, *must* provide that service at the facility's primary airport and must also provide the service at any satellite airports where it's feasible for them to do so. Look up the NOTAMs and you'll see a Letter to Airmen specifying the airports where VFRs get IFR separation on practice approaches.

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Purgent@reddit

I did practice approaches all the time in my own airplane during instrument training at a variety of airports with approach facilities. The regular phraseology never contains anything about it being a practice approach. “Cleared ILS 22 approach. On completion of the approach, fly runway heading, maintain VFR at or above 3000.” Following this, get switched to Tower and get clearance for the option.

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storyinmemo@reddit

NorCal will clear a VFR aircraft for a practice approach and at that time they'll also be providing IFR separation: https://notams.aim.faa.gov/lta/main/viewlta?lookupid=3283031797142656530 Definitely varies by where you are in the country.

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randombrain@reddit

Well it happens every day at airports all across the country, so maybe you'll hear it if you fly somewhere you usually don't.

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Ok_Battle121@reddit

"VFR doing practice approaches, using the ILS XX, RNAV YY, VOR ZZ circle to land Runway 69."

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planetrainguy@reddit

I’m debating getting my IR and I’m totally confused as to how you’re supposed to stay proficient once you have it. Is this post saying I can’t just go do an ILS approach without a safety pilot if I’m bored and want to go shoot approaches to maintain currency?

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banditoitaliano@reddit

Correct, to maintain currency you need to either fly those 6 approaches in actual IMC (and it needs to be IMC until the FAF), or use the foggles/hood w/ a safety pilot. Personally I like to stay proficient by flying approaches in actual IMC, but I've also shot a few with a CFII at night, and done some on an AATD when needed.

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planetrainguy@reddit

So theoretically I could do all 6 on a sim? That seems like an affordable way to stay current

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ThatsSomeIsh@reddit

Yes, that is correct. That’s definitely the cheapest way to do it. But, if you only ever practice in a sim, do you want your first time in actual IMC in the airplane likely dealing with a very busy ATC?

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planetrainguy@reddit

Well I wouldn’t just default to that but if I get my IR I probably couldn’t guarantee 6 days of actual IMC lined up with my free time, but it’s nice to have a backup option. Also I’d definitely get actual IMC time before relying on sim.

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wellshesaginger@reddit

Yes, it is legal. Correct, you can fly the practice approach, but you cannot log it.

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OddContext9585@reddit

Yeah just not for currency or logging purposes

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Cantyoudobetter@reddit

I try to fly approaches almost every landing. Not only legal, but great for proficiency.

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ThatsSomeIsh@reddit

Legal as in doesn’t violate a FAR but not legal to log for currency unless with safety pilot or actual IMC past the FAF (as many others have mentioned). That being said, I do the same. Every time I fly, I try to make my last landing a practice approach. The proficiency practice is priceless, IMO

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akav8r@reddit

> Can I fly a practice ILS (after getting approval and vectors from approach) Guess what... you usually don't even need approval or vectors from approach.

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ThatsSomeIsh@reddit

I have always heard/assumed that approach wanted to be talking to you if you are shooting a practice approach. It might not be required but it seems like the “right” thing to do

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bd_whitt@reddit

You could just ask for the actual approach. It would be a visual backed up by the ILS essentially. It’s what we do at the airlines/135 or should. We don’t log it but it keeps us honest.

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mtr75@reddit

Sure.

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RebelLord@reddit

I do this when flying VFR at night, especially at my airport with inop papi and where the runway is the only thing I can see and there are trees at the approach end I can’t see.

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saml01@reddit

Yes but you should request ATC to "Track ILS XX Approach". They will approve and state maintain vfr or deny. This is important because the ILS could keep you higher than TPA with other planes in the pattern.

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randombrain@reddit

If the aircraft you're going into is one of the ones where ATC provides separation services to practice approaches, saying you want to "track the approach" might be confusing to me. Do you want services or not?

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saml01@reddit

I have never heard of an airport provide separation to practice approaches. If i am asking for a practice approach then im also expecting vectors or whatever guidance to get onto the procedure. But to keep it simple, if im VFR on the extended centerline and all i want to do is land but follow the ils down i ask to track the approach.

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randombrain@reddit

Well, it's a thing, even if you haven't heard of it. [7110.65 4–8–11**a**2](https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/atc_html/chap4_section_8.html#l8I294JACK), [7210.3 6–4–4](https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/foa_html/chap6_section_4.html#$paragraph6-4-4), and [7210.3 10–4–5](https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/foa_html/chap10_section_4.html#$paragraph10-4-5) are what we use for guidance. Be aware that the terminology you're using could be confusing to ATC, or at least not fully clear.

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saml01@reddit

Im reading and this says IFR aircraft are provided separation but VFR are only provided “Where required”. So its not a default.

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AntwonBenz@reddit

My TRACON provides IFR separation when I request practice approaches.

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CaptMcMooney@reddit

yes

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IllustriousAirBender@reddit

“I am a private pilot with an instrument rating.” Are you sure?

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Ok_Truck_5092@reddit (OP)

I wanted feedback regarding the legality of flying an approach during VMC without a safety pilot. I don’t have any experience flying instrument approaches outside of training as I’ve just passed my checkride. I’ve received ample feedback. But thanks for feeling the need to contribute with a dickhead comment.

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MeatServo1@reddit

Just as a point of clarification, if you’re on a real IFR clearance doing a real approach, your attention cannot be solely outside because you’ll have to follow the needles to stay established. If you’re on an IFR plan and go full scale deflection, you legally must go missed, and if it’s really bad, you open yourself up to a pilot deviation. That’s why you do **practice** approaches because they’re not IFR and there’s no requirement to meet IFR tolerances. That said, if you’re in VMC, regardless of VFR or IFR, you **must** look outside to see and avoid. So, if you’re in VMC, I highly recommend you do a practice approach because you only have so much attention to spend, and it’s unlikely you can do a thorough traffic scan while also doing a thorough instrument scan, especially as you’re descending toward terrain, obstacles, and an airport.

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lisper@reddit

> you legally must go missed Cancelling IFR is also an option if it's VMC.

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Ok_Truck_5092@reddit (OP)

I’ll definitely make it known it’s a practice approach. Thank you for the feedback. This was my main concern, I don’t want to worry ATC. I won’t be on an IFR flight plan.

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MeatServo1@reddit

If you really want to show your buddy a good time, do a PAR or ASR approach. That’ll feel like magic to them.

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Ok_Truck_5092@reddit (OP)

Unfortunately I don’t think there are any around me but that’s on my bucket list

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TheIronPilot@reddit

Yes, and like you said don’t log it.

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Sticksick@reddit

Definitely legal, and often a good idea. Just really maintain VFR, cause you’re getting no separation services. I’ve done it when I’m flying into a new airport, most recently at PWM early evening, which is nestled pretty well into the city, and the runway lights on the smaller runway are hard to pick out after dusk.

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cazzipropri@reddit

Perfectly legal. It just doesn't for currency.

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mtconnol@reddit

Legal but you have to pay a lot of attention to the world outside; it is very easy to get fixated in the cockpit doing this. Also, straight in approaches in VFR conditions make you a bit of a ‘bad citizen’ in the traffic pattern; be courteous and extremely careful. You don’t have the right of way over traffic in the pattern.

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Spark_Ignition_6@reddit

>straight in approaches in VFR conditions make you a bit of a ‘bad citizen’ in the traffic pattern; Only at a NTA. With a tower, do whatever as long as they clear it.

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mtconnol@reddit

Yep, I should’ve specified that.

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Ok_Truck_5092@reddit (OP)

Yep I’ll be looking outside. I’m planning on doing it at a towered airport used to student approaches. Don’t want to fit myself in at a busy untowered field

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mtconnol@reddit

Sounds good. Yes, I should’ve specified untowered airports for the straight in issue.

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timfountain4444@reddit

Yes, as others have said, it doesn’t count but I often tune and fly the ILS in VMC just for practice… obviously this only works for straight in approaches.

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bhalter80@reddit

I regularly track the ILs or RNAV to the runway I'm flying in VMC if I'm unfamiliar or at night

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182RG@reddit

Absolutely you can. It’s not loggable, but it’s perfectly legal.

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aeromonkee@reddit

There is a distinction between currency (a legal requirement) and proficiency (a judgement call), right? You can remain proficient at the procedures and skills of flying approaches while doing them in VMC, but unless you have a safety pilot and a view-limiting device you can’t use them toward legal currency. Since I got my IR a bit over two months ago, I have shot multiple approaches by myself in VMC. Haven’t had a chance to log anything in actual yet because my plane doesn’t like being encased in ice. I did manage to get .02 actual last night while flying under/through a layer over water, but no loggable approaches.

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Hiddencamper@reddit

Others have answered it. You can’t be loggable but you can do it. I would fly ILS in VMC because it helped me see what a 1 dot deviation looked like for example. When I started to tie the indication to actual distance it made them easier to fly.

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AwkwardIndividual587@reddit

It's VFR. You can do literally whatever you want within the regs so long as you have visual separation and cloud clearance. A runway's ILS isn't just reserved for IFR rated pilots on an IFR flight plan. You don't even need to talk to ATC. Just tune it in and fly it in like it were any other VFR approach. No big deal.

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Classic_Ad_9985@reddit

I was flying last night working on towered landings for a 141 lesson and got extended almost out of the Charlie in downwind before I got my base called. I put in the localizer to help me get on final. You’re chillin

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Phillimac16@reddit

I shot a localizer approach in PPL with an instructor, it was pretty fun.

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Icy-Bar-9712@reddit

After arguing with my PPL DPE about what tower wanted me to do with my base leg (I was right) he dialed up the ILS in and made, well "made" me fly the needles in. I did a couple rides with that guy. Absolutely loved flying with him.

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phlflyguy@reddit

You can do it all day long in VFR without foggles. It will be a great demonstration of ATC, IFR procedures, etc. to a non pilot, too!

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Ok_Truck_5092@reddit (OP)

Yep he’s interested in getting his Private

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rFlyingTower@reddit

This is a copy of the original post body for posterity: --- Weird question. Is this legal? I am a private pilot with an instrument rating. Can I fly a practice ILS (after getting approval and vectors from approach) if I do not have a safety pilot? I would be in VMC, NOT wearing a view-limiting device, just tuning in to the localizer so the needles come alive. My attention would be focused outside. I would not log the approach or use it as proficiency. My friend is interested in ATC procedures and wants to see first hand how an instrument approach works. --- Please downvote this comment until it collapses. --- I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. If you have any questions, please [contact the mods of this subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/flying).

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