BREAKING: Putin ‘ready’ for ceasefire but demands ‘guarantees’ depriving Ukraine of aid
Posted by 1DarkStarryNight@reddit | anime_titties | View on Reddit | 522 comments
Haeckelcs@reddit
Why doesn't Putin just let Ukraine train more men and get more military aid during the ceasefire? Is he stupid?
Russia kicked Ukraine out of Sudza today. There was below zero chance to accept any peace for Ukraine to recuperate. Ukraine have lost the only bargaining chip they had.
Mundane_Emu8921@reddit
It was never a bargaining chip to begin with.
1,000 km2 of some rural backwater and a town with 5,000 people?
They aren’t going to trade anything for that.
Eexoduis@reddit
No, just pour thousands of troops and equipment into it for 8 long months.
Comrade… you’re getting your propaganda lines mixed up. Careful, comrade. Keep making silly mistakes and you’re getting sent to the meat waves! Hope you saved up enough rubles to buy your own kit!
Mundane_Emu8921@reddit
Dude. In order for anything to be a bargaining chip, it has to be important to both sides.
Now, we all know you are in cope-mode since your “heroes” in this story were pushed out of Kursk and were stonewalled at Belgorod.
The truth is that Russia didn’t pour tons of equipment and thousands of soldiers into Kursk.
They never relocated any units.
That is why Russia is outside Pokrovsk and not Avdiivka right now.
That is how that happened.
Russia isn’t going to trade any land in some rural backwater just because you want them to.
And they didn’t. So look at that.
Eexoduis@reddit
Again, comrade, you’re getting confused.
Your assertion: 1. Kursk is not important to Russia (or less important to Russia than is stealing Ukrainian lands and raping/murdering/conscripting civilians
Except Russia did relocate units from Kharkiv, Kherson, Zaporizhzhia, and Luhansk, according to the ISW.
Not only that, they begged their ally for slaves to throw into meat waves, receiving thousands of fresh bodies from North Korea for that purpose.
These are not the actions of a state that does not care. Yes, the ork commanders and Putin probably do care about stealing Ukrainian land more than they do the lives and wellbeing of Russian citizens (we’ve seen this time and again - after all, Putin literally sacrificed hundreds of thousands of Russian peasants just for a sliver of Ukraine), but they do care about Kursk and should.
It indicates the surprising limitations of Russian military capabilities; three years into a war with their tiny next door neighbor and large swathes of their border and interior are defenseless. They needed North Korea’s personnel help and 8 months to oust Ukraine from Kursk. I think Russia sacrificed much of their projected image of strength over this move.
yungsmerf@reddit
Russians have started using the same arguments as Ukrainians for opposing a ceasefire, we've come full circle lads.
Haeckelcs@reddit
Putin has been clear for more than a year now what are for him acceptable terms.
Zelensky is trying really hard to get something with zero leverage.
yungsmerf@reddit
Well, he has to, that's his job. Unlike for Russia, this war wouldn't end for Ukraine if they threw down their weapons.
This whole thing became pointless once the Kyiv operation failed, not like they've achieved anything worth mentioning after the initial push in 2022. Putin has just been killing Russians pointlessly for 3 years now, one would think he's had his fill of imperialism by now and would be willing to look beyond his ego and delusions of grandeur.
Haeckelcs@reddit
He has gained control over minerals in the whole of Eastern Ukraine.
Even if the war ended right now, he is at a massive gain.
yungsmerf@reddit
Even more reason to end the nonsense, no? Ukraine maintained its sovereignty and hopefully rid itself of Russian interference, and the world's richest man paves his way with the corpses of his less fortunate countrymen to even more wealth. Should be enough by now.
Haeckelcs@reddit
Zelensky doesn't want to cede territory.
That's kinda why it's still going on.
koogam@reddit
How naive of you to think that this is why the war is still going on. It's cause russia won't stop if it is winning. It doesn't want peace, it wants to win more than what they have to compensate their failure to take control of the hole country
Mundane_Emu8921@reddit
Yeah and the important thing isn’t to secure peace and thus save lives, it’s to blame Russia.
koogam@reddit
Why don't you say that to imperialist putin?
Mundane_Emu8921@reddit
Yeah. That will stop this. Let’s tell him together! Maybe then some magic will happen.
Or hey! Maybe you film me telling him and we post it on TikTok, that will embarrass him so much he will give up!!
koogam@reddit
You're embarrassing yourself
Mundane_Emu8921@reddit
I’m not the one who is saying “well if the Russians would just leave” three years into a massive and bloody war.
WannaAskQuestions@reddit
This is like the pot calling the kettle black.
koogam@reddit
What's your point then? Make your argument
ZhouDa@reddit
Those minerals are worth diddly-squat when they sit within artillery range of Ukraine, and for that matter Russia can't even protect their economic infrastructure from drone strikes much less occupied territory. Even if somehow Russia did get a peace treaty out of this while holding that territory, would those minerals be worth more than the half a trillion or so Russia spent on the war already? The 850K+ casualties plus 900K+ Russians who fled a draft? The depleted stockpiles, the bombed oil refineries and wells and manufacturing plants?
No I don't think there is any reasonable conclusion to this war that would be a net gain for Russia just on their losses right now, and those losses are only going to continue to accumulate the longer the war goes on.
Haeckelcs@reddit
How do you imagine Ukraine retaking that territory? I'm very interested.
At this moment, it's not a gain, but down the line it definitely is.
Look at the US. Why do you think they are pushing so hard for those minerals in Western Ukraine?
loggy_sci@reddit
The U.S. wants a minerals deal in order to break their dependency on China.
Ukraine wants an end to the war is willing to sign a minerals deal with the U.S. in order to keep getting support.
Russia wants western investment in hydrocarbons (shale, arctic exploration). They want to cut a deal over minerals and be the U.S. supplier. Nobody actually trusts them given how they’ve weaponized energy during this war.
ZhouDa@reddit
The same ways they've taken territory in the past I'd imagine. Either in Kherson or in Kharkiv or Kursk regions. Taking land is not easy, but Ukraine has proven they are very capable of doing so. Even the counter-offensive which was largely regarded as a failure took nearly a dozen settlements across some of the most fortified segments of the front. The reason Ukraine doesn't do so more often is because they're making a purposeful decision that attriting Russian forces are a more valuable goal. Which works fine as a strategy in my opinion, Russia is incapable of supporting the war effort at the current operational tempo indefinitely. Either they will have to pull back eventually or will become weak enough that a counter-offensive can be made at much lower cost.
Because Trump is a transactional president and the only way to keep the interest of a narcissist like him who already favors Russia is to dangle something shiny in front of his face. In truth the US would have the same difficulty in mining those that Russia has now and if they wanted to gain anything from those rights would probably need to become more invested in helping Ukraine instead of hurting them.
Mundane_Emu8921@reddit
Except taking 1/5 of Ukrainian land, about 75% of its resources and like 7-8 million of its people.
Other than that, yeah, I guess they did nothing.
I’m sure an attack with 10,000 troops on a city of millions, which was the most obvious bait I have ever seen in my life, is the entire military campaign.
yungsmerf@reddit
Here comes the expert again. I don't even visit this sub often but i already recognize your name.
They did all that within the first few months. I mean, the Russian military leadership certainly showed its incompetence in the early stages, but I sincerely doubt they were idiotic enough to throw their elite of the elite into a "bait" attack. They obviously wouldn't have been able to take the capital, but they wanted that airfield near Kyiv to bring troops by those 20 IL-76's for a reason.
Mundane_Emu8921@reddit
Expert?
Dude, this is stuff I’ve read in the Washington Post. Lol.
Conquered an area the size of the UK.
Yeah. That makes total sense.
A good rule of thumb to find out where an army puts its main importance is seeing where they deploy divisions.
Russia deployed no divisions in the North.
They deployed a mechanized brigade and a national guard brigade.
National guard units don’t even have heavy weaponry.
In the south, Russia deployed five divisions.
All of them Guards, meaning elite.
3 of them were Airborne, Air Assault or Mountain units.
And we saw the results.
They broke through the Crimean Isthmus in 24 hours.
In 72 hours they entered Kherson.
In 96 they had effectively encircled Mariupol, which was the industrial port of Ukraine.
It controlled most of Ukraine’s steel, coal, and neon production.
Everyone just focused on Kyiv because you only want to report good news.
yungsmerf@reddit
Ukraine had a few hundred troops stationed in Perekop at most against literally tens of thousands of invaders, like what? I remember that being mentioned in an interview just recently. Could've sent mobiks with a week of training and they still would've advanced, they had a massive numerical superiority in basically every aspect, up until Mykolaiv. Probably spent more time driving than actually fighting. I fail to see how using elementary math speaks to their competence, that was entirely on Ukraine for those half-assed preparations.
What does speak for it, however, were those supply lines or the lack there of after the initial push in some regions, almost like they didn't even plan to expect any sort of resistance or to stay that long. And those goddamn convoys that got hit, surely someone got fired for that or worse.
Mundane_Emu8921@reddit
Well why the hell did they station a few hundred troops?
It’s like the second most defensible place in Europe behind Gibraltar.
Why wouldn’t you defend a natural choke point like that? That just calls into question Ukraine’s competence.
Jesus H Christ. Smh.
Of course that doesn’t fit with the mainstream narrative.
Make up your mind. Either they had supply lines or they didn’t.
Stick to your narrative.
If you are claiming that Russia invaded in 2014, I’m going to be skeptical of anyone saying “oh they underestimated the resistance”
Really? They fought an 8 year war and didn’t think Ukraine would fight back?
They fought how many large scale battles against Ukraine prior to 2022?
Just because BBC didn’t run stories on Donbass doesn’t mean it wasn’t happening.
yungsmerf@reddit
Why wouldn’t you defend a natural choke point like that? That just calls into question Ukraine’s competence.
- That's what I said.
Ukraine outnumbered Russia 2:1. There has never been a single battle in this war where Russia outnumbered Ukraine. Lol.
- Not even true. Literally just established that the main reason for their advance was the numerical superiority, be it manpower or artillery, and then you go ahead and pull something like that out. Deliberately lying or believing Russian sources for claims?
lack of supply lines? I remember a very large convoy stuck outside Kyiv that then dispersed. Make up your mind. Either they had supply lines or they didn’t.
- And I remember their soldier clearly starving and lacking supplies in multiple areas, probably why they couldn't hold on to half of their gains. Almost as if two things can be true at once, poorly planned or even nonexistent supply lines, and poorly or not at all protected convoys. Pick your preferred category of incompetence.
Of course that doesn’t fit with the mainstream narrative.
- Oh, you're one of those "free-thinker" contrarians?
and don’t project American experiences in Iraq onto Russia. It’s cringe.
- No idea what you're even talking about.
If you are claiming that Russia invaded in 2014, I’m going to be skeptical of anyone saying “oh they underestimated the resistance” Really? They fought an 8 year war and didn’t think Ukraine would fight back?
- It was just a slight, how the fuck would i know what their military command was thinking? They likely weren't intending for it to go on for this long. which could tie in with the Kyiv offensive in order to force terms in the 2022 talks, when that failed, the strategy changed.
Just because BBC didn’t run stories on Donbass doesn’t mean it wasn’t happening.
- Who are you even arguing with?
Mundane_Emu8921@reddit
According to Wikipedia, it’s very true. But I called it!
It’s still true to this day.
Number of soldiers each side has is how many soldiers they both deploy in theater.
Ukraine had 300,00 soldiers at the time of invasion.
Russia had about 150,000.
Ukraine uses “being outnumbered” as an excuse to explain why they are losing.
I had no idea that Wikipedia was a Russian source.
how do you remember that?
Were you there?
Or did you just read some headline.
Do you also think that a magical “ghost” flew around the skies and blew up all the Russian planes?
Or that an 80 year old woman threw a jar of tomatoes and brought down a fighter jet?
yungsmerf@reddit
Ukraine had 300,00 soldiers at the time of invasion. Russia had about 150,000
-How many of those 300k were at the front during the launch of the invasion? Even I, knowing as little as i do about military matters, know that about half of active duty soldiers are deployed to the front during wartime. And at a time when there was basically no front other than the frozen Donbas conflict one, there's a near 0% chance that there was anywhere near that amount of troops, we're probably looking at 100k at most. If you're gonna use the total amount of active duty soldiers for Ukraine, you might as well do the same for Russia, since it makes about the same amount of sense.
how do you remember that? Were you there?
-Reports at the time, and there were intercepted calls that got uploaded online, if i remember correctly.
The rest is just schizoposting, nothing really to respond to there.
Mundane_Emu8921@reddit
We know 200,000 were deployed along the Line of Contact in Donbas.
Largest military buildup by Ukraine ever.
You had 200,000 trained and equipped Ukrainians about to pounce on ~40,000 separatist militiamen.
It was going to be a total slaughter.
Russia marched on Kyiv in order to draw Ukraine’s forces away from Donbas.
Think of it like chess. When your King is in check you can’t move any piece until you break the check or move your king.
Ukraine had to break the check so they redeployed 160,000 soldiers back to Kyiv.
Donetsk ordered a total, mandatory evacuation of all residents.
kwonza@reddit
But hey, don’t you know that “the ball is on the Russian side” and Putin’s unwillingness to give Ukraine a chance to regroup and rearm means that he plans a total war to conquer the entire free world?)
Mundane_Emu8921@reddit
Most Westerners, especially Americans, are so stupid that you have to frame events like WW2 for them to understand it.
So every war is between good guys and bad guys.
The bad guys are ruled by this evil dictator who will conquer the world if we don’t stop him.
Bad guy dictator control bad guy country as this Stalin-Hitler-Mao tyrant.
Bad guy dictator invades innocent, pure, good guy country to reform “Greater country name “.
And it is up to us to stop him.
If all this sounds exactly like the plot of every superhero or action film ever, that’s the point.
You have an entire culture that is as raised on superhero films or action movies with the simplest plot lines so that is the only way they can understand the world.
Haeckelcs@reddit
I believe they call those freedom tours.
BeyondCraft@reddit
What do you mean by kicked out? Ukrainians kicked Ruzzians and then retreated.
fellow90@reddit
So he will be producing tanks and shells during ceasefire, but Ukraine not allowed to boost their defences in case if Putin decided to continue ? Delusional.
hauntedSquirrel99@reddit
Not if, when.
He's looking to turn a ceasefire into an opportunity to rearm.
Not delusional, it's the exact kind of dumbfuck play a lot of westerners fall for.
throwawayainteasy@reddit
No way, man. The guy who broke the last 20-something ceasefires can definitely be trusted this time around
kwonza@reddit
Sure, because Ukraine was carefully observing the previous agreements, lol.
Ropetrick6@reddit
Not invading Russia? Yeah, Ukraine was pretty adamantly observing that. Shame that Russia decided to break the agreement by refusing to return the favor.
Patient-Mulberry-659@reddit
Which agreement was that?
thefluffiestpuff@reddit
the budapest memorandum?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum
ChaosDancer@reddit
US throught its sanction on Belarus broke it first, furthermore according to the US the memorandum has no legal standing.
Ropetrick6@reddit
Russia broke it by threatening Ukraine well before that
aiij@reddit
The Budapest Accord?
Ropetrick6@reddit
The ceasefire agreement between Ukraine and Russia...
BehemothDeTerre@reddit
Russia and Hamas just need to invade, it's innate. Inhumane to expect them not to!
chillichampion@reddit
So Israel can occupy Palestinian Territories recognised by international law but Russia shouldn’t occupy Ukraine?
BehemothDeTerre@reddit
What? Were you trying to respond to someone else?
Competitive-Box1453@reddit
Eat a potato, Misha, yoy're not yourself when you're hungry.
fre-ddo@reddit
Hey fuck you man this time we have the king of the dealmakers!!
FILTHBOT4000@reddit
It also gives him an unbelievably easy out to end the ceasefire any time he likes.
"Will not mobilize or train soldiers" is an insane ask. He's basically saying all of Ukraine's military has to sit on their butts and not engage in any further training or movement, or he can attack again.
chillichampion@reddit
It’s simple, he doesn’t want a ceasefire. It doesn’t benefit him.
damien24101982@reddit
thats why ukrainias offered it, lets be real :D with their terms, its no accident usa spoke to them first. its a theater.
esjb11@reddit
Well ukraine would likely recieve said tanks after the ceasefire ends. Dont think a deal like this will happen but its equally delusional to expect Russia to agree to a temporary ceasefire when they have the momentum giving ukraine the time to fortify themself and safely retreat from Kursk etc. Its obvious that Russia would demand something in return. Hence unlikely to get a ceasefire at all
fellow90@reddit
It's just means Putin doesn't want any peace and it was just fake narrative.
esjb11@reddit
Not any more than that Ukraine wants peace was just a fake narrative. Both sides wants a peace where they achieve at least some of their wargoals. Noone of them seems to be willing to settle where they currently stands
fellow90@reddit
I think you are trying to equalize both sides here on purpose with dumb manipulations or you just pretending that you don't understand. One side wants peace with guarantees that Putin will not attack them in near future. Other side want's peace with destabilized Ukraine and without ability to defend themselves. Do you see the difference here ?
electronicdaosit@reddit
One side wants the winning party to surrender. The other side wants to impose their will on the losing party.
Now the decision to be made is this " Should we spend a combined trillion dollars for Ukraine to keep losing this war?" Or " should we spend that money to rebuild an at least functioning Ukraine?"
You could say, " russia will invade again later" But that's like saying the US would do another Afghan invasion.
Did the US invade Japan after they signed their surrender?
Regulus242@reddit
That's an absurd comparison. The war was INITIATED with an invasion by the aggressor. The aggressor already HAD an agreement with the victim that they broke to invade. The aggressor also went after Crimea and took it prior.
Compared to the War on Terror which was bullshit, yeah, the US might just find another set of "weapons of mass destruction" or a new Bin Laden and do it again.
rowida_00@reddit
So many eclectic points with no sense of direction whatsoever or understanding of the precursors that led to any of it.
ElectricalBook3@reddit
You didn't respond to a single thing u Regulus242 said.
rowida_00@reddit
Russia didn’t break anything to invade Ukraine. That was a lie! Russia and Ukraine never signed a bilateral ceasefire agreement between each others as sovereign states. The agreement was between the separatists and Ukraine, brokered by Russia. Second of all, read the quotes yourself
Holland literally agreed. This is the definition of temporary fix and buying time for Ukraine.
ElectricalBook3@reddit
It violated its own signed 1994 Budapest Memorandum where it signed it would respect Ukraine's sovereignty and 1994 borders. It has been in violation ever since 2003 when it started interfering in Ukraine's elections.
Your source still doesn't agree with your claim that Europe forced a peace to rearm Ukraine. The 2015 Minsk Agreement was done between Russia and Ukraine which was essentially at Russian gunpoint, the EU wasn't involved in that. What French president Francois Holland said was an observation that, in the clear face of Russia renegging on the cease-fire right away that it was re-arming, knowing more conflict was in the near future.
rowida_00@reddit
Russia didn’t break anything to invade Ukraine
The Budapest memorandum was a non legally binding agreement, not an actual treaty. If it were legally binding, the U.S. would be intervening militarily in the conflict as one of the major states that granted Ukraine “assurances”!
When did I use the words “forced peace to rearm Ukraine”. I’m assuming you don’t lack basic comprehension skills?
So the Minsk agreement, in accordance to the admission of France and Germany, was a temporary fix that was used to rearm Ukraine? Great.
ElectricalBook3@reddit
Now I know you're a propagandist. There was no military intervention in the treaty and that's not what "legally binding" means
https://treaties.un.org/doc/Publication/UNTS/Volume%203007/Part/volume-3007-I-52241.pdf
rowida_00@reddit
Where did I say the memorandum has a “military intervention” clause? I’ve literally attributed the lack of intervention, despite the assurances provided, to the fact that it’s not legally binding. And that’s not my opinion. It’s literally a fact which you can read about it!
ElectricalBook3@reddit
I quoted you both times. Don't pretend to be angry about your explicit words being responded to directly. There's nothing in it about military intervention, therefore you trying to pretend only military intervention would prove legally binding shows you either don't know what "legally binding" means or you are explicitly speaking in bad faith.
rowida_00@reddit
I’m assuming you don’t lack basic comprehension skills? Because nowhere in that quote did I actually say “military intervention was stipulated in the Budapest memorandum”! I literally commented within in accordance to the context of assurances. And the Budapest memorandum isn’t legally binding. That’s a fact. It’s literally a factual reality. I’ve provided you with a report detailing why it’s not legally binding. What exactly are you feebly denying here?
ElectricalBook3@reddit
Why are you harassing me about this? I gave you a link, there is no such "assurances of military intervention". If you want to act like something like that is in there, show me. You're trying to re-interpret the 1994 Budapest Memorandum like Trump is trying to "re-interpret" the Constitution to let him do whatever he feels like this particular day.
rowida_00@reddit
Harassing you? I wouldn’t have acknowledged your very existence if you hadn’t replied to my comment to begin with. And the block option exists if you feel “harassed”. I just find your lack of basic comprehension skills astounding. If you’re going to sit there and argue the Budapest memorandum was legally binding, I’d expect you to cite a legal interpretation that makes that claim. I provided a source that explains why it’s not legally binding. That’s not my personal opinion. Can you substantiate your claims with factual evidence?
Regulus242@reddit
Amazing rebuttal. Very impressive.
rowida_00@reddit
What would you like to refute exactly? That the Minsk agreements were simply viewed as a temporary fix to allow Ukraine to rearm like Angela Merkel and Francois Holland, the French president, have both admitted.?
That Crimea is overwhelmingly inhabited by ethnic Russians? And that they have chosen to be part of Russia, exercising their right to self determination, in accordance to western and non Russian polling organizations?
That Ukraine violated the Minsk agreement by not adhering to the political provisions they agreed to? What part would you like me to dispute?
historicusXIII@reddit
As if Russia didn't increase its arms during that same period.
protonpack@reddit
The USSR was engaged in Russification of non-Russian states for a long time, setting up this exact casus belli now. What did Latvia do with many of the Russians that the Soviets relocated there?
You're just an imperialist finding excuses for a stronger country taking what it wants from a weaker country. Do you believe that principle is even worth fighting against?
rowida_00@reddit
Crimea has been Russian since 1783, not during the USSR. It was gifted away to the Ukrainian Socialist Soviet republic in 1954 when it was part of the USSR and that population is entitled to the choice of exercising their right of self determination whether you want to brand it as “imperialism” or not.
protonpack@reddit
When will Russia be letting the annexed territory vote on who they want to stay with?
Wait - that's actually a great idea. Russia should have more bullshit referendums right away with a completely fraudulent vote. Then they can claim even the territory they just destroyed and took over actually wants them there too. I should be a fascist political strategist.
The Russian military has been covertly working with Russian separatists for years, stoking this conflict the same way they do in every country on their borders. Their elections are bullshit.
Russia does not respect the right to self determination of any nations from within the former USSR. Claiming such gives away your complete and total bias. A Russian appealing to democracy is a complete joke. Get back to me when you've experienced it.
rowida_00@reddit
It’s rather incontrovertible [that Crimeans have chosen to rejoin Russia.]https://archive.is/UxRjs) That is an indisputable fact. Whether you’d like to come to terms with this reality or reject it entirely is immaterial to its legitimacy. You first made a feeble attempt at negating the claim ethnic Russians had to Crimea as if ethnic Ukrainians had a greater claim. And now you’ve shifted the argument to the newly annexed territories. Non of those oblasts would be annexed had Ukraine adhered to the same political provisions they agreed to in the Minsk agreement, concerning autonomous governance in the Donbas. So now that things spiralled out of order, they’re suddenly interested in reincorporating those territories back?
protonpack@reddit
I don't give a fuck about your gishgallop dude. You are defending a country with fraudulent elections by pointing to elections. It's brain dead. Russia does not respect the self determination of former Soviet states. That is incontrovertible. You need to focus on stupid shit like history from the 1700s because you're unable to speak with integrity and call out a larger power dominating a smaller one because it can. You have an immoral position.
esjb11@reddit
There were no weapons of mass destruction. It was made up
Regulus242@reddit
Hence why it's in quotes.
esjb11@reddit
Whats so absurd then? Both sides might make up bullshit casus Bellis to invade.
Regulus242@reddit
Then maybe I took it incorrectly, because it seemed like they were saying that the US wouldn't do it again, hence why I followed up with the fact that they might.
esjb11@reddit
Oh I think you mussunderstood him then. He argued that claiming Russia might just invade again is like claiming that America might just invade Afghanistan again. That the chance of it happening is not enough to turn down the concept of a negotiated peace
ElasticLama@reddit
Russias done so much “winning”
chillichampion@reddit
If Russia is losing, Ukraine should reject the ceasefire and keep pushing. Why should Ukraine give up its advantage?
ElasticLama@reddit
Because art of the deal trump doesn’t know how to negotiate (assuming he’s not some Russia asset)
Putin was never going to agree to the terms Ukraine and the US offered so it was all a pointless waste of time while the aid gets turned back on….
Given Ukraine is currently taking back areas Russia spend months taking and huge amounts of soldiers etc I don’t think they are winning. Is Ukraine winning? Fuck no they’ve lost a lot but held on.
Now if the US sells Ukraine out all bets are off tbh because they could really screw Ukraine
chillichampion@reddit
1) And who knows how to negotiate? There have been no attempts to negotiate before trump. Neither Zelensky, EU not Biden tried to negotiate. At least trump is trying to end the war.
2)You’re right, Putin will never agree to a ceasefire which would only give Ukraine respite.
3) Ukraine has taken 30% of toretsk and 40% of shevchenko, it’s not even a fraction compared to what Russia has taken in 2024, not to mention 600 sqkm of the Kursk enclave which Ukraine took with an intention of using it as a bargaining chip.
4)We’ve been told that Europe can easily replace the US aid by stepping up.
ElectricalBook3@reddit
Why are you pushing this false information? There was constant negotiation. Those negotiations, just like these, went nowhere because Putin is not speaking in good faith.
chillichampion@reddit
What negotiations? After Ukraine walked away from Istanbul agreements, Zelensky banned negotiations with Russia. There were no negotiations attempted to end this war after that.
ElasticLama@reddit
Russia was invaded to the peace summit in Switzerland. They also were given a number of off ramps and leaders like Macron talked endlessly with Putin during the war.
He stared his maximalist goals like all Nazis being removed from Ukraine
Most of the areas Russia has taken is empty fields in 2024 and a few bombed our towns. It wasn’t huge manoeuvre warfare.
Kursk looks like its failed as a bargaining chip, but it may have diverted a lot of martial away from the east, could end up being a big loss for Ukraine if they get encircled but we won’t know for a while yet
ariehn@reddit
Did Russia invade Ukraine after they signed the ceasefire?
I mean yeah, they did.
esjb11@reddit
Its not only that they want gurantees for the peace. Its also about the lines of the borders. The gurantees is just one of the topics for ukraine.
Aaron_Hamm@reddit
We'd have peace today if Russia just went back to its own country
electronicdaosit@reddit
We wouldn't have been here if the US had just decided to stop being imperialists after the coldwar.
You guys kept invading or bombing all your enemies, then act surprised other countries are paranoid of you.
calmdownmyguy@reddit
Bud, we wouldn't be here if russia didn't always invade everyone who shares a border with them every couple of years. You understand the russia it the imperialistic aggressor in this war, right?
It's not the United States' fault that russia is so corrupt that their sphere of influence can't even fill out their own borders anymore. If they hadn't stolen all of their nation's wealth to put into the pockets of a handful of individuals and tried to prop up puppet regimes in all of their former spheres of influence, they wouldn't find themselves so isolated and hated.
electronicdaosit@reddit
Are they or are they acting like any other nuclear superpower would if their neighbor is on the precipice of joining an antagonistic military alliance?
Lol, that's funny because right now all of europe and the US is blaming all their shortfalls on Russia. Rightwing politicians getting elected " Russian interference "! The people being fed up with corporations controlling their lifes" Russian Propaganda!".
nyan_eleven@reddit
calling NATO an antagonistic military alliance is wild. Strangely enough I can't recall European air forces probing Russian airspace regularly, the Russian military on the other hand...
Salazarsims@reddit
NATO is a protection racket for thugs. Nothing peaceful about those countries they are always at war.
electronicdaosit@reddit
Nato members have attacked or invaded more countries than non Nato members...... Thays just objectively true.
calmdownmyguy@reddit
That has to be the dumbest take anyone has ever had. You think the invasion of Afghanistan is more than every other invasion since the end of WW2?
electronicdaosit@reddit
No, the dumbest take ever is thinking a defensive military alliance exists.
Look at how many countries nato members have attacked or invaded.
Dont be wilfully ignorant.
calmdownmyguy@reddit
Give me a list of the countries invaded by the nato alliance.
electronicdaosit@reddit
I said Nato members.
But sure, he is the actual nato alliance. Yugoslavia and Libya and Afghansitan and Iraq.
That doesn't include somalia or syria or yemen, or Pakistan. Or Iran.
calmdownmyguy@reddit
Yugoslavia was not invaded, Libya was authorized by the UN, Iraq was not attacked by nato. Somalia, Syria, Yemen, Pakistan, and Iran were also not invaded or attacked by nato.
You're not very good at bullshit.
electronicdaosit@reddit
Nato troops were in Yugoslavia. that's invasion.
So what? That means fuck all to the libyans living in a failed state.
Yeah, you might want to see about that. Nato was in Iraq.
You know who else was in Iraq.... Ukraine with 5000 troops.
Nato members.
No I fucking didnt you lying sack of poop, the comment would say its edited which you can see it wasnt.
ItsNateyyy@reddit
even in a more visually appealing form, here all the countries that have been invaded by just the largest NATO member
calmdownmyguy@reddit
Bud, I didn't ask about what an individual country did. I asked about the organization known as nato. The problem you have is that you can't actually criticize nato because they don't go around attacking people.
ItsNateyyy@reddit
they do, be that Afghanistan, Serbia, Libya or Iraq. All of those were NATO missions.
But even outside of that: the close military cooperation between NATO members is used outside of the NATO framework too, so it's a bit dishonest to act like we should only look at official NATO missions.
calmdownmyguy@reddit
Bud, people voted for maga because they are racist ignorant pieces of shit, not because they are tired of corporate America. The way they all suck evons dick should make that obvious to you.
Aaron_Hamm@reddit
Ah yes, the totally imperialistic activity of... Checks notes... Not taking any land anywhere...
Please stop gobbling Russian propaganda, my dude
Fantastic-String5820@reddit
You think annexation is the only form of imperialism? Lol
Aaron_Hamm@reddit
No, what you do to the Palestinians is another kind...
King_Kvnt@reddit
Eh, I'd get off your high horse. You guys are enablers of that particular kind too.
Aaron_Hamm@reddit
If only the innocent can condemn the guilty, you certainly don't belong here
King_Kvnt@reddit
That'd be a zinger... if I had condemned anyone.
Aaron_Hamm@reddit
I'm not sure you followed along...
babybabayyy@reddit
Your comment is funny because you don't even realize how brainwashed you are.
soggycow2790@reddit
The US did not force or coerce ex-USSR countries to join NATO. They made their own decision, which Russian leadership did not like.
electronicdaosit@reddit
Well the Ukrainian president made the decision to go with Russia instead of the EU. And then the Eu and The US couped that government.
soggycow2790@reddit
This is a disinformation narrative propagated by the Russian state. There is no credible evidence to suggest that the US or EU funded $5 billion to overthrow Yankovych nor provoked the Euromaiden protests.
electronicdaosit@reddit
I have no clue how people can say this stuff after USAID funding was revealed.
Literally most NGOs and media companies have been funded in Ukraine by the US government but suuuuuuuure you can be wilfully ignorant.
turbo-unicorn@reddit
Considering that Nuland actually tried pretty hard to keep Yanukovich in power, that must've been the clumsiest coup ever.
Regulus242@reddit
"Boy I sure am paranoid about America...better invade Ukraine and blame it on Nazis!"
electronicdaosit@reddit
No different from " boy, i sure am paranoid about saudi terrorist attackers.. better invade Iraq and Afghanistan. "
Regulus242@reddit
I'm not defending it
electronicdaosit@reddit
Sure, but if you are looking at the price paid for that invasion you can see how literally the entirety of the rest of the world sees this as " the EU/US are a bunch of hypocrits".
So all of you guys here are just a bunch of hypocrites. Because you say " the war on terror was a mistake " but there was no consequences to your actions.
While you want Russia to basically disintegrate for the same shit you guys did.
Regulus242@reddit
"Boy I sure am paranoid about America...better invade Ukraine and blame it on Nazis!"
No? I just want Russia to leave Ukraine alone. Step out of your bubble for a second. You brain is making up stories that don't exist.
electronicdaosit@reddit
Buddy, what kind of bubble do you live in where nations leave each other alone?
Trust me if I had a button i could push, that would prevent every country from meddling in others afairs, I would push that shit so hard it would break my hand.
That's just not the world we live in , so i dont selectively apply my morals when it benefits me.
And an American talking shit about Russia is the most hypocritical thing ever.
The kings of meddling telling everyone else to not meddle.
calmdownmyguy@reddit
It seemsclike you are selectively applying morales.
Regulus242@reddit
Because you're making up stories that I want Russia to disintegrate, but nice deflection.
Nice strawman, I never did this.
No it isn't, I criticize my own, too. And the problem is Putin.
I am not my country.
babybabayyy@reddit
You're outing yourself as a person who clearly has no grasp on the situation at hand.
Regulus242@reddit
Oh, do explain it to me then.
adjective-noun-one@reddit
The sheer irony of stating this in defense of Russia lmao
Accurate_Summer_1761@reddit
Tell me. What state/province etc would you be willing to lose for peace.
SpinningHead@reddit
LOL Weird how Ukraine doesnt want to surrender parts of its own territory.
esjb11@reddit
I did not say it was weird. I just stated it.
Holy-Beloved@reddit
Your comment almost seems sort of anti Ukraine. Peace for Putin would be taking Ukraine, no?
genius_retard@reddit
War is the only thing keeping the Russian economy afloat at the moment. He won't agree to a cease fire under pretty much any conditions because then the Russian economy will fall apart.
EsperaDeus@reddit
That is also the reason why it's overheating.
ElectricalBook3@reddit
Overheating? Do you mean cannibalizing itself?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QU0resswOds
historicusXIII@reddit
Two year old video
ElectricalBook3@reddit
If you have information which refutes it, you'd have posted it.
"That which may be asserted without evidence may be dismissed without evidence."
So no, I don't trust an internet rando with no evidence trying to call into question a comment with evidence. Either put better facts or sit back.
historicusXIII@reddit
The Russian economy not having collapsed yet is refutation enough. Every western expert, the one in your video included, has severely underestimated the durability of the Russian economy.
ElectricalBook3@reddit
If you have no clue about what sanctions are, sure. For educated people, it's a spectrum of response that rewards friends who are reliable with beneficial trade that allow both parties to grow and for bad-faith parties that engage in broad economic theft or military invasion like Russia it punishes them by leaving them with less development and access, leaving them further and further behind every year.
You're trying to pretend "the sanctions alone haven't cured cancer and created moon bases and also stopped this war instantly so they aren't doing anything". Sanctions have a large number of effects and you can claim to be anything but pushing "sanctions aren't working on an arbitrary goalpost I'll move as soon as you make a comment" just makes you sound like a moscow bobblehead.
You don't have to have gone to the Naval War College to understand how sanctions and treaties work in the interconnected push-and-pull of international politics and economics. But maybe you should listen to some people who teach there: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcVSgYz5SJ8
historicusXIII@reddit
I'm not the one moving the goal posts. At the start we were promised that the sanctions would cripple the Russian economy that it would make Russia either unable to continue its war or that it would force them to sue for peace. Now that that hasn't happened after three years, it has now shifted to "it will make Russia fall a bit behind".
Same thing with aviation experts, who assured that Russian airlines wouldn't be able to keep flying for more than two years. Except they still do, and the US is currently negotiating allowing Russian flights again, indicating they trust the maintenance and safety of Russian planes.
entered_bubble_50@reddit
Kinda, but not really. There's nothing stopping Putin from carrying on spending at the same rate to prop up the economy even in peacetime. Wars don't drive growth in themselves, government spending does.
The problem is the sanctions. He needs those dropped in order to prevent the economy from nosediving when government spending stops. His concern is that this becomes a frozen conflict, guaranteed by British, fr*nch and German forces, but with the sanctions still in place.
Walker_352@reddit
Not at all, it will take years to fill up the lost reserves of equipment, a 30 day cease fire will have no effect on the war industries.
Regulus242@reddit
We had that proof from the start when he invaded.
ZippyDan@reddit
Are you crazy? That was a totally peaceful invasion.
tmpope123@reddit
Really hope that's sarcasm. If not, I have a bridge to sell you.
ZippyDan@reddit
Tell me more about your bridge.
ElectricalBook3@reddit
https://apnews.com/article/baltimore-bridge-collapse-53169b379820032f832de4016c655d1b
ZippyDan@reddit
I would like to buy your bridge.
Bas-hir@reddit
I really dont know why people keep saying that considering in this todays age, Bridges ( and Highways ) are actually really sold.
Are you like really old? like in the 70s or something?
rednehb@reddit
Sucks that the kids don't understand any of these references.
In the US, it was frequently "I have a bridge to Hawaii to sell you." UK/France was "I have a bridge to (UK/France) to sell you." Russia was "I have a bridge to Crimea to sell you" (fuck)
But the "bridge to sell you" jokes were all well known impossible endeavors. So, they were jokes.
LucidiK@reddit
No, it was clearly an invasion. According to the U.S. it was a reverse invasion of Ukraine invading their own country, thus provoking Russia to respond.
The words don't have to make sense, the people want answers!!
Hellknightx@reddit
Russia was holding all the cards. Including a shiny Charizard. And Ukraine really wanted that one.
Casual-Speedrunner-7@reddit
It was a fiery but mostly peaceful invasion.
usesidedoor@reddit
Peaceful exercises. Lavrov ensured we were all too concern and paranoid.
ZippyDan@reddit
All of the murders, raped, kidnappings, and tortured were done under totally peaceful conditions and wholly consensual. Putin is a man of peace.
geldwolferink@reddit
but not pointy
YMIR_THE_FROSTY@reddit
Unironically, it was at start, for a lot longer time than I expected. Just it seems most ppl dont really remember or want to. Bit selective memory, much like COVID.
ZippyDan@reddit
If you are crossing sovereign territorial borders armed with lethal weapons and mechanized death machines, you are not a peaceful invader.
chillichampion@reddit
He wants peace on his terms. Everyone wants peace.
Eexoduis@reddit
If he wants peace why does he keep starting wars you'd never
AccomplishedLeek1329@reddit
The point of starting a war is the peace that you want afterwards.
That's just how wars in general work, they are an extension of diplomacy.
ZippyDan@reddit
"We will have peace when all of you are dead."
AccomplishedLeek1329@reddit
Indeed, that is how many wars have worked throughout human history. War is inherently unfair.
The Qing-Uighur war of extermination against the Dzungars that were the original inhabitants of XingJiang would be one such example just off the top of my head.
ZippyDan@reddit
Some crazy small percentage of humans feel like human civilization should have moved past that ethos by now.
AccomplishedLeek1329@reddit
Has it? The post-cold war pax-americana "rule-based world order" is more an aberration of history than anything else, only caused by the unquestionable supremacy of the US that just so happened to support such a world order.
We're now seemingly completed the move back towards great power competition, where the great powers get to do whatever they want within their own spheres of influences, up to and including genocide.
And if Russia, China, and the US all want the same thing, that is what will happen. No one has the power to resist them.
ChaosDancer@reddit
The post-cold war pax-americana "rule-based world order" saw the essential destruction of South America, Africa and middle east. The coups throught the word in order to support "US interests" realy clarified "rule-based world order".
I especialy liked the that in the last 25 years the "rule-based world order" have supported war in the Iran - Iraq war, the invasion of Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Lybia and myriad others. But don't worry the "rule-based world order" to clarify that we really do not support "Might makes right" just ignore everything that happened after world war 2.
Testiclese@reddit
Rule based order doesn’t mean no wars ever. It “destroyed” Africa? Really? What was Africa before then, during the height of European colonialism? Last I checked South Africa moved away from Apartheid and counties like Botswana and Namibia have an actual middle class - something unthinkable during the time when “enlightened” Europeans called the shots there.
eagleal@reddit
He means the invasion and large-scale wars didn't happen even though the world had the most powerful and biggest militaries of any time.
That's what called pax-americana. It started with the Percentage Agreements between UK and USSR back before WW2 was over, and saw the dominance of the USA for most of XX and early XXI century.
It doesn't mean like real peace or anything like rose tinded and rainbow sky.
ElectricalBook3@reddit
Is it? Maybe the history of bloodshed is a consequence of tyrants and the natural push-back against them and human nature isn't actually "violent animals which need an iron fist to control them"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humankind:_A_Hopeful_History
Eexoduis@reddit
War does not lead to peace. Putin has not been satisfied with the “peace afterwards” yet. You’d think he would finally learn that it does not exist.
War is an extension of diplomacy the same way a bullet in your skull is the extension of a disagreement. It is an escalation. It represents a failure of diplomacy.
AccomplishedLeek1329@reddit
That's just not true historically.
Rome genociding Carthage for example did lead to peace.
North Vietnam killing off South Vietnam led to peace (also Union amd CSA).
The US wars against Spain and Mexico led to peace.
The entire South American continent was embroiled in endless interstate war up until the end of ww2, when all the territorial claims were finally settled militarily.
Wars generally don't lead to another war as long as the losing side is sufficiently mutilated to the point that any future war becomes impossible to win.
ElectricalBook3@reddit
Given the following era was almost constant civil war added to their unending wars of conquest (which failed, see Teutoburg Forest), no that did not lead to peace. It led to their hegemony, which is not the same thing given the kind of society they had disintegrated back into the effectively kingship which it so prided itself on moving beyond.
AccomplishedLeek1329@reddit
It led to peace between Carthage (which no longer existed) and Rome.
Yada yada "they make a wasteland and call it peace" ect, but it is peace.
Which is why people should be talking about concepts like positive peace / negative peace instead of just peace in general.
the_lonely_creeper@reddit
Generally when people talk about peace in good faith, there's an obvious implication that it's a good peace.
Czart@reddit
Are you unironically going "war is peace" right now?
chillichampion@reddit
No. He explained it clearly. If you win a war and subjugate the enemy enough, there will be peace on much better terms.
Czart@reddit
"If we kill everyone that opposes us there will be peace." Yup, sounds extremely peaceful.
ElectricalBook3@reddit
Especially when, historically, that list of "everyone that opposes us" grows without limit and includes domestic forces which used to be supporters.
Just ask the Freikorps or brownshirts. I should read about Mussolini again, I'm sure he exacted purges as well but can't remember if they targeted groups or individuals.
Czart@reddit
Internal enemies? Preposterous! Couldn't happen in such a peaceful nation...
They also conveniently didn't say what happens to that peace through war if you don't win a total victory.
ElectricalBook3@reddit
I think you need to read Clausewitz
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/1946/1946-h/1946-h.htm
Diplomacy and war are extensions of each other, both tools in the wrestle between nations with head factions of each trying to get what they want.
Eexoduis@reddit
An interesting opinion that I disagree with. I don’t find him to be particularly convincing.
ElectricalBook3@reddit
Then how do you explain the constant continuation of diplomacy between the Entente and Central Powers throughout WW1 - which by the way was delayed by the addition of America given Europe was exhausted and the currently involved parties were trying to sue for peace.
You can't really say diplomacy and war are separate things when they have such consistent overlap. Now I could see an argument that there is a fuzzy line between soft-power manipulation and coercion going all the way to hard power and mass murder, but even things like the arms trade itself creates and extends soft power through business contracts, unification of expectations in weights and measures and logistical operations, etc.
LawsonTse@reddit
Of course invaders rather take over peacefully
sexotaku@reddit
I think that was proven on Feb 24 2022.
LeGrandLucifer@reddit
Worse. He thinks Ukraine doesn't exist. That it's a country made up by Lenin propped up by the west.
Weird_Point_4262@reddit
Putin never said he wants peace at any cost. Russia's position has always been that peace is negotiable if Russia's demands are met, and this ceasefire offer does not meet those demands. Why would he want to stabilise and strengthen the country he's at war with?
anders_hansson@reddit
Oh I think he wants peace all right, just on his terms.
I really see no reason why Putin would agree to a temporary ceasfire. He will of course say that he's ready, with a few "minor adjustments" to the deal, only to delay the process, but it really doesn't make any sense from the Russian perspective to go for anything but the full deal (get closure, get peace), rather then entering a new phase of uncertainty that a temporary ceasfire.
Oatcake47@reddit
No pause from Europe, he doesn’t like it then he can take his ball and go home at any point.
Patient-Mulberry-659@reddit
Or he takes his ball and more of Ukraine? And never goes home.
Oatcake47@reddit
Which most sane people know and want to prevent. I hope you guys are building up the boarder because Kazakstan is on that list somewhere.
Patient-Mulberry-659@reddit
Contrary to Western propaganda and warmongering Russia isn’t much of a threat to its neighbours unless the US meddles there.
Kazakhstan can not plausibly join NATO, or be openly hostile to Russia. Just like Mexico can’t be openly hostile or join a Chinese military alliance.
Oatcake47@reddit
That’s horrible, to know you are Putllers Good boy.
Patient-Mulberry-659@reddit
How is that horrible? Try to become too friendly with China and see how well that goes as Scotland before you will feel the UK or US boot on your neck. Meanwhile with Russia you just need to not be openly hostile.
charmstrong70@reddit
Yeah, fuck it. No re-arming during the ceasefire. I’ll go along with that.
Give Europe time to buy every shell, every gun and every missile possible and just plonk them all on the polish border.
No rearming Vladimir
anders_hansson@reddit
Which is exactly why he won't agree to a temporary ceasfire. We don't trust Russia, but du you think Russia trusts the west? He wants the full deal or no deal. Russia has been very consistent about that since 2022, and they'll continue to push that line. No surprises there.
loggy_sci@reddit
Putin will settle for a partial deal or he won’t get other things he wants like removal of sanctions. His “give us everything we want or nothing at all” is ridiculous position.
SamuelClemmens@reddit
The sanctions aren't that big of a deal anymore, China is offering a "good enough" alternative to western Markets. Combined with three years of war footing to reorganize internal industry and Russia gains less and less benefit for the removal of sanctions as time goes on.
Its a resource extraction economy (aka the Gas Station with Nukes). Its pipelines are blown up and China and India are more than eager to buy up its ocean bound goods (at a discount).
All that removal of sanctions do at this point is give Russia the ability to stop selling at a discount, provided it sells to people who want to kill them.
anders_hansson@reddit
I am positive that that's the case. The question is what parts he is willing to compromise on. My guess is that at least no NATO-membership, Crimea and some parts of eastern Ukraine are non-negotiable. That was basically what was on the table in March-April 2022 and Ukraine were very close to signing that (the main issue was security guarantees), and it sounds unlikely that Russia would back from that position today.
chillichampion@reddit
His spoils in Ukraine war are much more important than sanctions.
123yes1@reddit
Russia only has the momentum in Kursk, they have lost the momentum in Donbas as Ukraine has actually regained territory in the past month there.
Think_Discipline_90@reddit
Three comments here saying stabilizing the Pokrovsk front isn’t “Russia losing momentum”. Just want to say I agree with your assessment, since I know how to read.
PreviousCurrentThing@reddit
I saw someone mention this yesterday, and the territory Ukraine reclaimed was a small village outside of Pokrovsk that Russia hadn't held for very long to begin with. Is that what you're talking about?
esjb11@reddit
Not really true. Ukraine has stabilized pokrovsk and gained some ground in toretsk. In the rest of Donbass Russia is still slowly pushing forward tough. Slower than a few months ago however. They are also having progress in kharkiv, aswell as some small advances in zaporizha.
Kursk however is the big deal. Not only momentum but a complete collapse of the UA frontline in the region captured 500square km or whatever it was in a few days. Its a big oppertunity for Russia to inflict heavy cassulties in retreating unorganized soldiers. We have also seen them enter sumy in a few regions. Its an amount of momentum we havent seen since first year of the war and they really wont just sacrifice for a months ceasefire
Patient-Mulberry-659@reddit
Not really, they are also gaining more territory outside Kursk than Ukraine. Although the pace did significantly slow down from a few months ago
Cybertrucker01@reddit
To be fair, its not like Ukraine was capable of building tanks and shells anyway after most of their existing facilities got bombed. The US suppliers will likely keep on building too, they just won't supply it into Ukraine unless there's a breach of the ceasefire and subsequent talks.
So in practical terms, there is no change to the status quo by agreeing. The difference is that there's a break in soldiers dying.
beyondmash@reddit
Do you think Europe hard no will lead to an escalation? A wider conflict?
Weird_Point_4262@reddit
Why would he accept a deal that doesn't benefit Russia? It's delusional to think it could be any other way
loggy_sci@reddit
A ceasefire is a good faith action that allows for negotiations on a peace deal. The U.S. has no reason to make a resource deal with Russia if they refuse to stop fighting.
chillichampion@reddit
You don’t a temporary ceasefire to negotiate a final peace treaty.
Toke27@reddit
That's pretty much standard procedure. You negotiate a temporary ceasefire, then set about negotiating terms for a permanent peace.
jka76@reddit
One of the reasons why we got ww2 was exactly this. Germany agreed to ceasefire assuming negotiations. But they were forced to accept Versailles treaty which resulted in collapse and humiliation later => rise of Hittler and we know the story. West learned from that. That is why Marshall plan was done after ww2 and only then Germany paid reparations.
ElectricalBook3@reddit
Why not? That's been done since before the bronze age. Establish a ceasefire so stabilization and negotiations for a peace treaty can be made.
Thestrongestzero@reddit
this is all a dog and pony show anyway.
BaguetteFetish@reddit
Thats because Putin has no intent of signing a ceasefire and this is just a token offer because even if you're obviously the aggressor you gotta make a token gesture.
Putin has no incentive strategically to sign an incentive when the current situation favors him.
silverionmox@reddit
However, he insists on a long term treaty. That's an indication he can't keep up this effort for a prolonged period anymore. So there's room to apply pressure.
Antique-Resort6160@reddit
The US already said they're going to start supplying Ukraine again. There were very productive peace talks in Turkey that zelensky walked away from, and his security service shot a key negotiator in the head. Then They tried again in Qatar but zelensky invaded kursk during the peace talks.
They likely don't see the point of a temporary ceasefire. It sounds like they want to go ahead and just implement the things that will establish a long lasting peace, instead of half-assing it.
loggy_sci@reddit
The instanbul terms were insane and no reasonable person would sign them. Ukraine was correct to refuse.
Antique-Resort6160@reddit
A reasonable person concerned about his own country could have:
1. Kept negotiating, publicizing the terms and keep trying to make a deal. Don't just walk away, that's what's insane.
I think keeping your land and allowing western peacekeepers in Ukraine seems not horrible in hindsight, compared to having hundreds of thousands die and the country destroyed. Now instead of peacekeepers , their land, and a shitty deal, they have no guarantees, lose the land, and a much shittier deal. Which was always the most likely outcome.
Now what? They can take the much worse deal or decide again to keep fighting. What are the odds that the next talks are just unconditional surrender? They still have no real allies, just more piecemeal supplies, and the US has better things to do than dump billions more into a hopeless effort. Is Ukraine really going to sacrifice their youngest men now for nothing? They haven't had any real leadership for years, just self-interested politicians.
loggy_sci@reddit
We don’t know the extent to which Russia was willing to make concessions on demands like Ukraine disarming. Also Russia committing atrocities in Bucha made their insane terms that much more impossible to accept. The notion that this was all on Ukraine is absurd.
This is magical thinking. Ukraine could magically conjure foreign troops in Ukraine. Russia would not have tolerated that. You’re blaming Ukraine for not having an alternative that was impossible.
Peacekeepers have not been part of any previous deal, nor has Ukraine keeping its land.
The next talks will be what the previous talks and the current talks are: Russia pretending to negotiate. Please stop pretending that you care about precious Ukrainian lives. The crocodile tears are a bit much.
Antique-Resort6160@reddit
Of course not. But like Georgia, they are a much smaller country fighting a neighbor with far more resources of every kind, especially manpower. It would make sense to weigh the costs of a peace deal vs a likely military destruction. I think Georgia made a much better choice.
If they're going to continue fighting, why would it matter? My point is that it never made sense for Ukraine to continue the war without concrete guarantees at least of adequate aid. They didn't even get that. There was no plan how to win or even end on better terms than the peace talks
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_negotiations_in_the_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine
I can point out that what Ukraine has done and is doing is clearly far more damaging to their country than a peace deal. It seems extremely unlikely that these decisions ate made with the interests of the Ukrainian people in mind. My interest is for the US to gtfo before things get even worse. Wars usually dong get better for everyone involved. That doesn't mean i wouldn't be happier if Ukrainians stop dying. What is the point of your remarks? If i truly cares i would want them to start drafting teens so they have enough troops to keep going?
JROXZ@reddit
Putin will continue.
ExistingCarry4868@reddit
It's intended to be a non-starter. That way trump and putin can pretend they offered peace before treating Ukraine like Poland in WW2.
SteveoberlordEU@reddit
This is the same shit as they pulled with the nukes , no Deal situation this time thou. Burn me once shame on me (the nukes) burn me twice shame you (crimea annexation with no guaranteas) there's no burn me thrice only either ashes remaining or the fire is stoped.
BehemothDeTerre@reddit
He also wants to wait until he's retaken all of Kursk to start the ceasefire.
He expects Ukraine to come to the negotiations table with 0 chips. That's a surrender.
Mornar@reddit
The idea that Putin is ready for a ceasefire for any reason at all to rest and rearm is already delusional.
Thelazytimelord257@reddit
This honestly sounds like treaty of Versailles
Kazruw@reddit
His response is (sadly not surprisingly) close to the jokes about a partial ceasefire where only Ukraine must stop shooting.
cptdino@reddit
Not only that. Ukraine won't be at war so they would order them to hold elections, paving ground for a puppet to get in and give the country to Putin when the time comes.
1DarkStarryNight@reddit (OP)
Contrary to earlier reports, Putin said he’s ‘ready’ to accept the US-proposed ceasefire but demanded ‘guarantees’ that Kyiv will not mobilize or train troops, nor receive military aid during it.
Putin also said that Russia’s goal is a ‘long-term’ peace that ‘addresses’ the country’s concerns: ”We agree with the proposals for the ceasefire, but our position is based on the assumption that the ceasefire would lead to long-term peace, something that would remove the initial reasons for the crisis”.
MRiley84@reddit
So, no NATO is his condition. He used that excuse as justification to invade in the first place. If he gets that condition, this will be repeated within the next 10 years, just like last time.
Mundane_Emu8921@reddit
If Ukraine had agreed to that back in 2022, they would be sipping lattes in Donetsk right about now.
MRiley84@reddit
Yeah, that's bullshit. Ukraine had no intentions of joining NATO. That was a false pretext used to invade.
Mundane_Emu8921@reddit
No intention?
So at the 2008 Bucharest NATO summit where NATO explicitly said their goal was to expand NATO to Ukraine, that was what again?
Nethlem@reddit
Only if the US finally learns its lesson and stops encroaching on Russia with regime change NATO proxies.
Because as you say: This ain't the first time, Georgia went pretty much the same way complete with the US giving Georgia a "knife" to attack Russia with, and NATO membership as an extra carrot on the stick to keep the Georgians motivated to fight as long as possible.
It didn't escalate as hard as Ukraine, but a lot of that is down to Ukraine being bigger population-wise and having recieved way more weapons and economic aid than Georgia, again: To keep it in the fight against Russia as long as possible.
But Georgia ain't in NATO to this day, it also ain't in the EU to this day, even tho all of those were on the table back in the 2000s as part of NATO expansion.
Georgia didn't cost Russia nearly as much as Ukraine did so far, so it's unlikely that Russia will accept anything less than it got in Georgia.
Kierenshep@reddit
Found the Russian troll. How's Putin's boot taste?
The only country NATO is meant to protect against is from Russia because, as Russia has shown with its invasion of Crimea and now Ukraine, is that they are untrustworthy expansionist warmongers.
A defensive pact is not encroaching. It's defending the small cointried Russia would love to gobble up. It's like a bully being 'antagonized' because all the kids he bullied started teaming up.
That's not how 'encroaching' works
Nethlem@reddit
There are much more civil ways to say you disagree with me.
Ways that do not involve you dragging this discussion into garbage ad hominem territory, exactly like a troll would.
Are you sure about that? Because between 1993 and 2013, for two whole decades, the official US/NATO position on Russia was allegedly this:
Mind you, that wasn't just some Clinton Admin brain fart, it was policy continued, and intensified, under Bush Jr.:
Instead, you are trying to act out this weird "We've always been at war with Eurasia!" spiel
Trying to memoryhole two decades of "War on Terror", under which NATO was expanded with the rationale of "We need to protect Europe from Iraqi/Iranian/Syrian/North Korean WMD".
Hence the US tearing up arms agreements with Russia to deploy ABM systems increasingly closer to Russia, heavily undermining nuclear strategic stability.
For the longest time Russia went along with this based on the expectation that in the long term it would be allowed to join the club, instead it got two US-sponsored color revolutions in Ukraine, with the last of them ending so violently that it escalated into a civil war.
Russia didn't need to "invade Crimea" because Russia has had a military naval base in Crimea for longer than the US has been a nation.
So you acknowledge Crimean autonomy, or why do you make these two out as separate?
I'm old enough to have been around when there was a so called "Iron Curtain", I've seen both sides of it, and only one of these two sides heavily expanded it's influence since the end of the Cold War.
It even expanded all the way to the Middle East due to its role as "force provider" for "Pax Americana", it's how German soldiers are nowadays "justified" in occupying Iraq as part of a NATO mission.
It's why NATO soldiers have to act as "peacekeepers" in Kosovo to this day, and why Kosovo would really love to become the 51st US state, which ofc, will never ever happen.
Tell that to the people of Afghanistan who had the pleasure of being occupied by said "defensive pact" for over a decade, even tho they are not even anywhere close to the North Atlantic.
Tell that to the people of Syria who had the pleasure of having their country invaded by two "special operations" from NATO militaries, allegedly "Only fighting terrorism!" to facilitate the regime change we got there just last December.
HTS operated from Turkish territory, NATO territory under article 5 protection, so Syria never stood a chance of ending this problem. For that it would have needed to attack Turkey, and then the whole of NATO would just have dogpilled on Syria for good.
The whole track record of NATO looks like that: In its whole history it didn't have a single defensive deployment on its own territory, the consequence of the "Rather out of area than out of a mission" mantra it took on after the Warshaw Pact fell apart and NATO found itself without a big baddy to justify its existence.
Except the Ukraine "kid" wasn't even interested in joining NATO, it explicitly elected a president on his premise of not joining NATO. Do you remember what happened to that president and his government, what ended up starting a civil war, by now escalated full blown war, in Ukraine?
Ask the people of Romania how it works, who had their election results revoked, and a popular candidate banned, simply for having the "wrong" opinion on NATO.
Or you can keep ignoring decades of history and call other people names, but then you better be not surprised if you also end up banned from this subreddit.
SpudroTuskuTarsu@reddit
Holy link spam you get paid per link?
Nethlem@reddit
Btw just a small addition, you readily declaring this:
Is in complete accordance to what the Soviets already thought back during its creation, because it reminded them of another allegedly "Only defensive pact!":
SpudroTuskuTarsu@reddit
I voted for the Finnish government that brought us to NATO thoughalbeit.
and don't feel that we were coerced or forced to join NATO due to any other reason than ruzzian being neantherdals (this is the story behind every nation bordering the gas station hitler).
corbynista2029@reddit
His argument is basically the militarisation of Ukraine is enough of a provocation for Russia, which means he thinks Ukraine is simply a rebellious state within Russia. It's no different to China believing that Taiwan's militarisation is provocation, or Israel finds it unacceptable for an independent Palestine to have a Palestinian army.
Different bullies, same playbook.
Gogetablade@reddit
Huh? Israel is not in the same category as Russia or China in this context.
They were literally attacked by Hamas just a year ago. And have been attacked multiple times over the last 75 years by Palestinian / Arab coalitions and terrorist groups from Palestine.
rowida_00@reddit
Are you people seriously ignoring this decades long brutal military occupation like it doesn’t even exist?! Do you even know how Israel was created in the first place? How they’ve used terrorism to facilitate the establishment of their settler colonial state? You’re quite literally defending an apartheid
BehemothDeTerre@reddit
You're quite literally defending terrorism.
rowida_00@reddit
By acknowledging that Israel has been occupying Palestinian Territories and subjugating them for decades? Wow! You guys are hopeless.
Gogetablade@reddit
Again you are missing the point here. Ukraine has never attacked Russia. Taiwan has never attacked China.
Palestine has attacked Israel. Multiple times. And they did so before the occupation started.
rowida_00@reddit
Again, you’re missing the point. Palestinians were ethnically cleansed from their lands and 400 of their villages and towns were wiped out of existence to pave way for settler colonialists only to be subsequently placed under a brutal occupation less than 2 decades later.
Gogetablade@reddit
Yes they were Nakba’d (which I don’t condone) after the Arab League rejected the two state solution put forth by the UN and announced their intentions for war. You understand this right?
As a parallel, after the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor, FDR (who is considered one of the great US presidents) put Japanese Americans in internment camps. That doesn’t make it morally right, but the point is that wartime exigencies make people take drastic measures that they might not otherwise take.
So, again, the Israel situation is not comparable to the China or Russia situation. They had valid and credible security concerns because they were, in fact, attacked.
rowida_00@reddit
The is a copy of the Woodhead commission report released in October 1938, which includes the Zionist Congress Commission Resolution (their official response to the Peel compassion). Refer to page 18, article 27, point 2:
Their position is clearly and unambiguously stipulated in that resolution. They were under the erroneous impression that the entirety of Palestine should have been transformed into a Jewish State. They even went a step further by including Transjordan in their desired state since they spuriously believed they had an inherent divine right to both Palestine and Jordan. So when I tell you they had no intensions whatsoever in sharing Palestine with the Palestinians, that’s not a hyperbole. Nor is it a personal misconception. This is a historical reality that adheres solely to what Zionist leaders have publicly said. It’s all there in black and white. They wanted to transform every inch of Palestine into a Jewish state
We can delineate further on that sentiment by addressing David Ben Gurion’s personal thoughts on the Peel commission in a letter he wrote to his son Amos on October 1937. It reads the following;
He similarly said to those attending the Zionist Congress convened on August 1937;
Zionists never intended to share Palestine with the Palestinians. Which is why they expanded further into the territories designated for the Palestinian state despite agreeing to the UN partition plan, resolution 181, long before Arab states joined the second phase of the war in May 1948. Enough with the justification for this insidious settler colonial project and whitewashing history. “I don’t condone this and that but it’s still justified”.
TheoriginalTonio@reddit
Interesting how it's only ever one side that gets portrayed as the greedy and selfish devils who want all for themselves.
How much of the land do you think did the Arabs want to become an Arab state? What happened immediately after Israel's declaration of Independence should give you a hint.
They never intended to split up the land into different states. That doesn't mean they didn't want to share the unified Jewish state with the local Palestinian Arabs. Which is evident by the fact that they don't even have all the land they wanted and yet still share the portion they do have with over 2 million Arabs who live in Israel as legal citizens.
rowida_00@reddit
They were under the erroneous impression that the entirety of Palestine should have been transformed into a Jewish State.
One side was the actual existing population. The other side was part of a settler colonial project. Gee, I wonder why there isn’t any symmetry.
How much did someone want to keep of their own house? Is that a serious question? Who voluntarily agrees to partition their lands and give it away to settlers?
That’s not entirely true because they deliberately orchestrated ethnic cleansing campaigns designed to replace the existing population with a group of outsiders. And I’m sorry to break it down to you, you’re literally advocating for a settler colonial state. A Jewish state that is created in spite of the existing population which is quite bizarre.
They’ve literally ethnically cleansed 750,000 Palestinians from their lands and the remaining 150,000 Palestinian “citizens of Israel0 faced restrictions on movement, land confiscations, and political repression for 20 years. They were governed by emergency regulations inherited, which allowed for military rule over Arab communities, requiring permits to travel and imposing curfews. Their rights were literally significantly limited compared to Jewish citizens.
TheoriginalTonio@reddit
The population of what exactly? Prior to the increase of jewish immigration, most of the region was a sparesly populated barren wasteland which no one really cared about until the Jews wanted to have a state there.
And that somehow automatically delegitimizes their claim to the land that they not only purchased legally for a pretty penny, but also cultivated and developed it from sodden swamplands and arid sand dunes into fertile vineyards and lush orange groves?
What do you mean by "their own house"?
What exactly makes all of it their house?
Is it the mere circumstance that they already lived somewhere in the broader vincinity of the formerly desolate lands that they happily sold off to the Jews, before those Jews arrived?
You can't "give away" what you never actually owned in the first place. They didn't have any say over the territory when it was ruled by the Ottoman Empire, so why would they suddenly be entitled to sovereign authority over it, once the Ottomans lost it to the Brits?
I know. Absolutely terrible stuff, no doubt about it.
But again, it's always only one side that gets all the blame from you guys. Are we going to pretend like this wasn't a reciprocal relationship of ongoing atrocities conducted by the absolute worst savages on either side?
I mean, you just need to actually read the article you've linked. The first sentence under 'main occurrances':
That seems like a pretty significant part of the story, doesn't it?
Any examples or proof for that?
Could you define what you mean by "settler colonial state"?
How would that be any more bizarre than the creation of an "Arab state" with Palestinian Arab majority in spite of the existing Jewish population in the the tiny area that make up the Jewish ancestral home land? Especially considering the number and sizes of the Arab states that already exist everywhere around it.
Well, what are you gonna do with a population of 750K Arabs when you are literally at war with the entire Arab world? Seems like an intolerable security risk and potential existential threat to have that many people with a likely allegiance to the enemy forces already within your borders.
You basically have only 3 choices:
Try to detain them all while also fighting off multiple invading armies simultaneously.
Kill them all as fast as possible.
Or you simply make them leave.
Do you have any better ideas for that situation?
Oh and by the way, after the Nakbar, Israel's enemies had to make sure that they won't get to claim the moral high ground over the Jews either, so they responded to it by ethnically cleansing 900,000 Jews from the entire Muslim world as well (even though they didn't face any similar existential threat by them at all).
Most of those Jews from Yemen, Syria, Libya, Iraq etc. had to flee to the literal only country in the world that would take them.
Now you go and tell them that this country is illegitimate and should be abolished and replaced with yet another Arabic Muslim nation instead. I'll bet they're already hyped about that idea.
rowida_00@reddit
You’ve literally pulled out every blatant lie from the quintessential hasbara text book, it’s astonishing. “Palestine was destitute, it was sparsely populated, it was filled with swaps cultivated by Zionists”. What sort of bizarre historical negationism is this?
Jews have consistently constituted a minority in Palestine for centuries. The overwhelming majority were Palestinian Muslim arabs. That’s the demographics of that region when European nationals started flowing into Palestine setting up their ‘Jewish Colonial Trust’ in (1898). The ‘Colonization Commission’ in (1898). The ‘Jewish National Fund’ in (1901) and the ‘Palestine Office’ in (1908). As part of their settler colonial project.
The idea of an “empty land” was a political and ideological tool to frame Zionist settlement as a civilizing mission, ignoring the existing Palestinian population and their connection to the land. That’s precisely the outrageous lie you’re currently propagating to negate the existence of a Palestinian identity. Many early Zionist leaders, including Ahad Ha’am, acknowledged that Palestine was already populated and that the notion of an uninhabited land was a myth. Historical records, travel accounts, and Ottoman-era documents show that Palestine was inhabited, with a functioning society, agriculture, trade, and cultural life long before Zionist settlement.
Land had cities like Jerusalem, Jaffa, Haifa, and Nablus, with thriving economies and diverse communities literally existed in that “desolate” land you’re referring to. The rural areas had extensive agriculture, including citrus groves, olive trees, and wheat fields. The Ottoman Empire conducted land censuses and taxation, proving that people were living and working on the land.
The Brits never owned the land. Have you ever read what the mandate extended to the British under the League of Nations?
So they had no right to give away lands that didn’t belong to them. And they also recognized that relatity when they passed the White Paper policy in 1939.
Remember the Arabs? The actual existing population that has lived there for centuries with a clear sense of continuity? They didn’t travel to Palestine in ships, unlike European nationals.
Which brings me back to the point I’ve mentioned earlier.
The Transfer Committee?
Lyyda and Ramle?!
We’ve already established that those Jews were a minority. At the time of Israel’s creation after several waves of European migrations they still constituted a mere third of the population. And those European nationals who had no affiliation to Palestine were mere colonizers. It’s literally no different from the French Société Générale Algérienne (1865) that acquired and distributed lands for French settlers in Algeria. Arguing that settlers are entitled to Palestine because some Jews lived there 3000 years ago is not a serious argument.
Justifying ethnic cleansing and the depopulation of an entire existing population?! Arguing with this kind of despicable mindset is categorically pointless.
Disgusting.
Gogetablade@reddit
None of this is relevant. A two state solution was put forth. Israel accepted it. The Arabs did not. That’s the unambiguous reality. The Balfour Declaration has no bearing on this.
You’re trying to play out highly speculative alternative timelines that did not happen as if they were truth.
20% of Israeli citizens today are Arab and live there happily which blatantly contradicts the statements you’ve cited about them not wanting to “share” the land.
Lastly, “Zionists” are not a monolith. Many nationalist movements organically sprung from the decay of the Ottoman Empire. The Armenian, Kurd, and Jewish nationalist movements some of the notable ones. Jewish nationalist sentiment pre-dates the founder of Zionism. Napoleon Bonaparte, for example, intended on creating a Jewish state in Palestine as early as the 18th century before being repelled at Haifa.
rowida_00@reddit
There’s nothing speculative about what I’ve mentioned. Historical records are not disputable and if you feebly attempt to so much as negate them, that would constitute historical negationism.
You keep mentioning “attacks” before the occupation as it justifies it. But that’s where you’re categorically wrong. So let’s address the facts here. Zionists were literally establishing colonies under the guise of the Jewish colonization association and yet, Palestinians were suppose to sit back and watch their entire territories being transformed into a Jewish homeland without fighting back. The entire Zionist Congress was dominated by Ashkenazi Jews who had no affiliation to Palestine. That’s a fact. Those are the ones who created Israel. No Mizrahi Jews.
Weizmann, Israel’s first president and the man who secured the Balfour declaration, wrote to the British government in 1922 asking for clarification on the future of Palestine following the San Remo conference, which had placed Palestine under British mandate. He expressed the desire for a Jewish national home that would eventually become a Jewish state staying;
So what are we denying here? What the hell are you denying?
Gogetablade@reddit
It’s speculative because it didn’t happen and politics doesn’t work the way you think it does.
For example, Lyndon B Johnson was a massive racist. There are so many documents and quotes of him saying terrible things about black people. And, yet, he passed the momentous Civil Rights Act! If he had died before passing it, people like you would read those statements and conclude “see he was a racist and would have never actually passed it!” Yet, we know that’s not the case.
I don’t think it’s a question that history could have / would have turned out differently if the Arab side would have accepted the UN partition.
I keep mentioning attacks because that literally what happened. It’s not a question of opinion. It’s fact. As soon as Israel declared statehood, Arab nations declared war on them. Then they declared war again in the 1967. And then more wars after that.
Whether you think those attacks are “justified” or not isn’t relevant to the question of whether those attacks were real and cause for security concern. Right?
rowida_00@reddit
What didn’t happen? What part are you denying exactly?
And that is relevant to the policies, resolutions and mandates pursed by the Zionist leadership how exactly? How can you sit there and pretend that Zionists didn’t resort to actual terrorism to fulfil the statements made by their own leaders? How can any deny this factual reality? This is really not open to interpretation.
I don’t think it would have changed because Zionist terrorism began before the UN partition plan and was sustained long after that.
And Plan Dalet came before Arab countries fought Israel. That’s also a fact of life. It’s not a matter of opinion. Deir Yassin Massacre happened before Arab countries even joined the fight.
Is there an end to your factual distortion? The war of 1967 was instigated by Israel! What sort of blatant lies are these.
Non of the attacks happened in a vacuum. That’s the point.
Gogetablade@reddit
>> What didn’t happen? What part are you denying exactly?
"Zionists" taking all the land for themselves without provocation. Instead, Arabs waged war and rejected the peaceful partition plan which lead to the Nakba.
>> And that is relevant to the policies, resolutions and mandates pursed by the Zionist leadership how exactly? How can you sit there and pretend that Zionists didn’t resort to actual terrorism to fulfil the statements made by their own leaders? How can any deny this factual reality? This is really not open to interpretation.
Again, we don't know what would have happened had the Arabs accepted the UN solution.
Many experts reason that the Nakba would have either been avoided entirely OR, at the very least, happened on a smaller scale. Without the invasion by Arab forces, it is unlikely that there would have been the political will to carry it out otherwise (regardless of what any of these Zionist leaders may have personally felt!). You seem unable to grasp this very basic political concept.
>> I don’t think it would have changed because Zionist terrorism began before the UN partition plan and was sustained long after that.
I disagree. But we'll never know. So you can't act like it's reality because it didn't happen.
>> And Plan Dalet came before Arab countries fought Israel. That’s also a fact of life. It’s not a matter of opinion. Deir Yassin Massacre happened before Arab countries even joined the fight.
This is false. That plan was formalized shortly before 1948.
>> Is there an end to your factual distortion? The war of 1967 was instigated by Israel! What sort of blatant lies are these.
It was not "instigated" by Israel. Egypt was building up it's military presence along the border and saber-rattling. Intelligence reports all-but-confirmed they were gearing up to attack. Other events (like the nationalization of the Suez Canal) were seen as acts of war. It was even Morocco that allegedly tipped the Israeli's off to the state of Egypt's mlitarization.
>> Non of the attacks happened in a vacuum. That’s the point.
Your argument is basically "they deserve to be attacked therefore their concerns about being attacked are meaningless". Which makes no sense.
BehemothDeTerre@reddit
Yes, there is no hope left that you guys will ever have a semblance of humanity. You're sociopaths.
Gogetablade@reddit
You do realize that Egypt and Jordan occupied Palestine up until 1967? It wasn’t Israel.
By the time Israel came to occupy Palestine, multiple wars between them had already been fought.
I’m not defending the Apartheid situation. All I am saying, matter of factly, is that Israel has valid security concerns informed by actual conflict with Palestine that Russia and China do not have with Ukraine and Taiwan, respectively.
rowida_00@reddit
You do realize that non of what you’re saying changes the fact that in accordance to international law, the West Bank and Gaza have been under occupation since 1967? And that those territories are considered occupied Palestinian Territories? And that this occupation has been rendered unlawful and illegal as per the ICJ ruling? And that Israel’s de facto annexation is central for the illegality of that occupation?
And if you’d like to go back in time, why not address the historical context of Zionist terrorism that facilitated the creation of their settler colonial state? Or the Nakba? Or the land theft? Or the forcible expulsion of an existing population?
Gogetablade@reddit
Yes, Palestine is occupied. Yes, it’s (likely) illegal now (although it wasn’t when it first became occupied by Israel according to international law experts). Yes, that occupation has turned brutal as of late in particular after the Second Intifada.
However, NONE of that is relevant to my original point that the Israel situation is materially different than either the Russia or China situation.
Taiwan has never waged war on China. Ukraine has never waged war on Russia.
Palestine, however, has waged war on Israel and it has done so before Israel even occupied it.
Israel’s security concerns are validated and borne out through actual experience whereas Russia / China’s are completely fabricated.
rowida_00@reddit
It’s profoundly different. What Israel has done is light years worse than what China or Russia is capable of doing. There’s no symmetry, I agree. Zionism was always a settler colonial project designed to create a state of their own on lands that doesn’t belong to them, by means of sheer terrorism and ethnic cleansing.
The entire world adheres to the one China policy so I’m not entirely sure why the hell you’re talking about Taiwan.
Gogetablade@reddit
Again. None of what you are saying is relevant.
Just answer the question simply. Has Palestine attacked Israel before? Has Ukraine attacked Russia before? Has Taiwan attacked China before?
rowida_00@reddit
Nothing that doesn’t augment your rhetoric is relevant. We’ve already established that fact.
Why the hell are you mentioning Taiwan when the entire world doesn’t consider Taiwan an independent state? More countries recognize Palestine as an independent state than they do with Taiwan. Everyone consciously and deliberately adheres to the one China policy. So anything that contradicts that policy will be perceived as a threat. It’s that simple. What’s there to discuss?
And Israel has no valid security concerns as a settler colonial apartheid state that continues to maintain an unlawful brutal occupation, that’s not comparable to anything anyone is doing.
Gogetablade@reddit
Again. You keep going off on tangents.
More countries don’t recognize Taiwan because they don’t want to piss China off. This should be obvious. It’s not because of a lack of legitimacy (as you seem to be implying). It simple geopolitics. Nothing more.
And, again, even if you want to claim Israel is an “illegal settler colonial apartheid state”, that didn’t happen until AFTER multiple wars and conflicts started by Palestine / Arab nations.
When I say Israel’s security concerns are “valid”, all I am saying that they are real. Like you can’t even argue it because it literally has happened multiple times in history already. The same can’t be said for Russia or China.
rowida_00@reddit
Whether they don’t want to piss off China is irrelevant the fact that everyone adheres to the one China policy. It’s that simple. The fact that this decision is geopolitically driven is immaterial to its legitimacy or applicability.
Israel’s security concerns don’t supersede Palestinians right to self determination! You need to come to terms with this reality. Peace can never be materialized as long as this brutal military occupation is maintained. Address the root cause and then follow through with the symptoms. You can’t cage people in an institutionalized system of apartheid and expect for peace to reign. That’s as senseless proposition.
Gogetablade@reddit
Then why did you bring it up? lol. I didn’t bring it up.
I’m not arguing one way or another for the Israel-Palestine conflict. Because it’s not relevant to the question of whether their security concerns are valid.
They can be valid AND they can be wrong for their occupation of Palestine. It’s not mutually exclusive.
All I am saying is that their security concerns are real (unlike Russias and China’s).
rowida_00@reddit
Did I bring up why people follow the one China policy? No, that was you. I brought up the one China policy itself to make it clear that your point on China is immaterial since everyone adheres to the one China policy. You can’t claim their concerns aren’t real when they’re pretty much vindicated by a policy recognized by everyone.
As for the occupation, it weakens their security concerns. It works against their argument, it doesn’t benefit their cause in any tangible way because everyone will hold them accountable for the predicament they’re in today. They’re the only country that creates buffer zones for the so-called buffer zones they’ve illegally occupied in several countries, not just the one.
Gogetablade@reddit
I did not bring up the China policy. You must be thinking of someone else. Reread the thread.
All I said was the fact that more countries recognize Palestine vs Taiwan doesn’t mean anything from a legitimacy perspective. It’s purely geopolitical theater and nothing more.
It doesn’t weaken their security concerns. Because, as I’ve stated multiple times already, Israel was attacked by Palestine multiple times before the occupation. Whatever they are doing today doesn’t retroactively change history.
rowida_00@reddit
I brought up the one China policy. I literally just said that. But I also said you were the one who spoke about why countries recognize the one China policy saying that “they don’t want piss off china” which is irrelevant to the policy’s applicability and existence. Talking about China is quite senselessly because a policy that negates Taiwan’s independence literally exists and the entire world adheres to it. It’s that simple. Trying to work against that policy or violating it is in and of itself a threat to China.
chillichampion@reddit
Ukraine invaded Iraq along with the US. It doesn’t seem to mind invading other countries, it shouldn’t have a problem when other countries invade yours.
gniyrtnopeek@reddit
Saddam’s Iraq was a terrorist dictatorship. Ukraine is a democracy. Fuck off and die, Putin bot.
chillichampion@reddit
And Ukraine is a Nazi regime according to Russia. If you think you can invade other countries based on your feelings, don’t be surprised when your enemies do the same.
Walker_352@reddit
Oh saddam was a dictator? The same Saddam who was a us ally and such a good friend he was given the key to an american city? The saddam us helped invade iran? The saddam us helped gas Iranians and iraqis? That saddam? Funny how he only became a bad guy when it was convenient.
prostagma@reddit
Ignoring all the other parts of this conversation, but is anyon3 really arguing that the invasion of Iraq was justified?
Gogetablade@reddit
Iraq is not Russia. What’s your point?
SurturOfMuspelheim@reddit
Lmao classic American take.
"These guys have been defending themselves from their oppressors for 75 years, they are ebil!"
Gogetablade@reddit
Oppressors? Egypt and Jordan occupied Palestine from 1948 to 1967. Before that it was the British. Before that, it was the Ottoman Empire.
Israel was attacked multiple times by Palestine and Arab forces before 1967.
Significant-Bother49@reddit
Ah yes, we all remember when Ukraine fired tens of thousands of rockets at Russian civilians, blew up buses and cafes, murdered the Russian Olympics Team, swore to not stop until Russia was destroyed and all Russians were driven out. Or when Taiwan invaded China, murdering and kidnapping as many civilians as they could. And let’s not forget how Taiwan pays lifelong pensions for any of their people who murder Chinese civilians.
Wait…what’s that? Neither Ukraine nor Taiwan did any of those things? Weird…
Sufficient_astrobird@reddit
Israel has been occupying Palestine and has violated apartheid laws and racial segregation since 1960s
https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/07/experts-hail-icj-declaration-illegality-israels-presence-occupied
The landmark ruling of 19 July 2024 declared that Israel’s occupation of the Gaza strip and the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, is unlawful, along with the associated settlement regime, annexation and use of natural resources. The Court added that Israel’s legislation and measures violate the international prohibition on racial segregation and apartheid. The ICJ mandated Israel to end its occupation, dismantle its settlements, provide full reparations to Palestinian victims and facilitate the return of displaced people.
If you think apartheid,occupation and racial segregation doesn’t warrant tens of thousands rockets fired into your country then I don’t know what does
Can you please tell me what does if all these war crimes do not allow you to fire rockets?
Significant-Bother49@reddit
Yeah, that's bullshit. Gaza has a blockade because they have been firing rockets nonstop at Israel ever since Israel pulled out. If they want the blockade to end they just have to stop trying to destroy Israel. Calling it "apartheid" to stop a hostile foreign entity from attacking your civilians is ridiculous.
Likewise, the security measures in the West Bank are because of the terrorist attacks against Israeli citizens. And they are not racial in origin or application, as Israel is 20% Arab and the rules apply based on nationality. Not race, not religion
So it isn't apartheid, that is just fucking stupid. And occupation? In 1948 Israel accepted the partition, where everyone would live on the land they owned (remember that we Jews *BOUGHT* land to live on). Israel was to be 50% Jewish, with the land being 60% desert. The Arabs refused, launched a war of extermination against Israel (their words!) and lost.
Israel has grown in size, yes. Everytime after they were attacked. Even East Jerusalem was taken from Jordan, who owned the land, and they formally withdrew their claim to it. That's not occupation, unless you consider Jordan to have been occupying Palestine. And even with Areas A, B and C in the West Bank, that is all done via agreement with the PLO...who given the Matyr's Fund where they pay their people to murder Jews, there isn't an occupation.
And then *people like you* go "Huh...how dare those Jews buy land and want to live without Dhimmi Law (actual apartheid). They deserved to be massacred for that! And how dare they accept a partition that would leave Israel be 50% Jewish, didn't include Jerusalem, and was mostly desert. They deserved a second holocaust for that! And how dare they keep winning defensive wars against their neighbors? There should be no blockade on Gaza! They should be allowed to import all of the weapons they want to murder Israelis like they shout that they want to do. Stopping them is apartheid! And Israel should allow their buses and cafes to explode and terrorism to reign supreme. They deserve it for not letting the Palestinians drive them into the sea. Stopping Israeli civilians from being murdered is apartheid!"
"If you think apartheid,occupation and racial segregation doesn’t warrant tens of thousands rockets fired into your country then I don’t know what does"
You fucking make me sick.
Hyndis@reddit
Slight point of order -- it was shootings, stabbings, and bombing busses and restaurants first. Thats what prompted Israel to build the wall.
After Hamas could not attack Israel directly it started building rockets to shoot over the wall.
Same deal with Egypt. First it was bombings and shootings overland into Egypt. Egypt build a wall, and Hamas dug tunnels under Egypt's wall. Egypt doesn't fuck around, it countered by flooding Hamas' tunnels, and anyone in them likely drowned.
Significant-Bother49@reddit
Point of order well taken. But I wonder, these people...when will they start calling Egypt and Apartheid state?
Maardten@reddit
Israel has an apartheid state because it has laws that are explicitly discriminatory towards non-jewish citizens.
Can you send me a couple of examples of laws in Egypt that discriminate against their own citizens based on their ethnicity?
SamuelClemmens@reddit
Are... are you serious?
Did you forget the copts exist? Or how Egypt treats black citizens?
Significant-Bother49@reddit
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Israel
“Ethnic and religious minorities have full voting rights in Israel and are entitled to government benefits under various laws. Israel’s Employment Law (1988) prohibits discrimination–in hiring, working conditions, promotion, professional training or studies, discharge or severance pay, and benefits and payments provided for employees in connection with their retirement from employment–due to race, religion, nationality, and land of origin, among other reasons”
Apartheid! Oh wait…no? So what’s the issue?
“Palestinian citizens of Israel employed as contractors in renovations at Israeli educational institutions are subject to limitations which Jewish Israelis are not subject to. This includes the requiring the contractor to hire an armed security guard on the premises of the work site at their own expense.”
I agree it shouldn’t be at their expense but that is hardly apartheid.
“According to section 15 of the States Civil Service [appointments], Israeli citizens who are female, disabled, or of Arab or black African origin are entitled to affirmative action in the civil service.[122] Israeli citizens of Arab or black African origin, or with disabilities, are furthermore entitled to affirmative action with regard to university and college admission, and are entitled to full tuition scholarships by the state.”
What’s that? Affirmative action for Arabs? Is this apartheid then against Jews?
“Prohibition of Discrimination in Products, Services and Entry into Places of Entertainment and Public Places Law forbids those who operate public places, or provide services or products, to discriminate because of race, religion, nationality, and land of origin, among other reasons. According to the 2010 US Department of State’s Country Reports on Human Rights Practices for Israel and the Occupied Territories, Israeli law prohibits discrimination on the basis of race, and the government effectively enforced these prohibitions”
Wow. Such apartheid. /s
Is Israel perfect? No. But calling the above apartheid is hilarious.
———
Egypt
https://www.newarab.com/features/no-recognition-no-rights-palestinians-egypt?amp
“Today, they are marginalised and denied basic rights such as free education and healthcare, and their work rights are heavily restricted, despite having been residents in Egypt for decades.”
https://academic.oup.com/rsq/article-abstract/28/2-3/531/1584677?redirectedFrom=PDF
“Thousands of vulnerable young Palestinians are “illegal” despite having been born in Egypt. Unable to leave with any confidence of being allowed to return, they live in constant fear of discovery. As the third or fourth post-nakba generation, they have minimal knowledge of Palestine or connection to traditional kin networks. State policies have left them in limbo, denying them both rights and identity.”
Egypt made it so that Palestinians cannot become citizens even by being born in Egypt or by naturalization. ———
Bonus points for Lebanon
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinians_in_Lebanon
“Palestinians in Lebanon are refugees and their descendants, who have been barred from naturalisation, retaining stateless refugee status. Palestinians in Lebanon, including children of Lebanese mothers and Palestinian fathers, face systemic discrimination, with limited access to employment and social services.[4] While some Palestinian Christians, such as women who gained citizenship through marriage to Lebanese nationals, have been naturalized, the state continues to deny citizenship to others.”
“They are also legally barred from owning property[8] or entering a list of desirable occupations.[9] Employment requires a government-issued work permit, and, according to the New York Times in 2011, although “Lebanon hands out and renews hundreds of thousands of work permits every year to people from Africa, Asia and other Arab countries... until now, only a handful have been given” to Palestinians.”
———
I find it hilarious that with the above Israel is called “apartheid” when it has affirmative action for Arabs and anti discrimination laws, while critics are silent on Egypt and Lebanon.
Maardten@reddit
Do Palestinians in illegal settlements get to vote in Israeli elections?
Do arab Israeli’s have the same rights of family reunion as jewish Israeli’s?
Do jewish Israeli’s benefit from legal protections that are not available to non-jewish citizens?
Significant-Bother49@reddit
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_ of_return
“Finland edit People of Finnish origin may receive citizenship by declaration, which is faster and cheaper than naturalization and has fewer requirements. ”
Finland is now apartheid.
“Germany edit See also: German Citizenship Project German law allows (1) people descending from German nationals of any ethnicity or (2) people of ethnic German descent and living in countries of the former Warsaw Pact (as well as Yugoslavia) the right to “return” to Germany and (“re”)claim German citizenship”
Germany is now apartheid.
“Ireland edit Present Irish nationality law states that any person with a grandparent born on the island of Ireland can claim Irish nationality by enrollment in the Foreign Births Register. Additionally, the law permits the Minister of Justice to waive the residency requirements for naturalization for a person of “Irish descent or Irish associations”.”
Ireland is now apartheid. And the list goes on and on and on.
So either declare half the world apartheid or admit that Israel’s right of return isn’t.
As for legal protections, see what I posted above. Arab citizens of Israel are protected and even get affirmative action. Those who are not citizens do not. Just like every other country on earth.
However…After annexing East Jerusalem in 1967, Israel offered Israeli citizenship to its Arab residents, but most declined and were instead granted permanent resident status.
This is directly opposed to how Egypt and Lebanon acted. Notice how Israel offered citizenship, and thus full protection of the law? And when most refused they were instead made permanent residents, with the rights that affords?
As always, the only way to attack Israel is to have double standards. But for pro Palestinians, what would they have left if they gave up hypocrisy?
Maardten@reddit
The 'or' in this sentence completely dismantles your argument.
Same for Ireland, it counts for all Irish nationals, not just cathoic ones. Same for Finland, people of Finnish origin doesn't say anything about their ethnicity or religion.
All your arguments are invalid.
So, do Palestinians in illegal settlements have the right to vote in Israeli elections?
Significant-Bother49@reddit
Alright so just Finland, right?. And most others on that list. You call those apartheid? No…? What’s that, you just ignore whatever you don’t like?
And even with the “or” it would still discriminate against Palestinians if adopted by Israel and you’d call it apartheid. Which is part of why your ilk is so funny.
And again Israel offers citizenship to those living in areas annexed. Those who don’t accept it are not citizens.
Or do you mean illegal settlements? Because those are…illegal and not part of Israel. Unless you are asking Israel to annex those areas and offer citizenship?
Or do you want Israel to give full legal rights to non citizens? Something not asked of any country in the world?
Maardten@reddit
I replied on your points at first but later realized that all of them were red herrings and weren't actually related to any of the points I made, so I edited my comment to reflect that.
Israeli's in illegal settlements have the right to vote in Israeli elections, Palestinians do not, this is apartheid.
No I want Israel to leave non-citizens outside of Israel alone and stop annexing their lands.
Significant-Bother49@reddit
Apartheid to give non Jews affirmative action and free college? Glad you agree on that.
And glad to see you call Egypt, Lebanon and Finland apartheid countries.
I mean, otherwise you’d just be a hypocrite.
Maardten@reddit
You can try and draw false equivalencies all you want, but you and I both know that you are being dishonest.
Significant-Bother49@reddit
Israel has equality under the law for all of its citizens. The law of return, for example, is no different that many other countries having their own immigration policies. Again, take Finland as an example. Your ilk never criticize them. Nor do you criticize Egypt or Lebanon which actually have apartheid. Nor the PLO who have made it a crime to sell land to a jew.
Because as always if pro Palestinians didn’t have double standards then they’d have no standards at all.
Fantastic-String5820@reddit
Oy it's tough always being the victim am I right?
Significant-Bother49@reddit
It’s tough to have idiots spout bullshit nonstop, spreading lies. But if pro Palestinians were stopped from doing that then they’d need to take a vow of silence.
Fantastic-String5820@reddit
I bet you cry pogrom for getting kicked out of a bar 🤣
Significant-Bother49@reddit
Kicked out of Walmart? The fuck you talking about? If anyone is kicked out of a store based upon race or religion then that would be fucked yo. But yeah…you seem like the kind of person who laughs at pogroms. Or would take part in one.
Fantastic-String5820@reddit
https://imgur.com/GuJdzV0
Significant-Bother49@reddit
Ah yes, blaming Jews for antisemitism existing. Very on brand for you. I hope someday you become a better person.
Fantastic-String5820@reddit
"Blaming Germans for anti-german sentiment? How dare you"
- you in 1944 🤣
Significant-Bother49@reddit
There is so much wrong with your statement…but to understand why you’d need to have two things that you seem to lack: intelligence and a soul.
Just like how you post about shooting pregnant women for having Hungarian children, go ahead and keep practicing holocaust inversion and laughing about antisemitism. To anyone who isn’t a ghoul, all you are doing is showing the world your true nature. And no, that is not a compliment.
Fantastic-String5820@reddit
Oy I don't appreciate your blood libel
Maardten@reddit
You keep blabbing about the law of return, which is not the same as the right to family reunion.
You can stop with your red herrings and false equivalences, I'm not gonna put anymore effort in this conversation because you are extremely dense at best, and more likely just being dishonest.
Hyndis@reddit
Its remarkable how Egypt gets ignored, isn't it?
Even if Hamas had the worst relations in the world with Israel, they could still have had a totally open border with Egypt for all manner of trade.
Its like Egypt doesn't even exist. Its an extremely inconvenient fact thats ignored.
Maardten@reddit
Egypt doesn't have half a million settlers colonizing Palestine, also Egypt hasn't been continually annexing parts of Palestinian lands for over half a century.
Toke27@reddit
Egyptians annexed Palestinian lands for much longer than that (1174-1517 Ayyubid Khalifate). Then it was annexed by Turks for 400 years (Ottoman Empire) until WW1. Of course it was a while ago and Palestinians as an ethno-national identity didn't exist before around 1960.
Maardten@reddit
Yeah mate I think you understand that your 500+ year old example isn't all that relevant when Israël is annexing Palestinian land all day every day in current times.
Sufficient_astrobird@reddit
https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/07/experts-hail-icj-declaration-illegality-israels-presence-occupied
The landmark ruling of 19 July 2024 declared that Israel’s occupation of the Gaza strip and the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, is unlawful, along with the associated settlement regime, annexation and use of natural resources. The Court added that Israel’s legislation and measures violate the international prohibition on racial segregation and apartheid. The ICJ mandated Israel to end its occupation, dismantle its settlements, provide full reparations to Palestinian victims and facilitate the return of displaced people.
I make you sick because I’m following international law?
You’re the one who says it’s not apartheid yet the icj says otherwise
I think the person who lies to justify apartheid racial segregation unlawful occupation should make everybody sick don’t you agree not the person following international law
Significant-Bother49@reddit
I say it is not apartheid because it isn’t based on race. It is based on nationality and stopping attacks against Israeli citizens (including Arab citizens).
Are you the kind of idiot who sees the UN, from 2015 through 2023, adopt 154 resolutions against Israel and 71 against ALL other countries and go “yeah that make sense?”
Apartheid are laws against one racial group to benefit another. The embargo on Gaza and security measures on the WB are not based on race and they are to stop ongoing attacks.
The UN can beat its chest and change definitions all they want.
But what’s the point? You keep making the “appeal to authority” fallacy, which is especially hilarious as the authority is staggeringly anti Israel in its bias. So it makes sense that all you can do is parrot the bullshit ruling while offering nothing to support your argument besides that others said so.
I’m not sure what the right word for that is. Sad? Pathetic? Eh. Either way, it works.
Fantastic-String5820@reddit
Why do you even care enough to deny it's apartheid?
You guys never cared when you were balls deep in supporting South Africa, alongside Israel lmao, what are the odds.
But at least you guys give climate change a silver lining, it's gonna be real tragic when Israel is too inhospitable for human life at the end of the century
Significant-Bother49@reddit
Why do I care when fake Israelis (ie “you guys”) spread lies? Change words to spread libel?
Why do you even care enough to deny that you are a Nazi? You never cared when you were balls deep in supporting Hamas.
Ah, why do I bother replying to mouth breathers like you?
Fantastic-String5820@reddit
Baby you think I care when some jewish supremacist shitheel calls me a nazi? What's next, you're gonna act like anti german sentiment was the worst part of WW2?
Seriously tho, will it be worth it when Israel is no longer habitable? I'm sure you'll have no problem finding somewhere to take you 🥲
Significant-Bother49@reddit
You don’t care about being called one because that’s what you are. You want Jews to be back in exile? Happy to say that Nazis like you will never see it. Get fucked.
Fantastic-String5820@reddit
Cmon Mileikowsky, do you think you'll be allowed to take your nukes with you?
🤣
Sufficient_astrobird@reddit
They’re against Israel because Israel denies Palestinians their sovereign rights
Illegal settlements have been built since 1967 so why shouldn’t resolutions be adopted against them?
I guess it’s the word of some random on the internet vs the icj I tend to think everyone would believe the icj over you
Why do all pro Israelis say why are you appealing to authority like the world doesn’t work through laws?
If somebody killed your family member or stole your home and the court rules it’s your right for reparations Then everybody is telling you why are you appealing to authority for
What are you going to tell them?
Significant-Bother49@reddit
This is so fucking funny. I ask you a simple question. How is the Gaza blockade apartheid without appealing to authority. And your response? To justify Israel having more resolutions than the entire world combined because of fucking settlements?
And “if someone killed your family member or stole your home” mother fucker, we Jews BOUGHT LAND and we were the ones massacred for that. God such bullshit from you. Not only do you run like a little bitch from your apartheid claim (which I note again you still can’t answer) but you try to change the topic and still fall on your face.
Seriously, is your head that far up your own ass that you can’t see how pathetic that is?
l339@reddit
Man did not expect to find a Nazi like you here in the comments, especially one that is from North America and not even Israeli lmao
Significant-Bother49@reddit
Ah yes, calling Jews Nazis. So classy! Go ahead and keep calling for us Jews to be murdered, while calling people who are against us being murdered Nazis.
So, tell me...do you do this because you are too stupid to know better? Or do you do this because you are evil? Or perhaps you are both stupid AND evil? Given your post I'm going to assume just that.
ScaryShadowx@reddit
Yeah, those damn slave revolts in America 1800s. Just like those ungrateful slaves, those dam lesser Palestians know their place and accept their yearly culling by Israeli forces and land occupation by settlers.
rowida_00@reddit
Ah yes, this only exists in the real world but in the minds of Zionists!
Significant-Bother49@reddit
Yes yes, I know. Arabs should be allowed to keep launching war after war of extermination against Israel without consequence. Israel should keep borders that can barely be defended and should wait patiently while their enemies rearm for the next war of extermination. To have an embargo against a foreign entity that fires tens of thousands of rockets at their civilians is unacceptable! It must end immediately so that it can be easier for Israel to be destroyed and the Jews driven into the sea.
Perhaps the UN can continue to have more resolutions against Israel than the rest of the world combined this year, just like as they have done year after year after year? That'll show that they are unbiased concerning Israel, right?
Mundane_Emu8921@reddit
Well Taiwan has no international legitimacy.
It’s pretty funny how a conflict that has existed since 1949 is now suddenly appearing again in the West. Lol.
Taiwan isn’t recognized as a real country.
Everyone sees it as the result of an unfinished civil war.
Which it is. Taiwan calls itself the Republic of China because nationalist forces fled the mainland after losing to the communists.
SurturOfMuspelheim@reddit
Not even close to the same. Taiwan (through the US) literally bullies China. Taiwan is a part of China, legally. The US and most of the world agree.
loggy_sci@reddit
Taiwan bullies China? Lmao
SurturOfMuspelheim@reddit
(through the US)
Look, I get it, no one in the US can read, but come on..
loggy_sci@reddit
Yes I understood your comment I just think it is laughable.
TheoriginalTonio@reddit
Wrong. Mainland China is actually a part of Taiwan (aka the original 'Republic of China') that is currently under communist occupation since 1949.
SurturOfMuspelheim@reddit
Lmao. That's one way to support fascism.
Now, tell me, which governments agree with you?
TheoriginalTonio@reddit
The Chinese government. (The real one, not the evil knock-off on the continental side,)
SurturOfMuspelheim@reddit
Lol.
CamisaMalva@reddit
Comparing "Palestine" to the likes of Ukraine and Taiwan is just factually wrong, man.
Even the West Bank's acting government suspended elections indefinitely because "having an independent army" in that context just means people can decide to go down the same path as Palestinians in Gaza during 2005.
Neither Ukrainians nor the Taiwanese chose to this kind of conflict, for one.
CamisaMalva@reddit
Comparing "Palestine" to the likes of Ukraine and Taiwan is just factually wrong, man.
Even the West Bank's acting government suspended elections indefinitely because "having an independent army" in that context just means people can decide to go down the same path as Palestinians in Gaza during 2005.
Neither Ukrainians nor the Taiwanese chose to this kind of conflict, for one.
CommanderGumball@reddit
Which is extra hilarious because it's kind of the other way around.
Russia gets its name from The Kievan Rus.
Without Kiev, they're... Muscovy.
kirime@reddit
Which is completely wrong, you should at least read some history.
Russia gets its name from the people of Rus', which were Varangians (Norsemen), and the Russian history traditionally begins in year 862 in Novgorod with the calling of Rurik and the foundation of his dynasty.
Rurik's descendants then conquered their way south to Kiev and transferred their capital there, but Russia did not originate there and definitely does not gets its name from it.
Nethlem@reddit
For those too lazy to read, here's the Pentagon explaining Russian/European history in a way that has aged like the finest of wines and these days would be considered "Russian disinformation!".
BehemothDeTerre@reddit
Did you mean how Hamas finds it unacceptable for Jews to live?
LawsonTse@reddit
Is he ready to accept the proposed ceasefire when he proposed a whole new list of demands?
Like if you offer to buy my car for 6k would you agree that I'm ready to accept your offer when I turn around and demand 15k?
VintageGriffin@reddit
Two can play the "we agree to a ceasefire but here's a list of conditions that the other side will never accept" game.
Meanwhile the war continues, Kursk is being cleaned up, and Russia is incrementally inching towards accomplishing all of the objectives it set out to do in the first place.
Why should Russia stop when it has the upper hand, without having been given a good reason for it, or appeased in some way?
loggy_sci@reddit
Because of Russia wants a resources deal they need to show they are trustworthy to western investors.
In this instance it is only Russia that is playing games. Ukraine has said they will sign the ceasefire, but since Russia is unwilling to agree they are introducing poison pills into the agreement.
Mundane_Emu8921@reddit
What resource deal?
They don’t want a resource deal dude.
loggy_sci@reddit
Putin went on television and said that Russia wants to work with foreign investors to develop minerals in their stolen territories.
Mundane_Emu8921@reddit
Translation: We are giving them to China.
loggy_sci@reddit
In which case it makes more sense for the US to continue sanctions and make deals with Ukraine
Mundane_Emu8921@reddit
I mean that’s fine.
It’s just that I don’t barest going to get much out of Ukraine:
loggy_sci@reddit
Drunk bot
decimeci@reddit
Russia doesn't need resource deal. That deal is stupid trick fed to masses. Originally Ukraine just planned to use all that potential resources as some bargain with US, when in reality it was never something worth investments and almost impossible given how dangerous place is east Ukraine. And after that clusterfuck at White House every politician started negotiating around that minerals that no one ever cared before war. Russia doesn't need mineral deal it has way more cheaper and easier to develop resources on its own soil. The only thing that Russia really needs is lifting restrictions on oil trade and banks.
loggy_sci@reddit
This is an interesting take given than in reality this is a deal that both Zelensky and Yanukovich tried to make, a deal that the U.S. just pushed Ukraine to sign. Trump turned off aid to Ukraine when they stepped out of line, and turned it right back on when they apologized and complied in order to protect the value of that deal. The war and the resources are connected. Russia countered with an offer to partner with western companies to develop these same resources, and said they want to negotiate directly with the U.S. What do you think those negotiations will be about? Hockey?
This is likely that they want to negotiate with the U.S. about normalizing relations, Ukraine, and resources, each as part of a larger deal.
National-Percentage4@reddit
He has to make these demands. They are impossible for Ukraine hence the ceasefire will not happen. Its pure manipulation. This dude gives so much insight into the depths of the subject.
bluecheese2040@reddit
That makes sense. Russia is making ground atm. We wanted Ukraine to negotiate from a position of power...now Russia is in the power position, which is why we didn't want this...
Power means your voice is louder.
GothicGolem29@reddit
But hopefully if Russia doesnt play ball it will upset Trump and he will aid Ukraine more
chillichampion@reddit
Ukraine’s main drawback is manpower right now. Even if trump sends more aid, they won’t be able to take back occupied territories.
GothicGolem29@reddit
Aid and ammo is still a huge drawback. They could take back significant chunks of territory with proper aid hopefully
chillichampion@reddit
Even with unprecedented support, Ukraine failed to achieve any significant gains in the southern counteroffensive. It looks unlikely that Ukraine can take back the occupied territory.
GothicGolem29@reddit
Ukraine did manage to retake Kherson city and had made a few gains in the east
chillichampion@reddit
That was before Russia mobilised. Ukraine failed to take back any significant territory after that.
GothicGolem29@reddit
It has taken significant territory. Plus it was a partial mobilisation not full mobilisation and I’m not sure that’s changed if Ukraine can take territory
chillichampion@reddit
What territory has Ukraine taken after Kherson? They lost zaporzhia counteroffensive miserably.
GothicGolem29@reddit
Some territories in the east and Kursk
Le_Doctor_Bones@reddit
It is very generous to call the fact that Ukraine still had less military materiel than Russia "Unprecedented support". In terms of artillery shells on the ground, as an example, I have heard "rumours" that the fight has never been closer than it currently is.
bluecheese2040@reddit
That's my hope too. Gotta say...conspiracy bluecheese here....I do wonder if Russia would or could release real or manufactured material on trump if he goes wild on them. Half of America and much of the world would beleive it. Who knows...
GothicGolem29@reddit
Who knows indeed
Nethlem@reddit
Except when Ukraine was in a position of power, having temporary momentum advantage on the battlefield, then the argument suddenly becomes: "Ukraine is winning, we shouldn't negotiate with bullies, keep pressing the advantage until Crimea is taken back by force!".
As was the case in 2022, after Russia was heavily over-extended and hence even agreed to scale back its operations around Kiev, a developement that back then was framed as "Ukraine beat Russia back from Kiev!".
It was also the again the case in 2023 after the Ukrainian summer offensive shifted momentum, and again in 2024 when Ukraine took Kursk, all of these were good opportunities for Ukraine to negotiate, opportunities never taken because negotiations and diplomacy have been permanently made out as "Playing into Putin's hands!"
the-apple-and-omega@reddit
Gotta have more meat for the grinder.
BurialA12@reddit
Even Lindsey "best money we've ever spent" Graham have change tune
Nethlem@reddit
More and more this is getting reminiscent of the Iran-Iraq war, which also happens to be the last conflict to escalate to such a degree.
Back then US officials made similar cynical statements about how useful it was for Muslims to slaughter each other, with not a single American dying, while the West selling weapons to both parties for even more slaughter and profits.
Back then Saddam was also made out as a glorious defender of freedom in the Middle East against them evil commies, our "ally" in the region.
Ultimately that didn't end well for Saddam, nor Iraq, and weirdly enough Ukraine should know about this, yet seems to have forgotten.
saracenraider@reddit
Outside of Kursk, Russia’s offensive has slowed to a crawl and in several key sectors (Pokrovsk and Toretsk), it is Ukraine making ground. This whole claim that Russia is making strong advances within Ukraine at the moment is about two or three months out of date.
bluecheese2040@reddit
No...its not...they took back kursk (the videos feom that are wild)... They make progress in chasiv yar and kupyansk. Ukraine launched s counter attack in toretsk and are doing well. Let's see what happens but thus far the evidence is pretty one sided.
saracenraider@reddit
I did say Kursk aside.
Chasiv Yar progress is literally a block or two and Kupiansk is quite even. On the left side of the Oskil river the Russians have been pushed back a bit and on the right side they’re trading land, with Ukraine and Russia both capturing villages in the last couple of days
Patient-Mulberry-659@reddit
Russia is gaining around 10 square kilometres a day though. Ukraine is not really close to that (outside of Kursk only). If you accept that Suriyak maps are sufficiently neutral
saracenraider@reddit
10 square kilometres per day is absolutely nothing if it is that (what I’ve seen in the past few weeks suggests that is quite optimistic). It’s a few fields. If they’re doing that at great expense that’s the very definition of a pyrrhic victory
Patient-Mulberry-659@reddit
Quoting someone else (based on Suriyak’s maps)
Average daily Russian gains: December 2023 = 3.07km2/day April = 3.77km2/day May = 13.42km2/day June = 5.24km2/day July = 7.29km2/day August = 14.84km2/day (27.82km2/day if you include Kursk) September = 14.07km2/day (25.36km2/day if you include Kursk) October = 18.75km2/day (24.45km2/day if you include Kursk) November = 23.32km2/day (26.75km2/day if you include Kursk) December = 14.29km2/day (17.78km2/day if you include Kursk) January = 11.17km2/day (12.48km2/day if you include Kursk) February = 10.13km2/day (12.49km2/day if you include Kursk) Average daily Ukrainian gains December = 0.15km2/day April = 0.52km2/day May = 0.27km2/day June = 2.08km2/day July = 0.58km2/day August = 0.51km2/day (31.60km2/day if you include Kursk) September = 0.60km2/day (3.92km2/day if you include Kursk) October = 0.55km2/day (2.52km2/day if you include Kursk) November = 1.27km2/day (2.09km2/day if you include Kursk) December = 0.65km2/day (0.81km2/day if you include Kursk) January = 0.37km2/day (1.43km2/day if you include Kursk) February = 0.97km2/day (1.71km2/day if you include Kursk)
Depends how much the expenses are for Ukraine to hold the territories no?
saracenraider@reddit
At a rate of 10 sq km a day that’d take roughly 45,000 days to take the rest of Ukraine.
historicusXIII@reddit
That's not how attrition warfare works. According to your logic, the First World War would still be ongoing. But we all know that eventually, after four years of stalemate, the German western front collapsed and the Allies pushed the German army back into Belgium in no time, forcing Germany to surrender.
saracenraider@reddit
Ah yes, the famous Ukrainian collapse we’ve been hearing about for the past three years. Almost as famous as the Russian economic collapse
historicusXIII@reddit
Look up the amount of men Ukraine has and the amount that Russia has and do the math. Or whould we wait until Ukraine conscripts school boys?
saracenraider@reddit
Yep, a country doing well manpower wise definitely brings in North Korean troops, many mercenaries from Africa and even sends in men from their strategic missile forces to their frontlines.
If it’s as simple as you say and it’s all about manpower first of all Russia would’ve steamrolled Ukraine years ago and secondly we should all just pack up and let India and China steamroll all over us as they have such a significant manpower advantage due to their population
historicusXIII@reddit
Because Russia, unlike Ukraine, hasn't performed a general mobilisation yet. If need be, Russia can put an extra million people on the frontlines. They prefer to not do so if they can avoid it, hence the use of mercenaries and North Korean troops.
saracenraider@reddit
And who says Putin has the ability to do a general mobilisation? Much easier to do it if like Ukraine you’ve been invaded. Widespread reporting says Putin has avoided a general mobilisation as the backlash would be too strong.
Your mental gymnastics are really working overtime atm. It’s like playing a game of whack-a-mole. Each argument that gets shot down, a new one springs up
historicusXIII@reddit
Widespread reporting has said a lot of things about Russia, most of which were proven to be false.
saracenraider@reddit
Has he done a general mobilisation? No, so what’s your point?
My god you’re a desperate clown, I’m done with this
BlockAffectionate413@reddit
Yea but that assumes things remain the same forever; nothing happens in between, and that one side would not just collapse at some point. That is obviously not how it works.
NoobOfTheSquareTable@reddit
The Russian advance has been slowing, and the gains are only possible with loss of life so not a trade that can be made forever
Russia can’t get those soldiers back, Ukraine could take that land back
BlockAffectionate413@reddit
Ukrainians are dying though, it is just that:
a. As Patient-Mulberry-659 noted, Russia is gaining a lot more than Ukraine.
b. They have much larger population and as such can afford to lose much more than Ukraine can. Ukraine needs soldiers to take their land back, and their soldiers are dying too.
NoobOfTheSquareTable@reddit
Attacking is traditionally way worse for casualties so they could very easily be losing men at a faster rate even when adjusted for population
And each side is fighting for a different reason, Ukraine might be far more happy to stand and slug it out forever if they see the alternative as complete destruction while Russians might not be as motivated
This is why the slowing is important because if Russia loses momentum the political will can dry up really fast and you have a collapse of their lines rather than Ukraine
Patient-Mulberry-659@reddit
I hope this stupid myth dies. Attacking isn’t “traditionally way worse for casualties” it isn’t even traditionally worse. Just pick 5 random battles from WW1.
Or take the Gallipoli campaign recognised as an absolute clusterfuck. Attackers barely lost more.
If that was the case they wouldn’t need to lock the borders for nearly the entire adult male population.
It’s too early to tell if momentum is actually slowing. They are advancing faster than last year at this time. Their march 2025 number will be bigger than February 2025. And as the weather clears up we will see whether the momentum keeps going or not.
I think you are just seeing what you want to see rather than objective reality.
NoobOfTheSquareTable@reddit
The rate of ground taken is already being estimated with weather in mind
And Gallipoli was considered a clusterfuck but because it failed to take ground
The reason it failed was because they couldn’t push without devastating losses and it ended up as a stalemate in a situation where a stalemate was a British loss
Gallipoli is a failure specifically because the cost to attack would have been too high
Patient-Mulberry-659@reddit
So for Gallipoli
56,707 dead VS 56,643 dead
Despite 9-10 months of attacking and an amphibious landing.
And again, just pick 5 random battles from WW1 and you will see the absolute insanity of your claim.
Nethlem@reddit
Don't need to trade "forever", only need to trade long enough for one side to run out of people, and it's not gonna be the side that has like 5 times the population of the other.
But Ukraine can?
Yeah could, Ukraine could also run out of people to do anything with the land it has left. Which is actually the way more likely thing to happen on account of the population differences between the involved conflict parties.
saracenraider@reddit
Yea, obviously. And I’d say there’s an equal chance of it happening to either side if the war drags on for another few years. Ukraines risk is their reliance on international support and Russia’s is that their economy is in bad shape at the moment (very high inflation and interest rates and clear signs of distress in important parts of the economy such as the mortgage market).
BlockAffectionate413@reddit
With Ukraine it is much greater though; it is obvious they will not get unlimited support forever, even now most Americans are against it. the the Russian economy has been a month from collapsing for 3 years now, just like Putin has been a month from dying from cancer and Parkinson's, but that has obviously not come to fruition. Russia is much larger than Ukraine in terms of population and can much more easily replace manpower than Ukraine can. They also produce more ammunition than West can send to Ukraine for time being. When you factor those things, it is very hard to see Ukraine coming on top in war of attrition.
saracenraider@reddit
You could have made a similar argument for Assad a few months ago
historicusXIII@reddit
Assad, like Ukraine, depended heavily on foreign support.
saracenraider@reddit
Difference being Assad’s foreign support turned out to be a paper tiger when actually tested. Ukraine has been tested relentlessly for three years and still is holding out
Vassago81@reddit
The front in the center of donetsk isn't moving much but they're making a lot of gains in southern donetsk and west of the oskil river
saracenraider@reddit
Significant gains is doing a lot of heavy lifting here. It’s a field or two each day and occasionally a village. And in the case of the oskil river Ukraine has made progress east of the river and west they’re trading land, with Ukraine recently recapturing a village there (Zapadne)
Private_HughMan@reddit
With the conditions Putin described, I don't think it really benefits Ukraine.
201-inch-rectum@reddit
short-term it puts a temporary end to the bloodshed
Private_HughMan@reddit
Yeah but long-term is guarantees that Russia and only Russia is going to be capable of much more bloodshed.
201-inch-rectum@reddit
depends... if Russia violates the cease-fire, it gives Europe full reign to put boots on the ground
not that the EU actually would... I'm sure the most they could muster is a wagging finger
Private_HughMan@reddit
So nothing.
Weird_Point_4262@reddit
Putin is never going to accept a deal that benefits Ukraine more than Russia, no country would.
Private_HughMan@reddit
I get that, but this seems like it would only be good for Russia. Russia gets to regroup, re-arm and train up new recruits. Ukraine gets to do absolutely nothing, militarily. They can bolster civilian infastructure, but that's meaningless if in 30 days they fight a rested and replenished Russia while they're in the same spot they're in now.
bluecheese2040@reddit
You misunderstand. I'm talking about what ukriane and America agreed. No one has agreed to what putin said.
WhoAmIEven2@reddit
Making ground is a way to reword taking a couple of football fields per month.
crusadertank@reddit
This was said about both the Western front in WW1 and Italy in WW2.
Turns out, a war of attrition is slow right up until the moment one side starts to fall apart.
Ukraine does not have forever to defend. The manpower shortage grows by the day. With some areas Russia is finding well developed fortifications but with almost nobody in them
Aaron_Hamm@reddit
Same thing is happening on the Russian side
chillichampion@reddit
According to who?
Aaron_Hamm@reddit
Everyone that's not Russia
Nethlem@reddit
"Everyone", yet the source you linked to is Ukrainian Pravada, which is basically the propaganda arm of one of the conflict parties.
For Ukrainian numbers your source is the BBC, the state-broadcaster of the UK, and as such also not exactly unbiased.
loggy_sci@reddit
That link doesn’t work
crusadertank@reddit
Maybe so but casualty ratios I have seen are maybe around 1:1.5 in favour of Ukraine
Nowhere close to what Ukraine would need due to the population difference between the countries
Aaron_Hamm@reddit
crusadertank@reddit
Depends on the source.
Ukrainian and Western sources give 2:1
Open source estimates give around 1.5:1
But either way, it is nowhere close to the at least 5:1 that Ukraine would need to make up for the population difference
Aaron_Hamm@reddit
When one side is fighting for it's existence, and the other side is just fucking about, you don't need to win the total population difference
Nethlem@reddit
Apparently one also doesn't need to acknowledge material reality on the battlefield and can just make up some wishful thinky nonsense, exactly like Bagdad Bob used to do about the US invasion of Iraq.
Aaron_Hamm@reddit
LMAO you're a hoot bro... Between this one and the other comment where you pretend a sourced number is fake because of where you read it, I'm don't think you're adding much value
crusadertank@reddit
Well the Russian side isn't showing any kind of cracks in its morale whatsoever. And despite what you say, they are seeing themselves as the defenders in this war and are still fully voluntary contracts in their military.
Meanwhile you have a lot of Ukrainians being forced into the army who very much don't want to "fight for it's existence"
Ukraine isn't doing well right now. They are running out of men who are willing to fight. So yes, they do need to win a population difference. And they are losing it.
Aaron_Hamm@reddit
Russia is paying out the ass to get people to volunteer.
I'm not saying the Ukrainian position is currently great, but the war is winnable by Ukraine if the rest of Europe would stop with the Neville Chamberlain impersonation
crusadertank@reddit
Sure, but it doesn't change that it is voluntary. Everyone in the Russian military is there because they chose to be there
Which the same can't be said for Ukraine
But what would they do? They won't go into open war with Russia because bodybags suddenly coming home would destroy their government. Not to mention opening the country up to retaliatory attacks
The whole push for supporting Ukraine was to "fight Russia there instead of here" And we can see that sending soldiers to Ukraine is incredibly unpopular across Europe
Ukraine is just trying to stall the war but they are on the path to collapse. And the only thing I can see people hoping for is Western soldiers being sent to Ukraine or a Russian collapse
Both of which I don't see anywhere close to reality. Maybe it can change, but i don't see it happening
mittfh@reddit
The big problem for Ukraine is that they know that Russia won't be content with just taking the four Oblasts + Crimea: without meaningful security guarantees, sooner or later Russia would find an excuse to go after Myoklaiv and Odessa Oblasts (imaginary genocide of Russophones again?), annex them after a phony "referendum", then go onto Moldova.
Of course, if he got his wish to significantly deplete Ukraine's military stretch and forbid it from joining any multinational security alliances (at least, ones where Russia can't veto intervention), he'd be able to waltz into Kyiv and either turn it into a vassal State or annex it entirely; while if the US abandoned NATO, he could feasibly try a limited incursion into the Baltic States and see if anyone reacted.
kwonza@reddit
Then why every time there’s a body swap Russia is sending 900 bodies to pick up 50?
Gackey@reddit
The obvious answer is that Russia is advancing and Ukraine isn't. Just about every Ukrainian body will wind up in Russian hands. It's not indicative of relative casualty rates.
Aaron_Hamm@reddit
citation needed
Burpees-King@reddit
Here is 501 Ukrainians to 89 Russians
https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2024/10/18/russia-and-ukraine-exchange-bodies-of-nearly-600-fallen-soldiers-a86743
It’s almost always this lopsided when they do a body swap.
You should consider reading less slava Ukraini hopium news, Skippy.
Aaron_Hamm@reddit
Ah yes, the Moscow times...
Lol
Burpees-King@reddit
The Moscow Times is an anti Putin newspaper headquartered in the Netherlands.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Moscow_Times
Get informed Skippy.
Aaron_Hamm@reddit
Cool story. Did I say the info was wrong?
Burpees-King@reddit
No, but you implied it by stating “ah yes, the Moscow Times…” or why else would you bother saying that lmao.
Aaron_Hamm@reddit
You still haven't responded to the fact that you would expect an advancing army to collect most of the dead from both sides, and how that explains the fact that you can have lopsided swaps that aren't representative of the relative casualty rates...
Burpees-King@reddit
I never disputed that.
You asked the other guy for citation of a lopsided body swap. I gave you a link, you inserted that Russia is advancing so they can pick up their dead - I’ve never disputed that.
The fact is Ukraine is facing severe manpower issues despite draconian mobilization laws and a complete ban on men leaving the country. That’s telling on itself.
Aaron_Hamm@reddit
They were asserting that disparity was evidence that Ukraine was losing more men than Russia.
Russia is currently paying out the ass to get people to join up; they're also facing a manpower shortage.
https://cepa.org/article/russias-year-of-truth-1-the-soldier-shortage/
Burpees-King@reddit
Paying out the ass is better than kidnapping people from the streets and throwing them into an unmarked van. It’s also why Russia has a favourable kill ratio, because there soldiers volunteered and know what they are getting into, unlike the average Ukrainian soldier who is forced to fight.
Russia is not facing any manpower issues at all actually. The size of their forces in Ukraine increased from 100k in 2022 to 700k in 2024.
This is because Russia constantly beats its recruitment goals every year.
https://www.businessinsider.com/russia-beating-military-recruitment-goals-ukraine-war-bonuses-new-laws-2025-3
CEPA claims an increase in the salaries indicates a troop shortage, but this doesn’t correlate to reality as the Russian army has only grown in Ukraine.
Aaron_Hamm@reddit
Ummm, yes, having to pay more absolutely indicates a recruitment problem lol... That's how economics works
You really sound like you're either propagandized or a propagandist, my guy.
Burpees-King@reddit
Where is the problem? Russia exceeds its recruitment goals every year, some people are willing to go to war for more money then the next guy, that’s not an indication. The goal for Russia is
Bit funny coming from the guy that has been consistently wrong in this thread. Bro said Russia has 900k casualties lmao- then you said Russia has manpower issues even though they beat their recruitment goals every year.
Aaron_Hamm@reddit
You still have offered nothing but personal disbelief over the "nearly 900k" number that I provided with a source.
Yes, you look like a propagandist.
The problem is in a war of attrition, having to offer huge amounts of money to keep going suggests you've nearly exhausted your ability to keep it up.
Burpees-King@reddit
Oh really? https://www.reddit.com/r/anime_titties/s/crgAKBsrrW
Yea Ukrainian MoD numbers like a knew you would spout. Which isn’t reality, just fake. Their methodology is a random number generator between 1000-2000 and whatever it lands on that’s the amount of Russians they will say got killed on the day.
Bro here spouting Ukrainian war propaganda, and is tryna to say I’m the propagandist lmao. Guy isn’t self aware at all.
Aaron_Hamm@reddit
Yes really... There's no link in your link.
You're so obviously full of shit bro
kwonza@reddit
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ukraine-russia-swap-bodies-soldiers-one-of-biggest-exchanges-of-its-kind/
https://meduza.io/amp/en/news/2024/11/08/in-latest-repatriation-of-remains-563-killed-soldiers-return-to-ukraine-37-to-russia
Just to name a few. It actually took me some time because many Western and pro-Ukraine sources just give the total number of bodies exchanged without saying how many each side got. I wonder why they would do that?)
Also I found no mention of this year’s swap: Ukraine sent 45 bodies and Russia 757 back in February.
There’s no way of saying how many Ukrainians were killed in the last week during the fall of Kursk frontline, but judging from the videos probably a lot. It was a silly endeavor, Krynki part two but on a much larger scale.
Aaron_Hamm@reddit
Thanks for the link. You'd expect a side advancing to be able to pick up their own bodies and collect more of the opposing side, right?
AmputatorBot@reddit
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Maybe check out the canonical page instead: https://meduza.io/en/news/2024/11/08/in-latest-repatriation-of-remains-563-killed-soldiers-return-to-ukraine-37-to-russia
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babybabayyy@reddit
Pravda is most definitely not a trust worthy source. That "journalism" is Sputnik levels of propaganda
Aaron_Hamm@reddit
Yet none of you have offered anything else
babybabayyy@reddit
You have offered shit on a plate my guy
Aaron_Hamm@reddit
Ok putin
babybabayyy@reddit
Hahaha damn I was waiting for you to bust that one out.
I commend you for showing some restraint by not immediately calling me that after simply questioning your pravda fueled narrative ♥️
Aaron_Hamm@reddit
I love how you ignored the fact that Pravda isn't the source so you could continue your citation free bitch fest.
babybabayyy@reddit
I've made no claims buddy unlike yourself, who explicity told me to "look at my reddit history bro" as that's somehow the paragon of factual information in your head.
So I did what you told me and low and behold I see you linking Pravda articles.
I still haven't seen you cite anything in your comments on this thread so you're clearly projecting.
Aaron_Hamm@reddit
Anyways, blocking you now. You add nothing
Aaron_Hamm@reddit
You've made the claim that my claim is incorrect.
And you're obsessed with shooting the messenger instead of engaging with anything meaningful.
Still going with you're a propaganda account. It's pretty transparent
babybabayyy@reddit
Provide a source for this rather than talking out of your ass
Aaron_Hamm@reddit
I did. Check my comment history instead of throwing a fucking tantrum
ABadlyDrawnCoke@reddit
Source? Not that they're taking higher casualties (that's expected) but that the difference is critical.
Russia had over 3x the population of Ukraine before the war, and with the mass exodus of Ukrainian refugees that difference has only grown. As analysts have been saying from the beginning, Russia has the resources to outlast Ukraine in an attritional war. This understanding was the reasoning behind the failed 2022 counteroffensive: to adopt a maneuver warfare strategy that Russia was worse at.
Aaron_Hamm@reddit
I posted some sources in other comments, but the ratio looks to be >2:1
Hyndis@reddit
I saw a study by the BBC last year that estimated Ukraine had suffered 400,000 casualties and Russia had suffered about 600,000 casualties. Obviously those numbers have increased since then, but the ratio has likely not changed significantly.
Gackey@reddit
Russia is recruiting more than it loses, they've actually been exceeding their recruitment quotas and growing their forces over the course of the war. I don't think Ukraine has ever managed to hit its recruitment targets.
bluecheese2040@reddit
Lol...if you say so.
WhoAmIEven2@reddit
What do you mean? Deepstatemap is there for all to see. Look at their gains in 2024 and so far in 2025. It's miniscule, like it's been in the whole war other than their first offensive in 2022.
bluecheese2040@reddit
I mean, Ukraine and Russia are in an attritional war... In which ground is taken less an important metric than the destruction of men and material that is accompanied by it.
Attritional warfare as per ww1 showed us that when attrition hits a certain point, the movement along the line of engagement will speed up exponentially. See the 100-day offensive in ww1.
Again...when a certain attirtion is reached the lines will lov3 extremely fast.
So long taken is less important than the losses taken along the way.
Secondly.if we take a moment to examine the 'small gains' Russia has made...let's look at that land.
Avdiivka (fortress), pisky (fortress), vuledar (fortress), dozens of fortified lines and encampments.
This is why we face a terrible situation where many Ukrainian forces have been shattered (reports that several leaving kursk left 80% of their kit and men behind and they were elite units), genrral losses in Ukraine have resulted in a manpower shortage, numerous vitally important fortresses have been lost....
Contrast this with Russia that seems to have adapted to a low tech. Fighting method. Ukriane said Russia recruited 100k more than it targeted last year.
Aaron_Hamm@reddit
All of that land has cost Russia way more lives than Ukraine gave up to cede it
bluecheese2040@reddit
You didn't read the post....
Seriously doubt it. Let's do a common sense check...we are told.time and again that must casualties are from artillery
Russia has artillery superiority in many key parts of the line...it chucks hundreds of FABs onto front lines.
Why do you think Ukraine inflicts more casualties?
Aaron_Hamm@reddit
Because I'm following along daily.
Russia has lost nearly 900,000 troops
https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2025/03/13/7502631/
Ukraine under 400,000
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c5yv75nydy3o
chillichampion@reddit
Bro unironically linked a source from Ukrainska Pravda.🤡. The source for 900k losses is Ukrainian army.
Aaron_Hamm@reddit
You propaganda accounts are so easy to spot
BaguetteFetish@reddit
Brother you're the one literally taking casualty numbers from a the MOD of a country fighting in the war.
bluecheese2040@reddit
Lol u quote Ukraine for russias losses and the bbc for ukraines....lol. talk about biassed sources.
I doubt even Russia knows how many it's lost.
It's like trusting nazi Germany to tell you about allied losses....
Naive to the point of being deliberately deceptive
Aaron_Hamm@reddit
And you quote nothing
bluecheese2040@reddit
It's a war...neither side push out real figures. Trump said 900k versus 700k...why didn't u choose those figures?
They are meaningless.
So we have to apply commonsense.
Artillery is the killer...we cns include fabs in that.
Who had more?
If you can give me evidence or portray a convincing argument I'll change my view.
I'm a data person so...please trust me...I will change my view
Aaron_Hamm@reddit
Because Trump is a known liar who talks out of his ass...
What's your source that artillery is the killer?
bluecheese2040@reddit
https://defenceobserver.ca/2024/05/artillery-top-killer-on-ukraine-battlefield/
https://rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/commentary/russias-god-war-political-and-military-power-artillery
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/16/world/europe/ukraine-war-weapons.html
Cavoli said during a House Armed Services Committee Hearing on Wednesday, adding that "the biggest killer on the battlefield is artillery in most conflicts, but in this one, definitely."
https://www.businessinsider.com/russian-artillery-advantage-over-ukraine-will-double-in-weeks-general-2024-4
There's think tanks, generals media, interviews...what more do you want?
Aaron_Hamm@reddit
Thanks for the links...
Who usually loses more troops, an attacker or a defender?
bluecheese2040@reddit
Depends. Its not simple.
When the coalition attacked Iraq, who lost more? The coalition or the iraqi army?
If defenders dug into a tree line get 4 fab 500 dropped on them the attacker will likely take zero losses cause the defenders will be incapacitated at best and vaporised at worst.
I do take your point of course...but its not always simple.
One final point. When we see videos of Russian or ukrianian formations getting destroyed...often we are seeing 1 of e.g. 3 columns....2 of which grt through.
My point is...we shouldn't allow ourselves to be deceived by either side.
Q
Kep0a@reddit
No offense but your comment volume is insane. Suspicious honestly. I think russian casualties are unknown but it's a fair assessment they are higher, given they're on the offensive and lacking equipment.
bluecheese2040@reddit
Lol..I was riding the bus so...had time.
Burpees-King@reddit
I highly doubt that.
Aaron_Hamm@reddit
Then you're not actually following along...
Russia is pushing 900,000 and Ukraine is pushing 200,000
Burpees-King@reddit
Lmao if you think Russia is pushing 900,000 you’re horribly misinformed.
Aaron_Hamm@reddit
It's widely reported. You go ahead and believe whatever nonsense you want tho
Burpees-King@reddit
Yea reported by the UA mod lmao.
The side with the significant advantage in firepower will almost always inflict the most casualties, its basic military science.
On top of that the Russian army has increased in Ukraine year on year, yet your dumbass claims almost 1m has been killed. Basic math doesn’t support your fanfic.
Aaron_Hamm@reddit
Feel free to offer a different source that you think is more reliable... Until then you're just whining
The side attacking will almost always suffer more losses; it's basic military science.
It's sad that this sub has been infiltrated by propagandists throwing tantrums
Amormaliar@reddit
According to CIT (one of the most famous groups currently working on this topic - working only on available and proof-able sources) - Russian-Ukrainian organization which works together with US authorities… current estimations of losses - only a few dozen thousands apart in favor of Ukraine. IIRC it’s based on analysis of all other similar organizations and their own data. So it’s even less than 1.5 : 1 sadly
Aaron_Hamm@reddit
Link?
chillichampion@reddit
Widely reported by AFU and other Ukrainian allied propagandists.
Aaron_Hamm@reddit
Ok putin
tamal4444@reddit
sure buddy.
fre-ddo@reddit
Now Trump will put pressure on Ukraine to accept and adhere to it because Trump's ego is desperate for the peacemaker badge.
Monte924@reddit
Trump was the one who STRIPPED Ukraine of their power which helpped Russia's latest advances. Trump specifically wanted to weaken Ukraine in order to pressure THEM into making a bad deal with Putin
chillichampion@reddit
No Ukrainian supply lines were under fire control long before trump cut off aid. Kursk collapsed due to the pipeline operation not some imaginary cope of lack of intelligence.
Kazruw@reddit
The first part is true based on what I’ve read whereas the second part is bullshit. There’s been talk of Ukraine withdrawing having equipment already in February so the end result is not too surprising.
While Ukraine has been losing Kursk they’ve been retaking land elsewhere.
kwonza@reddit
That damn Trump switched off the web cams installed in the pipe which allowed Russian soldiers to crawl through it)
bluecheese2040@reddit
No...Ukraine was been pushed back long before the election.
I agree with you on this.
dgamr@reddit
The end of hostilities should "address the original causes of the crisis".
So, let's propose that Russia will not mobilize or train soldiers, produce or receive weapons during the 30-day ceasefire.
Mundane_Emu8921@reddit
If mobilization is the cause of this war then what does that say about Europe with its €800 billion arms package.
JaThatOneGooner@reddit
Wait so he gets to demand guarantees but Ukraine cannot, despite him violating the guarantees Russia has made to Ukraine over and over again? Rules for me but not for thee?
I’m not shocked, it’s just funny to see the double standards.
Mundane_Emu8921@reddit
Russia is just saying what we already know but some choose not to admit; that Ukraine isn’t going to get guarantees.
NATO membership is off the table.
It was never on the table to begin with.
chillichampion@reddit
Ukraine can demand anything it wants, Russia doesn’t need to accept them.
Kazruw@reddit
And vice versa.
chillichampion@reddit
I agree and Russia will keep going and take more land.
King_Kvnt@reddit
Wait a second, isn't it still illegal for Ukraine to negotiate a peace deal with Russia? I do recall that Zelensky made that a decree a few years ago. While that decree stands, any claims of wanting "peace" are merely posturing.
decimeci@reddit
Law can easily be amended, in ex ussr countries you don't need to worry too much about legal stuff, most things can be resolved based on deals between politicians
King_Kvnt@reddit
It's a shame that this wasn't solved that way before all out war.
decimeci@reddit
Ukraine probably assumed that Russia would keep it as proxy war and won't invade directly. So it didn't make sense for them to solve it the way Russian wanted, I guess they hoped to just freeze everything and keep it like Transnistria, Abkhazi or Southern Ossetia. In that case Donbas and Lugansk would have been just poor cities kept alive by Russian budget and everyone would have forgotten about conflict and continued their lives as before. Which actually what happened, even after 2014 and before 2022 Russians freely traveled to Ukraine and vice versa. If you are into esports you might know that most Russian or Ukrainian teams were mix of both. Also people from Donbas and Lugansk also were able to move freely to western parts of Ukraine. Everything could have been avoided if Russia didn't invade, their relationships were healing and probably issue of the Eastern part could have been solved at some point.
Mexishould@reddit
Now you learned what the whole point of this ceasefire game is all about. Its all about posturing and gaining the higher ground and support from both sides.
chucktheninja@reddit
"I'm willing to agree to a ceasefire, but you have to promise to never support them again if I decide to break the ceasefire."
Paltamachine@reddit
The problem with ending the war is that the US, having been part of the alliance, should not have to be a mediator in this.
And before even proposing a cease-fire they should be able to interpret the situation in Ukraine in the same way:
- Ukraine just wants more weapons to keep fighting,
- Russia considers itself the victorious country but sees that nobody takes into account its demands..
- and usa, wants its investment to pay off and make Trump look good...
.
With guys like that you can't negotiate.
Nervous_Book_4375@reddit
Russia is In a very fucked position. Wildcard Trump who is so stupid at this point, asset or not he can’t be trusted. And they want to end the war but not too fast without fucking their war economy. Europe has rallied against the USA instead of agreeing with Trump. Meaning Putin can’t end the war on his terms. Trump has turned his country to the brink of civil war which means Russia could potentially never recover economically as it relies on USA world order to sell its oil. Basically as usual every time we reach a world war. The powers that be fucked themselves into oblivion. Bravo Putin and Trump. You basically burned the chess pieces and are trying (unsuccessfully) to play with the ashes.
Fabrezz1@reddit
Well I hope they accept the ceasefire deal and can negotiate a lasting peace. I think as long as Ukraine stays a functioning state with Russia having no more fear of NATO membership that things will be ok. If Russia and the US could get along better I think that sould help us too a lot more in the long run.
joedude@reddit
Reddit ain't gonna like this lol
LunarExpoze12@reddit
russia wants to make ukraine into a puppet state.
whitecow@reddit
So another Budapest memorandum but this time Ukraine will be attacked way sooner?
HingleMcCringle_@reddit
it's so fucking obvious, it feels like putin's tactics are coming from a ten year old.
"sure, i promise to a ceasefire, just become completely defensless and make yourself vulnerable."
yargh8890@reddit
Wait he wants assurances now. I thought that was an openly mockable offense.
empleadoEstatalBot@reddit
Maintainer | Creator | Source Code
Summoning /u/CoverageAnalysisBot
coverageanalysisbot@reddit
Hi empleadoEstatalBot,
We've found 18 sources (so far) that are covering this story including:
Firstpost News (Leans Right): "Putin says Russia 'in favour' of Trump's ceasefire proposal but flags 'serious questions'"
CNBC (Center): "Putin says Russia backs Ukraine ceasefire but any deal must address 'root causes'"
The Kyiv Independent (Leans Left): "BREAKING: Putin ready for ceasefire but demands 'guarantees' depriving Ukraine of aid"
Of all the sources reporting on this story, 27% are left-leaning, 36% are right-leaning, and 36% are in the center. Read the full coverage analysis and compare how 18+ sources from across the political spectrum are covering this story.
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