Squawk 7700,7600,7500
Posted by Namazon44@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 109 comments
I was learning about communication failure and how to troublesome and mitigate the issue.
It was said to not squawk 7600 if one was to be in an uncontrolled area as no one will be able to see it.
So the question is, what about 7700 and 7500 if it happened in an uncontrolled area? What am I missing?
Baystate411@reddit
You have no idea who can and cannot see it. Squawk it.
Namazon44@reddit (OP)
Seriously the teaching here states not to squawk 7600 if you are not in a controlled area/zone.
CorporalCrash@reddit
Where are you getting this info from? TC AIM 8.7 regarding transponder operation in emergencies states that 7600 should be selected in the event of a communication failure, not stating that it must be in controlled airspace.
Furthermore 8.6 states 7700 should be selected "in the event of an emergency and if unable to establish communication immediately with an ATC unit" which applies to uncontrolled airspace.
CanadianFltTrainers@reddit
The key here is "in an emergency." A comm failure in itself is not an emergency but it CAN be.
Namazon44@reddit (OP)
Someone mentioned it already. Pilottraingca
CorporalCrash@reddit
Does the website provide a citation for where they got this info?
ViceroyInhaler@reddit
Where are you learning this in Canada. I did my training gin Canada. I'm a commercial 705 pilot in Canada. Who the fuck taught you not to squawk 7600 in u controlled airspace?
Philly514@reddit
Many of use pilottraining.ca practice exams and they have a question that aligns perfectly with OP is writing that claims you should use 1200 instead of 7600 because you are out of radar coverage and it’s useless unless you plan to enter controlled airspace. Technically, if you takeoff in G and land in G I don’t see why squawking 7600 would do you any good anyway. I suspect they will change that question in the practice quiz.
ViceroyInhaler@reddit
I don't see how it's useless to squawk 7600 if you have a com failure no matter what airspace you are in. Let's say you are in uncontrolled airspace and no one can see you. Well then it's technically useless to squawk 1200 as well. You could squawk anything you like. The whole purpose of squawking 1200 is so ATC knows what flight rules you are under so they can inform other traffic that they are controlling. They're still gonna see you if you squawk 7600.
Furthermore with ADSB rolling out squawking 7600 might actually have them look at your flight and see where you are going so that they can inform other pilots in the area even in uncontrolled airspace. They can still talk to pilots in uncontrolled airspace and let them know what's up and what they should expect regarding your flight plan.
Philly514@reddit
I guess I should have clarified, pilottraining.ca made that argument, I agree with you 100%. My school teaches to squawk 7600 and I just did my CPL written in Montreal and a question incorporated that and the answer was definitely to squawk 7600.
Namazon44@reddit (OP)
So should I choose 7600 if I ever get the same kind of question in the exam? Wow I’m glad I brought this up on reddit lol
Philly514@reddit
Absolute best advice will come from your chief flight instructor or instructor, they deal with examiners and TC people all the time. If you ask your chief they have contacts at Transport Canada so they can find out at the source.
F1shermanIvan@reddit
Just because you're in uncontrolled airspace doesn't mean you're outside of radar coverage. I fly around Baffin Island all day in uncontrolled airspace, but we're still on Edmonton Centre's radar scope. If I squawk anything other than 2000, they're gonna ask someone to call us on 126.7 and see why.
Philly514@reddit
Yup I agree, as I wrote in another comment pilottraining.ca has a practice exam question making the argument to squawk 1200 instead of 7600 but in their explanation they literally say it’s not the legal definition it’s discretionary.
F1shermanIvan@reddit
That’s stupid.
Philly514@reddit
They are typically very good but they goofed on that one.
Namazon44@reddit (OP)
Pilottrainingca someone below already mentioned it and he’s spot on about the quiz.
Philly514@reddit
You’re probably thinking of the pilottraining practice quizzes question 4 of “VFR Procedures”that ask what a pilot in uncontrolled airspace what would they squawk. If you watch the video of the explanation for the answer 1200 instead of 7600 he states it’s discretionary and not the legal answer. I’ve emailed them about this question and haven’t heard back. I suspect they will change it.
Namazon44@reddit (OP)
Yes sir spot on!
RGN_Preacher@reddit
Controllers have contacted other pilots to go on the Unicom / MF for uncontrolled airports and announce / relay for aircraft that aren’t able to communicate. It just happened last week in Houston with ATC having a Cessna 172 relay a pattern entry message over Unicom for a phenom with a dual generator failure and on emergency backup batteries who needed to focus on flying the airplane and not fucking around changing frequencies to make traffic calls.
ALP0H@reddit
In aviation you have to ask why and also why not.
Why squawk 7600? Because it indicates you have a comm failure to anyone who can see it.
Why not squawk 7600? I can't think of a good reason. You don't lose anything by squawking 7600.
Now weigh these two options and use your common sense - what would you do?
SlothPixelmon@reddit
Ask why not and you shall receive! Put my two cents on the main post answering some of your questions. Hope it helps. Feel free to ask more unknowns
AdNew4281@reddit
Im am air traffic controller. I can definitely see what planes are squawking, far outside my zone. Like, im talking multiple provinces wide.
As long as you arent 100agl or something stupid, i can see you
gromm93@reddit
I suspect they're also watching if you are not transponder equipped as well.
Watching especially closely in fact.
AlotaFajita@reddit
We need a reference where it states not to squawk 7600 my friend.
cirroc0@reddit
Not when I did my PPL it didn't.
x4457@reddit
What country?
TheTestyDuke@reddit
What's the teaching? And yeah, in practicality, squawk it
CappyJax@reddit
If you aren’t talking to anyone, what can ATC do to help if they see a random aircraft squawk 7600?
Baystate411@reddit
Coordinate between sectors? If that's your logic then what's the harm
CappyJax@reddit
Coordinate how? They don’t know where the aircraft is going. And I level if they did, there is zero help they can provide. The harm is diverting ATC resources away from things in which they can actually provide help.
Baystate411@reddit
They are controllers...they can see where they are going in radar coverage by just watching him tick across the screen. Homeboy is moving at 100 knots.
You do you and I'll do me
CappyJax@reddit
In any one direction there will be dozens of airports to which an aircraft might be headed.
Again, you haven’t stated a logical reason why to do this? What help can they provide?
Baystate411@reddit
What's causing the comm failure? Radios don't just fail. Electric fire? I'd want another set of eyes.
Alt failure? You got 30 mins of battery so I hope it's not night time.
It's a resource.
CappyJax@reddit
How is it a resource? How can they help? How can they see you when you aren’t even near them? You aren’t making any sense?
SlothPixelmon@reddit
While true, as a question from a student there is better information to be taught. A procedure of why perform said action as the PIC; and, how it may aid the flight. I made a separate reply to the main post.
Baystate411@reddit
Oh no it causes more work for you.
Too bad? Try being the one with the comms failure.
SlothPixelmon@reddit
Been in that position as PIC. Not fun
Why your attitude towards atc is bad I don’t understand. My point is, sometimes a NORDO happens during establishment in a sequence to final at major international airports nearby medevacs and passenger jets. Increasing workload is a factor of safety so I raise awareness that a 7700/7600 is not just a courtesy reminder to everyone but an actual alarm, as it should be.
As soon as you’re not responding and going thru the course you’re heading towards someone else. Many actions need to be handled in a short period of time on both sides of the radios. Do with that information as you will, squawk as expected. My advice is work the problem out if you’re able first because those alarms going off does slow down the response time if it’s already being addressed. Plus sooner the headset is plugged back in or the correct frequency is back in the box you’re going to be better off. Just my opinion, but it’s from quite a few experiences captain.
Alter-ego-me@reddit
Squawk 7509 gets you a private airshow and the closest you’ll ever feel to top gun lol 😂
CappyJax@reddit
If you aren’t talking to someone, there is zero point in squawking 7600 regardless of whether you are in Class E or G. If you are talking to ATC on flight following, squawk 7600 for a minute, then 1200 and proceed to a VFR class E or G airport of your choice without crossing controlled airspace. Call when you get on the ground.
Effective-Scratch673@reddit
If you have to squawk 7500 in a GA plane, you're a few minutes away from meeting your maker anyways, do whatever you want at that point
TxAggieMike@reddit
If I squawk 7500 in the C172, I've chosen my passenger rather poorly.
Papadapalopolous@reddit
Or you forgot to check the backseat during preflight
AdamScotters@reddit
Can you imagine? I taxi to the runway, get cleared and takeoff only to feel some resistance in the yoke as I pull. As I level off and look behind me I am face to face with a stranger.
Trick-Replacement-60@reddit
EJECTO SEAT, CUZ!
aftcg@reddit
Wouldn't it be easier to rotate with weight in the back? Or is the guy sitting on the elevator cables waaayyy in the back?
AdamScotters@reddit
You know you’re right, it’d be harder to push down on the yoke with the weight aft of the nose. You get stowaways often in your Cessna? 😅
aftcg@reddit
Yeah, but it's because I suck at preflights and it's tied down near a bird sanctuary on the back 40 of the airport where the gophers live.
TheOriginalJBones@reddit
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! 7500! 7500!
DooDooCrew@reddit
If I botch a landing hard enough, i might just squawk 7500 to save myself from tremendous embarrassment /s
Schmergenheimer@reddit
N123AB say souls on board
One soul on board
Then why are you squawking 7500?
Aerodynamic_Soda_Can@reddit
"um.... " [7600]
AdamScotters@reddit
Tower, 123AB has a personality disorder
VeggieMeatTM@reddit
They were a cute, furry creature that appeared harmless at first with big eyes and a friendly demeanor, but then the strict rules of the Mogwai were broken.
Effective-Scratch673@reddit
Lol, the atmosphere had a little too much moisture, huh
Schmergenheimer@reddit
The scenario that always plays in my head is someone has me at gunpoint on an empty ramp at night. They're highjacking a clapped out 172, which means they obviously have no knowledge of how to fly (otherwise they'd just steal one). Rather than fight an armed stranger alone at night, I go along with it. I take off and get flight following. During climb out, I explain to my passenger about how 7500' is the ideal operating altitude for the Skyhawk. I "request that altitude from ATC by setting my transponder code to it. It's part of the Nextgen from a few years ago that you can request that without a radio call." We go wherever we're going. Cops are there. I'm a hero.
Or... something like that.
nomadschomad@reddit
I was told to squawk it anytime I wanted to practice formation flying.
Effective-Scratch673@reddit
I think that might be even worse lol... You are squawking 7500 with several planes behind you...you might get your whole wing intercepted and shot down haha
Jokes aside, I thought squawk for formation flight is 1203 and only the lead aircraft
DuelingPushkin@reddit
The joke is that if you squawk 7500 you will shortly have some very cool wingmen.
Namazon44@reddit (OP)
Hahahaha
SlothPixelmon@reddit
Controller here. With Canadian bordering airspace certifications in multiple regions. Also fly. With questions like this, think about why you might be doing an action. Why you would need to make others aware, in a very large and international way, there is something wrong while you’re flying? This is where these discrete squawks come in. They alert the entire world in a loud way like calling the police that you need help or are a high risk aircraft.
If you are in controlled airspace in communications with atc and have a radio failure then use 7600.
If you have an inflight emergency prioritize the procedures taught. Aviate, navigate, communicate. Putting in 7700 is likely very low on your priority list. From experience with lots of emergencies from rural Alaska to major metro areas; best 7700 will do it is possibly quicker SAR if you have no other options to communicate.
In a practical tone: Nowadays these two are rarely useful, but exist for good reason. If you have lost comms with atc they likely know that as well as you do. In practice, if partial messages got across you’re an emergency or the radios are having trouble then also squawking 7600/7700 is just adding to everyone’s workload. It distracts atc from radio calls to move planes out of your way and trying other means to reestablish contact.
In layman for non pylot types: using the codes causes a lot of phone lines and alarms that start ringing just like a fire station has a big alarm for a 911 call. If you’re not in distress or unsafe sometimes it’s best to resolve the situation without emt, fire, and police staging at every airport for quite a large area.
Disclaimer: Not the official position of FAA, just my personal experience and opinions.
Drunkenaviator@reddit
Which is exactly why you want to use those codes if you have a situation that warrants it.
The shit it sets off is someone else's problem. If you're having an issue, squawk the code.
SlothPixelmon@reddit
Absolutely. However always use common sense. I’ve had occasions where a vfr a/c trying to transit a C or B had poor comms and were told remain outside rdr svc terminated squawk vfr freq change apvd. We get the read back, then they started squawking 7600 instead of 1200 as they turned around and headed home or circumnavigate for an extra 50nm.
Until that transponder is turned off there’s continuous alarms and calls coming in trying to assist. Reducing services for the airspace. For pilots, think an ELT going off for days from a plane that has been ramp parked thru a storm. If another ELT activates it may be missed ignored or obscured. Obviously every ELT (and squawk) needs a response and belongs in the plane. Knowledge of why and how their activation is handled helps us all fly smarter and safer.
Drunkenaviator@reddit
That's insane. And stupid. But, not surprising.
SlothPixelmon@reddit
Haha yep. That’s why when I saw all the, just squawk it, I had to add some “Why is it a thing” content. It’s very important but like 911 people do sometimes misuse it.
Drunkenaviator@reddit
Exactly. Squawk it if you need it but only if you need it.
CaptKom@reddit
I think some people here are unfamiliar with the vast amounts of uncontrolled airspace in Canada, like class G that might be on the outskirts of radar. You don't even need a radio to operate in those areas. Definitely do not send alarm bells going off at your nearest ATC centre while pounding the circuit at some grass strip.
Namazon44@reddit (OP)
Mostly US from the comments here 😬
CanadianFltTrainers@reddit
In Canada, you can be NORDO in uncontrolled airspace and some controlled airspaces. Those squawk codes are for abnormal situations that warrant the attention of Air Traffic Services in Canada. Losing a radio in uncontrolled airspace is not an emergency itself as it may not be required equipment depending on where you are going. No one being able to see it is false as ATS can see you in places where you may be in uncontrolled airspace - not logical.
If you have a hijack or emergency, squawk the proper codes regardless of where you are.
grease_gun@reddit
Their argument is, if you’re not in controlled airspace and won’t be, you’re only a distraction on a controller’s screen and not really adding info: you have no comms but you’re in G so you don’t require them. If you’re returning to a G airfield then what is 7600 gonna do for you? Now, if you’re rolling into a controlled airfield; 7600 is going to alert them to clear the way or to expect a phone call.
Example we were given is you’re out in G, but you want to come home to our home base in a C where your maintenance is, rather than 7600 for 100NM, squawk it closer to the zone, try a phone call, and then proceed in a predictable manner.
Thegerbster2@reddit
This is the answer, I think a lot of comments here are from people in the US who will be in controlled airspace or on flight following almost all of the time (and rightfully so), where squawking 7600 would be the right thing to do, even in uncontrolled.
In Canada though, if you're not talking to a controller, will never talk to a controller, and are legal to NORDO, there's nothing gained by doing so. But yeah, if you are planning to enter a class D, C or even an E CZ then yes, it would make sense to do so, and call the tower/FSS.
casualdogiscasual@reddit
You’re almost certainly in “controlled” airspace, even if you’re not talking to someone. Class E is controlled airspace, and it starts at 700 AGL near many uncontrolled airports and 1200 AGL pretty much everywhere else. A lot of people don’t realize how little time you typically spend in actual class G for most typical flying
Billyjoeymoma@reddit
In Canada there is an enormous of uncontrolled airspace that doesn’t hit controlled until class a at 18000ft
frigley1@reddit
I don’t know about Canada but in Switzerland class E is controlled.
Controlled does not mean you need to have ATC contact while flying VFR. It does mean that there can be IFR traffic.
gbchaosmaster@reddit
Laughs in helicopter
SSMDive@reddit
Dude.... Why in the hell would you squawk anything but the correct code? Think about it... If you are not sure ATC will see the 7600 code, what good would squawking any other code be better? It does not "logic".
And why would you NOT squawk the correct code? If no one sees it, what harm is done? If one person sees it then it has done it's job. And if you put in 7500.... Uh, I'd not want to scramble the cops where I land for a simple radio issue.
There is a reason we have codes... Use the correct code.
greasyspider@reddit
I think you misunderstood the question. I think he is asking if it is worth squawking in an uncontrolled area at all
SSMDive@reddit
Didn't miss that at all.
Plus he asked about using other codes... And if they are not going to see the correct 7600 code, why bother with an incorrect code like saying you were freaking HIJACKED!!!???
virtuesdeparture@reddit
I don’t think OP meant should he squawk 7500 or 7700 instead of 7600. I think he meant, if he shouldn’t bother to squawk 7600 instead the case of a radio failure, should he also not bother to squawk 7500/7700 in the case of a hijacking/emergency.
I agree with you though, you don’t know whether you are seen or not, so it’s better to squawk the correct frequency regardless.
SSMDive@reddit
You might be correct on a second reading. Good catch
Mach2Pilot@reddit
Whoever told you that is a clown and knows nothing about interrogators, inverse square law, or anything about controlled/uncontrolled airspace as it relates to radar coverage. Ignore them forevermore. Squawk 7600.
Jwylde2@reddit
There’s no such thing as “uncontrolled airspace”. Perhaps you mean “non-towered airspace”?
In order for a transponder to send a mode A/C reply, there must be something to interrogate it. Be it a ground based radar or another aircraft’s active traffic system (TAS/TCAD/TCAS).
If you’re not in the vicinity of either or, your transponder will never send a mode A/C reply.
But…your mode A code is also part of your ADS-B broadcast. The ADS-B ground stations will receive that.
TobyADev@reddit
Squawk it regardless. Worst case it makes no impact. Best case it helps you
ElkDiscombobulated49@reddit
.
kent814@reddit
Unrelated but I got given a squawk code of 7707 once for a long XC flight. Was very slow and meticulous putting that one in, and had to double check with the controller too
Drunkenaviator@reddit
I got something like that coming off the tracks the other day, only it was 7505 or something, and the guy sitting next to me reached down to change the code from 2000 to the new one from left to right. I haven't moved that fast in a while!
Aerodynamic_Soda_Can@reddit
Might want to double check the source of "the teaching". There's a lot of bad info out there.
I had a guy try to tell me (I was a CFI student prepping for checkride in USA) that even if I was on VFR flight following in class E and last comms, just squawk VFR and carry on lol. He said "no need to get them all up on a tizzy" as if ghosting them was somehow better than letting them know why you're deaf or mute 💀
Point being: 1, there's lots of bad info out there, you'll want to learn how to detect and reason your way through why it's dumb. And 2, doesn't matter who you think can or can't receive your message, always communicate as clearly as possible, it can only help.
randombrain@reddit
To play along with the premise...
7600 means "comm failure." You can't reach ATC even though you're trying to.
In truly uncontrolled airspace, that is Class F/G, there is no requirement to talk to ATC and there is probably no ability to talk to ATC either. Radio infrastructure isn't free and if the airspace is uncontrolled there's not a lot of impetus to spend that money.
Given that, squawking the code that means "comm failure" could be seen as somewhat pointless in a way that 7500/7700 are not.
Now if you're having trouble you're having trouble, and you should do what you need to do. I certainly don't think squawking 7600 is going to be a bad thing, unless if it distracts you from flying the plane. But the fact that you're in uncontrolled airspace might mean that nobody was expecting you be in comms with you in the first place.
trvsmrtn@reddit
If they can’t see 7600, then they can’t see anything else. Squawk what you’re supposed to and then operate accordingly.
Take_the_Bridge@reddit
I have had numerous alternator failures in long vfr flights. I just shut everything off and chugged long.
This does constitute a comma failure as far as I’m concerned. I’m not receiving radio coms while powered down. Naturally am able to get comms back when I am nearing my destination but for potentially hours I’m noncom. I don’t squawk 7600 because I am not in an emergency. I’m not planning to enter a class C airport.
If I was on an IFR flight plan I would absolutely squawk up. But vfr xc? Not even slightly.
Lanky_Grapefruit671@reddit
Having an alternator failure and then flying for potentially multiple hours is just stupid.
Take_the_Bridge@reddit
Why? Clear blue and my mechanic is where I’m going?
NastyWideOuts@reddit
Why would you not at least squawk 7600? It may not be an emergency but it’s probably good to let someone know you don’t have comms.
Lanky_Grapefruit671@reddit
He wouldn't be able to in this situation because he wouldn't have power to his transponder.
NastyWideOuts@reddit
Oh true. He did mention that he wouldn’t do it because it wasn’t an emergency in his original comment.
Lanky_Grapefruit671@reddit
An alternator failure is not an emergency right then and there because all the electronics can run off the battery for 15-30 minutes depending on how new the battery is.
However, If you do start to run down the battery you will slowly start to lose all electronics, radios, transponder, electrically actuated flaps etc..
I would say if it gets to that point and are going into an airfield that is busy you are an emergency and you should squawk 7600 before it completely dies.
NastyWideOuts@reddit
Right, so in this scenario, I’d think the best option is use your limited time before electronic failure to notify a controller of the failure, let them know you’ll likely lose comms, and notify them of your landing intentions. So squawking 7600 might really not be a priority in that situation, maybe ATC will you to squawk something though. And for me, I’m definitely getting on the ground at the nearest airport, preferably one with services.
Lanky_Grapefruit671@reddit
He wouldn't be able to in this situation because he would end up draining his battery and the transponder wouldn't turn on.
carl-swagan@reddit
Why? Because there is a significant electrical issue with your airplane that you don’t yet know the exact nature of.
It’s probably a non-event, but it could potentially be a short that develops into an electrical fire in flight.
Land at the nearest airport with a mechanic and have them look at it. Who said you have to drop it into a field?
Lanky_Grapefruit671@reddit
Good job you are correct, an alternator failure doesn't mean land it right then and there but it is definitely a land as soon as practical problem.
Flying multiple hours like that is way different than an hour.
iLOVEr3dit@reddit
Absolutely no one is suggesting you should put it down in a field. Landing at the nearest suitable airport is what you should do. Emergency doesn't only mean landing in field
HailChanka69@reddit
I mean, I wouldn’t consider an alternator failure in VFR to be an emergency but I’d still land at the nearest airport with a maintenance facility.
Radios aren’t required but I’d rather keep the situational awareness they provide
brianbrush@reddit
Ask your flight instructor. I've heard you can only fly class G in Canada with a ppl(idk if this is true or not). Ask someone local
loose_as_a_moose@reddit
I am not familiar with the explicit wording in your authorities rules, but it’s likely one of those law questions where it’s technically not required in uncontrolled space but that’s not to say it shall NOT be used. Your school may have drawn your attention to this technicality for example purposes.
The difference between shall and should - but there is zero downside to setting 7X00
If it was me, I’d be setting the appropriate code anyway. If any traffic just so happens to have a data enabled device pullling ADSB from ground stations they’ll know your situation. Likewise an alert controller might even be able to advise traffic.
Build-A-Pilot@reddit
From what I know, there's no harm in squawking 7600/7700 in uncontrolled airspace. As PIC in an emergency, if you feel it's necessary, do it. Even in uncontrolled airspace, if a controller sees that 7600 pop up, he/she can inform a nearby pilot who could possibly try getting in contact with you.
Snoo84995@reddit
If you have a comms failure you squawk 7600. Controlled, uncontrolled, it doesn't matter.
Good-Cardiologist121@reddit
Squawk it when appropriate. You don't know who's facility might light up.
1200, you know nobody is seeing it.
Pseudo-Jonathan@reddit
That doesn't make any sense. Squawking one of those codes will make you visible to any controller who is working that area. Someone is working that airspace, a center controller at the very least. Someone will see your target.
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
I was learning about communication failure and how to troublesome and mitigate the issue.
It was said to not squawk 7600 if one was to be in an uncontrolled area as no one will be able to see it.
So the question is, what about 7700 and 7500 if it happened in an uncontrolled area? What am I missing?
Please downvote this comment until it collapses.
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