I did not witness it, but have a friend that was on the boat. Original boat, a Riptide 41, was coming into the mark. Thet were way ahead of their fleet. They prepared to drop the chute and raise the jib. They were raising the jib inside the chute and were hit by a massive gust. It drove the bow down and ripped a couple sanctions off. The bow person and mast person were tossed off. Rhw JonBouy was tossed in and the mob's got to it quickly. Both had pfds that inflated.
The jib and spinnaker got tangled around the keel and lines were in the sail drive and became disabled. They called it on the radio, mob beacon and 911. Sheriff was expected to be an hour out and the closest boat, a j111 I think was about 30 minutes behind. The J111 picked them up, were able to transfer them to the Sheriff who ran them into shore. They were both taken to the hospital and after minor treatments for hypothermia were both released that evening.
Im sure some will criticize/critique what happened. It sounds like they did what they could. Its worth studying these events, however, to help yourself prepare in case it happens to you.
First off, my experience with RNLI has been first rate. Brits have this right. For those who don't know, in the UK their primary SAR is a volunteer organization (organisation over there *grin*) called the Royal National Lifeboat Institution. American's may be more familiar with BASRA in the Bahamas and VISAR in the BVI. Same model.
In the US our main SAR is the United States Coast Guard (USCG). Puget Sound is big so response times, as in some areas around the UK, can be long. USCG does have their own fixed and rotary wing aircraft (unlike RNLI which calls on RN and RAF for support if I'm correct).
If you call for help on marine VHF 16 in the US you'll get USCG. We have a program called Rescue 21 that provides massive radio coverage. Response will take however long it takes. Boats and even aircraft only move so fast just like your services. USCG Sector (regional headquarters) knows what other resources are available and coordination is generally good although not instantaneous. DSC is a factor here also.
Lots of states and localities also have their own response teams. If you call 911 (your 999) you get local emergency dispatch. Generally and certainly in the Puget Sound area you get a consolidated command center. They have protocols but frankly water emergencies don't come up all that often so the call center uses flip cards which does slow things down. USCG would definitely be on the list as would local fire boats, marine patrol, harbormaster, and likely Earl down at the marina. (<- feeble humor) In more rural areas, 911 is likely to be with the biggest agency e.g. sheriff and they dispatch fire, ambulance, et al as needed. Which command center you get depends on which mobile phone cell you are in. Most small centers will transfer a big call, so Mukilteo WA might send a call to Seattle WA further away but better able to manage a difficult event. Best intentions.
Hope this helps.
Story. A friend of mine mine was a couple of hours ahead of me on Chesapeake Bay after a weekend anchored out. He was single handing. He came across a boat sinking with a lot of people in the water. He called for help on VHF 16 which I heard. USCG came back and Shaun did a great job of describing the situation, gave lat and lon and landmarks, and said he was attempting rescue. USCG dispatched boats from two local stations and a cutter from Sector (regional headquarters) and called--well--everybody. Fire boats from two counties and a city, a City Harbormaster, a county marine patrol, a DHS service (large Federal presence in this area), and state police. I'm probably missing some responder. I'm told it was organized chaos. By the time official services showed up Shaun had rescued one adult and five children. A second adult drowned and was recovered a couple of days later. I'll remind you that Shaun was single handing. I'm immensely proud of my friend.
My niece, Devin, is a member of the Coast Guard and has spent a lot of time serving on the Chesapeake. She just got back there from a two year deployment in the Bering Strait of Alaska aboard an icebreaker.
She can tell you some stories about accidents and crimes on the Chesapeake.
Thank goodness your friend showed up. Tragic about the loss of life, but it could have been so much worse.
Please thank Devin for her service on my behalf and indeed on behalf of all boaters in US waters. She may be interested in r/uscg if she isn't already aware.
Am I correct that Devin was assigned to the Healy? Very important mission. I haven't sailed the Bering Strait but I did spend several winters in the Barents Sea. It's cold up there. *grin*
As a matter of interest, for many years the standard ice removal equipment for decks and railings has been wooden Louisville Slugger baseball bats. Attempts to improve on speed and effectiveness have come to naught.
Depends on where, how far out you are and WHO gets called. Not sure about where this took place, but where I am if you call the sheriff there's a good chance they'll tag the local ems before the CG.
Not sure, we have the Coast Guard. Someone else may be able to give a better answer. The Sheriff marine patrol or fire departments are usually the first responders in inland waters. I live on the Columbia River inland and here its most likely going to be the local fire department.
Do you know what kind of clothing they were wearing? I ask because I'm thinking of wearing my drysuit in the winter/spring a lot more in my own much less sporty sailing and wondered if anybody wears them. If there was a neck gasket that was just a bit more comfortable I'd wear it all the time.
I don't know. I do know that some folks will wear a dry suit type top, which would help. The one thing I thought about with this is whether or not a foam pfd would be of benefit. The upside over an inflating one would be the insulating factor ( if it fits somewhat close/tight) but the inflatable pfds provide more buoyancy and are more visible.
Further confirms my conviction that modern racer/cruisers are just too lightly-built to be truly seaworthy. A medium-intensity gale like this shouldn't be enough to tear the stanchions off the bow and put people in the water. This was no hurricane or Souther Ocean level storm.
I wouldn't be too hasty, the level of detail in this report is very low. I don't think the wind blew the stanchions off. It is indeed possible that a normal rough ride snapped some piece of carbon that wouldn't have failed if it were beefier. That said, in this amount of breeze it is possible to break all sorts of things, weak or strong, during a sail evolution gone sideways. Crew error and bad luck can wrap anything around anything and large forces can result.
You're likely right, but we don't know. There were a lot of posts accusing cargo ships of running down a racer in the Baja Ha Ha. The evidence was starting to be pretty clear, the debris found was a smoking gun... until it was discovered they set their course with the plotter zoomed out and sailed straight as a laser into an island. RIP
You make good points. The deck might have been rotted there from water intrusion and the stanchions might have been in poor repair. I'll stand by my general statements about the seaworthiness of modern racer/cruisers however, regardless of the specifics of this case. See my other comment for me being a curmudgeon.
Interestingly, I felt a little on the old fashioned side because what I kept thinking about was a spinnaker pole for a symmetric chute. Really easy to think of ways to break just about anything other than the mast with one of those... stick it through the life lines and then discover the chute is still attached and isn't coming down, etc. But I don't have enough experience with asymmetrical sailing to know what is similarly dangerous...
Not sure why you're getting downvoted. As a builder, you have no idea how spot on your are. Designers/owners count every f*\^&ing gram, and where it has to be...I seen boats roll out that you could literally put a stiff finger through in places and the only response is "yeah don't touch it there".
If it doesn't have to be heavy, its likely boat cloth in 2 directions at that's it, you couldn't PAY me to take a race boat offshore unless it was designed to race offshore.
Thanks kind sir. I always get downvoted when I talk about seaworthiness and my distaste for modern designs, having spent time on them both coastal and passages and also on "real" cruising yachts, which don't have to be a Westsail 32-level of sluggishness. Sigh.
Thanks for the info! My friend was on Lodos. He was pretty shaken up with the whole experience - especially with MOB being in the water for 45mins. Managing big sails in high winds is very very hard!
As somebody that knows almost nothing, what made it take a whole 45 minutes to rescue them? I completely understand high winds in a light boat, but even then I would guess you could make at least one successful pass quicker than that?
Again, this is just me wondering. Good job to every sailor in this video doing their hardest and successfully rescuing the MOB.
From what I have learned the boat that lost their crew was disabled due to the sails in the water etc. Pulling down these big sails in high winds is very hard and takes time. The rescue boat was not that close, saw the commotion of all the boats frantically dropping their sails, and also had to pull their sails down. Somehow spotted the 2 in the water. It was rough and very windy. Try throwing a fender in the water and retrieving it in calm conditions - not that easy or quick! Exponentially harder in severe weather!
Gosh I can’t imagine the stress they must’ve been under, especially once it had already been 30+ minutes.
I worked at a sailing Boy Scout camp a couple years ago, and worked/lived on an 80ft schooner for the summer. This video is all the worst things they warned us about/trained for combined. Once again, good job on these saikors
I think one part that is missed - it took them a good 30mins just to get to the people in the water! The internet is ripping on them as everyone thinks they did everything wrong :/
That alone make WAY more sense. Typically in the racing videos I’ve seen they are all right next to each other, it if they’re a ways off, there’s not much you can do but sail.
Everything takes longer than you think. Motion, communication, mistakes. Add heavy seas, high and gusty winds. Skill and experience can make things go faster but not fast. An hour can disappear before you know it.
Tip: never step away from the stove for "just a minute." Turn everything off. *grin*
Strongly disagree with u/FlickrPaul. BTDT. I actually run exercises. Do you? Or just read a lot of articles. When you approach from leeward the boat gets blown away from the MOB. What's a MOD? Most of our moderators are smart enough to stay on board. *grin*
Windward approach means the boat leaves a slick to leeward to protect the MOB. Boat stays with the MOB. Some risk of boat drifting over the MOB but I haven't read of any actual events. I know that commercial shipping recovers from the windward side. BTDT also.
Read the literature. The real stuff - not some blowhard in a magazine.
I also disagree with u/duggatron that throttle control was heavy-handed. Seas are bigger than people think from video. Got to keep the bow under control and not run over MOB. Could they have throttled back earlier when they got the line around the MOBs? Maybe. But they had a big ferry close by to avoid also.
It's easy to be an armchair captain. I might have done some small things differently. That isn't important. I wasn't there and they were and they did well and succeeded. The other sailboat which I understand (might be wrong) lost the crew didn't get there first but mad the very hard decision to stay out of the when when the white boat engaged. Think about hard that was.
I find very few people conduct drills. Those who do are advocates for life jackets / harness full time because they understand the challenge of recovering an MOB.
I have done drills outside of class a couple times with a dummy I made from a half full gallon jug. Someone upthread suggested using a jug with a pail attached for more realism in terms of drift and difficulty lifting the MOB on board.
IMA gonna try that next time. I'll use a pail I won't mind losing--just hope I don't get an expensive littering ticket!
I agree u/Plastic_Table_8232 that few people--especially Americans--conduct drills.
I've written elsewhere that a fender with a 5 gallon bucket as a sea anchor has very similar drift characteristics to a MOB.
An excellent study I have since lost track of concluded for getting an MOB back aboard your best bet is a full crew of USNA Midshipmen. While true, not very helpful for most of us.
I don't have rules for PFDs, harness, and tethers. I do rig jacklines whenever available. I live the decision to wear PFDs etc. up to crew judgement. If they can't be trusted to make good decisions I don't want them sailing with me. I had a fascinating discussion with Evans Starzinger on board Hawk quite some years ago about safety gear. He made the point that the implications of PFDs include the increased risk of snagging oneself on rigging and could increase the chances of going overboard in the first place. This brings one back to the matter of judgement of when it most makes sense to wear your PFD.
When I'm called on deck I often carry my PFD and tether with me. Conditions have to be quite unpleasant for me to have it on, but I don't want to have to go below to get it if wearing it seems appropriate. Sometimes I put it on just to get it out of the way of other cockpit activity. When I do choose to wear it, I usually put it on in the cockpit so my crew can bring me up to date on the reason I've been called up rather than have him or her wait longer for me to appear. I make it clear that any time I'm called the only response anyone will hear is "I'm coming" although often followed by "do I have time for pants?" Why is it always 3am, raining, and I'm in my underwear? *sigh*
There is no question that statistically you are safer wearing a PFD than not. Evans' point about times it might be counterproductive is valid which leads to my judgement call rather than rules. USCG (for Americans and those sailing our waters) is famous for asking about life jackets being worn very early in a call for help.
I have been through a lot of relevant training. I've done a lot of practice. So far, I've avoided losing anyone overboard. I have about thirty years left in me and hope to be sailing for at least twenty. With planning, care, and some luck I will die without losing anyone overboard. I wish the same for all of you.
Training and practice are important regardless. Throw in some first aid and CPR training while you're at it.
I haven't seen any studies or even credible reporting. All I have to go by is my own observations and some anecdotal reporting. I've seen some school training in the US in Annapolis and Fort Lauderdale. I've seen Safety at Sea training in Annapolis. I've had USCG come to check on us when we're practicing more than once and seem surprised that we were practicing. I've seen families out for a day sail practicing in the Solent. I've seen sailing clubs in Sweden on the West Coast. I've seen schools in the BVI. That isn't much of a data set to reach a deterministic conclusion. That's all I have to go by to conclude that Americans don't practice as much as sailors in other places.
Nope, just 40 plus years of experience and attending of mandatory courses and practice MOD's before certain events. Never once did we approve from windward and we told especially in big seas and winds it is far safer to come up to someone in a slow and controlled manner and not come at them when you are being pushed by ether wind or waves.
IMO, if you can not hold your boat into the wind, you have no business being on the helm. This was one of the 1st things we had to do when I was 8 years old doing my silver for jr sailing, before you we allow to helm a 420.
To back up the guy you're replying to - the answer is it depends for instance on the motor vessel i run professionally, I can only pickup on the starboard side, so I need to evaluate that in my manuevering and my vessel has a ton of windage. There is a very real possibility that being beam to to leeward I wouldn't be able to maintain distance to recover.
On my Sailboat in have just enough free board that being to windward of the MOB puts them on my low side and if they're unconscious or injured I'm gonna need all the help I can get to do a recovery.
In either case the potential reduction in windwave to leeward is beneficial.
That all being said, there is a risk of being blown over the MOB and that needs to be taken into account by the skipper or coxswain in charge of the recover
That is literally how to rescue a MOB who is conscious and you have an open cockpit.
Get a line to the casualty
Bring them to the boat carefully
Pull them on board
It’s quite obvious a heaving line wasn’t going to work in those conditions so they towed a line with a life ring on the end in a loop around the casualties. This ensured the casualties could catch and grab the line.
The boat likely already tried or considered other approaches to come alongside and decided the risk of the casualties being hit by the boat is too high in that sea state.
The only error was pulling them in too fast without slowing the boat the first time (when the bow blew off). Most likely they were worried about wrapping the line in the prop. That is a fair consideration. Don’t ever want to be rescuing the rescuers.
They nailed it the second time. Both survived. Clearly a win.
Why isn't there a floating line for rescues? I'm not much of a sailor so forgive my ignorance. Is it just that MOBs aren't that common? For a conscious MOB wearing a PFD, a waterski rope with a stopper not every few feet and the MOB could pull themselves to the boat hand-over-hand. I pickup waterskiers with the boat leeward under the premise that they can pull themselves in if the boat drifts.
With an unconscious MOB, I was taught that the boat should be windward of the MOB to provide protection and to allow the crew to retrieve the MOB.
I'm just a recreational boater who doesn't go into blue water and trying to learn. I'm not challenging you.
The line they’re using might in fact be polypropylene and floats. But even then, it is going to be a hard wired instinct to avoid reversing over a line. Floating lines can still get sucked under the boat and foul the prop.
A heaving line would have been on board. That is a floating rope designed to throw to the MOB when alongside. The problem with those is they’re fairly short and really best for calm weather.
In terms of the MOB pulling themselves in, IMO it’s always going to be best to assume they should just focus on holding on. Let the crew do the hard work.
Yes, if you are attempting to pick up a MOB who can’t help themselves, you should 100% position yourself upwind and drift down onto them. But this still comes with risk of hitting them.
Don’t stress on challenging what is just my educated opinion. You should definitely think critically and challenge any advice/opinions from anyone (especially online). That is part of good seamanship.
All emergency situations are unique. While you want good rules of thumb, you also need broad understanding of risks to manage and be able to adapt to the actual situation.
For example in this case the usual advice of immediately doing a quick stop or figure 8 doesn’t even apply. The boat making the rescue isn’t the boat the MOB came from.
So the priority just becomes making contact with the casualty, then get them aboard with the least risk of being injured by the hull. That is what I see happening in the video.
Thank you. This looks like a relatively well coordinated rescue to me as a casual boater, but I'm happy to learn new things.
It's hard for me to understand all of the criticism here. The first approach was sloppy but I'm guessing that's because the crew probably rarely or maybe never handled this boat in rough seas under motor before.
They realized the attempt failed and went around again. The crew handling the line were very conscientious about getting it in the right place and also not fouling the prop. And then once the MOB had the line, they maneuvered such that the boat's momentum wouldn't interfere with getting the MOB hauled in while still using enough motor to have rudder authority.
And I agree with you that, if the MOB is conscious, why risk reversing the engine. Not just the risk of the line fouling, but engines that are put into reverse when the boat is moving sometimes stall. Then there would be a bigger problem.
I'm sure there are people who do rescues professionally and for them maybe this was pretty sloppy. But for a crew that primarily focuses on sailing races, it looks like commendable seamanship to me.
And thank you for the comments and discussion. I hope I am never involved in a rescue at sea, but if I ever am, I'm glad to have had this chance to think more about it in advance.
The comments I and others made aren't meant to be nasty (at least not the ones I read--I may have missed some). The people in the second boat are heroes and they succeeded in saving lives that could have been lost otherwise.
Best definition of "hero" I can think of.
What I and others are commenting on are some of the difficulties this important video shows. It's an opportunity to see what can go wrong in a rescue attempt. In part, it is a way to mentally rehearse what we would need to do if we find ourselves in a similar situation.
They were very lucky after that long in the water the COB had the strength to hang on to the line and be pulled to the transom. Cold water is a strength killer.
Pretty heavy-handed with the throttle too. We get a lot of opportunities to practice in heavy winds on the west coast, but this seemed pretty clumsy all around. I did my MOB drills for my ASA in 30kt gusts on a J24. One of the other guys on the boat was throwing up. Good practice considering a sea state like this is a lot more likely to lead to a MOB.
Exactly. Emergencies rarely happen in dead calm conditions. I think people just aren't prepared for how difficult even a moderate sea makes doing stuff.
from instructors I have talked to MOB in real life is significantly more difficult than people expect.
in retrospect I think perhaps it looks like they could have done things better but who knows why they did what they did, I think saving two people and getting them on to the boat is a major plus and we should try to learn what they did correctly also
I don't think pulling them downwind was the reason of failed 1st attempt, why would it be the case, and wouldn't pulling them upwind (against waves and wind) be even worse?
When you approach MOB from upwind, you usually get blown down faster than them, so you will end up downwind from them anyways.
I don't think pulling them downwind was the reason of failed 1st attempt, why would it be the case, and wouldn't pulling them upwind (against waves and wind) be even worse?
The 1st attempt failed because the driver just let the boat drift and the load on the line overcame the swimmers, they literally could not hold on.
The fact they were pulling them at all is the problem.
Going upwind you can keep your boat still by feathering the throttle and let the boat come back to the MOD while they are being pulled in and once they are within 1-2M you go to neutral.
When you approach MOB from upwind, you usually get blown down faster than them, so you will end up downwind from them anyways.
I think you meant to say from downwind and no you will not get blown down, as you will control your boat into the wind once you pass by. You have far more control of your boat while your bow is into the wind than the stern.
You also do not go 1/2 as fast as they are, as you can see on the 2nd attempt how much one of them gets pulled. @ 1:56 they are getting dragged again.
You have far more control of your boat while your bow is into the wind than the stern.
In 20+ knots this is objectively wrong and IMO dangerous advice. Your bow will blow off long before you get slow enough to be near a casualty in the water.
MRA should be ashamed of themselves. The best part of their page is the link to USNA video. Listen carefully starting here about the major issue approaching the MOB from leeward. The reference to '96 and '05 work in San Fransisco Bay is what led to two other really good reports.
Note that the demonstration was in very light air in quite sheltered waters on Severn River between USNA and DTNSRDC-Annapolis. Excellent quick stop for light air.
The MRA paper shows an entirely unrealistic Quick Stop. If you lose someone overboard you aren't heading toward them. See the USNA video.
Figure 8 and the Williamson turn are now discouraged by credible authorities.
Mr. DeWolfe has not kept up with best practice, nor has Marblehead Race Association. Quite sad.
Quick stop and figure 8 are both manoeuvres for a boat with sails up. They’re also aimed at rescuing a MOB who isn’t able to assist with their own rescue (unconscious). In that case your goal is to end up hove-to to windward so that you are slowly drifting onto the MOB to allow you to hook them.
You’ll note that in this video the rescue boat does not have sails up and is motoring. The MOBs are both conscious and able to assist with their rescue. The approach was fine for the situation.
Today, the Quick Stop remains a valuable rescue option for most boats, but like so many of the possible return and rescue techniques, it has its time and place. It may be exactly the right approach for our 40-foot displacement sloop on the way to the South Pacific, but may not work on a boat with different handling characteristics. For example, a 60-foot racing sloop blasting downwind under spinnaker, a rapid round up could cause significant damage that inhibits the boat’s capability to return to the PIW. It also risks throwing more crew overboard in the process. Once again, as in any safety-related emergency, its is important to be flexible. Well before any possible MOB, accurately assess the best way to rescue a PIW overboard as swiftly and safely as possible. Seamanship, experience, sound judgement, and thorough training all increase your odds of success.
Exactly what the crew look to have done in this situation.. and…
The close reach is by far and away the safest point of sail to make the approach because of the ease at which speed can be increased or decreased without making course changes.
Looked like the rescue boat approached on a reach to my eye.
This all echos what I was taught when doing Advanced Sea Survival training and RYA Day Skipper.
Keep in mind the ferry arrived during the rescue. You're only seeing the last 2 attempts. You have no idea what they tried before this and what did and didnt work.
The 1st attempt failed because the driver just let the boat drift and the load on the line overcame the swimmers, they literally could not hold on.
The fact they were pulling them at all is the problem.
Agreed. Brief kick in reverse or two to stop the boat would be in order.
I think you meant to say from downwind and no you will not get blown down, as you will control your boat into the wind once you pass by. You have far more control of your boat while your bow is into the wind than the stern.
Yes, I wanted to say from downwind. And yes, even though you have more control with bow into wind, when bow gets more turned slightly downwind (and in the conditions like in the video it's not a question of "if" but "when"), the wind grabs the bow and turns you no matter what you do.
when you're tired and wet you're not going to be able to hold on while being dragged in any direction.
they shouldn't be pulling them in any direction with the boat. the boat should be endeavouring to be as close & slow as possible. whether you're doing it from above or below is preference based on the conditions & the boat's handling ability.
in this case, i think the fact that they hadn't lashed the sails down securely was causing them to lose the bow at slow speed. and given that the main wasn't fully down meant they accelerated when they turned downwind
It's easy to second guess their techique but when you're out there it's a lot more difficult. They were fighting 30 knots winds, cold, exhaustion and time. When you practice MOB a few times it seems like it's not too hard to get the hang of it but you're not usually practicing in conditions where people actually go overboard. Throwing in sustained 25 knot winds, over 35 gusts makes it hard to control the boat. Not saying they couldn't have done better but no one is going to do it perfectly in conditions like that.
Fortunately the ferry arrived and blocked the waves a bit but not so much the wind.
Isn’t this a lifesling rescue? Don’t think there is an approach there, just circle and pull them in. Does look like the first pass failed, and transom boarding can be risky in chop, but looked ok here.
I have stickied this as its a really good video that we can all learn from and discuss.
Please remember be civil to each other (its in the rules) and be positive.
Its very rare that this happens and is filmed so well.
I'm super glad everyone was recovered OK. From the best description I read the incident happened when a large sail (Spinnaker?) was being handled/doused and a rogue gust of wind grabbed it and it instantly filled and delivered a very stiff blow to the boat and rigging when the slack on the sheets ran out.
That sort of thing is flat out dangerous, no matter how tough you or your boat is. The accident damaged and disabled the boat at the same time it threw two crew members overboard. The boat could not be controlled to recover them and radioed for help. What else ya gonna do?
Also seems like they got a MOB pole and float to the people in the water. Thank Gawd.
The second sailboat, with the hastily dropped sails, got the radio call and motored over as fast as they were able. That was faster than the official rescue service.
Once they got there, they started circling the People In the Water (PIW) dragging their lifesling behind them, hoping the PIW could latch onto it. Didn't work the first time because tired people aren't great and hanging onto a float moving at boat speed in 30 knots of wind.
This is where I start to criticize a little bit. When the video started, I thought the MOB pole was a buoy and wondered what the big deal was, because the lee shore looked to be far away. I didn't realize they were circling people in the water and hoping they could hold onto the lifesling. That is NOT how the ASA taught me the Man Overboard drill.
They had motor power. They should have maneuvered directly downwind of the PIW after assigning someone to constantly monitor the PIWs' position (something made a LOT easier because of the MOB pole).
After getting downwind of the PIW, the rescuing boat should have headed directly toward them at speed of 2-3 knots*, directly upwind. When the bow of the boat reached the PIW, the helm person should have put the boat into neutral while the rest of the crew extended lines or ideally, a halyard with a loop in it, to the PIW. They could also use mooring lines with a big bowline loop tied at one end for each PIW. Get them into the loop between the bow and amidship, and then attach the main halyard to the small loop on the mooring line and use the winch to help lift the PIW into the boat at the back.
I'm not criticizing the people in the video. They reacted as best they knew and succeeded in rescuing two PIW in tough conditions.
But watching them struggle made me realize the wisdom of the way we were taught by the ASA.
*In less windy conditions, I would have said 1-2 knots.
Some additional gripes from me. First of all, it's quite distressing that it took 47 minutes to get those crew out of the cold water. You can see in the video that it looks like the Lifesling was yanked away from the swimmers and they had to try again, yet the MOBs didn't use it, they hung on to the tow rope and were pulled in. The video clearly shows the difficulty of retrieving MOBs in frankly not terribly difficult conditions. Supposedly there was a WA ferry to windward acting as a kind of wind break also.
The boat had apparently no retrieval system ready to go when they got the crew to the stern. Just hauled them up over the transom. Worked because a racer carries a lot of crew; would not work for a couple out sailing alone, or possibly even two couples where three were still in the boat. The transom of most boats is not as easy to work at as that open-transom designed racer.
Note what the stern is doing in those waves. Those are not BIG waves, but that stern is flying up and down through several feet of vertical travel. I remember how tricky getting aboard a Jeaneau 37 we chartered in the Caribbean from the dinghy was in typical Caribbean sea conditions. The swim platform was constantly threatening to knock someone directly off the dink. Note that the center of that boat is the part that moves the least in conditions like these making a side entry safer and easier. But lots of boats today only have a lifeline gate midships, no ladder accommodations.
IIRC from our Lifeslings, the idea is the MOB has the harness around them and the retrieval line can then be attached to some sort of lifting line--like a halyard I suppose--which in turn can be on a winch. That probably won't work with the line at the side since it could pop out of the masthead sheave and jam. How do you get someone out of the water like that?
One way is to throw them a line and they can double it and tie a large bowline which will make two loops--putting their legs through those loops will create a Q&D lifting harness. The technique I was taught to tie a bowline around my waist is how this is done. Perhaps I'll post a video. With practice this method can be tied blindfolded easily. Then the line has to have a fair lead to a winch--perhaps over the stern a topping lift could be used. It's a good idea to keep some snatch blocks on board and have a setup planned and tested to take a spare halyard to a MOB where it won't jam. Again, a captain can't depend on sheer manpower to retrieve crew.
I've had a couple of near misses--the most serious was an elderly person getting into a dinghy off a quay in Antigua--that would have almost certainly resulted in a drowning since there was no apparent way to get them out of the water if that happened. I urge all sailors to run these drills and even try to retrieve people who are willing to go overboard under safe conditions. It's quite fortunate this didn't result in more serious consequences.
Info: I was out there but did not see this incident in person. Heard a lot of radio chatter and collected some stories to relay:
Center Sound series race. We saw winds pushing up into the low 30knot range.
Lifeline failure caused 2 sailors to go overboard. Lodos (white boat) was behind them and proceeded to deploy rescue equipment . Other boats circling on standby.
Ferry boat (from where the film was taken) provided wind break. Film credit Troy Hutt .
Both sailors recovered after a long period in the water (some estimates at 45 minutes total). Both sailors very hypothermic, transferred to sheriff boat, then to ambulance and ER. Both warmed up and doing fine.
Both sailors released after warming and checkups and reported to be doing fine.
Be careful out there friends. It can happen to anyone at anytime.
Lifeline failure. OUCH. Good thing this was on the race course. Kudos to all those helping.
I've done things racing I wouldn't dare dream of doing offshore. Relying on lifelines being one of the first. Checking them before leaving being much higher on that list,, ya' know, just in "case"...
45 minutes when everyone reacts almost immediately, with multiple vessels nearby, and with full crew where everyone kinda knows what they're doing. Ouch.
I think I should reconsider ideas about possible MOB recovery in non-benign conditions when I'm on the boat with just my friend.
Yes, but hard disagree on "everyone kinda knows what they're doing". They did not follow standard D or figure 8 recovery approaches, just to start. Well done to Lodos though, for finally getting it.
Yah. The skipper of the white yacht was poorly placed for most of that video. With more context (longer video showing the rest of the rescue operation), we might see reasons for that.
The two obvious surprises were dragging the BOBs to the point of losing them, then placing the boat downwind of them after the 180° turn.
TBH recovery was already ongoing, and "throw it as close as possible and circle the causalty" is suggested mode of operation for Lifesling or other tied throwable devices...
The ferry could have launched one of their boats, but you get to a point where there are too many boats in the water. And that's a real problem in the Puget Sound.
The others more than likely stood off at the ready.
I remember being on the Clinton-Mukilteo run as a passenger back in the 1990s, when we responded to an MOB. Guy almost got hit by a rescuer when everyone swarmed the spot.
There is a podcast 'the mariner' where he reviews the death of a skipper in an offshore race.
he got propelled into the ocean and was insight of the yacht all the time but in the time it took them to pick him up he had died... while they were watching.
I found this very useful going through the accident report and what can be learnt from this.
I have commented buried in sub threads. Some overall thoughts here.
N.B. I'm using MOB (man overboard) here. COB (crew overboard) and POB (person overboard) are perfectly acceptable. I do not intend any offense or disrespect. The person in the water is not concerned with gender or identity.
u/jh937hfiu3hrhv9 https://www.reddit.com/r/sailing/comments/1j88qgp/comment/mh3fcqn/ Very good Yachting World article. Read carefully as they are using terminology as windward and leeward from a different perspective than we have used in this thread. The article uses the perspective of the MOB rather than the boat.
There was a study that presented a meta analysis of several hundred MOB events published some years ago. I can't find it although I've looked for it several times. It was outstanding work. If anyone stumbles across it please post a link. Some of my comments below draw from that study report.
There has been some misunderstanding and misinformation presented as fact.
Best practice is to recover with the boat to windward of the MOB. From small boats to ships, the boat will protect the MOB from wind and wave and keep the boat in contact with the MOB. There is some risk of blowing over the MOB but that is not as big a problem as blowing away from MOB. This was clear from the real world experience in the large study I can't find a copy of. *sigh*
Quick stop is best practice under sail or under power. The Williamson turn and figure 8 are rarely advantageous.
Not relevant to this event, there is no tech better than an AIS-SART.
u/Alaszune is the only commenter to note there are hazards to a recovery over the transom. MOBs end up under the boat and have tons of pitching boat land on their heads. The technical term for that is "bad."
Some discussion here about sails up or down. In my mind much depends on the capability of the crew. The big study I can't find cited one incident after another in which sails were dropped, a line was in the water, there was a prop wrap, and the MOB drowned in sight of "rescue" because the boat was disabled. That said, being under power means more options. I won't second guess those sort of decisions if I'm not there.
Practice for MOB recovery is important. It's a lot harder than it looks. The best "target" for practice I'm aware of is a fender and a five gallon bucket. The bucket acts like a sea anchor and the combination drifts with wind and sea like a person. Getting a wet, clothed person out of the water is really hard.
There has been some discussion about various training programs that include MOB material. I have very strong opinions on this matter. Education is useful to the extent that the student is able to actually apply what is covered especially in extremis. Real world MOB events are definitely extreme. Without application the certification, including well regarded ones like SOS and STCW are just pieces of paper on your "I love me" wall. Sadly, I see some examples of "book larnin'" in this thread. To be fair, doing something once, having it work out, and becoming wedded to that approach is also bad. It behooves us to learn from the mistakes of others so we can go on to make new and creative mistakes from which others can learn.
The skipper did a poor job positioning the boat to recover these sailors, why on earth would he round them to windward? Why are they going so fast? Why even bother with the sails you should have enough control to do this without turning on the engine. It’s ideal sailing conditions in this video, these people need to train this more often.
You are watching an event from 60 feet up on the ferry. You cannot accurately judge the conditions. The winds were 25 knots and gusting over 35, far from ideal. The boat they fell off of was about 40" and essentially pitch polled breaking some stantions and throwing them over board. Again, not ideal. Also before the ferry arrived they rescuers were also fighting the waves.
I was not there but my son was. He was on the boat at the end of the video, Absolutely.
I grew up sailing in Chicago. This is not uncommon conditions for me. I’m getting downvoted but whatever but from experience I would have gone about it a different way. I’m happy no one got hurt none the less
And this is why you stay on the boat. Actual storm, middle of the ocean at night, you're completely dead. This was relatively easy conditions, with a giant ferry providing a wind break and multiple vessels assisting, and it still took them 45 minutes.
FODamage@reddit
What is the long yellow inflatable tube? Is that a Dan Buoy in action?
mullranger26@reddit
I did not witness it, but have a friend that was on the boat. Original boat, a Riptide 41, was coming into the mark. Thet were way ahead of their fleet. They prepared to drop the chute and raise the jib. They were raising the jib inside the chute and were hit by a massive gust. It drove the bow down and ripped a couple sanctions off. The bow person and mast person were tossed off. Rhw JonBouy was tossed in and the mob's got to it quickly. Both had pfds that inflated. The jib and spinnaker got tangled around the keel and lines were in the sail drive and became disabled. They called it on the radio, mob beacon and 911. Sheriff was expected to be an hour out and the closest boat, a j111 I think was about 30 minutes behind. The J111 picked them up, were able to transfer them to the Sheriff who ran them into shore. They were both taken to the hospital and after minor treatments for hypothermia were both released that evening.
Im sure some will criticize/critique what happened. It sounds like they did what they could. Its worth studying these events, however, to help yourself prepare in case it happens to you.
NetCaptain@reddit
sheriff ? does the USA not have dedicated fast response organisations à la the UK’s RNLI ? www.RNLI.org
SVAuspicious@reddit
u/NetCaptain,
First off, my experience with RNLI has been first rate. Brits have this right. For those who don't know, in the UK their primary SAR is a volunteer organization (organisation over there *grin*) called the Royal National Lifeboat Institution. American's may be more familiar with BASRA in the Bahamas and VISAR in the BVI. Same model.
In the US our main SAR is the United States Coast Guard (USCG). Puget Sound is big so response times, as in some areas around the UK, can be long. USCG does have their own fixed and rotary wing aircraft (unlike RNLI which calls on RN and RAF for support if I'm correct).
If you call for help on marine VHF 16 in the US you'll get USCG. We have a program called Rescue 21 that provides massive radio coverage. Response will take however long it takes. Boats and even aircraft only move so fast just like your services. USCG Sector (regional headquarters) knows what other resources are available and coordination is generally good although not instantaneous. DSC is a factor here also.
Lots of states and localities also have their own response teams. If you call 911 (your 999) you get local emergency dispatch. Generally and certainly in the Puget Sound area you get a consolidated command center. They have protocols but frankly water emergencies don't come up all that often so the call center uses flip cards which does slow things down. USCG would definitely be on the list as would local fire boats, marine patrol, harbormaster, and likely Earl down at the marina. (<- feeble humor) In more rural areas, 911 is likely to be with the biggest agency e.g. sheriff and they dispatch fire, ambulance, et al as needed. Which command center you get depends on which mobile phone cell you are in. Most small centers will transfer a big call, so Mukilteo WA might send a call to Seattle WA further away but better able to manage a difficult event. Best intentions.
Hope this helps.
Story. A friend of mine mine was a couple of hours ahead of me on Chesapeake Bay after a weekend anchored out. He was single handing. He came across a boat sinking with a lot of people in the water. He called for help on VHF 16 which I heard. USCG came back and Shaun did a great job of describing the situation, gave lat and lon and landmarks, and said he was attempting rescue. USCG dispatched boats from two local stations and a cutter from Sector (regional headquarters) and called--well--everybody. Fire boats from two counties and a city, a City Harbormaster, a county marine patrol, a DHS service (large Federal presence in this area), and state police. I'm probably missing some responder. I'm told it was organized chaos. By the time official services showed up Shaun had rescued one adult and five children. A second adult drowned and was recovered a couple of days later. I'll remind you that Shaun was single handing. I'm immensely proud of my friend.
Historical-Read7581@reddit
My niece, Devin, is a member of the Coast Guard and has spent a lot of time serving on the Chesapeake. She just got back there from a two year deployment in the Bering Strait of Alaska aboard an icebreaker.
She can tell you some stories about accidents and crimes on the Chesapeake.
Thank goodness your friend showed up. Tragic about the loss of life, but it could have been so much worse.
SVAuspicious@reddit
Please thank Devin for her service on my behalf and indeed on behalf of all boaters in US waters. She may be interested in r/uscg if she isn't already aware.
Am I correct that Devin was assigned to the Healy? Very important mission. I haven't sailed the Bering Strait but I did spend several winters in the Barents Sea. It's cold up there. *grin*
As a matter of interest, for many years the standard ice removal equipment for decks and railings has been wooden Louisville Slugger baseball bats. Attempts to improve on speed and effectiveness have come to naught.
beamin1@reddit
Depends on where, how far out you are and WHO gets called. Not sure about where this took place, but where I am if you call the sheriff there's a good chance they'll tag the local ems before the CG.
mullranger26@reddit
Not sure, we have the Coast Guard. Someone else may be able to give a better answer. The Sheriff marine patrol or fire departments are usually the first responders in inland waters. I live on the Columbia River inland and here its most likely going to be the local fire department.
pembquist@reddit
Do you know what kind of clothing they were wearing? I ask because I'm thinking of wearing my drysuit in the winter/spring a lot more in my own much less sporty sailing and wondered if anybody wears them. If there was a neck gasket that was just a bit more comfortable I'd wear it all the time.
mullranger26@reddit
I don't know. I do know that some folks will wear a dry suit type top, which would help. The one thing I thought about with this is whether or not a foam pfd would be of benefit. The upside over an inflating one would be the insulating factor ( if it fits somewhat close/tight) but the inflatable pfds provide more buoyancy and are more visible.
johnbro27@reddit
Further confirms my conviction that modern racer/cruisers are just too lightly-built to be truly seaworthy. A medium-intensity gale like this shouldn't be enough to tear the stanchions off the bow and put people in the water. This was no hurricane or Souther Ocean level storm.
chrisxls@reddit
I wouldn't be too hasty, the level of detail in this report is very low. I don't think the wind blew the stanchions off. It is indeed possible that a normal rough ride snapped some piece of carbon that wouldn't have failed if it were beefier. That said, in this amount of breeze it is possible to break all sorts of things, weak or strong, during a sail evolution gone sideways. Crew error and bad luck can wrap anything around anything and large forces can result.
You're likely right, but we don't know. There were a lot of posts accusing cargo ships of running down a racer in the Baja Ha Ha. The evidence was starting to be pretty clear, the debris found was a smoking gun... until it was discovered they set their course with the plotter zoomed out and sailed straight as a laser into an island. RIP
johnbro27@reddit
You make good points. The deck might have been rotted there from water intrusion and the stanchions might have been in poor repair. I'll stand by my general statements about the seaworthiness of modern racer/cruisers however, regardless of the specifics of this case. See my other comment for me being a curmudgeon.
chrisxls@reddit
Interestingly, I felt a little on the old fashioned side because what I kept thinking about was a spinnaker pole for a symmetric chute. Really easy to think of ways to break just about anything other than the mast with one of those... stick it through the life lines and then discover the chute is still attached and isn't coming down, etc. But I don't have enough experience with asymmetrical sailing to know what is similarly dangerous...
chrisxls@reddit
Curmudgeons always welcome... it's a sailing forum 🤣 cheers
beamin1@reddit
Not sure why you're getting downvoted. As a builder, you have no idea how spot on your are. Designers/owners count every f*\^&ing gram, and where it has to be...I seen boats roll out that you could literally put a stiff finger through in places and the only response is "yeah don't touch it there".
If it doesn't have to be heavy, its likely boat cloth in 2 directions at that's it, you couldn't PAY me to take a race boat offshore unless it was designed to race offshore.
johnbro27@reddit
Thanks kind sir. I always get downvoted when I talk about seaworthiness and my distaste for modern designs, having spent time on them both coastal and passages and also on "real" cruising yachts, which don't have to be a Westsail 32-level of sluggishness. Sigh.
phliff@reddit
Thanks for the info! My friend was on Lodos. He was pretty shaken up with the whole experience - especially with MOB being in the water for 45mins. Managing big sails in high winds is very very hard!
nerdycarguy18@reddit
As somebody that knows almost nothing, what made it take a whole 45 minutes to rescue them? I completely understand high winds in a light boat, but even then I would guess you could make at least one successful pass quicker than that?
Again, this is just me wondering. Good job to every sailor in this video doing their hardest and successfully rescuing the MOB.
phliff@reddit
From what I have learned the boat that lost their crew was disabled due to the sails in the water etc. Pulling down these big sails in high winds is very hard and takes time. The rescue boat was not that close, saw the commotion of all the boats frantically dropping their sails, and also had to pull their sails down. Somehow spotted the 2 in the water. It was rough and very windy. Try throwing a fender in the water and retrieving it in calm conditions - not that easy or quick! Exponentially harder in severe weather!
nerdycarguy18@reddit
Gosh I can’t imagine the stress they must’ve been under, especially once it had already been 30+ minutes.
I worked at a sailing Boy Scout camp a couple years ago, and worked/lived on an 80ft schooner for the summer. This video is all the worst things they warned us about/trained for combined. Once again, good job on these saikors
phliff@reddit
I think one part that is missed - it took them a good 30mins just to get to the people in the water! The internet is ripping on them as everyone thinks they did everything wrong :/
nerdycarguy18@reddit
That alone make WAY more sense. Typically in the racing videos I’ve seen they are all right next to each other, it if they’re a ways off, there’s not much you can do but sail.
SVAuspicious@reddit
Upvote for a good question.
Everything takes longer than you think. Motion, communication, mistakes. Add heavy seas, high and gusty winds. Skill and experience can make things go faster but not fast. An hour can disappear before you know it.
Tip: never step away from the stove for "just a minute." Turn everything off. *grin*
SailorMDI@reddit
Thanks for the update. Sounds like a difficult time.
FlickrPaul@reddit
And that kids is not how you recover a MOD.
You always approach from a leward position, never windward.
They were pulling the people downwind at one point and even was the reason why they failed the 1st time.
SVAuspicious@reddit
Strongly disagree with u/FlickrPaul. BTDT. I actually run exercises. Do you? Or just read a lot of articles. When you approach from leeward the boat gets blown away from the MOB. What's a MOD? Most of our moderators are smart enough to stay on board. *grin*
Windward approach means the boat leaves a slick to leeward to protect the MOB. Boat stays with the MOB. Some risk of boat drifting over the MOB but I haven't read of any actual events. I know that commercial shipping recovers from the windward side. BTDT also.
Read the literature. The real stuff - not some blowhard in a magazine.
I also disagree with u/duggatron that throttle control was heavy-handed. Seas are bigger than people think from video. Got to keep the bow under control and not run over MOB. Could they have throttled back earlier when they got the line around the MOBs? Maybe. But they had a big ferry close by to avoid also.
It's easy to be an armchair captain. I might have done some small things differently. That isn't important. I wasn't there and they were and they did well and succeeded. The other sailboat which I understand (might be wrong) lost the crew didn't get there first but mad the very hard decision to stay out of the when when the white boat engaged. Think about hard that was.
Plastic_Table_8232@reddit
I find very few people conduct drills. Those who do are advocates for life jackets / harness full time because they understand the challenge of recovering an MOB.
Historical-Read7581@reddit
I have done drills outside of class a couple times with a dummy I made from a half full gallon jug. Someone upthread suggested using a jug with a pail attached for more realism in terms of drift and difficulty lifting the MOB on board.
IMA gonna try that next time. I'll use a pail I won't mind losing--just hope I don't get an expensive littering ticket!
SVAuspicious@reddit
I agree u/Plastic_Table_8232 that few people--especially Americans--conduct drills.
I've written elsewhere that a fender with a 5 gallon bucket as a sea anchor has very similar drift characteristics to a MOB.
An excellent study I have since lost track of concluded for getting an MOB back aboard your best bet is a full crew of USNA Midshipmen. While true, not very helpful for most of us.
I don't have rules for PFDs, harness, and tethers. I do rig jacklines whenever available. I live the decision to wear PFDs etc. up to crew judgement. If they can't be trusted to make good decisions I don't want them sailing with me. I had a fascinating discussion with Evans Starzinger on board Hawk quite some years ago about safety gear. He made the point that the implications of PFDs include the increased risk of snagging oneself on rigging and could increase the chances of going overboard in the first place. This brings one back to the matter of judgement of when it most makes sense to wear your PFD.
When I'm called on deck I often carry my PFD and tether with me. Conditions have to be quite unpleasant for me to have it on, but I don't want to have to go below to get it if wearing it seems appropriate. Sometimes I put it on just to get it out of the way of other cockpit activity. When I do choose to wear it, I usually put it on in the cockpit so my crew can bring me up to date on the reason I've been called up rather than have him or her wait longer for me to appear. I make it clear that any time I'm called the only response anyone will hear is "I'm coming" although often followed by "do I have time for pants?" Why is it always 3am, raining, and I'm in my underwear? *sigh*
There is no question that statistically you are safer wearing a PFD than not. Evans' point about times it might be counterproductive is valid which leads to my judgement call rather than rules. USCG (for Americans and those sailing our waters) is famous for asking about life jackets being worn very early in a call for help.
I have been through a lot of relevant training. I've done a lot of practice. So far, I've avoided losing anyone overboard. I have about thirty years left in me and hope to be sailing for at least twenty. With planning, care, and some luck I will die without losing anyone overboard. I wish the same for all of you.
Training and practice are important regardless. Throw in some first aid and CPR training while you're at it.
sail fast and eat well, dave
Plastic_Table_8232@reddit
Cheers mate. Appreciate and understand your approach. Are drills more common abroad?
SVAuspicious@reddit
I haven't seen any studies or even credible reporting. All I have to go by is my own observations and some anecdotal reporting. I've seen some school training in the US in Annapolis and Fort Lauderdale. I've seen Safety at Sea training in Annapolis. I've had USCG come to check on us when we're practicing more than once and seem surprised that we were practicing. I've seen families out for a day sail practicing in the Solent. I've seen sailing clubs in Sweden on the West Coast. I've seen schools in the BVI. That isn't much of a data set to reach a deterministic conclusion. That's all I have to go by to conclude that Americans don't practice as much as sailors in other places.
FlickrPaul@reddit
> Do you?
Nope, just 40 plus years of experience and attending of mandatory courses and practice MOD's before certain events. Never once did we approve from windward and we told especially in big seas and winds it is far safer to come up to someone in a slow and controlled manner and not come at them when you are being pushed by ether wind or waves.
IMO, if you can not hold your boat into the wind, you have no business being on the helm. This was one of the 1st things we had to do when I was 8 years old doing my silver for jr sailing, before you we allow to helm a 420.
Celtic12@reddit
To back up the guy you're replying to - the answer is it depends for instance on the motor vessel i run professionally, I can only pickup on the starboard side, so I need to evaluate that in my manuevering and my vessel has a ton of windage. There is a very real possibility that being beam to to leeward I wouldn't be able to maintain distance to recover.
On my Sailboat in have just enough free board that being to windward of the MOB puts them on my low side and if they're unconscious or injured I'm gonna need all the help I can get to do a recovery.
In either case the potential reduction in windwave to leeward is beneficial.
That all being said, there is a risk of being blown over the MOB and that needs to be taken into account by the skipper or coxswain in charge of the recover
But hey that's just like my professional opinion.
opticalminefield@reddit
That is literally how to rescue a MOB who is conscious and you have an open cockpit.
It’s quite obvious a heaving line wasn’t going to work in those conditions so they towed a line with a life ring on the end in a loop around the casualties. This ensured the casualties could catch and grab the line.
The boat likely already tried or considered other approaches to come alongside and decided the risk of the casualties being hit by the boat is too high in that sea state.
The only error was pulling them in too fast without slowing the boat the first time (when the bow blew off). Most likely they were worried about wrapping the line in the prop. That is a fair consideration. Don’t ever want to be rescuing the rescuers.
They nailed it the second time. Both survived. Clearly a win.
National-Gur5958@reddit
Why isn't there a floating line for rescues? I'm not much of a sailor so forgive my ignorance. Is it just that MOBs aren't that common? For a conscious MOB wearing a PFD, a waterski rope with a stopper not every few feet and the MOB could pull themselves to the boat hand-over-hand. I pickup waterskiers with the boat leeward under the premise that they can pull themselves in if the boat drifts.
With an unconscious MOB, I was taught that the boat should be windward of the MOB to provide protection and to allow the crew to retrieve the MOB.
I'm just a recreational boater who doesn't go into blue water and trying to learn. I'm not challenging you.
opticalminefield@reddit
All good questions.
The line they’re using might in fact be polypropylene and floats. But even then, it is going to be a hard wired instinct to avoid reversing over a line. Floating lines can still get sucked under the boat and foul the prop.
A heaving line would have been on board. That is a floating rope designed to throw to the MOB when alongside. The problem with those is they’re fairly short and really best for calm weather.
In terms of the MOB pulling themselves in, IMO it’s always going to be best to assume they should just focus on holding on. Let the crew do the hard work.
Yes, if you are attempting to pick up a MOB who can’t help themselves, you should 100% position yourself upwind and drift down onto them. But this still comes with risk of hitting them.
Don’t stress on challenging what is just my educated opinion. You should definitely think critically and challenge any advice/opinions from anyone (especially online). That is part of good seamanship.
All emergency situations are unique. While you want good rules of thumb, you also need broad understanding of risks to manage and be able to adapt to the actual situation.
For example in this case the usual advice of immediately doing a quick stop or figure 8 doesn’t even apply. The boat making the rescue isn’t the boat the MOB came from.
So the priority just becomes making contact with the casualty, then get them aboard with the least risk of being injured by the hull. That is what I see happening in the video.
National-Gur5958@reddit
Thank you. This looks like a relatively well coordinated rescue to me as a casual boater, but I'm happy to learn new things.
It's hard for me to understand all of the criticism here. The first approach was sloppy but I'm guessing that's because the crew probably rarely or maybe never handled this boat in rough seas under motor before.
They realized the attempt failed and went around again. The crew handling the line were very conscientious about getting it in the right place and also not fouling the prop. And then once the MOB had the line, they maneuvered such that the boat's momentum wouldn't interfere with getting the MOB hauled in while still using enough motor to have rudder authority.
And I agree with you that, if the MOB is conscious, why risk reversing the engine. Not just the risk of the line fouling, but engines that are put into reverse when the boat is moving sometimes stall. Then there would be a bigger problem.
I'm sure there are people who do rescues professionally and for them maybe this was pretty sloppy. But for a crew that primarily focuses on sailing races, it looks like commendable seamanship to me.
And thank you for the comments and discussion. I hope I am never involved in a rescue at sea, but if I ever am, I'm glad to have had this chance to think more about it in advance.
Historical-Read7581@reddit
The comments I and others made aren't meant to be nasty (at least not the ones I read--I may have missed some). The people in the second boat are heroes and they succeeded in saving lives that could have been lost otherwise.
Best definition of "hero" I can think of.
What I and others are commenting on are some of the difficulties this important video shows. It's an opportunity to see what can go wrong in a rescue attempt. In part, it is a way to mentally rehearse what we would need to do if we find ourselves in a similar situation.
johnbro27@reddit
They were very lucky after that long in the water the COB had the strength to hang on to the line and be pulled to the transom. Cold water is a strength killer.
FlickrPaul@reddit
They were lucky they were able to have a 2nd chance.
duggatron@reddit
Pretty heavy-handed with the throttle too. We get a lot of opportunities to practice in heavy winds on the west coast, but this seemed pretty clumsy all around. I did my MOB drills for my ASA in 30kt gusts on a J24. One of the other guys on the boat was throwing up. Good practice considering a sea state like this is a lot more likely to lead to a MOB.
johnbro27@reddit
Exactly. Emergencies rarely happen in dead calm conditions. I think people just aren't prepared for how difficult even a moderate sea makes doing stuff.
wanderinggoat@reddit
from instructors I have talked to MOB in real life is significantly more difficult than people expect. in retrospect I think perhaps it looks like they could have done things better but who knows why they did what they did, I think saving two people and getting them on to the boat is a major plus and we should try to learn what they did correctly also
Mrkvitko@reddit
I don't think pulling them downwind was the reason of failed 1st attempt, why would it be the case, and wouldn't pulling them upwind (against waves and wind) be even worse?
When you approach MOB from upwind, you usually get blown down faster than them, so you will end up downwind from them anyways.
FlickrPaul@reddit
The 1st attempt failed because the driver just let the boat drift and the load on the line overcame the swimmers, they literally could not hold on.
The fact they were pulling them at all is the problem.
Going upwind you can keep your boat still by feathering the throttle and let the boat come back to the MOD while they are being pulled in and once they are within 1-2M you go to neutral.
I think you meant to say from downwind and no you will not get blown down, as you will control your boat into the wind once you pass by. You have far more control of your boat while your bow is into the wind than the stern.
You also do not go 1/2 as fast as they are, as you can see on the 2nd attempt how much one of them gets pulled. @ 1:56 they are getting dragged again.
opticalminefield@reddit
In 20+ knots this is objectively wrong and IMO dangerous advice. Your bow will blow off long before you get slow enough to be near a casualty in the water.
FlickrPaul@reddit
Sea Safe Seminar April 29, 2010
Man Overboard and Quick Stop Procedures
lessons Learned Peter DeWolfe
http://www.mheadrace.org/page/6071/
You always should recover your MOD while heading to wind.
SVAuspicious@reddit
MRA should be ashamed of themselves. The best part of their page is the link to USNA video. Listen carefully starting here about the major issue approaching the MOB from leeward. The reference to '96 and '05 work in San Fransisco Bay is what led to two other really good reports.
Note that the demonstration was in very light air in quite sheltered waters on Severn River between USNA and DTNSRDC-Annapolis. Excellent quick stop for light air.
The MRA paper shows an entirely unrealistic Quick Stop. If you lose someone overboard you aren't heading toward them. See the USNA video.
Figure 8 and the Williamson turn are now discouraged by credible authorities.
Mr. DeWolfe has not kept up with best practice, nor has Marblehead Race Association. Quite sad.
opticalminefield@reddit
Quick stop and figure 8 are both manoeuvres for a boat with sails up. They’re also aimed at rescuing a MOB who isn’t able to assist with their own rescue (unconscious). In that case your goal is to end up hove-to to windward so that you are slowly drifting onto the MOB to allow you to hook them.
You’ll note that in this video the rescue boat does not have sails up and is motoring. The MOBs are both conscious and able to assist with their rescue. The approach was fine for the situation.
FlickrPaul@reddit
During the course they also explained this is applies to motoring as well.
Offshore time is the key, so fastest way is to turn with sails up.
We were told that it also applies when under motor as well.
Though please feel free to back up your claim with any documentation from an accredited source.
opticalminefield@reddit
Maybe start here:
https://www.ussailing.org/news/man-overboard-rescue-procedure/
Exactly what the crew look to have done in this situation.. and…
Looked like the rescue boat approached on a reach to my eye.
This all echos what I was taught when doing Advanced Sea Survival training and RYA Day Skipper.
roger_cw@reddit
Keep in mind the ferry arrived during the rescue. You're only seeing the last 2 attempts. You have no idea what they tried before this and what did and didnt work.
Mrkvitko@reddit
Agreed. Brief kick in reverse or two to stop the boat would be in order.
Yes, I wanted to say from downwind. And yes, even though you have more control with bow into wind, when bow gets more turned slightly downwind (and in the conditions like in the video it's not a question of "if" but "when"), the wind grabs the bow and turns you no matter what you do.
AnarZak@reddit
when you're tired and wet you're not going to be able to hold on while being dragged in any direction.
they shouldn't be pulling them in any direction with the boat. the boat should be endeavouring to be as close & slow as possible. whether you're doing it from above or below is preference based on the conditions & the boat's handling ability.
in this case, i think the fact that they hadn't lashed the sails down securely was causing them to lose the bow at slow speed. and given that the main wasn't fully down meant they accelerated when they turned downwind
roger_cw@reddit
It's easy to second guess their techique but when you're out there it's a lot more difficult. They were fighting 30 knots winds, cold, exhaustion and time. When you practice MOB a few times it seems like it's not too hard to get the hang of it but you're not usually practicing in conditions where people actually go overboard. Throwing in sustained 25 knot winds, over 35 gusts makes it hard to control the boat. Not saying they couldn't have done better but no one is going to do it perfectly in conditions like that.
Fortunately the ferry arrived and blocked the waves a bit but not so much the wind.
Alaszune@reddit
Isn’t this a lifesling rescue? Don’t think there is an approach there, just circle and pull them in. Does look like the first pass failed, and transom boarding can be risky in chop, but looked ok here.
jh937hfiu3hrhv9@reddit
https://www.yachtingworld.com/5-tips/how-to-recover-a-man-overboard-140746
wanderinggoat@reddit
I have stickied this as its a really good video that we can all learn from and discuss. Please remember be civil to each other (its in the rules) and be positive. Its very rare that this happens and is filmed so well.
Historical-Read7581@reddit
Yes, yes, yes. I wrote a long comment about this nailing home some of the stuff I learned in my ASA class.
Historical-Read7581@reddit
I'm super glad everyone was recovered OK. From the best description I read the incident happened when a large sail (Spinnaker?) was being handled/doused and a rogue gust of wind grabbed it and it instantly filled and delivered a very stiff blow to the boat and rigging when the slack on the sheets ran out.
That sort of thing is flat out dangerous, no matter how tough you or your boat is. The accident damaged and disabled the boat at the same time it threw two crew members overboard. The boat could not be controlled to recover them and radioed for help. What else ya gonna do?
Also seems like they got a MOB pole and float to the people in the water. Thank Gawd.
The second sailboat, with the hastily dropped sails, got the radio call and motored over as fast as they were able. That was faster than the official rescue service.
Once they got there, they started circling the People In the Water (PIW) dragging their lifesling behind them, hoping the PIW could latch onto it. Didn't work the first time because tired people aren't great and hanging onto a float moving at boat speed in 30 knots of wind.
This is where I start to criticize a little bit. When the video started, I thought the MOB pole was a buoy and wondered what the big deal was, because the lee shore looked to be far away. I didn't realize they were circling people in the water and hoping they could hold onto the lifesling. That is NOT how the ASA taught me the Man Overboard drill.
They had motor power. They should have maneuvered directly downwind of the PIW after assigning someone to constantly monitor the PIWs' position (something made a LOT easier because of the MOB pole).
After getting downwind of the PIW, the rescuing boat should have headed directly toward them at speed of 2-3 knots*, directly upwind. When the bow of the boat reached the PIW, the helm person should have put the boat into neutral while the rest of the crew extended lines or ideally, a halyard with a loop in it, to the PIW. They could also use mooring lines with a big bowline loop tied at one end for each PIW. Get them into the loop between the bow and amidship, and then attach the main halyard to the small loop on the mooring line and use the winch to help lift the PIW into the boat at the back.
I'm not criticizing the people in the video. They reacted as best they knew and succeeded in rescuing two PIW in tough conditions.
But watching them struggle made me realize the wisdom of the way we were taught by the ASA.
*In less windy conditions, I would have said 1-2 knots.
frankenpoopies@reddit
Amazing- well done recovering crew
johnbro27@reddit
Some additional gripes from me. First of all, it's quite distressing that it took 47 minutes to get those crew out of the cold water. You can see in the video that it looks like the Lifesling was yanked away from the swimmers and they had to try again, yet the MOBs didn't use it, they hung on to the tow rope and were pulled in. The video clearly shows the difficulty of retrieving MOBs in frankly not terribly difficult conditions. Supposedly there was a WA ferry to windward acting as a kind of wind break also.
The boat had apparently no retrieval system ready to go when they got the crew to the stern. Just hauled them up over the transom. Worked because a racer carries a lot of crew; would not work for a couple out sailing alone, or possibly even two couples where three were still in the boat. The transom of most boats is not as easy to work at as that open-transom designed racer.
Note what the stern is doing in those waves. Those are not BIG waves, but that stern is flying up and down through several feet of vertical travel. I remember how tricky getting aboard a Jeaneau 37 we chartered in the Caribbean from the dinghy was in typical Caribbean sea conditions. The swim platform was constantly threatening to knock someone directly off the dink. Note that the center of that boat is the part that moves the least in conditions like these making a side entry safer and easier. But lots of boats today only have a lifeline gate midships, no ladder accommodations.
IIRC from our Lifeslings, the idea is the MOB has the harness around them and the retrieval line can then be attached to some sort of lifting line--like a halyard I suppose--which in turn can be on a winch. That probably won't work with the line at the side since it could pop out of the masthead sheave and jam. How do you get someone out of the water like that?
One way is to throw them a line and they can double it and tie a large bowline which will make two loops--putting their legs through those loops will create a Q&D lifting harness. The technique I was taught to tie a bowline around my waist is how this is done. Perhaps I'll post a video. With practice this method can be tied blindfolded easily. Then the line has to have a fair lead to a winch--perhaps over the stern a topping lift could be used. It's a good idea to keep some snatch blocks on board and have a setup planned and tested to take a spare halyard to a MOB where it won't jam. Again, a captain can't depend on sheer manpower to retrieve crew.
I've had a couple of near misses--the most serious was an elderly person getting into a dinghy off a quay in Antigua--that would have almost certainly resulted in a drowning since there was no apparent way to get them out of the water if that happened. I urge all sailors to run these drills and even try to retrieve people who are willing to go overboard under safe conditions. It's quite fortunate this didn't result in more serious consequences.
Sh0ckValu3@reddit (OP)
Info: I was out there but did not see this incident in person. Heard a lot of radio chatter and collected some stories to relay:
Center Sound series race. We saw winds pushing up into the low 30knot range.
Lifeline failure caused 2 sailors to go overboard. Lodos (white boat) was behind them and proceeded to deploy rescue equipment . Other boats circling on standby.
Ferry boat (from where the film was taken) provided wind break. Film credit Troy Hutt .
Both sailors recovered after a long period in the water (some estimates at 45 minutes total). Both sailors very hypothermic, transferred to sheriff boat, then to ambulance and ER. Both warmed up and doing fine.
Both sailors released after warming and checkups and reported to be doing fine.
Be careful out there friends. It can happen to anyone at anytime.
dickwae@reddit
Lifeline failure and only two crew overboard means the rest of the rail meat wasn't hiking hard enough.
chrisxls@reddit
Glad to see we have at least one racing skipper here
;)
Aggravating_Role2510@reddit
They were planning down wind. Going 25kts on a water ballasted 40 footer. ( I think a riptide )
nwzack@reddit
That’s legit
str8dwn@reddit
Lifeline failure. OUCH. Good thing this was on the race course. Kudos to all those helping.
I've done things racing I wouldn't dare dream of doing offshore. Relying on lifelines being one of the first. Checking them before leaving being much higher on that list,, ya' know, just in "case"...
Mrkvitko@reddit
45 minutes when everyone reacts almost immediately, with multiple vessels nearby, and with full crew where everyone kinda knows what they're doing. Ouch.
I think I should reconsider ideas about possible MOB recovery in non-benign conditions when I'm on the boat with just my friend.
toothless_budgie@reddit
Yes, but hard disagree on "everyone kinda knows what they're doing". They did not follow standard D or figure 8 recovery approaches, just to start. Well done to Lodos though, for finally getting it.
Aggravating_Role2510@reddit
We all do a course called safety at sea, they were using a lifelong which is a circular approach
TheFluffiestRedditor@reddit
Yah. The skipper of the white yacht was poorly placed for most of that video. With more context (longer video showing the rest of the rescue operation), we might see reasons for that.
The two obvious surprises were dragging the BOBs to the point of losing them, then placing the boat downwind of them after the 180° turn.
Mrkvitko@reddit
TBH recovery was already ongoing, and "throw it as close as possible and circle the causalty" is suggested mode of operation for Lifesling or other tied throwable devices...
babiekittin@reddit
The ferry could have launched one of their boats, but you get to a point where there are too many boats in the water. And that's a real problem in the Puget Sound.
The others more than likely stood off at the ready.
I remember being on the Clinton-Mukilteo run as a passenger back in the 1990s, when we responded to an MOB. Guy almost got hit by a rescuer when everyone swarmed the spot.
wanderinggoat@reddit
There is a podcast 'the mariner' where he reviews the death of a skipper in an offshore race. he got propelled into the ocean and was insight of the yacht all the time but in the time it took them to pick him up he had died... while they were watching. I found this very useful going through the accident report and what can be learnt from this.
https://themariner.podbean.com/e/76-the-mariner-safety-at-sea-newport-bermuda-race-fatal-mob-2022/
hopefully the mods dont remove this post for self promotion, vlogs or blogs since its in the interest of safety.
joeballow@reddit
You can also read the incident report directly.
https://www.ussailing.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/NBR-Morgan-of-Marietta-Report-10242022-FINAL.pdf
wanderinggoat@reddit
Very good, I personally think every skipper should read these and learn from others' mistakes.
SVAuspicious@reddit
*ahem* *grin*
SVAuspicious@reddit
I have commented buried in sub threads. Some overall thoughts here.
N.B. I'm using MOB (man overboard) here. COB (crew overboard) and POB (person overboard) are perfectly acceptable. I do not intend any offense or disrespect. The person in the water is not concerned with gender or identity.
First some contributions deserve recognition.
u/wanderinggoat https://www.reddit.com/r/sailing/comments/1j88qgp/comment/mh3z7r5/ link to excellent podcast about a different but relevant MOB event.
u/joeballow https://www.reddit.com/r/sailing/comments/1j88qgp/comment/mh47aeu/ link to the written report on the same event.
u/jh937hfiu3hrhv9 https://www.reddit.com/r/sailing/comments/1j88qgp/comment/mh3fcqn/ Very good Yachting World article. Read carefully as they are using terminology as windward and leeward from a different perspective than we have used in this thread. The article uses the perspective of the MOB rather than the boat.
u/opticalminefield https://www.reddit.com/r/sailing/comments/1j88qgp/comment/mh4sen3/ US Sailing MOB rescue protocol.
There was a study that presented a meta analysis of several hundred MOB events published some years ago. I can't find it although I've looked for it several times. It was outstanding work. If anyone stumbles across it please post a link. Some of my comments below draw from that study report.
There has been some misunderstanding and misinformation presented as fact.
Best practice is to recover with the boat to windward of the MOB. From small boats to ships, the boat will protect the MOB from wind and wave and keep the boat in contact with the MOB. There is some risk of blowing over the MOB but that is not as big a problem as blowing away from MOB. This was clear from the real world experience in the large study I can't find a copy of. *sigh*
Quick stop is best practice under sail or under power. The Williamson turn and figure 8 are rarely advantageous.
Not relevant to this event, there is no tech better than an AIS-SART.
u/Alaszune is the only commenter to note there are hazards to a recovery over the transom. MOBs end up under the boat and have tons of pitching boat land on their heads. The technical term for that is "bad."
Some discussion here about sails up or down. In my mind much depends on the capability of the crew. The big study I can't find cited one incident after another in which sails were dropped, a line was in the water, there was a prop wrap, and the MOB drowned in sight of "rescue" because the boat was disabled. That said, being under power means more options. I won't second guess those sort of decisions if I'm not there.
Practice for MOB recovery is important. It's a lot harder than it looks. The best "target" for practice I'm aware of is a fender and a five gallon bucket. The bucket acts like a sea anchor and the combination drifts with wind and sea like a person. Getting a wet, clothed person out of the water is really hard.
There has been some discussion about various training programs that include MOB material. I have very strong opinions on this matter. Education is useful to the extent that the student is able to actually apply what is covered especially in extremis. Real world MOB events are definitely extreme. Without application the certification, including well regarded ones like SOS and STCW are just pieces of paper on your "I love me" wall. Sadly, I see some examples of "book larnin'" in this thread. To be fair, doing something once, having it work out, and becoming wedded to that approach is also bad. It behooves us to learn from the mistakes of others so we can go on to make new and creative mistakes from which others can learn.
Another Dave wall o' text.
asssnorkler@reddit
The skipper did a poor job positioning the boat to recover these sailors, why on earth would he round them to windward? Why are they going so fast? Why even bother with the sails you should have enough control to do this without turning on the engine. It’s ideal sailing conditions in this video, these people need to train this more often.
roger_cw@reddit
You are watching an event from 60 feet up on the ferry. You cannot accurately judge the conditions. The winds were 25 knots and gusting over 35, far from ideal. The boat they fell off of was about 40" and essentially pitch polled breaking some stantions and throwing them over board. Again, not ideal. Also before the ferry arrived they rescuers were also fighting the waves.
I was not there but my son was. He was on the boat at the end of the video, Absolutely.
asssnorkler@reddit
I grew up sailing in Chicago. This is not uncommon conditions for me. I’m getting downvoted but whatever but from experience I would have gone about it a different way. I’m happy no one got hurt none the less
pedal-force@reddit
And this is why you stay on the boat. Actual storm, middle of the ocean at night, you're completely dead. This was relatively easy conditions, with a giant ferry providing a wind break and multiple vessels assisting, and it still took them 45 minutes.
StellarJayZ@reddit
Good job, Lodos crew! Good on the six looking out Absolute.
oneofthenatives@reddit
Lifeline failure sucks. you're just a little less confident the rest of your life.
Euphoric_Can_5999@reddit
I know one of the people who fell overboard!
Sh0ckValu3@reddit (OP)
Let me know if I got any of the details wrong. Did the best I could with second hand info.
LameBMX@reddit
that was absolutely lodos!