From Kit Darby: Southwest has the highest career value among the big 4
Posted by Difficult-While-7673@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 284 comments
Repost from Kit Darby:
US Major Airline Pilot Pay – 3.8% increase for 2025
Here are the latest monthly and annual pilot pay values. The three airlines without recent contracts Allegiant, FedEx, and Frontier have lower monthly pay values than other airlines in their category. UPS, where all FO’s and Captains make the same rate regardless of equipment, has the highest pilot pay value for Major cargo airlines and Southwest has the highest starting pay through the first 4 years and as a new Captain through 15 years. American has the highest monthly rate overall for senior wide-body FO’s and Captains.
The average pay increase for 2025 is 3.8%. and the average increase for new contacts over the length of the contract is 31.6%. Initial year average increase for a new contract has been 21.3%.
Airline Pilot pay increases at the Major airlines (5.24%) has doubled the inflation (2.47%) rate since 2010 and is expected to continue that trend if the negotiated annual increases are realized.
Assumptions: Captain in 11 yeas Based on current fleet Average hours per month No extra flying No premium flying
Other pay items NOT include: up to 47% more in career value Retirement contributions of 15% to 18% of monthly/annual pay, 100% Company paid. Profit sharing which averaged 6.4% in 2025. Non- retirement benefits -15% - life, health, dental, and vision insurance. Company Social Security payments – 6.2% up to $176,100 in 2025.
T0gaLOCK@reddit
Upgrade at Frontier is a little over 2 years.... a little off from the assumed 11. Lol
sdgmusic96@reddit
Well if Southwest was hiring, I'd apply in a heartbeat!
bcr76@reddit
I’m starting to hear rumbling about 2026. Maybe 600 but it’s all just grapevine rumors for now.
Odd_Entrepreneur4386@reddit
They’ve got 380 people with CJOs in a deferred pool though so that’s 2/3 of the what they would need. I hope things start moving over there soon.
RaidenMonster@reddit
Please, lord. 15 months of being 98% seniority wears on a person.
Disastrous-Touch504@reddit
Bro, you’re making 180/hr on second year FO pay. Cry me a river.
RaidenMonster@reddit
Says the guy who wrote a fucking dissertation about how bad Frontier is while living in base.
🥱
bcr76@reddit
Hang in there.
RaidenMonster@reddit
Best part of getting displaced is they pay for accommodations for 3 months lol
f1racer328@reddit
Were you home based before or commuting the entire time?
RaidenMonster@reddit
Live in a base, have never been based there. Have commuted MCO,LAS, displaced to LAX.
Caught the wave for which I’m grateful, didn’t realize it was about to crash on my head while I was in class lol.
Cxopilot@reddit
Don’t know if it’s true or not. But if it’s true we definitely pay for it. Lots of 3 leg back wards transcons
SeatPrize7127@reddit
I don't know what you're doing but I average 2.3 legs per duty period..
Cxopilot@reddit
Bidding the scraps with my juniority
Difficult-While-7673@reddit (OP)
Hang in there brother. My buddy is OAK and mostly does ETOPS but even his domestic trips seem to be similar to mine, 1-2 legs a day.
ApatheticSkyentist@reddit
How senior is OAK?
I’m hoping to move into 121 soon and OAK would be ideal.
Difficult-While-7673@reddit (OP)
5 year FO. I believe SWA is the only major with an OAK base but SFO has UA as an alternative option depending on where you live.
XxVcVxX@reddit
Fedex has an OAK base too
ApatheticSkyentist@reddit
Yeah United out of SFO or SWA out of OAK would be ideal.
I have a very good 91 job but I'm about ready to jump ship. Shoulda done it a couple years ago. Oh well, haha.
Difficult-While-7673@reddit (OP)
SWA isn’t hiring right now. Maybe that’ll change. I’d put apps into both, and go with whoever gives you a CJO first.
ApatheticSkyentist@reddit
Yeah that's pretty much the plan. I'm prepared to wait. I have a bunch of internal recs at both but I don't know how much that will matter.
Time to apply and see what happens.
Difficult-While-7673@reddit (OP)
Internal recs are huge for sure. Best of luck!
bottomfeeder52@reddit
does OAK run junior or senior?
Cxopilot@reddit
Meh it’s not bad at all. Even with my juniority I’m getting most weekends off and crediting 120 trips. I’ll talk the long days for a couple weekends off here and there
ATACB@reddit
Pretty much what I do over at the blue globe on the airbus fleet
CptSirBergmanstein@reddit
You don't enjoy ending your trip with an MTJ-DEN-BNA-EWR??????
us1549@reddit
Would you rather this flying be farmed out to a regional or codeshare?
Guess pilots always have something to complain about rings true here
Cxopilot@reddit
My comment wasn’t a complaint. It’s a fact. Our airline has longer leg days than the others. But we get paid for it. Our scope is what other airlines wish they had. And for that I’m thankful. No complaints from me.
Tony_Three_Pies@reddit
Captain in 11 years? Is that the assumption for all the airlines because it’s not really accurate for many.
Difficult-While-7673@reddit (OP)
Yes. 1-3 year upgrade is the exception not the rule. Southwest is not far off of industry average upgrade times. 11 years is the historical average and also gives a more realistic average of the pay scales in this type of comparison.
Tony_Three_Pies@reddit
There’s a big different between 1 year upgrade and 11. So while the new hire Captains may be mostly behind us I’m not sure waiting over a decade is particularly accurate either.
The majority of the increased compensation on this table comes from the 401k. What’s going on with SWs program that it’s so much higher?
Difficult-While-7673@reddit (OP)
Most pilots don’t take the first upgrade. When you’re dealing with averages it’s more accurate to take an average timeline like 11 years to get a broader overview. Individual cases will always be different.
Tony_Three_Pies@reddit
I suppose, and I certainly haven’t done any number crunching to know either way. That being said an 11 year FO at a legacy is not likely to still be flying the 737. There’s a very good chance that they’ll be making more, working less on a widebody.
This is why a screenshot of a table full of assumptions doesn’t really tell much of a useful story.
Years ago I worked with a guy that had an excel spreadsheet that allowed you to manipulate all the variables including what fleet you were on, for how long, when you upgraded etc. It’s a much more nuanced way to look at things.
But hey, if American, Delta, United and everyone else not in green on that table can use it to smack around their management come next contract cycle then great.
Difficult-While-7673@reddit (OP)
Well, I think we both know “making more and working less” on a widebody is not for everybody. That said, widebody FO pay is not high enough to significantly out earn other fleets. Widebody captains generally have the highest difference in pay, but only a small group of pilots hired in a very narrow window of time will be able to spend more than 5 years in that seat. Either way, I know plenty of 11+ year FOs and CAs that are on narrow body fleets and have no interest in widebody so I have to disagree with your generalization.
To your last point, you’re absolutely right. This is part of the collective bargaining cycle. I’m hopeful we can all pick up some big gains from the excellent contract that the SWA pilots achieved.
Tony_Three_Pies@reddit
Like I mentioned, I haven’t done an audit of the seniority list at my airline so if you have I’ll have to take your word for what most people with 11 years on property are doing.
A casual glance at the narrowbody FO lists don’t show a lot of 11 year pilots. There are always a few at the top who enjoy the benefits of being within the first few rows of the bid award but I don’t think that for a legacy pilot in 2025, sitting in the right seat of a 737 for 11 years is a fair assumption. There are of course lots of 11 year CAs on the narrow body fleets beucase that’s where most Captains are, and as you say not everyone wants to do widebody flying. There are also lots of 5 year Captains.
One of the charts assumptions is that the career is 35 years long. If I understand the chart correctly that would mean a 30 year old getting hired now. That person, at least at my shop, would be able to be a widebody Captain for a lot longer than 5 years if they want it.
But we’re getting into the weeds a bit here which I think is my point. The table isn’t a fair comparison of a career, and those differences become particularly stark when you involve such different airlines. A Southwest pilot will spend their entire career flying the “state of the art” shitcan that is the Guppy. They don’t have a choice so the progression is easier to predict. Hell, these days there are plenty of 11 year Southwest pilots that are 1st year United pilots.
A legacy pilot could be all over the place depending on their tolerance for training events. I assume that once some one upgrades at SW that they stay in the left seat until the end. That’s not necessarily true at a legacy.
A place like Atlas has its own complications because people generally do (or did when I was there) take upgrades sooner rather than later beucase there isn’t much of a difference in QOL between the seats. Upgrade there is also significantly less than 11 years (or at least it was, again I left before the 767/Amazon program fell apart).
I guess my reaction comes down to this. What’s the point of a chart like this? As we talked about, the data is too inexact to be a real tool, so what are we left with?
I guess a few airlines can stick their tongues out at each other and say “neener neener I make more than you”, all the non-single fleet pilots can tell SW et al how lame doing domestic 73 flying for 35 years is, and we can all be glad we don’t work for Allegiant but beyond that?
All of that being said I haven’t put in the work to make my comparison table so my critique is only worth so much, which is to say about as much as the paper it’s printed on.
Difficult-While-7673@reddit (OP)
I get what you’re saying but whether or not they’re stuck in the 737 specifically for 11 years is irrelevant. The pay is basically the same across all NB except delta with the “smaller” NB like the 220 and 717.
This tool is more of a contract comparison rather than a realistic assessment of an individual’s potential earnings. Every single one of us has a different seniority number that will skew these numbers. They’re averages.
I think the table is a fair comparison. Kit supposedly used each company’s typical career movement to ensure each pay scale was weighted properly.
To your point, yes YOUR situation and probably many other pilots will earn differently, lower and higher. But that’s not the point.
I think what this table shows is that among the big 4, you will earn about the same over a 35 year career. I get your urge to critique, that was also my initial reaction, but it got me thinking, I wonder if it was DL/UA/AA that was the “top,” would so many other pilots knee jerk reactions be to say not possible?
Tony_Three_Pies@reddit
SW has been in amongst the top of the contract heap for a long time so I don’t think people are reacting to them specifically. I think it’s just the nature of this sort of thing that people are going to pull it apart regardless of who was highlighted in green. I suppose people are surprised that there doesn’t seem to be much benefit to the availability of the magical widebody flying but again the assumptions seem to have flattened that landscape.
The retirement numbers I think are what are really catching people’s eye, especially without any details provided. From what others have said that’s down to some sort of 2% cash balance program that SW has, which accounts for millions of dollars difference at the end of a career. It’s shocking to see that line in the table and to me is the big takeaway. I want some or what they’re having next time please.
Difficult-While-7673@reddit (OP)
The benefits to the availability of WB flying, in my opinion, is the fact that it segregates seniority a bit to allow more junior guys artificial seniority on the NB side. And of course, the opportunity to go fly WB if that’s what someone is into. As far as compensation, it all equals out over the long term.
SWA was last to get a contract this last cycle. ALPA put out something recently that they’re working with SWAPA and APA to prepare for the next cycle and I am pretty sure that’s gonna involve matching or exceeding SWA. Also they have some other nuances to their retirement involving excess money that I can’t remember the specifics of. I think a SWA guy posted about it in here somewhere. But that should also be addressed in the next contract.
swakid8@reddit
It’s not a ego thing, it’s kinda difficult to include SWA in snap up because of different in fleets…. SWA only has one fleet type to account for in pay scale….
Where as United/Delta and AA has different fleet types that all have different pay…
Group 4 (AA WB), DL (764,330,350), and UA (777,787) pilots aren’t going to want a snap with Southwest rates as WB rates are higher vs SW
But SW narrow body rates are even with AA,DL,UA rates… The two group of carriers are just structurally fundamentally different….
No ego about, it’s no secret Southwest pilots do extremely well pay wise in comparison to legacy narrowbody counter parts.
Difficult-While-7673@reddit (OP)
That doesn’t make sense. Basically all NB pays the same at the other big 4 with the exception of the small NB (717/A220). WB pay wouldn’t snap up with NB pay. It’s not that difficult to treat the 737 as the A320 when it comes to pay, which is what every shop is already doing.
swakid8@reddit
The snap up provisions were based on the top of scale pay rates on the top paying aircraft not Narrowbodies….
Maybe ALPA could have negotiated a narrow body snap up, but management wasn’t going to sign off on that, neither would widebody pilots without their theirs…
Difficult-While-7673@reddit (OP)
No you’re right we didn’t. I was WB at the time. But my point is more related to ALPA politics than this table. WB are a quarter or less of every airline fleet. The NB guys deserve some love too.
Difficult-While-7673@reddit (OP)
We got snap up on the NB side? I don’t care about the WB. If ALPA was smart they would’ve included SWA in those snap up rates but they couldn’t fathom the idea that a non ALPA carrier might beat them.
Difficult-While-7673@reddit (OP)
I forgot to mention you’re right about the table being full of assumptions. But how do you break down each individual scenario? For every guy you find at one airline that is in a unique spot and earning more here or there either via a larger fleet, left seat, premium, etc. There’s a guy at another airline that’s found a lucrative way to work the contract in his favor. There will always be the “well what if…” argument. The table is meant to represent an equal average among all the majors. It’s impossible to include all of the small nuances that vary from shop to shop. At the end of the day it all comes out about equal.
mushybanananas@reddit
It’s hard to track all the soft pay stuff, like at delta there is so much random stuff that gets tacked on you would never be making what’s posted online. Also capt time at southwest might be 6-8 years vs 2-3 at a major if you wanted to sit reserve.
Cxopilot@reddit
Southwest is a major by the way. And the soft pay here compared to the other airlines is just slightly better. Bigger thing is the trips are credit higher for the amount of days gone.
rckid13@reddit
What's the upgrade time at SWA? For a while UA and DL had one year upgrades which is significant if the only thing this chart is comparing is career earnings.
Cxopilot@reddit
I’ll say this. I’m second year at SWA and cleared 250k. While averaging 14 days off a month. Don’t know how that compares to other airlines at the same stage of their career
rckid13@reddit
About the same on average for 2nd year FOs at the other legacies, but it can vary pretty wildly depending on whether someone wants to work or just sits reserve and does nothing. The second year captains sitting reserve doing nothing are making over $350k just on reserve guarantee alone and that's not including the pretty much company maxed 401k without you having to contribute much at that income.
Difficult-While-7673@reddit (OP)
Uhh no. A second year delta captain on the Airbus fleet is making $345 an hour. At reserve guarantee that’s $298k for the year.
swakid8@reddit
Yeah, but most narrowbody guys at Delta averaging 80-85 hours a month on reserve….
At United, I average about 80-85 a month on reserve.
Difficult-While-7673@reddit (OP)
And SWA guys are averaging higher credit for equivalent block, what’s your point?
swakid8@reddit
My point, you based your math on min guarantee…. But reality is that Delta rsv folks are clearing on average of 80-85 hours a month with their reserve provisions…. Same goes for United…
Difficult-While-7673@reddit (OP)
That doesn’t change anything. The rate is still the same. Honestly if you take historical average credit I’m pretty sure SWA would be blowing it away even more so.
rckid13@reddit
No one is making just 75 hour reserve guarantee. At a bare minimum even if they bid reserve and do nothing they would get that $298k plus a little over $30k in profit sharing. Line holders or anyone going above guarantee on reserve is making more. UA has the VEC reserve lines which credit 90 per month.
Difficult-While-7673@reddit (OP)
I’ve said it like a million times in this thread but your situation is the exception, not the rule.
Delta reserve guarantee is 72 hours. Profit sharing is not guaranteed and varies wildly year to year. Not a dependable or predictable source of income.
duaIinput@reddit
Can you explain the math on this? At United for example, current 737 FO is $185.59/hour.
$185.597512 is $167,031… so how do you get from there to $250k?
rckid13@reddit
Because your math is assuming 75 per month. I'm flying with senior FOs who are crediting 150+ per month and I've seen over 200 from wide body FOs who are getting bought off trips for training. Also profit sharing was over $30k this year for many people.
Negative_Swan_9459@reddit
The average UA 2nd year fo is not crediting 150/mo. Not even close.
rckid13@reddit
Now you guys are just twisting what I said. I didn't say all FOs are crediting 150. I said that on average the legacies probably all pay very similar at similar levels of seniority. Then people responded saying that reserve guarantee is low. I said that almost no one is on reserve guarantee. Everyone I'm still in touch with from my new hire class is crediting well over 100. The wide body FOs will show me 180 credit months when they're bought off trips and double dip.
No where did I say this was average. I said it's possible sometimes, and that (12 * 72 * pay rate) is not what most people are earning.
Negative_Swan_9459@reddit
Just like 2nd year pilot crediting 150–someone hired today is not going to be making 350k on CA reserve year 2. You literally said the average 2nd year person is making 250 and that’s not true. I work here too, it’s ok to say SWA makes more.
2nd year CA guy asking to link his paystub. ELHOEL. This is why your generation is getting a bad rap, get off it bro.
duaIinput@reddit
150 hours/month as a 2nd year FO though? I’m just curious if it’s really possible for most folks or just outliers.
rckid13@reddit
It's completely dependent on the economy and growth. It is possible for people who are at 2 years right now. It was definitely not possible for people who hit 2 years pretty much any time between 2001 and 2010. Other years can be hit or miss. Even during moderately bad times most people aren't making straight 72 hour guarantee. There is usually some way to up the credit a little bit. (Pay rate * 72 * 12) is a bare minimum if you really don't want to do anything and it's a year with zero profit sharing.
Cxopilot@reddit
As of now it looks like 6.5-7 years. Dependent on Boeings ineptitude.
Difficult-While-7673@reddit (OP)
It’s hard to aggregate all of the soft pay, yes, but I believe Southwest pilots have the same if not more pay overrides. At Delta I know a lot of their “soft pay” is absorbed by the rigs, so it doesn’t really add up. Hopefully that’s something that can get addressed in their next cycle.
Southwest is a major airline. The upgrade time is currently less than 6 years and slated to drop once they figure out their MAX7 issues. Upgrade times vary significantly and change rapidly. 1-3 year upgrades is the exception not the rule.
PullDoNotRotate@reddit
Huh? What?
Additional pay-only items are pay-no credit and due in addition to the rotation guarantee, if that's what you're referencing. So no, it isn't absorbed by the rig(?!).
You can fit so many 15:45 3-days into New York widebody categories, but that's another story.
Difficult-While-7673@reddit (OP)
Sorry I meant to say the overrides don't stack at Delta, which they do at SWA. You are correct.
mitchb0016@reddit
Rigs nd override at SWA are all better specially while the company is still addicted to rerouting pilots though they have figured that out to an extent
PullDoNotRotate@reddit
Sure, but the add-pay items in the 2019 PWA don't just magically 'disappear' into our rotation guarantee.
mitchb0016@reddit
No one is saying they do. It the side by side of rigs and overrides SWA is ahead.
FtheFAA@reddit
Current upgrade times at Delta if hired today are also 6-8 years.
PullDoNotRotate@reddit
Yeah, the wunderkid era is mostly over, though the 717 is still going fairly junior.
Joe_Littles@reddit
Those are still great numbers to me. I just recently entered my 30s, I have no issues with the idea of spending 10 years as an FO on various fleets.
15+ is where I probably second guess leaving my current carrier, tough to say.
proudlyhumble@reddit
Same at SWA, I can’t go a trip without some sort of extra soft pay.
Negative_Swan_9459@reddit
Ask a SWA guy what they credit every month. Far in excess of what was used in this calculation.
Autoslats@reddit
SWA is a major.
554TangoAlpha@reddit
It’s so variable though and based on timing. Hard to say ones better than the other. I bet the new hire or 1 yr CAs at UA make out better than a guy waiting years to upgrade at WN.
Difficult-While-7673@reddit (OP)
1-3 year upgrade is the exception not the rule. That will not continue much longer. Southwest retirement wave is not coming until 2028.
Can you quantify those numbers? Junior UA CAs on narrowbody fleets are not making enough over a 5 year timeframe to make up almost $2 million in career earnings. To your point though, if someone is hired in this very narrow window of time with short upgrades, I could see the compensation among the big 4 being basically the same.
swakid8@reddit
No, but will be in the neighborhood of 1.5-1.7 million within the first 5 years….
Difficult-While-7673@reddit (OP)
And you’re going to pay for that by being a very junior CA with that quick of an upgrade. There’s a cost to everything. And even with all that extra cash, you’re still falling behind a SWA FO taking the longer upgrade and prioritizing QOL.
swakid8@reddit
I thought we are having a career earnings discussion here, not a QOL….
Besides, math isn’t checking out with a Southwest FO who upgrades later (6-7 year mark at Southwest vs a jr legacy guy who upgraded at year 2….. coming out ahead…
345K was the number I am using for a jr legacy captain, which is on the low end…. I know you based your math on min guarantee….. But with nuances in each contract, legacy jr Captains easily clear 345K without effort. As
Southwest pilots do well on credit, but they not pulling in 345K as a junior FO without some kind of major hustle…..
Difficult-While-7673@reddit (OP)
The problem with your logic is you’re looking at a short time window and a rather unique situation over the bigger picture of 35 years. Yes if you are only looking at a 5 year time window, the pilots at the companies with quicker upgrade will make more. But the longer upgrades will catch up… and considering SWA FOs and CAs have the highest pay scale in category you can read the numbers in the table to see the difference that makes on average over 35 years. I didn’t make up the numbers or do the math. Kit has more in depth calculations available on his site/channels.
554TangoAlpha@reddit
Yes yes I know, was just trying to make a point about how variable everything is.
rckid13@reddit
Yes they are.... Source: I am a junior NB captain.
Difficult-While-7673@reddit (OP)
That math isn’t mathing. You’d need to earn over half a million MORE than what senior FOs are earning per year at SWA for that time period.
rckid13@reddit
I don't think the numbers in this Kit Darby article are accurate. So far no one can explain why the article lists SWA 401k at 8 million when UA, DL and AA are at 5 million. I highly doubt a 5 year SWA FO is earning 2 million more than someone with 5 years seniority at the other legacies.
Difficult-While-7673@reddit (OP)
I agree the averages are about all the same. I don’t know the intricacies of each contract. But I do know that SWA has the best retirement package so this does make sense.
grumpycfi@reddit
You really gotta love a job where the "worst" you'll do is $11M with a proper retirement age (and benefits).
WorkingOnPPL@reddit
“Past performance is not indicative of future results.”
It’s 1988 and a pilot has job offers from both TWA and Southwest. How many are choosing Southwest? Very, very few. But with the benefit of hindsight…
zero_xmas_valentine@reddit
But have you considered getting all the way to the last step of that process, and then get fired for meowing on guard during IOE?
Worried-Ebb-1699@reddit
I couldn’t help myself. Try it. It’s addicting
0621Hertz@reddit
The worst is that airline no longer exists and you have to start all over again in the seniority list elsewhere.
Weaponized_Puddle@reddit
This chart is super idealistic, if I can make half the career average then it would be a massive W in my books.
LostPilot517@reddit
Thankfully we have qualified plans these days and not non-qualified pension plans. Otherwise, yes.
Crusoebear@reddit
Nods in 9/11
OtterVA@reddit
Really curious how SWA was calculated +2.5 mil in 401k contributions on \~12mil earnings compared to the big 3 when their 401k is the same % in line with the others and they only get a 1-2% MBCBP that some of the others don’t.
Difficult-While-7673@reddit (OP)
Because they make more, have an additional 2% company contribution, and have additional favorable handling of spillover cash that the others don't. Hopefully to be addressed in the next cycle thanks to what SWA pilots achieved.
PWJT8D@reddit
Kit on some crack with this one. Typical shit he pushes with no credibility.
Difficult-While-7673@reddit (OP)
Feel free to calculate your own numbers or present an argument as to why these are inaccurate.
SubarcticFarmer@reddit
The assumptions are why they are inaccurate. 11 years to first time captain? That is closer to the reality at SWA but further from the reality at Delta or the other big 4 airlines.
No premium I can understand at least.
Difficult-While-7673@reddit (OP)
1-3 year upgrade is the exception not the rule. Upgrade times are trending upward. It makes no difference anyway, SWA upgrade times are around 5 years, any pilot who takes an early upgrade is not going to make up for $2 million in a 4 year span.
IgetCoffeeforCPTs@reddit
You keep saying 1-3 year upgrade is the exception, not the rule. It may be the exception, but it is also the current reality and you are choosing to hand waive that fact. Your assertion that it will end "soon" is a guess. Your OP table is worth nothing because it is built on bad assumptions.
Difficult-While-7673@reddit (OP)
The fact that you can’t actually quantify that except by assuming that minor differences in upgrade times change the calculus by over $2 million over 35 years means either you know what you’re saying isn’t true or you refuse to run the numbers yourself.
That said, again, you’re looking at a tiny little narrow window of time over 35 years and trying to average that as the norm which it is far from. 11 years is the historical average among the majors. Yes, it is less than that at some companies, but it’s not making a $2 million difference. Not to mention the upgrade time is continuing to climb as we speak at these companies. Nonetheless, you can choose to believe what you want. Individual circumstances will always vary from the average. That’s not relevant to this chart.
SubarcticFarmer@reddit
The entire chart is assumptions. What's the FO aircraft type assumption? What's the widebody upgrade timeline assumption? Is this narrowbody for everyone?
That is a much larger impact for carriers with multiple fleet types and pay scales.
Difficult-While-7673@reddit (OP)
Do you expect the chart to run every single possible individual situation? The pay difference between a delta widebody CA and a large narrowbody CA is around $75 an hour. Unless you’re looking at a small percentage of hustlers, it’s not making that much of a difference, especially considering that the majority of pilots will not be able to spend more than 5-6 years in the left seat of a widebody.
There will always be a million variables, I think what this chart shows more than anything is that among the big 4 the overall career value is basically identical.
SubarcticFarmer@reddit
That's the problem, those items don't affect SWA at all but DO the other airlines.
You keep asking why this chart isn't accurate then whining that you can't account for every situation.
I love how you also say "large narrowbody" at Delta vs widebody with no definition when the assumed aircraft wasn't even given.
The difference between a 737 captain at Delta and a widebody captain is $92 an hour at top out. That is easily half a million in your "only 5-6 year" stance.
The difference between a 737 FO and widebody FO is $70 an hour. But that doesn't matter either.
These are massive numbers in both fronts that apparently aren't worth considering.
Difficult-While-7673@reddit (OP)
Different fleet types do not make the numbers inaccurate. You are making assumptions of your own regarding what one’s career might look like, and I now suspect they may be biased assumptions.
As an example, less than a quarter of Delta’s fleet are widebodies (~17%). That’s a small minority of the pilot group earning those rates. You seem to be implying that ever delta pilot will eventually become an A350 captain and that’s just not the case. The majority will not ever be a widebody captain. You’re trying to compare the outliers to the averages, and that’s not how averages work.
SubarcticFarmer@reddit
So the topped out SWA captain makes about the same as the Delta narrowbody captain... And the widebody FO makes more than the SWA FO.
17% of Delta's fleet may be widebodies, but there is an outsized impact because widebody FO seniority actually tracks fairly neatly to Narrowbody captain (pay is about $40-50 an hour less). What this does mean is that a larger percentage of the seniority list is at a captain equivalent position compared to a narrowbody only operation.
And now you're putting widebody at 20 years.
I'm not even trying to poo poo on SWA here... It's just like you have a goal of which you want to look best and are dedicated to making the numbers show it. You talk about "why the averages look like that" but nowhere in your OP do I see you giving any assumptions that cause that line to make sense.
Difficult-While-7673@reddit (OP)
I get what you’re saying, and I’m not trying to argue that SWA is the perfect airline for everyone. But when we’re looking at total career earnings, the numbers don’t lie—SWA still provides the highest career value over 35 years.
Yes, Delta has a significant percentage of its pilots in widebody FO positions that pay close to a narrowbody captain, and for some, that’s a great path. But that’s assuming you actually get on a widebody, and that it happens at a time that aligns well with your career progression. Not everyone will, and not everyone wants to. At SWA, every pilot is on the same pay scale, which means you don’t have to rely on widebody availability to hit your peak earnings potential. The upgrade time to captain is generally faster, meaning you hit top pay much earlier.
Widebody CAs are a much smaller category, and only a very small percentage of pilots will ever hold it, and they will only hold it for a small part of their total career (yes I know there will be outliers, that’s not the point).
The numbers in the chart also include 401(k) contributions, retirement benefits, and active benefits, all of which add up. SWA 401K NEC and CBP is one of the best in the industry, which is why you see that massive $8M+ figure there. That’s guaranteed money that builds regardless of fleet or seniority decisions.
The reality is that all pilots at the big 4 make about the same over a 35 year career. I don’t care about SWA or delta. I’m at U. And seeing numbers like this make me excited because it means we now have a higher floor in the next cycle. This is how collective bargaining works.
PWJT8D@reddit
We didn’t need a chart to understand pattern bargaining and neither should you, this information was already available using critical thinking. It has always been this way for the legacies.
This chart is one giant logical fallacy by not including Widebody pay for the 3 legacies that don’t apply to SWA.
Difficult-While-7673@reddit (OP)
It does include widebody pay, that’s the fun part.
PWJT8D@reddit
No it doesn’t, that’s the funny part.
SubarcticFarmer@reddit
How do the numbers compare to U? U has a much larger widebody footprint so it should be more dramatic to include widebodies in assumptions.
Difficult-While-7673@reddit (OP)
Probably not as different as you’d think. We have a slightly larger widebody fleet at 25ish percent. But the general concept holds true. Lots more WB FOs than CAs, and on average a WB CA position is only going to be available for maybe 5 years out of a 35 year career, assuming the most optimal conditions. SWA has an excellent contract that really filled the gap between other airlines.
SubarcticFarmer@reddit
I'll start out with saying that I don't think poorly of SWAs contract, I think they have a good one. Just didn't think it was quite so close. I'd really like to see a days worked analysis as well but don't think that would be easy to do.
Does UAL still run 3 FO/1CA crews?
Difficult-While-7673@reddit (OP)
Definitely not easy because everybody has a different strategy, same with legacy NB. But SWA is not very much different than any other NB schedule.
To your question, yes, as far as I know
SubarcticFarmer@reddit
I've flown with some pilots that came from SWA and it sounds like their narrowbody schedules are a lot different than ours and I would presume UALs too. They work a lot.
Difficult-While-7673@reddit (OP)
I’m guessing they all came from SWA on the old contract? I’ve got several SWA friends that do the standard 2-3 legs a day.
SubarcticFarmer@reddit
I'll have to ask, but possibly. I think at least one was new contract but also a commuter and I don't believe their trips are as commutable if I understood correctly.
Difficult-While-7673@reddit (OP)
That makes sense. Their new contract has the same duty/block limits (more restrictive than 117) as the other big 4. So I don’t see how they’d be working significantly more than anybody else. Especially now that they seem to have abandoned their focus on intrastate short haul in favor of the demand for medium-haul domestic routes.
SubarcticFarmer@reddit
You can work more days with the same limits for daily. I was under the impression that part hasn't changed much.
Difficult-While-7673@reddit (OP)
But SWA has more guaranteed days off on reserve (16 vs 12), and lineholders average 18 days off, so I don’t see how they work more than us
PWJT8D@reddit
When they do work they really work. Ask any SWA crew out there about their day, usually it sounds like a “worst day ever” here.
Difficult-While-7673@reddit (OP)
Source: trust me bro
PWJT8D@reddit
Calm down, Kit, Jr. Quit trying to defend this chart as anything other than “trust me bro”
SubarcticFarmer@reddit
You guys only have 12 days off on reserve? Ick. You still have global reserve too right?
One thing I'm confident that we have top notch is reserve rules. I've seen the #1 pilot in category bid reserve and I've been 20 too junior to hold it before, on a narrowbody.
LostPilot517@reddit
SWA upgrade is around 8 years right now but will fall when aircraft deliveries begin again.
My understanding is DAL expects 12+ year upgrades for anyone hired 2025 onward. I expect UAL/AA will soon be expecting similar numbers in reality. The massive hiring of young pilots the past 4 years has put thousands of future Captain already in the FO seat, and little future vacancies for new hires to find there way into that left seat.
SubarcticFarmer@reddit
I'd have to do math but I don't think 12+ years tracks with what the percentage seniority has tracked with upgrades unless you assume that none of the pending deliveries happen or that they are tracked with retiring aircraft (not currently planned).
Joe_Littles@reddit
Widget seniority suggests closer to 7-9 years, lower with growth. But I’m just an outsider.
PWJT8D@reddit
Calm down Kit, we aren’t buying your product or paying your speaking fee here.
Difficult-While-7673@reddit (OP)
Put your hat back on brother. That Chattanooga turn isn’t going to fly itself.
PWJT8D@reddit
Jesse, what the fuck are you talking about?
Greedy_Camera_433@reddit
Where would Kalitta be on this chart? About the same as atlas?
RemarkableScarcity8@reddit
Above netjets
Greedy_Camera_433@reddit
Genuinely what don’t you like about netjets? I always see you comment negative things about them. I know their benefits are some of the best in the industry and their compensation is really good so what’s the grip?
RemarkableScarcity8@reddit
Phenom, 21 yo girls NOT getting a phenom, 20+ year upgrade into phenom, but more importantly phenom.
bnh35440@reddit
Bro, all the aircraft pay the same, unless you’re damned to the sovereign. Enjoy the short easy legs and interesting places, or quit already.
NuttPunch@reddit
He’s convinced his upgrade will take 20 years so he’s doomed to be a lifer at NetJets
Joe_Littles@reddit
😭
Dependent-Place-4795@reddit
Just throw in the towel already dude
swakid8@reddit
I would say lower…
RastaFarva@reddit
Yeah this isn’t true. Upgrade at United is 12 month. Upgrade at southwest is like 7 years.
Difficult-While-7673@reddit (OP)
That is the exception not the rule. SWA upgrade time is not 7 years.
IgetCoffeeforCPTs@reddit
SWA upgrade time is seven years and climbing, why dont you ask one of them, Kitt?
Difficult-While-7673@reddit (OP)
I don’t think that’s accurate but it doesn’t matter because that’s still less than 11 years and only a few years off from the other big 4. Not to mention SWA retirement wave doesn’t come until 2028.
Raccoon_Ratatouille@reddit
What’s the methodology for this? Faster upgrades to CA or different fleets is going to significantly change the math
Difficult-While-7673@reddit (OP)
The methodology was average career movement at each company (so if they have widebodies, the typical timeline of NB to WB for the average pilot) with an 11 year upgrade. The math will always change for individual scenarios. This is an average outlook over a 35 year career.
IgetCoffeeforCPTs@reddit
Slight problem with the logic here; the above work assumes an 11 year upgrade no matter where you go. That is why SWA comes out on top. However, in reality SWA is the only major carrier that actually has an 11 year upgrade outlook right now. Upgrade times at all others are between two and six years, depending on the carrier. Correcting for that would change these results significantly.
Difficult-While-7673@reddit (OP)
Short upgrades are the exception not the rule. SWA doesn’t have an 11 year upgrade. It’s maybe 2-3 years more than any other the other big 4 airlines. You’re not making up $2 million in a 4 year span.
mass_marauder@reddit
How much are Southwest pilots blocking in a year though? Seems like they fly their tails off. I’d be interested to know the average yearly block time for pilots at each carrier.
FtheFAA@reddit
Some data for someone who drives to work in a junior base for the year 2024 and hustles for good trips and OT.
618 block. 1470 credit.
15.7 days off a month 6.4 overnights a month.
Floatsm@reddit
is that at SWA? 1470 TFP is pretty solid
FtheFAA@reddit
Yes
skylorde787@reddit
1544 TFP 640 block
But no WIDeBodIEs 😂
FtheFAA@reddit
Got a wide ass wallet though 😂
4Runner_Duck@reddit
Fat wallet and hates the FAA. My guy.
skylorde787@reddit
🤣
shaun3000@reddit
540 block in the last 12 months and 1340ish credit. 66% system seniority.
f1racer328@reddit
470 block in the last 12 and about 1230 credit here. More junior, too bothered to look but around 80% if I had to guess.
I do the bare minimum a bit.
proudlyhumble@reddit
Just finished year and blocked 700. Felt like I flew my butt off but the TFPs were always higher than I expected bc of the soft pay.
aviatortrevor@reddit
I did 746 block time looking back in the past 365 days. I mostly just fly my schedule and rarely take extra flying. Maybe averaging 1 extra day of work per month I voluntarily pickup for premium, sometimes straight pay if I just feel like making more money and it fits my schedule. I'm a commuter, so I can't really take advantage of reserve pay with no block time. There are a few senior captains breaking $1 million per year in annual income. Lots more in the $700-800k range "hustling." Average is probably like $400-550k for a captain. Average number of work days per month is about 14 if you just fly your line.
Your seniority is going to move faster at the other major 3. That is an important factor to consider in career earnings, being able to upgrade to captain a lot quicker. I do love our bidding system and vacation and monthly-overlap trip-drops. I fully intend to convert my future 5-weeks of vacation into 15 weeks off every year.
bottomfeeder52@reddit
how many days a month are the $1mil and $700-800K hustlers working?
aviatortrevor@reddit
And sorry I didn't answer about projected upgrade times. I don't have the exact data at hand, but I think about 9-11 years. It was gonna be a couple years less if it weren't for Boeing shit
aviatortrevor@reddit
They are probably working like 20-24 days. Everything on their board is premium because they have good enough stuff to give away all their straight time stuff and are senior enough to gobble up the premium open time. They are also burning some of their sick time and vacation, and maybe they do 1 reserve block a month that they are strategic about picking up so that they know they won't get called in to work. They are strategic about getting premium trips with deadheads too so that they don't rack up so much block time and run into Part 117 limits.
bottomfeeder52@reddit
is that something you do like one time when picking your schedule the month prior or are you constantly trying to check and change it throughout the month you’re working that schedule?
aviatortrevor@reddit
I don't work enough to run into 117 limits. So I don't worry about it. I mostly fly my line, and do some trades for quality-of-life reasons, like being home on a weekend, or changing to a trip that is commutable on both ends, or changing to a trip that releases earlier on the last day.
Difficult-While-7673@reddit (OP)
Don’t know the average. Anecdotally most of my friends there seem to block maybe 100-150 more than me per year on an equivalent narrow body fleet. So I don’t think they’re far off from industry average.
MangoKommando@reddit
Stby. UPS contract in the works
Bandolero101@reddit
What’s the word internally there? (if you’re there)
MangoKommando@reddit
Well I couldn't comment but keep a lookout
Bandolero101@reddit
praying they work on scheduling and QOL more than pay
BuffsBourbon@reddit
Following
BuffsBourbon@reddit
It’s the new baggage fees
Twarrior913@reddit
Alright it’s been posted long enough, where’s the doomer “this doesn’t matter when they file bankruptcy”, “whole industry is going down the tubes,” “Don’t expect to make what I make when you make it to where I am” posts.
Bandolero101@reddit
We should re-name “The Lost Decade” to “The Status-Quo” in honor of them
FOXHOUNDJanitor@reddit
JetBlue is currently in contract negotiations. You can add them to the list of major airlines without a recent contract.
MrAflac9916@reddit
Yeah but atlas gets to fly 747 to cool places around the world. Not everything is about money
swakid8@reddit
They sure do, but do not get paid enough to do all of that….
Difficult-While-7673@reddit (OP)
There’s pros and cons everywhere for sure
FutureA350@reddit
Theres only one thing im scared about.>!Taxes.!<
redditburner_5000@reddit
I hope people aren't actually using these summaries as a guide to select an airline.
rckid13@reddit
It's kind of rare that people get to "select an airline" at the major level unless they want to hang out at the regionals or at their corporate job losing seniority for years waiting for a call. I only know a couple of people who have had job offers from two legacies at once and truly got to select one.
BigJellyfish1906@reddit
My sim partner worked for all 3 legacies in a span of 6 months, but she got hired from least favorite to most favorite so she kept jumping ship every time she got a call. Post-covid was a special time.
prex10@reddit
2022 it seemed everyone was getting a call from UA and AA.
554TangoAlpha@reddit
Ya and then you had guys bouncing between legacies lol, wild times.
prex10@reddit
I know of one person who worked for FedEx then Delta and is now at United
Baystate411@reddit
I know someone who went SWA, UA, DL.
xPhoenixRising@reddit
Interesting, any insight into the switch from Delta to United?
Yesthisisme50@reddit
Weren’t a hat guy
Sad-Improvement-2031@reddit
I have heard that 40% of the pilots at UA have been hired since covid.
redditburner_5000@reddit
Seemed pretty common the last few years. To a point where countless posts were made asking which of three offers to majors they should accept.
Autoslats@reddit
100%. You’re really shooting yourself in the foot if you’re dead set on a particular airline and you hold out for it.
rckid13@reddit
I've also seen people go to one major or even legacy, but then keep applying to the one they want. Usually it's a commuting thing. They want the legacy that has a base where they want to live. But passing up on another legacy job because it requires commuting would be silly.
Difficult-While-7673@reddit (OP)
I think it shows more among the big 4 you can’t go wrong. You will earn about the same everywhere so focus on quality of life which means LIVE IN BASE.
redditburner_5000@reddit
I think that's generally true. But beware the TWAs, PanAms, USAirs, and Easterns.
My (somewhat snarky, sorry) point was that there's so much unknown, that looking at these tables to set a goal is useless. It's a great data point/point-in-time summary, but I wouldn't say, "aaawwwww yeeaaaah. I'm with Delta! I'm made! Time to buy a palaceial estate and a boat and a jetprop!"
I know the older guys know this, but I keep seeing posts of relative newcomers telling me that they are expecting sumptuous (literally an adjective used on this very sub to describe a that person's career expectation) careers of flush with money and ease.
I really really hope that happens because I have several friends who fly at the majors now, and I want all of my friends to be richer than me! If I'm the poorest guy I know, I'm in good shape! I still caution against the lifestyle inflation mindset though. Spooks me a little that so many seem to think that getting with a major is automatic easy-street.
I have a thing for personal finance planning so I key in on that naturally. It's really, really important to understand that lifetime earnings outlined in these tables will not translate into sustained wealth if it's spent during a person's younger years instead of invested. Anyone starting to invest in their late-30s or 40-years-old needs to sit down and pencil out the savings rate they need to hit a sustaining figure at a realistic annual return no later than age 65. I guarantee it's a lot higher than most people think if they want to sustain an airline pilot's lifestyle through retirement.
Again, just my $0.02. But that's where I go to when I see stuff like this.
Difficult-While-7673@reddit (OP)
Great advice. My only counter point is that generally speaking you can have a very gravy life at the majors if you have some level of discipline. Live within your means, always budget off of minimum pay, on top of all the other normal financial advice (most importantly stay out of debt). If you do that, a furlough won’t bankrupt you. Hopefully this industry doesn’t come to that. I have some hope now that with all of the consolidation that has taken place in the industry since 2008, the government won’t let any of the big 4 go belly up. But, I also wouldn’t bet my savings on it.
redditburner_5000@reddit
Oh, absolutely. It can (and should) be a gold mine.
FtheFAA@reddit
100%. Don’t commute.
FtheFAA@reddit
100%. Don’t commute.
Adventurous-Ad8219@reddit
Just want to speak up for the guys and girls at Hawaiian:
Kit Darby's calculations assume uniform widebody upgrade times. Hawaiian is like 60% widebody while American is like 15% widebody. You'd make 330 captain way faster than you'd get there at the other legacies
RequirementLocal7418@reddit
Know anything about hiring outlook at Hawaiian?
Difficult-While-7673@reddit (OP)
Very true. Do you guys still have an LAX base or is it just HNL now?
Adventurous-Ad8219@reddit
Through Alaska they do :)
Hawaiian's two pilot domiciles are HNL and CVG
EsquireRed@reddit
I keep hoping AS or HI adds LAS as a base! One can dream, right? :)
velosnow@reddit
Sure, but you gotta fly a 737 your whole career.
f1racer328@reddit
For an extra 1-2 million it seems worth it.
velosnow@reddit
Nope. Flying a gloried RJ schedule in an airplane design that should’ve been scrapped two decades ago? F that. I’ll die on this hill.
Dependent-Place-4795@reddit
Who cares
Rdshadow@reddit
Sky West Captains
Negative_Swan_9459@reddit
Doesn’t surprise me one bit. SW’s new contract is very good.
TheMeltingPointOfWax@reddit
Our new contract is dynamite. For straight pay we've got parity and then some with legacies, but the soft money is where we really cleaned up. It's so good that there were doomsayers (very small minority) in the pilot corps who were convinced the new contract should be voted down because it would bankrupt the company.
takeoffconfig@reddit
Hopefully the Elliot times are weathered well and this can be a jumping off point for the next contract cycle. Tides and boats or something.
longlive737@reddit
I’d be interested where NetJets is on this stack. I think it would end up 3rd or so from the bottom, but what’s interesting is how much bigger it is than some of these airlines.
Successful_Side_2415@reddit
So what you’re saying is you really can’t go wrong with NetJets either
Dependent-Place-4795@reddit
And you fly the richest people on the planet
longlive737@reddit
I’d say the true richest folks don’t share their airplanes with a dozen strangers, they can buy their own. And most folks at that level have exploited labor in some fashion to get to there, so nothing new for the help.
Dependent-Place-4795@reddit
Some do, they just don’t want the trouble of aircraft ownership and management of pilots etc
longlive737@reddit
Very true.
HawkspilotLoad@reddit
How are flight benefits at SWA? Do you and your beneficiaries get ZED on other airlines and is it very limited? Even if career earnings are high I’m sure the flight benefits with AA/UAL are better with one world and star alliance
immaterial737-@reddit
Flight benefits? Literally no one cares about/would choose an airline based on flight benefits.
NuttPunch@reddit
You can retire with those benefits. I would much rather have legacy benefits in retirement than SWA as almost all my travel needs are international. I couldn’t give a crap flying to most places in the US. Certainly don’t base off it, but to act like it’s not important ignores a large reason people are in this career to begin with.
immaterial737-@reddit
Y'know, I know some southwest retirees. None of them with their planes, boats, multiple houses and international ski trips are hurting too much even if they don't have legacy travel benefits.
NuttPunch@reddit
I also know retirees who exclusively use their non-rev benefits because well, they are pilots. Pilots are known for being extremely cheap. They have ample time too and honestly I think some people just enjoy the non-rev game as odd as that may sound.
immaterial737-@reddit
If I'm still doing the non rev game at age 70, someone please shoot me. Like all pilots I've done enough airport appreciation to last a lifetime and I still have 30 fucking years left.
SubaruSolberg@reddit
It’s a stretch to say no one cares.. Flying international First Class for free is a significant benefit (could be upwards of 10 to 20K in $ amount/flight) and makes overseas trips much more reasonable/enjoyable. It’s not a realized value however, and should not be converted into any monetary value as a benefit. Many pilots simply don’t use the benefit available to them for various reasons. Blows my mind because when it’s done right it’s incredible. But I do agree, it should be a very small factor in someone’s decision of where to make a career.
immaterial737-@reddit
As someone that non revs intl, has probably saved upwards of 40k on flights over the years and hasn't bought a ticket in 15 years, I get it.
However it was a 0% factor in where I went to work.
554TangoAlpha@reddit
Ya they get all the ZED. No one’s basing a career on flight benefits lol.
RemarkableScarcity8@reddit
Cries in netjets (no flight benefit)
FtheFAA@reddit
Pay is enough buy first class on the rare occasion I need it. Otherwise we only get business on United with ZED.
aviatortrevor@reddit
And Lufthansa and Alaska business class too
HawkspilotLoad@reddit
Good to know. Upgrade is also almost a decade though right? Only gonna get longer the next few years with boring messing up
FtheFAA@reddit
Yes. Upgrade times? Who knows. Doesn’t matter.
SW is the 4th largest airline in the world. Yes they have the entire ZED network.
Difficult-While-7673@reddit (OP)
I’m not sure. Maybe a SWA guy can chime in on that. They have ZED though, I’ve checked loads for SWA friends at my company.
jackintheboxtacoguy@reddit
How many years is this based off?
Longhornmaniac8@reddit
You're not going to sell me that WN's retirement earnings are 60% more than the legacies to the order of 3 million dollars difference. They retirements are all exceedingly similar. Even if you take the extra 2% contributed every month (which works out to about an extra $600/month on a $350K salary), compounding that at 5% over 25 years is less than $400K. Even assuming $450K and 7% only yields about a $650K difference.
Difficult-While-7673@reddit (OP)
They have other intricacies in their contract regarding how excess money is handled that generously benefits their pilots. I don’t remember the specifics. But the earnings are accurate.
jsl4f@reddit
I appreciate the effort that went into this.
I see this as a contract comparison more than a career decision making tool.
The main driver of compensation imo is your life decisions on where you want to live and how hard you want to work. Your main driver of wealth building is how long you can stay married.
soniccsam@reddit
They be working for that dolla
Big-Carpenter7921@reddit
Isn't American's higher?
PullDoNotRotate@reddit
TYOOL 2025 and still listening to Kit Darby
aviatortrevor@reddit
I met Kit Darby in 2004. When he told me there was a pilot shortage.
PullDoNotRotate@reddit
It was a good 20 minutes or so nearly 20 years later, eh?
aviatortrevor@reddit
I would consider pilot wages to be ramping up quite fast between '16-20. Then COVID screwed up the very good prediction that we would need more pilots. Then the early retirements in 2020 coupled with the pent up demand for travel after lock downs poured gasoline on the hiring fire. Then Boeing and Airbus are to blame for the latest slow down. Just lots of unforeseen things happening. I think if tariffs keep happening, we are in for a recession. One that we are essentially choosing.
PullDoNotRotate@reddit
I concur. I remember big raises being thrown at the right seat during my time at OO with modest increases for the left seat. I have various problems with that, but I'm glad nobody starves who flies an airliner now.
I also agree with your macroeconomic views. Consumer confidence is completely in the shitter right now.
FastNefariousness973@reddit
This doesn’t really account for the culture southwest seems to be shifting towards, they used to be a culture over profit organization and in the last few years especially so far this year. It seems they are straying away from this principle.
Can_Not_Double_Dutch@reddit
A major investor bought a 15% or so share and is trying to change the culfure
FastNefariousness973@reddit
Yes and that hedge fund investor really only cares about profits and not really about people
theboomvang@reddit
Why is Southwest's retirement so much more lucrative then every one else?
ThatLooksRight@reddit
They negotiated a higher direct contribution in their latest contract.
the_devils_advocates@reddit
I certainly dont think its above 18%
mitchb0016@reddit
It’s currently 17% 401k and 1% to MBCBP 2026 it increases to 18 and 2% respectfully
shaun3000@reddit
20%.
FtheFAA@reddit
It’s 20% in 2026. So…
ThatLooksRight@reddit
I thought it was 20%.
jacobr16103@reddit
It goes from 18% to 20% the start of 2026
Difficult-While-7673@reddit (OP)
Southwest was the last of the big 4 to ratify their new contract. It appears that helped them leverage some of the big gains from the other majors and add a couple percent to it.
rckid13@reddit
They didn't add a couple percent though. Isn't Southwest the same 17% as AA, UA and DL?
Difficult-While-7673@reddit (OP)
I believe they did add an additional 2% via a cash balance plan in addition to the NEC
rckid13@reddit
UA and DL also have a cash balance plan coming, but I don't think it adds percentage once it's active. It becomes a tax advantaged option to go above the $69k 401k limit.
Negative_Swan_9459@reddit
SW is getting a company contribution. We are not.
shaun3000@reddit
By 2026 company will be contributing 20% of our annual income towards retirement. So if you make $100k the company puts an additional $20k into your retirement accounts. 18% into 401k and 2% into a sort of pension account. Our plan is one of the best 401ks out there. We also have several additional retirement vehicles available to us for excess funds, or we can take it as cash.
CoolDiscussion637@reddit
I’ve blocked 55hrs in the last 30 days, and credited 166.4 TFP. That includes one vacation week. 13 days of flying, 10 days premium, 3 straight pay. 5.8 line guarantee included. Our new contract is so much better than people realize.
notaplacebo@reddit
Shhhh
Bandolero101@reddit
What jumps out to me is how fucking high UPS’ compensation is on an old contract lol
Difficult-While-7673@reddit (OP)
Same. Second year FO pay was more than a lot of big 4 CA pay from the last cycle. Lol
0621Hertz@reddit
Wonder where Breeze and Sun Country fall in this table.
FtheFAA@reddit
They fell off the table.
swakid8@reddit
True statement lol
Dependent-Place-4795@reddit
They’re higher than Allegiant
FtheFAA@reddit
They fell off the table.
Dependent-Place-4795@reddit
Probably close to frontier, higher than allegiant and lower than the legacies of course
rckid13@reddit
The major different that jumps Southwest to the top in those numbers is 401k. Why is Southwest 401k 40% higher than United and Delta? Southwest has the same 17% as United and Delta, and UA and DL both jump to 18% next year. The numbers don't make sense unless there's something in the Southwest contract that adds a lot more to their 401k compared to the other majors.
Negative_Swan_9459@reddit
They’re making more and getting a larger percentage.
despitethetimes@reddit
WN has the same 17/18 as everyone else. The difference is a current 1% going to 2% contribution to the market based cash balance account. 2% extra adds up I guess.
FtheFAA@reddit
SW goes to 20% in 2026. But that might not answer it. Best to go to the source.
Flyingwise@reddit
Can you do one for Air Canada?
Main-Form5974@reddit
.
AwkwardIndividual587@reddit
Finally something my airline isn't last in!
Austin208@reddit
It’s hard to predict this based on upgrade times. I just upgraded at a big 3 at 2.5 years vs your 11 year assumption. I get it’s all a guessing game but the quicker upgrade time vs southwest will have a huge impact over time in a career earnings projection.
Difficult-While-7673@reddit (OP)
The numbers don’t add up that way. The reason being that FOs at SWA are making such a relatively high percentage of CA pay.
You are right about the guessing game. 1-3 year upgrade is the exception not the rule. That will not continue very much longer. Southwest upgrade time is around 5 years and their retirement wage does not come until around 2028.
rckid13@reddit
This can be so different depending on what a person is doing. An FO who both senior, and is hustling to pick up lots of extra trips and premium pay can make as much as a junior captain who is doing nothing but sitting reserve and never working. But a senior captain who is also hustling for those trips will significantly out earn the FO who is doing it.
Difficult-While-7673@reddit (OP)
Yes but that is equal among every airline.
Jmontvilo@reddit
Lots of 3 leg back wards transcons
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
Repost from Kit Darby:
US Major Airline Pilot Pay – 3.8% increase for 2025
Here are the latest monthly and annual pilot pay values. The three airlines without recent contracts Allegiant, FedEx, and Frontier have lower monthly pay values than other airlines in their category. UPS, where all FO’s and Captains make the same rate regardless of equipment, has the highest pilot pay value for Major cargo airlines and Southwest has the highest starting pay through the first 4 years and as a new Captain through 15 years. American has the highest monthly rate overall for senior wide-body FO’s and Captains.
The average pay increase for 2025 is 3.8%. and the average increase for new contacts over the length of the contract is 31.6%. Initial year average increase for a new contract has been 21.3%.
Airline Pilot pay increases at the Major airlines (5.24%) has doubled the inflation (2.47%) rate since 2010 and is expected to continue that trend if the negotiated annual increases are realized.
Assumptions: Captain in 11 yeas Based on current fleet Average hours per month No extra flying No premium flying
Other pay items NOT include: up to 47% more in career value Retirement contributions of 15% to 18% of monthly/annual pay, 100% Company paid. Profit sharing which averaged 6.4% in 2025. Non- retirement benefits -15% - life, health, dental, and vision insurance. Company Social Security payments – 6.2% up to $176,100 in 2025.
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