how did they come up with 28 mph max for pedal assist?
Posted by blackratsnakes@reddit | ebikes | View on Reddit | 96 comments
Why not 27 or 29, does anyone know why 28 mph was the magic number?
NorseGlas@reddit
30mph is the max speed for mopeds in most states in the United States.
My theory is that they were made 28mph so they can be registered as mopeds. Easy to register an e bike as a moped in my state since you don’t need a license or a title for a moped…. Just need to have a bill of sale and moped insurance that costs ~$30 a year and they give you a tag.
sanjosethrower@reddit
Unlike what is and isn’t an electric bicycle, the particulars of how mopeds are regulated varies more substantially across the country.
NorseGlas@reddit
28mph is not an e bike here.
e bike has to have 2-3 wheels, a straddle seat, max speed of 20mph on its own power on a level surface, operational pedals, and no more than a 750w motor.
Moped does not matter what type of seat, 2-3 wheels, no more than 50cc if gasoline, top speed under 30mph on a flat surface.
stormdelta@reddit
That depends on which state you're in. Many states allow 28mph on "class 3" e-bikes.
The 750w requirement is common, but kind of meaningless in practice.
NorseGlas@reddit
Yea no classes in my state. If it goes faster than 20 but less than 30 it’s a moped, faster than 30 it’s a motorcycle.
If it doesn’t have pedals it’s illegal on the road so no scooters at all except the gas ones.
ReedmanV12@reddit
28 mph is about 45km/hour. Since most of the world is metric maybe it was for marketing purposes. It would be thrilling to set max at 50 mph (80km/hour) but current transmission and brake technology might not be able to withstand that speed!
godzillabobber@reddit
There are ebikes out there that can go 80mph. They are called e-motorcycles though. You are correct a out the limitations of bike tech. They just aren't made for high speeds in traffic. There is certainly a place for electric mopeds, but they may need more scrutiny and regulation.
stormdelta@reddit
That's the reason I heavily oppose calling those things "e-bikes". I've got nothing against electric motorcycles/mopeds/dirtbikes/etc, but there's very good reasons those are regulated differently than bicycles, and those reasons still apply with electric bicycles.
Conflating them only feeds into an ongoing problem of people abusing loopholes to be extremely reckless and endanger others around them.
godzillabobber@reddit
That problem will go away with legislation, but seems to be throwing out the baby with the bath water because the restrictions are on the bikes and not the behavior. There are those that need a powerful bike for reasons other than reckless speeds. Those with limited mobility that need a throttle and the capability to climb steep hills. Those with cargo bikes as a truck or car replacement. We need to follow proposed legislation and give our input to make sure that a variety of bikes are available to meet those needs.
stormdelta@reddit
That's exactly why I get mad about the behavior and even more so the companies knowingly selling such bikes.
Because like you said, there's a lot of important nuance that gets lost when lawmakers are reacting to complaints. The power limit is probably the most egregious example - loads of use cases that need more power at lower speed.
My own bike has tons of power and a throttle - but even without a software limit it maxes out around 30mph (intentional on my part). Most of that power is used for acceleration, loads, and hills. And the acceleration is mostly for safety on roads (getting through an intersection from stop especially, as crossing intersections are the most dangerous statistically).
Bubbly-Pirate-3311@reddit
50 mph is easily achievable, and brakes will handle it fine, but 50 mph is fast as absolute fuck, and most people really don't realize that until they're on something doing 50 mph that really has no business doing 50 mph.
WTFpe0ple@reddit
Agreed. I built a 5000w full suspension with 19" moto tires and I did past 50 once to see how fast it would go. ONCE. Even on city streets when no one is around you don't realize how easy little uneven surfaces in the road will send a light (95lb) bike all over the road.
stormdelta@reddit
Yep.
I could run my faster than 30mph, but I have no desire to do so for simple safety reasons. Even 30mph I only do if I judge the situation safe to do so - highly predictable traffic with high visibility on roads with few ways for vehicles to appear suddenly at speed.
Bubbly-Pirate-3311@reddit
Yeah the bike I'm buying soon weighs 95 and does 35, stepping up from a bike that weighs 66 and does 25. I'm excited as hell to go faster though
PdxPhoenixActual@reddit
I was coming down off a bridge & noticed I was doing 40(45?)mph.... realized I was wearing shorts & a tank-top, surrounded by other riders of questionable skill levels, on a road last swept god knows when....
I gradually applied the rear breaks to slow down.
Blitqz21l@reddit
I remember coming down a hill on a standard bicycle and passing cars while I'm the bike lane and then realizing how fast and one bump and I'd probably be dead. Definitely started laying on the brakes then and also realizing how long it took to slow down safely when going that fast.
stormdelta@reddit
Yeah, mine goes up to 30mph but I only do that on roads I'm familiar with and where traffic is highly predictable with high visibility.
But I've been cycling my whole life - I feel like I have better instincts for this than most new riders.
boghall@reddit
Well them’s the brakes.
Bubbly-Pirate-3311@reddit
My bike is heavy enough in the back that I can use the front (strong hydraulic) brake and the rear and slow down VERY quickly. It's awesome tbh
Duct_TapeOrWD40@reddit
The limit between motorised bicycle and motorcycle was historically very thin.
There is an entire category the mopeds in this gery zone, and their speed limits werw 28 (and 30 mph depending the area) This was extended to Ebikes.
Most bikes can reach 30-40 mph downhill safely anway, and using moped / motorcycle parts where necessary can easily expand this safe speed. But at this point we would ride electric mopeds or motorbikes.
Eli5678@reddit
At 50mph, I'd certainly want to wear protection like what motorcycles wear. Fucking hell.
BIRDD79@reddit
Not to mention the increase in serious injuries.
DoubleTigerMUCU@reddit
I've heard that in the US if it goes faster than that you have to abide by more stringent laws (blinkers/headlights/etc). I'm not positive though.
Bubbly-Pirate-3311@reddit
No one gives a crap in the USA lol. You could have an e-bike that does 45mph and as long as it's got pedals and you don't ride like a maniac, no cop will give you crap
Equivalent-Account58@reddit
Let’s face it even on a normal bicycle you can go 45 mph so what is it all about .
stormdelta@reddit
Down an extreme incline hill maybe, no regular cyclist is getting it anywhere near that speed, and certainly not consistently.
hroaks@reddit
People are idiots and will ride their ebikes in roads they shouldn't. Sooner or later, we'll see a news story of an idiot riding an ebike on the highway
stormdelta@reddit
People have already been killed by asshole "e-bike" riders on things that definitely aren't bicycles being ridden on trails meant only for cycles/pedestrians/etc.
Bubbly-Pirate-3311@reddit
Louis Weisz already did it on the shoulder of a highway
Auzzr@reddit
It’s not the cops I’m worried about. It’s the insurance company and being liable or not when I’m part of an accident and by bike is deemed illegal.
Bubbly-Pirate-3311@reddit
Well if you don't ride like an asshole, your chances of getting into an accident are greatly reduced, but yeah if your bike is illegal, even if you're not at fault, you're fucked lol
Auzzr@reddit
I don’t ride like an asshole and still I got hit last week by driver who couldn’t be arsed to defrost his windows. Accidents happen.
emotionally-stable27@reddit
Probably depends on the county, in my county nobody cares as long as you wear a helmet and use proper signaling. In the next county over “LA county” they will pull you over and check the bike if you’re on the road. 😆
Bubbly-Pirate-3311@reddit
Put a 350w sticker and pedals, then when you get pulled over, say you were just pedaling really really fast
emotionally-stable27@reddit
pulls up shorts and flexes quads for the officer 🤣
Bubbly-Pirate-3311@reddit
"I train legs 3 days a week, you don't believe that I could pedal 45 mph officer?"
sanjosethrower@reddit
If your bike doesn’t meet the requirements of the state to be an electric bicycle, it will need to meet some other legal framework to be used on the roads. That usually puts it in the moped or motorcycle category which does have more stringent requirements. Most states have implemented the three class electric bicycle system.
Many people in this forum disagree with the three class system because they want the power of a motorcycle but don’t want the obligations and requirements associated with it.
dkay170@reddit
Never heard of that I’m in nyc as long as it got peddles they don’t bother you
dkay170@reddit
28mph will kill someone on a Ebike always wear helmets stay safe ya
stormdelta@reddit
5mph can still kill you if you land wrong without a helmet. So yeah, always wear a helmet.
xXx_Xhater_xXx@reddit
It's 45 km/h
sanjosethrower@reddit
More specifically, 45 km/h is the speed of speed pedelecs in Europe and being the same in Europe and the US makes things easier for bike makers and sellers. For a reference for this, see this comment.
chgonwburbs@reddit
So now that Trump is breaking up with Europe (and everybody else), let's get that biatch up to 60 mph, boiiii!
trickyvinny@reddit
A Royale with cheese.
chgonwburbs@reddit
What do they call a Whopper?
K1ZZ3RD@reddit
...and they smother their fries in mayo 🍟
DomInNameOnly@reddit
Sir, this is a Wendy's
Sheshirdzhija@reddit
Ok, so how did they come up with 45? Just did not want bicycles overtaking mopeds? :)
brominou@reddit
Here in France, the legal limit for electric assistance is only 25 km/h to be able to ride on bicycle roads. Speed bikes that can go up to 45 km/h of assistance can only ride on road and need to have an insurance and Id plate on the back like a motorcycle
Sheshirdzhija@reddit
Yes, I know. But they still came up with an upper limit. It is not very important how they came up with 45, or why, but I am just curious.
DoubleOwl7777@reddit
45 is the limit for class am 50cc Scooters in many parts of europe.
angrystan@reddit
Historically, the limit for <50cc "mopeds" in most US States is an optimistic 30 mph (48 kph). Aligning our regulations with the wider world, even without round numbers, is probably good.
Federal_Warthog_2688@reddit
It may be that certain roads are only to be used with a vehicle that can reach a minimum speed of 50kmh. This means a car, truck or tractor can use the road but (e)bike, 50cc scooter/moped or golf cart can't.
Blitqz21l@reddit
This seems mire like the answer OP is looking for
Important_Reward_440@reddit
Same in germany
ZeppyWeppyBoi@reddit
This is the likely correct answer.
looneyone48@reddit
Because it’s based off the more common unit/system, and mostly based off the “European standard”
Opposite_Classroom39@reddit
I'd speculate its based on the fact the US DOT had long standing wording in the law regarding motorized vehicles. If it went 30mph or faster, or it had 50+cc of displacement before it required a license. Residential areas have speed limits of 20 or 25. For whatever reason they picked 28 mph as a target.
Legit 2 cycle mopeds made from the 60's on up to the late 80's, were limited to 49 CC for that reason (Honda, Puch etc). No licensing made it more attractive to a broader market. E-bikes being a mostly unexplored territory in terms of a uniform body of standards for laws and safety, the e-bike market wants to avoid unnecessary scrutiny.
Irresponsible riders have injured themselves and others plenty as is since their introduction, lawyers make a living finding or inventing reasons to sue companies.
SpacecraftBathtub@reddit
I heard 25km/h is about the maximum safe to fall head first. Above this it's very likely your skull will break.
I feel confident that 28mph isn't a random number either.
Bill_Meier@reddit
The official number is 45 km/h converted to miles per hour. The number is actually 27.9617 mph but we've rounded it off to 28 mph.
deltanine99@reddit
huh, lucky you it is 25 kmh in Australia. Far too slow.
needareference123@reddit
Pedal faster then. If you haven't built up the strength to pedal faster than 25km/h you should look at getting a motorbike, it'll suit your needs better.
deltanine99@reddit
Pedal faster than 25km and you get zero assist. You are better off riding a regular bike at that speed, it will be lighter. Your comment makes no sense.
ancientstephanie@reddit
The companies that wrote and lobbied for the model 3-class law were mostly european. We already had a patchwork of states that allowed 20mph with a throttle, so they sensibly based class 1 and class 2 on the rules that were already here, instead of copying the european pedelec.
They also wanted to import faster e-bikes though, so they wrote in a clone of the "speed pedelec" or "s-pedelec" rules to be our class 3, this doesn't fit with the other two classes since it's 28mph, pedal assist ONLY.
(The definition for class 3 explicitly rules out a throttle, since it clearly says the motor must immediately stop all assistance when the rider is not pedaling. This has been ignored as if it's an unintended technicality, but we've seen some interest lately in reviving the letter and spirit of the law, with a few states now realizing that the class 3 definition is a perfect tool to go after illegal motorcycles posing as "e-bikes".)
28mph = 45km/h which is the european "s-pedelec" limit, as well as the lowest class of motorcycle/moped in many european countries. In Europe, these are mostly treated as licensed and registered motor vehicles, with the same license category as a moped.
Between 45km/h and 50km/h is the thick black line that separates a moped from a higher class of motor vehicle, with stricter regulations and much higher license and registration costs - unlike many US states, a moped license is basically the lowest class of driver's license in most european countries, and actually easier to get than the full license.
EonPunk@reddit
It probably has to do with the fact that most states in the states, if a vehicle can do more than 30. Miles per hour it has to be registered, and you have to have a motorcycle license to operate it
chuckwolf@reddit
Personally I like the 38 mph my bike does under pedal assist
AluminumHorseOutfitr@reddit
tHaT’s A mOtOrCyClE sir!!!!!!!!!!! You should be forced to pay insurance and registration, have a gps tracker, not be able to ride on bike paths or anywhere except roads, and honestly you should be charged even more than a ford raptor for the privilege of owning that bike because you don’t pay gas taxes. -what watt weenies want our future to be
chuckwolf@reddit
I'm going to assume this comment was sarcasm.... Because everyone knows motorcycles don't have pedals
AluminumHorseOutfitr@reddit
Tell that to the 750 watt hard limit people in here lol
sanjosethrower@reddit
Motorcycles can have pedals.
chuckwolf@reddit
my bike is 750 watts... in PAS 1 at 20% power
Bubbly-Pirate-3311@reddit
Booooo weenies I wanna go fast WEEEE
woodeedooo@reddit
Weeee! Like the Geico piggy
Blues-Daddy@reddit
The top speed for my e-bike is about 40MPH.
gravelpi@reddit
My guess: It's double rounding. 30 MPH is a common speed limit for cities in the past. For example, in the UK the speed limit for streets with lights is 30 MPH (48km/h, https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits ). In the US 30MPH is also common. So when the EU adopted a similar number for "town speed limits", they used 45km/h, which others have pointed out is the limit for a bunch of vehicles like mopeds and tractors. Ebikes follow the EU rule, and converting back to MPH gets you 28 MPH.
Sea_Present9845@reddit
In the US, (at least in Massachusetts) if an ebike goes over 28mph the bike is legally a motorcycle
specialsymbol@reddit
It's five kph less than cars are allowed to drive in cities, so that everyone feels compelled to overtake you and cut you off.
Eventually you'll get it and buy a car instead.
Fair-Discipline-1005@reddit
My bike is unlocked, because I have private land for this speed. On normal mode go untill 37 km/h,on sport mode 50 km/h... Ofcourse,when im on road,is very easy locked on 25 km/h.... Here we still dont have police control,but we are in EU and one day will come here... My bike is engwe X20... Cheers mate...
Equivalent-Account58@reddit
Yeah why not round it up or down.it’s like someone just pulled that number out of their ass.
nrsys@reddit
The speeds used will come from existing legislation in various countries (remembering that manufacturers don't want to produce different bikes for each region, so will standardise a lot). It won't all necessarily be ebike specific but will come from places like what classes as a moped versus a motorbike, electric vehicles like disability buggies and so on adapted to suit the newer technology. So presumably a 15mph/25kph limit will be the point where a vehicle stops being an assisted pedal bike and starts being a moped and needs a license to drive in certain countries.
As for why those speeds exactly? They will have been determined as appropriate limits by the industry and government bodies consulting on the relevant legislation, and will take into account things like rider/pedestrian safety, public perception, the limits of the technology in terms of things like stopping distances and practicality, all mixed together and debated until a reasonable decision could be made.
Fit-Exit4497@reddit
30mph should be the limit
chuckwolf@reddit
The limit should be whatever the posted speed limit is on the street or road you're riding on or the bike lane that goes along it.
richardrc@reddit
Who cares. The law was written at 28, so that is what it is. Why 70mph for interstates?
Kunaak@reddit
Anything past 28 is considered a moped, and then must be registered at the DMV and follow all of the usual laws. Insurance, where you can and cannot use it, license and so on.
To avoid all of that, the limits exist.
emotionally-stable27@reddit
Lots of bikes have “off-road mode”
sanjosethrower@reddit
And lots of those bikes are not legally electric bicycles in the majority of the US.
emotionally-stable27@reddit
They are if you turn it off! 🤣
woodeedooo@reddit
In CA 28 mph is the max speed a bike can go before it needs to be registered and have a VIN number. Anything higher is considered a moped.
sanjosethrower@reddit
From the folks that wrote the model legislation and organized much of the advocacy to get the three class system passed in most of the US.
Muramusaa@reddit
I mean I could go 40mph on my carbon road bike back in the day lol 😆. But down hill boy I'm breaking laws hahah. Heck even Olympians can max to 45 or faster...the best is mark Cavendish at 52mph in 2009 in the tour de France like come on law makers lmao 🤣. I think 35mph to 40mph is fair especially for cars for faster roads. Also having the torque to get away from danger like incoming cars or blind sides or heck a pulling out car had so many of those 🙄. Luckily the worst I had was my bike going under a car of a lady not being damaged much. They made these laws so gasoline wouldn't be disregarded...its laws money maker.
Oldgatorwrestler@reddit
Thor Hushovd was clocked at 79 mph going downhill in a stage once.
Muramusaa@reddit
Lmao yeah of course down hill but id never go that fast accident waiting to happen going downhill but good balls on him couldn't get 1mph for that sweet 80 bummer. Im just saying ebike laws are bs bikes can go very fast they just wanna be gasoline shills so we don't have reason to not have cars but they always will Boston tea tax us 😉 might be time boys the world burning and im sick of being its punching bag hahaha
Oldgatorwrestler@reddit
I was a cyclist in college and after. The fastest I have ever gone was 56.
Muramusaa@reddit
Yeah down hill, I for sure clocked at like 65 hahah but going that fast feels so scary and turns especially or a car coming out of no where. I wont ever do it again at least on a 700c bike , a 27.5 with 3inch or a fat tire with continentals, heck even maguras mt5 abs system sure lmaooo. I think 40mph to 45 is a good limit for flimsy bikes not made to be sturdy or prevent wobble at those speeds also braking.
batjac7@reddit
Speed of a running horse?
cfbrand3rd@reddit
I’m assuming a dart board of some sort…