How can I approach this situation tactfully and professionally?
Posted by aihaode@reddit | ExperiencedDevs | View on Reddit | 40 comments
I have been asked to be a buddy for a colleague on our team who is 1.5 years less experience than me (I have 3.5 years) but who may actually be at the same grade / level as I’m still considered junior/midlevel.
The reason I was asked to be a buddy is because this engineer, let’s call them J, was struggling to complete their first task. What should have taken < 1 month took 8.
I’ve been in this mentory type relationship with J for 1.5 months now. At the start it was rocky, I didn’t feel like J wanted me to mentor them or my help, as when I asked about what they wanted to get out of it they just said “my manager said you wanted to be my mentor”. Also they agreed to meet me in the office and never turned up that day. They said they were there but I looked for them all over and they went offline at 2pm.
I raised these concerns at the time with my manager and they clarified with them the purpose and also assured me that my performance isn’t related to theirs and that I don’t need to manage them at all or monitor them.
Once this happened, J picked up a new task (after they asked me which one to pick). I suggested a task that would be small and easy for them. But from the beginning they were frequently asking me what to do next and I felt like I was required to guide them to their next step each time. Their task was a simple POC of a terraform module that another team had already implemented. However for the first 3 days they spent the time reading background information. They took another week to write a document that didn’t include any POC/testing and asked me to review. I had to explain the purpose of the POC and I suggested they present to the team as well.
I noticed very inaccurate updates on stand up. They would report that they tested in x environment but I would check and it hasn’t been run for 3 days and there were no commits. When I reached out asking if everything was ok they would sometimes just say they were studying for an exam. I’m not meant to be managing so I just let them do that. But the inaccurate updates in stand up sometimes causes misunderstanding. Also despite suggesting they present the POC to the team twice, J updated on stand up they would be closing the ticket. I had to remind them to present a 3rd time, which ultimately helped them gain some respect in the team. Although parts of it were shaky it showed they broadly did the work. However I’m not sure if they understand what they did because again, they updated that they released it to x environment when they hadn’t even created a PR and the environment was pointing to main.
Anyway, there have been a lot of headaches for me, and it’s a bit disappointing to think that J and myself could be getting the same salary and have the same role. I think I have been doing 3x more work.
I already complained once to my manager at the beginning so I feel now I have to keep it quiet unless they bring it up? I think from my non technical managers perspective the updates and progress from J have greatly improved since I’ve been helping them. But almost everything they did it was bc I told them to do it and how. There were a few days I noticed no changes or commits and I paired with them for 20 minutes to guide them on what to do. And the next day they give an update that reflects only those 20 min.
I feel that they struggle with problem solving and critical thinking. I also think, while I have been trying a lot to help them and also push back and suggest that they work on things independently that it almost seems like they want to be blocked. When they have encountered issues in their IDE, they spent hours making no progress on it despite me pointing them in the right direction.
Anyway, Im going to start setting boundaries now and try to avoid doing so much. I think I will keep documenting these performance issues but keep it to myself for now unless my manager specifically asks for feedback on J’s performance.
Does that sound like a good plan?
tnerb253@reddit
How the hell did a 1 month task go unchecked for 8? This is more than a dev issue, this is an incompetence from leadership. The only way I see this passable is if the task was so low priority it never came up otherwise it would've been handed over to another dev and he likely would've been pipped or fired for performance.
You have your answer right here. This person isn't taking you serious or their job seriously. You shouldn't feel obligated to hold someone from sinking the ship. And this is coming from someone who has been let go in the past for performance issues. Once your job becomes babysitting because the other person isn't putting in effort it's no longer your responsibility.
Either you take control or leave the company. You are not going to get much visibility turning a low performer into a high one, they're just trying to offload his work on to you.
aihaode@reddit (OP)
Thanks that’s helpful.
The reason why the task took that long is because it was an onboarding task and it didn’t have an impact.
Update: I noticed that the last catch up between the manager and this engineer (which happens once a month) only took 30 minutes. Then it was my turn for a 1:1 and my manager and said that the mentee was improving and seeming fine, and asked me what I thought. I couldn’t pretend like it was all ok, so I did say that I was still concerned about communication and independence and that I would be providing less direct help and hand-holding. I also emailed them my observations about what happened all in neutral language and reiterating the same concerns and steps. I think they should ask more people on the team what they think.
I was a bit disappointed that my manager said something along the lines of “oh it’s a shame it’s worked out like this because I was hoping you could get some good mentoring experience through this and something to put on your resume for a promotion.” Which I disagree with bc I am doing the mentoring AND I’ve also kind of been managing.
The manager said their next plan is an informal improvement plan. I hope I have nothing to do with that. I’m going to back off now for sure.
tnerb253@reddit
This is part of the problem that makes it difficult to make a judgement call. It had no impact so it's hard to say whether it was a performance issue or a prioritization issue. Were they completing other tasks while assigned this?
Do not manage, that's your bosses job. As a mentor you are there for support and to be an open door for questions or blockers. What I will say is if your manager is assigning you to mentor others then that very likely means they think highly of you if promotion is what you're going after.
That can either be an informal warning or a pre pip. I would just let the process play out from here and do it's job. You're an open door as I said not a manager, let your boss manage people in or out.
aihaode@reddit (OP)
Trying not to manage, but this person was asking for guidance on what tickets to do, how to do them, what to do next, and then making inaccurate updates on stand up which I only chased up because it was confusing and I’m supposed to be helping. But yeah now I’ll take it all at face value and assume they won’t come to me except for help.
I think the 8 month task would have taken me maybe a week only because of various approvals that needed to happen, but it might take someone brand new a month. I think they were able to take 8 months bc they skipped a lot of stand up and took a lot of days off. They claimed things were blocked by external dependencies. There was one time they said they were waiting on a PR review for like a week, and I suggested privately to put it in the special slack channel and that it would only be 10 min if they did. They said they’re going to wait to hear back from the people they messaged first. They eventually put it in the channel 2 days later and got a review in 10 min.
Really hoping I get a promotion soon, bc I’m in the same role as the mentee and I am doing 3x more tickets right now, as well as helping them and helping others outside of and within the team too.
I even found and fixed a bug last week in a day.
eslof685@reddit
.. the FIRST task he got was a month-long project? That sounds completely insane.
shifty_lifty_doodah@reddit
My advice is to be helpful, but really limit how much time and emotional energy you put into it. Maybe 15-30min a day. This person doesn’t seem qualified for the job. Don’t let that be your problem.
LetterBoxSnatch@reddit
You should be telling every part of this story to your manager. Frequently. If they don't hear anything they will assume everything is okay. If you tell them and they give you advice and you follow it and they don't hear anything from you, they will assume everything is okay. And advocate for yourself in stand ups, "helped J with XYZ" or "J and I worked on XYZ" or "discussed XYZ with J"
RebeccaBlue@reddit
> None of their stand up updates mention me at all, and if I had to talk about my help for them I’d be saying it basically every day.
You *should* mention this every day. It's part of what you spent your time on, and if you don't get as much done as you would otherwise because you're helping this guy, *you* are going to be the one to get dinged for it. The thing managers hate more than anything is not communicating. Communicate.
holbanner@reddit
While this is a good advice in this particular setup, It's very weird for me that people think standup are for daily reports.
Stand ups are for rising problems/troubles/unforeseen hurdle and seek help/warn (with) other people from the team.
Most stand-ups on a smooth sprint should be something like :
" alright, we're right on track, nothing to report for me" "Same here?" " Tom you good with the help you got from Jim?" "Yep all good. Coffee?"
RebeccaBlue@reddit
> Stand ups are for rising problems/troubles/unforeseen hurdle and seek help/warn (with) other people from the team.
Ideally, yes, but really, a stand up is for whatever your company says it's for.
holbanner@reddit
My company has no say in that. Stand up is a team level choice.
Minimum_Elk_2872@reddit
You are in a fortunate situation?
holbanner@reddit
I don't believe so.
I just know what agile is and actively preach from the inside
Minimum_Elk_2872@reddit
But you have people who will listen to what you have to say and won’t say “I’m not asking for advice”?
holbanner@reddit
Well I take it more the other way around
If this is going to be a report session, I'm not going to attend. Cheers
Minimum_Elk_2872@reddit
For your own sake, I recommend learning to assume good intent.
holbanner@reddit
That was the very shortened version.
I'm not here to give a lecture about agile and I'll assume you're not here to receive one.
Of course there is talks before I don't come. The essence of which would be daily report is the literal opposite (and a use literal in it's own literal from) of what agile was created for. There are already dozens of tools and micro task i do daily that delivers KPI to micro managers. You don't need me to retell it to you.
Also, I'll pass on that recommendation. I've been working as a dev for some time now, and my sake has never been on the line
airemy_lin@reddit
Whenever people bring up stuff like: standups aren’t for daily reports, one on ones aren’t for check ins, and points don’t equate to time I really wonder what mythical environment they work in haha
athermop@reddit
acheived/goals/blockers every day at our company.
aihaode@reddit (OP)
That’s what it is here.
aihaode@reddit (OP)
No one talks about who they helped, and sometimes I just forget. I’m responding to 3 people a day on chat most days. I only mention if I had a meeting. But with the junior, since she wasn’t mentioning me, it felt like a weird power move to say “I helped J” but I will absolutely start.
marquoth_@reddit
Exactly, and it doesn't need to be confrontational or dropping them in the shit or anything like that. Just a casual "spent some time pairing with J" is enough. It's true, it ought to be mentioned.
RebeccaBlue@reddit
Yep, that should be all that's necessary.
MinuteOrganization@reddit
Is your manager still expecting you to spend time mentoring him?
If other people believe they have improved then tell your manager that you think they're getting caught up and don't require as much help. Specifically it's your guidance got them to their new improved level. Great job!
They have improved as a direct result of your help and you think you shouldn't need to spend as much time with them now. You could imply here you've been giving them time every day but importantly don't give the impression it's been making your own work suffer or that spending less time mentoring will make your output significantly increase. This isn't about helping you - you're simply communicating that your mentoring task is nearly done. It's been rewarding for you and its time for J to get to spread their wings. You're the kind of mentor that skills people up and wants to set them up for independent success.
To avoid the impression that you want to abandon them perhaps state that you think a weekly catch-up with them (30 mins, scheduled) would probably be enough. Of course you're open to adjusting after a month or two if needed! It's important that the weekly meeting is agreed with your manager, not something you do quietly between you and J. Obviously you're available for ad-hoc help - but at this point you're expecting it to be infrequent and you're going to suggest to your manager (and J) that from now on messaging your team's group channel when J has an issue is probably better at this point.
If J doesn't turn up then don't chase them. The mentoring exists for their benefit not yours. After 2 no shows just send J a quick message (doing this over Slack means you have this in writing!) asking if they think you should cancel the weekly. Bring it up casually at your next manager 1:1 that J didn't think the catch-ups were needed so you agreed to stop doing them. You aren't a micromanager after all.
There's some important points here though which are in contradiction to your plan:
After all of this you've shifted the problem to management, you should feel much less obligated to do J's work and their failure becomes much more visible.
levelworm@reddit
I don't think J is salvageable, mate. Just speak to your manager that you can't help him and let's get over with it. Also flare up the unequal workload in the same meeting. prepare a doc if needed.
Professional-Egg3313@reddit
As others have mentioned, you should continue talking about what you did yesterday , including what you did to progress the other persons work. even if you do or other person did, that is teams work and that has to be talked upon in standup., also if you see any risk or roadblocks for Js task, which J hasnt talk about, you should say that as well. I understand your frustration, but this happens in many teams . Think this way, manager asked you ot mentor this person due ot multiple reasons, how much he believes in you. may be he already tried himself and he thinks this person needs mentoring from a peer whom they can discuss without any prejudice.
Epiphone56@reddit
I'm surprised that the first task a new engineer to the team is something that would take a month, to be honest. When someone is being onboarded, I would give them basic tasks (max a day) first just to see what their level of competence and expertise is, and then give them more and more complex problems to solve and greater autonomy once they've demonstrated their capability.
It sounds to me like they need someone to look at the problem with them, break it down into a checklist of tasks to help them produce a solution. Then, once they get more confident, they can hopefully start to plan out their own work.
FYI, I always mention any significant time spent in non-dev work in my stand-up updates.
ashman092@reddit
Hell a month task in general is not great. Unless you're working in month long sprints I guess?
aihaode@reddit (OP)
Thanks - I will definitely start mentioning it.
For clarity the first task was building a new environment and destroy. We are an infra team and we have tf modules for everything. Was a learning exercise the new env wasn’t needed and was deleted at the end.
warmans@reddit
8 months for an onboarding task is pretty crazy. I'm surprised they let it get to that point.
DangerousMoron8@reddit
Let me give you some advice that isn't just about dev. Comparison is the thief of joy. Stop worrying about how much this person makes or much experience they have and how you should make more. This attitude is rampant and toxic in workplaces and in life.
This person is obviously having a hard time, they are in over their head and probably trying to make it. Don't let it affect you, and if you're nice you'd just help them out since a team is only as good as the least performing member. Consider this your challenge, it's part of being a leader and a mentor. Not to get high fives during stand-up. Sorry to be blunt, but this is the truth.
TheWhiteKnight@reddit
> Comparison is the thief of joy
I haven't heard that one before! Nice.
Comparing salaries is useless. Hard not to do but good luck to anyone who assumes that there is strict fairness when it comes to compensation and titles.
aihaode@reddit (OP)
The main thing for me is, they are relying on me and I’m having to pressure them to make progress and guide them to the right steps. I feel like a manager even though we are supposed to be the same level. I think they need a more senior dev than me because I don’t have the authority to really get them to change.
freshhorsemanure@reddit
Some people are just shit and have no business being a dev. Net negative engineers are awful to work with and it's a headache to hold an incompetent Dev's hand all the time
aihaode@reddit (OP)
Thanks i think i’m being taken advantage of a little bit by a peer who is making it seem like they’re doing more work than they are and more independently than they are and I’m not gonna let that happen anymore. I think I’m deserving of a promotion as well. They also don’t really thank me ever in private / face to face. It feels like I’ve pressured them into working a lot. For example when I come up to them in the office and offer to help with their task, or ask what they are doing they say “I’ll come find you later” then they never do + that’s not really what I want bc I can’t necessarily drop whatever I’m doing. I insisted on staying and turns out even though they said they were testing in x test environment that morning, they actually didn’t have 3 of the tools required do that yet.
Curious_Midnight3828@reddit
One question I have is how long have they been on the team? If they are brand new is this also a brand new domain for them where part of onboarding is getting familiar with what the business *is* before adequately developing solutions for it? Certainly sounds like the person is struggling or simply doesn't have there heart in it.
aihaode@reddit (OP)
We are an infra team so it might be a bit different. First few tasks they have been mostly learning. Right now is the first real task to release a small change and it’s taken the team a few days to review the PR.
It’s new to them. They joined 8 months ago, and the previous 8-9 months were on a diff team that did similar stuff but different. They were having a hard time on the other team too.
We have had a few others onboard in this same time period (2 seniors and 1 junior) and it’s been fine for them. I also helped those people out a lot, and I often don’t shout it out in standup.
I just feel like telling everyone who you helped that day sounds immature. If it was just that messages throughout the day, it’s hard to measure the effect of that. No one usually shouts out when they help others.
Annoying_cat_22@reddit
They are not doing the work, either because they are lazy or because they have a 2nd job ("overemployed"/oe). Anyway, they are just on a busy wait until they will be fired. Stop wasting your time.
OldAnxiety@reddit
There are capable people around, no need to keep dead weight with an attitude around.
Make bullet points objective ones, related to your mentorship status. - he does x - doesn't do y - code is at level or z - presentation is un accurate with actually progress.
Present it to your manager and tell them how do they want to proceed.
You propose setting goals and help them improve them and review progress after one month.
And then it's out of your hands
No_Firefighter_2645@reddit
Is there any way you can get to a point where you can give each other the benefit of the doubt at all? It just sounds like you're seeing each other as the problem which is making your relationship very adversarial