the government or control of society or industry by an elite of technical experts.
I don't think so...? It's good old Oligarchies all around. There's the odd Theocracy, Monarchy, Dictatorship or Cleptocracy at the fringes, but... yeah, mostly Oligarchies.
You missed the tech bro meetup at Trump’s inauguration? This is the PayPal Mafia presidency. Musk and Thiel are literally axing the government as we speak.
Fascist-capitalist is a pleonam, btw. Just fascist covers it. If you want to specify the particular "brand" of US 21st century fascism, I'd probably go with corporate fascism.
Medieval monarchies and the feudal system were deeply authoritarian, but it would be anachronistic to label them as "fascist" --those societies predate modern concepts of state and republic, industrialization and mass communication.
Soviet Russia was a brutal dictatorship, but not specifically fascist. I'd suggest Umberto Eco's essay on Ur Fascism for a comprehensive definition of what makes a regime actually fascist.
Yes, the symbol of the fasces is from the Roman Republic period, but it's only related to fascism because Mussolini's party adopted it in the 1920s as part of their own "cult of tradition". Italian fascism was the first to emerge and is considered the "template" of which all other stem from --including german national-socialism.
We might see this on the near future. Late stage capitalism seems to be spiraling into this very specific regime of corporate authoritarianism.
The fasces originated from a non capitalistic empire.
With all due respect, you confuse the finger for the moon. The actual historical origin of the fasces doesn't matter in this context. Its modern use by Italian fascism does. The fasces in its classical meaning is present in most courts of law, for instance. Is justice inherently fascist because of that? Certainly not.
Nearly everyone would call the USSR and NK regimes fascist.
Semantics. Musk still owns a lot of our data and is planning on using that against us. All his projects are in tech. Thiel is essentially the head of the surveillance state with Palantir. Yes they’re also high class now, so they pay other people to do that work. A lot of people in tech these days are more so managers and don’t actually write code or whatever.
They're businessmen who have techies on their payrolls. Big difference. I might have clarified that I meant ""competent in actually making and understanding technology"".
Back that up with something more than Musk isn’t the best programmer. He runs a bunch of tech companies, owns a bunch of our data, literally wants to put computer chips in people’s brains. He’s pretty clearly a transhumanist. His family has a long history with that.
He runs a bunch of tech companies, owns a bunch of our data, literally wants to put computer chips in people’s brains. He’s pretty clearly a transhumanist. His family has a long history with that.
You can be a technologically illiterate transhumanist.
He bought his way into the companies in question, he didn't make the products produced by Tesla, the Boring Company, or Space X.
He has consistently shown the world that he doesn't know what he is talking about or cheats his way into things.
Well since that would include sticking to the democratic process I guess you’d have to say Trump winning the election. Have to respect the will of the voters. I don’t like the outcome myself but that’s liberalism.
I think the oligarchs, no matter their political affiliation, are against the democratic process. That’d be a part of the definition of technocracy. Technocracy being rule of society by the tech elite.
Yes, technocracy could be the rule of society by the tech elite. I didn’t understand what you meant by, “… tech oligarchs see like they jump on either side of the technocracy that’s winning at the moment.” That makes it sound like the two sides are different. I think the current tech oligarchs like to engage in more social engineering than classic liberalism would be comfortable with. I used to think the oligarchs didn’t actually care about things like lgbtq rights and would either support or oppose them based on public opinion but the current actions make it seem like they do care, and they care more about creating a homogenous society based on their own image than they do individualism. I guess we’ll find out in the future if any liberal ideals make a comeback or not.
Well like Zuck for example is switching up a bunch of policies based on the new admin. We aren’t fully in a technocracy, so they still have to play the political games to a degree.
I don’t totally understand the distinction between individualism and oligarchs trying to form society in their own image. It just sounds like another form of individualism, though highly narcissistic.
Well, they seem to be pushing for a serious amount of conformity. If every individual is made in the same image that’s not individualism. Individualism would mean diversity and they seem uncomfortable with that at the moment. I guess it’s still a question if that is their personal beliefs or if they’re doing it for political expediency. I used to believe it was for expediency and that the current tech billionaires were different than the Henry Fords who had “sociology departments” and engaged in a lot of social engineering. Now I’m not so sure, maybe it comes with the territory, you become one of the richest people in the world you also think you know what’s best for everyone and how everyone should behave.
It's not that simple, and arguably, not even happening; alas, something even more terrible may well be happening, instead.
The below are a few related thoughts. They offer no solution, nor anyhow deny or support anything said in the piece; just some related observations which, i hope, are both relevant and true.
The Average Joe in US - was never a capitalist. Social classifications in the literature estimate actual number of capitalists in the US being 0.9%...1%. Vast majority if citizens - are consumers, not capitalists.
Similarly, unlike Germany during WW2, vast majority of US population did not, are not, and i bet will not share any nazi ideals, nor any much of fascism ideals. Quite the opposte, US is famous for its cultural narrative including something like "when all bets are off, it's every-man-for-himself". Once Princeton publication even mentions, quote:
Individualism is a defining feature of American public life. Its influence is pervasive today ... The Roots of American Individualism traces the origins of individualist ideas to the turbulent political controversies of the Jacksonian era (1820–1850) and explores their enduring influence on American politics and culture.
Source - https://press.princeton.edu/ideas/alex-zakaras-on-the-roots-of-american-individualism?srsltid=AfmBOoqCmgiMY-rplkhpNzF6pYEmy-p272oeXU8WhJ6WdFnGBMsZLDZ2 . And indeed, this is complete opposite of fascism's main idea of everyone acting for the benefit of all members of a group (a nation, etc) - instead of acting for the benefit of oneself (individualism).
Thus, arguably, US was, and is, neither a capitalistic society, nor fascistic society. Instead, i argue that for more than half a century already, and still today and into observable future - it's 1st and foremost consumeristic society. This is the most defining feature of the country, as far as i can tell: on all levels except ~10% of its population (estimates vary somewhat) which lives in real poverty today.
And, i wouldn't put any major weight to what "elites" do, too. No matter if US "top 1%" is capitalistic, fascistic, or, say, feudalistic or any other kind - them elites still need the Average Joe to go to work, to do his job, to produce goods and services which, ultimately and often via several steps, end up producing all the fine goods and services which elites require. As such, elites will keep doing what they can to have Average Joe's life bearable enough for him to keep doing his job, and do it well. The elites depend on the nation, in this sense. Not the other way around: frankly, Average Joe is, basically, capable to do his daily life if elites are no more, but the opposite is clearly not true: if all the "commoners" are gone, elites' ways of life will crumble and disappear in very short time.
And then, about surveillance. Sure, there is much of it, today. But how does it change anything for Average Joe? A honest worker he is, any number of capitalist or fascist elites can spy on him all day long - and yet, it won't cancel Joe's need to do his work to earn his paycheck, nor Joe's need to spend his paycheck to have a place to live in and food on his table, nor Joe's contribution to creating some part of goods and services which, in the end, provide the luxuries and high quality of life for those elites. If anything, such surveilance would only make the elites to understand Joe's crucial importance for the elites, which is good.
One different thing, though - is brainwashing. Now that, is real harm. In Germany, Average Hans was much brainwashed to become a fascist, shortly before and during WW2. Very bad results. Today, average Joe in US - is also brainwashed much about many kinds of things, and some of it may well end up no less catastrophically. I don't think, though, that people of US will any soon start to be brainwashed to be, specifically, fascists themselves - but that is only one of many possible catastrophic effects of nation-wide brainwashing of this or that sort. And many of such effects - are very difficult to impossible to fully predict, too.
The technofascists think we are heading for collapse and there will soon be a mass die off (us regular Joes). They expect robots to do the work and the remainder to escape into virtual reality, perhaps with some minimal basic income to keep us pacified. Meanwhile, they will live safely behind their walled, corporate, feudal cities, and all will be surveilled. Sounds nuts, but they say this shit out loud.
Your read of the US is way off. They have moved from cryptofascism to fascism, that Americans do not understand this is one of the reasons it was so easy. As for American individualism has always been a myth that only works to excuse selfishness. Conformism is the norm. I'm in the UK, we are not far behind unless things change.
Who are these "they" you speak about? Elites? I think i made it very clear i spoke about americans as a nation, as a society, rather than their elites, above. And if you mean it's majority of american people who "moved to fascism" - then i strongly disagree, based on my personal interactions with many great citizens-and-residents of the United States. I knew some of them for quite many years, and we discussed all kinds of matters, political ones among many others, in depth. This is the base of my above-expressed, personal thoughts about people of America.
P.S. As always, i stand ready to agree to disagree, if there's no better way for us two to discuss this any further.
Have we interacted before? To illustrate what I mean, I will tell you about an interaction I had with an intelligent American(he had a Phd). It was about the film version of "Starship troopers". Instead of it being a satire of America, he thought the director was a Nazi and nothing I said could change his mind. Hopefully, this illustrates my point perfectly. If you haven't seen the film, my point is that Americans have no apparent idea of how right-wing they are.
No idea if we interacted before; i'm distinctly bad at remembering names, and rarely pay attention to "who" is speaking, instead focusing on "what" is said.
Staship Troopers, though, was one of 1st Heinlein's books i've read back when i was a kid. Only much later, the movie came out - and when i watched it, it felt like one proper insult to the book. That movie, if you'd ask me, is just one big mess and failure. No wonder some people think all kinds of stuff about it, given how messed up it is. And this sentiment about the movie being utter mess - is far not only my own; some excellent points about it were made over the years, e.g. https://www.reddit.com/r/movies/comments/m4ivsf/having_finally_read_starship_troopers_the_movie/ .
This is why this particular example - Starship Troopers movie - is hardly any indication at all about how right-wing, or anything such, americans are.
That said, perhaps i know what you mean. "God Bless America" was always a thing - not "God Bless Mankind" or some "God Bless All Good People", etc. If that's what you meant, then there's perhaps subtle, but definitely cathegorical, difference between americans' traditional view of seeing the world as a kind of "America and some other countries being America's backyard" - and any fascist's worldview: namely, Average Joe of US have always seen all other nations as equally human as americans themselves are, but just living in less-fortunate and less-great a country than americans; while fascists always see "others / outsiders" as not-fully-human. This was the case with german and italian fascism in WW2, this was the case with all the old-colonial times when europeans were wiping out natives in America, this was the case back during Sparta even - the latter, surprises quite many people when mentioned, but is well documented. Some good summary is available at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism_and_ideology#Early_influences_(495_BCE%E2%80%931880_CE) .
The explosion of security cameras post 9-11 and more to the point their acceptance, or the 180 on how people perceived the pandemic from early 2020 to a mere couple of years later were incredible to witness.
Imposing new norms and ideology on the masses is just so damn easy these days. A new layer can be added to the onion of popular delusion at any time, just like that. The narrative machine need only speak it into existence, loudly and repeatedly.
The rise of the surveillance state has been insane. Like, a century or two from now with time compression, they'll look at it as a sharp turn, probably starting 2001. Not just in the US, all liberal democracies have turned into far worse than the USSR ever was, barely a decade after the USSR collapsed. Which is insane when you see the amount of scaremongering that was done at the time to cast the Eastern block as powerful villains.
Haven't lived it, but looking at books and speeches by politicians at the time, it's a recuring leitmotiv, a point of differentiation between western liberal democracies and communisms that the west bragged about. By the mid 2010s, everywhere in the west was worse.
It sounds fast, but we really just accepted it like frogs being boiled slowly. The idea that the government has access to all your emails, phone call, history of locations at all time is somewhere between an accepted fact and a meme, and not a terrifying prospect.
Should techno-feudalism/fascism actually manifest, the coming generations will scratch their heads.
we say this exact shit about china being worse than us in censorship and surveilance etc but honestly seeing the stupidity we don't censor and the truths that do get censored the US is clearly worse.
"Ovia, the ovulation tracking app, now mandates you identify what state you live in. All women should be deleting any cycle tracking data and application from their phone."
Why the fuck would you even use an app for that? How tech-illiterate is everyone?
The following submission statement was provided by /u/hteultaimte69:
Tech giants are aligning themselves with the Trump regime, and the evolving US government. In doing so, we’re moving away from Zuboff’s surveillance capitalism and toward what we can call surveillance fascism.
Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/1iusntm/goodbye_surveillance_capitalism_hello/mdzvmt9/
Tech giants are aligning themselves with the Trump regime, and the evolving US government. In doing so, we’re moving away from Zuboff’s surveillance capitalism and toward what we can call surveillance fascism.
seriouslysampson@reddit
We can just call it Technocracy. There’s both a liberal and conservative wing of this.
JotaTaylor@reddit
I don't think so...? It's good old Oligarchies all around. There's the odd Theocracy, Monarchy, Dictatorship or Cleptocracy at the fringes, but... yeah, mostly Oligarchies.
seriouslysampson@reddit
You missed the tech bro meetup at Trump’s inauguration? This is the PayPal Mafia presidency. Musk and Thiel are literally axing the government as we speak.
JotaTaylor@reddit
My point is none of them are technical experts, they merely employ those. Musk and other CEOs are just oligarchs
throwaway13486@reddit
this. It's a fascist-capitalist regime. A technocracy would imply that actually competent ppl are put in charge.
JotaTaylor@reddit
Fascist-capitalist is a pleonam, btw. Just fascist covers it. If you want to specify the particular "brand" of US 21st century fascism, I'd probably go with corporate fascism.
throwaway13486@reddit
There can be non-capitalist regimes that are fascist (the Soviets come to mind-- at least on paper, considering the massive amounts of corruption).
Corpo-fascism is good too.
JotaTaylor@reddit
Medieval monarchies and the feudal system were deeply authoritarian, but it would be anachronistic to label them as "fascist" --those societies predate modern concepts of state and republic, industrialization and mass communication.
Soviet Russia was a brutal dictatorship, but not specifically fascist. I'd suggest Umberto Eco's essay on Ur Fascism for a comprehensive definition of what makes a regime actually fascist.
throwaway13486@reddit
I mean.... the fasces dates to Roman times.
JotaTaylor@reddit
Yes, the symbol of the fasces is from the Roman Republic period, but it's only related to fascism because Mussolini's party adopted it in the 1920s as part of their own "cult of tradition". Italian fascism was the first to emerge and is considered the "template" of which all other stem from --including german national-socialism.
throwaway13486@reddit
Tbh I would argue that the North Korea and USSR regimes were also deeply fascist (despite what certain armchair commies might say).
Frankly making the definition so narrow seems more like a product of r/ collpase and its rightful immense hatred of capitalism.
JotaTaylor@reddit
It's just that fascism is a very narrow model. We already have a word for broad authoritarianism. It's "authoritarianism".
throwaway13486@reddit
Why dont we just call it corporatism then?
The fasces originated from a non capitalistic empire.
Nearly everyone would call the USSR and NK regimes fascist. Trying ti wrench the word in that way just dilutes its overall meaning tbh.
JotaTaylor@reddit
We might see this on the near future. Late stage capitalism seems to be spiraling into this very specific regime of corporate authoritarianism.
With all due respect, you confuse the finger for the moon. The actual historical origin of the fasces doesn't matter in this context. Its modern use by Italian fascism does. The fasces in its classical meaning is present in most courts of law, for instance. Is justice inherently fascist because of that? Certainly not.
Not really. That amalgamation is US phenomenon.
seriouslysampson@reddit
Semantics. Musk still owns a lot of our data and is planning on using that against us. All his projects are in tech. Thiel is essentially the head of the surveillance state with Palantir. Yes they’re also high class now, so they pay other people to do that work. A lot of people in tech these days are more so managers and don’t actually write code or whatever.
throwaway13486@reddit
A technocracy would imply that actually competent ppl are running the show. It's a fascist-capitalist oligarchy.
seriouslysampson@reddit
Both Thiel and Musk are pretty openly technocrats. I really don’t know what else people need to see?
https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2023/08/musk-thiel-zuckerberg-andreessen-alternate-autocratic-reality
throwaway13486@reddit
They're businessmen who have techies on their payrolls. Big difference. I might have clarified that I meant ""competent in actually making and understanding technology"".
Bored_Acolyte_44@reddit
This isn't a technocracy. Technocracy is driven by expertise in science and technology. This isn't that. If anything, it's the opposite of that.
Even president musk has proven to be technologically illiterate.
seriouslysampson@reddit
Back that up with something more than Musk isn’t the best programmer. He runs a bunch of tech companies, owns a bunch of our data, literally wants to put computer chips in people’s brains. He’s pretty clearly a transhumanist. His family has a long history with that.
Bored_Acolyte_44@reddit
You can be a technologically illiterate transhumanist.
He bought his way into the companies in question, he didn't make the products produced by Tesla, the Boring Company, or Space X.
He has consistently shown the world that he doesn't know what he is talking about or cheats his way into things.
Remember the cave incident?
https://www.vox.com/2018/7/18/17576302/elon-musk-thai-cave-rescue-submarine
He has several shit takes on technology and people that absolutely run contrary to transhumanist positions
https://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-says-unabomber-might-not-be-wrong-technology-bad-2023-6?op=1
https://www.forbes.com/sites/pialauritzen/2025/02/19/can-ai-take-over-the-world-what-elon-musks-dei-fear-is-really-about/
He buys his way into things, lies about being the worlds best and fails.
https://futurism.com/gamers-disgusted-musk-cheats-diablo-path-exile
Employing people who actually know what they are talking about does not mean you are literate in the expertise in question.
This man isn't a technocrat and more than he is a gamer, he's just pays people to look like the biggest nerd in the room.
He's a loser.
Seraph199@reddit
Liberals are conservative. They are all on the same side.
Mister_Fibbles@reddit
Same side of the double-sided coin and they always get first call.
jaymickef@reddit
Thé liberal wing seems to be losing badly.
seriouslysampson@reddit
For the moment that seems to be the case. The tech oligarchs seem like they jump on either side of the technocracy that’s winning at the moment.
jaymickef@reddit
What would you say was the last liberal victory?
seriouslysampson@reddit
Liberal as in the political philosophy of liberal as in the Democratic Party in the US?
jaymickef@reddit
Political philosophy.
seriouslysampson@reddit
Well since that would include sticking to the democratic process I guess you’d have to say Trump winning the election. Have to respect the will of the voters. I don’t like the outcome myself but that’s liberalism.
jaymickef@reddit
Are you saying the conservative wing is opposed to the democratic process?
seriouslysampson@reddit
I think the oligarchs, no matter their political affiliation, are against the democratic process. That’d be a part of the definition of technocracy. Technocracy being rule of society by the tech elite.
jaymickef@reddit
Yes, technocracy could be the rule of society by the tech elite. I didn’t understand what you meant by, “… tech oligarchs see like they jump on either side of the technocracy that’s winning at the moment.” That makes it sound like the two sides are different. I think the current tech oligarchs like to engage in more social engineering than classic liberalism would be comfortable with. I used to think the oligarchs didn’t actually care about things like lgbtq rights and would either support or oppose them based on public opinion but the current actions make it seem like they do care, and they care more about creating a homogenous society based on their own image than they do individualism. I guess we’ll find out in the future if any liberal ideals make a comeback or not.
seriouslysampson@reddit
Well like Zuck for example is switching up a bunch of policies based on the new admin. We aren’t fully in a technocracy, so they still have to play the political games to a degree.
I don’t totally understand the distinction between individualism and oligarchs trying to form society in their own image. It just sounds like another form of individualism, though highly narcissistic.
jaymickef@reddit
Well, they seem to be pushing for a serious amount of conformity. If every individual is made in the same image that’s not individualism. Individualism would mean diversity and they seem uncomfortable with that at the moment. I guess it’s still a question if that is their personal beliefs or if they’re doing it for political expediency. I used to believe it was for expediency and that the current tech billionaires were different than the Henry Fords who had “sociology departments” and engaged in a lot of social engineering. Now I’m not so sure, maybe it comes with the territory, you become one of the richest people in the world you also think you know what’s best for everyone and how everyone should behave.
Fins_FinsT@reddit
It's not that simple, and arguably, not even happening; alas, something even more terrible may well be happening, instead.
The below are a few related thoughts. They offer no solution, nor anyhow deny or support anything said in the piece; just some related observations which, i hope, are both relevant and true.
The Average Joe in US - was never a capitalist. Social classifications in the literature estimate actual number of capitalists in the US being 0.9%...1%. Vast majority if citizens - are consumers, not capitalists.
Similarly, unlike Germany during WW2, vast majority of US population did not, are not, and i bet will not share any nazi ideals, nor any much of fascism ideals. Quite the opposte, US is famous for its cultural narrative including something like "when all bets are off, it's every-man-for-himself". Once Princeton publication even mentions, quote:
Source - https://press.princeton.edu/ideas/alex-zakaras-on-the-roots-of-american-individualism?srsltid=AfmBOoqCmgiMY-rplkhpNzF6pYEmy-p272oeXU8WhJ6WdFnGBMsZLDZ2 . And indeed, this is complete opposite of fascism's main idea of everyone acting for the benefit of all members of a group (a nation, etc) - instead of acting for the benefit of oneself (individualism).
Thus, arguably, US was, and is, neither a capitalistic society, nor fascistic society. Instead, i argue that for more than half a century already, and still today and into observable future - it's 1st and foremost consumeristic society. This is the most defining feature of the country, as far as i can tell: on all levels except ~10% of its population (estimates vary somewhat) which lives in real poverty today.
And, i wouldn't put any major weight to what "elites" do, too. No matter if US "top 1%" is capitalistic, fascistic, or, say, feudalistic or any other kind - them elites still need the Average Joe to go to work, to do his job, to produce goods and services which, ultimately and often via several steps, end up producing all the fine goods and services which elites require. As such, elites will keep doing what they can to have Average Joe's life bearable enough for him to keep doing his job, and do it well. The elites depend on the nation, in this sense. Not the other way around: frankly, Average Joe is, basically, capable to do his daily life if elites are no more, but the opposite is clearly not true: if all the "commoners" are gone, elites' ways of life will crumble and disappear in very short time.
And then, about surveillance. Sure, there is much of it, today. But how does it change anything for Average Joe? A honest worker he is, any number of capitalist or fascist elites can spy on him all day long - and yet, it won't cancel Joe's need to do his work to earn his paycheck, nor Joe's need to spend his paycheck to have a place to live in and food on his table, nor Joe's contribution to creating some part of goods and services which, in the end, provide the luxuries and high quality of life for those elites. If anything, such surveilance would only make the elites to understand Joe's crucial importance for the elites, which is good.
One different thing, though - is brainwashing. Now that, is real harm. In Germany, Average Hans was much brainwashed to become a fascist, shortly before and during WW2. Very bad results. Today, average Joe in US - is also brainwashed much about many kinds of things, and some of it may well end up no less catastrophically. I don't think, though, that people of US will any soon start to be brainwashed to be, specifically, fascists themselves - but that is only one of many possible catastrophic effects of nation-wide brainwashing of this or that sort. And many of such effects - are very difficult to impossible to fully predict, too.
SallyAnnePickens@reddit
The technofascists think we are heading for collapse and there will soon be a mass die off (us regular Joes). They expect robots to do the work and the remainder to escape into virtual reality, perhaps with some minimal basic income to keep us pacified. Meanwhile, they will live safely behind their walled, corporate, feudal cities, and all will be surveilled. Sounds nuts, but they say this shit out loud.
Fins_FinsT@reddit
I didn't see them seriously say that out loud; very interesting. Can you please give an example of it?
cassein@reddit
Your read of the US is way off. They have moved from cryptofascism to fascism, that Americans do not understand this is one of the reasons it was so easy. As for American individualism has always been a myth that only works to excuse selfishness. Conformism is the norm. I'm in the UK, we are not far behind unless things change.
Fins_FinsT@reddit
Who are these "they" you speak about? Elites? I think i made it very clear i spoke about americans as a nation, as a society, rather than their elites, above. And if you mean it's majority of american people who "moved to fascism" - then i strongly disagree, based on my personal interactions with many great citizens-and-residents of the United States. I knew some of them for quite many years, and we discussed all kinds of matters, political ones among many others, in depth. This is the base of my above-expressed, personal thoughts about people of America.
P.S. As always, i stand ready to agree to disagree, if there's no better way for us two to discuss this any further.
cassein@reddit
Have we interacted before? To illustrate what I mean, I will tell you about an interaction I had with an intelligent American(he had a Phd). It was about the film version of "Starship troopers". Instead of it being a satire of America, he thought the director was a Nazi and nothing I said could change his mind. Hopefully, this illustrates my point perfectly. If you haven't seen the film, my point is that Americans have no apparent idea of how right-wing they are.
Fins_FinsT@reddit
No idea if we interacted before; i'm distinctly bad at remembering names, and rarely pay attention to "who" is speaking, instead focusing on "what" is said.
Staship Troopers, though, was one of 1st Heinlein's books i've read back when i was a kid. Only much later, the movie came out - and when i watched it, it felt like one proper insult to the book. That movie, if you'd ask me, is just one big mess and failure. No wonder some people think all kinds of stuff about it, given how messed up it is. And this sentiment about the movie being utter mess - is far not only my own; some excellent points about it were made over the years, e.g. https://www.reddit.com/r/movies/comments/m4ivsf/having_finally_read_starship_troopers_the_movie/ .
This is why this particular example - Starship Troopers movie - is hardly any indication at all about how right-wing, or anything such, americans are.
That said, perhaps i know what you mean. "God Bless America" was always a thing - not "God Bless Mankind" or some "God Bless All Good People", etc. If that's what you meant, then there's perhaps subtle, but definitely cathegorical, difference between americans' traditional view of seeing the world as a kind of "America and some other countries being America's backyard" - and any fascist's worldview: namely, Average Joe of US have always seen all other nations as equally human as americans themselves are, but just living in less-fortunate and less-great a country than americans; while fascists always see "others / outsiders" as not-fully-human. This was the case with german and italian fascism in WW2, this was the case with all the old-colonial times when europeans were wiping out natives in America, this was the case back during Sparta even - the latter, surprises quite many people when mentioned, but is well documented. Some good summary is available at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism_and_ideology#Early_influences_(495_BCE%E2%80%931880_CE) .
cassein@reddit
I'll take that as you don't understand my point or the situation. Good luck with that.
Fins_FinsT@reddit
Do i need to understand your point, though? I doubt that i do. Still, thanks for wishing me luck. I'll take any. %)
MinimumBuy1601@reddit
Remember in the 1980's when we bitched about Tomania having all those cameras and that we would never fo such s thing?
Pepperidge Farm remembers...
breaducate@reddit
The explosion of security cameras post 9-11 and more to the point their acceptance, or the 180 on how people perceived the pandemic from early 2020 to a mere couple of years later were incredible to witness.
Imposing new norms and ideology on the masses is just so damn easy these days. A new layer can be added to the onion of popular delusion at any time, just like that. The narrative machine need only speak it into existence, loudly and repeatedly.
Prae_@reddit
The rise of the surveillance state has been insane. Like, a century or two from now with time compression, they'll look at it as a sharp turn, probably starting 2001. Not just in the US, all liberal democracies have turned into far worse than the USSR ever was, barely a decade after the USSR collapsed. Which is insane when you see the amount of scaremongering that was done at the time to cast the Eastern block as powerful villains.
Haven't lived it, but looking at books and speeches by politicians at the time, it's a recuring leitmotiv, a point of differentiation between western liberal democracies and communisms that the west bragged about. By the mid 2010s, everywhere in the west was worse.
It sounds fast, but we really just accepted it like frogs being boiled slowly. The idea that the government has access to all your emails, phone call, history of locations at all time is somewhere between an accepted fact and a meme, and not a terrifying prospect.
Should techno-feudalism/fascism actually manifest, the coming generations will scratch their heads.
switchsk8r@reddit
we say this exact shit about china being worse than us in censorship and surveilance etc but honestly seeing the stupidity we don't censor and the truths that do get censored the US is clearly worse.
666SpeedWeedDemon666@reddit
Ah so nothing has changed.
Blackinmind@reddit
Anyone surprised by this has not been paying attention
Junior_Mood_9425@reddit
"Ovia, the ovulation tracking app, now mandates you identify what state you live in. All women should be deleting any cycle tracking data and application from their phone."
Why the fuck would you even use an app for that? How tech-illiterate is everyone?
rematar@reddit
The diapered piper led the march.
StatementBot@reddit
The following submission statement was provided by /u/hteultaimte69:
Tech giants are aligning themselves with the Trump regime, and the evolving US government. In doing so, we’re moving away from Zuboff’s surveillance capitalism and toward what we can call surveillance fascism.
Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/1iusntm/goodbye_surveillance_capitalism_hello/mdzvmt9/
hteultaimte69@reddit (OP)
Tech giants are aligning themselves with the Trump regime, and the evolving US government. In doing so, we’re moving away from Zuboff’s surveillance capitalism and toward what we can call surveillance fascism.
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