So first they want to limit your speed to 20 mph and then they want to send you into traffic?
Posted by InfluenceEfficient77@reddit | ebikes | View on Reddit | 107 comments
https://www.sfgate.com/local/article/san-francisco-e-bike-problem-bike-lanes-20036626.php
This article has been making its rounds. I'm sure it's been posted here, but here's some issues that I see.
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San Francisco is made up of hills, what goes up must go down. If they're author knew any physics they had no electric bikes are slower going downhill then properly build cycling speed bikes which have no speed limit in bike lanes. Add to that the back EMF of the hub motor.
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E-Bikers use their bikes for commute because the public transportation is way too unreliable and sometimes dangerous at night, and they're keeping more cars off the road. Because they frequently don't have a car unlike recreational cyclists. Not that it's my theme to go after analog bikes, but it seems like the article gets very defensive about their usage in bike lanes, because the author likes to ride his bike around the city.
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San Francisco has a huge problem with the illegal dirt bikers and they don't give a shit about riding through a playground full of kids. On top of that, there's a lot of crime. Drugs homelessness, unregistered or unlicensed drivers, and a lot of other priorities that police aren't taking care of
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There's a whole fleet bike industry which caters to thousands of tourists that come through the city. They're not fast enough to keep up in traffic. They don't come with helmets. And tourists are frequently not equipped to deal with our healthcare system.
I know this SF gate website is probably the equivalent of toilet paper in San Francisco. And nobody respects their journalistic integrity. But this kind of s*** spreads among Karen's of the internet. So it's important to address it
Ill_Investment5812@reddit
If you want to go faster buy a street bike and pay insurance and liscencing fees.
wlexxx2@reddit
emf during coasting is not a thing
the ebike i had could coast at 40 mph if you could find the hill
InfluenceEfficient77@reddit (OP)
It depends on the motor and the motor size. Anything above a kilowatt will slow you down above 25 or so
Current_Mistake_3622@reddit
I have a 1200w hub motor and you are completely wrong about back EMF. This does not noticeably slow down a bike. I will regularly accelerate to over 35mph when going downhill and not on the throttle. The bike will also coast quite well when at speed and no throttle or pedaling power is applied.
This is because the cheap Amazon special controller doesn’t have regen. And yes I’m looking to upgrade soon.
InfluenceEfficient77@reddit (OP)
If you put a road bike side by side with your bike on the same Hill, you're always going to be slower. You're not applying any power to the motor.
Just because bike go fast does not change how physics works
Current_Mistake_3622@reddit
🤦♂️ You can try and move the goalposts as much as you like. That doesn’t change physics. You are still wrong about the back EMF acting like a braking force. The amount of drag produced by rotating a hub motor with no regen is much less than you are making it out to be. How many people need to tell you that you’re wrong before you accept that?
InfluenceEfficient77@reddit (OP)
How the fuck am I wrong? You are the one moving the goal posts. You just agreed about it slowing you down. If 1-2N*m is too little for you that's your issue. That's not what I am arguing.
Hungry-Breakfast-304@reddit
I've passed Manuel bikes while coasting down hill so many times.
Material-Head1004@reddit
Nah, I’ve hit 40 on my fat bike with a hub motor going down a long sustained hill. It’s pretty easy to do, if you’re not paying attention. No emf is going to apply more braking force than the acceleration of gravity.
InfluenceEfficient77@reddit (OP)
Yeah I threw my bike off a building and it hit 60 so physics doesn't exist
Material-Head1004@reddit
I don’t need hypotheticals, any bike can hit 40 going downhill. You have a nonsensical argument that doesn’t even matter in the grand scheme of things. What are you even talking about?
The hub is going to do very little to slow you down unless you have regenerative braking. Most consumer bikes do not have regenerative braking.
InfluenceEfficient77@reddit (OP)
Physics is nonsense apparently.
justanotherponut@reddit
There was no difference between a controller with regen and one without aside from having regen braking
Material-Head1004@reddit
Not enough to make a difference for your argument. If the bike has planetary gears which is the majority of them, it will basically freewheel on a steep enough grade. Which SF has plenty of. A 750watt motor which is really a 1500w peak won’t start slowing down till it’s past 40.
The thing is I agree with your overall point, but this is a stupid argument.
InfluenceEfficient77@reddit (OP)
Hub motors don't have planetary gears. At least not the ones used in low end fleet bikes
Material-Head1004@reddit
We are arguing about two different things then.
Most Fleet bikes don’t have planetary gears. Most common hub motors that are being ordered off Amazon or drop shipped do have planetary gears. I would call them low end, but cost around 1000 or so. I don’t ride fleet bikes.
We’re getting in the weeds here anyways and straying away from the point.
Bagel42@reddit
It depends. If you have regenerative braking, then it will slow down during coasting and effectively charge your battery. Some electric scooters even have an additional throttle that works like a brake by increasing how strong the regen is. The wattage of the motor does not matter.
InfluenceEfficient77@reddit (OP)
Regen breaking is not needed, dissipates energy into heat
Bagel42@reddit
Do you know what you’re talking about? “Back emf” is regen braking. Most controllers are simply not capable of it.
InfluenceEfficient77@reddit (OP)
back EMF is a force generated by a spinning rotor that creates an electric field that needs to dissipate into something, whether or not it has a path to the batteries is irrelevant to whether or not it exists
Bagel42@reddit
It depends. If you have regenerative braking, then it will slow down during coasting and effectively charge your battery. Some electric scooters even have an additional throttle that works like a brake by increasing how strong the regen is. A lot of bikes don’t have regen though, especially dual battery bikes.
SkinnyDom@reddit
it doesnt matter what they want, noone enforces it
EVE_Burner_Account@reddit
virtually every "e-bike" i see is basically just an electric motorcycle pretending to be a bicycle to avoid the regulations and obligations that should go with motorcycle use. just dozens and dozens of people riding entirely on electric power. half of them dont even have cranks and pedals for human propulsion. they arent even pretending to be a bicycle. the industry seriously needs regulation and you are delusional if you think otherwise.
InfluenceEfficient77@reddit (OP)
The problem is how you going to close the gap between the 15 mph speed limit in the bike lane and the 45 mile an hour speed limit in traffic? Your class 3 and above e-bikes are only going to be going 20-30. Way slower than the cars. So you either need to get an actual electric motorcycle or put yourself in danger
TheFlightlessDragon@reddit
The author is very ignorant, and the article is very confusingly worded in places.
Has it out for fat tires for no apparent reason and with no explanation.
PurpleChard757@reddit
I believe there is a (albeit minor) problem with modded ebikes and dirt bikes on bike lanes, but those are already illegal.
Why do people keep pushing for more restrictions if existing ones are not even enforced yet? The article also provides no data or even an anecdote of how ebikes are actually dangerous to other cyclist.
7HillsGC@reddit
Hey - I live in SF and have biked analog & ebike (when I had to haul kids). Let me tell you: We have a bigger problem with CARS and MOTORCYCLES in bike lanes than some overpowered illegal e-bikes. SFMTA & police stated policy is not to cite for blocking bike lanes, so people do with impunity. There seems to be no consequence to actual plated registered motorcycles flying down the bike lanes either. So…. Yeah, the fat tire e-bikes are really the least of my worries.
And no one reads SF Gate. lol
unseenmover@reddit
Yea. Someone who actually rides in the City. Its isnt about restrictions..its about determining what can and can not use bike infrastructure..
PurpleChard757@reddit
I don’t disagree. It’s actually my point that there isn’t enough enforcement already, so adding new rules wont help. Personally I had close calls with modded e-bikes and scooter but of course cars are a bigger issue.
obeytheturtles@reddit
It's specifically because people who want mopeds try to use the "ebike" as cover to ride mopeds in the bike lane. It's really that simple, and OP is one of those people who believes they are entitled to operate a moped as a bicycle. These people are ruining it for the rest of us, and then whining when they get called out on it.
unseenmover@reddit
the writers (analog bike rider) main complaint is that e motos shouldnt be allowed in bike lanes. And i agree...focus being on the delivery drivers. and e motos.
Also BTCEB is a good organization and offers groups tides and trailwork days..
CloudbasedBS@reddit
lol the problem with SF is the crime and homelessness. Fix that fix everything else. I remember before Willy Brown f'd the city they had operation matrix. After that the city was glorious till "da mayor" took over. Then it is down hill ever since.
Pittsburgh_Photos@reddit
Sorry but points #2 & #3 sound like bullshit to me.
If you want to complain about people advocating for e-bikes to be forced to ride in traffic while also speed limiting them to 20 mph then I’m here for that conversation but the bullshit about public transit being dangerous and the shit about homeless people and drugs is are all tired bullshit conservative talking points.
InfluenceEfficient77@reddit (OP)
Then I welcome you to go to San Francisco and try to ride any public transit at night when people usually get off from late night shifts. Try taking Bart after 2:00 a.m. because it's not even open
Pittsburgh_Photos@reddit
Oh I’m not disputing the fact that transit is unreliable. I’m disputing the claim that it is “unsafe.”
HealthySurgeon@reddit
As an out of towner, who forces themselves to use public transport due to my belief in cutting costs, I find pretty much everyone else I know being extremely nervous when using public transport in MOST cities. My experience as well, tends to respect their fear, cause well, even in my “out of towner” experiences which are FAR LESS than a local, I’ve frequently encountered sketchy situations.
I’m not taking BART at 2am, cause even during the day, I experience sketchy shit, and there’s way less people around at 2am to help control a situation or get help should something happen. Just imagine if you’re a small person, that shit is terrifying.
obeytheturtles@reddit
I am in the same boat as you and have never really felt nervous using public transport when I travel. Even late at night. I have ridden late night busses in DC and SF and the only real sketchy thing I've experienced was people who are in desperate need of a shower, but don't mean anyone harm. I would actually suggest you try talking to them if they make you that nervous.
HealthySurgeon@reddit
Like I said, I’m fine, but I’m a decent sized guy. Most of them wouldn’t see me as an easy target.
Being robbed by homeless isn’t exactly uncommon though and even I, someone who doesn’t live in these places have had to step in and stop a couple robberies.
obeytheturtles@reddit
That's some pretty bad luck tbh - I take transit a dozen times per week in DC and have never seen anyone get robbed on the train or bus. According to the police reports, there were a total of 293 robberies reported all year over the entire system, so it does happen, but it's pretty rare considering that's out of 252M rides, or about a 0.00001% chance of getting robbed. Maybe things are way worse in SF, but that just hasn't been my experience. What has been my experience is people dramatically over-estimating the threat of stranger danger.
HealthySurgeon@reddit
I think that you’re a guy who doesn’t quite understand how people perceive you differently as a target for crime. My experiences are not dissimilar to a lot of YouTube videos show casing these same issues. Your experience isn’t uncommon either, just it only applies to certain people, like average+ sized men.
I, ME, have never had issues, but I’m an average+ sized man. I have great capability of standing up for myself physically. It’s majorly different and it’s visibly apparent before someone would ever approach me.
ThatIndividual77@reddit
You're cooked. It definitely is unsafe.
numbersthen0987431@reddit
They're valid points in OTHER discussions, just not ebikes.
You're not "lying", number 2 and 3 are just bullshit in comparison to what topic you're discussing. It's either a red herring or strawman, and they just don't matter in this conversation.
Discussing #3:
This has nothing to do with ebikes though. You're just throwing in an issue that doesn't matter to the ebike conversation. You didn't even mention ebikes in this point, and it literally doesn't tie in to anything. You might as well have said "Billionaires have yachts" due to how irrelevant this topic point is to ebikes.
Discussing #2:
This has nothing to do with ebikes. Does public transport suck and is unreliable?? Yes. But that has nothing to do with ebikes. It "might" help justify why you chose to ride an ebike, but it's a completely separate issue that doesn't matter with ebikes.
Point #2, part 2 (since it has nothing to do with your opening line for this point):
The reason ebikes are "kept off of the road" is because they're BIKES first, and not motorcycles. Bikes are limited to max speed because of safety concerns regarding control of it, and "bike lanes" are only used for bikes. If ebikes go too fast, then it makes bike lanes too dangerous for non-ebike riders.
People are dumb, and if you claim a 2-wheeled vehicle that is too fast is a "bike", then people are going to take them in the bike lane and/or sidewalk. Imagine seeing an ebike going 45 or 50 in a bike lane, it's not safe for anyone involved.
You can debate what that limit is and/or should be, but there SHOULD be a limit. If you want a fast ebike, then just get an electric motorcycle, and split lanes in traffic. But bringing up this point makes is sound like you want a FAST bike that shouldn't be in the bike lane.
Conclusion:
Just remove points 2 and 3 from your argument, and you'll be fine. But including them is a disservice to the points you're trying to make. Leaving them in will end up with people debating "shitty public transportation", or "the homeless/dirt bikers/homelessness/etc" and completely ignore your point about ebikes.
InfluenceEfficient77@reddit (OP)
The reason for including point 2 is that 2 is because racing analog cycles can easily exceed the speed limit, and they frequently do. Just go on Golden gate bridge and you'll see lots of e-bikes being passed by competitive cyclists. If you don't enforce speed limits and instead outright band e-bikes from bike lanes, those bike lanes will still be dangerous because of people breaking the speed limits
Point 3 is that the current laws are not even being enforced, so you frequently have motorcyclists riding unregistered uninsured dirt bikes in bike lanes.
I'm not going to argue with you as to why or why not I should include this information, but if you have been to San Francisco you'll know what I'm talking about. If not then just make your own post and state your own opinion instead of trying to police mine
numbersthen0987431@reddit
You literally asked for evidence, and I gave it. Don't be upset when you're literally given the thing you DIRECTLY asked for.
So the ONLY reason you're including points 2 and 3 is because "no one is enforcing the law currently"?? That's not a reason, and it doesn't do anything towards your point. You might as well be saying "ebikes shouldn't have a limit because the EPA isn't checking the water for pollution".
Parts 2 and 3 are literally red herrings and strawman arguments, and they serve to purpose here. If you want to keep them then do so, I don't really care. I was just trying to help you since YOU asked for evidence. Good luck to you.
InfluenceEfficient77@reddit (OP)
I asked for evidence to disprove my points, and I still don't see any, all you've done is argue about how they don't fit in with the discussion. And that's your opinion and that's fine. But can you disprove that a regular bikes frequently break the speed limit of bicycle Lanes anyway. Lawlessness and crime are not getting police, and they do have a huge effect on bicyclists, to the point that sometimes you have to bike fast enough for your own safety
numbersthen0987431@reddit
This has nothing to do with ebikes.
This has nothing to do with ebikes.
There's your evidence. It's not my "opinion", it's a literal fact.
InfluenceEfficient77@reddit (OP)
It's just evidence that you don't bike on the regular in San Francisco,
sanjosethrower@reddit
How many times have you shown up to SF Public Meetings to call for more enforcement of the laws for bicycles and bike lanes?
numbersthen0987431@reddit
You have zero evidence of that.
InfluenceEfficient77@reddit (OP)
And you sound as incessant as Trump posting shit on twitter. There's only one way to deal with this and that's full blockage
cakebythejake@reddit
The number of times I was being intimidated by a homeless person going through a bout of psychosis on muni is PROFOUND.
The last time they were standing toe to toe staring at me and growling. I sat on the bench seat, silent and had to pretend nothing was happening.
I had a makeshift weapon ready to throw hands and protect my partner.
The public transit system is NOT safe.
Pittsburgh_Photos@reddit
Seems like you were safe to me.
obeytheturtles@reddit
Yeah these threads are always wild. "A smelly man was on the same train as me and made eye contact."
In this case, safety really is a state of mind. I wonder how many of these people have ever tried just a standard "hey, nice day isn't it?" in this situation, instead of letting their mind run wild about getting stabbed.
obeytheturtles@reddit
The whole argument is dumb. I assume OP made this post after ranting about this in another thread, so I will make the same points here:
1) For cycling safety, speed is far more likely to get you in trouble than it is to keep you safe, especially if you are riding beyond your skill level. There is a difference in how a moped and a bicycle operate, and what the safety considerations are for each. Yes, riding a bicycle in traffic can be dangerous, and requires a relatively high degree of skill and experience, but tons of people do it every day without needing to go 35mph. If OP wants an moped then OP should get a moped. If OP wants a bicycle, then OP should learn how to operate it safely.
2) The very idea of kicking e bikes out of the bike is very specifically a reaction to OP's attitude that he should be allowed to blur the lines between mopeds and bicycles. And it is a cautionary tale many have repeated over and over again. OP's petulance on the issue is extremely telling about their ability to engage with the topic - obviously nobody wants this to happen, which is why many of us are so adamant about calling out these "wink and nod" bicycles for what they are - because we fear this kind of overreaction is inevitable. Many places ban mopeds in bike lanes for good reason, and this is no different.
Prime624@reddit
Also kinda numbers 1 and 5. E-bikes aren't noticeably slower going downhill than regular bikes, and wider tires don't make a bike slower.
Pittsburgh_Photos@reddit
I agree. I’m faster down hill than others I ride with.
thwonkk@reddit
It CAN be dangerous, it's rare and often overstated. It's really not riskier than biking tho lmao.
But I mean it definitely is unreliable. And not having freedom of choosing your own paths can really suck at times.
So half true points, but again overstated. There are issues with public transit but I also agree with you. When we start saying it's because those scary homeless people are daring to use it to stay warm then we minimize the issue and invalidate our other claims.
Pittsburgh_Photos@reddit
I agree with this. The argument that public transit is unreliable is absolutely true. The claim that it is unsafe is not based in reality.
bigthighsnoass@reddit
okay that's false af. please see multiple murders and deaths occurring in both the bay area and NYC public transit. most recent example: a lady literally LIT ON FUCKING FIRE in the nyc subway. people here in nyc are palpibly scared as fuck.
please do not make a blanket claim that public transit is not unsafe. because for fucking sure it can be.
thwonkk@reddit
Recency bias. Media blows stories up and while being lit on fire is very scary, it does NOT compare. Riding the subway, in contrast to driving or cycling, is astronomically safer. Riding the bus is less safe but still much safer. Yes, freak accidents happen, but we do not and will never live in a utopia.
The argument of safety is coming up in a context of being compared to other means of transport. Getting from point A to point B is objectively unsafe no matter how you frame it, you face risk every time you leave the house. It's about minimizing that risk, and public transport is pretty damn good about risk management, especially trains.
Ok-Image-2722@reddit
#2 & #3 are true in any part of the country. lol
Pittsburgh_Photos@reddit
Not true in my city.
Ok-Image-2722@reddit
Any part of the country. Never said every city.
Fakeduhakkount@reddit
That’s big facepalm. There a reason why certain vehicles are prohibited on freeways: they can get up and maintain freeway speeds.
Arcanum3000@reddit
Your point 1 is only true for direct-drive hub motors. Mid drive bikes will coast exactly the same as analog bikes.
ParkHuman5701@reddit
Ebikes also weigh more. The idea that would be slower downhill is just clueless. The world is not a vacuum.
obeytheturtles@reddit
It also only makes sense if you are allergic the pedaling.
InfluenceEfficient77@reddit (OP)
Wind resistance and friction has a lot of impact on it too. And e-bikes are not very aerodynamic and often have a lot of higher friction components, especially with the bigger tires
JasperJ@reddit
… no? some e-bikes have that. Mine is pretty much a standard touring bike outside of the mid drive and some battery weight.
TobiasH2o@reddit
So if that's your concern get a road bike?
InfluenceEfficient77@reddit (OP)
Have 3 already thnx
TobiasH2o@reddit
Then if you want to have a low resistance ride use the road bike? I'm really confused.
Speedtospare@reddit
You have the misconception that a bicycle is supposed to keep up with traffic. It's not. If a motorized vehicle can keep up with traffic it needs to be treated as an on-road vehicle. An electric vehicle that is way faster than a bicycle shouldn't be allowed in the lanes that are bicycle uses. An electric bike is supposed to be comparable to a normal everyday bike and use the same pass and rules. The problem is with people like me who modify everything to go way above and beyond.
obeytheturtles@reddit
Exactly this. The idea of a bicycle needing to "keep up with traffic" in order to be safe betrays a very fundamental misunderstanding of cycling safety concepts in general. Urban bike commuting is definitely a thing which takes a decent amount of skill and practice to have both the bike handling skills, and the awareness to stay safe in traffic.
InfluenceEfficient77@reddit (OP)
What about streets that don't have bike lanes?
What about when cars or drug addicts park themselves in bike lanes?
The sensible solution is to have a bike that can do both. They usually have a power setting or a throttle limit that you can apply when in a crowded bike lane and remove it when you have to ride in traffic
CrotaIsAShota@reddit
You can ride regular bikes on roads. Just deal with being slower than the flow of traffic and follow all your local laws and it'll be no big deal.
InfluenceEfficient77@reddit (OP)
The issue is the laws aren't enforced for cars. So many unregistered and uninsured drivers, criminals, drug addicts, all behind the wheel. And then you have the worst category. Rich tech fuckboys with big trucks no skill and no care for speeding tickets
57hz@reddit
And yet there are tons of people who modify nothing and just ride their e bikes for pleasure or commuting.
Speedtospare@reddit
I completely agree. I just didn't want to get the misconception that I'm one of them. All my bikes are built by myself so everything is technically modified. I have my mode switch set to limit rpm/speed in pedestrian areas to the legal limit in my area. I don't limit wattage as my bike climbs steep hills with ease but doesn't exceed legal speed.
NewsreelWatcher@reddit
London is has a limit of 20 mph on most streets for the safety of pedestrians. This is the speed below which collisions are mostly survivable. Above that speed most people will die. A similar limit of 30 km/h can be found in other cities. I don’t mind a limiter when the motor vehicle traffic is going the same speed. Busy city streets are some of the best routes, because traffic is slower than most cyclists. Strangely this doesn’t stop motorists from getting “get-ahead-itis” where the close pass only to brake hard in front of you. A network of low speed limit streets just makes everything better.
Singnedupforthis@reddit
That is true for cars not ebikes. The danger and likelihood of being injured or killed by cars is significantly higher when people choose driving a car over an ebike even if the ebike is capable of high speed. London/Europe would be much safer for pedestrians, cyclists, ebikers, and other vilnerable users if they removed their limitations on ebikes and expanded their cycling infrastructure.
NewsreelWatcher@reddit
FYI The speed limit of 20 mph (30 km/h) are to protect pedestrians from motor vehicles. The latest moral panic in the UK is over unlimited “e-bikes” that is threatening to have all electrically assisted bicycles banned. I found the EU standard limit of 25 km/h is fine for cycling in where streets designs and driver behaviour is of good quality. North America is not of good quality. I was impressed with how respectful drivers in France were. Yes I like having the extra acceleration to get myself out of tight situations while cycling in Toronto. 25 km/h limit on e-bikes works where the safety of pedestrians comes first. I find slower speeds are much more controlled when pedestrians are around and drivers were much more predictable. At lower speeds common sense and courtesy replaces “rights and rules”. Actual travel time is little different at slower speeds when traffic is stop and go. When you live in a place where cars come first, extra speed and acceleration to match traffic is needed. The UK has made some changes in places like London, but motorists are still privileged in most of the country which is why unlimited e-bike have a market.
Singnedupforthis@reddit
Thanks for your insight. The ebikes in London and Europe are limited to 15 miles per hour so they are effectively useless in my experience. I don't know why anyone would support a speed limitation on ebikes that have to navigate a wide ranging variety of terrain and interactiins, but be okay with cars that do not have such limiters, despite being far more dangerous. Ebikes are held back because of this and cars are far more desirable as a result.
obeytheturtles@reddit
Yes, and they are doing this because people are riding mopeds in the bike lane. Like people told you would happen.
dundundata@reddit
They don't limit how fast cars can go though....
starkruzr@reddit
I mean, this whole thing is fucking stupid. please stop and think. are you really going to sit in front of that computer/phone and try to tell us with a straight face that SFPD is going to issue you a ticket for doing literally nothing other than riding an e-bike at 25mph?
really? REALLY? I do not believe that you believe that.
Blitqz21l@reddit
The problem, at least in most of the ebike laws that are seemingly coming is that they are trying to regulate and illegalize the Surrons and Telaruns, modded unclassified ebikes, but doing it by essentially making actual class 3 bikes illegal.
I get they want to get the Surrons, etc... out of bike lanes, and reclssify them as e-motos. I think that's the correct move, but then don't throw in a pedal assist only class 3 ebike in the mix. At least imo, those that own actual class 3 are the ones that don't want throttles, that just want an easier commute, easier hills, less sweaty, etc...
Don't try and fix a problem that actually isn't the problem.
Further, forcing class 3 ebikers onto roads creates a dangerous environment for car drivers as well as the ebikers. Drivers don't want them there and ebikers don't want to be there.
And side tangent: We don't ban sports cars from roads. That have vastly more horsepower than is needed to drive on roads. They just have to relatively obey the rules of the road, because we all know no car driver actually drives the speed limit. Why can't we also do the same for ebikes? Go after the riders that are causing the problems, not the ones that might have a higher powered ebike/escooter but are keeping their speeds down and obeying the rules of the road. Just like you want to go after the wreckless drivers, go after the wreckless ebiker/escooter users.
Personal side tangent - I gave up driving over 10yrs ago. Cycled, esk8, ebike, escooter, etc... Only time I had an issue was when a driver didn't look and I ended up tboning him in a crosswalk. Never once have I wrecked my esk8, escoot, ebike. I understand the road, the rules, how it works, how to stay safe, etc.. And if I'm somehow forced on my class 3 ebike to ride on the road, it'll only make it much more dangerous for me because I'm going much slower than traffic. I'd be subject to road ragers, pissed off people, probably yelled at, drinks and spit thrown at me for doing what some new law says I'm supposed to do. All the while people sitting in their cozy cars, breaking the law by speeding almost every single second they are on the road get away scot-free.
TheLordHumungous@reddit
You want to go fast? Pedal or get registered and insured for your motorcycle.
InfluenceEfficient77@reddit (OP)
The irony is that a 28mph class whatever e-bike can do 35 when I pedal
sanjosethrower@reddit
Which bike is that? Did you have to change the chain rings to get that top speed?
InfluenceEfficient77@reddit (OP)
Just a larger front sprocket
icyple@reddit
Is this about E-Bicycles or E-Motorcycles?
Anxious-Depth-7983@reddit
Both authors are missing the point of the problem. The point is that people on class 3/4 E-bikes are driving recklessly and endangering everyone by ignoring simple safety rules and etiquette. I have been to San Francisco and I can't for the life of me imagine how difficult it would be to ride up those hills without the assistance of an E-bike at my age and state of disability, but it doesn't mean that I would continue to ride at top speed when others are in the bike lane with me. The "passing on the left" is part of the etiquette that's being ignored by unregulated and uneducated cyclists that are endangering everyone. This issue is about the behavior of people, not the ratings of the E-bikes, as well as the driving of motor vehicles and the ignoring of the proper use of the bike lanes. I doubt that any commuter has the option to shower after arriving at work, and there's no way that someone has tangled with the San Francisco hills and not become a sweaty mess unsuitable for the office afterwards. It sounds to me like San Francisco needs to reinstate the beat cop and outfit them with class 4 E-bikes in order to catch and police the bike lanes and motorists that abuse them.
sanjosethrower@reddit
Did the two times you posted this article in other subs not get you the karma you hoped for?
Btw, the speed limits for electric bicycles didn’t change between last year and this year.
Muramusaa@reddit
The problem is lobbies for gas and they want to make sure they don't lose there money to our electric toys then they will just make volts the new king to exploit.
sanjosethrower@reddit
Said like someone that has spent zero time in the process that legalized (and mostly standardized) electric bicycles across the country.
If you want things more powerful than electric bicycles allow, buying a moped or motorcycle is easy to do.
Traquestin@reddit
California is a democratic state can’t you just vote
ThisAdvertising8976@reddit
I’m older and ride an e-trike. It’s Class 2 because it has a thumb throttle that I rarely use. Many seniors are embracing the e-trikes because it gives them a sense of freedom and mobility. We’re not allowed on sidewalks, please don’t go pushing us out of bike lanes and into the traffic so many tell us we’re too old to be in.
Fakeduhakkount@reddit
“Placing e-bike riders in the regular lanes of traffic would not only make bike lanes a safer place for regular cyclists but would also make e-bike riders much more visible to car drivers”
Same BS applies to regular bicycles too! By that logic bike lanes are a scam since it removes their visibility!
ThisAdvertising8976@reddit
e-bikes are a threat to the often fragile ego acoustic riders seem to have. Having their own lanes gives them “hey, hey, look at me! I’m saving the earth and getting physically buff by riding my $3500 composite racing bike while everyone one else is inferior to me” vibes. They don’t want to share the road with anyone, especially someone who isn’t using the power of their thighs. 🤮
jackssww@reddit
You guys just learned that some people pass laws and regulations not based off logic,
but based off feelings?
godzillabobber@reddit
Back in the nineties, a handful of us in Arizona got reasonable laws passed concerning motorized bikes. That is the only real way I know to get laws changed. You'll need to recruit a bunch of people, especially seniors to bring awareness and proposals to the city council and state legislators. Start showing up at public meetings held by individual councilpersons and go to meetings of the entire city council. You can fix it. But not if you don't take action nothing will change. Wear a tie and be well spoken.
Away-Revolution2816@reddit
I use my bike as my primary source of transportation. I live in metro Detroit so no bike lanes or mass transit. Most major roads have sidewalks with zero pedestrian traffic so I use those or route around on side streets. There is one ride I take that if I had a breakdown at night it would be very dangerous. I avoid it, I can carry my gun but that defeats my enjoyment.
BenEWhittle@reddit
That was an interesting read. Personally, without sugar coating it, this sucked. Like bad.
The purpose of this article is to argue for the authors vision of an improved bike lane. To Dan Gentile, this means banning everything except analog bicycles and forcing everything else into the flow of traffic. This is really bad and stupid for a number of reasons and should be obvious to most why this is a horrible idea.
Lets get something out of the way. Reading between the lines, the author doesn't actually care for an objectively improved bike lane, he wants his bike lane. He is upset he has to share it with others.
He delves into etiquette and safety hazards of riding conditions/other riders, but only to the conclusion of "make MY world better" and not "make OUR world better". It's genuinely hard to care about what he's saying, the author does not care for anyone else's conditions except his own.
I can't engage with this in good faith, the author is quite literally only concerned about his position and no one else.
Two closing notes: thank god he's a journalist and not a city planner, and jesus is he ever so close to saying "get these low income people/minorities out of my precious bike lanes".
AluminumHorseOutfitr@reddit
This is the most San Francisco bullshit I’ve ever read in my life.
I ride my 35 mph Ghostcat on bike paths and on our green belt all the time. And then on side streets I act like a car. Because it’s simple, I have a sense of personal responsibility to my civilization and I ride in a safe manner no matter where I’m at. My 85 pound Ghostcat is safer with me riding 15 mph (if not slower during extreme congestion) than someone on a “legal” e-bike or even a road bike doing 20. Enforce the speed limits and rules of the road, it’s just like with cars.
TheDarkClaw@reddit
road speed limit in urban and densely populated areas should be reduce to 25mph(at the max while 20mph is the minimum) .
latteofchai@reddit
I live in NY. And yeah we have similar issues to California. I feel like personally our time might be better invested in solving other issues but what do I know? I’m just a drink on Reddit