I don't understand why anyone would spend $47k on a WRX ts with other options in that price range or much less including the Elantra N, Golf R, Corolla GR, etc. That is absolutely insane money for what is essentially a last gen WRX STi amount of money with 30 less HP and without the advanced setup of limited slip differentials at front, rear, and center w/ driver adjustable torque distribution.
2015 STI posted 3:10.5 in 2014 so essentially just as fast as a 10-year old STI's performance... If it was my money no chance spending that kind of money on the tS when you can get buy a CTR or pay a bit more for ITS ... and this is coming from a 2006 STi owner.
Hmm, AMG GT63 a bit disappointing for anyone else? Surely a forced induction v8 sports car should be able to beat a similarly priced midsized sedan in the Blackwing?
I find it hugely disappointing compared to the previous gen AMG GT. Previous gen was an excellent 2-seater FE RWD platform that was probably the best in the biz at the time, (sorry C7 Corvette).
Now it's been replaced by a 4-seater AWD coupe that shares a platform with the MB SL and shares the similar squished proportions of the SL. Looking at the side profiles of the old car and the new one is disheartening.
I don't think it's surprising. Mercedes really leaned into the "GT" aspect of that car this go around. It's actually 200lbs heavier than the Cadillac is if you can believe it.
It's more luxury-oriented than it used to be. It's a different car with the same name. The new one is larger in every dimension, has gained two seats, and has more amenities than the car it replaced.
2+2 coupés that mix luxury and sport are heavy. Most are over 4000 pounds. At the heaviest end you have Bentley and Rolls Royce which were over 5000 pounds even before electrification. The new car is
The GT they had was the non-hybrid. The hybrid isn't out yet. 4000+ pounds is just what grand tourers weigh. The M8, LC500, DB12, and GranTurismo are all at our over 4000 pounds. Only the Ferrari Roma is significantly lighter.
Yeah I mean this all screams of manufacturers trying their best to build what customers want while also meeting regulations. Maybe in the modern era the only way to get a European ttv8 is to add in half a ton of hybrid systems.
That might be a big ask, but at least for the exhaust sounds being neutered on modern cars, I could easily see OEMs offering dealer-installed set ups for different markets. They could charge a few grand, offer a warranty, and watch the money flood in.
All they really need to do is offer a disclaimer “for off road use only”
The GT4 RS MR is seriously impressive. I know it's basically a full racecar but being faster than the Revuelto with double the horsepower is pretty mind boggling.
To be fair to the Revuelto, it’s a big V12 Lambo without much in the way of downforce, while the GT4 RS MR is set up specifically for track duty. While the Revuelto is a much better drivers car than the Aventador in every way, it’s still only the, “base” version, crazy as that shit sounds. The track-focused SV will be the one that really slices and dices a circuit.
I know the ZR1 has MASSIVE turbos, but it’s still crazy how the ZTK high downforce car that GM used for their lap records trapped a considerably higher trap speed than the more slippery Revuelto on the straights at VIR. 179mph at VIR Full for the Corvette vs 168mph for the Lamborghini, and a full fat 180mph at VIR Grand. The ZR1 is fucking insane.
This is only the start for the Revuelto, though, which is just nuts to think about.
I received approval to add the C8 ZR1 to our small stable. Even though this car has exceptional speed Samurai in this forum commented the following. "At DaNascar Camaro on Lightning Lap last year was like 12 seconds faster at VIR than the new C8 ZR1 street record that beat the Senna".
One of the comments on C&D’s site reads “Who cares about some one-off F-150 Lightning Super Truck. Track street legal cars that people actually buy.”
I am growing very tired of this degree of cynicism in every corner of discussion on the internet, this subreddit included. I get the sentiment of that commenter, except that ALL OF THE OTHER cars in the test are street legal cars people can buy and take to the track. Plus, it’s just fun! Seeing these insane racecars run at Lightning Lap as benchmarks and displays of racing technology is just interesting! It takes nothing away from the rest of the Lightning Lap assessment of the otherwise “normal” cars and only adds to the excitement of the article. They aren’t out here running only racecars for an article.
People can't comprehend how fast race cars are, i think its a great addition to have one race contender for fhn. Saw recently a post from Daytona 500 how a C8 Stingray could be a pace car, since they claimed it would be faster than the Nascars. Meanwhile the Nascar Camaro on Lightning Lap last year was like 12 seconds faster at VIR than the new C8 ZR1 street record that beat the Senna 🤣
I would have thought that the GT4 RS MR would come out on top for sure, super impressive on the part of the Air
sidenote, is the MR package an actual option you can spec at the dealer? I was under the impression that you needed to make arrangements to send them your vehicle after it rolled off the production line
I just noticed the time for the GT4 RS MR is slightly slower than the GT4 RS they ran two years ago. Sure it’s not the same day with the same weather and it’s hard to compare times and they said the laps the driver got a few years ago were a bit cleaner, but for 60k dollars installed you’d expect the upgrade to do a bit more than basically be about the same as the base car.
Huh!?! It's faster than an X4M Comp, GLC 63 S, and the Stelvio Quadrifoligio.
You gotta remember it wasn't built to set the best times. It's just suppose to be a really good car to drive which is fun but also resilient on track. It's tuning it's like a Porsche, for example. Still has a slightly edge-y feel where the car will oversteering pretty easily if you want it too. Also not to mention it's running slightly eco focused tires for low rolling resistance. Idk why they bothered with that though tbh
Well in the article they mentioned never using the boost button so at most they were pushing 600hp. But even that I doubt 600 because Hyundai limits power in track or whatever mode to keep it's thermals in check.
Cayenne Turbo GT Coupe did like 7-8 seconds faster while making a decent bit more HP, weighing 100lbs more, and some insanely wide/grippy tires. I'm sure the Ioniq 5 could do like mid 2:50s with better tires and full power
Definitely. 2021 Audi A4 45 Quattro had better lateral grip around a 300ft skidpad versus the Ioniq 5N in caranddrivers instrumented test. Better tires would help but I also wonder how much worse it's range would get... 😳
And burns through most of its battery in a single lap. Makes sense for pikes peak, less so on a track but cool to see them take it out to show what a beast it is.
The GTD starts at$325. No rear trunk, as cooling occupies it. Weight is roughly 4,000 lbs. That's going to be tough at the track, when you get to do more than a few laps.
Wikipedia article is wrong, you can look at the Porsche factory lap they link to, on the nurburgring official YouTube channel, and you will see that the longer 20,800m lap is a 6:59, where for the same length thr GTD ran a 6:57.
Regular car transformed into Pikes Peak monstrosity is one of my favorite genres of race car. People forget the Suzuki Escudo wasn't exactly a performance beast either.
The Sapphire was the fastest which is very surprising and impressive. Even last year's time on different tires puts it with the McLaren Artura Spider. No matter how you slice it, it has supercar-level performance on the track and mind-scrambling acceleration everywhere. It's stupidly overpowered and over competent for a sedan, but what a machine.
The Taycan Turbo GT's time is really impressive considering it was at 777 horsepower for most of the race. Over 200 horsepower down, and 840 pounds up on the Revuelto, but only half a second slower. Some of that will be due to more aggressive tires on the Taycan, but it's still very impressive.
Everything you hear about the Revuelto suggests it's so much more capable than the Aventador. It's a track monster that's easier to drive and easier to live with.
The Bentley is 4.5 seconds slower than the W12 non-hybrid Speed. This is the car for which that matters least, but it's still surprising given how many other reviews I've read that says it drives better, has better weight distribution, and feels faster. It still wouldn't stop me from getting the new hybrid if I had $400K to spend on a car.
This really shows why I don’t give a shit about lap time. Of the affordable cars (sans Elantra N, since I haven’t personally driven one), my favorite to drive are in reverse finishing order: Miata, BRZ, and then the WRX a big ways behind the BRZ.
The DCT is even quicker and the Elantra N has this really dumb 'octane learn' you need to do to get full power that they likely didn't do. Not their fault, it's such an odd thing about the car, a simple tune takes care of it (and then some).
I bought a manual one recently, can't wait for spring to get here. They're seriously impressive cars, especially for the price that you can get at or below MSRP now.
Every fill up resets the octane learning and puts it at a default shit-tacular tune. Even if you put a half-gallon in. You can look up the owner's manual to get the specific directions but the easiest way is to drive at a constant 70-ish MPH for 10 minutes straight in top gear. Which is not possible for most people to do reliably and you get no indication from the car when octane has been learned and the full tune has been opened up.
So you either have to just assume that you've done it correctly and accept reduced performance when you don't. Have an amazing butt-dyno. Or run instrumented 0-60 runs before and after refueling, assuming you've verified that your previous tank was octane learned. And that's a lot of stupid nonsense for a daily driver and one of the reasons why I passed on an Elantra N.
It is pretty dumb. The only benefit is that the car makes the power it says on 87 and with no octane learning. Better gas and octane learn gets you around 17-20psi boost instead of the stock 16, so you just get an extra 20-30hp bump over the 270 advertised.
It's extremely stupid, most other modern cars can learn on the fly for octane using knock sensors and not need some special driving procedure to do it. There are tests showing the difference of 87 to 93 octane on Ecoboost mustangs on Dynos and it basically learns in a dyno pull or two.
I'm barely out of the break-in period, haven't even attempted it yet and probably won't bother, it doesn't really seem worth it unless you're going drag racing or your commute works out for it. You need to do some cruising at certain speeds that I'd have to drive pretty far out of my way to pull off.
I have a Kona N and quite frankly don’t notice a difference between learned or not unless I have the boost and torque displayed on the dash and can see it. You can get a spare ECU tune that disables it but then you run the risk of voiding warranty
The most annoying part of this is that the car doesn't let you know if it has learned or not. You follow the vague instructions for 10 minutes and then floor it hoping to see 19-20psi. If not, you do it again. There is no telltale sign as to whether the car is learning or has learned. Maddening. I stopped trying it after the first two fill ups.
Yes and even then it can be dodgy about remembering that it had been octane learned. With a manual transmission, it usually takes about 6-10 minutes of going from 60-75mph (~100-120kmh?) in 5th gear with about 50% throttle, from what I’ve done anyways.
Not that long ago I had some fun with a guy in an Elantra N, in Mexico of course, and I was shocked at how fast it was. On paper it should've been close, but I still thought it favored me. Stock for stock should've been mine, and I'm tuned (unknown mods on his end though). Yet twice he walked away from me.
Even out of the box these are a lot faster than their specs would suggest. They also haul ass pretty much throughout every gear, to the point where you hit redline in 6th gear on a manual one before you run out of steam on the engine side of things. Tuned ENs can be quite a thing to race against.
I’m interested in learning more about Elantra Ns. I have googled… but what is a reputable tuning company for them? I want to research their capabilities.
That’s probably mostly due to the transmission. Both Elantra Ns ran had manuals while the Kona N is DCT only. It’d be interesting to see the lap time of the EN with DCT to stack up to the KN
Really? The affordable car section seems quite large to me, but that 2nd tier is basically non existent. There's only 2 cars in the LL2 category and one of them is a jumped up (arguably very overpriced) WRX
it would be one thing if it was something like a US E36 M3 where it got everything from the performance model minus the engine
I could see it making slightly more sense if they gave it either the STI transmission or did something to make the transmission more durable, since right now that seems to be the big bottleneck with the VB
at the current price plus a few thousand in mods, you are in the ballpark of a supercharged Mustang GT with a warranty (after rebates)
I think you answered your own question: Honda wanted it to be seen as the best sport compact, even if you have to get the Cup 2s installed by the dealer rather than having them installed by the factory. It's still technically unmodified at that point, but I don't necessarily disagree that it's annoying that Honda sent Type Rs out with those tires.
Still, the Pilot Sport 4 S HNs do admirably on the Elantra N, and I suspect a real difference could be shown quite clearly if it was rocking Cup 2s like the Civic was. Not too shabby for a car that's not as bespoke and, frankly, pricey as the Type R.
I’m honestly shocked that the Sapphire was convincingly faster than the Revuelto given how long some of the straights are. Really thought this was a track best suited for ICE top end speed.
This track is very heavily suited for power and top end speed but other journalists have reported that the handling on the sapphire is mind bendingly magic. I imagine it’s enough to make up the difference especially considering the sapphire makes significantly more peak power anyway
It's great for comparing the newest cars versus past results. The V6 1LE Camaro is still the king of the LL1 price category, with a 3:04.0 lap time. I thought the Elantra N would finally beat it this year (given bad tires in previous year), but I guess not? Both cars were ran with 6 speed manuals. I'm sure the DCT Elantra would be quicker, but its nice to see the the V6 1LE Camaro still holding the record. I still maintain its one of the best performance cars against other competition in its price bracket. People just compare it to the V8 all day which is dumb. That's like reading an article on an M340i, and all the article mentions of how it gets stomped by the M3. Compare the damn care to others in its price bracket, not its more expensive big brother.
kinda weird the Camaro is in the LL1 category. The limit for LL1 in the 2024 Lightning lap was $39,999. The Camaro back in 2016 had an as tested price of $43k
Yeah C&D would have to say if their requirements changed.
Regarding the WRX, I think they are specifically looking at the tS trim. You can't get a WRX tS car for under 46K. Yeah you can get a base WRX for 35K but that's a pretty different car from tS and missing some key performance upgrades.
For the Camaro, you could still get a V6 1LE under their $34,999 threshold back in 2016. They even mentioned in the article that the base price was only $500 off from disqualifying it from LL1 class.
The the Focus RS it's base price was $38,765 so it was in LL2 regardless of the as tested price.
Elantra N is a performance bargain, but staring at FL5, GRC, ITS, and Golf R taillights on this track. Unsurprisingly, I’d take every one of those cars over the EN.
I think it was 2024 DCT was slower than a 2022 Manual. They said it was probably conditions of the day but couldn’t clearly pin point it. The 2022 lap time was from their big manual car showdown.
100%. Most Elantra N owners generally know their car is an underdog more than it is a true performance winner like the Civic Type R is - a 7900 XTX against an RTX 5080 or 4090, if you wanna think of it that way. But it gets closer to the more expensive cars of the sport compact segment than you’d expect it to, both for the money and for what the Elantra N ultimately is. I’m always surprised at how well it does for itself given that the base chassis is ultimately shared with the Elantra N Line.
If I had the money to sling around for a Type R, a Golf R or an Integra Type S… honestly I’d probably rather buy a 6MT Mustang GT, but there’s honestly no losing in the sport compact segment today. A surprising amount of options for many differing customers.
Yeah the price really reflects the performance here, but the fact that you can effectively get a Walmart brand Type R in the elantra is great for enthusiasts on a budget
How is that relevant? I never claimed I could do a better job. Not every critique is "hating." People have warped perceptions of debate these days. Anything that goes against the accepted wisdom is suddenly hate.
I specifically pointed out that a pro should do the testing as it's advertised and promoted as such not a fun exercise. Jesus. You have to talk to these people like they are toddlers.
Now that they killed off the base trim WRX, the premium trim is now the starting point, it makes the base Trim 2025 WRX around the same price as a 2025 BRZ tS...
And $47k for a WRX tS is stupid, that's into luxury car territory...
It’s certainly quite deep into Lexus and Acura territory. Hell, it’s closer to the Integra Type S in price than it is to a base GR Corolla or a Golf GTI.
I think it makes sense still at the base price of 35k, but paying an additional $12,000 to get the TS pushes you too far into the territory of better cars.
Juicyjackson@reddit
Laptime / Price as tested:
Miata - 3:15.6 / $39,065
BRZ tS - 3:11.1 / $36,465
WRX tS - 3:10.4 / $47,270
Elantra N - 3:06.4 / $35,320
Continental GT Speed - 3:00.7 / $391,175
Ioniq 5N - 3:00.3 / $67,575
AMG GT63 - 2:50.3 / $209,450
CT5-V Blackwing - 2:47.9 / $145,580
Artura Spider - 2:44.0 / $388,793
Taycan Turbo GT - 2:41.8 / $245,660
Revuelto - 2:41.3 / $729,458
Cayman GT4 RS Manthey Racing - 2:40.9 / $265,600
Air Sapphire - 2:40.2 / $253,400
F-150 Lightning SuperTruck - 2:19.1 / N/A
10000Didgeridoos@reddit
I don't understand why anyone would spend $47k on a WRX ts with other options in that price range or much less including the Elantra N, Golf R, Corolla GR, etc. That is absolutely insane money for what is essentially a last gen WRX STi amount of money with 30 less HP and without the advanced setup of limited slip differentials at front, rear, and center w/ driver adjustable torque distribution.
maverickar15@reddit
2015 STI posted 3:10.5 in 2014 so essentially just as fast as a 10-year old STI's performance... If it was my money no chance spending that kind of money on the tS when you can get buy a CTR or pay a bit more for ITS ... and this is coming from a 2006 STi owner.
BMWtrunkseal@reddit
2015 is 10 years ago, damn
Uptons_BJs@reddit
Hmm, AMG GT63 a bit disappointing for anyone else? Surely a forced induction v8 sports car should be able to beat a similarly priced midsized sedan in the Blackwing?
throwawayrepost02468@reddit
Because it's not a sports car anymore.
RodRAEG@reddit
I find it hugely disappointing compared to the previous gen AMG GT. Previous gen was an excellent 2-seater FE RWD platform that was probably the best in the biz at the time, (sorry C7 Corvette).
Now it's been replaced by a 4-seater AWD coupe that shares a platform with the MB SL and shares the similar squished proportions of the SL. Looking at the side profiles of the old car and the new one is disheartening.
WUT_productions@reddit
It weighs as much as a pickup truck, for a 2 door coupe.
caterham09@reddit (OP)
I don't think it's surprising. Mercedes really leaned into the "GT" aspect of that car this go around. It's actually 200lbs heavier than the Cadillac is if you can believe it.
Particular_Flower111@reddit
I just don’t understand where they find all the extra mass. It is cooling-related?
strongmanass@reddit
It's more luxury-oriented than it used to be. It's a different car with the same name. The new one is larger in every dimension, has gained two seats, and has more amenities than the car it replaced.
2+2 coupés that mix luxury and sport are heavy. Most are over 4000 pounds. At the heaviest end you have Bentley and Rolls Royce which were over 5000 pounds even before electrification. The new car is
caterham09@reddit (OP)
It's the addition of the hybrid electric motors and batteries. The previous AMG Gt was closer to 3600lbs but the new one is over 4300
strongmanass@reddit
The GT they had was the non-hybrid. The hybrid isn't out yet. 4000+ pounds is just what grand tourers weigh. The M8, LC500, DB12, and GranTurismo are all at our over 4000 pounds. Only the Ferrari Roma is significantly lighter.
Particular_Flower111@reddit
Batteries and motors weighing over 700 lbs is a little absurd. Especially when the hybrid assistance is to aid in performance rather than efficiency.
caterham09@reddit (OP)
The G90 M5 is 1000lbs heavier than the F90 after moving to a plug in hybrid version 🤷♂️
Particular_Flower111@reddit
Yeah I mean this all screams of manufacturers trying their best to build what customers want while also meeting regulations. Maybe in the modern era the only way to get a European ttv8 is to add in half a ton of hybrid systems.
AwesomeBantha@reddit
I wonder if any of the German manufacturers will start offering “hybrid delete” models in non-European markets
Particular_Flower111@reddit
That might be a big ask, but at least for the exhaust sounds being neutered on modern cars, I could easily see OEMs offering dealer-installed set ups for different markets. They could charge a few grand, offer a warranty, and watch the money flood in.
All they really need to do is offer a disclaimer “for off road use only”
jobear6969@reddit
The GT4 RS MR is seriously impressive. I know it's basically a full racecar but being faster than the Revuelto with double the horsepower is pretty mind boggling.
ClearAccess3826@reddit
As others have stated save $60K and purchase the standard GT4 RS. It's faster around VIR.
DanielG165@reddit
To be fair to the Revuelto, it’s a big V12 Lambo without much in the way of downforce, while the GT4 RS MR is set up specifically for track duty. While the Revuelto is a much better drivers car than the Aventador in every way, it’s still only the, “base” version, crazy as that shit sounds. The track-focused SV will be the one that really slices and dices a circuit.
GimmeChickenBlasters@reddit
It's a top end Manthey bulld and weighs 1000 lbs less than the Revuelto. No surprises there.
DanielG165@reddit
I know the ZR1 has MASSIVE turbos, but it’s still crazy how the ZTK high downforce car that GM used for their lap records trapped a considerably higher trap speed than the more slippery Revuelto on the straights at VIR. 179mph at VIR Full for the Corvette vs 168mph for the Lamborghini, and a full fat 180mph at VIR Grand. The ZR1 is fucking insane.
This is only the start for the Revuelto, though, which is just nuts to think about.
ClearAccess3826@reddit
I received approval to add the C8 ZR1 to our small stable. Even though this car has exceptional speed Samurai in this forum commented the following. "At DaNascar Camaro on Lightning Lap last year was like 12 seconds faster at VIR than the new C8 ZR1 street record that beat the Senna".
dsquared45@reddit
One of the comments on C&D’s site reads “Who cares about some one-off F-150 Lightning Super Truck. Track street legal cars that people actually buy.”
I am growing very tired of this degree of cynicism in every corner of discussion on the internet, this subreddit included. I get the sentiment of that commenter, except that ALL OF THE OTHER cars in the test are street legal cars people can buy and take to the track. Plus, it’s just fun! Seeing these insane racecars run at Lightning Lap as benchmarks and displays of racing technology is just interesting! It takes nothing away from the rest of the Lightning Lap assessment of the otherwise “normal” cars and only adds to the excitement of the article. They aren’t out here running only racecars for an article.
samurai1226@reddit
People can't comprehend how fast race cars are, i think its a great addition to have one race contender for fhn. Saw recently a post from Daytona 500 how a C8 Stingray could be a pace car, since they claimed it would be faster than the Nascars. Meanwhile the Nascar Camaro on Lightning Lap last year was like 12 seconds faster at VIR than the new C8 ZR1 street record that beat the Senna 🤣
ClearAccess3826@reddit
That is insane speed. I need to sharpen my track skill set. Can't imagine 12 seconds faster at VIR.
UltimaRS800@reddit
Ah yes the very bought by people McLaren Artura. Very common, very peopley.
dsquared45@reddit
The first car on the list is literally a Miata.
UltimaRS800@reddit
I did not mean it that way. I meant that Artura ia jast as unreachable for 99% of people as the pikes peak car so why not test either both or none.
dsquared45@reddit
Fair enough! I interpreted your comment wrong; my bad!
Juicyjackson@reddit
They always throw a oddball lap time in the mix, it's fun.
Last year it was one of their editors running the track, the year before it was a WRX STI Airslayer...
dsquared45@reddit
They had the Garage 56 Camaro ZL1 that ran Le Mans last year, too, which was awesome!
lostboyz@reddit
As listed times:
Miata - 3:15.6
BRZ tS - 3:11.1
WRX tS - 3:10.4
Elantra N - 3:06.4
Continental GT Speed - 3:00.7
Ioniq 5N - 3:00.3
AMG GT63 - 2:50.3
CT5-V ^Blackwing - 2:47.9
Artura Spider - 2:44.0
Taycan Turbo GT - 2:41.8
Revuelto - 2:41.3
Cayman GT4 RS Manthey Racing - 2:40.9
Air Sapphire - 2:40.2
F-150 Lightning SuperTruck - 2:19.1
AwesomeBantha@reddit
I would have thought that the GT4 RS MR would come out on top for sure, super impressive on the part of the Air
sidenote, is the MR package an actual option you can spec at the dealer? I was under the impression that you needed to make arrangements to send them your vehicle after it rolled off the production line
RevvCats@reddit
I just noticed the time for the GT4 RS MR is slightly slower than the GT4 RS they ran two years ago. Sure it’s not the same day with the same weather and it’s hard to compare times and they said the laps the driver got a few years ago were a bit cleaner, but for 60k dollars installed you’d expect the upgrade to do a bit more than basically be about the same as the base car.
ClearAccess3826@reddit
I agree. Save the $60K.
ClearAccess3826@reddit
That was probably the case a few years ago. According to historical records the GT4 RS (non MR) was faster at the Lightning Lap.
cpxchewy@reddit
It’s a dealer installed product now that MR is owned by Porsche.
randeus@reddit
I thought the Ioniq 5N would be faster.
aaayyyuuussshhh@reddit
Huh!?! It's faster than an X4M Comp, GLC 63 S, and the Stelvio Quadrifoligio.
You gotta remember it wasn't built to set the best times. It's just suppose to be a really good car to drive which is fun but also resilient on track. It's tuning it's like a Porsche, for example. Still has a slightly edge-y feel where the car will oversteering pretty easily if you want it too. Also not to mention it's running slightly eco focused tires for low rolling resistance. Idk why they bothered with that though tbh
randeus@reddit
Sure, but considering its power and how much hype it has, I figured it would at least be sitting in the mid to high 2:50s.
aaayyyuuussshhh@reddit
Well in the article they mentioned never using the boost button so at most they were pushing 600hp. But even that I doubt 600 because Hyundai limits power in track or whatever mode to keep it's thermals in check.
Cayenne Turbo GT Coupe did like 7-8 seconds faster while making a decent bit more HP, weighing 100lbs more, and some insanely wide/grippy tires. I'm sure the Ioniq 5 could do like mid 2:50s with better tires and full power
randeus@reddit
They said the boost button would have cut a few tenths.
aaayyyuuussshhh@reddit
Definitely. 2021 Audi A4 45 Quattro had better lateral grip around a 300ft skidpad versus the Ioniq 5N in caranddrivers instrumented test. Better tires would help but I also wonder how much worse it's range would get... 😳
Upset_Exit_7851@reddit
Tires
WUT_productions@reddit
The 5N and Sapphire aren't on the same plane at all.
coffeebribesaccepted@reddit
I'd like to see the GTI and R on there. I've currently got an R but looking for something a bit cheaper for my next car
FreshPots87@reddit
What the shit? How is that F-150 Lightning more than 20 seconds faster than a GT4 RS or Air Sapphire???
FreshPots87@reddit
Oh....2200-hp....that'll do it
mgobla@reddit
It's not bc of the power, but bc of the down force, it's a race car, not street legal
RevvCats@reddit
And burns through most of its battery in a single lap. Makes sense for pikes peak, less so on a track but cool to see them take it out to show what a beast it is.
TheRealCVDY@reddit
yea it’s not a regular F150 lol
strongmanass@reddit
It's a race car test bed. It has 2200 horsepower, produces 6000 pounds of downorce at 150 mph, and looks like this
IAmTaka_VG@reddit
So they can create that but can’t create a mustang to even get close to a GT3?
randeus@reddit
I’d bet money the GTD is going to have a monstrous time on this track compared to what it did on the ring and outpace the GT3.
orthopod@reddit
Wiki article has the 2020 992 GT3 at 6:55
2024 mustang GTD. At 6:57
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_N%C3%BCrburgring_Nordschleife_lap_times
The GTD starts at$325. No rear trunk, as cooling occupies it. Weight is roughly 4,000 lbs. That's going to be tough at the track, when you get to do more than a few laps.
LordofSpheres@reddit
Wikipedia article is wrong, you can look at the Porsche factory lap they link to, on the nurburgring official YouTube channel, and you will see that the longer 20,800m lap is a 6:59, where for the same length thr GTD ran a 6:57.
randeus@reddit
Porsche always wins in the ring. But that same car barely beat the Z06 on the lightning lap.
D4ng3rd4n@reddit
Did you miss the part that it's all electric, 2200hp, and burns the entire battery in 1 lap? So it's not really a car, it's a pikes peak monster.
Upset_Exit_7851@reddit
Even that is a slight understatement. Haha It’s a monster for sure
FreshPots87@reddit
Yea I had to google it after seeing the times. The thing is a beast.
LeifEriksonASDF@reddit
Regular car transformed into Pikes Peak monstrosity is one of my favorite genres of race car. People forget the Suzuki Escudo wasn't exactly a performance beast either.
start3ch@reddit
Yea this is NOT the production lighting. I wonder how much it even has in common
strongmanass@reddit
(Excluding the Lightning from everything)
The Sapphire was the fastest which is very surprising and impressive. Even last year's time on different tires puts it with the McLaren Artura Spider. No matter how you slice it, it has supercar-level performance on the track and mind-scrambling acceleration everywhere. It's stupidly overpowered and over competent for a sedan, but what a machine.
The Taycan Turbo GT's time is really impressive considering it was at 777 horsepower for most of the race. Over 200 horsepower down, and 840 pounds up on the Revuelto, but only half a second slower. Some of that will be due to more aggressive tires on the Taycan, but it's still very impressive.
Everything you hear about the Revuelto suggests it's so much more capable than the Aventador. It's a track monster that's easier to drive and easier to live with.
The Bentley is 4.5 seconds slower than the W12 non-hybrid Speed. This is the car for which that matters least, but it's still surprising given how many other reviews I've read that says it drives better, has better weight distribution, and feels faster. It still wouldn't stop me from getting the new hybrid if I had $400K to spend on a car.
aaayyyuuussshhh@reddit
The last one is all about weight and tires. It has an extra 400lbs and they put more eco focused tires for low rolling resistance. Go figure...
221missile@reddit
called it
n0t_4_thr0w4w4y@reddit
This really shows why I don’t give a shit about lap time. Of the affordable cars (sans Elantra N, since I haven’t personally driven one), my favorite to drive are in reverse finishing order: Miata, BRZ, and then the WRX a big ways behind the BRZ.
RazingsIsNotHomeNow@reddit
Very impressive the CT5 beats the AMG GT.
Lologoldennight@reddit
My all data feed back
Lologoldennight@reddit
How fast
SVTraptor99@reddit
Would have liked to see a m4 comp or csl time to compare against
caterham09@reddit (OP)
They did the M4 CSL in 2023 and an M3 comp in 2022.
They ran a 2:47.5 and a 2:53.5 respectively
SVTraptor99@reddit
Wow the blackwing is quicker than I thought, pretty impressive I assumed the CSL would be a few seconds quicker but they are so heavy
terroristteddy@reddit
Wow, can't believe the Elantra N is 4 seconds a lap faster than the WRX TS.
That being said, the affordable car selection this year is certainly light...
red_fuel@reddit
What about the Cadillac? Beat the Mercedes and not much slower than a friggin McLaren!
lostboyz@reddit
The DCT is even quicker and the Elantra N has this really dumb 'octane learn' you need to do to get full power that they likely didn't do. Not their fault, it's such an odd thing about the car, a simple tune takes care of it (and then some).
I bought a manual one recently, can't wait for spring to get here. They're seriously impressive cars, especially for the price that you can get at or below MSRP now.
trackdaybruh@reddit
I heard about the octane learn it has. Do you have to do it every fill up and how long does it take?
perkele_possum@reddit
Every fill up resets the octane learning and puts it at a default shit-tacular tune. Even if you put a half-gallon in. You can look up the owner's manual to get the specific directions but the easiest way is to drive at a constant 70-ish MPH for 10 minutes straight in top gear. Which is not possible for most people to do reliably and you get no indication from the car when octane has been learned and the full tune has been opened up.
So you either have to just assume that you've done it correctly and accept reduced performance when you don't. Have an amazing butt-dyno. Or run instrumented 0-60 runs before and after refueling, assuming you've verified that your previous tank was octane learned. And that's a lot of stupid nonsense for a daily driver and one of the reasons why I passed on an Elantra N.
BxYankees@reddit
You don’t have to assume, just look at your psi. 15psi max is without octane learned.
randeus@reddit
How is this a thing in a car like the Elantra N?
Funny_Frame1140@reddit
Lots of cars have stupid electrical systems the gimp it.
csgonoob0@reddit
It is pretty dumb. The only benefit is that the car makes the power it says on 87 and with no octane learning. Better gas and octane learn gets you around 17-20psi boost instead of the stock 16, so you just get an extra 20-30hp bump over the 270 advertised.
BigCountry76@reddit
It's extremely stupid, most other modern cars can learn on the fly for octane using knock sensors and not need some special driving procedure to do it. There are tests showing the difference of 87 to 93 octane on Ecoboost mustangs on Dynos and it basically learns in a dyno pull or two.
lostboyz@reddit
I'm barely out of the break-in period, haven't even attempted it yet and probably won't bother, it doesn't really seem worth it unless you're going drag racing or your commute works out for it. You need to do some cruising at certain speeds that I'd have to drive pretty far out of my way to pull off.
_Polstergeist@reddit
I have a Kona N and quite frankly don’t notice a difference between learned or not unless I have the boost and torque displayed on the dash and can see it. You can get a spare ECU tune that disables it but then you run the risk of voiding warranty
orhantemerrut@reddit
The most annoying part of this is that the car doesn't let you know if it has learned or not. You follow the vague instructions for 10 minutes and then floor it hoping to see 19-20psi. If not, you do it again. There is no telltale sign as to whether the car is learning or has learned. Maddening. I stopped trying it after the first two fill ups.
handymanshandle@reddit
Yes and even then it can be dodgy about remembering that it had been octane learned. With a manual transmission, it usually takes about 6-10 minutes of going from 60-75mph (~100-120kmh?) in 5th gear with about 50% throttle, from what I’ve done anyways.
Funny_Frame1140@reddit
Why are you waiting for the spring lol?
lostboyz@reddit
Because it comes on summer tires and it hasn't been above freezing for a while now. My Abarth is on snow tires and is plenty of fun until then
Nhojj_Whyte@reddit
Not that long ago I had some fun with a guy in an Elantra N, in Mexico of course, and I was shocked at how fast it was. On paper it should've been close, but I still thought it favored me. Stock for stock should've been mine, and I'm tuned (unknown mods on his end though). Yet twice he walked away from me.
handymanshandle@reddit
Even out of the box these are a lot faster than their specs would suggest. They also haul ass pretty much throughout every gear, to the point where you hit redline in 6th gear on a manual one before you run out of steam on the engine side of things. Tuned ENs can be quite a thing to race against.
TireShineWet@reddit
I’m interested in learning more about Elantra Ns. I have googled… but what is a reputable tuning company for them? I want to research their capabilities.
H20POWERHOUSE@reddit
N75 and jv performance are two big tuners for them. I am going through the tuning process rn with my car and it's become a absolute rocket.
Astramael@reddit
Having driven both, I can completely believe it.
The Elantra N is spicy and sharp and fun and very good.
The WRX, even in tS trim, is lazy and isolated and dull.
Phazushift@reddit
Its because the WRX is currently a piece of shit.
terroristteddy@reddit
You chose the GRC! How would you say the GR compares to the Elantra N in your personal opinion?
withsexyresults@reddit
Surprising the Kona N was faster than the latest Elantra by 0.3sec. Small hot cuvs sounds like a fun compromise if you need a cuv
dsquared45@reddit
That’s probably mostly due to the transmission. Both Elantra Ns ran had manuals while the Kona N is DCT only. It’d be interesting to see the lap time of the EN with DCT to stack up to the KN
tharussianphil@reddit
Look at it another way. The engagement of a manual Elantra N only costs .3 seconds a lap. Well worth the sacrifice haha.
YBS_H2O@reddit
In reality the DCT is worth more than 3/10ths. The Kona's Pirellis aren't as good as the Elantra's Michelins. Same tires would stretch the gap some.
dsquared45@reddit
No argument here! If I were to buy an Elantra N, I would only consider the manual. But it does account for the lap time differential.
DM725@reddit
The VB WRX has been slower than the rivals regardless of trim because they won't increase the power. It even lost to a BRZ in Edmunds U-Drags.
caterham09@reddit (OP)
Really? The affordable car section seems quite large to me, but that 2nd tier is basically non existent. There's only 2 cars in the LL2 category and one of them is a jumped up (arguably very overpriced) WRX
Juicyjackson@reddit
I dont even think it's arguably haha, $47,270 for a WRX is stupid.
That's more expensive than a 2021 STI adjusted for inflation...
AwesomeBantha@reddit
it would be one thing if it was something like a US E36 M3 where it got everything from the performance model minus the engine
I could see it making slightly more sense if they gave it either the STI transmission or did something to make the transmission more durable, since right now that seems to be the big bottleneck with the VB
at the current price plus a few thousand in mods, you are in the ballpark of a supercharged Mustang GT with a warranty (after rebates)
tofulo@reddit
Wrx so dookie
jeff3861791@reddit
Seriously, why would Honda send a Cup2 Type R when the stock tire is PS4S and Cup2 is nowhere to be found in the build page/spec sheet.
I get it is a so-called "Dealer option" but this just makes the test result not as comparable.
handymanshandle@reddit
I think you answered your own question: Honda wanted it to be seen as the best sport compact, even if you have to get the Cup 2s installed by the dealer rather than having them installed by the factory. It's still technically unmodified at that point, but I don't necessarily disagree that it's annoying that Honda sent Type Rs out with those tires.
Still, the Pilot Sport 4 S HNs do admirably on the Elantra N, and I suspect a real difference could be shown quite clearly if it was rocking Cup 2s like the Civic was. Not too shabby for a car that's not as bespoke and, frankly, pricey as the Type R.
Hot-Squash-4143@reddit
True. They did test the Integra Type S with the PS4S and ran a 3:04.2.
MAUSECOP@reddit
Biggest surprise is the AMG GT63 being slower than the Blackwing
WUT_productions@reddit
Its 4707 lbs weight might have something to do with it. That's more than many pickup trucks.
MAUSECOP@reddit
Insanely heavy, guess it’s true they are positioning it more as a GT car than a sports car like the last generation
7Sans@reddit
so for us poor people, Elentra N or Ioniq 5 N
enfuego138@reddit
I’m honestly shocked that the Sapphire was convincingly faster than the Revuelto given how long some of the straights are. Really thought this was a track best suited for ICE top end speed.
darkmoon72664@reddit
It's worth note that the Sapphire doesn't really taper off. It pulls on the Revuelto harder at the top than it does at the bottom.
The Revuelto is only 0.5s behind in the quarter. By the half, it's 1.3s behind and still going 7mph slower.
The Revuelto was also significantly slower on the straight than a 7 year old McLaren on similar tires with 300 fewer horsepower.
jbeck24@reddit
Race compound tires vs sport tires. Revuelto would probably gain 3 or 4 seconds on the Sapphire's tires
Excessively_Bothered@reddit
This track is very heavily suited for power and top end speed but other journalists have reported that the handling on the sapphire is mind bendingly magic. I imagine it’s enough to make up the difference especially considering the sapphire makes significantly more peak power anyway
Malbjey@reddit
The LL historical data has also been updated to include the 2025 testing results:
https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a23319884/lightning-lap-times-historical-data/
It's great for comparing the newest cars versus past results. The V6 1LE Camaro is still the king of the LL1 price category, with a 3:04.0 lap time. I thought the Elantra N would finally beat it this year (given bad tires in previous year), but I guess not? Both cars were ran with 6 speed manuals. I'm sure the DCT Elantra would be quicker, but its nice to see the the V6 1LE Camaro still holding the record. I still maintain its one of the best performance cars against other competition in its price bracket. People just compare it to the V8 all day which is dumb. That's like reading an article on an M340i, and all the article mentions of how it gets stomped by the M3. Compare the damn care to others in its price bracket, not its more expensive big brother.
hurricanePopsicles@reddit
kinda weird the Camaro is in the LL1 category. The limit for LL1 in the 2024 Lightning lap was $39,999. The Camaro back in 2016 had an as tested price of $43k
Malbjey@reddit
I think they went by the base price, which was $34,495.
https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a15099586/chevrolet-camaro-1le-at-lightning-lap-2016-feature/
The V6 Camaro came in three different trim levels: 1LT, 2LT, and 3LT. With each trim costing progressively more.
However you could get the 1LE package on any of those three trims. So if you wanted the absolute cheapest 1LE, them you'd get the base model 1LT trim.
That as tested 43K price is like from taking a 3LT (i.e. all the comfort bells and whistles) and then adding a 1LE on top.
This article gives some detail on the potential pricing back then:
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a15098474/2017-chevrolet-camaro-v-6-1le-first-drive-review/
hurricanePopsicles@reddit
They must have changed it. The WRX this year is $35k base but $47k as tested and ti was in LL2
Malbjey@reddit
Yeah C&D would have to say if their requirements changed.
Regarding the WRX, I think they are specifically looking at the tS trim. You can't get a WRX tS car for under 46K. Yeah you can get a base WRX for 35K but that's a pretty different car from tS and missing some key performance upgrades.
For the Camaro, you could still get a V6 1LE under their $34,999 threshold back in 2016. They even mentioned in the article that the base price was only $500 off from disqualifying it from LL1 class.
The the Focus RS it's base price was $38,765 so it was in LL2 regardless of the as tested price.
Noize4B11@reddit
Elantra N is a performance bargain, but staring at FL5, GRC, ITS, and Golf R taillights on this track. Unsurprisingly, I’d take every one of those cars over the EN.
randeus@reddit
I’m curious how much time it would gain with the DCT.
EICONTRACT@reddit
Savage geese did a good comparison DCT vs type r
randeus@reddit
The DCT was slower than the manual? Or do you mean it was slower than the Type R?
EICONTRACT@reddit
I think it was 2024 DCT was slower than a 2022 Manual. They said it was probably conditions of the day but couldn’t clearly pin point it. The 2022 lap time was from their big manual car showdown.
handymanshandle@reddit
100%. Most Elantra N owners generally know their car is an underdog more than it is a true performance winner like the Civic Type R is - a 7900 XTX against an RTX 5080 or 4090, if you wanna think of it that way. But it gets closer to the more expensive cars of the sport compact segment than you’d expect it to, both for the money and for what the Elantra N ultimately is. I’m always surprised at how well it does for itself given that the base chassis is ultimately shared with the Elantra N Line.
If I had the money to sling around for a Type R, a Golf R or an Integra Type S… honestly I’d probably rather buy a 6MT Mustang GT, but there’s honestly no losing in the sport compact segment today. A surprising amount of options for many differing customers.
DM725@reddit
Unexpected r/pcmasterrace
handymanshandle@reddit
My vanity plate isn’t just for show! Seriously, if anyone ever needed to know about me, my plate could tell about half of my personality.
EICONTRACT@reddit
It’s surprisingly equal or only a minor difference on other tracks
hurricanePopsicles@reddit
$12k is equal to quite a few track days and sets of tires though
caterham09@reddit (OP)
Yeah the price really reflects the performance here, but the fact that you can effectively get a Walmart brand Type R in the elantra is great for enthusiasts on a budget
Noize4B11@reddit
Unquestionably, friend! It blows the cars in its price range away with little effort.
EICONTRACT@reddit
Elantra N guys are going to RIP that lap apart when they release the vid. The lower top speed is a bit suspect.
orhantemerrut@reddit
Why don't they hire a legitimate racing driver and have him set those laps this way instead of relying on dad bud dads? I don't get it.
Maximilianne@reddit
the average customer for these cars are dad bud dads, so you gotta sell the fantasy
lonelysoldier1@reddit
Whats funny is these are more "Pro" drivers than that guy ever will be. Idk why people hate so much and just enjoy.
orhantemerrut@reddit
How is that relevant? I never claimed I could do a better job. Not every critique is "hating." People have warped perceptions of debate these days. Anything that goes against the accepted wisdom is suddenly hate.
I specifically pointed out that a pro should do the testing as it's advertised and promoted as such not a fun exercise. Jesus. You have to talk to these people like they are toddlers.
verdegrrl@reddit
AMA is here
Bicycle_Dude_555@reddit
No Corvette ZR-1?
hurricanePopsicles@reddit
The testing for this happened way before the ZR1 had come out. I’m sure they will have one next year
Juicyjackson@reddit
The WRX Pricing has just gone off the rails...
Now that they killed off the base trim WRX, the premium trim is now the starting point, it makes the base Trim 2025 WRX around the same price as a 2025 BRZ tS...
And $47k for a WRX tS is stupid, that's into luxury car territory...
Main_Hornet8676@reddit
The pricing is dumb, but you can easily get one under MSRP if you ask nicely.
And the high trims depreciate like a rock, I saw a clean title TR with 7000 miles on the clock go for 35k, was almost tempted to buy it myself.
Shmokesshweed@reddit
47k is around the average new car cost. Not sure I'd call it luxury territory.
handymanshandle@reddit
It’s certainly quite deep into Lexus and Acura territory. Hell, it’s closer to the Integra Type S in price than it is to a base GR Corolla or a Golf GTI.
Juicyjackson@reddit
The 2025 330i starts at $47k.
The 2025 A4 starts at $45k.
Even the C300 is at $49k.
Shmokesshweed@reddit
Hmm...cheaper than I thought. Thanks
caterham09@reddit (OP)
I think it makes sense still at the base price of 35k, but paying an additional $12,000 to get the TS pushes you too far into the territory of better cars.
koopa00@reddit
The Lucid Air Sapphire is just insane.