A student from North Macedonia passionately criticizes the EU, accusing it of injustice and double standards in the conditions for starting accession negotiations. Do you feel empathy for him?

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rintzscar@reddit

North Macedonia's idea of international relations is that the entire world should warp their understanding of history, culture, language, politics and society to fit their worldview. This is the same thing that the USA, China, Russia are doing.

Except they're not the USA, China or Russia. They're North Macedonia.

This will never happen.

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Golemiot_mufluz@reddit

So why is bulgaria position on our history relevant to our accession?

Does recognition of history a thing in national policy.

Btw recognition of language is very much oart of international politics. It is part of echr and minority right within eu

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RegionSignificant977@reddit

We have bilateral contracts that are signed and they are in both country languages, which is de facto recognition. If the thing you say about Bulgaria not recognizing your language Bulgaria has to deny signing anything written in your language.

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Golemiot_mufluz@reddit

Your parliament and your academy of sciences both issued declaration denying the macedonian language. They declared that macedonian language is just and alternative codification of bulgarian language. And all agriements with you for that purpose state the " macedonian language in accordance to the constitution"

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Respecting sovereignty while demanding historical, linguistic, and national concessions isn’t respect—it’s coercion. Bulgaria 'recognized' Macedonia’s sovereignty while simultaneously trying to redefine its identity. That’s not recognition; it’s conditional acceptance based on submission. If there are no territorial claims, why the constant demands?

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CondensedHappiness@reddit

So let me get this straight, you get to pick and choose history from your neighbours, make bogus claims without a gram of evidence to back them up and when your neighbours call you out on it, its coercsion ?

No, you simply cant steal and expect respect in return

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Educate-Me-Now@reddit

So let me get this straight—you claim history can’t be ‘stolen,’ yet Bulgaria demands Macedonia change its identity to fit Bulgarian narratives? You talk about ‘bogus claims,’ but Bulgaria bribes Macedonians in Albania to register as Bulgarians while refusing to recognize Macedonians in Bulgaria. If anyone is fabricating history, it’s the ones rewriting identities for political leverage.

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CondensedHappiness@reddit

So let me get this straight—you claim history can’t be ‘stolen,’ yet Bulgaria demands Macedonia change its identity to fit Bulgarian narratives?

No one can change your identity, stop being ridiculous.

You talk about ‘bogus claims,’ but Bulgaria bribes Macedonians in Albania to register as Bulgarians while refusing to recognize Macedonians in Bulgaria. If anyone is fabricating history, it’s the ones rewriting identities for political leverage.

There were Bulgarians in Albania way before any ethnic North Macedonian existed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albania_under_the_Bulgarian_Empire#:\~:text=The%20territory%20of%20modern%20Albania,by%20the%20Bulgarians%20for%20centuries.

Most of Albania was under Bulgarian rule for around 200 years. Ever figured, that maybe thats why there are Bulgarians there?When was the last time North Macedonia ruled over Albania?

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Educate-Me-Now@reddit

So now medieval empires determine modern ethnic identity? By your logic, since the Ottomans ruled Bulgaria for 500 years, does that make modern Bulgarians Turkish? Empires ruled over multiple peoples—it doesn’t mean those people disappeared.

Also, there were Macedonians in Albania long before Bulgaria even existed as a state. Just because your government bribes people to register as Bulgarians doesn’t rewrite history. Try harder.

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CondensedHappiness@reddit

So now medieval empires determine modern ethnic identity?

Of course they do. What do you think that King of Poland meant? Or King of Portugal meant? Why is this so difficult of a concept for your nation, it really blows my mind.

Ottomans ruled Bulgaria for 500 years, does that make modern Bulgarians Turkish? Empires ruled over multiple peoples—it doesn’t mean those people disappeared.

It clearly did not make us Turkish. But we also do not claim that Bayezid was Bulgarian. I dont get your point.

Also, there were Macedonians in Albania long before Bulgaria even existed as a state. Just because your government bribes people to register as Bulgarians doesn’t rewrite history. Try harder.

And at last we come to this. This is exactly why your country is the black sheep in the balkans, which is already kinda the black sheep of Europe. Do you have ANY evidence for this claim???

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Educate-Me-Now@reddit

So now medieval royal titles define modern ethnic identity? That’s an absurd oversimplification. The ‘King of Poland’ ruled over Poles, Lithuanians, Ukrainians, and others—just like Samuil ruled over Macedonians, Bulgarians, Vlachs, and more. The existence of a political entity doesn’t erase the diverse identities of its people.

And you literally just proved my point—Ottoman rule didn’t make Bulgarians Turkish, just like Bulgars (you know, your Turkic ancestors) rule didn’t make all their subjects Bulgarian. Thanks for playing.

As for Macedonia being the ‘black sheep’ of the Balkans, that’s rich coming from a country that vetoes neighbors’ EU paths, rewrites history, and bribes people in Albania to inflate their minority numbers. If anyone’s isolated in the region, it’s the one that keeps trying to dictate another country’s identity.

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CondensedHappiness@reddit

The ‘King of Poland’ ruled over Poles, Lithuanians, Ukrainians, and others—just like Samuil ruled over Macedonians, Bulgarians, Vlachs, and more.

Please let us see a single medieval Macedonian. Just one.

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Educate-Me-Now@reddit

Medieval history didn’t work like modern nationalism. Macedonians weren’t ‘documented’ as a separate nation because no one in the Balkans was—people were ruled by empires, not national states. But the region, the people, and their Slavic identity persisted, and in the 19th century, Macedonians reclaimed their national identity, just like every other Balkan nation did. If history were as simple as ‘find me a medieval document,’ none of these modern nations would exist today.

Turned out that a lot of peasants had more admiration towards their sacred Biblical land that fed them than the Empire that sent their children to war.

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CondensedHappiness@reddit

So there were no medieval English, no medieval French, Serbs or Hungarians etc. etc.

Got it, that makes perfect sense.

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Educate-Me-Now@reddit

There were. Medieval Hellenes, however, were none. I don't see you bitching to Greece about it.

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ConcentrateVast2356@reddit

Why can't Bulgaria teach their understanding of history and Macedonia teach theirs. Not like the current EU members don't have radically diverging interpretations of all sorts of similar issues already.

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rintzscar@reddit

History is not part of the French proposal which lifted the veto and which they signed. No conditions regarding history exist in it.

The fact that you believe this lie is exactly what their strategy is. Just lie non-stop about everything and people will start to believe them.

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ConcentrateVast2356@reddit

You brought up history...

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rintzscar@reddit

I didn't bring it up in the context of EU accession.

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AnteChrist76@reddit

This is such projection coming from Bulgarian considering the way your country treats Macedonians.

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rintzscar@reddit

No, it isn't. My country's opinions are shared by the majority of the world, including all member states of the EU.

I'm quite confident there was no EU at the time.

As for now, EU is doing a fair job with a pencil, as I'm sure you already know (I hope).

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doarks11@reddit

I know that the country almost went bankrupt building fake museums and statues of Alexander and Phillip trying to steal an identity

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thetalesoftheworld@reddit

Oh, I'm sorry, but we don't have rich GB and DE for mom and dad to pay us our debts and finance rebuilding the Acropolis, a.k.a. crafting an identity from scratch.

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doarks11@reddit

You admit that the acropolis was already there, built by ancient greeks and restored by modern Greeks. Perfect cultural continuity. I wish other nations also accepted their cultures and identities and didn’t go around looking for others. Seriously what is wrong with being a Slav?

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That's a lie. It's enough to show some document that your great-grandpa had a Bulgarian as a language at school subject. Considering the "administration" Bulgaria had, given by the Nazis, at a point Bulgarian was taught at schools.

BTW, there's always a guy that "takes care of things" for a few hundred euro.

But not to worry, everyone's ditching the BG passports once they get German/Swiss/British/ etc.

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fixme123@reddit

You need a school diploma, stating you graduated as Bulgarian, not that you studied Bulgarian. Otherwise we would have just given you all passports the moment you were born :)

BTW, there's always a guy that "takes care of things" for a few hundred euro.

Sure.

But not to worry, everyone's ditching the BG passports once they get German/Swiss/British/ etc.

Yours to do whatever you want with it.

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thetalesoftheworld@reddit

- One, one needs to ask for one. I'm not hesitating for a second that if you could, you'll write BG citizenships the day we were born. I'm really sorry your your government's attempts went futile with that strategy, but oh well.

- Yes. yes there are. The prices vary.

- Exactly. Thank you for lending us yours in the meantime.

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fixme123@reddit

Funny, suddenly change from "you need to prove origins" to "you need to prove diploma". Awesome.

Most people use birth, death, military certificates from what I have know. Quite a big number of schools were built between 41'-44' which were integrated in the Bulgarian School system. That means a Bulgarian School diploma. How many people use that to get a passport, I assume you know better.

- One, one needs to ask for one. I'm not hesitating for a second that if you could, you'll write BG citizenships the day we were born. I'm really sorry your your government's attempts went futile with that strategy, but oh well.

Hehe just banter :)

- Yes, yes there are. The prices vary.

It was not meant to be sarcastic. I'm sure it does.

- Exactly. Thank you for lending us yours in the meantime.

Anytime.

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CondensedHappiness@reddit

You really dont know what you are talking about... 1/3 of Bulgarian's current population has roots from the Macedonian region, like myself. I have "Bulgarian origin" and so does half of my town who are refugees from Macedonia. They were greeted by the locals not as foreigners, but as Bulgarians. Because they were... guess what... yup... Bulgarians

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thetalesoftheworld@reddit

No, because the Macedonian were thinking they're not about to commit the things they did. Very soon they changed their minds.

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RegionSignificant977@reddit

I will second that for 1/3 of Bulgarians. I have ancestry from Stip and Drama Region in Aegean Macedonia. The problem for me is that the historiography of North Macedonia today is vastly different than the things that I know from my grandfather, the son of my Stip great grandfather. 100% of Stip christian population was part of Bulgarian Exarchate at the time before my great grandfather came to Bulgaria around WWI. Also like 90% of Macedonian independence forces joined Bulgarian Army in the WWI.

Током балканских ратова вође ВМОРО-а (и лијевог и десног крила) придружили су се Македонско-једренском добровољачком корпусу и борили се заједно са Бугарском војском. Други, попут Санданског, помагали су бугарској војсци са својим четама, док су неки продрли чак до регије Касторија (Костур) у југозападној Македонији.[45] У Другом балканском рату чете ВМОРО-а бориле су се против Грка и Срба у првим линијама фронта, али су касније разбијене и протјеране. Петар Чаулев био је један од вођа Охридско-дебарског устанака који су заједно организовали ВМОРО и албански качаци у западној Македонији.

With all that said I don't mind North Macedonia sovereignty, but not at the expense of my family history.

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rintzscar@reddit

Again, we have no territorial demands and we support the independence and sovereignty of the Republic of North Macedonia. This has been the Bulgarian policy for the last 34 years and has never changed. This is quite literally the opposite of imperialism.

I don't understand why you're lying and what you're trying to achieve with these lies.

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mladokopele@reddit

Yeah mate, we gave EU passports to half of them so they can work in the west.. Such monsters we are Bulgarians.. :/

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RegionSignificant977@reddit

Large part of the population of Bulgaria is as much Macedonian as them. We have constant provocations from North Macedonia and Bulgarian government is reacting because it's wrong and people are also reacting. How do you will react if they say that Josip Bros Tito was Macedonian? And all of Croatia is fascist because of Ante Pavelic?

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PlamenIB@reddit

How do we treat them? We recognized them by the name Macedonia, we opened our ports when Greece embargoed them, we give them weapons and tanks when they were in war. Not to mention when Yugoslavia fell and there is emergency state in our army- we were ready to fight for them. And after all the sp*t on our face calling us facists, mongols and tatars, calming our history, the police beating up people who call themselves Bulgarians. Did we build Skopje 2014? Did we piss- off the Greeks by putting Alexander the Great on their banknotes? Did we force them to put that star on their flag? We use to treat them well and now we treat them the way they asked for. Why did you block Montenegro?

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elusivemoods@reddit

gif

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CypriotGreek@reddit

North Macedonia’s constant complaints about the EU are tiring. They expect everyone to twist history and reality to fit their own warped narrative, and when that doesn’t happen, they cry injustice. If this is how they behave during accession talks, imagine the dysfunction they’d bring as a member. The EU needs cooperation more than anything right now, not endless victimhood and revisionism.

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fiery_prometheus@reddit

Maybe he should focus on whatever injustice and discrimination they have in their own country first, bringing this up in the current political atmosphere, you clearly show your values aren't aligned with EUs, and therefore, maybe you shouldn't be part of EU, but I hope this guy is not representative of the country as a whole, and this just feels like more destabilizing PSYOPS from Russia.

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damjan193@reddit

What "injustice" and "discrimination" we have in our own country, that others (namely Bulgaria and Greece) don't have in their own country? It's only injustice because your countries say so.

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Why "must" we recognize Bulgarian minority (which we already do), because you say so? Why musn't you recognize Macedonian or any other minority then? Our system is "bad" because you hate us and that's it, otherwise it's by far the best in the region, at least when it comes to minority rights.

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RegionSignificant977@reddit

Hello! Here I am! My great grandfather was born in Stip, the other one was born in Drama, Aegean Macedonia. My Stip great grandfather was VMRO and he had to leave not to be killed by Serbs when Stip became part of Yugoslavia. My Aegean great grandfather had to live his home and his land because of Greeks. With around half a million people around that thime from Aegean Macedonia alone. We are not minority in Bulgaria. We are Bulgaria. Bulgaria had Resen born prime minister over 100 years ago. His father was killed in Ilinden uprising. Does that look like discrimination to you?
And we don't hate you, you can be my cousin from my Stip great grandfathers siblings. I have at least a dozen. But if you want we to respect our identity, you have to respect our ancestors identity. Also, Goce Delchev was Bulgarian. Even according to your former President.
Also, in Bulgarian constitution there aren't ethnicities named, and Bulgarian ethnicity isn't special. We don't have to make a list, every Bulgarian citizen has the same rights no matter what his ethnicity is. For what reason you have decided to list different ethnicities I don't know. But I know that something is missing. And EU knows that something's missing.
Maybe 1/3 of Bulgarians today have Macedonian ancestry, and we are perfectly fine. It's your turn now. You demand respect, but you disrespect even people like Goce Delchev.

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damjan193@reddit

You're always acting as if you're the only ones that have grandfathers, we have them too, from all over Macedonia, Stip, Prilep, Ohrid, Kukus, Voden etc, and they are NOT Bulgarians, only Macedonians. I wasn't talking about people like you with assimilated ancestors, I'm talking about people who feel only Macedonian, speak Macedonian language, and are only Bulgarian citizens but not ethnically Bulgarian. Your right to feel both Macedonian and Bulgarian is yours alone, no body can take that away from you and we do not dispute it, it is you who dispute the right of people to feel Macedonian only. There are about a dozen decisions from the European Court about your discrimination against Macedonians.

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RegionSignificant977@reddit

According to my great grandfather Stip was 100% Bulgarian when he was there before the WWI. You are saying that he lied to my grandfather, his son, I haven't met him and you want me to accept your version? Why? Would you do it? And how was he assimilated? In Stip?
You can feel whatever you like, but you insist that my great grandfather is assimilated. Well, I can't agree with that.
And what about Goce Delchev? Was he also assimilated? By whom?

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damjan193@reddit

And my greatgrandfather said that Stip and the rest of Macedonia was 100% Macedonian lol, do you say my greatgrandfather lied to my grandfather, who was a partisan and fought against the fascist for independent Macedonia?

That's my whole point, you have grandfathers that say one thing and we have grandfathers that say something else. WHO is denying your right to feel how you want? You are the ones denying ours! I say he was assimilated but I am a nobody, I don't even care tbh. However, your whole country and goverment deny our right and the right of our ancrstors to feel and speak Macedonian.

Goce Delchev was one of many, you do realize he speaks of being Macedonian as well? There are others like Gjorgija Pulevski, Kiril Pejcinovic, Teodosij Gologanov, Krste Petkov Misirkov etc.

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RegionSignificant977@reddit

Goce Delchev was one of many, you do realize he speaks of being Macedonian as well?

But you are saying that it's impossible to be Macedonian and Bulgarian at the same time.
Tane Nikolov, for example that also fought for independent Macedonia and Thrace founded VTRO later, T stands for Thracian. Does that mean that he's not Bulgarian but Thracian? And I can't mention the fact that a year ago or so he was also named Macedonian in Macedonian version of Wikipedia. Was Haskovo part of Macedonia?
When was your great grandfather born? Macedonian as separate ethnicity became popular there around 1930, when my great gradnfater was already in Pirin Macedonia, Bulgaria.
I can find enough proofs of the words of my great grandfather from independent sources outside Balkans. Can you prove me wrong for the times before WWI? There you are:

"The chief peculiarity of the [ethnic] “Macedonians” is that there are none. Macedonia is a geographical expression. Tucked in between Greece, Serbia and Bulgaria and the Turkish province of Albania, Macedonia contains a number of races living in perfect? want of harmony with one another: Bulgarians, Serbs, Greeks, Albanians, Jews, Turks." (Everybody's Magazine, Harvard Library, July 1903)
"But who are the Macedonians? You will find Bulgarians and Turks? who call themselves Macedonians, you find Greek Macedonians, there are Serbian Macedonians, and it is possible to find Roumanian Macedonians. You will not, however, find a single Christian Macedonian who is not a Serbian, a Bulgarian, a Greek, or a Roumanian. They all curse the Turk, and they love Macedonia.? But it is Greek Macedonia, or Bulgarian Macedonia, and their eyes flame with passion, whilst their fingers seek the triggers of their guns." (John Foster Fraser, “Pictures From The Balkans", 1906)

Then look at the documents of VMRO and newspapers of VMRO. Is the language different that yours today? And why?

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damjan193@reddit

But you are saying that it's impossible to be Macedonian and Bulgarian at the same time.

I did not, where did I say this? Nor is this my country's official stance. Again, you are the ones who say that it's impossible to be ethnically Macedonian before ww2 or ww1 in this very comment! And your country has the same stance.

When was your great grandfather born? Macedonian as separate ethnicity became popular there around 1930

1899 I believe. Your second sentence is also not true.

Can you prove me wrong for the times before WWI?

Yes, read Bulgarian journalist Petko Slaveykov's column from 1871 called "The Macedonian Question" for a start. He says many Macedonians feel like a seperate ethnicity, connected to ancient Macedonians. He says all this mockingly (since he is a Bulgarian), but that doesn't change the fact people felt that way.

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RegionSignificant977@reddit

And what's the point of not adding Bulgarians in your constitution then? Macedonians in Bulgaria are feeling Bulgarian, since my family from Aegean, Pirin and Vardar Macedonia can remember. Including my Stip great grandfather, but my cousins from his siblings might deny that.
Greek invented the "slavophonic greek" thing and Ancient Macedonian link with "slavophonic greeks" is connected with that for them to be able to claim more land from Ottoman empire. Parts of Greece were freed much earlier, and they had control over the Orthodox church which gave them a chance to destroy many of our and yours written history in the monasteries. Also to facilitate that.
Slavic people came more than 5 centuries later. And we know that not just from Bizantine sources. It didn't work and that's why they have to expel most of our people in Aegean Macedonia to Bulgaria. Small part of those people stayed, and later were tormented by the Metaxas regime, and some of them escaped to Yugoslavia and many places around the world, but by no means they were as much as the ones that came to Bulgaria much earlier that were expelled because they were identifying as Bulgarian.
And again, the language! Why is that so different that your language. Here's more. It's different from earlier VMRO documets, that's almost 100% contemporary Bulgarian.
Also why the large part of VMRO joined Bulgarian army in WWI? And why many of the notable members that survived stayed in Bulgaria after that.

In 1920s the IMRO (United) as a whole, defined the Slavs of Macedonia as Bulgarians.[4] In 1929 there was a split between the leftist activists, a group headed by Mihail Gerdzhikov, Pavel Shatev, Petar Pop Arsov and Filip Atanasov wanted IMRO (United) to work independently and not with the support of the Comintern. They also demanded the newspaper Makedonsko delo to cease publish.[5] By the 1930s however, IMRO (United) endorsed Macedonian nationalism.

For sure there were people that would think of Macedonian as separate identity earlier, but it wasn't that widely spread at all. There's no way all of you to have ancestors that were identifying as non Bulgarian around the end of 19th and the beginning of the 20th century.

"Where an overarching identity existed among Slavs in Macedonia, it was a Bulgarian one until at least the 1860s. The cultural impetus for a separated 'Macedonian identity' would only emerge later..." (Thomas Gerard Gallagher, “Outcast Europe”, page 47, Routledge, 2001)

With all that said, again, I can respect your identity now. I don't mind at all for you to have separate sovereign country and I don't want of your land or part of it whatsoever But I also can insist of respecting the people there and any part of Macedonia, no matter if it's in your country, Greece or Bulgaria.

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damjan193@reddit

And what's the point of not adding Bulgarians in your constitution then?

There is no problem. We've actually offerd Bulgaria to add Bulgarian minority in our constitution FOUR TIMES since the 1990s, and Bulgaria denied. Our current goverment wants to add the Bulgarian minority at the end of the ascension process instead of at the beggining. It's still going to happen, just later. The problem is that we fear that this is just the first of many future demands by Bulgaria.

Macedonians in Bulgaria are feeling Bulgarian, since my family from Aegean, Pirin and Vardar Macedonia can remember. Including my Stip great grandfather, but my cousins from his siblings might deny that.

You answer your own question. Why do your cousins disagree, did they not have a greatgradfather also? Did he not tell them they are Macedonians? Did he lie to them? The Macedonian question is so complex, hence the different naratives.

But I also can insist of respecting the people there and any part of Macedonia, no matter if it's in your country, Greece or Bulgaria.

LMAO, when has your spineless goverment and country done ANYTHING for Macedonians in Greece? Why don't you do the same to Greece as you do to us? That's right, it's cause you're weak and powerless and you can only pray on the ones weaker than you. The day you actually do something for the Macedonians in Greece is the day I will happily apply for Bulgarian passport.

With all that said, again, I can respect your identity now.

Why just NOW? Did my partisan grandfather lie to me? I don't understand why you keep saying we are denying your rights, you are denying ours. Actually, I don't even giva a shit what you respect or don't. I am Macedonian, and all my ancestors before me were Macedonians and that will never change. You can even ocupy us again if you like, we've beaten you once and we will do it again of we have to and as many times as it takes.

.

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RegionSignificant977@reddit

It's not that easy with the EU legislation. What do you think is stopping Montenegro? It takes years usually to achieve that. And the negotiation process is mostly about that. It hasn't started, and there you can see the reason why. I don't see anything about our mutual friendship contract. And also, Bulgaria gains nothing for adding Bulgarians in your constitution. It constitutes Bulgarians and Macedonians as separate ethnicities. In your own constitution. That's more in your interest than in Bulgaria interest. You have to respect the rights of every human being anyway.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potential_enlargement_of_the_European_Union

I don't care about your past. My question was why are you harrassing us and not Greece who are asimilating Macedonians (according to you Bulgarians) even to this day. Not 200 years ago, today. What are your cousins from Aegean Macedonia call themselves? Do they even speak a Slavic language? Are they even allowed to?

Well, if you care about our people history, you will know. More than half a million people were expelled to Bulgaria. At that time population of the Balkans was much lower. The village where my Aegean great grandfather was born disappeared because of that. Hardly anyone stayed there. The bulk of refugees at that time are from Aegean Macedonia, not Vardar Macedonia. We didn't had population exchange with Yugoslavia, just with Greece and Turkey. My wife has a part of the family that lived right at the border of Greece and Turkey, they considered themselves Thracian, not Macedonian in that area. The few that stayed were grkomans. In Vardar Macedonia where I know that I have relatives. It was still in Yugoslav days, when I met two of them once. Their mother was close to my mother and she never denied that her grandfather was Bulgarian. But their father was speaking in Serbian to his family on purpose when we were there. And he wasn't Serb. He was a communist, and he made his sons to hate Bulgaria, and to deny that their great grandfather was Bulgarian. And my Stip great grandfather had more siblings than just their great grandfather. Who also came in Bulgaria, but their mother asked him to return to Stip to take care of her.
So if I have to dig further in that, It would be very nice if we have Aegean sea access. Exempt that we don't care about the land, although the land access to Aegean sea is much more valuable economically. But I doubt that I'm related to someone in Greece, and I'm sure that no one that close stayed there. My Aegean great grandfather siblings also came in Bulgaria. On the other hand, you can be my cousin.
Also for almost every notable person in your history in 19th century, I can read something like that:

At the age of 45, Pulevski fought as a member of the First Bulgarian Legion in 1862 against the Ottoman siege at Belgrade.[6][7] He also participated in the Serbian–Ottoman War in 1876, and then in the Russo-Turkish War of 1877–78 as part of the Bulgarian Volunteer Corps,[8] which led to the Liberation of Bulgaria; during the latter, he was a voivode of a unit of Bulgarian volunteers,[9][10][11] taking part in the Battle of Shipka Pass.[12] He also participated as a volunteer in the Kresna-Razlog Uprising (1878–79),[8] which aimed at the unification of Ottoman Macedonia with Bulgaria.[13] In an application for a veteran pension to the Bulgarian Parliament in 1882,[14] he expressed his regret about the failure of the unification of Ottoman Macedonia with Bulgaria. In 1883, aged 66, Pulevski received a government pension in recognition of his service as a Bulgarian volunteer. Pulevski settled in the village of Progorelec, near Lom, Bulgaria, where he received gratuitously agricultural land from the state. Later he moved to Kyustendil.[15] Pulevski died in Sofia in 13 February 1893.[16][17]

And I don't know if we are assimilated or you are made like that to don't want to join Bulgaria like Pulevski desired, but I know for sure that we have much more in common than you want to admit.

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damjan193@reddit

First of all, how do you write such long comments? Reddit doesn't let me post half as long comments, I had to devide them in two and still couldn't post everything I wanted.

You just need to do it for negotiation process to start, that's all. There's nothing about friendship agreement there.

What's the point of starting negotiations when we will get blocked anyway by you again down the line? We can start the negotiations but the whole framework includeds the friendship agreement as well. Your president also said it. Given Bulgaria's hostile treatment towards us so far, I am sure we will get blocked in the future even if we add Bulgarians in the constitution, because of the protocols your president mentions. Adding Bulgariansis alone is not a problem at all, like I already told you.

https://youtu.be/IR2kY4FDU6k?si=ApfI-l578MnooU8j

You have to respect the rights of every human being anyway.

We do. Being part of a constitution is not a human right. You so not respect human rights.

And I don't know if we are assimilated or you are made like that to don't want to join Bulgaria like Pulevski desired

Pulevski's wish was to see Macedonia free from Ottoman rule. It's very easy to see things with hindsight, from today's perspective, but back then people didn't know what would happen in the future. Macedonia was left unliberated and with no support from forign powers for an independent state (as opposed to all the other newly formed countries). Pulevski fought for any side that fought the Ottomans, including the Serbian army, with hope of liberating Macedonia. He's important for us because he had one of the first dictionaries in Macedonian language.

but I know for sure that we have much more in common than you want to admit.

We have very much in common, you are our closest nation, historically and otherwise, I never denied that.

[-]

RegionSignificant977@reddit

I already told you. Even starting the negotiations will have positive effect on your country.
Starting the negotiation process also can lead to more foreign investments because the investors would feel more secure and would expect better economic performance when you enter the EU. Bulgaria had huge economic growth before EU admission because of that. Bulgaria can't block you forever. Bulgaria can't play with all of the EU interest. Bulgaria will be pressed by other more influential EU members and was pressed by more influential EU members to accept the French proposal.
Our president is talking nonsense in that clip. In fact a lot, lately, not just about Macedonia. EU repeatedly said that it was only bilateral matter.
In 1978 Bulgaria wasn't free. Half of Bulgaria (south Bulgaria) was an Ottoman province, and Kingdom of Bulgaria north of Balkan Mountains and Sofia was tributary kingdom of the Ottoman Empire. That means that Bulgaria had to pay tax to the Ottomans. The main part of dividing Bulgaria was that no one wanted a large country on the Balkans. This was decided at Berlin Congress right after 1978 ceasefire between Russian Empire and Ottoman empire, without anyone form Bulgaria participating. Great Britain, Bismark, AustroHungary and maybe more all were deciding the future of Bulgaria without us. Bismark wanted Bulgaria to have access to Aegean Sea only.
The people at that time, Pulevski also knew that the great powers don't want large country in the Balkans. In 1885 Bulgaria and Ottoman province of East Rumelia announced the Unification of Bulgaria. Bulgarian army was at the south east border, waiting for Ottoman empire to attack, and we were attacked by Serbia. With Austrohungarian Empire blessing and financial support, and Russian Empire supplied arms. Also Greece wanted compensation but it hadn't border with Bulgaria at that time. If they had they would attack Bulgaria also. And Romania too, but withdrew the demand soon after. Bulgarian forces had to march from southeast border with Ottoman Empire to Serbian border and I doubt that there was a railroad at that time. The Serbian Army was defeated, and we might have chased them to Belgrade if Austrohungary didn't threaten us to enter the war.
Again, I'm telling you all of that because we now sit in our cozy homes and discuss that a century and more later, but the things at that time weren't that easy at all. Both Bulgaria and East Rumelia were undisputedly Bulgarian at that time, and it still led to war. Even as early as 1885. And VMRO knew that. And as it was dangerous of Macedonia to be totally independent, it was even more dangerous to join another country when no great power at that time wanted on Balkans.
I can only wish you sincerely good luck to you and your country and thank you for the discussion. I might have different views about some things but that doesn't mean that I hate you. But as we have morons in our politics as Karakachanov and Dzambazky so do you.
Redit sometimes doesn't reply. It's not always about the length of the post. I'm surprised by the length allowed here compared to other subs.

[-]

RegionSignificant977@reddit

Our current goverment wants to add the Bulgarian minority at the end of the ascension process instead of at the beggining. It's still going to happen, just later. The problem is that we fear that this is just the first of many future demands by Bulgaria.

OK, but that's not the same that you had negotiated with the EU. And your admission process simply wouldn't start. The only reason not to do it is if your government didn't want you to start negotiation process, because they have to start legislation synchronization process to ensure the rule of law in your country that would make their stealing harder. From Bulgaria side the veto is lifted. It's all up to you, and you don't have nothing to lose exempt your corrupt government. At your expense. The people of your country. You can blame Bulgaria as much as you want, but it's only you that are losing from this. Exempt if you believe that spinless Bulgaria can make the whole EU to do whatever Bulgaria wants.

You answer your own question. Why do your cousins disagree, did they not have a greatgradfather also? Did he not tell them they are Macedonians? Did he lie to them? The Macedonian question is so complex, hence the different naratives.

At the same time they will find documents that prove that their ancestors were Bulgarian to get Bulgarian passport. I have my great grandfathers documents, that's what is written there. Maybe that weak Bulgaria that you are talking about managed to assimilate him in the mighty Ottoman Empire.

LMAO, when has your spineless goverment and country done ANYTHING for Macedonians in Greece? Why don't you do the same to Greece as you do to us? That's right, it's cause you're weak and powerless and you can only pray on the ones weaker than you. The day you actually do something for the Macedonians in Greece is the day I will happily apply for Bulgarian passport.

My spinless government had 3 wars because of that. It was so spinless, that in the second one all of Bulgaria neighbors had to fight Bulgaria together. And you fought together with us. And lost with us. Maybe that was the moment when you became disappointed from Bulgaria.
Then, after the war the same spinless government welcomed at least 800000 people from Aegean and Vardar Macedonia. And gave them land and means to survive. Bulgaria at that time was under 4mln with those over 1mln refugees including ones from Turkey and Romania. And it was a huge effort by Bulgarian people.
We didn't fought much in the fourth war for some reason. Bulgaria has less than 30000 casualties in WWII, including civilians, and including the ones that fought against Germany, where the most casualties were given. My grandfather was also wounded in the battle of Drava. The same one, the son of the one from Stip. Compared to 388000 in WWI that's nothing. Were you even resisting? After Croatia Axis forces had the most collaborators in Vardar Macedonia from all of the Yugoslavia. You need to read that in independent history sources, you wouldn't find it in your or even our history books. Of course, the resistance in communist Yugoslavia was popular. But I can't explain that few casualties from Bulgarian side, and that's including Aegean Macedonia and later ones against German Wehrmacht.

You didn't say anything about the language. Why all VMRO was using Bulgarian if they weren't? And why you are saying that we lie about the language before 1945?

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damjan193@reddit

You didn't say anything about the language. Why all VMRO was using Bulgarian if they weren't? And why you are saying that we lie about the language before 1945?

I think the comment limit has been reached.

[-]

damjan193@reddit

You didn't say anything about the language. Why all VMRO was using Bulgarian if they weren't? And why you are saying that we lie about the language before 1945?

This is a very complicated topic that would require very long posts, which is why I avoided it. I can't even write a longer comment than this one.

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damjan193@reddit

You didn't say anything about the language. Why all VMRO was using Bulgarian if they weren't? And why you are saying that we lie about the language before 1945?

This is a very complicated topic that would require very long posts, which is why I avoided it. I can't even write a longer comment than this one. In short, most educated Macedonians got their education in Bulgarian schools because there was no Macedonian schools at the time. It was either Bulgarian or Greek (later Serbian). Bulgarians and Macedonians were very close, this is undeniable. But people like Krste Petkov Misirkov, who although admitted that Macedonians spoke Bulgarian at the time, fought for a seperate Macedonian language, because it was in fact a different language, it only didn't have the means to thrive. VMRO cared more about liberation than languages and ethnicities, they were fighters not polititians.

[-]

damjan193@reddit

You didn't say anything about the language. Why all VMRO was using Bulgarian if they weren't? And why you are saying that we lie about the language before 1945?

This is a very complicated topic that would require very long posts, which is why I avoided it. I can't even write a longer comment than this one. In short, most educated Macedonians got their education in Bulgarian schools because there was no Macedonian schools at the time. It was either Bulgarian or Greek (later Serbian). Bulgarians and Macedonians were very close, this is undeniable. But people like Krste Petkov Misirkov, who although admitted that Macedonians spoke Bulgarian at the time, fought for a seperate Macedonian language, because it was in fact a different language, it only didn't have the means to thrive. VMRO cared more about liberation than languages and ethnicities, they were fighters not polititians.

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damjan193@reddit

After Croatia Axis forces had the most collaborators in Vardar Macedonia from all of the Yugoslavia. You need to read that in independent history sources, you wouldn't find it in your or even our history books.

This independent source of yours most likely counts the vast Albanian minority that fought for the Nazis, called Balisti. Among Macedonians, there were of course collaborators for the Bulgarians and Germans, every country had them, but not to any major extents. Most were partisans or supported them.

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damjan193@reddit

After Croatia Axis forces had the most collaborators in Vardar Macedonia from all of the Yugoslavia. You need to read that in independent history sources, you wouldn't find it in your or even our history books.

This independent source of yours most likely counts the vast Albanian minority that fought for the Nazis, called Balisti. Among Macedonians, there were of course collaborators for the Bulgarians and Germans, every country had them, but not to any major extents. Most were partisans or supported them.

You didn't say anything about the language. Why all VMRO was using Bulgarian if they weren't? And why you are saying that we lie about the language before 1945?

This is a very complicated topic that would require very long posts, which is why I avoided it.

[-]

damjan193@reddit

After Croatia Axis forces had the most collaborators in Vardar Macedonia from all of the Yugoslavia. You need to read that in independent history sources, you wouldn't find it in your or even our history books.

This independent source of yours most likely counts the vast Albanian minority that fought for the Nazis, called Balisti. Among Macedonians, there were of course collaborators for the Bulgarians and Germans, every country had them, but not to any major extents. Most were partisans or supported them.

You didn't say anything about the language. Why all VMRO was using Bulgarian if they weren't? And why you are saying that we lie about the language before 1945?

This is a very complicated topic that would require very long posts, which is why I avoided it. I can't even write a longer post than this one

[-]

damjan193@reddit

OK, but that's not the same that you had negotiated with the EU.

We didn't negotiate anything with EU, they just gave an ultimatum and that's it. The French proposal doesn't only include the Bulgarian minority in the constitution but also the good neighbour contract or whatever it's called, which says that there must be an exsistance of historical comittee. Once this historical committee comes to a stalemate, which it no doubt will because Bulgaria is very rigid in their historical views and comes from a position of power, we will get blocked by you once again. Your president comfirmed this many times, that Bulgarians in the constitution is only the beginning. This is our fear.

because they have to start legislation synchronization process to ensure the rule of law in your country that would make their stealing harder.

Our laws are copy pasted from EU already. Do you think our current laws allow polititians to steal money? We've been far more ready than Montenegro and Albaniа to enter and would have probably entered even before Bulgaria had it not been fo the Greek veto.

At the same time they will find documents that prove that their ancestors were Bulgarian to get Bulgarian passport.

90% of "Bulgarian documents" people find here are from during your "administration" of Macedonia in ww2. I also have them, from my gradfather's school and later his job. The same grandfather that fought with the partisans against the Bulgarians lol.

My spinless government had 3 wars because of that.

I don't care about your past. My question was why are you harrassing us and not Greece who are asimilating Macedonians (according to you Bulgarians) even to this day. Not 200 years ago, today. What are your cousins from Agean Macedonia call themselves? Do they even speak a Slavic language? Are they even allowed to?

[-]

damjan193@reddit

OK, but that's not the same that you had negotiated with the EU.

We didn't negotiate anything with EU, they just gave an ultimatum and that's it. The French proposal doesn't only include the Bulgarian minority in the constitution but also the good neighbour contract or whatever it's called, which says that there must be an exsistance of historical comittee. Once this historical committee comes to a stalemate, which it no doubt will because Bulgaria is very rigid in their historical views and comes from a position of power, we will get blocked by you once again. Your president comfirmed this many times, that Bulgarians in the constitution is only the beginning. This is our fear.

because they have to start legislation synchronization process to ensure the rule of law in your country that would make their stealing harder.

Our laws are copy pasted from EU already. Do you think our current laws allow polititians to steal money? We've been far more ready than Montenegro and Albaniа to enter and would have probably entered even before Bulgaria had it not been fo the Greek veto.

At the same time they will find documents that prove that their ancestors were Bulgarian to get Bulgarian passport.

90% of "Bulgarian documents" people find here are from during your "administration" of Macedonia in ww2. I also have them, from my gradfather's school and later his job. The same grandfather that fought with the partisans against the Bulgarians lol.

My spinless government had 3 wars because of that.

I don't care about your past. My question was why are you harrassing us and not Greece who are asimilating Macedonians (according to you Bulgarians) even to this day. Not 200 years ago, today. What are your cousins from Agean Macedonia call themselves? Do they even speak a Slavic language? Are they even allowed to?

After Croatia Axis forces had the most collaborators in Vardar Macedonia from all of the Yugoslavia. You need to read that in independent history sources, you wouldn't find it in your or even our history books.

This independent source of yours most likely counts the vast Albanian minority that fought for the Nazis, called Balisti.

[-]

damjan193@reddit

OK, but that's not the same that you had negotiated with the EU.

We didn't negotiate anything with EU, they just gave an ultimatum and that's it. The French proposal doesn't only include the Bulgarian minority in the constitution but also the good neighbour contract or whatever it's called, which says that there must be an exsistance of historical comittee. Once this historical committee comes to a stalemate, which it no doubt will because Bulgaria is very rigid in their historical views and comes from a position of power, we will get blocked by you once again. Your president comfirmed this many times, that Bulgarians in the constitution is only the beginning. This is our fear.

because they have to start legislation synchronization process to ensure the rule of law in your country that would make their stealing harder.

Our laws are copy pasted from EU already. Do you think our current laws allow polititians to steal money? We've been far more ready than Montenegro and Albaniа to enter and would have probably entered even before Bulgaria had it not been fo the Greek veto.

At the same time they will find documents that prove that their ancestors were Bulgarian to get Bulgarian passport.

90% of "Bulgarian documents" people find here are from during your "administration" of Macedonia in ww2. I also have them, from my gradfather's school and later his job. The same grandfather that fought with the partisans against the Bulgarians lol.

My spinless government had 3 wars because of that.

I don't care about your past. My question was why are you harrassing us and not Greece who are asimilating Macedonians (according to you Bulgarians) even to this day. Not 200 years ago, today. What are your cousins from Agean Macedonia call themselves? Do they even speak a Slavic language? Are they even allowed to?

After Croatia Axis forces had the most collaborators in Vardar Macedonia from all of the Yugoslavia. You need to read that in independent history sources, you wouldn't find it in your or even our history books.

This independent source of yours most likely counts the vast Albanian minority that fought for the Nazis, called Balisti. Among Macedonians, there were of course collaborators for the Bulgarians and Germans, every country had them, but not to any major extents. Most were partisans or supported them.

You didn't say anything about the language. Why all VMRO was using Bulgarian if they weren't? And why you are saying that we lie about the language before 1945?

This is a very complicated topic that would require very long posts, which is why I avoided it.

[-]

damjan193@reddit

OK, but that's not the same that you had negotiated with the EU.

We didn't negotiate anything with EU, they just gave an ultimatum and that's it. The French proposal doesn't only include the Bulgarian minority in the constitution but also the good neighbour contract or whatever it's called, which says that there must be an exsistance of historical comittee. Once this historical committee comes to a stalemate, which it no doubt will because Bulgaria is very rigid in their historical views and comes from a position of power, we will get blocked by you once again. Your president comfirmed this many times, that Bulgarians in the constitution is only the beginning. This is our fear.

because they have to start legislation synchronization process to ensure the rule of law in your country that would make their stealing harder.

Our laws are copy pasted from EU already. Do you think our current laws allow polititians to steal money? We've been far more ready than Montenegro and Albaniа to enter and would have probably entered even before Bulgaria had it not been fo the Greek veto.

At the same time they will find documents that prove that their ancestors were Bulgarian to get Bulgarian passport.

90% of "Bulgarian documents" people find here are from during your "administration" of Macedonia in ww2. I also have them, from my gradfather's school and later his job. The same grandfather that fought with the partisans against the Bulgarians lol.

My spinless government had 3 wars because of that.

I don't care about your past. My question was why are you harrassing us and not Greece who are asimilating Macedonians (according to you Bulgarians) even to this day. Not 200 years ago, today. What are your cousins from Agean Macedonia call themselves? Do they even speak a Slavic language? Are they even allowed to?

After Croatia Axis forces had the most collaborators in Vardar Macedonia from all of the Yugoslavia. You need to read that in independent history sources, you wouldn't find it in your or even our history books.

This independent source of yours most likely counts the vast Albanian minority that fought for the Nazis, called Balisti. Among Macedonians, there were of course collaborators for the Bulgarians and Germans, every country had them, but not to any major extents. Most were partisans or supported them.

You didn't say anything about the language. Why all VMRO was using Bulgarian if they weren't? And why you are saying that we lie about the language before 1945?

This is a very complicated topic that would require very long posts, which is why I avoided it. In short, most educated Macedonians got their education in Bulgarian schools because there was no Macedonian schools at the time. It was either Bulgarian or Greek (later Serbian). Bulgarians and Macedonians were very close, this is undeniable. But people like Krste Petkov Misirkov, who although admitted that Macedonians spoke Bulgarian at the time, fought for a seperate Macedonian language, because it was in fact a different language, it only didn't have the means to thrive. VMRO cared more about liberation than languages and ethnicities, they were fighters not polititians.

[-]

rintzscar@reddit

Okay, let's go through them.

Pulevski - was a volunteer in the First Bulgarian Legion, fought against the Ottomans. Volunteered in the Opalchentsi, the Bulgarian volunteers who fought for the freedom of Bulgaria during the Russo-Turkish war of 1878. Was the leader of a Bulgarian cheta and fought at the decisive Battle of Shipka Pass. Fought in the Bulgarian Kresna-Razlog Uprising which had the explicit aim to reunify the Slavic parts of Macedonia with the newly liberated Bulgaria. Received a veteran pension from the Bulgarian Parliament - in the correspondence, he said he was sorry that the unification failed. Lived the later years of his life in Bulgaria and died in Sofia. Has written numerous times he feels Bulgarian. He explicitly stated that the word "Macedonian" in his works means "from the region of Macedonia", not an ethnicity. In his last work with the title Grammar, containing Old Bulgarian language, arranged and corrected to be taught to Bulgarian and Macedonian sons and daughters, he stated that the Macedonian dialects are old Bulgarian and the differences with Bulgarian are purely geographical.

Peychinovich - an extremely strong supporter for the use of Modern Bulgarian as opposed to Old Church Slavonic in the Church. His most famous work, Ogledalo was written in "the most common and illiterary Bulgarian language of Lower Moesia" ("препростейшим и некнижним язиком Болгарским долния Мисии") - this is the exact actual quote from his own book. His second most important book was written, again according to the work itself, in the "common Bulgarian language of Lower Moesia, of Skopje and Tetovo" (original - "простїй Ѧзыкъ болгарский долнїѦ Мүссїи Скопсский и Тетовский").

Gologanov - translated numerous works in Bulgarian. Worked for the Bulgarian church, the Bulgarian Academy of Sciences and the Bulgarian Exarchate. Lived in Plovdiv and was active in Bulgarian literary circles with famous Bulgarians such as Nayden Gerov and Yoakim Gruev. Helped Bulgarian national hero Vasil Levski in his revolutionary quest. Later in his life, he was captured by the Ottomans and made to renounce the Bulgarian Exarchate. In 1874, the populations of Skopje and Ohrid organized plebiscites (similar to referendums now) and overwhelmingly voted to join the Bulgarian Exarchate. After that, he repented and was welcomed back in the Bulgarian Church. After further pressure from Constantinople, tried to establish a separate Macedonian Church. When he failed, Constantinople exiled him to a monastery in Bulgaria, where he started publishing pro-Bulgarian views on the Macedonian question.

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damjan193@reddit

Amazing Bulgarian-centric view, directly out of Todor Zivkov's ass.

Nobody is denying anyone's involvement in Bulgarian armies, schools, churches etc., so no point in mentioning that, nor do I see what it has to do with anything. Many of them were part of Serbian and Greek schools, churches etc., doesn't change a thing.

*You forgot to mention Pulevski's published works, the most important one in this context is "Речник од три језика с.македонски арбански и турски." It's a dictionary of Macedonian, Albanian and Turkish. No Bulgarian.

*Pejchinovich and Krchoski are important for us because they wrote in Macedonain langauage. In what way is their writing in "Modern Bulgarian" as you say, it's clearly in Tetovo, Skopje and Kumanovo dialects.

*Another Bulgarian-centric narative. He was not pressured by anyone to establish anything, why would anyone pressure him to establish a Macedonian church, who would gain from something like that? He was a strong supporter of a seperate Macedonian church as he felt Macedonians, a different people from Serbs, Greeks and Bulgarians, deserve their own church. The pressure was from Bulgaria to stop his activities, and he went to prison for it, lost his job because of it etc. With either death in prison or poverty or returning to the Exarchate, he chose the latter. That'a how you make pressure.

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rintzscar@reddit

These are just facts. All of them are supported by actual documents from the time, primary sources. Written by the people mentioned. By their own hands.

It is exactly because you deny this - undeniable history, supported by undeniable documents published by the authors themselves - that you will never join the EU. This level of propaganda exists only in North Korea. This kind of behaviour has no place in the EU.

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damjan193@reddit

Everything I said is also supported by facts, documents etc. Are ours deniable are yours aren't?

I'd rather be North Korea than Nazi Germany. Or Nazi Bulgaria, same thing. Fascist scum.

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rintzscar@reddit

Thanks for proving my point.

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damjan193@reddit

You too. Zeig...

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rintzscar@reddit

Misirkov - as a student in Belgrade, protested against Serbian propaganda and supported the Bulgarian position, which led him to leave Serbia and go to Sofia. Later he went to study in Russia and became a part of the Bulgarian Students Association in Saint Petersburg. He wrote about this himself, quote: "In 1897 I went to Petrograd University and for five years was among the Bulgarian studentship as Bulgarian and member of the Bulgarian Student Society." He's a founder of the pro-Bulgarian Secret Macedonian-Adrianople Circle in Russia, in the founding texts of the society he wrote, quote "there's no Bulgarian who is not interested in the situation and fate of that part of our homeland, which continue to groan under the yoke of the tyrant". Later became a Bulgarian teacher for the Bulgarian Exarchate. After the Balkan wars, he went back to Russia and worked as a teacher in the Bulgarian schools in Odessa and Chisinau. He sent a letter to famous Bessarabian Bulgarian Aleksandar Teodorov with a request to be promoted to a professor at Sofia University, quote "As a Bulgarian, I would willingly return to Bulgaria, if there is a need of a scientific research of the fate of the Bulgarian lands, especially Macedonia..." He sent a similar letter to famous Bulgarian historian Vasil Zlatarski to be made a professor, quote "at the newly established department for history of Macedonia and the other western Bulgarian lands." During WWI, he went to Bessarabia, to the local Bulgarian community and became a member of the Parliament of Bessarabia as a representative of the Bulgarian minority. After WWI, he opened a Bulgarian language school in Bolgrad. Later, he wrote to Macedonian Slavs and encouraged them to adopt a Bulgarian identity rather than welcome the Serbian one. During his entire life, he wrote numerous pro-Bulgarian articles and strongly supported the Bulgarian position in his own writings in his personal diary. He spent his later life in Bulgaria, he worked as a teacher. Died in Sofia, was buried as a honored educator by the Ministry of Education.

Mundane-Scarcity-145@reddit

It's even weirder than you think. The site was always well known but it was 1977 when the symbols and tombs were rediscovered . So, not only is this not a traditional symbol for them, not only was this adopted from a foreign country and had been used for only 5-10 years pre and after independence (even if it probably was not used even then), it absolutely alludes to territorial and historical claims.

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Aggressive_Limit2448@reddit

Yes actually here is the thing about territory claims: Tito wanted to incorporate Aegean Macedonia with that red flag. It was unsuccessful. After the independence of MK I know Greece was wary of eventual territory claims over the flag and later over the name resolution.

While for Bulgaria it goes like this: Bulgaria never was and is not scare of any territory claims because Vardar and Pirin were actually same part.

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thetalesoftheworld@reddit

Why are you on every post for Macedonia, trying to present it it worst light there is?

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damjan193@reddit

He's mently impaired.

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Mundane-Scarcity-145@reddit

We do have a constitutionaly recognized Muslim minority. You are right. In our opinion others don't exist. Because they actually don't.

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CypriotGreek@reddit

Exactly. Complaining about “injustice” while ignoring the issues in their own country is pretty telling. If their values were truly “aligned with the EU”, they wouldn’t be pushing this twisted narrative. Honestly, this kind of attitude makes it clear why their accession is stalled.

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elusivemoods@reddit

gif

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Itchy_Method_710@reddit

Something that becomes corrupted should be able to be cured. Stealing identity is not one of them.

I specifically wrote UK interference.

The Uk took care of themselves.

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Tsukee@reddit

Not in the slightest.

First his whole dumb argument is trying to wrap balant nationalism into the liberal identity rights.... Fuck that.

What things are they doing to Bulgarians in MK? I honestly don't know. I mean the people I know that have dual Bulgarian citizenship, did it for the EU passport and you guys gave it away like candies. They don't complain about Bulgarian minority rights ever.

I don't see how anything that you said justifies him stirring hatred toward a whole nation and constantly creating provocative posts. Dude is in Germany according to the flair :D Does he really care about his MK passport or heritage?

So we are talking about a Bulgarian born in Macedonia, who considers himself Bulgarian and is now living in Germany? It doesn't compute to me that he would be this obsessed with Macedonia honestly, I mean what would he be trying to prove? He never comments, he just ignites the fire and watches it burn.

[-]

MK faked history during Skopje 2014 and the ethno nationalists spend millions of money to steal history in order to mine the name dispute over EU accession.

I see the same with the Bulgarians today. They blame the opposition and all critical society as tratiors while beg EU only for money.

Well MK looks like a disfunctional country which cannot become part of EU only because it cannot reform and transform itself.

EU is sociology it's not only money and freedom of travel and working.

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marsel_dude@reddit

Ok me Tarzan, you Jane. You are barking at the wrong person with the "can not become part of EU". I can travel and experience that lifestyle whenever, I don't think MK as a majority is too excited about the whole EU thing. And don't get me started about how much I hate Skopje 2014, they butchered my city:(((((

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_-Event-Horizon-_@reddit

No.

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Hologriz@reddit

Is there any other purpose to Bulgaria in the EU except trying to make Tri Moreta a reality?

macedonians horribly discrominating bulgarians because they refuse to accept they are bulgarian and have always been bulgarian. If they do end up doing that then maybe - maybe - they can enter eu

Do you even read what I write? Where did I say that we are like the Netherlands or France? I said that they barely want us in. We and Romania did meet the requirements though and neither you nor Macedonia are anywhere near close to that.

What do you mean “bait” when you are the one using bait lmao. Bulgaria was the first country to recognise Macedonia as independent and the one that urged Russia to do so as well. At the same time Serbia and Greece contemplated whether to split it between them. And yes, Serbia has nothing to do with Macedonia. You were an occupier there.

Serbia also hasn’t paid for the war crimes, as Vucic and other notable people in your country held positions when you were committing war crimes less than 30 years ago. Idk why you are bringing up nationalist territorial claims. San Stefano Bulgaria is as real as Megali idea Greece. Both aren’t official positions, nor is anyone trying to “achieve” them. Last time I remember you are the country that doesn’t recognise the sovereign state of Kosovo which has 90%+ Albanian population which wants nothing to do with you or your country.

Accept the reality. Bulgaria and Romania met the criteria. Serbia and Macedonia do not meet the criteria and they aren’t close at all. The “poor” Bulgaria is much better off than Serbia. Nobody wants you or them in and it’s not like we owe you anything. We aren’t friends, nowhere near close to that. I also don’t really see the point of having about MKD-BG with a Serb who has nothing to do with it. Look at your own country first rather than poking your nose where it doesn’t belong. Don’t you have a corrupt autocrat to topple instead of arguing in Reddit about two foreign countries?

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herakababy@reddit

Don't project serbian chauvinism onto Bulgaria. Nobody considers so called "three seas" as anything but a moment in history or the occasional populist political party propaganda topic.

The original purpose of joining EU is agents of "National security" and their offspring to accumulate even more money. Distancing from russian infuence and improving living standards for the population are just side effects.

On the other hand macedonians discriminating people with bulgarian conscience in their country and building their whole identity on anti-bulgaria, while also claiming shared historical events and figures as solely their own is not a good neighbourly behaviour. You don't see our other neighbours doing similar shit, considering the much more controversial history we have with them. So using whatever diplomatic means available is a normal reaction to protect bulgarian interests, instead of more aggressive methods like sanctions and taxes.

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Hologriz@reddit

Is there any reason why a scholarlu debate on the eternal question of Goce Delčev or Simeons (or Jesus od Nazareths...) ethnicity could not be held with both countries inside the EU?

If you really wanted to show the errors of Macedonian ways, you d let Macedonia enter EU then debate them But you dont, you want to humiliate amd force Macedonians to reject their ethnocity. Thats what this is all about and thats why you are forcing these conditions on Macedonia.

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CondensedHappiness@reddit

So Bulgaria should not use its leverage? If feelings in NMacedonia were anything close to at least neutral, that could of been possible. But considering the historical thefts which are then used as anti-Bulgarian/Greek propaganda, why the hell should Bulgaria just let a objectively bad neighbour in?

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Educate-Me-Now@reddit

So Bulgaria should use its leverage to erase a neighboring nation’s identity? If the issue was truly about 'historical thefts,' you’d allow open discussions, not impose conditions on an entire country's EU path. This isn’t about history—it’s about power and control.

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CondensedHappiness@reddit

So Bulgaria should use its leverage to erase a neighboring nation’s identity?

Damn does Bulgaria have a magical stone or something? What kind of a identity is so easily erased???

If the issue was truly about 'historical thefts,' you’d allow open discussions, not impose conditions on an entire country's EU path.

A condition WAS the historical thefts, which is why a joint historical commission was created, out of which your country back pedaled.

This isn’t about history—it’s about power and control.

Funny how delusional one can get being high on copium all the time. Imagine if your country had the same historical narrative the rest of the world does. Just imagine you having 0 issues with Greece or Bulgaria since the day you proclaimed independence. North Macedonia's current situation would of been widely better off today, if not for the rampant historical theft that is used as propaganda in your country. For christ's sake look at your capital's center.

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Educate-Me-Now@reddit

If identity can’t be erased, why does Bulgaria demand constitutional changes, historical revisions, and even lobby in Albania to manufacture ‘Bulgarians’ for political leverage? You claim open discussion, yet Bulgaria blocks Macedonia’s EU path unless it submits to Bulgarian narratives.

As for ‘historical theft,’ every figure in Skopje’s city center is part of Macedonia’s history. Goce Delčev, the Ilinden revolutionaries, Tsar Samuil, and Alexander the Great all played crucial roles in Macedonian heritage. Just because Bulgaria and Greece claim them too doesn’t erase Macedonia’s historical continuity.

Instead of forcing identity changes and using political blackmail, maybe Bulgaria should focus on respecting Macedonians in its own borders—who, unlike the so-called ‘oppressed’ Bulgarians in Macedonia, actually had to fight legal battles just to be recognized.

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Kalypso_95@reddit

Alexander the Great, tsar Samuel and Goce Delcev all belonged to the same ethnicity!! 💪💪

Do you guys listen to yourselves? Do you oi expect to be taken seriously when you say things like that?

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Educate-Me-Now@reddit

Do you listen to yourself? Assigning modern ethnic labels to historical figures is a shallow and politically motivated attempt to rewrite history. Alexander lived over 2,000 years ago in a world without nation-states, Samuil ruled an empire spanning multiple regions, and Delčev explicitly identified with the Macedonian struggle for autonomy. If you think history is a game of ‘who claims who,’ then you’re the one not being taken seriously.

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CondensedHappiness@reddit

Bro, Gotse Delchev literally said he is Bulgarian. Tsar Samuil was literally tsar of the Bulgarians. Alexander literally said he was Greek. What is wrong with you and why cant you respect those people's right to self-determination

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Educate-Me-Now@reddit

Bro, Alexander lived in a time before ‘Greece’ existed as a nation, Samuil ruled a multiethnic empire, and Goce Delčev fought for Macedonian autonomy, not Bulgarian nationalism. If you actually respected self-determination, you wouldn’t be trying to rewrite history to fit your modern agenda

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CondensedHappiness@reddit

Bro, Alexander lived in a time before ‘Greece’ existed as a nation

Nation? No. Ethnicity? Most certainly yes. Spartans as well as Thebans ec etc etc were not a "nation" but they WERE GREEK. Why is it so hard to understand?

Samuil ruled a multiethnic empire

Yes, Samuil who was the fourth^([19]) and youngest son of count Nicholas, a Bulgarian noble, who might have been the count of Sredets district (modern-day Sofia),

Ruled the First Bulgarian Empire, that like any other empire is multi ethnic. He certainly did NOT rule a North Macedonian empire, no matter how hard you try to lie.

Goce Delčev fought for Macedonian autonomy, not Bulgarian nationalism

Many Bulgarians did, what is your point???

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Educate-Me-Now@reddit

Alexander the Great lived in a time before modern national identities existed. Assigning him a 19th-century ethnic label is pure historical revisionism. Spartans, Thebans, and other city-states weren’t ‘Greek’ in the modern sense—they identified with their own polities and frequently fought each other. Even Herodotus noted their differences.

Tsar Samuil ruled a vast, multiethnic empire that included Macedonians, Bulgarians, Vlachs, and others. He was never referred to as ‘Tsar of Bulgaria’ in his lifetime—that label was applied retroactively by later sources. His capital was in Ohrid, the center of his realm, and while Byzantine sources called his empire Bulgarian, this was a political designation, not an ethnic one. Claiming him as solely Bulgarian ignores the diverse reality of his rule.

Goce Delčev fought for Macedonian autonomy, not Bulgarian nationalism. Just because some Bulgarians supported the movement doesn’t change the fact that the Ilinden Uprising and IMRO were Macedonian-led struggles for self-determination.

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Kalypso_95@reddit

Even Herodotus noted their differences.

Herodotus literally wrote about the Greek identity (τὸ Ἑλλενικὸν), that it rests on common blood, common language, shared shrines and sacrifices, and similar ways of life—which they would not betray

You're talking about the meaning of Greek being different in ancient times than what it means today, yet on the same breath you're claiming every single Macedonian state, region, kingdom that existed since the antiquity as being "your heritage" just because you happen to share the name. Double standards much? Next you're gonna tell us how your people were mentioned in the Bible 😭

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Educate-Me-Now@reddit

Herodotus also literally wrote that the Macedonians were a distinct people from the Greeks, referring to them as ‘barbarians’ (non-Greeks) in multiple instances. If you’re going to cite Herodotus, at least do it properly.

And no, nobody is claiming ‘every single Macedonian state, region, or kingdom’ is exclusive heritage—Macedonia has always been diverse. The only ones obsessed with sole ownership here are you. History doesn’t belong to one nation, no matter how hard you try to rewrite it.

I won't indulge in your pettiness regarding the Bible comment but will give you something. It reads "North of Greece" not "In North Greece" 😉 *

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Kalypso_95@reddit

Herodotus regarded the Macedonians as either northern Greeks, or an intermediate group between "pure" Greeks and barbarians.[267] In the Histories (5.20.4) Herodotus calls king Alexander I an anēr Hellēn, Makedonōn huparchos (Ancient Greek: ἀνὴρ Ἕλλην, Μακεδόνων ὕπαρχος), which translates to either a "Greek viceroy of Macedonia",[268] or "a Greek who ruled over Macedonians".[267] In 7.130.3, he says that the Thessalians were the "first of the Greeks" to submit to Xerxes.[269] In the first book of the Histories, Herodotus recalls a reliable tradition according to which the Greek ethnos, in its wandering, was called "Macedonian" when it settled around Pindus and "Dorian" when it came to the Peloponnese,[270] and in the eighth book he groups several Greek tribes under "Macedonians" and "Dorians", implying that the Macedonians were Greeks

Yeah, if you're going to cite Herodotus, do it properly. I would send you the actual text in ancient Greek but you wouldn't understand a word. Historical continuity, my ass.

And no, nobody is claiming ‘every single Macedonian state, region, or kingdom’ is exclusive heritage—Macedonia has always been diverse. The only ones obsessed with sole ownership here are you. History doesn’t belong to one nation, no matter how hard you try to rewrite it.

You literally claim everything Macedonian and try to separate it from Greece. But on the same breath you're talking about shared history. The only reason you're saying this is because you know that you have nothing for yourselves so you want to share your neighbours' history. Sorry, but that's not how it goes. You can't choose Alexander from Greece, Samuel and Gotse Delcev from Bulgaria, Tesla from Serbia, Skabdeberg from Albania, Ataturk from Turkey (he was born in Thessaloniki, Macedonia after all) and call it your shared history. That's ridiculous

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Educate-Me-Now@reddit

Herodotus was actually pretty ambiguous about Macedonian identity. If he considered them outright Greek, why did he often refer to “the Greeks” and “the Macedonians” separately? That distinction wouldn’t exist if they were the same people. [Herodotus, 5.22]

The phrase ἀνήρ Ἕλλην, Μακεδόνων ὕπαρχος doesn’t prove what you think it does. Being a Philhellene (friend of Greeks) isn’t the same as being Greek—it just means Alexander I admired Greek culture. If all Macedonians were Greek, why did Greek athletes protest his participation in the Olympics, which were strictly for Greeks? [Herodotus, 5.22; Pausanias, 5.8.9]

As for the “Macedonians and Dorians” argument—Herodotus was describing migration patterns, not defining ethnic groups. Having some shared ancestry with Dorians doesn’t make all Macedonians Greek, just like Thracians living near Greeks didn’t suddenly become Greek either. [Herodotus, 1.56]

Herodotus never definitively called Macedonians Greek. He records what different people claimed, but even he refers to them as barbarians at times. That alone shows their Greekness wasn’t universally accepted. [Herodotus, 8.43]

The "Greek viceroy of Macedonia" claim is a complete misinterpretation. The actual text says Alexander I claimed descent from Argos, but this was contested by other Greeks. The title “Hellēn” wasn’t proof of ethnicity—it was often honorary or political. [Herodotus, 5.22; Plutarch, Moralia 329A]

The first Greeks to submit to Xerxes were the Thessalians, not the Macedonians. Herodotus states this directly (Histories, 7.172), so that claim is just wrong.

The ‘Dorian migration’ part is cherry-picked. Herodotus mentions multiple migration theories, and later historians like Thucydides and Strabo didn’t repeat this one—which means it wasn’t universally accepted. [Strabo, 7.7]

Macedonians weren’t just a ‘Greek tribe’—even Thucydides and Demosthenes treated them as foreigners. If they were just another Greek group, why did other Greeks constantly debate it? [Thucydides, 2.99; Demosthenes, Third Philippic]

This is a classic case of selectively picking parts of ancient sources to fit a modern nationalist narrative. If history were that simple, you wouldn’t need to stuff so much misinformation into one comment.

Herodotus wasn’t giving modern Greeks an exclusive claim to Macedonia. If he did, we wouldn’t even be having this discussion.

Macedonian identity wasn’t “invented” any more than any other Balkan identity was. It evolved, was shaped by historical struggles, and exists today not because of a region’s name, but because people identified as Macedonians long before modern politics forced the issue.

Your argument isn’t history—it’s a selective political narrative designed to deny one nation the same right to self-determination that you claim for your nation and yourself.

Please have a good night and let this rest here.

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Kalypso_95@reddit

What you're doing now is trying to find selective parts to fit your narrative. Please provide the actual text of Herodotus in ancient Greek, I'd like to read it. I can read ancient Greek you see, unlike you. The historical continuity you were talking about

The most important thing is that whatever the ancient Macedonians were (and don't forget that the royal dynasty was able to participate in the Olympics), it's really none of your business because they sure af weren't North Slavic Macedonians.

Your country is named Macedonia because of the Roman Macedonia, not the ancient kingdom of Alexander. Go claim some figures from Roman Macedonian times and if you need something more ancient, you can claim continuity with Paeonians. No one will give a fuck. You have as much in common with Paeonians as you have with Macedonians after all, which is nothing at all

Goodnight

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Educate-Me-Now@reddit

😂

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Kalypso_95@reddit

🙊

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Educate-Me-Now@reddit

Can't wait for the future.

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Kalypso_95@reddit

It should be on a weekend though. I'm half engaged in our debate now

Seriously, don't you have a job or something to do with your life?

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Educate-Me-Now@reddit

Hybrid and flexible gif

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CondensedHappiness@reddit

Do you have a single credible source for ANY of what you've said?

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Educate-Me-Now@reddit

Nothing I said needs sources because these are established historical facts. It’s funny how you demand ‘credible sources’ while clinging to a one-sided, horse-blindered view of history. Pretending everything must fit neatly into modern Bulgarian or Greek national narratives isn’t ‘truth-seeking’—it’s just historical cherry-picking.

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CondensedHappiness@reddit

You are a lost cause my friend. You and a big portion of your countries compatriots need to do some serious self-reflection and then think about joining the EU. Bulgaria or Greece are your last problems

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Educate-Me-Now@reddit

Self-reflection is always good advice—you might want to try it yourself. If Bulgaria and Greece are our ‘last problems,’ maybe they should stop obsessing over our history.

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Kalypso_95@reddit

Alexander III of Macedon (Ancient Greek: Ἀλέξανδρος, romanized: Aléxandros; 20/21 July 356 BC – 10/11 June 323 BC), most commonly known as Alexander the Great,[c] was a king of the ancient Greek kingdom of Macedon.[

Samuel of Bulgaria

Samuel (also Samoil[2] or Samuil; Bulgarian: Самуил, pronounced [sɐmuˈiɫ]; Macedonian: Самоил/Самуил,[3][4] pronounced [samɔˈiɫ/sɐmuˈiɫ]; Old Church Slavonic: Самоилъ; died 6 October 1014) was the Tsar (Emperor) of the First Bulgarian Empire from 997 to 6 October 1014.[5] From 977 to 997, he was a general under Roman I of Bulgaria,[6] the second surviving son of Emperor Peter I of Bulgaria

Georgi Nikolov Delchev (Bulgarian: Георги Николов Делчев; Macedonian: Ѓорѓи Николов Делчев; 4 February 1872 – 4 May 1903), known as Gotse Delchev or Goce Delčev (Гоце Делчев),[note 1] was a prominent Macedonian Bulgarian revolutionary (komitadji)

You were saying?

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Educate-Me-Now@reddit

You just copy-pasted Wikipedia as if that proves anything. Alexander lived in an era without nation-states, Samuil ruled a multiethnic empire, and Goce Delčev identified with the Macedonian struggle. Slapping ‘Greek’ or ‘Bulgarian’ next to their names doesn’t change history—it just exposes your shallow understanding of it.

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Kalypso_95@reddit

There were Greeks in ancient times you know. Macedonians were Greeks too and still are. There are of course the Slavic Macedonians today, who are a different group than Greek Macedonians and only took this name because of the region they live in

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Educate-Me-Now@reddit

Oh, there were Greeks in ancient times, sure. But those ancient Greeks weren’t a homogenous group—they were different city-states, each with its own identity. Macedonia, as a region, wasn’t just ‘Greek’ in the modern sense; it was diverse, with people from different backgrounds. Samuil ruled a multiethnic empire, not a ‘Greek’ or ‘Bulgarian’ one.

The Macedonian struggle isn’t about geography, it’s about autonomy and self-determination. Delčev didn’t fight for Bulgarian or Greek nationalism—he fought for Macedonian independence. And let’s not forget, modern Greeks have Slavic genes, while Macedonians trace their roots to Iron Age Macedonians. DNA tells its own story, and it's not just about 'the region they lived in.'

None of us is pure, and this obsession with assuming historical purity is disgusting.

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Kalypso_95@reddit

modern Greeks have Slavic genes, while Macedonians trace their roots to Iron Age Macedonians.

But of course, modern Greeks have 100% Slavic, Turkish and Albanian dna while Slavic Macedonians come directly from the balls of Alexander!!

Your source being "I made it tf up" as always!

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Educate-Me-Now@reddit

Of course we have something to prove when our identity is constantly being questioned. It is Greek nationalists who are out of touch with reality through believing they are Zeus's descendants and that a border which never existed somehow makes them different from their neighbors.

If you look at the facts and reflect inside you'll come understand that you're bullying a people for no reason.

And this:

But of course, modern Greeks have 100% Slavic, Turkish and Albanian dna while Slavic Macedonians come directly from the balls of Alexander!!

Is not something I have claimed or am claiming :) Not sure why you would twist my words like that if your intentions were "well" :)

I'm out here defending my identity with all the facts while you're spitting saliva, like a "True European" 👏

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Kalypso_95@reddit

And let’s not forget, modern Greeks have Slavic genes, while Macedonians trace their roots to Iron Age Macedonians.

Your words, not mine. You can surely see how this sounds right? And no source for your claims of course. I guess it's something your great-great- great-great-grandfather who IdEnTiFiEd As A mAcEdOnIaN told you in person

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Educate-Me-Now@reddit

How does it sound? I’m pointing out facts, and for some reason, you’re denying them. Please explain why. Both Greeks and Macedonians share a fair amount of Slavic and Iron Age DNA. I can’t understand why this is so hard to comprehend. People lived differently before modern political institutions took over. DNA shows us that history wasn’t all about wars and destruction (even though those are the events that were documented), but rather that love created something beautiful.

It’s only because of modern nationalistic politics that I have to wait for hours at an imaginary border for absolutely no reason. And worse, I’m not allowed to pass if I wish to simply be Macedonian—not North or South.

Macedonia’s history is intertwined with both Greece and Bulgaria, but they need to wake up to the fact that it belongs to neither, and that its existence as a separate people in the modern age has surpassed 100 years.

We can either cherish our mutual histories or war over them. I’d prefer the former.

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Kalypso_95@reddit

It sounds like Nazi narrative. I don't think any other nation cares about dna so much. Imagine if Turks were claiming that they're Hittites because they have some "IrOn AgE hItTitE dNa" and renamed themselves to Hittites. Doesn't it sound ridiculous to you? Well, that's exactly what you're doing. You should accept that you took that name because of the region you MIGRATED in instead of talking about some percentage of your dna being paleobalkanic, which might not even be Macedonian but Illyrian, Thracian, Paeonian, whatever. That's not how you'll justify your name, it just screams of inferiority complex

Besides, DNA isn't important for a national identity, but language, religion, culture etc

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Educate-Me-Now@reddit

You’re inventing absurd scenarios instead of addressing the actual argument. Nobody is saying identity is purely about DNA, but it does provide insight into historical continuity. Meanwhile, Macedonians have been identifying as such for well over a century, yet you insist on rewriting that. If self-determination only applies when it suits your narrative, then there’s nothing left to discuss.

[-]

So… like DNA? The fact that modern Greeks carry Slavic genes, while Macedonians still have genetic ties to Iron Age Macedonians?

Here’s the real difference: one group was raised with anti-Slavic sentiments and forced language purifications under dictators, while the other wasn’t. Can you guess which is which?

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XenophonSoulis@reddit

No, like existing written sources continuously since the antiquity. As for the dictatorships, that's quite a strong comment for someone whose national identity exists because a dictator invented it.

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Educate-Me-Now@reddit

Ah, I see we’re dodging the DNA topic entirely—wonder why.

And a dictator ‘invented’ Macedonian identity? Who exactly? Pulevski, who wrote about a distinct Macedonian identity in the 19th century? Goce Delčev, who fought for Macedonian autonomy before Bulgaria or Greece even acknowledged it? Or are you just repeating the same recycled claim without thinking?

Meanwhile, actual Greek identity was systematically reshaped under Metaxas, who banned Slavic names, languages, and even forced Greek-sounding last names onto people. But sure, tell me again whose identity was ‘invented’ by a dictator.

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XenophonSoulis@reddit

I'm not dodging any topic. I'm ignoring a systematic propaganda attempt.

As for the rest, are you aware of Tito?

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gounatos@reddit

Yeah no sorry, you are not getting in the EU.

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Educate-Me-Now@reddit

With the current opinion of the world on it, I should be proud of that, but it is saddening.

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gounatos@reddit

It's OK. You have hundreds of thousands of years of proud macedonian history to make you feel better🙃

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Educate-Me-Now@reddit

Yes. That and very solid relationships with the US and Russia as well as most EU and Brexit countries as well.

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CondensedHappiness@reddit

If identity can’t be erased, why does Bulgaria demand constitutional changes, historical revisions, and even lobby in Albania to manufacture ‘Bulgarians’ for political leverage? You claim open discussion, yet Bulgaria blocks Macedonia’s EU path unless it submits to Bulgarian narratives.

No one can change your identity, stop being ridiculous. Historical revisions is something your country badly needs, maybe thats why its a condition?

As for ‘historical theft,’ every figure in Skopje’s city center is part of Macedonia’s history. Goce Delčev, the Ilinden revolutionaries, Tsar Samuil, and Alexander the Great all played crucial roles in Macedonian heritage. Just because Bulgaria and Greece claim them too doesn’t erase Macedonia’s historical continuity.

Even you yourself here do not admit that these people were Bulgarian or Greek. Just that "we claim them". No one claims them, they themselves said they are Bulgarian/Greek. Stop being dishonest and start respecting dead people's right to self-determination

Instead of forcing identity changes and using political blackmail, maybe Bulgaria should focus on respecting Macedonians in its own borders—who, unlike the so-called ‘oppressed’ Bulgarians in Macedonia, actually had to fight legal battles just to be recognized.

Complete lies, the only "right" those people who number less than 100 and are ALL old pensioneer drunks (I wonder why?) that is being denied is, registering a political group based on ethnicity. Thats it. Call the pope!! Right?

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Educate-Me-Now@reddit

"No one can change your identity, stop being ridiculous. Historical revisions is something your country badly needs, maybe that's why it's a condition?"

If history needs ‘revision,’ why does Bulgaria need political blackmail instead of academic debate? Maybe because the truth doesn’t fit its narrative?

"Even you yourself here do not admit that these people were Bulgarian or Greek. Just that ‘we claim them’. No one claims them, they themselves said they are Bulgarian/Greek."

Goce Delčev fought for Macedonian autonomy, Tsar Samuil ruled an empire overlaping modern Macedonia, and Alexander lived before modern nations existed. Their identities aren’t defined by Bulgarian wishful thinking.

"Complete lies, the only ‘right’ those people who number less than 100 and are ALL old pensioneer drunks (I wonder why?) that is being denied is, registering a political group based on ethnicity."

If the Macedonian minority in Bulgaria is so irrelevant, why has Bulgaria been condemned multiple times by the European Court of Human Rights for repressing them?

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CondensedHappiness@reddit

If history needs ‘revision,’ why does Bulgaria need political blackmail instead of academic debate? Maybe because the truth doesn’t fit its narrative?

It has already been tried with the joint historical commission that your country, first agreed to some changes, then backed off and shut it down. There is almost no academic debate to be had, as your country's claims are outright lies with 0 proof.

Goce Delčev fought for Macedonian autonomy, Tsar Samuil ruled an empire overlaping modern Macedonia, and Alexander lived before modern nations existed. Their identities aren’t defined by Bulgarian wishful thinking.

Their identities are defined by THEMSELVES. THEY THEMSELVES SAID what they were, why does your country simply not accept their right to self-determination? It is very disrespectful

If the Macedonian minority in Bulgaria is so irrelevant, why has Bulgaria been condemned multiple times by the European Court of Human Rights for repressing them?

Because they found a loop hole to abuse the system, by insisting to sign up a political party ONLY for North Macedonians. Bulgaria does not recognize ethnic political parties. That is it. That is all, anything else you say are simply lies .

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JarJarBingChilling@reddit

If your identity can be “erased” because of a mere veto by a neighbouring country in joining a bloc, then you guys need to seriously ask yourself just how secure you are in your identity. Macedonia is Macedonia and Macedonians are Macedonians, which was the first country to recognise your nation’s independence?

Don’t expect us to be happy and allow you in the same bloc as us when your nation systematically tries to rewrite OUR shared, up to a point, history. If Macedonians need to conjure up myths & appropriate important Bulgarian figures to fluff up their identity then that is actually very sad and does more harm for you than good.

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Educate-Me-Now@reddit

Oh, the irony—crying about ‘rewriting history’ while demanding an entire country change its identity to fit your version of the past. If your history was factual, you wouldn’t need vetoes, forced commissions, and identity blackmail.

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JarJarBingChilling@reddit

Please point out the irony and where I demand you change your identity given I literally said that Macedonia is Macedonia and Macedonians are… Macedonians.

And yet again you show you’re here in bad faith, completely disregarding the point being made and having a victim complex. It’s pathetic.

You could say that for Yane Sandanski at a certain level but not for Гоце Делчев.
Then we Bulgarians could call ourselves proud Romans.

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Gunnerpain98@reddit

Why on earth would we let a country that bullies our ethnic minorities in the EU?

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thetalesoftheworld@reddit

Oh, I'm sorry, what minorities are being bullied? Maybe you're confusing the Macedonian minorities that are not even allowed to express themselves as Macedonian, and have won a dozen cases in the court of law on the matter?

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Gunnerpain98@reddit

There is no Macedonian nationality in Bulgaria, but rather a geographic region of the country much like the northwestern region, Thracian regions and Dobrudzha. Ask any of the people who live there what nationality they belong to and they will all say Bulgarian. In NM it’s completely different because there are Bulgarians who identify as such and even if you like to ignore those accidents that happen to them on a regular basis over there as a result we know and we won’t forget and NM’s open refusal to recognise their existence is proof of that

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thetalesoftheworld@reddit

- There are around 2 mil. Macedonian in BG;

- There are around 3 thousand Bulgarian in MK. Freely stated as such in the census.

What accidents? The criminal that got paid by your government to play a victim, to cry in front of your cameras to feed you propaganda? And got an apartment in Sofia in return. Funny, few years back he was super-ultra Macedonian.

After him some few others that were running from our law tried the same "trick", but your government already did its point and wasn't feeling like spending more money on that.

Sorry to burst yours and everyone's bubble, but, that's that. And, I don't really care if you're one of the paid ones.

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Gunnerpain98@reddit

As I said those “Macedonians” in BG are BULGARIANS with family ties to the Blagoevgrad region and different regions in NM before Tito and Stalin created your artificial state. As for the second part of your comment I’m just gonna ignore it because it’s way too idiotic

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thetalesoftheworld@reddit

"Created"? I'm sorry, how?

There is no debate. They were Bulgarians.

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thetalesoftheworld@reddit

Leave them bots, they're either paid or genuine coo-coo's that regularly post here just waiting for post like this. And the OP is one of the worse ones.

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JarJarBingChilling@reddit

There is nothing to debate when it comes to Goce Delcev or Simeon. The facts are very clear and they have never and will never back up the delusions some Macedonians have about their identity.

And you don’t need to be in the same bloc in order to have a conversation/debate…

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RegionSignificant977@reddit

What about Goce Delchev?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtoYyJK9Y7k

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Educate-Me-Now@reddit

Bulgaria demands recognition of a 'Bulgarian conscience' in Macedonia while refusing to recognize a Macedonian identity at all. That’s not diplomacy—that’s historical revisionism. If good neighborly behavior means erasing our existence, then maybe the problem isn’t us.

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herakababy@reddit

I don't know of any official demands of macedonians in Bulgaria to have their identity recognised. Or it actually being an issue since macedonians in Bulgaria are roughly 1000 people and on the last census they were able to identify as such. Unlike bulgarians in NM.

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Educate-Me-Now@reddit

Macedonians in Bulgaria had to fight legal battles for decades just to be acknowledged as a minority, and Bulgaria still refuses to recognize them. Meanwhile, Bulgaria demands that Macedonia rewrite its history and constitution to include Bulgarians. The hypocrisy is staggering.

On top of that, Bulgaria lobbied and bribed Macedonians in Albania to register as Bulgarians in exchange for benefits, inflating numbers to push a political narrative. If Bulgarians in Macedonia supposedly face discrimination, why does Bulgaria need to manufacture Bulgarians elsewhere?

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herakababy@reddit

Literally all your points are straight up lies and I should not be encouraging you to expand on them but I will do it anyway.

Show me credible source where it's mentioned macedonians in Bulgaria fighting for their status as minority.

Considering NM history is based on straight up lies demanding them to change it to the real history is the normal thing to do. The fact that it will be hard for macedonians to change what they were brainwashed to believing in the school curriculum is going to be hard, but mistakes have consequences and you can blame your serbian overlords for that.

Bulgarians in Albania literally exist before there is macedonian identity and the claim our government gives money to Albania is the most delusional thing I read this week, considering recent Trump statements. I would also like proof Bulgaria lobbied and bribed Albanian officials for this. If you can't find any this claim goes straight in to the anti-bulgarian rhetoric pot your politicians spew for votes.

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Educate-Me-Now@reddit

The European Court of Human Rights has ruled multiple times against Bulgaria for denying Macedonians minority rights. If they weren’t real, why does Bulgaria keep losing cases?

If Macedonian history was truly ‘lies,’ Bulgaria wouldn’t need political blackmail to change it—academic debate would be enough. But it isn’t, because the facts don’t support Bulgaria’s claims.

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So you think that doing exactly the same thing would be the optimal thing? Gotcha, the balkan way.

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CondensedHappiness@reddit

Show me a single comment saying how you are "Tatars" or that your "women are who***" or your favorite "dve crveni"

Greece made great sacrifices to enter the EU and the Eurozone, same as Bulgaria, Romania, etc. Why would NMK be any different? You don't get to do your own thing all the time.

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thetalesoftheworld@reddit

Oh, really? What sacrifices exactly Greece made?

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CypriotGreek@reddit

What sacrifices did Greece make to enter the EU? Well, for starters, Greece had to completely overhaul its economy, liberalize markets, and meet strict financial and political criteria. It wasn’t just handed EU membership, there were years of reforms, painful adjustments, and aligning with European standards, long before enjoying any benefits. Maybe North Macedonia should try that approach instead of demanding the world conform to their version of history.

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thetalesoftheworld@reddit

WOW, OMG, such sacrifices! How painful must have been that for you! Here we were, doing absolutely "nothing" for the past decades! Except having all conditions met years ago, just for the next year to have some other "condition". That's why the people want the negotiations to stop. But, that'll be too much money lost for the politicians.

Oh, BTW, thank you so much for making us starve to death in the 90's, literally for us simply being Macedonian. I remember that period very clearly! How very democratic from you!

Also, still waiting for the apology from the genocide/ethnocide you've made, plus for taking the people's properties, and separating mothers from their babies and sending them godknows where on train wagons. Did I forgot torturing kids at schools for speaking Macedonian? None of this is ancient history! It's very recent.

Wait a minute, weren't you the one few days ago going all philosophical about "what may or may not have happened millennia ago should not affect us today"? That "we should all grow up" Or something in that style? Don't remember the exact words, but it was definitely you.

Well, why don't you act upon your own words?

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CypriotGreek@reddit

The classic victim complex in full force.

Greece had to meet actual economic and political criteria to join the EU, not sit around blaming everyone else for their problems. As for the 90s, maybe direct that anger toward your own leadership’s failures instead of, accusing me of genocide? Throwing around accusations of genocide and ethnocide while demanding EU membership is a bold strategy, no wonder the negotiations keep stalling.

Why are you even changing the topic and suddenly blaming me for genocide? That’s a pretty wild leap. If you can’t stick to the discussion without throwing around absurd accusations, it just shows how weak your argument really is.

Also, if your idea of diplomacy is dredging up exaggerated grievances and playing the eternal victim, it’s pretty clear why the EU isn’t exactly rolling out the red carpet. But hey, keep telling yourself it’s everyone else’s fault, I’m sure that’ll get you far, Bulgaria Genocided you, Greece Genocided you, Albanians Genocided you, Germans Genocided you, everyone Genocided you.

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thetalesoftheworld@reddit

"Accusations"? Oh, such a step forward, now you're denying what happened. Wow, how democratic!

But, anyways, I didn't expected anything else.

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CypriotGreek@reddit

Denying what happened? No, just calling out the exaggeration. Greece kicked out Bulgarian Ohrana agents and communists ( the enemy side of the war, who LOST) which, by the way, also included plenty of Greeks. That’s called fighting a civil war, not committing genocide. But I get it... playing the eternal victim is easier than admitting your side was supporting forces trying to tear the country apart.

But keep rewriting history, if it makes you feel better.

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thetalesoftheworld@reddit

Haha, who's rewriting history? Not us! You're doing what you usually do: take a bit of what happened, and warp an entire new story around it, by making what actually happened void!

What, are you going to say there weren't people sent to Ios and given laxatives to "cleanse their unwanted nationality", then made to crawl over barbed wire?

There weren't "listeners" that walked house to house listening if anyone spoke Macedonian? There were babies left without mothers because they were heard talking to them in Macedonian and sent to jail because of it!

The kids were not beaten, tongues pierced with needles, or put hot paprica on them, if they spoke Macedonian?

Were not Macedonian villages bombed and people butchered?

Or, this is just a product of a very vivid shared imagination?!?

Or, maybe you're just angry because you know I'm right. You just can't stand me being right.

You can't stand me being Macedonian. You can't stand me existing. Sorry. That's a "you problem".

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CypriotGreek@reddit

None of what you’re claiming is true. It’s simple Greece expelled many Slavic-speaking people because they were a security risk and were aligned with the Communists, who lost the civil war. You people weren’t innocent; you were complicit opportunists, involved in abhorrent acts against Greece under both your Bulgarian "compatriots" and the Communists. This wasn’t ethnic cleansing, but a consequence of war and alliances. Stop rewriting history to fit a story that never existed.

And for a little story of my own, my grandfather had 2 sisters when he was born in the 30s in a small village called Eratyra, in western Macedonia. He remembers how nearly every week the Slav communists would come down from the mountains and steal water, food, and kids from the local villages, one day while one of his sisters was out on an errand, the Communists captured her, and she was never seen again. We are guessing that she's probably dead by now, this happened to over 40.000 children.

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thetalesoftheworld@reddit

Well, what's stopping me from saying that you're lying? Nothing. How would you felt if I said that you lie? Like I'm feeling right now reading all of your BS.

You're still a person who hates me for being what I am. FYI, EVERYTHING I've said is true. To the last word. I couldn't care less over your opinion or feeling about it. Do you think you have a sob story? Huh, where do you think I have all of these details?

You're still a person that doesn't have a problem with condemning an entire nation over things that took place in over 2 millenia ago, are very likely heavily redacted/edited/manipulated/rewritten, whatever. Heavily debatable, to say the least. Even if not, so what? Doesn't change the fact we're Macedonian.

You're still a person who denies atrocities being committed. Trying to bring down in any way possible. You simply can't (or won't) see the bigger picture.

krokadul@reddit

It's silly. They could join easily.

But there are some forces at play - namely Russia and its proxy Serbia that don't want that to happen.

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Stverghame@reddit

Serbia isn't meddling into North Macedonia's EU process, what the fuck are you talking about? What else are you going to blame us for?🤡

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Bulgarians can say shit like this, and no one bats an eye. When Serbs say that Montenegrins and Bosniaks are Serbs, everyone freaks out.

Definitely a double standard. lol

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Gunnerpain98@reddit

Everyone definitely bats an eye
Serbia not only has a recognised ethnic minority in BiH but an entire mini country within it
When you are an EU member you have the luxury to have demands

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Sunnipaev_000@reddit

Really? When has Bulgaria ever been condemned for trying to expand its territory in both World Wars? And people say it's only Serbia that has territorial ambitions.

And I don't think anyone in the EU gives a shit about Bulgaria's opinion. It's the most useless EU member. You guys can't even get a functioning government and head to the polls every two months. GTFO. lmao

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Gunnerpain98@reddit

If no one gives a shit about Bulgaria’s the NM would have been an EU member by now.

What about Serbia’s government by the way. Are you happy with how functional it is? ;)

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jasamsamovagabundoo@reddit

There's absolutely no point in debating with him—ever. He's an idiot who lives in Canada, completely detached from reality, which is exactly why he supports the current government in Serbia. Every single one of his comments literally makes me sick.

He went full schizo in this entire comment section, just like he always does on every topic. I just want to say that we completely distance ourselves from this idiot, regardless of the subject.

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Sunnipaev_000@reddit

Yeah, that's called uninimous voting. Doesn't mean your input on important matters on an EU-level are considered. What matters are what France and Germany have to say. Not Bulgaria.

I care about my history not being stolen, duh.

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Sunnipaev_000@reddit

Wah wah wah. “My HiStOrY!! We wuz Thracians, not Slavs!”

Yeah. And I’m sure Rome was built by Bulgarians.

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Targoniann@reddit

Wah wah wah. “My HiStOrY!! We wuz Thracians, not Slavs!”

PlamenIB@reddit

Love- this is not X and you should learn how to use “lol”. And a Serbian to evaluate Bulgaria- please. When we start chasing 6 yo girls to have “little chetniks” your evaluation will matter more than a drunk p**o in a pub. At least try to bring something here.

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Sunnipaev_000@reddit

Bulgaria has a higher rate of reported rapes than Serbia, so… people should look out for you guys. lmao

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1268551/sexual-violence-rate-europe-country/

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PlamenIB@reddit

Oh you took a note and we are on “LMAO”- now you have to change the placement. And I am talking about Bosnia. Unfortunately my neighbor was a victim of people like you but I guess you are proud of that as always.

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Sunnipaev_000@reddit

I mean, Bulgarians are more rapey thanks Serbs according to statistics, so I think you guys need to have a conversation about that. Go talk to Boiko. I heard he’s in-office today.

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PlamenIB@reddit

I love how you pretend that Bosnia didn’t happen and you support ped*s. But yeah- Boyko is here and he will call Vicic soon I guess. I am a little disappointed- where is FACT and LOL? I feel offended. If you don’t use it is not considered fact.

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RegionSignificant977@reddit

Fun fact! Macedonians also fought for expansion of Bulgarian territory! Here you are, in your language!

Током балканских ратова вође ВМОРО-а (и лијевог и десног крила) придружили су се Македонско-једренском добровољачком корпусу и борили се заједно са Бугарском војском. Други, попут Санданског, помагали су бугарској војсци са својим четама, док су неки продрли чак до регије Касторија (Костур) у југозападној Македонији.[45] У Другом балканском рату чете ВМОРО-а бориле су се против Грка и Срба у првим линијама фронта, али су касније разбијене и протјеране. Петар Чаулев био је један од вођа Охридско-дебарског устанака који су заједно организовали ВМОРО и албански качаци у западној Македонији.

English Wikipedia correctly stating he was Serbian: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Marko

Bulgaria lifted the veto in June 2022. Since then, for the last three years, no veto has held up North Macedonia. They simply need to adhere to the document they signed.

It had veto from Greece over the national flag and the name since 1993. The flag was changed in 1995 and the name dispute was resolved in 2018 after leftist government ousted the nationalists who rules for 11 years and we're against any agreement.

Also in 2017 agreement with Bulgaria was reached. Both agreements are deposited in the negotiation framework for starting accession negotiations for which the ethno nationalists party that is ruling North Macedonia is against.

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petahthehorseisheah@reddit

All they have to do is not have double standards to their neighbor

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zdubargo@reddit

I wonder what double standards do they have?

Bulgarians are essentially denying them their nationhood. And apparently, they don’t want to be Bulgarians. Let them be whatever they want to be, no? Especially now that they solved the name issue with Greece. They changed their country’s name!

They’re a young nation, and need something to build their identity on. Constant claims that they are Bulgarians (or Serbs, Albanians or Martians for that matter) will only make them more resentful and certainly less cooperative.

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CondensedHappiness@reddit

Bulgarians are essentially denying them their nationhood. And apparently, they don’t want to be Bulgarians. Let them be whatever they want to be, no? Especially now that they solved the name issue with Greece. They changed their country’s name!

Denying them from outright lying about our national heroes - "Bulgarians are essentially denying them their nationhood" rofl, get the hell outta here with that victim BS

They’re a young nation, and need something to build their identity on. Constant claims that they are Bulgarians (or Serbs, Albanians or Martians for that matter) will only make them more resentful and certainly less cooperative.

So we should just let them steal our history and turn it against us? How come??? You can build a new identity sure, but dont do it on your neighbours account. Thats not what a good neighbour does.

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zdubargo@reddit

Firstly, ‘victim bs’ - I’m not even Macedonian g, I’m a Serb. Honestly, idgaf about either NMK or Bulgaria, I’m saying this as a passive bystander.

You can find this history stealing shit all over the Balkans. Croats claiming Tesla. Some Serbs claiming Skenderbeg. Now Albanians are inventing some bs that our churches in Kosovo were actually originally Albanian??? Shit like this is common in the Balkans. Also idk what part of history are they ‘claiming’? Samuil? Goce Delčev?

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CondensedHappiness@reddit

None of the other countries on the balkans (possibly the world) do it to the level that NMacedonia does it.

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zdubargo@reddit

Can you please provide some examples? I honestly don’t get this beef between N. Macedonia and Bulgaria. From what I did gather though, Bulgaria claims that their language is a dialect of Bulgarian, that the people are essentially confused Bulgarians and tsar Samuil was Bulgarian (which basically anyone who heard of Basil II can agree with)?

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CondensedHappiness@reddit

Its not just tsar Samuil, its a sizeable chunk of Bulgaria's medieval history, then in the more modern times they claim VMRO and nearly all of the Bulgarian national heroes, who mind you, they themselves have said they are Bulgarian.

delusional

>We demand EU institutions and the European Parliament to respect our basic human right – the right of SELF-DETERMINATION! We demand European Parliament, NATO and United Nations to respect the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and to stop the discrimination against us!

>You can not force us, we to change our name and our identity. We have dignity and the international law is on our side!

And it is actually dangerous. 2 months ago an australian guy with north macedonian heritage paid a friend of mine to translate to greek a book he wrote of why they are the true inheritors of alexander. And the amount of Delusion was unimaginable. I will only say this , he claimed that there only 3 ancient people that have stayed true to their origin: Chinese, Egyptian and of course "Macedonian".

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JarJarBingChilling@reddit

Egyptian

stayed true to their origin (whatever tf that means)

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHAHAHAHHA

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perverted_sperm@reddit

No

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walleryana@reddit

No.

Also, imagine accusing Bulgaria of imperialistic behaviour in 2025, as some commenters are doing. You either have no idea what that means, or you have been sleeping on Bulgarian politics post '89.

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PlamenIB@reddit

Wow the victim of the Balkans. The pure- blooded cousin of Alexander the Great! Pure as a morning dew! Everyone wants to take a peace of that haven! Their police have never beaten people because they are bulgarians, they don’t call us facist, mongols and tatars. They are so respectful to the heritage of every neighboring countryso they decided to claim it. They totally DO NOT destroy historical heritage in order to justify some made- up theories! Their PM never used Bulgarian for its campaign nor mentions us in every single interview and DEFINITELY did not call us names. That poor VICTIM of the Balkans. On- topic again- EU doesn’t want the next Orban my love. Those countries are not stupid so that’s way they sign YOUR “French Proposal”- YOU were the ones who wish for it and now you cry on every single post.

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Morinmeth@reddit

No.

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ayayayamaria@reddit

I think all western Balkans will join the EU... someday. It's a good way to prove the EU unity they're always talking about and counter Russian influence, but oh well.