Article predicting how America could collapse by 2025.
Posted by Empty_Peak_668@reddit | collapse | View on Reddit | 320 comments
Posted by Empty_Peak_668@reddit | collapse | View on Reddit | 320 comments
Pitk1932@reddit
As Eisenhower warned the American People,the military industrial complex‘s plutocrats have their own self-serving foreign policy agenda to initiate wars to maximize their profits regardless of the costs to the American Public.
Pitk1932@reddit
The steady decline of the U.S. dollar forced Trump to introduce major tariffs but leave unaddressed the root causes:costly wars since 1776,trillion dollar annual defence budgets,costly and largely unwanted military bases around the world and the high personal and addicted debt levels of the American public.
Negronomiconn@reddit
Everyone like "just pick up guns and fight. " a lot of us dont agree with our maga relatives or friends. But we aren't quite to the point of shooting them in the face yet. The right has weaponized our loved ones against us. We will get there, but it would literally be me vs my neighbors if we openly armed up. It will and would devolve rather quickly. But...I dont see a way out of this besides rising up.
GrumpyTom@reddit
“Riding a political tide of disillusionment and despair, a far-right patriot captures the presidency with thundering rhetoric, demanding respect for American authority and threatening military retaliation or economic reprisal. The world pays next to no attention as the American Century ends in silence.”
Prophetic.
RandomBoomer@reddit
My only disagreement would be with the "no attention" part. The world is indeed paying attention.
RedditTipiak@reddit
For now. But it can go only two ways: either it was full bluster and bullshit, the Mexico + Greenland + Panama stuff... hence death of credibility...
or... it just turns into an endless quagmire for next to nothing...
Either way, you Americans are fucked.
Taqueria_Style@reddit
It was always going to turn out this way because all we can do is argue over what is and is not perfect enough for us.
HWills612@reddit
Endless quagmire for nothing sounds like every moment of US involvement in stuff in my life
Majestic-Bowler-6184@reddit
Fuckin true, oi vey us.
InconspicuousWarlord@reddit
If the guy with the biggest gun starts having a mental breakdown right in front of you, you watch them as close as you can. Safer that way.
Master-Patience8888@reddit
You do what they are doing: run, take actions for your own safety, make alternate plans, and allow the US to isolate itself.
Taqueria_Style@reddit
Holy Luigi, adjuster of claims, pray for us peons, now and at the hour of our death.
anonymous_owlbear@reddit
*canadian laughing nervously
Runningoutofideas_81@reddit
Canada is a bad idea.
Master-Patience8888@reddit
Poor Canada and Mexico
dicklaurent97@reddit
especially when they are trying to annex other countries
cabalavatar@reddit
Like when your downstairs neighbour's house is on fire... Pretty soon, yours'll be on fire too.
wannaholler@reddit
I'd also disagree that the far right individual in question is a patriot
northrupthebandgeek@reddit
As patriotic as the Patriot Act.
dkorabell@reddit
He's definitely not a patriot, but still 51% seem to think he is.
Socialimbad1991@reddit
Definitely less than 51%
dkorabell@reddit
I'd like to think so, but 51% voted for him. And in a recent NBC poll, 51% said he was doing a good job.
AlwaysPissedOff59@reddit
Well, he IS doing a good job - at destroying the federal government.
anuthertw@reddit
"Patriot"
Thin_Ad_1846@reddit
Quite the opposite. He’s a traitor for any number of reasons.
GrumpyTom@reddit
Agreed, although I’m not sure we are there yet. Seems much of the world is now determined to get on without the US. At some point they may simply stop caring about American politics, realizing it no longer affects them.
RandomBoomer@reddit
Musk/Trump are deliberately trying to dismantle the Federal government, without any real understanding of just what it does. If they keep marauding at this rate, they will succeed.
The (former) U.S., just like the former Soviet Union, will shatter into smaller regions, at least four or five of them, as states band together for survival amid mutual interests. At that point, the rest of the world really can write off as a failed state.
Squalidhumor@reddit
Totally agree. They nave a plan to tear down the government but have no idea of, or plan for what will follow. They have no fear of the unanticated consequences that surely must follow and so have no plan to react to them. Of course, many consequences that they ignore can be anticipated. But they ignore them.
Due_Major5842@reddit
Keep dreaming.
Due_Major5842@reddit
Lol stay in denial, downvoters! Ain't no one coming out of this all peachy.
And for the record, anyone who's been acting like an absolute sociopath - all happy to see a whole nation of millions of souls about to suffer just because SOME of them may deserve it - deserves it too.
critch@reddit
As long as America has the biggest military and the most nukes, American Politics will always be paid attention to.
-Calm_Skin-@reddit
Doubtful by the end. Few people are watching Haiti.
AlwaysPissedOff59@reddit
Haiti is what we'll all eventually become, but with warlords, not "gangs", and drones. Lots and lots of drones. At least at the beginning.
lgodsey@reddit
No better way to unite disparate countries -- give them a common enemy.
Idiotic Trump is going out of his way to make us the villain. All he is doing is hastening our decline. I thought that as a man in my fifties, I would die in relative comfort, but the next decades will be ruinous.
I genuinely feel for the harsh privations young people will face in their lifetimes.
hds2019@reddit
These past few months/weeks I’ve looked at my nine year old sister knowing she’ll have to grow up in a failing state. Hell I’m 22 and I’ve just about given up any long term plans for my future. My generation gets to watch this world of plenty fall apart just as our lives begin with the complete awareness of what has been taken from us. What really broke my heart though was hearing my mom drunkenly admit to me that she didn’t want to bring another person into this terrible world, and regrets having her daughter. I hate this life and I mourn for what’s to soon follow.
dr-sq@reddit
Maybe you can still embrace the beauty and connections that remain. There are supportive, kind, and knowledgeable people around despite the dark clouds of ecological ruin and political mayhem. On good days I can feel some of the wonder and improbability of my life…it’s not enough to counteract the truth of our long term prognosis. Hard times to live in but I hope you don’t just hate your life.
chipsandsalsa3@reddit
But no one is coming to help.
ty_xy@reddit
It is paying attention but there nothing anyone can do.
unknown_anonymous81@reddit
The world needed America in WW2 and we fought the war against Nazis and fascism.
America now needs the world to help America save it from itself.
Silence while watching self destruction seems to be the most likely outcome.
Faplord99917@reddit
Goes to show. People will never care even when they had atrocities committed against them. They have to have it happen now again. Empathy is dead.
AlwaysPissedOff59@reddit
The fundies are trying to kill empathy. See Allie Beth Stuckey (well, don't, but he "book" Toxic Empathy is an example).
They want empathy dead because it's much easier for someone to kill another human if the person being killed is not perceived to be human.
Hot-Acanthisitta5237@reddit
This always happens when an empire is about to fall. It implodes on the inside. My question is, will the EU collapse as well when America does?
235711@reddit
Yep, this is collapse of the west and rise of the east.
Hot-Acanthisitta5237@reddit
I can see that but don't discount the rise of the south i.e. Africa.
brokerceej@reddit
We entered WW2 very late and compared to Europe we didn't really fight the war. Our logistics and manufacturing was pretty essential and important to the victory. But we didn't like, single handedly fight on the ground against fascism. That's what they teach us in school, but it isn't what actually happened.
The world will not save us. We deserve this for allowing a fascist convicted felon and his best friend Elon Dumbfuck Musk to be elected and take power. The world is going to turn their backs on us and the age of America the super power will be officially over. There's probably no coming back from this. Russia and China will take over our sphere of influence.
Bluest_waters@reddit
WTF are you talking about??? we didn't fight on the ground???
Bro, Germany and Italy were full fascist. Spain was fascist and mostly stayed out of it, which is basically aiding Hitler. The French folded and kissed Nazi ass, yes there were French freedom fighters but most of France was Vichy. Europe caved to Hitler. That is what happened.
Didn't fight on the ground?? WTF history book did you read?
Majestic-Bowler-6184@reddit
They said we didn't "single-handedly fight fascism". Sure we fought them. Both my grandparents fought for the Allies. But American school & culture propaganda would have you think we did everything, largely alone.
We did not. We didn't bleed in Gallipoli, and we Did enter the war late, when the main combatants were bloodied and we were fresh...and I will add that America in the 1940s was rather fascist, just not nazi fascist. Nazi fascism here waited until 2025.
Socialimbad1991@reddit
There was a nazi movement here too but people at their demonstrations got the piss beaten out of them by Jewish-American mobsters and they sort of just fizzled out as a result. True story, look it up. We could use some of that spirit today...
Ironically Adolph took a lot of his inspiration from the US treatment of slaves and indigenous people. Idk if we were ever completely non-villainous but WWII was probably a high point.
slvrcobra@reddit
Not to mention we didn't have to deal with the Nazis right off the heels of the devastation of WWI.
billmurraysprostate@reddit
Funny how you fail to mention the nation that was the single largest contributor to the fall of Nazi Germany.
brokerceej@reddit
Yes a conveniently forgotten fact in the US is that WW2 was won with Soviet blood. Sure, we provided them the equipment to do it later in the war, but they provided the manpower and they paid very dearly for it. The way we turned our backs on the Soviets after WW2 when relations were good and went back on all our promises to them because of a fear of communism directly led to the Cold War. We are the assholes in that situation too. We essentially created the circumstances that would eventually lead to the Russia of today by fucking over the soviets at the end of WW2. That’s not to say the Kremlin isn’t overtly evil and not responsible for their actions today, they are responsible and they are bad guys still. But my point is if we hadn’t have fucked them over, the world now would look pretty different I imagine.
That commenters reaction to my initial comment demonstrates well a core piece of the problem in America. Education is fucked. They put a nationalist spin on everything historical to make us seem like the heroes and most don’t care to question that or learn more for themselves. This is probably the principal reason for our democracy failing. The right wing has been defunding education and retconning history for so long to create a nationalist voter base with little care to question what they are told. The perfect electorate to usher in fascism without violence.
billmurraysprostate@reddit
🥇 here is the only award I have to give this comment. Well put.
Gryphon0468@reddit
Soviets would have been fucked without the material support of the USA.
Positronic_Matrix@reddit
Your writing is imbecilic. Elevate your discourse.
collapse-ModTeam@reddit
Hi, Positronic_Matrix. Thanks for contributing. However, your comment was removed from /r/collapse for:
Please refer to our subreddit rules for more information.
You can message the mods if you feel this was in error, please include a link to the comment or post in question.
The_GASK@reddit
USA schools, including unis, are really nationalist propaganda mills that create individuals incapable of understanding history or logic. But I guess praying and chanting the hymn every day creates obedient subjects.
They know 2-3 "facts" about WWII, wrapped in nationalism, whitewashed and glorified, and never feel the need to look further.
alphaxion@reddit
Let's be honest, here. The US has been a selfish ally for so many decades.
Even during WW2, that resulted in one of the single largest transfers of wealth in history as the UK handed over so much of its gold reserves to buy supplies from the US. It's why the Lend-Lease Act was passed, to make sure the UK could keep buying supplies from the US to continue its war efforts (since the US wasn't officially in the war at this time). It took until the 2010s before the UK had finally paid off its WW2 debts to the US.
When the UK nuclear weapons research was handed over to the US to complete under the agreement that all would be shared, the US went back on that.
Even in the modern day, where trade agreements and extradition treaties are often hilariously one-way or the US will just refuse to comply.
The US has been making this bed for a very long time.
lavapig_love@reddit
In the European Theater, no. The U.S. war effort was one of many.
In the Pacific Theater, things were a little different. The U.S. was one of many, but it was also the biggest and main effort in a lot of areas and ways. The Manhattan Project and the subsequent nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki and victory of tge U.S. shaped humanity in ways we still don't appreciate now.
Manga and anime formed many of their signature characteristics as a way to conserve resources like paper and ink in postwar Japan. These characteristics became refined and stylized over decades to help them become a signature cultural export, further refined by other inventions like the internet.
These are not Russian nor Chinese nor U.S. inventions. These were adapted and evolved to be modern Japanese. Same with many other things we take for granted now.
clumpymascara@reddit
When no Americans are standing up against this beyond sharing memes on social media, why the fuck do you expect any other nations to act?
NorthMathematician32@reddit
Because other nations could find themselves on the wrong end of our military and we have nuclear weapons.
clumpymascara@reddit
That's an argument against picking a fight with your leaders, not for it.
hadtopostholyshit@reddit
One of the dumbest and most incorrect points made on this sub. Fascism in Europe was defeated with British intelligence, American manufacturing, and Russian blood.
And what would anyone do to help us? Lincoln said it best (and I’m paraphrasing): if all the armies of Europe and Asia united, they could still not take a drink from the Ohio River by force. What is Europe or anyone going to do that we can’t do ourselves? We’re the ones who have to fix this mess. No white knight will ride in and save us from ourselves.
MonteryWhiteNoise@reddit
I just want to point out ... your comment is a perfect example of why the US is where it is.
We wrongly believed "US Exceptionalism" is an actual thing. It comes from a fantasy based notion of "individualism" branded in the American mindset. This leads us to beleive the nationalist rhetoric of MAGA/Red Scare/Remember The Maine/etc etc.
The US did not win WWII [360k dead all of which were soldiers]. The Soviets [27 million dead, 9m soldiers] defeated the Germans [roughly 7 million dead, 4mil soldiers].
They did this with a lot of US food, ammo and weapons, but it was their deterimination and blood which defeated the Nazis. Combined with some dumb luck in the form of bad strategic decision making of Hitler and his leadership.
Yes, the US played a crucial role in providing a distraction on the Western Front and provided crucial aid to the UK.
However the actual benefit the US provided was most importantly we engaged the Japanese in the Pacific -- without doing that Japan would have forced the Soviet Army to defend themselves in the East, and likely been defeated in detail by the Nazi's and Japan's combined attacks.
I'm not pro-Soviet, but history is clearly written the blood of its combatants.
But, as is always the case, the victor writes the history books taught in schools ...
YoSoyZarkMuckerberg@reddit
Meh, The Soviets did most of the heavy lifting to fight the nazis. 20 million casualties, and they captured Berlin, plus liberated concentration camps. It's nonsense to suggest America beat the Nazis in ww2. America only got involved in the 11th hour and even afterwards actively recruited, employed, and harbored many nazis.
HealthyWait2626@reddit
The Soviet war machine was funded and supplied by FDR and the US. The criticism of the US late entry to the war is still valid. Two things can be true at once. The US should have entered earlier but also the USSR defense would not have lasted as long without US support. Cynically, it was convenient for the US to have the USSR take the brunt of the conflict and then come in and claim victory towards the end.
Different-Library-82@reddit
No serious historical account claims that the US supplies were a decisive factor for the Soviet war effort, certainly not that they would have been overrun without it, as the chronology and numbers just don't support that. It wasn't insignificant, but it wasn't underpinning the entire Soviet war effort and if you believe that is true your understanding of the Eastern front is coming from US propaganda. Just look up the numbers of lend-lease and compare it to the industrial output of military equipment in the Soviet Union during the war.
HealthyWait2626@reddit
Stalin's War: A New History of World War II https://g.co/kgs/X3UYcMb
Different-Library-82@reddit
Everything I find from serious academics on McMeekin is quite harsh criticism, and even that he uses known fraudulent sources, denouncing him as a gifted writer pushing revisionist history and essentially being a propagandist. That his bibliography also includes a book trying to pin the first world war on tsarist Russia doesn't exactly lend him credibility.
I get why he has gotten standing ovations by the US press, but academically this appears to be at best weak speculation to write sensationalist books. At worst his critics are right, and this is actual propaganda.
HealthyWait2626@reddit
Propogandist for who? No one comes out looking good in his book. Revisionist I've heard but only in the sense that he tells "the other side" not that he is presenting false information. Can you point me to academic critique, most academic reviews I've seen have been more positive.
Different-Library-82@reddit
Well, this review by Mark Edele covers both the issues with his use of sources and derides it as propaganda: https://insidestory.org.au/better-to-lose-australia/
It's also included in this piece by Nina Khrushcheva, which also accuses McMeekin of manipulating his sources to fit his ideological narrative: https://www.project-syndicate.org/onpoint/stalin-putin-russia-relations-book-review-by-nina-l-khrushcheva-2021-05
From what I find, McMeekin appears like an academic lightweight compared to the publications from Edele and Khrushcheva. And writing revisionist narratives about well-known history is hardly a new strategy to sell books, but as with most academic work, sensational claims are usually reason to suspect creative use of the sources.
And to me it is very obviously drawing on US propaganda about Russia. Stalin according to McMeekin is, according to what you refer to regarding lend-lease combined with the accounts by Edel and Khrushcheva, simultaneously so vulnerable that he was utterly dependent on aid from the US and simultaneously so resourceful that he was always a step or two ahead of everyone. It's a classic tool in propaganda. He might not be kind on Roosevelt, but that doesn't mean his narrative about Russia doesn't fall in line with a very recognisable US perspective, which has been popular with many recent US administrations.
YoSoyZarkMuckerberg@reddit
An excellent comment you linked here.
Nebthtet@reddit
Yeah, cancer killer ebola. Ruzzians are worse than nazis were and caused more mistery and death. Both deserve to disappear forever.
YoSoyZarkMuckerberg@reddit
Frankly, you don't know what you're talking about.
Nebthtet@reddit
Shows how you people know nothing about Europe.
unknown_anonymous81@reddit
Meh, Albert Einstein was in America. Made the nuclear bomb before Germany.
A shit ton of dead Russians doesn’t take away from Americans contribution.
YoSoyZarkMuckerberg@reddit
Give credit where credit is due, yankee doodle.
unknown_anonymous81@reddit
Seems like you are taking things personal about a war that ended 80 years ago.
Would you like a Russian cookie for your personal war efforts?
It was “world war” in no way did I write America is the sole reason Germany was defeated.
I clearly said America came to help and now we need help. You want to debate historical WW2 semantics? Have fun, I am not interested anymore.
Leever5@reddit
Bro, we should take the world wars personally. Lots of us have parents or grandparents who had to fight. 80 years ago is not long ago, there are birds and lizards that live longer than that.
We should all be personally upset about war.
YoSoyZarkMuckerberg@reddit
Interesting response.
Anyway. You said:
And
I don't see the word "help" anywhere in your original comment.
unknown_anonymous81@reddit
What did I write that wasn’t true?
So the world didn’t need Americas help in WW2
We fought the war against Nazis and fascists
I think you are wanting to construct your own arguments and twist my words for your own entertainment. Have fun
YoSoyZarkMuckerberg@reddit
America may have fought against Nazis for a very brief time, but it wasn't to save the world from them. That's why America recruited, employed and harboured them afterwards. :) and America had its own nazi party before it entered the war.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_American_Bund
Now, President Musk does nazi salutes on live TV and openly courts the AdF.
I don't believe America was ever truly anti-nazi. Do you?
unknown_anonymous81@reddit
I am a dumb yankee this conversation is clearly too complex. You win…have fun..goodnight
YoSoyZarkMuckerberg@reddit
You seem to have become agitated at the mention of the Soviet contributions, and saying "a shit ton of dead russians" feels disrespectful to the millions of human lives lost in the war, almost as if you actually don't care that Russians sacrificed themselves fighting against the nazis and were killed in large numbers, including civilians, women and children by invading nazis. No nazi army invaded America and no American women and children were killed by nazis.
Asking if I want a Russian cookie feels like something out of a tantrum. You even completely disregarded what I said, pointing out America's hypocrisy in having nazis in America, before and after the war.
unknown_anonymous81@reddit
Thank you come again
YoSoyZarkMuckerberg@reddit
Sadly, I don't think the world is coming to save America, mate. Godspeed.
unknown_anonymous81@reddit
I completely agree. Good luck to you wherever you are as well.
seanx40@reddit
But the US paid for it. The US provided much of the food, fuel, and bullets. Planes, trucks, artillery. Medicine. The Soviets were more and 15 years behind technologically.
HolyShitIAmOnFire@reddit
The world did not save Germany from itself. It saved the rest of the world from Germany. There's no part of this story where the collapsing nation sucks less until its been utterly destroyed.
It's like Trump sees Russia as an example to emulate instead of a mad dog.
New-Win-2177@reddit
Can't save someone while they also want to put you down.
CherryHaterade@reddit
Lol the very notion of trying to save someone who thinks they're better than you just sounds very exhausting. Refugees who refuse to eat sandwiches with the crust on and shit, lol. LOL. Can you imagine telling Daddy's princess Keighden that she'll need to downgrade from the mcmansion to a refugee tent? And omg no Starbucks? She's not leaving, her or her Pomeranians.
refusemouth@reddit
I will welcome UN peacekeeper forces if it comes to it, and I haven't been liquidated yet . I'd rather not end up as biodiesel to fuel heavy machinery for the construction of technofuedalist "ecovillages" that use Xcoin as a currency.
hds2019@reddit
I’d only welcome peacekeepers from western nations/SEA allies. Russian, Chinese, or African personnel would likely result in catastrophic numbers of deaths/SA/and other assorted crimes against humanity due to mutual hatred of the US. Plus a lot of US citizens might ballistically disagree with their presence.
CherryHaterade@reddit
"Yes I want to be saved, but not like that!"
ChaoticGoodPanda@reddit
I’m waiting for the light blue helmets too.
Bluest_waters@reddit
Thank you! we literally need to the world to help us and all Europe can do is look down their noses at us and shake their heads and clutch their fucking pearls.
hey dipshits! we saved the world from Hitler how bout returning the favor???
Greedy_Pin_9187@reddit
You didn’t save shit. Soviets did.
Take a fucking look at yourselves in the mirror and start being the biggest person in the room. You guys have all the guns you could ever need. Resistance has to come from inside.
Get your fucking shit together and man up for fuck sake.
anonymous_owlbear@reddit
One thing the article didn't expect was the massive increase in US oil production from shale. This factor alone has been holding the broken pieces of the economy for a while.
235711@reddit
Living on borrowed time.
TruganSmith@reddit
Not really. It’s a script and it was written generations ago. It’s just national socialism all over again.
Dazzling_Night_1368@reddit
Not really. Marx pointed out nearly 200 years ago that capitalism will inevitably develop into fascism. Among countless other theoreticians who lived throughout the 19th and 20th century. American education system just doesn’t teach these people.
diedlikeCambyses@reddit
Well yes, some of us have been openly talking about this obvious trajectory for quite some time now.
pinqe@reddit
There’s no way the Wall Street bail out in 2008 was going to play out well long term. Once the tea party became a legitimate electorate in this country I knew we were cooked and it was only a matter of time.
CherryHaterade@reddit
It wasn't even the bailout so much as the complete lack of consequences on anyone's part. What should have been a public pillorying instead became an aw shucks "oh it wasn't really anyone's fault" that it ended up being.
diedlikeCambyses@reddit
Yes I agree. There were earlier signs, but that was a huge coffin nail.
NordieNord@reddit
and had others brutally gaslight us pointing this out
Stinkdonkey@reddit
A far-right patriot has already captured the Presidency.
hawklord23@reddit
Who said he is a " Patriot"? Slease ball felon more like it
Stinkdonkey@reddit
Erm, he does, humps flags to the national anthem so people will believe it.
Fugitive-Images87@reddit
The previous line is even better: "Meanwhile, amid soaring prices, ever-rising unemployment, and a continuing decline in real wages, domestic divisions widen into violent clashes and divisive debates, often over remarkably irrelevant issues."
betterthanguybelow@reddit
‘We’d talk about the cost of living crisis but some people put pronouns at the bottom of emails.’
SlipperyWidget@reddit
That's crazy accurate
WinstonChurchill74@reddit
I know that was his 2020 date…. But holy shit he nailed it
thatguyad@reddit
That was a brilliant piece.
FUDintheNUD@reddit
Lotta US citizens pretty soon gonna be wishing they were illegal immigrants so they can get free flights out of the dumpster fire
verdasuno@reddit
Well, the prediction wasn't entirely wrong... we are definitely witnessing the collapse of the United States of America in 2025. It is being taken apart from within, its institutions, social accords, national consensus, economically, and more.
Dave37@reddit
The rise of fascism or the development of a post-truth culture isn't mentioned once. I've seen enough predictions of future events to know how useless they often are. It's so hard to account for major singular events that are just around the corner and over emphasize current events. It's not weird that comming out of the recession of 08-09, and the ongoing war in the middle east, predictions would center around economic upheaval or military overextension, failing to account for the effects of the rise fo fascism, international psycological warfare through social media, climate catastrophes and the covid pandemic.
lego_not_legos@reddit
Which is why the entire article posits fictional scenarios, not to give concrete predictions of future problems, but to illustrate how easily order can unravel.
Many of the issues used in those scenarios are spot on. The escalation of conflict over the South China Sea borders, trade deficits, cyber warfare from China. Look at Huawei equipment being banned from telcos'
Dave37@reddit
There was no conflict, even diplomatic, between the US and China in the South China sea in 2010. Look, if I say that there will be a major conflict between Pakistan and India later this year, it's hardly "spot on" if it doesn't materialize for the next 25 years and only then by a continuation of the same policy and skirmishes that has been in place for decades.
Again, this is something that defense people have been talking about for ages, long before 2010 and it was a given as soon as the internet came around. It's nothing new and nothing extraordinary to say in 2010 that china develops offensive nuclear, space, and cyber warfare capabilities, because that was already the case then.
A good example of something not mentioned in the article.
lego_not_legos@reddit
The article links directly to this one. It has escalated because now Chinese military ships are openly attacking Philippine ones, and harassing RAAF aircraft, e.g. by dropping flares in front of them. Aus. is still a U.S. ally as far as I know.
I think cyber warfare has escalated considerably and its impact isn't negated by its obviousness.
You're right the article doesn't explicitly mention robotic soldiers, but does discuss the over-concentration of power, turning once functional cities into huge slums.
It'll be much easier to tell robots what to do than people. So the possibility of that type of scenario becomes all the more plausible with their use.
Dave37@reddit
Fantastic prediction /s, referecing events that happened 6 months prior to the article being written.
Something that hasn't happened either.
Well, very obviously not until the end of the year.
Sine_Fine_Belli@reddit
You know what just let America Balkanize, hopefully something better will rise from the ashes
FeloniousStunk@reddit
Well this is disturbingly prescient for an article that was written in 2010.
TheGoodBunny@reddit
So... how should one position investments if America is cooker? My meager 401(k) etc is in America
EmbersEtoile@reddit
Mostly joking but kinda not... Walmart wouldn't be a bad investment right now. I'm not an expert, I can only go based on my subjective amateur level experience of my .34 shares increasing by roughly 30 percent since August.
BlueLaserCommander@reddit
Watched a good presentation by a representative addressing the speaker of the house a couple of days ago. He was trying to put the US debt into perspective & extrapolate our trajectory a couple of years—maybe a decade into the future.
The way the US economy and federal budget works is weird—very unintuitive. Essentially, the debt comes from the government owning money to itself—bonds bought by citizens or other nations are essentially loaning money to the US government at a specific interest rate. The US government is expected to pay the bond back + interest. That isn't all of it—it's a complex system, but that's the gist.
The representative tried to covey how much debt the US has taken on, how much we owe in interest, and how much we're adding to our debt each year.
Essentially, within 10 years—interest payments will make up the largest percentage of the annual federal budget. And it's not even close. Our debt is increasing exponentially. It took 250 years to reach $35 trillion in national debt—and it'll likely double in less than a tenth of that time. Less than 25 years. I honestly think it's less than 15 years.
Now, this is alarming. The implications on inflation, alone, are severe & worrying. However, I have no clue how to interpret all of this data. I cannot intuit how this debt affects citizens or even comprehend the numbers involved. I'm aware of high brow economic theory playing out, but don't understand it well enough to pretend like I know what all of this means.
Just thought it was interesting.
EmbersEtoile@reddit
FWIW: https://youtu.be/TCyysMU66VA?si=4hreCvVl2p5ajAsj
Just finished watching this, myself. It was shocking, to say the least.
Rossdxvx@reddit
It is also weird realizing that you watched the country die. That is why hopium is so bad. You waste all this time hoping and waiting for things to get better rather than appreciating the time you had left.
holistivist@reddit
It’s funny. By most objective measures, my life is by far the worst it’s ever been. But seeing the end nearing closer, I’m so much more appreciative of what’s left. I feel more present and alive than I ever have before, and it makes me happier than I’ve ever been.
Comfort and stability is wasted on the comfortable and stable.
Rossdxvx@reddit
If we stared death in the face at all moments of every single day, we would live our lives in a state of perfect awareness. This is what is lacking in the world today - a sense of a deeper level of consciousness.
obvious__bicycle@reddit
I kept waiting for the best days to come, not realizing that I was living them
holistivist@reddit
The best days are the ones you’re present in and appreciative of. They are now and yet to come.
Betty_Boi9@reddit
what an alarmist article, the year jus
*article was written 15 years ago*
oh fu-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IN22qZp2Szk
alamohero@reddit
This article isn’t it. It primarily focuses on the advanced military capability of the Chinese and our place on the world stage. It doesn’t really talk about crumbling from political upheaval within.
K174@reddit
I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time -- when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers are in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness...
The dumbing down of America is most evident in the slow decay of substantive content in the enormously influential media, the 30 second sound bites (now down to 10 seconds or less), lowest common denominator programming, credulous presentations on pseudoscience and superstition, but especially a kind of celebration of ignorance. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark
These_Koala_7487@reddit
Fun fact: Carl Sagan was a huge pot head. Freaking Grade A hero in my book.
bill_lite@reddit
Ha I didn't know that, love him even more now if true
DisciplineIll6821@reddit
His wife, Ann Druyan, was president of NORML (National Organization for the Reform of Marijuana Laws).
These_Koala_7487@reddit
I should have linked an article for proof. Here you go! https://bigthink.com/health/carl-sagan-on-smoking-marijuana/
IRockIntoMordor@reddit
in 1995
DisciplineIll6821@reddit
Curiously, we were already there by the time he had said that. Not much has really changed since then—the existing problems just got a whole lot worse. Presumably he was trying to frame it in a way that didn't seem anti-American.
particleye@reddit
Vegetable_Test517@reddit
Sagan is my only prophet
m00z9@reddit
A true Saint of Science. Immortal. Peerless.
Sagan said, it is a “mistake to think of Israel’s survival … as determined only by what happens in the Mideast. A nation can be utterly destroyed in a nuclear war even if no nuclear weapons are dropped on its territory. We are all dependent on each other.” Avoidance of nuclear war must be the first priority for the Jewish community–and everybody else, he said.
Sagan was severely critical of Israel’s alleged military and nuclear collaboration with South Africa. “I think it’s very similar to Israel cooperating with Nazi Germany,” he told the JTA. “It’s very hard to understand how a nation composed largely of people who fled from a vicious and racist regime can then become militarily allied with a vicious and racist regime.”
Asked whether such cooperation is justified because of Israel’s struggle for survival, Sagan retorted: “Is everything permissible, no matter what principle, in terms of perceived national survival? Would that have an acceptable (justification) for people siding with the Nazis in World War II? What did Jews think about that?”
LightningSunflower@reddit
Folks should acquire some hard copies of this book. We may need them in the times ahead.
AlwaysPissedOff59@reddit
Bold of you to think that mandatory house searches for banned books won't be a policy in a year or two.
It Can't Happen Here has been somewhat prescient so far... we'll see if that continues.
LightningSunflower@reddit
Don’t comply in advance! If they want to come house to house searching for books, then I’ll hide mine. But not before then.
Positronic_Matrix@reddit
Paper can be used to feed and breed cockroaches for protein.
cruisingforapubing@reddit
Jesus Christ I’ve read this before but just how wholly and unequivocally accurate this prediction has come to be is haunting. And I can hear his voice perfectly in my head lol
Busy-Support4047@reddit
Yeah, way more prescient than the linked article, which argues lack of tech innovation and devaluation of the dollar (both nope).
Sagan knew it would be a cultural failure on a personal level.
HGruberMacGruberFace@reddit
Wow - I love Carl Sagan, he’s a time traveler right?
BlackPrinceofAltava@reddit
The mystification of intelligence, while flattering and in this case obviously just a kindhearted joke, is kind of evidence of what he's talking about.
Things have gotten so bad that we look at people who have publicly said what people need to know as if their existence at all is a kind of optimistic fiction.
HGruberMacGruberFace@reddit
I wouldn’t say I’m mystifying it, but rather constantly in awe of it.
Romulox_returns@reddit
No just smart and strong pattern recognition.
turtleandmoss@reddit
As a teen, this was my intro to Sagan. Worked my way backwards and out only got better
WanderInTheTrees@reddit
Wait a minute, I thought everything bad was scheduled for 2050!?
OnwardsBackwards@reddit
Hahha we'll be +2C< before 2035.
Jake_Break@reddit
It took ~8 years to go from +1 to +1.6. Calling it now that we'll be there before 2028...
holistivist@reddit
It took a month to go from +1.5 to +1.75. While entering La Niña of all things. I’m calling +2 by the end of the year.
Jake_Break@reddit
Hold on to your butts!
shaoshi@reddit
Fuck, I had +2C for next year on my bingo board!
run_free_orla_kitty@reddit
Sorry, everything bad is happening faster than expected. :(
adreamroom@reddit
Same. I have it on my calendar.
MonteryWhiteNoise@reddit
as one updated metric:
US Patents issued in 2024: 730,000
Chinese Patents issued: 1,034,000
me-need-more-brain@reddit
TBF, china has more than triple the amount of citizens, so the per capita emission on patents is way lower.
MonteryWhiteNoise@reddit
I don't think that was about emissions. The article used patents as a measure of societal growth and economic development. In that context it doesn't have anything to do with ecological emissions. Obviously such growth comes with environmental costs.
What I think the article is alluding to is that whatever percent of the population are The Next Einstein, when you have 1.2 billion people, that society is going to have several orders more such people than a society of 400 million.
Which strongly indicates which society will be the next leader of innovation.
me-need-more-brain@reddit
That was a joke, patents measured as per capita emissions.
You can put X amount of emissions out per head, or X amount of patents, while the overall comparison might seem reasonable on a national basis,per capita gives a different perspective.
Grand-Leg-1130@reddit
Don't worry with how fast Musk is dismantling the civil service and most people just shrugging their shoulders, we'll have our new tech bro feudal overlords soon to set things right.
TheCrazedTank@reddit
Guard: Where does thy hail from Servitor!
Servitor X-8975-a: I hail from the lands on Comcastia, where I work the lithium mines.
Grand-Leg-1130@reddit
Still sounds better than life in the Musk Freehold.
BadAsBroccoli@reddit
The Freehold is just for men. The Musk Harem will be for the fertile ladies.
holistivist@reddit
I’ll die first. And not without company.
OneTripleZero@reddit
I just threw up in my mouth a bit.
MinimumBuy1601@reddit
In the silicon mines of Tesla, the living are dead...
markodochartaigh1@reddit
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off (the) shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die.
No-Insurance100@reddit
What's your solution, write your Congressman? Complain on social media?
mooky1977@reddit
In Luigi we trust! Right?
Burindo@reddit
At this point, I am hoping for his brother Mario to show up too.
codystockton@reddit
+1UP
BisexualCaveman@reddit
VP9 go BRRRRRR
https://www.recoilweb.com/bt-vp9-review-veterinary-pistol-163880.html
Bag_of_Meat13@reddit
The thing is is as soon as that happens I feel every day that goes by the people have more and more of a right to use that Ole second amendment.
aznoone@reddit
There are many loving this. Musk and Trump to them are doing a great job.
Grand-Leg-1130@reddit
Oh no doubt, they'll sing praises right up until their social security checks or VA disability benefits disappear, but then they'll probably find a way to blame Obama and Biden.
ategnatos@reddit
classic mix-up
Sad-Blueberry-7440@reddit
Voting should be limited to people with a minimum IQ or something else to avoid selfish stupid people to be able to vote for orange douchebags
thekbob@reddit
IQ has historically been heavily racially biased and used a great deal in eugenics.
I get the idea, but that's equally dangerous, if not worse.
LessonStudio@reddit
I would argue collapse is not as simple as it seems. The formerly rich in their mansion can burn the furniture to keep warm. They might even sell it as "We are so rich, we can burn expensive furniture!"
After WWII the British Empire was in seriously deep debt. They went on a tour of their various colonies, asking them to accept a pause on interest payments. Many of them did. They thought they were being secretive about this.
Except, this only underlined to everyone (as everyone knew) that the pound was mostly dead.
But, the UK didn't just collapse into a heap of burning rubble. They kept on with various war rationing, import barriers, etc, until about 55, then they started clawing their way out of the mess. Even Thatcher was fighting this fight in the 70s and 80s.
I would argue, that the US is mostly in the same situation. They are highly relevent to the world, but as the article points out, in steady decline.
As time goes by, certain tradeoffs, which made sense in the past, are likely to be recinded by different parts of the world.
For example. A massive one is that the US has been allowed to dominate the world's financial systems in various ways from its currency, to the swift system, to banking, to finance, and more. This was allowed in exchange for the US having a military which could offset the Soviets. This was only a semi-formal agreement. Even with the Soviet empire falling apart, there wasn't a huge amount of pushback on this. The EU knew that as it grew this would naturally weaken.
But, with a combination of Biden's anemic support for Ukraine along with the batshit crazy stuff various US officials have said, even in the last 48 hours, the EU, along with most of the west, know the US is a fair weather friend at best now. The various "Special Relationships" are over.
This is a long winded way to reach my main point.
Until now, the US debt has arguably been fine, as it really is world debt. It is less the US debt to GDP ratio, as it is the world GDP which was supporting it. But, as the world pulls away from the US, and is no longer willing to put up with being bullied, the US is now going to be left more and more to deal with its own debt.
Where this can "quickly" show up is with short consecutive set of debt auctions. When the treasury auctions off debt they mostly have the numbers all worked out ahead of time; who will buy what for what rates; sometimes there just aren't enough buyers and the feds are able to force increased domestic buying. This is combined with threats and bullying (long before trump) to get other countries to continue buying this crap. But, those threats are becoming worthless as more and more countries are realizing they have to make a stand now, or trump and his thugs will walk all over them. This means that there are countries out there which are not going to show up at the next debt auction. They will make this excuse or that excuse, but they just won't show up. trump will lose his mind and open up a torrent of threats, but they will say, "You mean more threats like your last lot, or the lot before, or the ones the week before that? Lose my number."
At first, the fed will be able to make this look like business as usual; as fed auctions are technically public, but are actually all backroom deals; so it will be hard to see one or two bad auctions as anything but a blip. But, I predict three sets of auctions will happen:
Then, the stories will leak out that, just like the WWII British Empire, the US is going to their friends and asking for a pause in interest payments. These "friends" will say, "Of course, not a problem." and then tell their finance people to dump that debt as fast as they can. As in, within days. They will begin dumping it at huge discounts.
This last is not quite the straw which breaks the camel's back. It means any future debt auctions will be disasters. But the US will use it's still huge influence to punish anyone who is selling debt at massive discounts; things like terminating that debt. The second this happens, nobody but the extremely stupid will accept US debt as a medium of exchange.
This last will instantly bung up world trade for the US. A company like Ford will reach out to some international supplier of rubber, steel, etc, and say, "Hey; we want our usual order of 100m in your product." and the foreign sales guy will say, "Great, but, one tiny problem, our finance people are being d*cks and want to be paid in something other than US treasuries." The Ford guy will say, "No problem, our guys will sort that out."
Then the Ford guy will call the finance department to organize this, and they finance guy will shout, "F*ck, not another one." now importing companies like Ford will be scrambling to buy various currencies around the world; a scramble which means the demand is wildly outstripping the supply, and the reverse will be true for US dollar instruments; the supply will wildly exceed demand.
Some companies like Ford will have international revenue which can mitigate the pain, but many companies do not; and they are screwed.
Just as the article said, though, things will look fine, right up until they start to degrade. But, like the fallen aristocrats burning the furniture to keep warm, the US has fairly large reserves of things it can sacrifice to keep things on a seemingly even keel. There will be economists ringing alarm bells as they point out the US furniture reserve is down to just the front entrance, but other economist talking heads will be laughing and saying, "Oh, look at chicken little. The US economy is only going from strength to strength and will be solid right through this century."
The key time to panic is when the feds start to make statements about "not panicking" and "There will be no capital controls; and whoever is saying this is just being alarmist."
LazyNature469@reddit
Disagree with your point aboutThatcher .. The former pm Harold MacMillan accused her of selling the family silver. Ie our nationalised industries esp , water electricity etc . We are still living with the ramifications of Thatcherism , the uk has s many problems I am not going to list them here. She used the proceeds of North Sea oil to allow million to be made unemployed as we switched to service economy and then fucked that up with Brexit .There was no trick E down of wealth . The uk may not be as precarious as the USA but it’s not in a good place and the Toired and neoliberalism are the driving factor
LessonStudio@reddit
I didn't say she fought well. Also, I think she inspired a bunch of mini-Thatchers all around the world who screwed up in almost identical ways.
She is the classic case of getting a hammer for Christmas, and the world became a nail. There were some gems, like the classic British Leyland being on strike more than they were open, and then making garbage cars when they were.
I don't fully understand the coal industry, but that seemed pretty broken as well.
In Nova Scotia Canada, we had a coal and steel industry which was also garbage. Massive employer in an economic disaster area. The steel rail being produced was so poor the national rail cartel would buy it (with government grants) and then leave it to rust; as they were buying good rail from others. They were producing enough rail for the whole country, and none of it was being used.
They then shut this down hard during the Thatcher inspired area. This was good. But, then they privatized the power utility, which turned to to be a long term disaster.
LazyNature469@reddit
Ignoring the environment impact , the shutting down of the coal industry in the uk was a act of spite by the ruling lite against the organised working classes Revenge for the miners bring down a Tory government in the 70s.Lots of profitable mines were close and the uk imported lots of coal from Poland I think. The uk was still capable of extracting good quality coal but chose to import instead.It was not an economic descion but a political one.Interesting Thatcher was aware of the dangers of C02 but not sure that had any bearing on her class warfare.
MinimumBuy1601@reddit
I don't doubt that what you say is going to happen; but my concern is on the $2 quadrillion dollars of derivatives that are floating around, most of them not worth the electrons on the servers they're on. Many of those derivatives are tied to Treasuries, and any disruption to the value of those Treasuries WILL affect the derivative markets.
In addition, any disruption to said Treasuries will also affect the broader markets...and all the financial instruments that have derivatives tied to them. Once those derivatives start taking a dive...those who own them are going to try to get something out of them...and then all hell breaks loose. I'm pretty sure AIG's name will start popping up again like it did in 2008 when they couldn't cover their portfolio insurance and the losses would have broken the markets.
If I were the board members of the Chicago Board of Trade, I'd be real nervous right about now.
LessonStudio@reddit
This is where even the experts scratch their heads and say, "I just don't know"
My personal guess is that it isn't as bad as it seems. If that market blew up in a massive way, I suspect most of it would affect a fairly small number of firms.
Ironically, the world would probably be way better off with those firms being wiped out.
The good bits would probably reform and continue just fine within a short time.
MinimumBuy1601@reddit
Watch Deutschebank...they have a billion dollars of deposits...and 50 BILLION dollars of derivative exposure. They've essentially been propped up since 2018.
Ever heard of "dark pools?" This is where the majority of the derivatives are stashed, sloshing around and getting renewed because the real value is dogshit. AFAIK, from about two years ago, the banks will only officially claim roughly $750 trillion...where's the other $1300 trillion?
Unfortunately, every major bank has exposure to this toxic paper, on top of all of the investment houses.
Last I checked, the actual "real" value of everything on the planet is $54 trillion. That means the entire planet is leveraged at 37:1, and that doesn't give me a warm feeling.
When those futures, forwards, swaps and other exotic derivatives unwind, someone has to pay it or someone has to eat it. Unfortunately, everyone who sold portfolio insurance is going to be on the hook for it...including said AIG, who got saved in 2008 (and Drexel Lambert went under because it was either save them or save AIG...as in save the financial system)
Who do you think is going to eat it the next time? Can you say the US Government...which already has a debt problem?
And if good old Baby Doc Pinochet in DC decides to repudiate the debt...we'll all be using those Treasuries as toilet paper...and every derivative tied to Treasuries are going to disappear, and not in a good way.
In a good world, the implosion would only be confined to a few bad actors, and the system would be repaired. Unfortunately, I think at the very least every bank tied to the Federal Reserve is screwed...and then we get to see if the Keynesian system can survive.
LessonStudio@reddit
Years ago I worked in financial tech. I built some trading systems, etc. But, I literally never heard of CDOs. I was familiar with MBSs, but they aren't that complex a concept when you bother to think for 2 seconds (as THE movie explained).
I even was quite familiar with the idea that junk bonds could be shoved into the same sack to make them comparatively less junky; thank you Mr Milken; who incidentally went to HS with my BIL.
But the simple factoid that there were CDOs where the bulk of the underlying mortgages had missed their first payment was so glaringly obvious, but entirely ignored.
So, I will ask you, what is the naked emporer with these? You have some great fact, but they take some braincells functioning. What is the "have missed their first mortgage payment" level insanity.
Baby Hands Duvalier.
I really love watching when the smartest guys in the room lose everything. So let's hope all of those firms which only hires from Harvard, or Yale or something. Every single one of them.
MinimumBuy1601@reddit
I am but a lowly electronic technician, but I enjoy it when someone gets it. It took me three months to wrap my head around a swap...and when I did, I understood why AIG was a problem in 2008. Agreed on all counts.
Baby Hands Duvalier...I love it when great minds think alike!
robpensley@reddit
I am impressed; I'm going to save this thread.
How do you know all this? I'm serious.
LessonStudio@reddit
As Mark Twain said: History doesn't repeat itself, but it often rhymes.
TheHipcrimeVocab@reddit
There a couple of notes here: 1) Any sovereign currency issuer is always able to make good on its debts. The US will always be able to pay it's debt. However: 2.) It looks like, despite this, the US is sending signals it may default on debt because of--well, I'm not sure. Ideology, incompetence, pigheadedness, whatever. That's the gist of this article: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2025/feb/16/forget-trumps-tariffs-the-presidents-bond-market-threat-is-worse
LessonStudio@reddit
Yup.
But, money and debt is all about confidence. If various things trigger people to lose confidence in the US finances, it all goes south pretty quickly; as the actions of the unconfident will potentially trigger less confidence.
Where it truly gets weird is if the US has a financial crisis, so will much of the world. Triggering a flight to safety. The US dollar has long been a safe haven.
Thus, a collapse in the US currency won't probably happen in a freefall, but with all kinds of weird recoveries, reversals, and general mayhem.
Darnocpdx@reddit
Mostly agree, but you're missing a major factor.
England had a preferential position with the US after the War. The only industrial nation after WWII whose resources, infrastructure, and manufacturing wasn't reduced to a pile of rubble and ash. And this is the reason they were able to recover quickly, and why the US has dominated world finance and industry until fairly recently. We dont have anyone to back us up currently, and are quickly burning bridges with those that do have our backs.
LessonStudio@reddit
I don't think Americans are getting this. A few are, but most are cheering on the admin saying, "Now the world is finding out what its like to fund their own army."
But, just as you say, you want people to have your back. In the real world, often "having someone's back" isn't only showing up in a critical situation, but helping to nudge things so critical situations don't even happen.
But, if I had to pick one measurable thing which is going to come from this is the near free ride US tech and other service companies have had in the rest of the west. The EU would sometimes do a showboating fine, but these either were dumbed down, or they didn't amount to much. I suspect by the end of 2026 most US tech companies are going to be paying full EU taxes, no different than if they were an EU based company. They will also be fined over and over and over until they stop whatever it was generating the fines. They will also actually end up paying these fines.
I will also bet the US admin will be threatening more and more drastic measures against the EU for doing this; only to be ignored.
It will take longer, but once US tech companies no longer have the unfair advantage of operating in the EU nearly regulation and tax free, you will see EU based tech giants spring up.
Texuk1@reddit
I agree with you that the wildfire starts in the treasury bond market, I guess my view is that the fire has already started. The bond market has significantly shifted since the Fed made moves to calm inflation from two decades where the treasury ostensibly borrowed for free to a compete reversal up to near 5% in the 10 year causing the US national debt service cost to rise. And now inflation is picking back up and Trump adding inflationary pressures with more tariffs. The world views US treasuries as a barometer of safety and trump in my view adds uncertainty around whether the US government will honour its promises - the implicit promise that it won’t mess with revenue (either through compromising the system or no longer collecting taxes), won’t take highly inflationary measures and will continue to pay interest and repay capital. Even musk insinuated that a good portion of treasury notes are fraud creates uncertainty (if this is true you deal with it outside the public view). My biggest concern is the huge tax breaks for the wealthy coupled with 10% treasuries and 12% inflation. Were finished then in a few years.
LessonStudio@reddit
I read a good one where a guy involved in an S&P US bond downgrade said that he wasn't sure it would happen as this federal government is a spiteful bunch.
I would say he made it clear that they should be downgraded.
Not doing a downgrade just makes the eventual bonfire that much worse.
Darnocpdx@reddit
I'm even less optimistic than you.
I suspect the current admin will purposely undermine the economy using the Treasury to basically pump and dump in and out of the dollar (likely in a bubble currently), the stick markets, and crypto,
LessonStudio@reddit
President Cheeto stain has a very long history of massive borrowing, bankruptcies, and not paying any bill he didn't have to. I suspect he just signed contracts "See you in court loser."
Why would he see the biggest piggy bank in the world any differently?
CasaSatoshi@reddit
👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻 great comment 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
Chizmiz1994@reddit
Very interesting read.
I should point that back in 2010 AI wasn't as advanced and well researched as now. So this Article doesn't directly point at it, but keeps talking about robotic military. While that is a good arfumen, we should point that AI is a big factor in military operations now, and America isn't the only country advanced at it, and Europe is nowhere in the news. China and America are two countries heavily investing into it, and China seems to be ahead.
Another point I want to make, back when Evergreen ship got stuck in the Suez Canal, it became obvious that if someone wants to damage global trades, they can try to close the Suez Canal, and maybe Panama Canal, and Gibraltar. This could happen through a similar event, or a terrorist attack, destroying a few ships in these choke points.
Besides sabotaging trade routes there is a chance for sabotaging oil production as well, as this article points to it. Back when Houthis were fighting Saudi Arabia, one of their attacks really shocked the world as they managed to destroy some of Saudi refineries. They're in a cease fire now. But if someone destroys more of the Saudi refineries, it will heavily affect global oil markets, damage the world economies dependent on it. Interestingly many global actors have motivation to destroy Saudi Arabian oil refineries. Iran can easily damage one of their regional rivals, and has threatened the world in doing so. Yemen could end up fighting Saudi again, and destroying their main source of income will push Saudi back. Russia could do it to force world become dependent on their own oil, and China could do it to destroy one of the oil suppliers for the US. US and Israel can do it to blame Iran for it, and have a reason to start another war in the middle east. So this case is just a matter of when, and not if.
Chizmiz1994@reddit
Another thing I want to point out, back in 2000 US had a lot of excess budget. If only the US chose Algore against Bush, and he went ahead with its renewable energies initiative, US could be independent of oil by now. But Bush pushed for Afghanistan and Iraq Wars, and brought the economy into deficit. US could have built a city in the space with that money.
tawandagames2@reddit
And that was a stolen election
obvious__bicycle@reddit
Allowing stolen elections to stand is how we keep digging this hole deeper
Chizmiz1994@reddit
Quite interestingly, we now have Trump in the White House, who doesn't seem to be fit to manage a crisis, as we saw in the Covid Pandemic. So the next crisis that hits the World, or the US is going to hit very big.
Complete_Echo3755@reddit
Yup, by 2028 or sooner we'll be in a far graver crisis that it'll make the COVID pandemic look like a picnic by comparison but only this time the off ramp that existed in 2020 will be no longer there anymore in terms of having fair and free elections since the collapse of the USA is pretty much inevitable at this point as long Trump remains in power in this current trajectory and it's all a deathward spiral from there since his regime is unsustainable in the long run.
MIGsalund@reddit
It'll be even worse if Thiel's lackey Vance has to assume the mantle of power. Then you can be assured that the country will cease to exist.
ifuckedyourdaddytoo@reddit
Well it would be the collapse of America's global preeminence, not necessarily of America itself. America would limp along domestically, but it won't descend into utter chaos. Spain, Portugal, the UK ... they all survived the collapses of their empires, the aftermath was painful to live through but they lived through it. Don't forget also that the US is still a nuclear power and can deter actual invasion of the homeland.
One hope I have is that other countries, especially China, are on a faster decline trajectory than we are. So that even if they surpass us, they will soon peak then decline even faster than we do. Their demographics aren't good. Birth rates aren't helping.
DreamHollow4219@reddit
Finally, someone else with a similar assessment as mine.
I had previously mentioned on here that I had a feeling some major collapse was happening soon, but I had to keep pushing back my timeline slightly for a little while there.
Now it feels like it's finally here. Even if current leadership was ousted by some miracle, it wouldn't be fast or effective enough. Trust has been broken. Not just by the political whims of those already in charge, but the people who let it happen, are letting it happen, and will likely continue to let it happen.
Meepwaffle@reddit
The Author, Alfred McCoy, is a Yale educated historian and professor at UW Madison. He’s best known to the public for blowing the whistle on CIA drug running in SE Asia and testifying before Congress about it, but he’s also got some great books. In The Shadow of the American Century and To Govern the Globe are both extremely good recent books about America’s decline.
ExplanationNo9009@reddit
Wish this could be pinned. That's a good resume
Empty_Peak_668@reddit (OP)
That’s interesting to hear, im definitely going to check out more of this guys work, hadn’t heard of him before i stumbled on this article
duckduckgoated@reddit
This is terrifying holy fuck I thought it was gonna be a clickbait published Dec 31st 2024 but damn 2010??? Fuck us
idkmoiname@reddit
It is more or less clickbait if you read the entire article. Although the timeframe is spot on, the detailed scenarios are far off
duckduckgoated@reddit
Yes! I completely agree. I was just pointing out that for clickbait it’s a little too on the nose with 2025. The detailed scenarios are just interesting to read because damn things were so different back then!
ExplanationNo9009@reddit
Kinda makes me wonder about those who did read that 'clickbait' article and how many people laughed it off, forgot about it and then had a moment when they remembered reading it.
spolio@reddit
Carl Sagan wrote something similar in 1995 in a demon haunted world, there's a whole chapter in his biggest fear fur America electing someone described exactly as trump and how it will be the downfall of the main if not the world, Stephen King wrote about it in the dead zone.
K174@reddit
The Demon-Haunted World should be required reading in every school across the globe. As predicted, the decline in critical-thinking skills in American education has damaged its democracy.
zilchxzero@reddit
Throw in Asimov:
“There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that ‘my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."
And H.L. Mencken
"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron"
No tea leaves or crystal balls required
potsgotme@reddit
False prophecies won't save us
_ThatD0ct0r_@reddit
true prophecies won't save us
Zen_Bonsai@reddit
Woah
RogueVert@reddit
he also wrote on the benefits of marijuana:
“Since then I have smoked occasionally and enjoyed it thoroughly. It amplifies torpid sensibilities and produces what to me are even more interesting effects.”
“The cannabis experience has greatly improved my appreciation for art, a subject which I had never much appreciated before. The understanding of the intent of the artist which I can achieve when high sometimes carries over to when I’m down. This is one of many human frontiers that cannabis has helped me traverse. There also have been some art-related insights – I don’t know whether they are true or false, but they were fun to formulate.”
“The cannabis experience has greatly improved my appreciation for art, a subject which I had never much appreciated before. The understanding of the intent of the artist which I can achieve when high sometimes carries over to when I’m down. This is one of many human frontiers that cannabis has helped me traverse. There also have been some art-related insights – I don’t know whether they are true or false, but they were fun to formulate.”
“The illegality of cannabis is outrageous,an impediment to full utilization of a drug which helps produce the serenity and insight, sensitivity and fellowship so desperately needed in this increasingly mad and dangerous world.”
full text
Gay_For_Gary_Oldman@reddit
Demon Haunted World is more broadly about cognitive biases and how our brain is predisposed to certain beliefs based on pattern recognition. As the above commenters said, it should be mandatory reading in school, alongside Obedience Fo Authority by Stanley Milgram.
OnwardsBackwards@reddit
Miss you Carl.
diedlikeCambyses@reddit
The frustrating thing is how everyone laughed at us who were saying this back then. It was not a fun wall to bang ones head against. It was like living in an alternate reality where some could see what was obvious, but 99% of people would respond ferociously when we brought it up.
cattosandgaming@reddit
I studied climate change at Uni in the late 00s and I've gone through a similar sort of thing. The scientific evidence was so clear by then about us being on the precipice of irreversible change if we didn't do anything about it soon. And now, here we are.
zenbullet@reddit
Day what you will about Heinlein's proclivities, but he called that this would happen around this time
He was about a decade off
Empty_Peak_668@reddit (OP)
Meant to include that in my title. It being from 2010 makes it a very eerie read, as i think a lot of his predictions from 15 years ago could definitely come true. Usually with predictions like these you look back on them and think how wrong they were, but with how the last 2 months have gone nothing can surprise me anymore lol
duckduckgoated@reddit
It’s just remarkable how on the nose this author was! It’s interesting to view a countries demise through 2010 eyes and makes you appreciate how damn good we had it in 2010 if that’s all they predicted 😂
Empty_Peak_668@reddit (OP)
Yeah like another commenter said this guy needs an award lol. He’s perfectly summed up the current political environment of today. 15 Years ago lmao.
Feels like i’ve uncovered some sort of lost prophecy 😂
Empty_Peak_668@reddit (OP)
SS: The article is collapse related as it shows why the author thinks America will collapse by 2025. The article lists multiple scenarios ranging from oil shortages to world war 3. The article is from 2010 so the author relates the scenarios to what America was like at the time, making it a very interesting read.
UpbeatBarracuda@reddit
"In a dark, dystopian version of our global future, a coalition of transnational corporations, multilateral forces like NATO, and an international financial elite could conceivably forge a single, possibly unstable, supra-national nexus that would make it no longer meaningful to speak of national empires at all. While denationalized corporations and multinational elites would assumedly rule such a world from secure urban enclaves, the multitudes would be relegated to urban and rural wastelands."
This hits too close to home
colorado_jane@reddit
Good read. He missed the actual cause of the demise of the US which, IMHO, is using select media outlets and social media to run decades long psyops targeting our socioeconomic fissures. Add in some Kompromat on key figures and unchecked greed and we are circling the drain.
vid_icarus@reddit
Trump keeps talking about Canada becoming americas 51st state, but I’d be ok with Minnesota becoming Canada’s 11th province.
BelleHades@reddit
Please, no. Canada wants to kill me for being disabled :(
tiredafsoul@reddit
From a Canadian….what are you talking about??
BelleHades@reddit
I'm referring to disabled people being pressued to use MAID
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
[removed]
collapse-ModTeam@reddit
Rule 1: In addition to enforcing Reddit's content policy, we will also remove comments and content that is abusive or predatory in nature. You may attack each other's ideas, not each other.
collapse-ModTeam@reddit
Rule 4: Keep information quality high.
Information quality must be kept high. More detailed information regarding our approaches to specific claims can be found on the Misinformation & False Claims page.
Betty_Bookish@reddit
And Michigan. 2 for 1 deal.
Pernicious-Peach@reddit
Michigan went red. There's no chance canada accepts you guys now
MIGsalund@reddit
Just take Detroit. We're still blue.
Milkbagistani@reddit
We already gave Detroit back to the US in 1814 No refunds! Store credit only.
MIGsalund@reddit
We only want store credit, and we come with all the US auto industry to boot.
Milkbagistani@reddit
Tell ya what I'll do. Remove Chrysler / Stellantis from your offer and throw in a Robocop and I should be able to run that past my floor manager. We can sort out the Tigers later.
MIGsalund@reddit
Sold, my friend.
Fernie_Mac_12_22@reddit
We still got some blue, please don't shut us out!!
pali1d@reddit
If Michigan and Minnesota get in, can Wisconsin too? Please? We have good beer!
FamineOLaymine@reddit
Between Michigan and Minnesota, it’s like pinching fingers! Take us with
solaluna451@reddit
And cheese!
babyseamusforever@reddit
California too please.
ChaoticGrouch@reddit
https://www.cnn.com/2025/02/12/europe/danish-petition-purchase-california-scli-intl/index.html
Cass05@reddit
I wouldn't mind being a Danish. Where is Danland anyway? Has it been renamed on Google yet?
Burindo@reddit
Make Spain part of Canada as well, so you guys can come on the winter times to have some sun and paella.
_HighJack_@reddit
“In a dark, dystopian version of our global future, a coalition of transnational corporations, multilateral forces like NATO, and an international financial elite could conceivably forge a single, possibly unstable, supra-national nexus that would make it no longer meaningful to speak of national empires at all. While denationalized corporations and multinational elites would assumedly rule such a world from secure urban enclaves, the multitudes would be relegated to urban and rural wastelands.”
Hah. Hahahahaha. Hah. 🫠
robpensley@reddit
where is the quote from?
Bigtimeknitter@reddit
the article
tawandagames2@reddit
Enter Musk and Thiel
igloohavoc@reddit
Well guess the USA gets what they voted for.
robpensley@reddit
What many idiots voted for, unfortunately.
The ones who didn't are also stuck with the mess.
Healthy-End6354@reddit
“Meanwhile, amid soaring prices, ever-rising unemployment, and a continuing decline in real wages, domestic divisions widen into violent clashes and divisive debates, often over remarkably irrelevant issues. Riding a political tide of disillusionment and despair, a far-right patriot captures the presidency with thundering rhetoric, demanding respect for American authority and threatening military retaliation or economic reprisal.”
Damn they hit the nail right on the coffin here.
bromanski@reddit
I remember this article! It made me feel like an optimist for once, for thinking we’d make it to 2030
Abyss_of_Dreams@reddit
Is it sad that I hope the collapse will forgive my student loans?
Kiss_of_Cultural@reddit
Not included:
Blackinmind@reddit
And the rest of the world is having the biggest schadenfreude of the century
StronglyHeldOpinions@reddit
It's already collapsing right now.
hellotheremiss@reddit
Interesting to see that this is an Alfred W. McCoy article. I primarily know him as an academic specializing on Philippine politics and history. He was editor of this really good book, a pioneering essay collection on Philippine political dynasties, called 'An Anarchy of Families: State and Family in the Philippines.'
jake-asaurus@reddit
Two days before the day after tomorrow. Omg, that’s today!?!
According-Value-6227@reddit
Always remember.
In February of 1991, very few citizens of the USSR expected their country to go extinct by the end of the year.
DonrajSaryas@reddit
I'm told there were quite a few analysts and scholars who did though. They were largely laughed at and written off. Until it happened.
GracchiBros@reddit
Whole lot of wrong in those predictions from 2010 unfortunately.
The USD is still the world's reserve currency. It's share is slowly declining, but no where near being taken over by anyone else.
The US is largely able to supply its own oil. Obviously prices would go to hell if there were some new age oil embargo, but that hasn't happened yet. I really wish they were right about this:
But we're a long way away from anything like that. The US has most nations in the region under its thumb still.
And their WWIII scenario is a complete joke that treats China like some comic book villain.
Darnocpdx@reddit
We won't have the luxury of invading China or the EU decide to ditch the dollar like we did in Iraq..
The international markets have been eyeing and pushing on this benchmark for decades.
rdchat@reddit
Unfortunately, given our current crop of villains, you're going to have to explain in more detail why it's implausible that China could also act like a comic book villain.
GracchiBros@reddit
Because they are a real country with real people acting in their own best interests and not just interested in starting WWIII just to be evil.
symonym7@reddit
And here we are, a net exporter.
Darnocpdx@reddit
A perfect example of the hubris the author mentions
OPEC right now could easily undermine the US oil industry, their crude is easier to drill (no fracking), and cleaner for reduced refinement costs
The price for oil needs to be around, pre-pandemic (admitting I haven't looked recently) likely higher with inflation) $40-50 a barrel for the US oil industry to stay in black, OPEC can remain profitable well below that mark, because their crude is easily accessible and cleaner making extraction and refinement costs much less expensive than our tar sands.
Lately OPEC has been cutting production by almost 500000 barrels each month for the last year or so. Which almost never happens while wars the size of Ukraine are raging.
Part of their cut back equation, is undeniably the success of renewables and the expanding EV market in the world market (were not just behind in these technologies, but have already pretty much already lost these manufacturing and tech industries) .
But they are most likely holding back, waiting for the US oil industry to start hemorrhaging and swoop in and sell it to us at even higher prices, since oil will be even more scarce, simple supply and demand, and our lack of renewable infrastructure will only compound our misery, since there will be no other choices.
Meanwhile, the Saudis are diversifying their portfolios, with a new US golf league - whose first tournament was at Marlargo, with secret documents in the bathroom, Live Nation/Ticketmaster, even US EV manufacturing Lucid.
Instead the US has doubled down on oil, and ignored expanding into technologies (renewable power, EBs, robotics, drones etc) that are shaping the future. Which ultimately leaves exposed to the whims of OPEC and likely Russia.
These_Koala_7487@reddit
Fun fact: Carl Sagan was a heavy weed user. Freaking grade A hero in my book.
RollinThundaga@reddit
Calm, direct, and expository.
Truly a news article from a simpler time.
ggoptimus@reddit
The collapse started a while ago.
basahahn1@reddit
Feels hopelessly real.
Pap3rStreetSoapCo@reddit
I just watched a good video narrated by Richard Wolff in which he talks about how we will soon face a reckoning we just keep prolonging (and thereby worsening) because we simply refuse to admit that the US is in decline and China and India are rising. However, the whole world is having problems right now, and given things like climate change, this may be quite a bit worse than just the fall of the American Empire.
Physical_Opposite445@reddit
Lol I've been seeing those Richard Wolff videos everywhere in my recommendations. They're all titled almost the exact same and I can't tell which ones I've seen already.
Pap3rStreetSoapCo@reddit
Yeah, I noticed that when I was trying to find the other one. It was the first video I’ve seen with him; I’ve always just listened to the podcast.
ListofReddit@reddit
Link it
Mylaur@reddit
https://youtu.be/9u4A0D_Wc9c
I started watching a similar video that mentions that America is on denial whereas the BRICS are rising and dominating the world.
yappingcollies@reddit
https://youtu.be/9u4A0D_Wc9c?si=0oHuWuqzLjZM40Ud
throwawaylurker012@reddit
Pap3rStreetSoapCo@reddit
Wish I could find it, sorry, but he has quite a few videos you can watch. Richard D. Wolff, also does a podcast called Economic Update.
MIGsalund@reddit
Good luck to whomever wants to become king of the ashes.
mnigro@reddit
Saw that. Watched a bunch of Wolffs videos. It all makes so much sense. Wtf have they done!!!?
lovely_sombrero@reddit
US is a consumption based economy. Government cutting services and employees + most of that going to rich people = consumption is going down. Even if no additional tax cuts are passed, government spending going down on direct payments to normal individuals means a cut in real incomes and production.
va_wanderer@reddit
And yet, 2025 will be a far duller decline and collapse than predicted by this article, never mind that what is effectively an internal coup has neutered the United States as a superpower in most senses of the word.
BloodWorried7446@reddit
frustrated by tariffs not working they will invade canada and greenland. The army will be reluctant to invade, the Canadians will resist with lobbing poutine and sending the Americans into PPC (post poutine coma). Distracted by the southern border, Canada will be invaded by Russia. Then we’re all screwed.
MIGsalund@reddit
Russia can't even invade Ukraine. I'd be way more worried about China.
Cass05@reddit
Ok wait a minute.... you say you're going to give us poutine?!
BadUncleBernie@reddit
It won't be poutine. It will be killer drones , IEDs, and sniper rifles.
They can invade, but they will never hold it.
2toxic2comment@reddit
Salon... amazing source.
Pernicious-Peach@reddit
This is an editorial piece, an opinion article by a single author. Not a fact based take that requires sources.
fruitlessideas@reddit
That makes it even worse and nothing more than fear mongering.
StatementBot@reddit
The following submission statement was provided by /u/Empty_Peak_668:
SS: The article is collapse related as it shows why the author thinks America will collapse by 2025. The article lists multiple scenarios ranging from oil shortages to world war 3. The article is from 2010 so the author relates the scenarios to what America was like at the time, making it a very interesting read.
Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/1iqiofz/article_predicting_how_america_could_collapse_by/md0i4ek/
lavapig_love@reddit
As OP mentioned, this article was written fifteen years ago in 2010. It's a safe bet some of our community were just kids then. Enjoy the blast from the past.
Logintheroad@reddit
Is. Is.
texasnebula@reddit
Well damn this was shockingly on point lol.
MikeTheRedditGuy@reddit
Fake and gay. It’s 2025 rn. Pffft
beerstearns@reddit
The predictions around oil are interesting to read. The complete opposite came true and the US has eclipsed every other country in oil and gas production, though it’s an interesting reminder of what was the prevailing fear at the time.
Balerionmeow@reddit
Oh cool a little light reading
oldasdirtss@reddit
Don't worry, 2025 is a long way off.
AxisFlowers@reddit
Google “accelerationism”.
JediMasterReddit@reddit
Spot on accurate. If you consider that Covid was basically a WWIII proxy event instead of an actual kinetic war, the article is accurate almost down to the hour and minute.
Truly scary stuff.
No_Decision9932@reddit
This is the best thing I've read all week. /s
thegreentiger0484@reddit
*will
neuro_space_explorer@reddit
Give this journalist a metal
Empty_Peak_668@reddit (OP)
SS: The article is collapse related as it shows why the author thinks America will collapse by 2025. The article lists multiple scenarios ranging from oil shortages to world war 3. The article is from 2010 so the author relates the scenarios to what America was like at the time, making it a very interesting read.