[UK] Do stick and rudder skills pay your bills?
Posted by TechnoWellieBobs@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 24 comments
Hoping to receive gold nuggets from people who actually work in the industry to aid with career planning. Things I’m keen to learn about:
CFI - money aside, is this job really as bad as this subreddit makes it out to be? I tend to believe we don’t hear from the people that love it, but I want to confirm this.
Modular vs integrated ATPL
Drawbacks as a mega AV-nerd (rose-tinted glasses etc)
Context:
I’ve been fascinated by anything that leaves the ground for as long as I can remember. “Pilot” was always the answer when asked what I wanted to be when I get older.
I got older and accidentally built a decent career in tech. I’ve been very lucky with some of the opportunities that have come my way - I’ve had what some would consider dream jobs. But that sucks, because it’s not my dream.
Procrastinating for 9 years wasn’t on my to-do list but here we are, I’m now a student pilot.
My goal when our company sells is to make my living with a stick or yoke in one hand and throttle in the other. Not jumping between meetings and being someone that I am not.
ltcterry@reddit
Tons of gliding opportunities in the UK. You’d be a great asset in a club one day as an instructor.
It’s also a great way to learn to fly at a reasonable cost.
In the US you can count up to 1,000 glider hours towards 1,500 for ATP. In CAA/EASA Land you get numeric credit for something like “ten percent of glider time, up to three hours” or something similarly dismissive of good experience. But at least your target is 250 rather than 1,500…
CFI in UK-speak is Chief Flight Instructor.
kalnuvejas@reddit
One thing you need to consider is time. Not sure how old are you, but modular -usually- takes longer. But you won't have the loan in the end, if you pay as you go.
Also, all the integrated schools rarely train you in the time-line given in their brochures. E.g. I knew a guy that waited for his CPL for 3 months, integrated. Mechanical issues, weather etc..
TechnoWellieBobs@reddit (OP)
Thankfully I’m 26 with zero responsibilities outside of my career. Things have lined up nicely for me to take this leap.
Interesting to hear that about the integrated course, I will take it into account - nice one.
am_111@reddit
I started my flight training at 26. I opted to go the integrated route as I felt the rigid structure and devoting myself full time to it suited me better. I reasoned the added expense would pay for itself by getting me into an airline seat earlier than if I went modular. It was, at the time, easier to secure loans when attending an integrated program. I’m not sure if that is still the case.
That said, I think more fun can be had learning to fly if you take the modular route. You have complete control over the sort of flying you do, affording you much more freedom. With my integrated course, the cross country hour building element consisted of flying variations of the same big circle with only a handful of airports we were allowed to fly to with only enough time given to refuel and maybe grab a bite to eat from the airport cafe. As the planes needed to be back at the school for the next student we weren’t able to use them as a mode of transport to visit and explore a new town for example. Also, we weren’t allowed passengers as we never held a PPL and our student licenses weren’t endorsed for it so no opportunity to take your mate out on a jolly. Not that any of my non-flying mates were around because the hour building was done in the US. That might not be the case at all integrated schools though.
I don’t regret my choice, I landed a short haul airline job 6 months after I graduated and am now a long haul wide body FO on track to be a captain by my early 40s.
If your ultimate aim is the airlines, there’s no need to become an instructor. However I have come across a couple of pilots that did a bit of instructing because the airlines weren’t hiring when they completed their training. They enjoyed it and it was a way to keep current, remain immersed in aviation and bolster the CV for when hiring did pick up. Unfortunately, having a successful career can sometimes come down to lucky timing. Which is another benefit of the modular route. Particularly if you’re able to do it part time whilst still earning in your current industry. You can pace your training a bit more if you can see the industry slowing down or picking up to try and catch a good wave.
thrfscowaway8610@reddit
Before you do anything else, make sure that you're able to get a Class 1 medical certificate, if you don't have one already.
flywithstephen@reddit
Agree with this - I unfortunately couldn’t obtain my class 1 and later became an FI(S). I also enjoy teaching, but I had to keep my old career to keep the lights on
TechnoWellieBobs@reddit (OP)
Due to family history this was something that I was keen to get out the way asap. Already sorted - thanks for the heads up anyways!
thrfscowaway8610@reddit
Sounds good.
potatochug@reddit
Being an airline pilot in the UK absolutely pays the bills, if that’s your ultimate goal.
Whilst we all moan continuously, it is a good job. You work fewer days per year than the average person and earn more money than the average person.
Have you thought about staying in tech and keeping flying as a hobby? I’m sure some tech positions could outstrip a pilot salary and you can just fly for fun. Airline flying is a different type of flying to recreational flying.
TechnoWellieBobs@reddit (OP)
Thanks for the response!
My current trajectory is a career in tech with a bit of GA on the side. That isn’t what I want which is why I’m working to change it.
Landing an airline gig would be the dream, I’m just too early in my journey to even start thinking about that yet. It’s the bits in between that are of concern.
It’s a long old path so I’m clinging onto whatever wisdom I can find. I have my flight school and a small number of fellow students, but unlike all generations before mine, I can harness the internet to connect with people such as yourself to get a broader perspective on things!
Ps Airbus ftw don’t be giving me that steering wheel
potatochug@reddit
Ahh okay. If that’s the goal, then set your sights firmly on it. Gear your work and mindset on airlines when you’re doing any flight training.
There’s of course some airline sponsored schemes knocking about and MPL schemes, but if you’ve got a good gig in tech, then the modular route may be the one for you so you can earn while you train.
We’re lucky in the UK that we don’t have to go through the faff of being an instructor for years while living on beans. A seat at an airline is potentially only a few years away, depending on your training route.
Either way, make sure you enjoy your training. It can feel intense and pressured, but it’s great fun thrashing low level across this green and pleasant land.
Good luck with it all and feel free to shoot across any other questions.
And yes. The tray table is fantastic. Don’t want to eat off my lap like a common Boeing pilot!
TooLowPullUp@reddit
UK - it's FI, not CFI. Unlike the US, if you are on a training pathway with the aim of flying for the airlines, this will not be part of your journey since you don't need to hour build to 1500. This is typically a job you do because you want to instruct, not because you have to.
I see in your post history you're currently earning £45k. If all goes to plan, your training investment of £70-120k will see you starting on a jet with a salary of £45k upwards - with earnings topping out at about £250k. Not a lot of other jobs in this country that have the same opportunities for salary growth.
Modular v integrated - Depends how much money you have and how much you want to focus on flying. Both take broadly similar amounts of time. Integrated takes all of the planning out of the equation - you just turn up and train when told to, which lets you focus on the exams and actual flying.
TechnoWellieBobs@reddit (OP)
Thanks for the response and correction - very insightful!
I’m a people person with a knack for teaching things, so FI seems ideal for me. However, a couple of instructors have said that they don’t like their jobs and they’re just waiting for the airlines. That, along with various posts I’ve seen here, makes me question what the overall consensus of this role is.
Airlines is of course the end goal, but competition seems hot, which is why I’m prodding about FI stuff. There’s so much work ahead, I need to absorb as much knowledge as possible if it’s going to be worth it!
moaningpilot@reddit
BA is currently recruiting for their cadet scheme. Free ride from 0 hours to right seat A320 in 18 months.
JJAsond@reddit
But you're fucked if you already have hours
TechnoWellieBobs@reddit (OP)
You can apply after you’ve already started your PPL. Never heard of any zero hour policy 🤣
TechnoWellieBobs@reddit (OP)
Every year I apply, I get along pretty well but then I’m outdone by the other thousands of many more talented individuals. I will always try try and try again though
carsgobeepbeep@reddit
Just to be clear, "stick and rudder skills" are not what pays a professional airline pilot's bills. "Aeronautical Decision Making" skills are what they actually get paid for.
While I'm US-based and not an airline pilot myself, I believe professional airline pilots worldwide will probably agree: the reason a senior airline captain might get paid $400K USD a year to fly just a handful of times a month is because they have proven themselves worthy of being entrusted with the huge responsibility of unwaveringly maximizing the chances every flight will be as boring in the air as possible.
This includes making the tough decisions of rejecting potentially unsafe airplanes, changing out crew, delaying or diverting flights due to questionable weather or safety concerns, and at all times demanding safety as the number one priority governing absolutely everything that happens to, because of, or on that aircraft.
Do stick and rudder skills need to be there? You bet, and they get practiced extensively in the simulator. But if an airline pilot can have a 40 year career where every single passenger flight was boring without a single "that was exciting -- really had to use my stick and rudder skills on that one" flight outside of the simulator, they've earned every penny they were paid.
What I mean to say with this post is that if you're dreaming of a flying job where "stick and rudder skills are what ACTUALLY what pay the pilot's bills" depending on what you mean by this you might want to look elsewhere, such as way-more-dangerous-and-not-as-lucrative agricultural flying, very competitive and nearly impossible to get into Test Pilot work, or something like that.
TechnoWellieBobs@reddit (OP)
My question was directed straight at the skills. I’m impartial as to where I might end up being paid to fly, and I’m not too arsed about salary - I live in Wales. I just want to fly (and obviously get paid for it so that I don’t spend my life in offices)
Airlines would be a long term end goal for me but I’d quite like to do something else before that. I’m aware I asked about ATPL stuff, I’m just after opinions as I often hear mixed reviews.
Managing systems to maximise safety and efficiency is incredibly therapeutic for me. All the small decisions and calculations throughout the flight makes my brain feel cosy - that’s the only way I can describe it. The whole idea of making the journey as boring as possible is a demonstration of one’s accuracy which I love (like driving or sailing but obviously levels above).
And to do all this potentially alongside another highly trained individual would meet all the social needs in my job. So, I think this is right for me - stay tuned! And thanks for your insight 🫶
sennais1@reddit
Outside of the US 100%. 1500TT in the circuit means nothing if I have to employ you in a C208.
TechnoWellieBobs@reddit (OP)
This is something that really interests me - thanks for highlighting! I often kick myself for not starting sooner, but my experience to date may prove to be useful
Apprehensive_Cost937@reddit
The thing is that in the USA, people typically must instruct to get to 1500h and become eligible for airline job, so there are a lot of pilots, who don't want or even can't really teach, that have to become instructors, because that's more or less the only path to the airlines. In Europe, most people go straight from flight school to the airlines, so there's a lot more people who want to teach. The bar to teach for anything other than PPL (e.g. CPL, IR, ME) is also a lot higher under EASA/UK licencing system, so there are quite a few career instructors around.
TechnoWellieBobs@reddit (OP)
These are some great points. Appreciate your insight - thanks!
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
Hoping to receive gold nuggets from people who actually work in the industry to aid with career planning. Things I’m keen to learn about:
Context:
I’ve been fascinated by anything that leaves the ground for as long as I can remember. “Pilot” was always the answer when asked what I wanted to be when I get older.
I got older and accidentally built a decent career in tech. I’ve been very lucky with some of the opportunities that have come my way - I’ve had what some would consider dream jobs. But that sucks, because it’s not my dream.
Procrastinating for 9 years wasn’t on my to-do list but here we are, I’m now a student pilot.
My goal when our company sells is to make my living with a stick or yoke in one hand and throttle in the other. Not jumping between meetings and being someone that I am not.
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