Will SIC (FO) hours on an A320 at an LCC outside the U.S. count toward the 250 PIC/SIC hours required under 14 CFR §61.159(a)(5) for an ATP certificate for U.S Airlines?
Posted by SDN_General@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 37 comments
Hey everyone, am asking this question for those of you who are familiar with the process.
I am U.S citizen (fresh CPL) but am planning to work as a FO at an LCC in a foreign country before I return to the U.S. The ATP licence required by the FAA to work for an airline requires a minimum of 250 hours of PIC or SIC who can temporarily act as the PIC.
I've had some people tell me that these hours logged in as a F.O might not count as legit hours required for the ATP license and all this time am going to log in is all worthless, so is this all true?
minfremi@reddit
Do you have a definite in to this foreign job (if so I think we’d like details), or are you just saying that you’re gonna find a job abroad (you haven’t done you’re research ahh mmm)?
SDN_General@reddit (OP)
No am just planning, I am pretty confident I will tho since many I know got in and they didn't have a better resume than me. Only U.S Airlines won't put you in a right seat of an A320 with only 250 hours in a cessna 172.
lordtema@reddit
Do you have a right to work in any other country?..
SDN_General@reddit (OP)
I do have one in an african country since am a citizen of that nation as well but am quite sure alot of these LCC airlines will give sponsor your visa since many of them are dependent on foreign pilots and not national ones like in the middle east LCCs for example.
FlowerGeneral2576@reddit
Let me make a small correction to that statement: they’re dependent on foreign pilots with experience, which you don’t have. Get the job and then worry about the logging.
SDN_General@reddit (OP)
Actually, as long as you get a type rating with your own money (you will end up paying for it anyways either from your pocket or taken from your salary). These airlines won't give a fuck if you have hours in that certain type or not especially if it's shithole airline which I have no problem staying in for a year or two.
It's better than being in the U.S and paying 10k for your cfi licenses and then instructing and hating your life for the next 2 years(it's no secret anymore that most CFIs out there hate absloutely everything about their job)
FlowerGeneral2576@reddit
If it was so simple and surefire, many would do it, notably the people that make the multiple daily posts on this sub asking about building time abroad as an American.
SDN_General@reddit (OP)
Its because no one wants to do a job their being forced to do, and they also get paid shit to do it + 2 years of their lifetime. It's all because of this retarded and unnecessary 1500-rule.
FlowerGeneral2576@reddit
I say this as someone who has been in this industry for a while that is speaking to someone who is 17 years old and has had no experience in this industry: you don’t know what you’re talking about. The only people that don’t appreciate the 1500 hour rule are the ones that don’t know how bad it was before the 1500 hour rule.
SDN_General@reddit (OP)
I didn't say it was going to fix it. No country on earth besides the U.S does this. the reason why the FAA made the 1500 rule was ultimately to improve pilot safety and experience after the 2009 crash of Colgan Air Flight 3407 and not because the job market, which has resulted in almost no improvements whatsoever.
And also age and more time spent in said field doesn't necessitate more knowledge. I go around and talk about religion and theology to people who spent decades doing so and most of the time they turn out to be retarded and intellectually molested individuals who don’t have a single clue. Even tho you might actually be more knowledgeable in the aviation industry, this is not a general rule.
BeenThereDoneThat65@reddit
Wow. You are going to go far in this industry especially when you tell People with massive amounts of experience that you with NO experience know better…
SDN_General@reddit (OP)
I didn't say that, I never said that. You might genuinely wanna go and see a doctor for dyslexia diagnosis, just pray you won't lose that ATPL when you do that.
What I said is that it's not a general rule because someone spent more time in a particular field or industry that wouldn't necessitate him having superior knowledge.
Additionally to him pointing to the fact am way younger than him, I told him that it was never a general rule that being older = more knowledge by pointing to the fact that we live with academically and intellectually subserviant "human beings" walking with us.
BeenThereDoneThat65@reddit
No dyslexia there at all.
Like I said, youre going to have a hard time in this industry with your attitude
SDN_General@reddit (OP)
It's the Internet. People be mean to you for no reason so am just doing the same. You can see that yourself scrolling down this thread, I was just asking questions when they all decided to jump on me for absloutely no reason.
BeenThereDoneThat65@reddit
LOL, Or you‘re not smart enough, and lack the experience and expertise to understand what is being said.
You‘re “Scheme” to circumvent the hours requirements Doesn’t work. License conversions take time, foreign airlines hire locals first long before they hire via Visas.
Like I have been saying, you are going to have a very tough time doing it this way and then when you come back. It’s not like the airlines and 135/91 operators dont know what you were trying to do
SDN_General@reddit (OP)
Building hours towards the airlines is going to be a pain in the ass regardless, it's no hidden secret.
And licence conversions and visa problems is no worse than paying 10k for CFI licences and being forced to do a job you hate and get paid shit at the same time for the next 2 years.
You're life in these few years are going to be hell anyways so I thought while I wait till I land a job, I might just wanna complete my bachelor degree (which is crucial for the majors) whether online or in person. So this will actually make me get to the majors much faster and you can't deny that.
And by praying and being patience, hopefully it all goes according to plan.
BeenThereDoneThat65@reddit
And yet I fly Gulfstream and NEVER instructed.
You do you, but don't cry when you don't get the job you think you are entitled too
findquasar@reddit
Do you know people who have done this successfully? I’d be a little concerned about the stain of a “shithole airline” following me around vs. other pilots who are not thus encumbered.
A reputable foreign carrier, sure. I’ve seen plenty of success in the US with those.
Not a criticism, genuinely curious. I’ve just never met anyone at any of my multiple airlines with the “shithole” background.
SDN_General@reddit (OP)
It's because this is not a famous route. And yes, I do know many people who started their career in LCCs in Vietnam, Indonisia, Philippines, and other countries than came back to the U.S and eventually ended up in a major.
And what I mean by "shithole airline", is any airline someone might not be interested in working for because it's based in a country no one wants to live in. That's why most of these airlines are desperate for pilots and would hire any fresh CPLs with a type rating.
The most important factor when it finds to major airlines hiring is the amounts of flight hours in type. It doesn't matter which airline and which country do you did that in.
findquasar@reddit
Again, I’ve met plenty of pilots who come from more reputable overseas operations. It’s far from rare.
You’re not inventing something new, except perhaps being less selective about where you do work, which is why I am asking if you’ve seen folks do this successfully.
That is demonstrably not true, as you have to complete each US airline’s course from scratch anyway, no matter how many hours you have on an existing type. You may not get assigned a fleet you have time in, so they’re more concerned about your overall fit and success in training.
Things like a solid professional checkride record, a degree, qualifications such as being an LCA, volunteerism (external or with the union,) and networking all play a part in an interview and hiring decision, among other factors.
There could be concerns about safety culture or CRM affecting your overall fit, depending on where you end up. So I would just… choose wisely.
lordtema@reddit
I do hope that you have researched this properly because the general consensus is that it takes a lot of time to convert your licenses, and you will probably have to stay at said airline for way longer than the 1500h required for the ATPL.
SDN_General@reddit (OP)
I know converting licenses can be a pain in the ass but believe me, this is much better than being forced to instruct for 2 years, and most of CFIs out there hate their job and are only doing it to build hours to reach the airlines, this is no secret anymore.
On the other hand, doing my plan will not only make you gain experience in the airline industry, but will also make you gain crucial hours that are flown in a plane with MTOW of 30,000 kg or higher which will make you competitive for the majors and will also hugely reduce the time you gotta spend in a regional which is highly beneficial for seniority.
lordtema@reddit
Converting to an EASA license will take you at least a year in and itself, a year where your peers have been instructing and gaining hours and experience.
Keep in mind that you will have to pay for your TR, either straight up or via a bond, which if i remember correctly is usually around 3 years to pay off.
Also competition is stiff most places, dont expect to walk in with 250 hours and land a job, many pilots in Europe also has to instruct for a year or two before getting hired.
SDN_General@reddit (OP)
That's why don't wanna go to Europe, I am mainly focused in middle Eastern carriers as well as east and Southeast Asian ones. Converting licenses there is more simpler since they're aware that most of their airlines are dependent on foreign pilots unlike European carriers
lordtema@reddit
...Are you aware of how INSANELY competitive the ME / SEA market is? This sounds like one of those plans that sounds really good in theory but has a fatal flaw in it.
Just suck it up and instruct until you hit mins and then instruct some more before hopefully youll end up at a 135 or a regional, because i dont think youll have particularly good chances at being hired in SEA / ME with 250h lol
SDN_General@reddit (OP)
There are many airlines in other shithole countries that I see myself having a chance for (spending 1-2 years there is no big deal for me), even with my 250 hours since am planning to pay for my own type rating (you'll end paying for it anyways either its taken from your salary or you pay for it from your pocket)
I hate instructing with a passion, you get paid shit, you work long hours, you get blamed for whatever disaster your students might do, and you're forced to do it and any job out there regardless of field if youre being forced you will never enjoy it and will always hate it so I don't really see myself doing it ever. If things don't work out for me I might wanna just fly cargo or maybe skydiving or any other idea.
lordtema@reddit
Again, the salary you will be making as a CFI / CFII is likely to be greater than the salary you hypothetically would have been making at a lowco in SEA / ME.
I seriously advice you to take a trip to PPRUNE and look at how the hiring environment is in the ME / SEA, because its suuuuuper competitive and you are not gonna walk in there as a foreigner and just get hired, regardless of you holding a typerating (which is useless without experience)
SDN_General@reddit (OP)
I am mainly aiming towards the ME airlines since I speak the local language and enjoy these countries. Speaking their language is hugely beneficial and can definitely make me more competitive.
There are many LCCs in the middle east and almost all fly a320s with even some new ones are opening soon. I will also be finishing my online bachelor degree while patiently waiting and by praying and patience, I am confident my plan won't fall of.
BeenThereDoneThat65@reddit
Hahahah. Training contracts have entered the chat
Many of those operators have a minimum of three year training contracts
Rafikis_Ass@reddit
Remindme! 2 years
SDN_General@reddit (OP)
Lmaoooooo, why did you do that
Rafikis_Ass@reddit
You're either gonna be a TikTok hype train or really skilled on a 737-200. Either way, I wanna hear the story.
SDN_General@reddit (OP)
I'll make sure atleast you won't become disappointed captain.
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kiloalpha@reddit
Read 61.51(j). In fact, just read all of it so you are familiar with how to log time.
SDN_General@reddit (OP)
I read it all. I didn't see anything related to pilots who log their hours as FOs as frozen ATPL holders in a foreign country. That's why am asking this question to those who are familiar with this process instead.
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
Hey everyone, am asking this question for those of you who are familiar with the process.
I am U.S citizen (fresh CPL) but am planning to work as a FO at an LCC in a foreign country before I return to the U.S. The ATP licence required by the FAA to work for an airline requires a minimum of 250 hours of PIC or SIC who can temporarily act as the PIC.
I've had some people tell me that these hours logged in as a F.O might not count as legit hours required for the ATP license and all this time am going to log in is all worthless, so is this all true?
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