a question to pilots about landings, emergency landings specifically
Posted by Aggressive-Idea9509@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 39 comments
When you were training for emergency procedures, how much emphasis was given to terrain-based landings versus runway landings? Do you think enough time was spent on off-airport landings?
chuckop@reddit
During my private pilot checkride, the examiner made a point of going much lower than normal during the engine-out procedure in order to allow me to see up-close the features of the fieldI had picked. As we climbed out from about 200 feet AGL he said “it looks way worse when you’re up close. take that into account when choosing a field.”
sniper4273@reddit
Your post history is almost entirely about off field landings, is something bothering you about them?
I had plenty of practice choosing spots to land, and setting up the approach to land off field. However our school only let us go down to 500' feet. Even if it was a dirt airstrip, couldn't land off field. So I do in fact have zero actual experience landing on anything other than a paved runway. And yes, this was indeed a large Part 141 school. The (in)famous college one in AZ.
I've made it to the airlines, so a grass runway is on the bucket list for someday.
Aggressive-Idea9509@reddit (OP)
i mean yes i've been thinking about them a lot and they make me anxious, i might attend flight school next year so i've been looking through stuff that's taught there and off field landings just caught my attention, so i wanted to learn about them as much as i could.
so, replying to the stuff you mentioned, you were taught to choose the spots but never to land? how do you think that worked out for you ahead like reading all these replies i've come to realise that these kinds of landing aren't really a big problem especially when training,,,am i right to think like that?
sniper4273@reddit
The intent was to practice doing everything except the landing itself, the flight school viewed the actual landing as too dangerous, especially with the frequency of how often it's practiced.
I won't say it's a trivial maneuver, it's one of the more complex maneuvers on the check ride. But it's perhaps not as big a deal as you make it out to be. You're gonna practice it with an instructor a lot before the check ride, hopefully to the point of being completely comfortable with it. I wouldn't even call it the scariest maneuver on the PPL ride, stalls are a thing.
Aggressive-Idea9509@reddit (OP)
okay, makes sense! thanks a lot!
bhalter80@reddit
I often teach engine outs where there are lots of good off airport options and an airport right at the edge of the glide range as a distraction. I want to see students make the risk decision that being in control and landing off field is better than potentially coming up short and stall/spin while trying to go for the airport.
The Glider Flying Handbook has good information on off airport landings because it's a normal op for them.
In an airplane if you're landing off airport it's all about landing at the slowest possible speed to reduce energy that you have to absorb but don't prioritize the airplane being reusable, in those circumstances the airplane already belongs to the insurance company
Aggressive-Idea9509@reddit (OP)
okay that seems like such a good test!! + I'll be checking out the glider flying handbook fs then!
bhalter80@reddit
Usually I do it right after they've been distracted for long enough to lose situational awareness of where we are like doing basic attitude instrument work or unusual attitudes. Enough to get them to lose track of navigation and then have to reconstruct state all at once like if we were on a long cruise segment and they got bored. That way you get full reptile brain
Aggressive-Idea9509@reddit (OP)
ohh that sounds too good! what kind of responses do you get? like they end up going for the airport i suppose?
bhalter80@reddit
They usually go to the airport, so it's a good debrief discussion. The airport is makes Le and they're usually in a position to land but it's an unnecessary amount of work
Aggressive-Idea9509@reddit (OP)
aa makes sense! must be a good practice to keep them on their toes and spatially aware
have there been instances of the FF set up wrong during this exercise? like any experience you've had w this happening?
bhalter80@reddit
Wrong plane selected so it showed the wrong glide ring or wrong best glide speed
Aggressive-Idea9509@reddit (OP)
aaa okok
sunny5222@reddit
Why are you perseverating on emergency landing sites, of all topics? Why is that something that disproportionately scares you?
spacecadet2399@reddit
It's about 50% of all the PPL training, honestly. At my school, it was introduced prior to soloing, was reinforced on pretty much every lesson afterwards and by the end of PPL, it was basically all of the last 3 or 4 lessons.
Some people don't really need that much, to be honest - it's actually not really that hard to remove the "skill" part of it from the equation. There's always going to be some luck involved when landing off-airport. There could be a rock just big enough to break your landing gear that you have no way to see from even 1,000 feet up, for example. But the actual procedures and decision-making are really pretty simple. We over-train it, but we do so for a reason.
You seem to be asking a lot of questions over the last couple days related to landing off-airport. Is there something you're specifically concerned about?
Shot_Astronaut_9894@reddit
I’ve only landed at an official paved airport 3 or 4 times in the last couple years.
I practice for off airport landings.
If you’re concerned about off airport emergency landings, the biggest “gotcha” on them, you won’t likely know about until you’re in the flare, so you’re committed anyway.
fumo7887@reddit
If possible, land in line with the crop rows, not across them.
blame_lagg@reddit
And avoid vineyards if at all possible, they will bang you up pretty good.
bhalter80@reddit
Soybeans and potato plants are best
Aggressive-Idea9509@reddit (OP)
noted noted
csl512@reddit
Oh, you're not even in training yet?
Wait until you cover that in your training. You won't be sent solo until your instructor has taught you enough about non-airport landings.
VillageIdiotsAgent@reddit
I'd say most of my early emergency procedures were "off airport." The instructor would pull the engine to idle to simulate a failure, and I'd go through the procedures to trim best glide speed, find a suitable landing site, and then try to restart the engine. In that order.
It's a very "mushy" subject to get too far into the weeds regarding what makes one field better than another, and in many ways it's worse to over-analyze it. You don't want to spend too much time and attention trying to decide if a corn field is better than a hay field, etc., meanwhile you're losing altitude and time to set yourself up successfully. The general approach to it is to find a suitable field, and commit to it. The focus needs to be on flying the airplane, as an airplane flown under control to a less-than-perfect field has a better chance of survival than one crashed into a perfect field. There is room to change your mind if an obviously better option becomes apparent, but it had better be obviously better. An example I could think of is that you choose a farm field off your left wing, turn towards it, and then see an airport that was right behind you when you first looked. That's worth changing the plan, provided you can glide to the airport confidently.
Obviously we wouldn't go all the way to the landing, just to a point where there was no doubt we would make the field, and we would climb back out and go on to the next thing.
Classic_Ad_9985@reddit
You’re at let’s say 5,000’, engine quits and won’t restart. You see a nice big green grassy area. You descend, fly a normal pattern of possible around to your spot and land. It’s just like setting up to land on a runway expect you have to land. I wouldn’t overthink it.
Aggressive-Idea9509@reddit (OP)
okay that helps a lot to calm my nerves haha
Classic_Ad_9985@reddit
I think your question might also come from the fact of not knowing that planes are gliders with engines. The C172 glide ratio is 1.5nm for every 1,000’. You don’t fall out of the sky. Lift doesn’t require en engine
Reasonable_Blood6959@reddit
Flying single engine, quite a lot of practice on selecting a field, managing energy, etc.
Airlines, zero practical training on “terrain based landings”. There’s a section in the manual on ditching, that’s it. I don’t really see the need or benefit for any more time than that
Aggressive-Idea9509@reddit (OP)
when you say practice on selecting a field, what do mean? like yes i get it, but what kind of trainings took place, did it involve understanding the right features of the terrain that are right for landings?
like uhh, tell me more, i've been thinking quite a bit about these kind of landings and it makes me anxious as to when im put in that situation and given the task to land in unidentified terrain in an emergency...
Reasonable_Blood6959@reddit
I think you’re over complicating things. Analysing terrain changes at altitude is notoriously difficult. You’re looking for a relatively flat, preferably obstacle free area, that you can reach. The goal at this point isn’t to use the aeroplane again. It’s an emergency, you’re never going to find somewhere as perfect as a runway.
Like anything, it’ll come with practice. Don’t sweat it. Eventually you’ll get to the point where you’re flying along with your instructor, they’ll reach over, pull the power to idle, and you’ll just roll your eyes and say “ffs again?” rather than panic. Because you’ll have the mental capacity to have already picked a spot.
You’ll feel more comfortable when you do it for real, some people freak about practicing stalls, some people freak about their first landing, then do it and it’s no big deal. It’s great you’re thinking ahead, but don’t make it more in your head than it needs to be.
Aggressive-Idea9509@reddit (OP)
ohh so it comes with practice and experience? starting to get it, maybe one day i'll conduct a landing like that and finally sigh with relief
Reasonable_Blood6959@reddit
Literally everything in this hobby/job/whatever you plan to do with a licence comes with practice and experience. You’ll be taught absolutely everything you need to know.
Any_Purchase_3880@reddit
No we're not studying geography to determine the best type of terrain to land on. Is it flat and is it big enough are the two considerations. The rest of training is spent developing safe flying practices like choosing areas for maneuvers within power of gliding distance of an acceptable field/golf course/highway etc., and learning how to restart the engine and safely crash land the plan (I.e cutoff the fuel etc). Sometimes you find yourself in situations though that would really suck if your engine died like flying through mountainous regions at night. It's a risk you need to become comfortable with.
Aggressive-Idea9509@reddit (OP)
aa makes sense! i just made this stuff up to be too big than it actually is i guess
InGeorgeWeTrust_@reddit
It’s talked about quite a bit from PPL through commercial.
Restarting in the air, securing the engine, gliding and finding the best field are all important skills.
Aggressive-Idea9509@reddit (OP)
ohhhh okkkay!
kurtkobraindead@reddit
If I land in a field I will probably die, so we don’t really talk about it
Aggressive-Idea9509@reddit (OP)
yes that is kinda my fear, so i just obsessively look through possible landing sites in case something goes wrong
kurtkobraindead@reddit
I’m probably in a slightly different situation than you. There are a billion examples of people making safe, off runway landings in GA aircraft, I would stress about it too hard
DisregardLogan@reddit
Flair checks out
rFlyingTower@reddit
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When you were training for emergency procedures, how much emphasis was given to terrain-based landings versus runway landings? Do you think enough time was spent on off-airport landings?
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