Workplace environment after denying a plane? (Airlines)

[-]

grumpycfi@reddit

At the airlines? It's basically a non-event. You tell whoever you're supposed to tell (a manager on duty, maintenance people, etc.) that you're not taking the plane and why. They find you a replacement or not, you find out from scheduling what's next, generally file some kind of safety report or whatever for record keeping, and move on. Occasionally some other crew member might be annoyed because it disrupts their schedule but the job is safety and that's when you make the hard call. The minimal pushback I've seen or gotten from a mechanic or airplane scheduler evaporated once it became clear we weren't gonna be bullied.

At least that all assumes a vaguely healthy safety culture. If not, such as some shitty bottom barrel operators, it can make life a little challenging, but that's basically gonna be companies you've never heard of.

[-]

Massive-Page-2057@reddit

At least that all assumes a vaguely healthy safety culture. If not, such as some shitty bottom barrel operators, it can make life a little challenging, but that's basically gonna be companies you've never heard of.

I wouldn't be so sure. I worked the better part of a decade in fleet management for a legacy airline that everyone has heard of. As an engineer, I had the authority to provide the mechanics with authorization to deviate from the manufacturer's approved documentation when they needed to defer a defect. It wasn't uncommon for someone higher up the chain to apply pressure when I said "no".

For example, one night I got a call because the seal depressor on a cargo door was damaged and they wanted to fly trans-oceanic like that. I was confident that the pressurization system could handle the leak, and the damage certainly wasn't structural, but I wasn't confident that the fire suppression system could handle the leak so I said no. The guy in maintenance operations control got all ragey with me when I told they'd have to repair the seal depressor prior to further flight, shouting into the phone "ARE YOU SAYING THAT THERE'S GOING TO BE A FIRE ON THIS FLIGHT?". That didn't change my mind. Had I let it go, the mechanics would have written the damage up in the logbook and would have signed it off as deferred per blah, blah, blah. The flight crew would probably never know that the basis of the deferral was sketchy and was given under duress.

And as much as I wish I could say that was a one-off, it wasn't. Pressure to let stuff fly happened all the time. That's why I quit.

[-]

flagsfly@reddit

I just wanted to add that I'm probably at a different legacy at the same job. While MOC or mechanics sometimes might get pushy, the airline as a whole and especially the engineering organization does not hold my refusals against me. There are times where higher ups or other engineers disagreed but I'm never pressured. They are always welcome to release the plane using their signature if they feel comfortable doing it after we have a discussion about our reasoning, I'm just not giving mine if I don't feel like I can justify it and I'll write up a damn good log for why I think it's wrong. I feel good about our safety culture. The people that have the ability to pressure me (my boss and their boss etc) never do. MOC and mechanics I just laugh and say well I'm not signing it so do what you want and hang up.

For a seal depressor issue though, I mean Boeing has a very very permissive SRM repair that involves speed taping a doubler onto the depressor and letting it fly for 50 hours.

[-]

Massive-Page-2057@reddit

Yeah, but the mechanics don't need me to give them an authorization to follow the SRM. They can do that on their own. In this case, MOC wanted to let it fly without doing anything. It was one of those times when the aircraft was ready to push and they thought they could brow-beat me into letting it fly after they'd made all their promises that it was OK.

[-]

grumpycfi@reddit

I appreciate that. I'm not saying safety culture everywhere or anywhere is perfect or even close to it. But the general attitude of refusing a plane or whatever is different at American than Ameriflight.

[-]

__joel_t@reddit

At least that all assumes a vaguely healthy safety culture. If not, such as some shitty bottom barrel operators, it can make life a little challenging, but that's basically gonna be companies you've never heard of.

Also known as companies you don't want to work for.

[-]

Oregon-Pilot@reddit

I’ve seen not pushback per se, but the mechanics definitely tried to say the plane was fine, and that they weren’t going to ground it. Captain said no, it’s not fine because the issue kept coming up and no one could say why. Healthy airplanes don’t do [whatever the issue was].

There’s also some ALPA doc out there that recommends crew refuse an aircraft without certain problems, even if they can be deferred. A broken APU, for example. This is one where I’ve seen captains go both ways. Some adhere to the document and just won’t do it. Others won’t do it if it’s in a Mx base (why not fix it - we have a facility here, etc). Others will look at conditions (daytime, good wx, etc? Sure we will take it. Lots of weather, all night flying? Nope.) I’d be curious what other airline pilots here think about such things.

But in all these cases, guess who has the final authority and responsibility for the aircraft, and who will be left holding the bag if something goes wrong and the FAA comes knocking?? The PIC of that flight.

[-]

Due-Musician-3893@reddit

It’s typically professionally handled and just a mere inconvenience to everyone. Scheduling will find a different tail to continue the trip, usually with a delay and the original plane will be deferred to maintenance to correct the issue, and then returned to service eventually. Most of the time it’s something that cannot be MEL’d, I seldom see anything that’s glaringly unsafe.

[-]

apoplectickitty@reddit

It would be dispatch that looks for a substitute aircraft, but if you’re at a “one flight per day” destination they’ll have to fly in maintenance techs or a new plane.

It’s really terrible when the plane breaks while at a tropical destination in the winter.

[-]

mmo76@reddit

At most majors/legacy airline we have a separate department that handles the aircraft swaps (thankfully).

[-]

jettech737@reddit

For at risk flights they sometimes bring a ride along mechanic with his tools and a few common spare parts in the cargo compartment, so when you are ready to refuse the plane the mechanic pops his cabin in the cockpit and says "I changed the part and we're good to go"

[-]

HotRecommendation283@reddit

What’s the game plan when that happens?

[-]

apoplectickitty@reddit

Oh it’s horrible. We have to go back to our hotel and then go to the beach or the pool for the day.

[-]

Due-Musician-3893@reddit

head to the all-inclusive resort !

[-]

jettech737@reddit

Sometimes the MEL remains and the next crew for a different flight takes it no problem. If two crews in a row refuse it then it gets taken out of service to clear the MEL.

[-]

trying_to_adult_here@reddit

Dispatcher here: We don’t mind. Sometimes it makes our lives easier when you refuse the plane. Just say the magic words “I am refusing the aircraft” so we can tell the equipment coordinator and they can find a new plane or delay the flight until the current plane is fixed.

[-]

mmo76@reddit

I’ve initiated many swaps out of refusal to send a broken APU airplane to PHX/LAS in the middle of the summer. Obviously the captain was completely on board with my decision. Most of those flights were delayed due to aircraft availability but it didn’t matter to me. What’s legal doesn’t always mean what’s safe. To be honest, APU MEL’s should have a temperature limit as a dispatch concurrence item.

[-]

AceofdaBase@reddit

Maintenance and the gate agents are the ones who get pissed mostly

[-]

80KnotsV1Rotate@reddit

Define safety reasons? I’ve only denied one plane in the dead of summer in a crj-200 with no apu. Everyone agreed that wasn’t gonna work. If it can be MEL’d we go, if not they fix it. Can’t find a good reason to deny a plane otherwise.

[-]

William-Boot@reddit

Can’t find a good reason to deny a plane otherwise.

How about deferred autopilot and auto throttle on an already delayed 5 hour red eye leg?

[-]

InGeorgeWeTrust_@reddit

You think there’s AT on a 200? lol

[-]

William-Boot@reddit

Read my post again, I didn’t mention a 200 anywhere. It’s a theoretical reason to deny a plane in general

And yes I’m aware. None of the CRJ series has auto throttle. I flew that plane for years

[-]

HotRecommendation283@reddit

Without AT are you hands on constantly?

[-]

pooserboy@reddit

With climb thrust the plane will adjust pitch to hold a speed that’s set, cruise you have to play with it a little bit to keep the speed in the bug but generally it’s not that hard. Just make small adjustments and keep your eye on the speed. Descents are probably the most “hands on” because sometimes you need to adjust your vertical speed to make certain crossing/speed restrictions but it’s still not that hard. People make having no AT sound way harder than it actually is, especially for small hops that the CRJ usually does. Even on longer legs it’s not bad

[-]

Yesthisisme50@reddit

Either you’re fit to fly or too tired. We all should be able to fly an aircraft with no AP or AT.

[-]

f1racer328@reddit

You can't deny that flying with no AP/AT will wear you out faster than normal. It's more mentally taxing.

[-]

Yesthisisme50@reddit

So then someone is too tired to say they’re fit for duty. Which is what I’ve been saying the whole time

[-]

Plastic_Brick_1060@reddit

So if you show up with fully functional at/aps but you think that if those both go u/s, you'll be too tired, you're gonna call in fatigued? I'd love to be a fly on the wall for that one

[-]

Yesthisisme50@reddit

I never said I’d be too tired lol

You should brush up on your reading comprehension

[-]

Plastic_Brick_1060@reddit

Good one

[-]

Yesthisisme50@reddit

I had a big month last month. I think I might have some money leftover if you want me to spot your first month of Hooked on Phonics?

[-]

Plastic_Brick_1060@reddit

Keep the comedy gold coming

[-]

Yesthisisme50@reddit

I’d have to start charging

[-]

William-Boot@reddit

It’s not a matter of ability. It’s a matter of not accepting the unnecessarily risk in an already high risk environment.

[-]

Yesthisisme50@reddit

You sign a statement that you’re fit to fly. If you’re too tired to be a pilot then you should take yourself out of that situation and get some sleep at the hotel.

[-]

NeatFair8764@reddit (OP)

I guess that’s just my lack of knowledge in the actual setting of the airlines, so maybe that was part of my question as well and what I’m looking to have answered but didn’t know how to word it.

[-]

InGeorgeWeTrust_@reddit

You make the call and whatever happens, happens.

I’ll rather be delayed for days before I fly a plane that’s unsafe.

But realistically a good captain will have a conversation with the FO. Doesn’t need to be long just a “here’s what I see, here’s what would happen and this is why I’m making my decision. What are your thoughts”

[-]

cjonesaf@reddit

FO most definitely has a say. I - when I was an FO - told my CA that I wouldn’t fly an airplane with a flight control issue that he was planning to accept. We had a good and professional discussion about it, and I ultimately told him that if he was accepting the airplane, the airline would have to call out a reserve (we were at a hub), because I wasn’t flying it. He ultimately refused the airplane, which really isn’t the point. Point is that FOs can and should determine what they feel is unsafe and what they will accept, even though the CA ultimately determines aircraft status.

[-]

Prof_Slappopotamus@reddit

That sounds exactly like an issue I had as an FO, except it was an outstation maintenance base. Been in the hangar for 3 days and when we tested the trim that morning both up and down moved the trim up. Curiously, when we split the trim switches, it went down.

Only reason it happened as an FO was because I was getting ready to upgrade and the CA said to do the acceptance check and he'd go get coffee and the walk around.

[-]

PullDoNotRotate@reddit

the ops check here was quite obviously KO

[-]

PullDoNotRotate@reddit

Watch me refuse by packing my bag and leaving the jet.

There, that was easy.

[-]

retardhood@reddit

Where I work, the FO can refuse to fly a plane as well. No one puts a gun to your head.

[-]

EdBasqueMaster@reddit

Definitely.

Captain is more than welcome to take it but at most (if not all?) legacies/majors the FO is more than welcome to say thanks but no thanks. No APU and you want us to fly out of 120° Vegas in July and it’s already nearly 100 in the cabin? I’d be a hard pass on that one.

[-]

retardhood@reddit

The no APU thing is definitely #1. I am amazed how many people lean forward with "oh it will be good, they have external air hooked up." I definitely was at an outstation more than once last summer where a crew flew an APU inop bird out of one of our hot bases. Disgraceful.

[-]

EdBasqueMaster@reddit

Yeah definitely one of those ones where I wish I’d see more FOs speak up. But I also get the pressure when you’re flying with some super mission oriented guy and have become a professional chameleon. Easy to say, hard to do.

I feel the same way with getting jumpseaters on. FOs absolutely can and should make the walk. If you have to go take a 30 minute bathroom break or get food while the gate agent figures out how to list that Cape Air guy for the jump then no big deal. We’re all adults.

[-]

SkurweHakskeen@reddit

🤣the infamous Cape Air jumpseaters

[-]

Mech_145@reddit

It’s even better when they fly it into a station that doesn’t have an air cart, and they just leave #2 at idle for the turn.

[-]

IndependenceStock417@reddit

Our PCA units down here in the South are not enough. Can't use air from the air start unit for too long or it'll overheat and possibly send fumes into the cabin

[-]

retardhood@reddit

Ours barely can maintain temp in the hot summer, let alone lower the temp. Almost a lost cause.

[-]

fishbait32@reddit

Unfortunately not at AA. I tried to refuse a broken APU jet on a warm August day and chief said it’s ultimately the CA’s decision to refuse after collaborating with FO. I tried to talk to the CA especially after him and I talked to inbound deadheaders and aft FA’s who said it was miserable. CA listened to the inbound CA who only said he looked at the temp gauge and said it was “ok”. As if the people working in the cabin weren’t a reliable source of info, even if they potentially could be “dramatic”. I looked at the CA and said are you seriously taking this jet still after what we heard? He’s like yup. SMH.

In the moment chief said I couldn’t refuse the plane only CA could. If I’m refusing to fly then that’s another can of worms. I’m like whelp I don’t want to get in trouble but if some old lady passes out in the back then that’s really on AA then.

Chief texts later an apology and clarifies that they routed the jet to “cooler” destinations away from mountainous terrain which is why we got it to another hub. Saying they tried to fix it in one base but couldn’t so ordered parts and sent ahead to the base the jet would end up that day. And 7 other airplanes went down that day so we wouldn’t have had any other plane to switch in to. (Which isn’t my problem). He said his non pilot friends have told him that people would rather get to their destination and be uncomfortable on the flight than not get there at all. He agreed it isn’t the best way to do business.

That definitely wasn’t the best day at work.

[-]

jabbs72@reddit

Kinda funny but with my career progression but from my 135 to mainline the workplace environment has gotten more lax about it.

Charter? You're fired. Seriously, had a captain denied a plane because our auto pilot malfunctioned and he wrote it up. The company wanted us to fly from LAS-PHX-MSN in the middle of the night with no auto pilot. No thanks. He ended up getting his job back a week later.

Regional? You were definitely going to get a phone call from the CPO but not a disciplinary action... But you were probably on the naughty list.

Mainline? Dispatch has actually refused a plane on our behalf... And the captain was like I would have taken it 🤷🏻‍♂️.

[-]

ChicagoPilot@reddit

Regional? You were definitely going to get a phone call from the CPO but not a disciplinary action... But you were probably on the naughty list.

What regional was that? I denied stuff at my regional a handful of times and never once heard anything from the CPO.

[-]

jabbs72@reddit

🦅

[-]

DinkleBottoms@reddit

If it makes you feel any better they’re still like that

[-]

Plastic_Brick_1060@reddit

It's generally easier at airlines, you have solid procedures and can feel confident that you'll be back by your CP no matter what anyone says. It's way harder to deny a plane when it's just you, an impatient owner, a stuttering fuel pump and a 400 foot ceiling.

[-]

TRex_N_Truex@reddit

Last year I denied an aircraft for inop TCAS. Met with the FO, said "I don't like not having a TCAS". FO said "agreed".

The end

If the FO said "im good with flying without a TCAS"

I still was going to deny the aircraft.

If he didn't like that decisions, he can go upgrade.

The End again.

[-]

RavenholdIV@reddit

I read an ASRS report a week ago about a plane that was denied three times in a row. It was a small company so it was a significant fraction of the pilots. Company SOP was to just MEL the shit out of everything instead of fix it unless it was absolutely required. That didn't cut it for these flight crews who were given a plane with no AC in the middle of summer.

[-]

Altruistic-Cod1330@reddit

I’ve known pilots sent to retraining for denying a perfectly good airplane, and know of a check airman that lost his letter for refusing an airplane that should not have been refused. I think that’s a rare thing. If there’s a good reason, then it’s nothing.

[-]

legitSTINKYPINKY@reddit

Totally depends on the operation. Reliable 121 or 135? Literally not a second thought. Write it up and go to the hotel.

Sketchy 135? They’ll argue.

[-]

f1racer328@reddit

I've denied airplanes after a big mx issue, and also had an FO find us a better plane that wasn't doing anything.

At my current job we rarely have to do that, but we'll deny an APU-less airplane in the summer. However, our mx control is very good about not putting us in dumb situations.

[-]

-LordDarkHelmet-@reddit

Not exactly the same as your question, but when I was an FO we were on the last trip of the day and nearing our pumpkin time. 12 hours I think it was back then? Anyway clearance did not have our flight plan yet, so I told the captain and he called the company asking for it to be filled, along with a stern "this has to be done quickly or we time out." 5 or so minutes later I called clearance to see if they had it, they said no. Captain told me to not ask ATC again (because he wanted to time out). A few minutes later clearance calls me, and they say "if you give me the route you want I'll just file it for you." So I said ok and gave him the info and copied down the clearance. Captain goes ballistic and says "I already told you once not to call them, now we are going to go over 12 hours." To which I said "I'm just doing my job, if you want to pull the plug on the trip then do it, you're the captain." Instead he basically stopped talking to me, and we pushed back. During taxi he called up the flight attendant and complained about how we were going to go over 12 hours and that it was my fault. He talked very loudly in a way that was more meant for me to hear how pissed he was at me. And so the rest of the flight he didn't speak, I don't think he even called for a checklist item, he just pointed at the gear eventually. we ended up going 5 minutes over on the time, got our extended rest, met the next morning and he's still not talking to me. Luckily just one leg back home and the rotation was over. I was fairly new at the time and that was my first "conflict." I was kinda shocked at the time, he was acting like a 5 year old. I didn't escalate it or anything, just did my job and went home. Not sure it was worth it trying to engage in a conversation about his behavior so I let it go. I think back to that day sometimes and it's filed away as a "tell me about a time..." type story. So yeah, it happens. Luckily I never had to fly with him again. Few years later I moved on to another company. He's probably out there still grumpy at me

[-]

GeneratedUserHandle@reddit

You actually took a lot of liability by filing the flight plan yourself.

I would not have done that.

[-]

-LordDarkHelmet-@reddit

I can’t remember the exact details. I don’t think it was a full file, I think ATC said we needed a different route or something.

[-]

Aviator8989@reddit

I haven't had anyone behave that way but it would be an easy call to Pro Standards if I couldn't resolve it myself.

[-]

BrtFrkwr@reddit

I was captain and it wasn't for him to decide. It's for the pilot-in-command to judge the airworthiness of the airplane. In fact, when we got back I got an abject apology from the director of maintenance.

[-]

rFlyingTower@reddit

This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:

Just genuinely curious what the overall mood is after a CA or FO Denies a plane for safety reasons. Have you guys ever had the other pilot be upset or disagree with your decision and then have to deal with the other person be in a bad mood for the rest of the trip? I’m super far out from the airlines but the thought popped in my head the other day and am just wondering how that situation unfolds.

Please downvote this comment until it collapses.

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. If you have any questions, please contact the mods of this subreddit.