Teuken 7b Instruct if anyone is curious.
No it is not R1 equivalent. It's claim to fame was being small yet knowing 24 European languages. It has 7,000 huggingface downloads and slightly beats out Mistral 1 7b in multi lingual tasks.
I left Germany because we lost the plot over there.
There is a reason my German friends don’t even post on social anymore.
Started when the Polizei started confiscating electronic devices if you criticized certain things.
It’s not anecdotal, I have lived and operated businesses in both countries. It’s from experience and I can list specific examples.
What experiences are you basing your opinion on?
So when I gave this example, it was anecdotal?
You can’t even flip the bird to someone in Germany without breaking the law.
Thats how easy it is to get the authorities involved in Germany.
(Comparing free speech in both countries)
I can give many specific examples that retain to freedom of speech, freedom of movement, searches and seizures and more. It was what I studied when I first moved to the US, as the contrast was striking and very interesting to me.
> So when I gave this example, it was anecdotal?
**Yes**
That's **what anecdotal means**.
If I say «I vaccinated my kid and later my kid had pimples, therefore vaccines cause pimples», that's basing my argument on anecdotal evidence.
If I say «I created a careful study of 10 thousand kids, vaccinated half, didn't vaccinate the other half, and then polled them every 2 years for the next two decades over their skin health, here are the results», that's basing my argument on solid evidence.
Get it now?
But I’m not making that argument.
I’m comparing something quantifiable, and I’m quantifying it.
The solid evidence is:
US has the 1st amendment and constitutionally protected speech.
Germany does not.
And I listed a specific example:
Flipping the bird is illegal in only one country.
That’s not anecdotal, that’s a fact.
> But I’m not making that argument.
You are...
Is it the case that the same way you didn't know what anecdotal means, you don't know what an argument is?
Is english your second language maybe (not asking insultingly, it's my third language...)?
> I’m comparing something quantifiable, and I’m quantifying it.
Yeah, that's an argument...
You're making an argument for which place has the most freedom of speech.
And when you use your personal experience to support an argument, that's a logical fallacy.
> And I listed a specific example: Flipping the bird is illegal in only one country.
Listing specific laws is not anecdotal, but that's not what you were doing in the beginning of the conversation when we started talking about anecdotal evidence, you first mentionned specific laws in your last comment, way down the conversation.
You also seem to be confusing "freedom" and "freedom of expression", these are not the same thing, one is a subset of the other...
Honestly? Your argument is that everyone can say everything (wich, as we can each day see in the news isnt true either) and can hold guns and point their middlefinger at the police -> and this is your argument that its way better in the US?
I mean, looks like you are in the right place then....
It’s an example, to show the disparity, it’s not an argument. There is no question about this topic, the same freedom simply doesn’t exist there.
I never said free speech doesn’t come with consequences. (I.s. Defamation)
I understand the differences, and I can go much deeper.
I don’t expect you to be genuine about this however, as even when I show you how my comment was specific and based on a fact, you just move the goalpost.
You are quite defensiv - i didnt moved any goalpost, we didnt even argued yet. I was just responding to a comment from you.
From your comments in this thread, it seems beeing able to talk "free" without needing to think about consequences, aswell as having the "freedom" to be disrespectful to others (like flapping the bird to police) - is something you seem to value quite high.
Thats why i said that it seems you are in the right place then (as the us currently seem to be the perfect place for such preferences).
And why shouldnt i be genuine? Because we have different opinions? Nah, its fine to have different opinions, we are here to argue after all, are we? Or maybe you just want to have your free speech while you dont want to hear about opposing ideas?
I am basing this on my experience of living here but mostly facts of non profit organizations who‘s whole reason to exist to value this? You personal experience doesnt mean anything to me when you have nothing to back it up and is the text book definition of anecdotal evidence.
Yea i can see how you didn‘t fit into german society but feel good in the US. I get it now. Blessed are the ignorant one :) or as Mark Twain would say: „Mit dummen Leuten kann man nicht diskutieren.
Sie ziehen dich auf ihr Niveau und schlagen
dich dort mit ihrer Erfahrung.“
But has nothing to do with a discussion on free speech in America vs Germany. 😂
I’m over here like where did that come from? Unsolicited, it looks deranged.
It only looks deranged when you got no clue about politics. Because you know: the rules for free speech are, in every country, set by the government. And since trump is your president he is also part of the government. Did i really need to explain that?
I my country, the president doesn’t have control over free speech.
1A predates Trump by +200 years.
So how did he get into the conversation?b it sure wasn’t free speech topics. I’d guess because to you it’s some form of insult and a gotcha.
Go and turn on the TV or read up on News. Also maybe start learning a bit of recent history and you will stumble uppon the fact that he has more than 2 weeks as president. Glad you are now part of the problem in the US and not germany anymore. Bro seriously, we are done here, its like talking to a brick wall.
You’re going to have to be specific. I am paying attention, but there is more going on than any one person can reasonably consume.
So, what should I be looking at that involves Trump and the freedom of speech?
Again a statement that doesn‘t in any way shape or form attack the credibility of my source. You just said that as if its a fact without providing anything. I think i get it how trump became president lol. You guys talk so much but nothing you say has any substance. But you know what? I care way to much about that, i am not the one living in the US right now and thats all that matters to me lol. Bye
[https://www.nius.de/politik/news/hausdurchsuchung-wegen-retweet/180517b3-9bb1-4dc0-9139-ce76f49b760c](https://www.nius.de/politik/news/hausdurchsuchung-wegen-retweet/180517b3-9bb1-4dc0-9139-ce76f49b760c)
this was enough for a house search and confiscating all electronic devices, for reposting a meme
It’s not an anecdote to compare freedom of speech in us vs de and specifically point at “flipping the bird” or the manhunt in 2016 as an example of the disparity. Those examples are specific.
During the 2016 lockdown and manhunt all you had to do was criticize what was happening, you didn’t need to do something serious.
And I’m also old enough to remember Covid censorship. (Things that happened here as well, but were stopped due to 1a)
I had a long conversation with a German small business owner. The guy owned a small 'hotel' of about 6 rooms you could rent in the Bodensee area. Fortunately for me he spoke English.
He described that to start a business in Germany, you had to explain how the business would NOT reduce jobs (through competition) or else your license would be rejected.
That is an example of German over regulation, as it harms consumers if you aren't allowed to build something that could lower prices through less labor.
Just to make clear: I am not a fan of US cloud services. I think Europe should become much more sovereign, and not using OpenAI etc. EU can do more.
But: AI ist not lawless in the US. There are many laws also affecting AI services. Even without additional Regulatory Framework. Same in EU.
The EU AI Act is...well...in my experience one of the most useless, confusing and clueless regulations.
There are to many regulations to keep track off. So I am not sure if I am breaking a law or not.
Here is a small example list
AI used for social scoring (e.g., building risk profiles based on a person’s behavior).
AI that manipulates a person’s decisions subliminally or deceptively.
AI that exploits vulnerabilities like age, disability, or socioeconomic status.
AI that attempts to predict people committing crimes based on their appearance.
AI that uses biometrics to infer a person’s characteristics, like their sexual orientation.
AI that collects “real time” biometric data in public places for the purposes of law enforcement.
AI that tries to infer people’s emotions at work or school.
AI that creates — or expands — facial recognition databases by scraping images online or from security cameras.
If I have an AI and I ask how aggressive your comment is, is that breaking these things? It is hard to know what would considered to be illegal and what is not.
Are we at work or school and are you my teacher/boss? Like seriously do you think asking an llm how a text reads is a violation of this law? Cause quite clearly its meant to stop work place and school abuse via micromanaging. Like jesus christ think about the conseuqences of the actions
When it says at work, and you are at work when I did so, would that be considered breaking? Would you bet 5 million dollars on it? Because that is what it feels like for many small companies.
The user would be breaking no laws, the AI company would be the one breaking the law and the user is the victim of the “unsafe” AI model.
If I can get the silly translation model Germany created to do any of those things listed above I can complain to the EU and have the model censored even further or maybe even banned.
Sure - but what’s the alternatives? We know what happens when corporations are left to their own devices.
I prefer that companies need to spend more money on lawyers and experts and figuring out if what they are doing breaks the law or not.
We cannot trust corporations to do good.
What? It doesnt matter what you think is inteligent or not. Its incredibly easy to abuse computer vision alone. Like do you even understand that i am not talking about ai like the fucking terminator but i am talking about ai being used to create a surveliance state?
Same thought, what the hell do people do that any model is "too censored to be used for anything"?
The only issue we ever had was when dealing with Bodycam video transcripts with lots of swearing but for basically any typical Business Case, I've never had an issue
That's an interesting point, I can see this.
Although I threw some pretty bad swearing and murder descriptions at Claude and never complained.
Gemini was a bit funky because in one case it started complaining about the cops lol
You have no idea how often my coding tasks involve Tiananmen Square or holocaust denial.
Makes Chinese and German models totally unusable for me, unfortunately.
/s
> Same thought, what the hell do people do that any model is "too censored to be used for anything"?
Example from my work, the LLM is prompted to transform texts, if I give it a news article it works but if I give it a children story it refuses because of violence, the reality is that children stories are too violent for California , evil characters must not be punished by getting eaten by some creature or some violent mean.
I hope this makes it clear for you that not only ERP users complain about censorship.
P.S also I did not tested with soem news article that describes some violent crime, that also might trigger the fitlers.
It's not taboo to talk about. You aren't allowed to act like a nazi, so no Hitler salutes, no swastika flags etc, but talking about is fine to encouraged, except for stuff like denying the Holocaust.
Nonsense. I went to German schools for 12 years. What you're saying is bullshit. You were never exposed to history in a differentiated way at school. Hitler, Hitler, Hitler, but if you ask someone in Germany about Pol Pot, I have no idea, they didn't even teach you about the Cold War, apart from demonizing Hitler. (I'm not saying that the Nazis weren't devils!) But if everything revolves around one thing, it's obvious that you're manipulating your mind.
Sounds more like your specific history teacher wasn't that great. Yeah, I didn't learn about Pol Pot, because of course it's not all history you learn, you learn history that was important for Germany. This is the same for all countries afaIk. I learned about the cold war, fall of the wall etc. The rise of the third Reich and World war II are like one, maybe one and a half years.
It’s no taboo topic. That’s bullshit. Everyone brings it as negative example when political problems or history is discussed. It’s well known and part of a awareness culture.
> Yes they teach it but it is taboo to talk about it
Have you ever been to Germany or talked with a German person?
Because your knowledge about what is or isn't taboo in Germany seems to rely exclusively on a Fawlty Towers episode from the 1970s
It's not taboo to talk about. But what reason should one have to talk about that in everyday life? "Honey can you pass me the mustard, oh and I'm wondering if Hitler liked it as well or if he was more of a ketchup guy" doesn't happen.
Not true. Iam from neighboring country a descendant of VICTIMS of their atrocities yet they FORBID me to say anything about that leader of theirs. They want to shut people and forget they did all this in history.
Totally untrue. It’s reached and actively discussed as negative example. Most Germans are more aware of what is happening in the US right now than half of the US citizens. And it’s very actively discussed and compared. I never heard of anyone not allowed to speak about it. There will be another reason in your case.
Not really. They hide and ignore a lot of how he got into the position that he was. Like when the Bavarian state tried to kick to kick the criminal Austrian out of Germany, but the socialist party prevented it. We are right now repeating how he got into power, and the people who are "warning" us, are exactly the people repeating it.
> Not really. They hide and ignore a lot of how he got into the position that he was.
BROTHER, you have no idea what you are talking about. A massive effort in German schools is made to teach exactly that. It's THE topic in history class, it crops up in almost every single subject and in almost every single grade past elementary school. History, obviously, but also German class, religious studies, ethics, and art will have modules that teach about different aspects of it.
The German school systems have designed their curriculums with the express intention of "never again", and that necessitates teaching how and why the Nazis were able to rise to power and how they managed to use the arsenal of Democracy to turn the Weimar Republic into a fascist dictatorship.
Youre just blatantly lying now. The Bavarian govenment of the DNVP (nationalist party) refused to extradite Hitler to a federal court were he would have faced deportation. Instead a Hitler sympathizing bavarian judge was appointed for the trial who gave hitler an insanely light sentence of 5 years Jailtime. Even in the weimar republic that was considered a "Justizskandal".
The extradition of Hitler was DEMANDED by the socialist leaders but the Judge Georg Neithardt refused on te grounds that "Hitler served in the german armed forces in ww1" and he wanted to avoid damage to the "National spirit".
So yeah, why are you just blatantly making shit up?
>why are you just blatantly making shit up?
Why are you?
Here let the page translate by an AI or whatever and read for yourself.
https://www.welt.de/geschichte/zweiter-weltkrieg/article149328924/Die-SPD-verhinderte-beizeiten-Hitlers-Ausweisung.html
You only told half of the story. The half that seems to prove your point. Weird coincidence.
[https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georg\_Neithardt](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georg_Neithardt)
[https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler-Prozess](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler-Prozess)
teaching teenagers what their great grandparents did probably suppresses the idea for 95% and have the opposite effect for the non conforming 5%. Plenty of Germans still believe in their weird natural selection philosophy and obeying authority and rules blindly is still held as a virtue… I’m not sure that will add up to a good result.
While most people who criticize German censor are xenophobic nazis, there are also cases like Germany censoring people who criticize Israel (including Jews). By the way that brings Germany into an awkward situation now that they criticize Trump for his plans to cleanse Gaza from Palestinians.
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/germany-crackdown-israel-gaza-jewish-activist?utm_source=chatgpt.com
i actually think that's pretty based. Censor racists on both sides. That's cool i think. It forces people, regardless if they're pro israel or pro-palestine, to have to be good to each other.
This is what happens when digital overtakes analog-- People think replacing a 0 with a 1 is actually effective at changing the underlying architecture. The forces at play are still involved, and now we can't see them-- \*claps\* good.
Come on. At least lie about something convincing. Half of any news channel has been debates about AfD talking points for the last forever. It's not censored, if anything, you're overrepresented.
But you wouldn't know that, would you? Given you're Romanian.
No, I am telling you how Germany looks form the outside, and also pretty much everyone that lived there and I spoke with mentioned that. An progressive and incompetent China.
I dont speak German, but I speak English enough to see the debates in the UK and US. Unless you have the progressive arguments, you are the "evil istophobe" in those. There is only one "acceptable" answer, the progressive one, and this is the reason the morons at AfD are getting traction.
My constitutional court pulled an actual Supreme Soviet move with canceling the election because the wrong people won, with Europe clapping at an action that I am worries will give the far right an actual constitutional majority at the next election.
For the record Germany is quite well regarded here in the UK, he's talking out of his ass - we've also been dealing with lobotomites from the US smearing us with these same attack lines recently (thanks for that one Musk)
Yes and no. Censorship can be more complex than censoring the topic itself, you can censored the narrative, what is permissible to be said about the topic and so on. Because you also replied to the other post, I am writing the full reply there, with a bit more nuance and context.
> Censorship can be more complex than censoring the topic itself, you can censored the narrative, what is permissible to be said about the topic and so on.
Sure, there are things that have chilling effects on free speech, but considering the AfD's campaign platform includes a far-right identitarian euphemism for mass deportation of immigrants, and their descendants (including those with German citizenship), and their followers happily endorse that, that topic seems, unfortunately, very much permissible.
The social democrat chancellor Scholz made headlines last year talking about how we have to do "deportation on a grand scale", and even the Greens' chancellor candidate Habeck is talking about ways to reign in immigration and how to deal with criminal migrants.
If there's one topic that has dominated the German political landscape in the past few weeks and months, it's been migration. So I honestly don't know what the hell you are talking about.
No, the reason a ban is being discussed is because they are acting contrary to the constitution. Art. 21 (2) states:
> (2) Parteien, die nach ihren Zielen oder nach dem Verhalten ihrer Anhänger darauf ausgehen, die freiheitliche demokratische Grundordnung zu beeinträchtigen oder zu beseitigen oder den Bestand der Bundesrepublik Deutschland zu gefährden, sind verfassungswidrig.
In English:
> (2) Parties that, by reason of their aims or the behaviour of their adherents, seek to undermine or abolish the free democratic basic order or to endanger the existence of the Federal Republic of Germany shall be unconstitutional.
There is plenty of evidence that the AfD is not invested in the order established by the constitution, which is the "freiheitliche demokratische Grundordnung/free democratic basic order" mentioned here. Hence attempting to outlaw the party has nothing to do with immigration (legal or not), except insofar as the AfD advocates means or processes contrary to the constitution.
They only part where they want to go against the constitution is in making public votes where everyone can vote on topics rather than just every 4 years on parties or politicians.
While the currently ruling parties have made several laws that have been overruled or changed by the court overseeing the constitution. The current break in the ruling coalition also only happened because one party didn't agree to changing the laws about how much new debts the government is allowed to make.
As for immigration less than 1% are here due to constitutional rights. We already have laws against what's happening. We're just not enforcing them.
Strange then that courts keep ruling that their constitutent organs are violating the constitution...
> Das Landesamt für Verfassungsschutz in Sachsen hat die AfD im Freistaat als gesichert rechtsextremistisch eingestuft. Eine mehrjährige juristische Prüfung habe "unzweifelhaft" ergeben, dass der AfD-Landesverband "verfassungsfeindliche Ziele" verfolge, erklärte Verfassungsschutzpräsident Dirk-Martin Christian in Dresden. "An der rechtsextremistischen Ausrichtung der AfD Sachsen bestehen keine Zweifel mehr."
English:
> The State Office for the Protection of the Constitution in Saxony has designated the AfD in the Free State as certifiably right-wing extremist. Several years of legal scrutiny have “unequivocally” shown that the AfD state association pursues “goals hostile to the constitution”, explained Dirk-Martin Christian, President of the Office for the Protection of the Constitution, in Dresden. “There can no longer be any doubt about the right-wing extremist orientation of the AfD Saxony.”
The "Landesamt für Verfassungsschutz" is not a court it's a government institution and controlled by the ruling party. They also published this after the AFD scored too high in surveys, and they still refuse to elaborate and publish the reasons for their decision. They are accusing them of breaking the law without prove or even stating which law they are supposed to be breaking.
Incorrect. As an Amt it is lead by a Ministerialbeamter, not a politische Beamter, hence by an independent employee, not a politician.
The other stuff is just basic misinformation.
They are still controlled by the Innenminister. And they have asked to see the documents https://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/afd-gutachten-des-verfassungsschutze-afd-besteht-auf-einsicht-dpa.urn-newsml-dpa-com-20090101-240326-99-470849 a court case which they later lost. The only one spreading misinformation is you.
That's your assessment.
In reality it is not about laws being allowed in the scope of the German constitution. Supreme courts around the world often are asked to check on how well laws align with constitutions.
It is about being openly hostile to Germany's democratic system. Meaning that the AfD is actively working breaking the constitutional order.
As you do not understand the difference, you are unable to give an informed opinion on this.
The German elected representatives will decide if they will petition the supreme constitutional court for this.
The comment you were agreeing with was schooled so hard he deleted his comments. /u/yami_no_ko even brought the receipts. Maybe now is the time to rethink your biased worldview?
I kept the lol to make more obvious that I did not take that very seriously. Mostly laughing at it, with not much care put into it.
But, if you want a serious answer, is that western models in general had shown to have quite a left wing bias. I think the biggest, in you face example of this was Google Gemini, with how obviously politically aligned it was, to the point it was too obvious and overdone.
ChatGPT had that biases too, as admitted by Altman himself. This is one post I could find with minor googling:
[https://x.com/thehonestlypod/status/1651656528682971138?utm\_source=chatgpt.com](https://x.com/thehonestlypod/status/1651656528682971138?utm_source=chatgpt.com)
This actually made check the current state of AI censorship and bias, using the criticize Trump and Harris, and saying 10 evil thing white and black people did each, with Deepseek R1, ChatGPT and Gemini.
For Trump-Harris thing, all passed actually, either criticizing both or refusing to do it for both.
For the 10 evil things, surprisingly Gemini passed, refusing for both, ChatGPT failed, saying it only for white people, and R1 servers died, so tested it on the Qwen distill.
It failed miserably, but CoT is a damn interesting thing, especially when forced to explain itself. Lots of Critical Theory.
>Maybe now is the time to rethink your biased worldview?
I do it all the time, is the main reason I am not a progressive anymore.
I can even admit that the western models became less biased then they were, to my surprise.
Now, are you able to admit to the bias and censorship in it?
Reality has a well known left wing bias.
Also keep in mind the American left is considered a right wing party in the rest of the world so if the model is trained on global inputs what you perceive as bias is perhaps just a reflection of how far to the right of centre America is.
>Reality has a well known left wing bias.
If this was true, you would expect the right wing platform to be the censored ones against, not the other way around. WPT showed the opposite, by getting a mere 3 day ban for calls for murder and terrorism.
>what you perceive as bias is perhaps just a reflection of how far to the right of centre America is.
Most of the world would considers America insanely progressive. Most of the world is extremely intolerant. You have no idea just how homophobic most of the world is for example.
Unless you mean Western Europe, then yes, Western Europe is ultra progressive, America is just progressive.
That's all besides the point. OP made a specific claim, that they're censoring NYE 2015 stuff, which you agreed with. That turned out to be false, and so you were wrong.
All that other stuff is just smoke and mirrors, you're just coping. You were spreading misinformation not caring whether it is true or not, or knowing it is false. Facts don't care about your excuses.
>That's all besides the point. OP made a specific claim, that they're censoring NYE 2015 stuff, which you agreed with. That turned out to be false, and so you were wrong.
Yes, because I agreed with the general idea, and I wont go download a waste of space model just to test, when there is a history of censorship and bias.
>All that other stuff is just smoke and mirrors, you're just coping. You were spreading misinformation not caring whether it is true or not, or knowing it is false. Facts don't care about your excuses.
Yes, definitely, the historical and current bias are just a fragment of my imagination, the OpenAI CEO literally admitting to it is also a lie. Or Gemini outright refusing to show white people, to the point it made black Nazis, is clearly just a figment of my imagination and never happened. Oh silly me, I must have imagined all of that!
>Maybe now is the time to rethink your biased worldview?
You give some good advice, you should try it on yourself too! 👍
Again, all not the topic. You don't get to just substitute a different idea because you feel like it. This is a thread about a specific german model and whether it censors a specific event. All that other stuff, find a different thread where it fits.
>This is a thread about a specific german model and whether it censors a specific event.
Yesn't. As in I both agree and disagree. It is a thread about a joke of a declaration, a 7b model beating R1.
Now, about the accusation that it was censoring Cologne, I will assume it does not have the censorship, as I dont care enough to test it.
When there is a history of censorship for something, assuming that there is censorship again is not going from point A to N, but from M to N.
It is like someone who was condemned for killing 10 people, and is accused of killing the 11th. Technically, there is the presumption of innocence, but in any normal mind, it will be guilty until proven innocent.
This was the case here, there is a history of this happening, so it starts going from burden of proving guilt, to proving innocence. This is pretty much how Deepseek and Chinsese models in general were treated too, but about their specific Chinese censorship.
Nothing exists in a vacuum, and everything is connected and influences the things around it.
Was ein Schwachsinn. Or in English, that's some grade-A level bullshit. Do you not remember that that was all that the news could talk about for about a month straight? That "Eine Armlänge Abstand" became a meme of the inadequate response of the city government.
Of course you do, but you'd rather not talk about it, because it doesn't fit your narrative. Because the consensus wasn't to instantly remove every immigrant from Germany, somehow it's censored. Because some people dare to mention that many talking points of people in the aftermath of such Tragedies sound like Nazi instrumentalization.
The idea that these kind of events are not talked about or somehow censored is nonsense. So knock it off with your far-right victim complex.
>What happened on New years Eve 2015 in Cologne?
>On New Year's Eve 2015 in Cologne, Germany, there were several incidents of violence and sexual assault committed by individuals of North African or Middle Eastern descent against women. The attacks were widely publicized in the German media and led to a public outcry, with many calling for increased police presence and security measures to protect women in public spaces. The incidents prompted a massive demonstration in Cologne, with hundreds of thousands of people taking to the streets to demand better protection and justice for the victims. The attacks have been described as a "mass sexual assault" and a "humanitarian crisis" by some, and have sparked a national debate on immigration, integration, and security in Germany.</s>
(Teuken-7B-instruct-research-v0.4.Q8\_0.gguf)
Yeah, one of Germany's biggest news stories in recent history is purposefully censored... Maybe just maybe a 7B Parameter model isn't wikipedia and shouldn't be used as such?
Criticism for one, can’t even flip the bird to someone over there without it being a crime. (Not that I think you should, just don’t think you should get the Polizei after you for it)
Like I said, I’m not saying you should, I just dot. Think the government should arrest you over it.
And it was just an example of how easy it is to get the Polizei involved.
You can’t talk about many topics due to this.
Thats just straight up misinformation. The only topics that are illegal are: denying holocaust and everything the Nazis did and antisemitism. So if you got into a clash with the law for free speech you have either really fucked up opinions on those topics or you don’t understand that free speech doesn‘t mean you are free to harass others.
I find it’s really difficult to have these discussions with Germans, as many defend the censorship as reasonable. Many Germans don’t believe in free speech., and hence don’t feel violated when they are censored.
But the pivotal moment for me, and when I noticed many Germans stopped using social media, was the attack and subsequent manhunt in Germany that resulted in lockdowns. It was the 2016 attack in Munich by Ali David Sonboly, where 9 were killed and 36 injured.
People were locked into their homes for days, and many who shared information online had their electronic devices confiscated by the authorities.
That was broadcast widely and many Germans stopped using social that week, and never returned.
Well its difficult because you have nothing to back it up. You say the most outlandish stuff here and there is nothing more than a „trust me bro, listen to my story“ i‘ve never in my life experienced what you are describing even remotely and no one else i know has experienced this. So yea hard to believe if there is nothing more than a „trust me bro“
I live in germany which is the country you are talking about and have been around the world i other countries for extended periods of time so i would have noticed if there was something off in germany. As i said you provided nothing more than anecdotal evidence which is nothing that carries any weight.
Oh yeah, being a tourist for 2 weeks is just like living somewhere and having to deal with the actual bureaucracy.
There is nothing I can say that would convince or satisfy you. And I can’t fully blame you, as I used to defend my Germany as well.
There is a lot you could say. However anything that is source „Ma experience“ is worth nothing to me and everyone else who wants to have an objective look at our discussion. Problem is: there are no facts to back you up so you will have hard time finding anything thats not „muh Experience“. I ger that you wanna weasle out with a „there is nothing i could say…“ but i got a better excuse to end this discussion: i am happily living in germany rn, a country thats objectively more free than the US, and i dont have to worry about Musk or Trump. And since you also seem to be happy in the US right now we can end it just here.
What I get from that is not "we are as good as open ai".
What he's saying is that in the end creating an llm will be no issue at all.
Even if someone gets to their goal first youd always be able to get to the same point with a miniscule fraction of the effort the first guy needed to get their first.
It's essentially answering the question "will this race to agi ever be profitable?" To which the answer is "probably no".
In theory you coul achieve world domination with your agi ai super ai whatever. But unless you actively suppress everybody else - which wont be able and/or put real physical barriers towards ai development your AGI probably will have to pay of trillions and trillions of debt while the second guy has to pay of billions and the third guy probably neigh nothing.
You want an example of that? Look at what DeepSeek is doing.
Are there any good multilingual benchmarks? For my personal RAG chatbot I had the best experience with gemma 2 9b for German language, but that was trial and error with models of similar size.
Uff i work with the frauenhofer guys and this statement is just delusional...
The team working on the models is kind of to all over the place to many side projects etc. Bit to much red tape.
Generally though the research is cool for example about multilingual tokenizers or some findings about that partially re running the same data in training if it is high quality does help and how often you can do so before you overture a model etc.
And no one actually working on the project would say that the 7b is r1 equivalent.
These interviews are often done with higher-ups who have no actual clue about the research itself. The same happened at my institute where the head of institute agreed to an interview on a project he had nothing to do with except for signing it off based on administrative data (primarily, where the funding is coming from).
Maybe I did something wrong importing it into ollama, but its giving complete bull$hit.. showing they used pinterest and other websites to "train" it.. e.g. I asked it "tell me a joke" (in german) and it output me like what stupid stuff it crawled from pinterest
https://preview.redd.it/j6l8cmvrpdie1.png?width=1069&format=png&auto=webp&s=f2741129fcac562e28ed0c9cc750d0be29e78c80
Maybe don't quote one guy as Germany. Enough of us saw what Deepseek did and said "wow, it's possible to compete with the big ai companies. The EU should try and replicate this or even make it better. Big ideas can beat big compute. Thanks China" instead of this stupid take
Because copyright. Europe has extremely toxic IP laws, including GDPR. You're just not allowed to use data on the same scale as people elsewhere. You can look at Teuken-7B, which OP means. It's trained on a fraction of the data that other 7B models are trained on.
Next August, rules in the AI Act on General-Purpose-AI will start to apply. There are almost no open source models that comply. I don't see why anyone should bother jumping through the hoops for no reward at all. Worst case, you get fined for daring to offer your model in Europe.
Even if they wanted to, it might not be possible to make the model compliant, because the main demand is to train according to european copyright law.
That was a problem like a year ago. You could just rely on synthetic data. And to the jumping through the hoops part, because money. That's why all the big companies jump through hoops right now and still are extremely profitable.
That's the problem in these discussions. Whenever legal problems in Europe are pointed out, some people fall over themselves to dismiss them without any actual thought.
>That was a problem like a year ago. You could just rely on synthetic data.
Why do you believe that to be possible? Where would that data come from?
>And to the jumping through the hoops part, because money.
What money does Deepseek lose when its models can't be used for free in Europe?
OP was talking deepseek. You were talking deepseek. More precisely, I was talking about the open source model, rather than the service. I guess you don't know the difference.
The current wording of the AI act seems to indicate any model capable of the prohibited actions listed in the act would be banned. That would make any generalist model (like R1) illegal, since they have the capacity to be used in a manner contrary to the law. It is quite similar to banning hammers that could potentially be used to hurt people, and demanding people use toy hammers in their stead.
I think this is a misunderstanding of the text. They pretty much only ban certain usage, not ai that could potentially be used that way. So they don't allow murder with hammers, but you are allowed to use hammers that way
He needs to lie to secure research funding. Germany has nothing, absolutely nothing competitive in the field, just some hobby side projects of a few researchers riding the hype. If you try to get anywhere serious about AI in Germany the burocrats will hit you with laws, waiting times and regulations until you Google for "how to move to (insert any other country name here)"
At management level you have many people just playing bullshit bingo, especially in AI. But is it different in other countries? They are driven by the market and not by the reality. Seems like a „pretend you are on par or you are out“ speech.
This. 100%. "Delude yourself forward until you can't deny a technological trend's economic relevance anymore" is kind of the prevailing paradigm around here. Usually this turns into some sort of national-level fake-it-til-you-make-it approach, where 'making it' refers to optimizing the sh-t out of some arkane market niche. Whether or not 'AI' lends itself to this, remains to be seen. But at least it somewhat counteracts the stereotype of 'Ze Germans' not being good for a laugh every once in a while...;(
Yeah and the sort of dance you need to do when talking to a German (+Swiss especially) tech worker to politely ascertain if they're actually interested and knowledgeable in this area is difficult. So many consultants are pretending to be LLM experts right now.
Well, sort of. The 'API-level expert' phenomenon among the consultancy crowd is definitely a thing, but (in my personal experience) it is no more pronounced than in the US.
In the German-speaking world there's more of a split: You've got a lot of exceptional talent, who - by and large - have no idea of what it takes to productize a technology (or do not realize their research is never going to have any real-world impact unless they compromise on a few peculiar ideals). Then there's the academic 'senior management', i.e. the guy from the article. They usually just follow the trend as a matter of political opportunism, are generally ignorant about the current state of affairs and - often for idiosyncratic philosophical reasons - view 'AI' as just another inconsequential, ML-related hype cycle to be taken advantage of. The emergence of 'AI consultants' (read: semi-knowledgable grifters) is kind of unavoidable at this point, but those seem no more prevalent here than anywhere else in the world (ymmv though)...
Sure. However, those who even 'make it' to the business side of things are already part of a super small minority. The academic types I was primarily referring to are usually of the grant-chasing, institution-leading kind.
Man I'm so glad I left the consulting world behind me to build a real product - still in Switzerland but hey at least when I use the word AI I don't mean GPT-wrapper.
Could be badly misquoted, I could see a reporter taking a quote about a pre-R1 Deepseek language model perhaps from the end of last year.
I want to give some benefit of the doubt to Fraunhofer I think they were behind maintaining opensource MP3, MP4, AAC, etc codecs that everyone used for many years, that's where I recognise the name from.
So if Germany has nothing to hide when it comes to AI and this 7B is their top notch model. Let's not even think about keeping it in the same sentence as Deepseek R1.
I lived in this sultanate for 25 years and I didn’t have to learn how to send a letter, because last time you needed to send or receive a letter, it was 20th century. In Germanistan, I have to manage 20 letters per week. Our sultanate is 100 years ahead of your country of robots.
German startup/VC infrastructure surrounding Fraunhofer:
They get a government grant of 1-5 million
They build a website and call the project something like XY Research City
Politician gets photos taken for local newspaper
Then they write some 5 papers no one cares about.
the president of a publicly owned German organization is arguing their 7b model is as good as a Chinese 600b model developed by a private company.
am I living in a parallel universe?
That’s the man ”coordinating the re-structuring of the largest research organization in Europe in order to prepare it for the future“, everybody. He started at the job after the last president was caught red handed in straight up corruption in misuse of funds.
The new president is just delusional or straight up lying. But hey, at least he is not corrupt, like the last one that was forced to leave because of dubious handling of public funding.
Just a few more grants and a lot of committees everyone. We will eventually beat the Chinese models.
Let's form a committee to schedule the meets for the board to propose a grant structure for this to happen.
It's so sad, regulations kill the genuinely good innovation, remember Germany can do ai, Black Forest labs etc, it's just that our government is restarted and like 50 years behind
Every nation has the government it deserves.
Surely you know the German proverb?
And now I'm off to save the world and demonstrate with the grannies against the right. kek
You mean the USA, which allows people to say anything, or Germany, which has set up state reporting offices for statements that are not even punishable by law?
Who is closer to fascism? Kek
I am disappointed about all the snark in here. Shouldn't we discuss the model, instead of pushing stereotypes? I for one welcome another player doing open research.
You mean the model that performs worse than Llama 1 7b and is practically unusable thanks to extreme alignment because everything outside of radical wokeness is considered dangerous to the state?
I am German and I am ashamed of this model, of Fraunhofer and of this interview.
Clickbait. It’s a 7B model that has good multi-lingual support (for Europeans).
Fraunhofer do have some amazing tech but this isn’t it.
Wonder what happened to their free-standing holograms that you can interact with? Shame they didn’t see the light of day after initial demos at CES Germany over 10 years ago.
It just shows you how disconnected is business vs tech and open source in general, unless of course they know, but they are trying to push the idea to their centre-right readers some nefarious powers that be are pushing models. It's pretty clear to us, that good stuff floats to the top and shit sinks to the bottom.
He is right in the sense that R1 is everywhere in the media because it's Chinese. It's a tech topic that gets now abused for political propaganda (by both the China will destroy the world camp and the China is the best and will save the world camp). The ones who are here because of tech and open source will know that within time other models will learn from the R1 model and have similar or even better capabilities (the ones at Frauenhofer might do this as well). He might have said stupid things or maybe the article citates him in a misleading way.
this regulation that forces companies selling bottles to make the bottlecap hard to detach, for the environment.
It is not too bad to be fair, but it has become a meme like: US - doing progress, EU - regulating bottlecaps
If there is anyone in Germany that I would trust to do this, it is the Fraunhofer Society. I would advise everyone here to have a quick look at what they have done in the past.
oh wow I visited their HF page and found list of obscure models. Awesome!
Salamandra-7B-Instruct
Occiglot-7B-eu5-Instruct
Pharia-1-LLM-7B-C-A
Bloomz-7B1
Teuken-7B-instruct-research-v0.4
Don't you accuse us of not being good for joke ever again!
We're fully committed to never realizing that 'being a privacy-friendy, open data-based second best' means nobody is ever gonna know about our little academic toy project. The committee has spoken. ;)
Sincereley, Ze Germans
"why is everyone talking about that 671b model that reasons and innovated the whole sector when we have put out a 7b model that can speak European languages?"
What? Get the f. Out.
I had to check the date to make sure it's not April 1 yet.
If that's what our researchers are telling our politicians, no wonder Germany and Europe in general is stagnating.
It's feels like everyone is trying to pretend to be better than deepseek, just to benefit from their current popularity even if they are nowhere close.
I asked ChatGPT what it thought of this and…
>be German
>economy flatlining harder than Oktoberfest on a Monday
>“let’s pivot to AI, ja!”
>introduce “7-Berlin-Perimeter” model
>26 languages supported… mostly trained on English
>AI designed to make learning German feel like unlocking Skyrim achievements
>release open-source docs… in English, natürlich
>“Unsere Modell ist equivalent to DeepSeek!” cope to journalists (in English)
>Mississippi’s GDP like “Danke for the beer money”
>get ignored because nobody wants to deploy a model named after your capital’s traffic zones
>tfw Berlin perimeter includes Mississippi next year
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