> 5070 isn't beating a fucking 4080 lmao
A 3070 beat a 2080. A 4070 beat a 3080. The "5080" we got is a 5070, it should be priced like a 5070. There is nothing delusional about that.
> 5070 didn't come close to touching 4080 or 4080 Super
You're so close to getting what wrong with Blackwell. Did the 4070 come close to 3080? Did the 3070 come close to 2080? -> Yes! They even beat them.
That’s a really weird way to look at it.
The 5080 is a 5080 because of power consumption, not performance. It uses about the same power as a 80 level card. Calling it 5070 based on performance pattern would make no sense.
Also 5080 isn’t that much better than 4080s anyway. Using your pattern logic, it should be a “4080ti super” with dlss4.
5000 series cards are just bad in raw performance. Using previous gen patterns doesn’t work. 2070 super was around the same as 2080. But 4070 super comes nowhere close to 4080 non super
> The 5080 is a 5080 because of power consumption, not performance. It uses about the same power as a 80 level card.
I would agree but the 5090 is using 125W more than the 4090, so it doesn't surprise me that this "5070" would use 80W more than the 4070ti
> Also 5080 isn’t that much better than 4080s anyway. Using your pattern logic, it should be a “4080ti super” with dlss4.
That I agree with, it's either a previous gen xx80, or a new gen xx70, it can't be both xx80 unless this generation is exceptionally shit.
On the 90 level, they kinda just go crazy with power draw. It’s more so that it’s always the highest rather than a specific number.
70 level power draw is usually pretty tame. Always been around 150-200w. The 4070 even went down to 200w from 3070 being at 220w. 80 level is a different story since 3080 draws significantly more power than even 2080ti. 5080 being called 5070 would mean 160 watt power draw increase from 4070, maybe even more with overlock.
5000 series is probably gonna be just bad in raw performance. The selling point was dlss and frame gen. Because of how cheap 5070 will be, I doubt it’ll even top 4070ti in raw performance. Gap between even 5090 and 4090 is significantly smaller than between 4090 and 3090ti.
Yes, they’re saying that the 5080 should have actually been the 5070. They’re arguing that nVidia up-tiered every card so they could charge more for them.
This logic doesn’t track.
Even if they renamed 5080 to 5070 and charged it for 600 bucks, the power draw is still there.
Also the gap between 70 and 80 level has been constantly changing. 1070-1080 was maybe around 30%, 2070-2080 was like 20. 3070-3080 around 40, and 4070-4080 was almost 60%. The gap has been increasing to begin with, meaning 80 level is getting a lot better than 70 level, to the point where next gen 70 level might not top last gen 80 level.
4070 was about equal to 3080, and 3080ti beat it. While 3070 was nearly equal to 2080ti and smoked 2080.
5000 series is just bad in raw performance lol, it’s that simple.
You're looking at a pattern. Nvidia can price these cards at whatever arbitrary price they want. AMD also can't compete with whatever Nvidia is calling a 5080. If a 5080 has the chip size of a 5070, then that just means AMD can't compete with Nvidia's midrange offering, so we get cut down chips with the minimum amount of VRAM and the highest price Nvidia thinks the market will bear.
It has nothing to do with the marketplace and everything to do with the ai craze... and now with all the deepseek hoopla in China, you got literally thousands of bots deployed from behind the Chinese great firewall to immediately buy out all the gpus and then resell at double the msrp. Stupid
And what's even crazier? All these gpu's everyone is snatching up for ai is doing so largely for exploitation purposes.
Adaptive learning bot nets are literally everywhere now. It's stupid.
Heck I just read a new story about how yet ANOTHER roblox hack (roblox has been getting heavily hacked and hit for a few years now but in the past 4 months it reached absurd amounts....to the point that I'm baffled various governments haven't stepped in yet. We are talking about a hundred million+ dollar exploit/hack scene here.)
Essentially' using ai inference and learning, a bot net was discovered setting up discord webhook server pages for the roblox "Robux" hack.
Essentially the discord hack, which has been going for.like 2 years now... is where you create a discord server page. And then you make it look like an official roblox community or vendor page.. the pages state either they are a roblox store page or that they sell discounted robux to buy items in roblox...
These discord server store front pages require connecting your roblox account to discord (which is extremely standard. Nothing fishy. It's a normal process for store fronts on discord in Roblox community)
Once you connect your roblox account to the discord server, a hijacked or web hooked discord bot managing the page silently forwards all of that person's roblox account info and purchasing info direct to the hacker instantly (using a exploit within discords bot/server auth system... that apparently discord doesn't care enough about to fix)
And that was a huge ordeal when that started. Even children were able to do this. There are dozens of nationally aired news stories about kids are young as 13 doing this sort of hack.
However, now apparently, using ai inferencijg that apparently originated in China according to the exploit report, someone implemented all this into a bot net using ai. So instead of taking all the time to setup your hack store page on discord and setti g up the webhook/bot exploit...and then taking the time to phish/spam/promote your store page on discord throughput various communities (like discord, telegram, x, etc) in order to drive potential victims to you.....NOW the bot learns on the fly and does this all auto for you as many times as you want...
And then the REAL KICKER. This bot net, once the roblox account info is stolen... it also includes all the friends connected in roblox to that stolen account. So the bot collects contact info for the friends list and their roblox username and such and then targets THEM in the phsishing campaign as well! Some people even claimed getting messages from within the roblox ecosystem from what they claimed to be their friend...when really it was just a bot utilizing the newly stolen roblox account.
So doing all this it Essentially sets up a massive pipeline for non stop victim traffic.
They estimated this single bot net exploited upwards of $1 million.
And all of that us why the gpu market is going stupid crazy right now. It's hackers and exploiters, using exploits (bots) to buy more ai resources (gpu's) to perform even more sophisticated exploit schemes on a much larger scale.
Don't think there is a world where you can build a PCB that pumps 360w into a gpu these days, and still make a profit for $550.
Vega 64 was considered a disgustingly power hungry GPU at the time, and now you can look back on it thinking "Only 295w!?". I'm not sure Vega discrete cards were ever profitable for AMD.
We live in such world. And profitable not only per card, but for whole program too. BOM of 5080 should be about $300, after other parties take their part of $250 there should definitely be enough left for OK profit.
Profit for whole GPU program would be harder to achieve, but still should be doable thanks to massive market share Nvidia has. Back when there was intense competition in GPU space with both players having roughly half of market it was not unusual for graphics card to have MSRP roughly half of its BOM cost.
The die from TSMC with packaging is $150-$175 depending on which sources for wafer cost you believe. That's before Nvidia makes any money to recoup the hundreds of millions in engineering cost. Even if they go back to crap margins of $100 per die, that's $250-275 per GPU die to AIBs. You
The cost of memory for 16 GB of GDDR7 I can't imagine is under $4-5 per GB. Or up to $80 per card.
We're talking over $330 before AIBs even engineer the card, build the infrastructure, shipping, or create marketing and warranty support. Plastic and metal molds are very expensive. 100k for some of the ones in computer cases. Another $220 per GPU I don't think would even get them to be profitable. Then retailers want money as well. I don't think Microcenter wants to be paid $20 per GPU sold.
Nividias profit margins are 70 percent on the 5080 and 5090 gpus. Idk where you’re getting your info but it’s blatantly wrong. They build a 5080 gpu for well under 400 dollars and sell it for 1000. It’s really nothing short of criminal, they have some of the highest profit margins in the world.
Yeah, these numbers really put it in perspective. When you break down the actual manufacturing costs like this - $150+ just for the die, another $80 for GDDR7, plus all those tooling costs and molds - it's clearer why these cards end up costing what they do.
Ohh so now we are talking about 'want' to be paid? Companies make however much money they can get away with, if that is $20 per card, they will take it.
Yeah the 5090 and 5080 are just stupid expensive to make. I don't understand how people can look at that PCB and cooler and VRAM and not think the thing is going to cost an arm and a leg.
If Nvidia wanted to make a gaming card they could cut 50-75% of the cache, cut the GB202 memory bus to 384 bit, go back to GDDR6X and remove a bunch of other useless shit.
The stupidly expensive 2 slot coolers and PCBs required to make them work, GDDR7 and other gold plated solutions make it clear that Nvidia doesn't give a flying fuck about making the 5080/5090 cost effective, but care more about making them the fastest possible 2-slot cards so they can be used more easily in commercial settings.
Not a corner was cut on these things.
I liked High Yield's breakdown of the 5090. It's just absurdly fucking expensive for Nvidia to make. The die is fucking huge, the yields are thought to be pretty shit and the cooler is overengineered to the point of being super expensive, the PCB is overengineered to shit because of the cooler and GDDR7 is stupidly expensive.
The 5090 and 5080 are stupid expensive because Nvidia went for the huge bus, the super expensive GDDR7 and the 2-slot cooler. These design choices make little sense if you just want a cost effective gaming card, but make perfect sense if you want what is essentially an AI card that you can put 8 or 16 of in an AI rig for your company. Suddenly the 2 slot cooler and super expensive VRAM make sense.
The 5090 isn't designed primarily for gaming. If it was it would be a 384 bit card with GDDR6X or GDDR6 with a cheaper PCB and a cheaper cooler, with a bunch of "useless" hardware like the massive cache, encoding and decoding blocks removed.
Nvidia FE design are irrelevant. They are made to showcase what's possible and to anchor MSRP, number of those cards made will be extremely limited since Nvidia makes more by selling chips to AIBs.
5080 does not have huge bus, and clearly is not made for AI. 5090 is a bit big for pure gaming card, but it still is made primary for gaming. You want AI cards, Nvidia will happily sell you cards with hundreds of GB of vram. Megascalers like MS, META or AWS do not bother with cards like 5090.
Cache is not useless, IDK were you pick that up, but additional L2 cache is what enabled 192bit 4070 to perform at the level of 320bit 3080.
If you watch Youtube with your PC you need decoding blocks, and if you stream your gameplay you need encoding, those are not useless in any sense.
Nividia profit margin on there founders edition gpus hover around 70 percent. Thats ridiculous, literally predatory prices. Them and credit companies have higher profit margins than almost any other company in the world. There’s a ton of room to cut down prices on every single card and still make large profits , quit drinking the green tea.
The 5080/5090 FE PCB and cooler are thought to be absolutely disgustingly expensive, like several hundred dollars for the cooler and PCB.
If pricing is dictated by the FE cards I understand why the MSRP for both the 5080 and 5090 is so high. I just wish Nvidia would've gone for a cheaper PCB/cooler. I'd much rather have a 3 or 4 slot cooler that is "cheap", with a corresponding price cut than the additional cost of whatever the tiny PCB and fancy ass cooler on the 5080/5090.
AIBs say they are struggling to build them at MSRP, so it doesn't seem like their designs are much cheaper. But I do find it odd that Nvidia used the same cooler for the 5080 and 5090.
Adjusted for inflation, most 80 class gpus are ~7-800. So $899 would be fair, considering that 4nm silicon gpus are expensive and difficult to manufacture.
idk, back then you probably still could get enough vram on xx50 cards.
so if the "5060" has 8 GB and there is an 8 GB "5060 ti", then those would be far worse than the old 50 cards.
the old cards were slow, but often had enough vram for the time or at launch at least,
OR there was the option for the double vram version, which nvidia refuses to produce and for the one card, that they do, they massively overcharge to scam people harder.
so yeah kind of an insult to 50 series cards even and those were historically terrible value :D
Pretty sure they are using the GA206 die for both this time. So that was true last generation, with them using AD107 for the 4060, but it should be better spec wise this time. Price won't be much better, though.
Yeah, but evaluating all other dies by the reference to the biggest one doesn't seem right either. This 750mm² die we have now is just a replacement for former SLI setups. Which meant building two entire GPUs, without getting double the memory. Or the dual GPU setups that did fit into a single slot using 2 dies like 300mm² to 500mm² big. Similar amount of silicon, that was cheaper back then. GTX 690, GTX 590, etc. So the 90 tier was 2x the 80 tier then as well.
If Nvidia releases an RTX 6090 that is made out of 2 dies that are 400mm² next generation (2x RTX 6080), but instead of having them spread out in a SLI configuration on a board like they used to, they instead bridge them together like server chips, isn't that better? The 90 series being double the 80 wasn't that uncommon. The only 90 series that wasn't double was the 3090. Nvidia just stopped making an 80ti class. You now need to jump from an 80 series to the 90 which is equal too old SLI setups.
Yeah, that was a weird one. People complained about the $1200 price, though. And it started at $1000 and people were buying it anyways, and pushing demand, is what raised it to $1200.
If there was a 5080ti during this release at $1300 for something 30% faster than a 5080, would it really matter? We either to have casual gamers in the 5060ti and below section, really dedicated enthusiasts up to the 5080, or just incredibly spoiled rich people with deep pockets, or just poor people who don't care about credit card debit who buy a 5090. I feel like after $1000 no one gives a shit what they spend. Which is why you can be find people buying scalped cards for $5000 on eBay.
We have $200,000 sports cars, and $2,000,000 sports cars, with not that much in the middle. Either your pretty damn well off, like doctors, or you're a billionaire.
last time sub 70 series was good was pascal. they have practically made the 50 series, the 30 series, and the 60 series, the 50 series. they are so bad, even though they are at the bottom of the prices for nvidia, they are also at the bottom of perf/dollar metric, which is just insane for low end cards. they are taking "its expensive to be poor" to a whole new level. they want to punish people for not affording expensive gpus by giving them a piece of crap
Comparing anything to Pascal is unfair. It was an anomaly of a generation caused by AMD actually looking competitive.
The 2060 was actually a really good card in hindsight. RT cores, just a bit slower than a 1080 while taking less power. The 6gb of VRAM isn't good nowadays but you've got DLSS as a crutch to help out. It did bump the price since the 1060 which does bring it's marks down.
The 3060 was not nearly as big of a jump but it still had a good performance bump for the same price, while bumping VRAM and letting it match up with the 2070.
The 1060 is the odd one out here, since while it also had a much increased price over the 960, the performance out it just behind a 980 which had less VRAM and drew way less power than the 980.
In hindsight, Turing might have actually been a better generation than Pascal. Unfortunately it was marred by price hikes, a mediocre top end and the spectre of the 1080ti coming out for it's first haunt.
Personally Turing was really bad, because local exchange rates completely collapsed so the 50 dollar price hikes actually turned into a 2060 being double the price of a 1060. But taking exchange rates out, it was not a bad generation.
> the new 60 series are also at the bottom of perf/dollar metric,
The 4060 and 4060 ti had the best value in terms of fps per dollar from Nvidia's lineup and only the 4070 super which released later was able to beat them.
https://www.techspot.com/articles-info/2701/bench/Cost1-p.webp
> they are also at the bottom of perf/dollar metric
Ah yes, it's strange that the best bang for buck seems to be some middle of the pack card. (7800xt and 4070 super last gen, at least in my area)
Price/perf used to be more or less linear to a point, then went to shit.
Now it starts off pretty bad, then there's a gigantic price gap with nothing in it, followed by even worse value, and finally at roughly 2x the price of the entry level models you have your best value model.
Well ... at least games didn't get that much more demanding in the last 5 years, so the entry level cards should still be fine for a lot of people.
Here's hoping, I would like a 16GB 5060Ti I think. I found 4060Ti to be enough for my needs after all so I think a 16GB 60 tier card could last me a long time.
Here's hoping it works out, 5060Ti 16GB will be expensive no doubt but... maybe they'll do as they did with the rest of the stack and drop the expected price.
Unfortunately for everyone.
Going to be funny in a few years when it's PC gaming holding back tech rather than new consoles for no other reason than NVs monopoly.
Are you saying that in a few years not only new consoles launch, but all console developer will develope games exclusively for those new consoles with no cross-gen launches?
Console games are developed with 8 GB VRAM target. yes, they exeeed it sometimes. Especially if other memory isnt in such big demand. PS5 Pro has freed up 1.4GB of shared memory (by moving OS to seperate 2 GB chip).
Why wouldn't they? 4060 remains available to this day at normal prices, they either kept them in production or stockpiled a lot of them.
After the initial rush it's never a problem to get any model.
It's possible, they kept 3060 in production for a while (maybe still do, not sure) but I assumed that was easier when they were coming out of Samsung. 4060 is produced on the same process as 50 series I think but maybe it'll be kept around to fill in the low end.
This is the reason I’m switching to nvidia this generation. AI upscaling and ray tracing are only going to get more widely used and more efficient as time goes on. Having an RDNA 2/3 card (that isn’t the 7900 xtx) that will most likely be left in the dust while nvidia is supporting all the way back to RTX 20xx just doesn’t seem like a good decision to me.
I would be willing to sacrifice some RT performance because I don't spend enough money to be able to run full pathtracing anyway.
The upscaler is when rubber hits the road. I just can't stand FSR particle and character ghosting as well as the ugly occlusion fizzle. In general the picture doesn't look as good.
I don't expect them to reach DLLS4 Transformer Model fidelity, but FSR4 has to come within punching distance and all the artifacts that really stand out in FSR 3.1 have to be fixed.
If I get 25-33% more VRAM in that package as well, then we're cooking but the upscaler is non-negotiable.
I highly doubt they cut down GB206 that far for the 5060. It has 4608 CUDA cores in full configuration. That is 50% more than what the 4060 has.
Nvidia hasn't announced specs yet afaik. I would guess we probably see the Ti somewhere around 4300-4400~, and the normal 5060 somewhere in the med-upper 3k range. Then the full dies goes to 5070 mobile.
That would give the 5060 at the bare minimum around 15-20% performance over the 4060.
The 5060ti is only 5% more cuda cores over the 4060ti, it will likely be 5% faster which would put it 25% over the 4060. It wouldn't be plausible for the 5060 to be within 10% of the 5060ti, I would guess it to be 5-10% over the 4060. There's just no spacing in this tier to make the part $100-150 more expensive only be 10% faster. Or, NVIDIA puts 8gb 4060ti at 349 and 16 at 399.
Yes, and no. The GDDR7 benefits on the 5000 series mostly affects 4K native performance. The 5090 was on average 15-20% faster than the 4090 at 1440p native, but could jump all the way to 40-45% on 4K native Wukong. But, the 5060ti 8GB and the 5060 are only going to have 8GB of VRAM which is unacceptable for 4K native on modern games. Indiana Jones could exceed 16GB at 4K DLSS Quality. Besides, the 4060 and 4060ti lacked the raw performance to run at 4K native anyway. But, the 16GB 5060ti could be an unexpectedly good 4K DLSS card since it’s now somewhat sufficient capacity for new games.
I get the point but no, this should be tested at 4k for that kind of comparison to make sure CPU isn't a factor.
It's a bad release, there's no need to try to make it look worse, it did a fine job of that on it's own
It was mainly a response to that poster who pretended there wasn't single digit improvement (just like they pretend that the 4080 Super doesn't exist but that's another story).
The very screenshot you're responding to shows 4080 137fps - 5080 146fps average over 17 games.
That's 9 fps difference for 140 fps, that's still single digit percentage (6%-6.5%).
I'm not talking about that screen shot. Techpowerup which I've replaced Anantech with has it at 12% faster than the 4080 and DF also has it at over 10%. They aren't the only ones either.
5070 should be faster than the 4070 but slower than the super. The 5060 and 5060ti should be faster specially the 5060ti considering the bandwidth boost it's getting and how bandwidth starved the 4060ti was. Bigger question is pricing.
For all intents and purposes, the 4070Super *is* the 4070 for comparison's sake, when looking forward to RTX50. Comparing the non-super version is disingenuous, and ignoring new stock actually on the shelves during the transition.
If you look at that way then you must also look at the price difference. The 4070 is a $550 card, the 4070 super is a $600 card and the 5060 is a $550 card.
There's this rumor that AMD will launch RDNA4 the same time as the 9950X3D and 9900X3D, but I guarantee you this will not happen. AMD made a vow to never launch a CPU product the same time as a GPU product with Zen 2 and RDNA launching at the same time.
This time around, AMD will claim GPU sales were bad because customer were (again) confused between 9000 series CPUs and 9000 series GPUs.
the core count of laptop sku is miserable so basically beside the increased memory bandwidth which is substantial, you are not really getting. Frame gen was not very usable on 4060. It did not even double framerates either. Memory issues have only got worse since. Yes, you should lower settings with cards like these but 8GB VRAM is already minimum for a lot of games, so you are treading on lowest settings when the cards are brand new day 1. It is just not going to last much so it is money down the drain. 5060 is likely similar in performance to B580 in performance too if we assume a generous 20% uplift.
The card sells well no matter how hard they gimp it, if I were Nvidia I would do the same thing tbh. If it sells, why change anything? You just have to applaud those wise enough to get the B580
There’s a ~30% performance gap between the 5070 and 4060ti and 20% between the 4060 and 4060ti. Here’s hoping NVIDIA graciously provides us with a 20% performance uplift on the 5060 and 5060ti!
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