Netherlands vs Switzerland
Posted by aSliceOfHam2@reddit | expats | View on Reddit | 62 comments
My partner and I are both canadians. We just had a baby boy, and we are planning on moving to Europe. My partner also has romanian citizenship. We have been looking around, and decided that netherlands or switzerland are the best choices for us. I wanted to ask for everyone's opinion on where to move.
Switzerland:
Pros:
- Wealthy country, doesn't seem to be bothered by the general immigration/immigrant politics/problems that the rest of EU is bothered by.
- Good social security. While being expensive, healthcare insurance is unavoidable one way or another in any country. Swiss healthcare system seems to be working just fine.
- Good child benefits. Monthly allowance for children is quite high. Education seems to be free
- More neutral, in case things go south in Europe, Switzerland may get less affected
- Not euro zone
- Language. We both speak French. My partner also speaks Italian.
Cons:
- I read on lots of forums that integrating into switzerland is not the easiest. The local population, while being friendly, does not go the "extra mile" to help others
- I have no idea about the cultural scene (music, art, events). This is of course not really a con, but I listed it as a con
- High cost of living
- High taxes
- We don't know anyone
- While healthcare system is good, the monthly mandatory minimum insurance payment is not nothing (approximately 300 CHF)
Netherlands:
Pros:
- Bikes
- We have friends
- Good tax benefits for newcomers. We would end up paying taxes on 70% of our salaries.
- Good child benefits
- According to some, friendlier than the swiss
- Lots of international people
Cons:
- The current anti-immigration rhetoric seems to be strong in Netherlands
- Euro zone
- Weather (gray)
- Language
If we were to move to Switzerland we both would be looking into getting the citizenship. If we were to move to the Netherlands, only I would be looking into getting the citizenship. In either case, the citizenship routes are very similar. Since we are both Canadian, getting the permanent residency is about 5 years in Switzerland, which I think is similar to the Netherlands. I did not look into it in detail, but getting the citizenship after PR does not seem to be too bad in Switzerland.
Primary-Path4202@reddit
Certain things about NL are consensus (bad weather, bad food), others are more nuanced:
I consider the Dutch to be the Americans of Europe - open to small talk, easy to make superficial connections with. Building friendships is as difficult as anywhere in Europe, but ask yourself - why would you want to be friends with a local, who’s never moved towns, let alone countries, in their life? The Swiss are much more closed and inclined to berating others.
In this context, CH feels much more provincial and musty. NL is modern and, culturally, about a decade ahead of CH - this can be both good and bad.
You absolutely don’t need to learn Dutch. The English proficiency in NL is unparalleled and extends to bureaucracy. Noted that you speak French, so this point is irrelevant for CH.
NL is highly digitised and the bureaucracy is incredibly low touch and fast. You’ll be assisted in English and with a smile. I’ve never seen anything like that in other countries. You’ll spend much more time dealing with matters in CH.
This is a sensitive topic for Reddit and highly dependent on political views. The anti-immigrant sentiment in NL is directed against the country’s Muslim community and incoming Muslim refugees. NL may not have the ghettos of French banlieues and not get the same level of press coverage as Sweden (or even Montreal for that matter), however the country is grappling with a massive violence issue coming from these groups. There are nightly explosions across the country that no longer even make local news. The streets are full of sketchy characters looking for trouble - largely Muslim juveniles well aware of their protected minority status. There is minimal policing and very little law enforcement. CH is far more safe and NL will feel like the 3rd world in comparison.
NL has been a pioneer in encouraging high-skilled migration, so none of that sentiment applies to you. Keep in mind, though, that the expat tax regime is a pawn in the country’s politics and gets changed retroactively every year. As things stand now, the tax discount has been reduced to 27% and caps out at around 240k pa per person.
Healthcare in NL can be very efficient. Keep in mind that the many bad reviews circulating online largely come from Eastern European migrants, who are used to an entirely different healthcare culture and experience shock when faced with the Northern European healthcare minimalism. That said, you can’t buy your way to better access - unlike in CH, you’ll be reliant on what’s effectively a nationalised healthcare system (even though it’s technically private).
Parts of NL are very dirty. This has mostly to do with litter but also the grubby nature of food establishments. Amsterdam is probably the dirtiest city in Europe in terms of litter. Public transport is often disgusting and people behave like savages. CH is the total opposite.
The biking culture in NL is amazing but you need to view it in the context of weather - it’s not the game changer it’s made out to be because it rains most days.
Driving in NL is far more aggressive than in CH.
Don’t be spooked by the reports regarding the NL housing crisis - it only exists up to a certain price point. If you’re a high earner, you won’t have any issues. I also find NL is one of the few European countries with the good housing quality and strong emphasis on interior design (similar to Denmark). CH housing is very bland and often excessively constrained (no air conditioning allowed etc).
Reyisepic116@reddit
Nobody I know actually avoids riding a bike in the rain, its not something to look forward to but i have gotten so used to it i really dont care
Particular-System324@reddit
Has CH managed to avoid the low quality Muslim "refugees" that the NL has? Or do they also have them but with better policing / law enforcement?
mionel_lessi32@reddit
Sorry for my question but, Why would you leave Canada? Isn't quality of life better than those countries or quite similar?
aSliceOfHam2@reddit (OP)
It has gotten significantly worse. The lifestyle is also not really what we want. After all, it is a North American country and has North American traits. For example, suburbia, car centric life. Aside from some neighborhoods in Montreal and maybe Quebec City, you are pretty much stuck where you are without a car. Public transportation has gotten quite bad over the years. Railway transportation is quite under developed throughout Canada. Taxes are very high (40% approximately) and what you get in return is very mediocre. Healthcare system pretty much collapsed. Housing market is ridiculous. Daily expenses, groceries and what not, have gone through the roof. Government is incredibly slow. Canadian dollar has lost a lot of value and will probably lose quite a bit more considering how the government is planning on responding to the tariffs applied by the states.
Given all these reasons, we feel trapped. Social mobility is decreasing day by day; which is the case for a lot of places at the moment, but there are better options than Canada I feel.
This all being said, grass is always greener. So we may end up finding ourselves in a not so different situation.
mionel_lessi32@reddit
I can relate with you my country is also going through a big degradation and I'm moving to Australia in march.
Being a canadian citizen don't you have facilities to move to the US?
aSliceOfHam2@reddit (OP)
The way things are going at the moment US is out of the question for me. I want stronger social security, US is the opposite of that. In terms of life style, US is even more car centric than Canada. Work culture is not pleasant either. Overall I would not want to live in the states.
mionel_lessi32@reddit
Europe and Oceania are the best choices
Reyisepic116@reddit
RN yes
modijk@reddit
The housing, daily expenses and taxes situation is not any better in CH or NL...do you have job offers in either country yet?
aSliceOfHam2@reddit (OP)
My job thankfully allows mobility and in both countries they can sponsor employees. My partner has her own job.
MocroBorsato_@reddit
Honestly as a Dutch person I could say that I also have a feeling of "the grass is always greener" in NL. Reasons for me are the housing crisis, bad weather, populists that have power but can't manage to do shit, the farming industry and the pollution it brings and honestly the lack of nature, animals and places to actually be alone.
phibber@reddit
It depends where you plan on living in each country. Parts of Switzerland (like Geneva and Zurich) are very cosmopolitan with big expat communities where you’ll find friends. The smaller towns are not. There is also a big difference between the German speaking cantons and the others. Geneva, Vaud and Valais, for example, see themselves as European, and are quite outward looking. The German cantons are more isolationist and inward looking.
Two other factors for you:
The food. Dutch food is godawful. There are, of course, great restaurants in the big cities, but for the most part the Dutch give the impression that they don’t care about eating well. Swiss food is simple, but fantastic, especially in the French and Italian speaking cantons.
The lifestyle. The Swiss are very focused on an outdoors life. Shops are shut in the evening and on Sundays, and people leave the cities to go to the mountains or out on the lakes. That means that cities like Geneva can feel empty, but it’s because people are hiking, biking or skiing in nature. It’s why they are the thinnest people in Europe, despite eating the most cheese and chocolate. Life in the Netherlands is more urban.
The attitude. The Swiss are a private people who like things to be precise, in control and rules-based. They will call the police on a neighbor who mows the lawn on a Sunday, for example. The upside of this is that everything works - public transport is phenomenal and civic life overall is very efficient. The Dutch are more relaxed, informal and gregarious - look at Dutch houses with no curtains on their ground floor windows. They don’t think you should hide away from society.
The politics. The stereotype would tell you that the Dutch are liberal, and the Swiss are conservative. The truth is more nuanced. Both countries have a big hard-right political movement, focused on immigration. From a daily life perspective, I think the biggest difference is the attitude to women’s place in society. The Swiss still have a view that women should be at home with the kids. The tax regime punishes dual earners (though taxes are pretty low overall) and the local schools send the kids home for lunch, assuming someone will be there. The Dutch have a more egalitarian view.
The landscape. Switzerland is just staggeringly beautiful. Even the cities are a stone’s throw from stunning mountains. The Netherlands has much more interesting architecture, but the landscape is rather… flat.
I think both are good choices. Ideally, you should spend a few months in each, to get a smell of the place before making a decision.
Reyisepic116@reddit
Hé, Niet mijn broodje kaas beledigen. Dat is niet zo aardig toch?
While the food is not the best it isn't the worst, it isn't something I am looking forward to with all my heart. It does incentivize you to either go to a restaurant or make something yourself, the latter is great. But it isn't the good for some.
demostenes_arm@reddit
Netherlands “anti-immigrant” sentiment is not the same as USA anti-immigrant sentiment. Not saying it’s any better, but it’s heavily geared towards non-white immigrants, particularly muslims.
I never heard anyone saying that Dutch are “friendly” people, but it’s not that are “unfriendly” either. It’s more like they tend to be stoic people who don’t see the point of having too many friends, making too much money, putting too much seasoning in their food, etc. Not idea about how Canadians are in comparison.
Particular-System324@reddit
Basically against anyone who's brown that came as a legal / skilled immigrant or are we talking about asylum seekers?
Fit_Caterpillar9732@reddit
There’s nothing “illegal” about seeking asylum. Have you ever heard of the concept “solidarity”? If you’re an immigrant, you might want to show some to others.
Imgayforpectorals@reddit
Solidarity? I think we have different definitions of solidarity. If stats on sexual assault and overall criminal rate increases: I don't think it's solidarity for YOUR people. Look what is happening in the UK or Sweden.
Particular-System324@reddit
The right to asylum, especially with the way it is being abused as a way of illicit migration by millions (knowing that obsolete laws and activist "judges" are on their side), is outdated nonsense and should not be recognized anymore.
No, no "solidarity" with the endless population of the Islamic and African third world. Not interested, but thanks for asking. I fully understand why native citizens are fed up with this asylum shit.
I do show solidarity to my fellow LEGAL immigrants, not unwanted asylum seekers (refugees my ass lol). Putting myself in the same boat as them only diminishes my argument and standing. You can't do anything about the racists anyway, the best thing one can do is clearly distinguish legal / skilled immigration from illegals screaming for asylum, for the vast majority of native citizen voters who are not racist.
beerouttaplasticcups@reddit
I didn’t want to say it, but you’re exactly right in the first paragraph. OP and her husband are from a wealthy western country, and if they are both white (unknown), they will be seen as the “right” kind of immigrants, even by right wingers. I know this from as expat in Denmark who fits those criteria myself. I’m not saying I approve, but that’s the reality on the ground. And honestly it’s the same in the U.S. When American right wingers are attacking immigration, they are not taking about expats from Switzerland or the Netherlands.
No-Tip3654@reddit
It's not easier to integrate in Switzerland than in the netherlands socially I believe (been in Switzerland for 2.5 years now and lived in north-west germany for over a decade before that)
The weather might be slightly better in Switzerland, only slightly though.
Childcare may be more affordable in the netherlands (maybe).
Parental leave may be more extensive and your workload may be less extensive in comparison to Switzerland.
Otherwise Switzerland fucks the netherlands in every other metric royally.
• You got lower taxes and higher salaries • you got a health care system that is (at least in my case) more affordable (than what I used to pay in Germany in terms of % of my salary) and wayyy more efficient. • You got direct democracy (not that EU garbage that the netherlands have) • you got more affordable electricity/energy supply, well maintained roads, great public transport and overall infrastructure • you got mountains, lakes etc. - swiss natural scenery ain't comparable to the the dutch flatlands. • the retirement money goes most likely farther than its EU equivalents.
If I were you, I'd go for Switzerland in the longterm if only these two options are available. Just maybe smart it out with the child aspect. Maybe live in the netherlands first, have parental leave, less expensive childcare and once the child is 4 years old, come to Switzerland and entroll it in kindergarden, school etc . But you could also live on one salary if it's 100-150k a year. You can also live from less than that but I think 100-150k is enough for 2 adults and one kid.
Particular-System324@reddit
Is the Swiss public pension system doing better than the German DRV?
No-Tip3654@reddit
100%
MocroBorsato_@reddit
If you say Switzerland fucks over netherlands royally and then say that "you got well maintained roads, great public transport and overall infrastructure" then I advise you not to mix The Netherlands with Germany lol.
No-Tip3654@reddit
I know that the netherlands have better paved roads and (probably) more punctual public transport than Germany but I was still assuming that dutch infrastructure is not on par with swiss infrastructure.
MocroBorsato_@reddit
I'm not sure because honestly I haven't been to Switzerland but comparing the public transport of NL to Germany, the public transport is way more punctual in NL, modern and better connected (also the more rural areas). Around 30-40% of busses in the country are electric . Roads are very well maintained, if I go on the Autobahn in Germany it seems like you're just passing a construction site every 20 minutes. Out of all nearby countries I went to like UK, France, Germany, Belgium I would say Netherlands easily wins in terms of maintenance and infrastructure.
NL has many bike lanes, once I cycled from Amsterdam to my hometown (next to German border) which takes like 100km, and I was pretty much always on a cycle lane. It doesn't feel unsafe at all. However if I cross the border to Germany the cycle lanes suddenly end and everyone is driving their car. Rules also accommodate for this huge amount of bikers. Bikers almost always have higher priority (e.g. have right of way) than other road users. We have the biggest and second biggest bike parkings of the world.
Again I haven't been to Switzerland (did watch some videos) but saying that Switzerland royally fucks The Netherlands over infrastructure seems like an overstatement. If you replaced The Netherlands to Germany I would probably agree.
TheJinxieNL@reddit
I just want to say that your username is great. It's VERY funny 😄😄😄😄😄😄😄
No-Tip3654@reddit
Yeah my bad.
Buscuitknees@reddit
Childcare is not affordable in the Netherlands. My son is in full time daycare at €2800 per month. You get some money back depending on your salary- in our case we get €700 off of that and pay €2100. For reference that’s €400 more than we paid in the US and Singapore. Of course we are lucky to have high salaries, but this is a big issue for all people here and part of why so many women don’t work full time
No-Tip3654@reddit
Jesus, almost 3k a month with dutch salaries. That's abyssmal. So childcare is more affordable in Switzerland I guess
aSliceOfHam2@reddit (OP)
Jesus that is expensive
l-isqof@reddit
yup. this one is painful in NL. it's worse than my mortgage...
Host_Horror@reddit
Honestly with kids - Switzerland. Especially since you speak French.
I personally love NL but I love it because I love my single urban lifestyle. I’m guessing with a new born that access to a great bar scene and english improv classes isn’t high on your list of priorities (these are things that matter to me).
I previously lived in Luxembourg (which is similar to CH in many ways) and I hated it because I was bored by the lack of fun urban activities but I had a family I would have stayed there without a shadow of a doubt. It’s ultimately safer, with better healthcare access, higher salaries, more career opportunities better nature. The hassles of the Netherlands like the housing market would just be so much worse with a family.
One thing I do think you need to be aware of is - in both counties unless you live in a very urban area, you will need to drive. In Switzerland you will absolutely have to drive. Not everywhere but you will have to drive.
PoolSnark@reddit
With the Romanian citizenship of your spouse, living in Netherlands is achievable. Getting Swiss citizenship is TOUGH!
ibhunipo@reddit
Have lived in both countries
Switzerland scores over the Netherlands in two aspects, disposable income about 10-15 percent higher, and if you're into outdoors activities.
For bureaucracy and ease of establishing a social life if not speaking the language, the Netherlands is better.
As an English speaker, raising a child in the Netherlands is way easier.
Finding jobs where English is sufficient is also much easier in the Netherlands.
theexpatstandard@reddit
With a fresh baby boy, having friends nearby will go a long, long, long way when living abroad.
aSliceOfHam2@reddit (OP)
that is very true, and really the reason why I'm considering netherlands along with switzerland
Greyzer@reddit
You missed a major con for he Netherland: There's a huge housing crisis at the moment, and renting without a high paying job will be neigh impossible.
T-Lecom@reddit
The whole world is going through that. People in, say, Berlin or Portugal complain just as much.
hudibrastic@reddit
Europe is not the whole world
jwtorres@reddit
I will add people in Medellin, Mexico City, Singapore, Tokyo, Seoul, Bangkok complain about housing costs. It truly is a global issue.
hudibrastic@reddit
Nah, Tokyo is way more affordable
The other ones have high cost, but not completely lack of availability like in most big cities in Europe… in places like Berlin and Amsterdam even if you want to pay extra there's simply not available
So no, the issue is not global
Buscuitknees@reddit
There’s a housing inventory crisis in Australia, Canada, and the desirable parts of the US. It is absolutely global. And yes, in the other places the OP mentions there’s housing issues- they may have different causes and affect people differently, but it doesn’t discount the fact that people in countries all over the world are struggling to afford housing
leblebimix@reddit
Add İstanbul too
carnivorousdrew@reddit
Switzerland has less than 30% home ownership rate.
l-isqof@reddit
I think they do have a high paying job, from reading between the lines.
It may still be difficult though...
Yoplet67@reddit
Genuinely curious about how being in the Euro zone is a con
aSliceOfHam2@reddit (OP)
My logic is this, there are lots of countries using the euro with different productivity levels. Using a single currency inherently couples these countries to each other. Having control over your currency I think comes in useful. Considering CHF is a strong currency, it gives Switzerland a good leverage.
gftl13@reddit
On the language front Netherlands: you will be fine with English Switzerland: need at least one of the local languages
Sagarret@reddit
The Netherlands house crisis + the wealth tax was a huge NO for me.
jwtorres@reddit
There is no wealth tax. Are you talking about box 3? It is essentially a capital gains tax and has been deemed unconstitutional.
gftl13@reddit
And they still plan to tax inrealized gains...
carltanzler@reddit
Keep in mind that you would then need to give up your Canadian citizenship. NL does not allow holding on to your previous citizenship when naturalizing unless you're married to a Dutch spouse.
Otherwise-Coyote6950@reddit
Definitely Switzerland and it's not even close.
juQuatrano@reddit
Living in the Netherlands for 7 years. The language is terrible and very difficult, but in many jobs you don't really need Dutch.
As other people mentioned, finding a home to rent or buy is very difficult and extremely stressful.
Weather sucks, coming from Italy for me has been and it still is very hard, winter is very cold and dark and seems like it lasts forever, summer is very short but also amazing.
Living with a bike is amazing but only if you actually live in Amsterdam or close to your job, otherwise you will have to take public transport which is pretty good imo.
Daycare and school quality is ok, but at least in Amsterdam there is a huge waiting list to get your baby into daycare. For us, we have 3 days a week the baby in the daycare and there is no space for increasing to 4 or even 5 days in daycare. Also daycare is very very expensive :(
Work ethic in the Netherlands is amazing compared to Italy, I think the Netherlands is one of the best places to work in EU.
Dutch people are ok, they won't be your friend but they will always be polite and correct towards you.
Making friends is not the same for everybody, for us, we have a huge Italian community and making (Italian) friends has been quite easy. I also made some other (not Italian) friends at work and we see each other quite often. But I know plenty of people that had and have a very hard time making friends.
Economic wise, the Netherlands like any other country in Europe is having some hard times, salaries don't go up, and prices of basic things are sky rocketing.
The sentiment toward foreigners is big not in the bigger cities as far as I could see, Amsterdam is very open and chill.
Tax are high but as high as in other eu countries, if you get the 30% ruling those are gonna be the best 5 years of your life.
Btw we are thinking of moving to Switzerland in the future for many reasons, but we love the NL. Probably the winter blues is getting too much for us and we are not sure if it is sustainable for us in the long run.
Good luck
boxesofcats@reddit
Both good options. My preference is Switzerland since you have kids.
Just note that Switzerland has its political problems too.
generalmelchett2@reddit
Regarding the Netherlands:
"The current anti-immigration rhetoric seems to be strong in Netherlands"
This anti-immigration rhetoric is pointed at unskilled people from different religions coming to NL seeking social security, not at skilled people that share our values like Canadians.
"Language"
You'll find that 95% of people here have no issue speaking English as we are, as you stated a international oriented country. Both Dutch and English are germanic languages and from what I understood, Dutch is one of the easier languages to learn for people that have English as their native language.
Keep in mind regarding NL:
Thanks to terrible monetary policy worldwide, and an insane amount of regulations regarding building new homes, we have a massive housing crisis.
SeanBourne@reddit
The one thing I'll point out where you are off - Swiss taxes are quite low/reasonable (there's a range, but even the highest tax cantons top out in the low 20s... and the lowest tax cantons I try not to think about in public). They are the one country in the developed world lower than the US. Compared to Canada, you'll feel like you are paying very little, and I'd imagine it's better than the NL will be even with the provisions for newcomers. (Plus that only lasts for so long.)
Additionally salaries in Switzerland are going to be considerably higher than the Netherlands.
The couple of things that are obviously subjective: while the Swiss are quite insular, the Dutch are going to seem quite rude coming from Canada. Dutch culture is very direct and they tend to take a while to truly open up, if ever. This may not really be much of a plus point for the NL so much as a 'push'.
The last item I'll mention is a YMMV aspect. You note the higher cost of healthcare in Switzerland. What I'd counterbalance that with is the quality and timeliness of delivery. I think a lot of expats get hung up on just 'free healthcare' without considering quality/timeliness... which makes sense if you are super young and super healthy and really only need it in bad cases. If you're a bit older and/or have a family, I'd prioritize 'what you get'.
The two systems in Europe that I'd say actually deliver are Switzerland's and France's. Food for thought.
aSliceOfHam2@reddit (OP)
Thank you. One of my main concerns, which I think I forgot to mention above, is making friends. I have already gone through the immigration process to become canadian. I spent 13 years in montreal and a couple years ago I got my citizenship. My french is not bad, but I still struggled making Quebecois friends. Almost all my friends are other expats. I don't necessarily want to live through that again, but what switzerland offers is very enticing as well. I know social integration is partly up to the individual, but I have heard about difficulty of making friends being mentioned a lot about switzerland.
ClassicOk7872@reddit
In both countries, your son will probably integrate in a few years, but you and your wife won't. Neither the Netherlands nor Switzerland are immigration-friendly countries such as Canada or the US. You will always be considered the foreigner, and outside of the expat bubble, you won't make any local friends.
No-Tip3654@reddit
You can make local friends there are openminded dutch men out there. It's just challeging on average.
FishFeet500@reddit
We’re canadians who moved to NL with our then 6 yr old son.
We’re applying for our citizenship stuff by end of year.
The weather: no worse than canada, TBH. Think a slightly soggier vancouver. Its really not ( well, last week aside, with 9 days of deeeeep fog), that bad. Housing issues: like every place at the moment, people act like it’s just NL alone but so far as we’ve seen, its a fairly consistent issue in one flavor or another everywhere. Just be open to the reality that you don’t HAVE to live in the centre of amsterdam, or well, amsterdam at all. We looked at what was a popular outlying city and went the other direction. Now my city’s going through a bit of a housing boom, at least.
I haven’t had issues making friends here, i have a solid social group but i also believe a lot of expats roll in and expect to make lifelong besties on one meet up alone and that’s not how it works anywhere. I don’t find the dutch “rude”, they’re certainly more forthright than canadians and that can take getting used to but no saying you can’t be forthright right back. I prefer the forthrightness, honestly. It might get me punched if i ever returned to canada, however.
To make friends: the dutch do love organized social interest groups. find yours. Show up, often. We forget the names of the people who show up once or twice and vanish. People need time to get to know you. I don’t think this is any different than canada however.
Alternately, if french is one of your second languages, Brussels might be an option.